1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,160 You're listening to Weird and Dead, the paleontology podcast 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,600 that tells evolutions most embarrassing and bizarre 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:11,640 stories. I'm Megan Wetherell. 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,800 And I'm Amy Atwater, and we're two living scientists who are 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,800 weirdly excited about dead things. 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,760 Would you vote for your state fossil to be the giant Beaver? 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,560 Well, if you live in Minnesota, you might have the chance to do 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,200 just that. Be feminist. 9 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,120 Vote giant Beaver. We'll also dip South and visit a 10 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,400 controversial yet deeply dumb argument that ultimately is just 11 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,920 body shaming a long dead capybara. 12 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,520 Like always, our episodes are not for kids unless you want 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,840 them to know a lot of slang for vaginas. 14 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,000 Please check the content warnings and assume that we will 15 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,160 always make the most obvious dirty joke. 16 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:56,760 You're welcome. Oh, Rodents of Unusual size is 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:02,000 what we're talking about today. I have a fun anecdote for us to 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,160 talk about. So this fall, the Society of 19 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:10,120 Vertebrate Paleontology meeting was in Minneapolis, MN. 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,440 Oh yeah. The thing is, if you hadn't told 21 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,440 me that Minneapolis was in Minnesota, I would not have 22 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,200 known which. I mean, I only, I only like 23 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,600 forgive that because of confusing things like Kansas 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:29,480 City, KS and Kansas City, MO. So otherwise it's Minneapolis, 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,080 yeah. That is fair. 26 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,520 That's really dumb. Like it gives it away in the 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:35,680 name. I don't. 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:37,600 OK, all right, whatever. We're moving. 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,960 On whatever, whatever. So the meeting was there. 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,440 Cool. I almost said Wisconsin stuff 31 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,280 JK. And I was talking to this 32 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,040 student I used to work with who is from Minnesota, and he was 33 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,640 telling me about the process of the state trying to adopt A 34 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:58,480 state fossil and how everyone, OK, they had a vote in 2021 and 35 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,760 the giant Beaver won the vote by a landslide. 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,040 No one surprised. No one surprised, but that it's 37 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,840 like taking a while for it to actually go into effect because 38 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,040 there's some controversy around it being the state fossil 39 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,520 because it's a giant Beaver and it's a joke and some people are 40 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,880 not into it. And also because the official 41 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,280 name is Castroides, Ohio Ensis, and they're like, well, what the 42 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,680 fuck? It's not a we're Minnesota. 43 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,200 I don't want some Ohio motherfucker up in here. 44 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,880 Well, I feel like First off, you're reclaiming Ohio bullshit. 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,040 You know, like you're, you're taking it from them and that's 46 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,360 gotta mean something. And also it's feminist to have a 47 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,040 giant Beaver as your state foster. 48 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,600 Yeah, yeah. You love Beaver. 49 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,800 That is so great in this day and age. 50 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,160 Like we support Beavers. The giant, the better. 51 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,000 Big brown Beaver. Yes. 52 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,840 Big brown floppy Beaver. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 53 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,800 So that. And apparently, apparently back 54 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,440 in like 1988, they also pushed to make Castroides the state 55 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,360 fossil, and it never made it through the legislation for 56 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,720 these like exact reasons. But now, like literally in the 57 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,040 last two months, they have been at the different blah, blah, 58 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,280 blah state government things. And they're all these pictures 59 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,640 of this guy from the Science Museum in Minnesota, where the 60 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:25,600 opening night was for. SVP is it Alex Hastings? 61 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,160 Yeah, yeah, OK. I've seen his some of his Tik 62 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,280 toks talking about the giant Beaver that's. 63 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:31,880 Awesome. Yeah. 64 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:34,760 Yeah. Well, there's a lot of pictures 65 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,480 of him holding a giant Beaver. Many giant Beavers. 66 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,960 So many giant Beavers. Like he's the giant Beaver guy. 67 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,880 He is the. He's the Beaver collector. 68 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,680 Yeah, I'm sure he. Oh, God, like, right. 69 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,160 And so, yeah, I found a few Reddit threads because I was 70 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,560 trying desperately to find, like, a record of someone being 71 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,680 like, this is it Like we don't want to be called slang for 72 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,840 woman's vagina? So I couldn't. 73 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,840 But I did find some Reddit posts that were all just like, yeah, 74 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,600 of course I voted for the giant Beaver. 75 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,280 Why would I vote for? Anything else? 76 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Yeah. But do you want to hear the 77 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,080 other contenders? The other contenders were the 78 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,400 one that came in second was Bison Antiquis, and then we also 79 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,000 had like some bellumite, A stromatolite. 80 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,160 That's what I would have voted for. 81 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,840 Some shark teeth, trilobite, Saber toothed cat, croc, 82 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:26,200 relative thing, Colombian mammoth. 83 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,840 That's basic, guys. A lot of states already have 84 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:28,560 that one. Yeah. 85 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,040 And so those were the contenders. 86 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,480 And the giant Beaver, Castroides, Ohio Ensis 1. 87 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,840 And it is still like up in the air if it's going to actually be 88 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,360 officially added to the list of state things because every state 89 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,800 has like a state bird and a state flower and a state Beaver. 90 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,200 Listen, listen. You just have to think of it as 91 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,320 it's only going to come up when people are talking about your 92 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,840 state, which means that it is tourism potential. 93 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:04,760 Think of all of the dumb jokey tourist things you could do with 94 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,360 Giant Beaver as a T-shirt. You got to get that marketing 95 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,920 money, Minnesota. I I went to Wisconsin, the wrong 96 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:14,760 state. Nope. 97 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,160 I'm sorry I gave you so much shit. 98 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,640 I went to Minnesota and all I got was this giant Beaver. 99 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,320 Right. Like, there's just so many. 100 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,280 Yeah, no. And a lot of pop culture jokes, 101 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:30,720 you know, like, nice Beaver. Anyway, so it is still up in the 102 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,480 air. But man, Alex is definitely 103 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,360 doing fighting the good fight for giant hairy Beavers 104 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,400 everywhere. I mean, they were really hairy. 105 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,840 OK, so let's talk a little bit about the giant Beaver, which is 106 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:48,080 found across North America, including in our state of 107 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:49,800 Oregon. That's where I first learned 108 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,000 about it. Yeah. 109 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,920 And then there's like one species that's pretty much 110 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,160 across the entire North America. And then there's a species 111 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,320 that's only in the southern part. 112 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,680 So the most recent paper I found on it said that the mass 113 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:07,120 estimates are about 60 to 100 kilograms, which I actually I 114 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,880 actually like the I. Google. 115 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:14,080 OK actually in pounds that's 132 to 220 lbs. 116 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,560 So we are talking as all of the different propaganda for vote 117 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,800 for my giant Beaver is always like a bear sized Beaver and I'm 118 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:21,840 like. That's hot. 119 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:25,600 That's a skinny bear. That is a thin, underweight 120 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,680 bear. I saw a black bear in Texas and 121 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,080 that was the smallest bear I've ever seen, so I think that. 122 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,760 Yeah, it's as big as a bear from Texas. 123 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,600 I would also like to point out to the Science Museum of soda on 124 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,720 your Castroides Ohio and says giant Beaver page that you 125 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:47,160 spelled Castroides incorrectly. Just FYI, it's like a title. 126 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,240 It's in big font, it's bold and you added in caster I so it's 127 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:57,560 caster Rio iodies anyway FYI. Okay, so it was a big old 128 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,320 Beaver. I had actually a bit of a hard 129 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,280 time finding anything that was, I really wanted them to be like 130 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:06,920 embracing the joke. But they are serious scientists 131 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:08,680 and they didn't. So they wrote their papers like 132 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,400 normal boring papers. So the one that I liked the best 133 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,000 opened with the giant Beaver. The largest rodent of the North 134 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,120 American Pleistocene is surrounded by controversy. 135 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,080 OK. Why are we all so fucking 136 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,320 dramatic? My God. 137 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,560 I know, surrounded by controversy. 138 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,920 Controversy. No guys, it's a dead fucking 139 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,320 Beaver. It's been dead for 10,000 years. 140 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,640 Katy Perry going to space. And I was like, what 141 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,920 controversy? It's a, it's just a like super 142 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,520 sized Beaver. Apparently it's not just a super 143 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,760 sized Beaver. So the whole thing is about it's 144 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,440 not the exciting, it's not like should this be our state fossil? 145 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,960 It's about if they should, if they actually were just like 146 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,600 modern Beavers and do the same things that modern Beavers did 147 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,760 or if they were different types of Beavers and were and lived a 148 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,160 different Beaver life. Like that's the controversy. 149 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,120 That was it. It also. 150 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,200 Enjoyed that this one had lots of good nicknames for the giant 151 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,040 Beaver, including swamp rats and large clumsy water hog. 152 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,160 So thank you for that. I was like, yeah. 153 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,720 Why don't you use that as your state fossil name? 154 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,560 You're not the giant Beavers, you're large, clumsy water hog. 155 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,320 I just enjoy how many different animals get like wrapped into 156 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,000 the the comparison. Yeah, I wanted even more. 157 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,919 I big hairy bear. I don't know, Barry. 158 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:38,400 No. Bill Platypus? 159 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,039 Yeah. Yes, but that's that's for the 160 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:43,799 controversy. Megan, thank you. 161 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:47,840 Beautiful transition because the platypus has like Paddley tail. 162 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:48,800 Right. Yeah. 163 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,880 So they, it's not known, it's not thought that this Beaver had 164 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:57,000 a flat paddle tail like that. It had more of like a Nutria rat 165 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,880 tail kind of thing going. On back. 166 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,800 There because the conclusion that I read from a bunch of 167 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,080 different papers, the the most recent of which was all about 168 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,640 stable isotopes from both the bones of the fossils as well as 169 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,880 like comparing it to plants. And that it is that they weren't 170 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,200 like normal Beaver, today's Beavers. 171 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,960 They were so different and instead these ones were a lot 172 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,120 more aquatic and we're not as terrestrial at all. 173 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,800 And again, I love this. It reminded me of the ankylosaur 174 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,080 paper because it was like the short limbs and bulky body of 175 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,960 Castroidis made it poorly adapted to a life spent 176 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,800 predominantly on land. And it must have relied on 177 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,800 access to the water for shelter from from terrestrial predators. 178 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,040 And I'm like, again, we are just like looking, we got these 179 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,720 animals that body shaving that we're like look at their dumb, 180 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,360 dumb bodies. They couldn't have done that. 181 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,120 How did they migrate? You know, how did they get from 182 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,680 .8? I guess if they're in the waters 183 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:55,840 like water slide. Rivers, they can only go One 184 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,280 Direction, actually just downriver. 185 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,240 Right, so. That's why they went extinct. 186 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,160 They got to the ocean and they died. 187 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:06,760 That's not. How watershed works. 188 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,440 Yeah, it is. It's super funny. 189 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:15,480 So in terms of the like what you would look at. 190 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,160 So it didn't necessarily have a flat tail and it had hind limbs 191 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,800 that were much shorter than in modern Beavers. 192 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,960 And the tail was also longer. So again, that's why they call 193 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,560 it these like again, like clumsy. 194 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,560 I love this. Animals being called clumsy 195 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:36,920 water hogs. Clumsy water hog with its dumb, 196 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,760 bulky body that was so worthless on land. 197 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,400 So they also point out that the teeth are a little bit larger as 198 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,280 well. And they have those striations 199 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,040 in them like they're, they've got the. 200 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,120 I don't know what the actual anatomy term for that is. 201 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,920 Whereas modern Beavers are nice and smooth enamel. 202 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,480 Yeah. So they did determine that by 203 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,280 looking at isotopes and some of these bones that the giant 204 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,520 Beaver could handle cold tolerant stuff because it was 205 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,720 found in the Yukon in Alaska. We did it isotopes to tell us 206 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,120 that. Yeah, right. 207 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,520 I know. It's like the it's like the 208 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,320 darkling beetle, the DNA darkling beetle. 209 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,400 Yeah. So they did think that it is 210 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,360 more of like a wetlands, predominantly marsh and shallow 211 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,600 lakes environment and that it did not construct its habitat by 212 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,800 constructing dams and it did not chew down trees like modern 213 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,160 Beavers do. And they think that it went 214 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:38,000 extinct because this wetlands, swamp, lake situation like was 215 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,520 less and less with climate change. 216 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,120 And I wrote, so it's a sex legs situation. 217 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,880 Yeah, it sounds like sex legs, but for walking. 218 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:46,960 Yeah. And so that's, I mean, those are 219 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,000 those are kind of the highlights of it, I guess. 220 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,400 I mean, yeah, they died about 10,000 years ago. 221 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,120 There is some evidence that they interacted with early humans, 222 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,480 legend and folklore, which is really cool kind of paleo 223 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,160 heritage situation. But yeah, I also just left with 224 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,960 some questions, like, OK, if so, they have these giant incisors 225 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,160 like a Beaver does. If they're not chewing on logs 226 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,040 and they're just eating water plants like a nutria freak, what 227 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,440 a nutria do to keep their incisors short? 228 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,560 Aren't they ever growing? So how would this motherfucker 229 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:20,160 not like just how would they deal with their ever growing 230 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,520 incisors if they're not, you know, getting that wood? 231 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:28,840 Nothing a shy Beaver like. I wonder if so like all rodents 232 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,520 have ever growing teeth, right? Like that's kind of like their 233 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,600 their jam. But I mean, that doesn't mean 234 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,760 that they all grow at the same rate, right? 235 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,960 Like maybe they just had slow ever growing teeth. 236 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,880 Well but it makes me think about the semi aquatic or fully 237 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,440 aquatic ones today. Like nutria like water and their 238 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,040 teeth are gross. Theirs are like the like they're 239 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,360 like red incisors. Yeah, they're. 240 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,560 Icky. So I just, I'm I was like, OK, 241 00:12:58,560 --> 00:12:59,840 cool. I like the data. 242 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,240 I like the end to the controversy. 243 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:03,600 Wow. I was really worried. 244 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:09,680 I was like losing sleep. I was so concerned with this. 245 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,000 Yes, yes, yeah. But those are yeah. 246 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,640 Those are my fun facts about the hopefully soon to be state 247 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,560 fossil of Minnesota. You should embrace it and 248 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:22,160 embrace your giant. Beef. 249 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,840 Yeah, just I I love the giant Beaver. 250 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:32,600 I'm so sad that I have not yet found a giant Beaver or actually 251 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,720 found a sloth on my own at any of these places. 252 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,360 Seen sites that I keep getting roped into. 253 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,080 So I don't think any giant Beavers have been found in 254 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,920 Washington state yet. So fingers crossed one day. 255 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,960 When will weather out? On the list, but they yeah they 256 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,440 should be there hypothetically. I mean maybe your sex lakes went 257 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,160 around like went out earlier, but that's The thing is like 258 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,440 they were in Oregon and Oregon is still pretty swampy and 259 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,920 marshy and wet moist. So I am kind of like, but there 260 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:03,280 is some, you know, again, it could have been hunting as well 261 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,520 related because all of the mythologies are like and then we 262 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,360 haunted it and. Slaughtered it. 263 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,360 So OK, not all of them, but that was the general vibe is kill it. 264 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:14,680 So maybe we just killed them all. 265 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,200 I mean, I don't know what regular Beaver tastes like, but 266 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,920 like, we do hunt them for their fur or we have for their fur. 267 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,360 So yeah. Do we have any like mummified 268 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,640 castoroides or do we just have bones? 269 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,320 No, we just have. But I mean enough. 270 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,440 I guess we wouldn't argue about the tail if we had mummified 271 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,200 Castoroides, right? Yeah, and that one of the cool 272 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,720 things about the specimen from Minnesota, that was also funny 273 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,520 because it was like in a little cave, like underneath, like an 274 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,120 undercut, and then it collapsed on it. 275 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:51,880 So I also why I'm just like, yeah, it's like it's a. 276 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,320 Dark cave for your Beaver. But one of the things that 277 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,120 spelunking for giant. Beaver. 278 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,240 Yes. Gave face lesbianism. 279 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,080 I have been listening to a lot of Chapel lately. 280 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,200 So embrace your giant Beaver. That's what I'm saying. 281 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,960 Big Beaver clam I'm. Going to keep dig into the. 282 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,400 We played that SVP and I was like, what is this? 283 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,840 Element. So I'm old. 284 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,880 It took me a while to get there. Oh, anyway, it was in this kind 285 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,880 of karst environment, so a lot of limestone. 286 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,160 So it was about like 12,000 years old. 287 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,480 So it had kind of this like calcified rind on it. 288 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,320 Like it was partially stalagmited and stalagtite 289 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,200 mited. Yeah. 290 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,760 And that's how it was able to preserve so well. 291 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,320 And they were super excited in this peeper peeper and this 292 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,520 paper because the other specimens of Castroides up until 293 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,920 this point, which is in like the 60s were mostly just like the 294 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,920 axial skeletons. So like backbone and skull and 295 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,920 whatnot and maybe some isolated incisors. 296 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,320 And this one, the whole paper is like it has feet, feet 297 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,880 especially in consideration to the feet. 298 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,000 And I'm like, oh, this got this giant Beaver is on only fans 299 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,600 with some big ass feet. Like it was just so funny. 300 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,160 It was like the whole thing. I think if I had searched feet 301 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,640 it was like 20 times and like. Wow. 302 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,440 Look at its feet. So it was cool because it 303 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,360 preserved not the axial skeleton. 304 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,920 So like just the just the arms and feet in the skull. 305 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,960 And I'm like, that's weird. How do you do that? 306 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,800 So interesting preservation, cool place to seen things. 307 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,760 I should have said that yes, in addition to being about £200, 308 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,840 they could have been about 7 feet long. 309 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,400 And the whole time I was thinking about the classes that 310 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,360 we took together about reconstructing body size and 311 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,200 what we've discussed. And I think that's what. 312 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:55,480 Oh my God, yeah, one more content and you don't want to 313 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,080 wait. Or maybe you don't want to hear 314 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,080 ads like this. Well, head on over to our 315 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,200 Patreon for exclusive content, early ad free episodes, and so 316 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,319 much more. For only $5 a month, you can 317 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:08,319 hear outtakes, exclusive episodes, and the stuff we cut 318 00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:12,119 for time, and also the stuff we cut because it was just too much 319 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,760 for the general public. Looking for fresh fashion with a 320 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,079 science twist? Make sure to check out Geopedal 321 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:20,880 Fabric, Megan's clothing company. 322 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,040 These geek shake designs look fantastic and make for excellent 323 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,280 conversation starters. Plus, get 10% off using code 324 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,280 Weird and dead. Head on over to 325 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:34,560 geopedalfabric.com now. Yeah, Let me tell you a little 326 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,360 bit about Joseph Artagasia, which I do feel like maybe you 327 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,360 gave me that one in part because it was the harder one to say and 328 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:44,800 you didn't want to learn how to pronounce it, and I just 329 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,320 refused. So I it might not be that, and I 330 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:49,520 don't care. You're on to me. 331 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,440 Yeah. So Joseph Artagasia is the 332 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,360 biggest rodent of all time, the largest extinct rodent. 333 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,240 When they say that they are talking specifically about 334 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,800 Joseph Artagasia Monesi because there are two species. 335 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,920 Except First off, first controversy. 336 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,320 Fucking are there fucking are there? 337 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,440 Cuz that's always my thing, right? 338 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:17,200 Any species I don't know. OK so so these two I say species 339 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:25,120 2 specimens. 2 specimens. Oh Oh well, now I see why you 340 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,120 are so. Angry. 341 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:33,680 So in the 1960s they find a loose jaw of Joseph Joseph 342 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:34,760 Ardigasi. I think they had called it 343 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,080 fucking major. Which is hilarious because it's 344 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,000 the smaller 1. Is that what it's called? 345 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,520 Whatever, I don't care, it's not Joseph Joseph Ardigasi. 346 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,560 I'm Anesi. So in the 60s they find this in 347 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:52,840 Uruguay on the the beach rolled out just a loose jaw of a big 348 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:59,080 capybara like animal. And I can't read Spanish and was 349 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,880 too lazy to translate it so. But I did notice that in the 350 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,680 headline that they really emphasized the fact that it is 351 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,880 big, which is the only thing anyone cares about with Joseph 352 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,280 Sobartigasias that it's fucking big. 353 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,480 So they find this jaw. The other thing that I I saw 354 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,760 that is translated from Wikipedia, so like there's a 355 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,760 little bit of a game of telephone in addition to a 356 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,560 language barrier there, so take this with a grain of salt, is 357 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,880 that apparently it's a partial jaw and it's missing the M3, the 358 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,640 third molar, and it looks like it actually rotted out of the 359 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,640 jaw. So like so it wasn't. 360 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,120 All their molars look exactly the same. 361 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,040 OK, that's probably wrong. But all rodent to me pretty much 362 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,040 exactly the. Same to me. 363 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,000 I am just like, look at those squiggles, OK? 364 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,480 Yeah, squiggly, squiggly, long, ever growing things. 365 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,040 You have this old jaw. They decided that it came from 366 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,320 the San Jose, I think it's San Jose formation, because that's 367 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,320 nearby, but it was just a loose jaw sitting on the beach. 368 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,680 Then cut to 2000 and 8:00-ish. That's when they published it at 369 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,000 least. OK, that tracks. 370 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,960 Find a skull in a boulder on the same beach. 371 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,360 So it's in a boulder, so it's not part of the formation, but 372 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:15,840 at least there's enough rock there that they can definitely 373 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,320 say it's the San Jose formation. Compare it. 374 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,360 And these just in the species description, they just say it's 375 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,840 a different species because it's so much bigger and I ran out of 376 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,040 time, but I don't know how much bigger it is. 377 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,560 And I don't know that I maybe it just had a small jaw, guys. 378 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,960 Maybe it just had a big fathead and a small jaw. 379 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,840 It just had a little hillbilly jaw. 380 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,160 Yeah. Anyway, yeah. 381 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:40,160 Yeah. Sorry. 382 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,960 So yeah, JD Vance. Yeah. 383 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:51,760 So we've got like a skull and a jaw of apparently 2 vastly 384 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,280 different sizes that are found in the same beach. 385 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,720 OK. From the same formation. 386 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,680 So that's all of the specimens I think that we currently have of 387 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,920 this big, big rodent. So, OK, great. 388 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:06,600 Awesome. Yeah. 389 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,040 So really setting us up for a great amount of success. 390 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,840 What we do know and what everyone agrees with is that 391 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:19,000 these are a they're not in the same family as capybara's, but 392 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,960 they're kind of capybara esque. They're cavea morph so they all 393 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,320 kind of look capybara shaped. They which is right, just a. 394 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,040 Yeah, it's just a big It's gonna. 395 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,720 Look like it's that. It's just a big rodent with like 396 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,080 kind of unsettlingly small feet for the size of its head. 397 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:39,480 That's what I think of when I think of capybaras is those feet 398 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,200 should be bigger. Yeah, why is it all about the 399 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,600 feet? These fucking weirdos. 400 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,920 Fucking Cap Amor. Well, yeah. 401 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,800 Yeah, but it's not, it's not in the same family. 402 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:55,200 It's the only living member of that family is called a Pakirana 403 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:02,200 and Pakiranas. They let me find the Wikipedia 404 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,000 quote for them. It was so sad. 405 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,680 Was it large, clumsy water hog? It's even kind of kind of worse, 406 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,640 honestly. Here is the description of 407 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:20,200 Pakuranas from Wikipedia, noted resource Wikipedia. 408 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,520 It has, you know, like an overview of Pakurana's, which is 409 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,520 basically like, they look kind of like capybaras, but they have 410 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:28,840 stripes and maybe they're in trees. 411 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,720 And here is what it said in Characteristics. 412 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,920 I'm gonna read you the full characteristics. 413 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:38,560 Are you ready? But honestly, the first sentence 414 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,320 really just sells it. Pakurana have 4 legs and large 415 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,880 heads. Oh my God, they are considered a 416 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,960 scansorial species. When they eat, they grasp their 417 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,600 food with their fore paws while sitting on their hind legs. 418 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,320 Full stop. That's all that apparently we 419 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,000 know about. Them I mean, honestly, that is 420 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,560 like not that far off from how I describe an oreodont, so I kind 421 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,200 of love that. I know I was looking for. 422 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,760 Limbs and large. Hands. 423 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,800 Sitting on the little. Like a little rodent eating 424 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,960 grass. Yeah, that's great, that is. 425 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,680 Like I love that they clarified 4 limbs, not 2, not 644 limbs. 426 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,720 Amy, I had a. Conversation yesterday with 427 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,200 someone who was like, yeah, it's not like I got 4DS. 428 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,360 And I was like, well, you kind of do. 429 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,240 It's not like you would call a cat's forearms, arms. 430 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:25,880 You would just call all those DS. 431 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,120 You do have 4DS. He was like, and I was like, 432 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:30,680 please just fix my iPhone screen. 433 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,320 I'm going to go shopping. Yeah, it was great. 434 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,680 So. So that's pacaranas and the 435 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,520 other thing that I found out about pacaranas is I learned a 436 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,000 new word which was now I have to find the new word on my thing 437 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,960 here. When I was reading the original 438 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,360 description, they mentioned that the largest living rodent is a 439 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:57,960 capybara at 60 kilograms and the next is the Sylvadic pacarana at 440 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,240 15 kilograms. I had to look up Sylvotic 441 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,000 because I'd never heard that word before. 442 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,320 And I will tell you that what comes up on Google is not what 443 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,080 they meant, because what comes up on Google is plague bearing, 444 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,040 which just seems like a really mean thing to say about this 445 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,680 animal that we only know it. Has. 4 limbs and this. 446 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,320 Barrel with legs is infested with the plague, but like, no. 447 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:25,760 But maybe it really does meet that because the Prairie dogs 448 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,760 carry the plague. I look at them like every day at 449 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,680 work and I'm just like you disgusting creatures. 450 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,360 Yeah, it's also that means living on the edge of the 451 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:35,600 forest, which I think is the version that they were going. 452 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,560 With I prefer plague. Nope, plague. 453 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,720 Plague. OK, so they are able to 454 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,760 determine. So with the fossil, is it all 455 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,040 just morphology or is there like is it all just morphological 456 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,120 that's making it that type of rodent? 457 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,200 Yes. So it's all just morphological 458 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,480 that's making it that type of rodent. 459 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,000 The formation they think now is Pleistocene. 460 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,560 It used to be considered Pliocene, but now they're 461 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,360 they're they think it might be Pleistocene. 462 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,840 So they I guess in theory maybe could DNA test it, but no. 463 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,240 One wants to break them back. No one cares. 464 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,040 Well, nobody wants to bring them back, Amy. 465 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,920 And I can tell you there's really one thing that they care 466 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,280 about with this rodent, and that's not something you get 467 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,880 from DNA. And then they slightly care 468 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,960 about two other things. So yeah, the big question about 469 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,400 Joseph Arteagasia, how fucking big was it? 470 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,800 And do you want to guess how? So this paper was published in 471 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,960 2008. How many papers have been 472 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,040 published re describing how big it is? 473 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:40,720 I mean, I'm pretty sure one is Hopkins. 474 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,480 One is Hopkins. I think I know at least two, but 475 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,080 probably like 5. I'm going to go with like 5. 476 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,440 So I found six papers that deal with talking about its size, if 477 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,240 you include the original paper, which I do because that's the 478 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,720 only thing they care about. They barely talk about anything 479 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,480 else with it. So Joseph Rd. 480 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,640 Gassi, I'm on SI, it's definitely the biggest rodent, 481 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,160 but how big is it? Because as we see with the 482 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:13,760 Pakurana or Pakarana, the issue is that head is really fucking 483 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,480 big. Disproportionate. 484 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,600 Yeah. It's a large, clumsy water hog. 485 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:19,600 Come on. We don't know. 486 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,680 It's. It was weird looking. 487 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,440 We don't even have feet. And we only have the head and a 488 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,200 jaw of a different species. We don't even have feet. 489 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,040 We have no real idea if it follows the big head trend when 490 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,080 you are reconstructing body size as you know. 491 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,360 Yeah, like on this exact paper in stats class in college. 492 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:40,400 Yeah, exactly. It's important to note that they 493 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,520 don't mean how long was it. They don't mean how tall was it, 494 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,720 how wide was it. They mean body mass. 495 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,960 How much did it? How fat was this. 496 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,320 God damn. Rodent, the body shaving. 497 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,480 Why do we have to care? Why does it matter so much? 498 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,400 Can't we just accept and rule them for who they are? 499 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,320 I just why for real? Why must we categorize 500 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,800 everybody? That seems to be the only thing 501 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,880 that we really truly give a shit about is arguing with one 502 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,320 another about how big it is. Because if you use their teeth, 503 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:13,400 you get like if you use the square like amount of chewing 504 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,560 area that normally correlates OK with body size. 505 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,920 But it turns out that it correlates differently in 506 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,760 rodents than it does in other animals. 507 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,800 And it probably correlates different in capybaras and 508 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,680 pacaranas than it does in other animals. 509 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:29,720 So like all of a sudden you get if. 510 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,920 The only modern 1 is only 15 kilograms, right? 511 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:36,040 Then it must. It's a terrible analogy to then 512 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,480 just inflate that right? I mean like that's shitty when 513 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,160 you don't have something to in between to be able to bracket 514 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,760 it. And the skull is not perfectly 515 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,640 complete. So if people are using the 516 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,560 length of the skull, sometimes you I guess have to interpret a 517 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,000 little bit as to whether the nose bones went further than I 518 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,640 think that they actually are on the skull. 519 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,080 So there's a little bit of estimation that's involved. 520 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,800 And then some other people to interpret the size have used the 521 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,360 occipital condyles, which is where your head connects to 522 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:10,560 your, your neck. And like some, I think cabbie 523 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,080 borrows. But like definitely some other 524 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,360 Caviomorpha rodents, they have really large peroxipital 525 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:18,240 processes. So they have like these big 526 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,880 phalanges that go out past the occipital condyles, but kind of 527 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,080 also merge with it a little bit like they're. 528 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,600 Meaty tuck. OK. 529 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:29,080 Right. So if the idea is that your 530 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,680 occipital condyle, because it's holding your head to your body 531 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,480 should have a good idea. It should be useful for 532 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,480 predicting how big your body is. A whole paper was out arguing, 533 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,520 well, we should actually include the pair occipital condyles 534 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,280 because these are so big. Like these processes are so big 535 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,040 so. Just like yeah and then 536 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,120 categorize. This I did read very briefly, 537 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,320 read a different paper that wasn't actually about Joseph 538 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,240 artigasia, but it was on weird para occipital condyle stuff 539 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,600 that said that maybe it actually had the best title I've seen in 540 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,640 a long time. And this is the only other 541 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,720 thing, of course, that we really know about pacaranas, but it's 542 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,520 about an extinct one, which I think is very funny. 543 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,960 Why pacaranas never say no? Nose of the unique occipital 544 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,680 cervical configuration. So they. 545 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,440 Couldn't of their way. Of saying it couldn't. 546 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,680 They can't say. I got that wrong so they can't, 547 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,480 but that's I don't. I don't like that title at all. 548 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,680 I still thought it was funny, but yeah. 549 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,160 OK. So yeah, they've got, they've 550 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,200 got maybe they can't shake their heads. 551 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,880 So do you actually use the occipital condyles? 552 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,640 Similar. So you use the skull? 553 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,280 And how we were still fucking talking about this? 554 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,080 The last paper about this was in 2024. 555 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,720 Why do we care so much? The mass estimates that have 556 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,480 rolled out from these different things have ranged from on the 557 00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:01,560 low end, 269 kilograms, whoa, to on the high end, more than 2000 558 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,800 kilograms. Whoa. 559 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:04,880 What? Yeah. 560 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,760 I mean, like, I know that's a lot. 561 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:07,960 Are you really not gonna help me? 562 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,840 OK, 2000. I had. 563 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,640 I didn't translate all of them, but. 564 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:17,120 The 4400 lbs. We're what? 565 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:18,960 What? Yes. 566 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,120 Yeah. So we're going from, yeah, like 567 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,840 400 lbs to 4000. Pounds. 568 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,080 That's the range. Logarithmic difference. 569 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:30,840 Oh my God. I guess it's not technically the 570 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,680 most recent one, but the one that I actually like read in the 571 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,720 greatest depth and then also like translated everything to. 572 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:42,160 They had a range just with their with the paracondyles was 254 to 573 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,560 576 kilograms which is 560 to a 1270 pounds. 574 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,320 Wow. And I will say female cows can 575 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,800 weigh 1 to 2500 lbs. So this is like a small female 576 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,240 cow but not like one of my cows because miniature cows typically 577 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,960 weigh between like 300 and 500. So this would be bigger than my 578 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,320 mini cows. And bigger than my Beaver. 579 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,880 Wow. Way bigger than your giant 580 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,040 Beaver. Yeah, even those, those are the 581 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,280 small estimates, right? Like. 582 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,680 Right, OK, so even on the small. We've scaled it down and it's 583 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,440 still really big, so not a bare sized Beaver but maybe a bare 584 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,480 sized Gabby Barra thing. Wow. 585 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,000 And what did it? What did it do with its four 586 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,960 lips? I mean, is it just like a 587 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,520 grazing thing? Is it I'm? 588 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,720 So glad you brought it up. Like what a capybara do are they 589 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,360 like? What kind of ecosystem do they 590 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:37,880 live in? I have no idea. 591 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,920 Capybara are grazers pretty much exclusively. 592 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,160 I guess they really really dig the grass for some reason, but 593 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,840 they are also semi aquatic so just like all of these big 594 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,200 things, nothing big likes to not float. 595 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,440 So Kathy Bars spent a lot of time in the water so. 596 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,080 Large and clumsy. I think they eat quite a lot of 597 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,720 water plants as well. And I didn't see any real papers 598 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,720 doing analysis on how Joseph Artigasia lived. 599 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,040 So it sounds like they think that the San Jose formation was 600 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,240 maybe an estuary and that this animal was maybe kind of live in 601 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,240 semi aquatically and eating grass. 602 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,040 But that does bring me to my next point, which is once we, 603 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,720 once a person has stopped giving a shit about how big this animal 604 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,400 is, which apparently for some of us is never, you will never care 605 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,440 about them. Size Queen. 606 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:33,080 The next most common there's there's two types of paper and 607 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,360 they're the only other types of paper I've ever seen on Joseph 608 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,080 Artigaccia. So we don't know really what it 609 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,400 eats. We don't really know. 610 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,760 Like, who cares? And you think about it. 611 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,040 Yeah, none of that matters. Just eat something that are two. 612 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:50,120 Are two questions are how big is your brain and what those teeth 613 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,640 do, man, how bad? How bad is that bite? 614 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,960 You got some big teefees. Those are some big biteys. 615 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,240 So we've got 2 papers for each of them because this is gonna be 616 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,400 the new the new wave of Joseph Rd. 617 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,360 Gasias. Instead of arguing at how big it 618 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,040 is, let's argue about how hard it can fucking bite. 619 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,880 Of course. And I can already tell you that 620 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,800 the estimates are fucking insane. 621 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:18,720 But it is, I mean, honestly, with some of these estimates, 622 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,480 like, you know, I, it's made me really stop trusting finite 623 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,160 element analysis papers because I looked at them and was like, 624 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,680 oh, you didn't translate any of your uncertainty. 625 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,760 There's no error propagation in here, right? 626 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,760 And you already have huge ranges in your estimates. 627 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,920 And it looks like, and I, I admittedly kind of my eyes 628 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,440 blurred and I stopped caring. But yeah, it, it looks like 629 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,360 maybe a lot of these bite force papers are really just putting 630 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,560 these skulls under strain to see what the maximum bite is. 631 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,200 And just because you can like pull out Superman level strength 632 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,000 when your child is under a car or you need to bite a tree or 633 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,760 something, doesn't necessarily mean that that's some. 634 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,480 Weird scientists are plagued with your skull when you're 635 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,560 dead, yeah. That doesn't necessarily mean 636 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,360 that's how often or how hard you bit on the rag. 637 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,880 Right, OK. It looks like they just do 638 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,080 stress tests and they're like when does the skull shatter? 639 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,880 Why does it matter? If the skull hasn't shattered 640 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,360 then it's still but their skull didn't fucking. 641 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,960 Shatter because they existed for a while? 642 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,400 Fine. They didn't all just shatter 643 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,239 their skulls all the fucking time. 644 00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:25,920 I I just don't. I'm like, hey, how did these 645 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,280 things live? I don't know. 646 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,760 They obviously didn't live. Well, they they obviously lived 647 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:30,960 like we know they lived. Yeah. 648 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:32,760 Why are we? They bit each other. 649 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:33,440 That's. Yeah. 650 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,320 Well, we don't even know what they were doing with their 651 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,320 teeth, but because. Why we'd be. 652 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:38,440 Yeah. These are. 653 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,040 I think the word is hystericomorph. 654 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:43,840 They're a group of rodents that includes caviar morph. 655 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,880 They're all rodents. Where they evolutionarily at 656 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,199 some point needed more musculature to chew and said 657 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,440 fuck it, let's take a shortcut. And instead of doing what pretty 658 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,480 much all other animals do where we run our muscles over the 659 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:06,040 bone, they saw the infra orbital for Raymond and said, I'm gonna 660 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:11,800 just squeeze in there. Yeah, So they, they took, they 661 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,960 took a hole and they pushed some muscle into it and made it 662 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,320 bigger and bigger and bigger. And they run part of their, I 663 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,040 think it's their masseter muscle through that fucking hole, which 664 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,160 means that they just have different bite strengths, First 665 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,000 off, because they have different constraints 'cause they have 666 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,680 musculature that's working in different directions, but it 667 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,960 also means they have a lot of bite strengths. 668 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:41,320 So let me Scroll down to where I had put my estimates, but I want 669 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,000 you to think about how hard you think that this animal could 670 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,960 bite. I don't know, I don't know it it 671 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,680 like a number. I would need it to be like a bit 672 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,320 through a tree, a bit through the jello Jello. 673 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,440 I don't know. So I because people do this with 674 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,720 T Rex all the time and I can never remember the numbers 675 00:35:57,720 --> 00:36:00,760 because I don't care. But I also doesn't like it's not 676 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,400 tied to anything real for me. So it's really. 677 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,920 And since they're dead, I'll never know what they were 678 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,840 chomping on with them big old teeth. 679 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,040 So just tell me. OK. 680 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,960 So like there's of course as we've mentioned, there's 681 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,880 multiple estimates because we just aren't original I guess. 682 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,480 And so the first estimate said about 3000 Newtons and the 683 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,000 second estimate said that actually you have two different 684 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,520 measurements. At the incisors you get 1300 685 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,560 Newtons and at the molars you get 4000 Newtons. 686 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,520 And I know that none of that makes any sense. 687 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,040 So I looked up how hard a dog can bite and these are actual 688 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,080 tests of dogs biting. So I don't know what the cross 689 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,000 compares to. And they can bite between 13 and 690 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:50,640 1300 Newtons, so 1300 Newtons. So the the estimates are. 691 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,280 Teeth. Dog bite or worse? 692 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,400 Yeah. Dog bite or significantly dog 693 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,600 bite or double double dog bite. Can we not also just use our 694 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,120 eyes and look at that skull and also know that it could do that? 695 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,240 Like I get I'm just like, I feel like sometimes, yes, we need to 696 00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:09,480 actually go through the work and put the numbers to it. 697 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,320 But something said like really like this just seems OK. 698 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,720 Whatever you need that line on your CV, go go for it. 699 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,040 It could bite really hard. I saw somewhere preparing it to 700 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,000 like a crocodile bite estimates but then I couldn't find actual 701 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,560 numbers for that so I don't know. 702 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,960 But the question is why? Why would you bite that hard? 703 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,800 Like what's the point if you eat grass? 704 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,920 Grass doesn't run. Couldn't it just be a byproduct 705 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,240 of evolving to large sizes? Yeah. 706 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,120 Sure could, right? Like why does it have to be? 707 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,000 I bite so hard. It's like you just got big. 708 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,240 It's like I'm a gentle giant and I could still bite my own little 709 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:47,280 cheeky. It hurts. 710 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,760 I mean from the very little research we've done it looks 711 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,120 like they look kind of capybara esque and they probably ate 712 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,760 fucking grass so they didn't necessarily need to have strong 713 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,360 bite forces. But multiple times rodents have 714 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,880 evolved to eat nuts. We do have some rodents that 715 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,640 have evolved to be carnivores. Grasshopper mice are well known 716 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,440 to be pure carnivores. Rodents do use their jaws for 717 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,080 different things, so. OK, so they're curb stomping. 718 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,240 Yeah, but sometimes your ancestor did something. 719 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,120 They're curb stopping or probably their ancestors were 720 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,280 curb stopping and they just have strong faces, but they chose 721 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:26,280 peace. And grass. 722 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:27,840 That's what I choose every day too. 723 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:33,960 Oh, God. OK, cool. 724 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,280 Wow. I'm so glad because I, I, I feel 725 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,360 like we had to do that. We had to propagate the error 726 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,440 the right way in that stats class using like calculus. 727 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,800 And it sucked. And I remember having to care 728 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,920 because we had to do the math and it was annoying. 729 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,120 And now I can't look at any mass estimate and not get upset. 730 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,080 So yes, Edward. So error propagation is the 731 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,880 statistical idea that when you are, because you know, we've 732 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:04,720 just noticed that we went from 200 to 2000 lbs, you know, of 733 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,960 Newtons or whatever, like there's these huge estimate 734 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,360 variations and those are not error propagated. 735 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,800 That's just the error taking everything at face value that 736 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,320 went into a model. But for example, in order to 737 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,520 calculate the bite strength, they had to calculate how 738 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,800 flexible the bone is for a rodent to know at what point it 739 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,080 would snap. And so they just took a general 740 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,520 rodent number and they didn't provide any degree of 741 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,680 uncertainty. So what if some rodents have 742 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,000 stiffer faces than others? You have to take the error from 743 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,240 that. Then you have to take the error 744 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:44,920 from, well, how strong are these muscle fibers? 745 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,480 And then you have to take the error from, you know, like, how 746 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,760 big are these ridges? You have to take all of that 747 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,960 error and add it up together using fucking calculus most of 748 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,600 the time to figure out what the actual uncertainty is. 749 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,000 So yeah, with error propagation a lot of these papers would have 750 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,920 way bigger estimates, and they already have pretty big fucking 751 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,840 estimates. Yeah, so which makes it pretty 752 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,240 meaningless when you actually wanna do or say anything about 753 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:13,080 how big it was. And it's. 754 00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,920 Get a real which is. This is why all of these papers 755 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,360 can redo this same stuff over and over again. 756 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,920 It's not just 'cause they're using slightly different 757 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,040 techniques, it's cause a lot of them are not using error 758 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,000 propagation, which means that there's still so much wiggle 759 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,000 room in the model that someone else could like provide slightly 760 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,640 different numbers, use the same algorithm and get a completely 761 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,040 different. Answer so and then, you know, 762 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,560 again, who fucking cares? But I mean, that's a big rodent. 763 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,160 That's big. That's way bigger than any of 764 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,400 today's rodents. So cool. 765 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,640 Good for you, Rous. You know, cool. 766 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,600 We already knew that. So the other grouping of papers 767 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,040 about Joseph Arctic Gasia is really just how big were their 768 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,040 brains? Because I guess for whatever 769 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,920 reason, the first paper that came out said, well, actually 770 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,840 for their body size, their brain spice is much smaller than you'd 771 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,120 think. And then a second paper came out 772 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,960 and said, no, actually it's normal. 773 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,840 And also they had good sniffers their their sniff sniffing brain 774 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,560 portion. Yeah, yeah. 775 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,920 OK. OK, so that's OK. 776 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,360 I love it. Also, it's one skull, right? 777 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,880 It's like 1 skull. So we're also talking about how 778 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,680 big it's brain, is it even a full grown adult like I mean. 779 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,800 I think so, but I don't know. I don't know what rodent baby 780 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,480 teeth look like. How much variation are there in 781 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,400 modern rodent species? Is there sexual dimorphism? 782 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:42,600 Is there? I don't know. 783 00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:47,320 So my last piece of information about this stupid genus is it is 784 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,720 a a theory I myself have come up with. 785 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,480 Are you ready? These are. 786 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,440 My favorite. I think we're gonna, Yeah, I 787 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,280 think, yeah. Our philosophy here is gonna be 788 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,840 great. So if you are tired of writing 789 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,160 papers about how big this animal is and you're like, what else is 790 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:07,560 there to study about Joseph Articas, let me tell you, I was 791 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,080 reading through Wikipedia. How it begins. 792 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,480 Some interesting things about capybaras. 793 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:19,240 So capybaras most rodents in general are high are are hind 794 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:22,160 gut fermenters. I always get this confused but 795 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,960 they're they have their fermentation in the back which 796 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,440 means they are slightly less effective. 797 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,040 I guess rodents have have changed that a little bit. 798 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,520 So they they do have some bacteria in their foregut, so 799 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,640 it's like they're not committing one way or the other really. 800 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,120 But for the most part they're hindgut fermenters, which means 801 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,760 they're not as efficient. So capybaras have gotten around 802 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:48,840 that the same way rabbits do, by being auto coprophages. 803 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,840 Hey, I hoped you were going there. 804 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,200 I pooped you were going there and then I ate it. 805 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,840 Self poop eaters. They eat their own poop and they 806 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:01,560 run it back like the. Sheep. 807 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,880 Do they not want to eat each other's poop? 808 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,520 Will they eat each other's poop? Is it a preference for one poop? 809 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,160 I would assume it's a preference because it's just close 810 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,880 proximity. You know, I think they poop it 811 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,640 out and they're like, that's not done yet. 812 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:16,320 Let's send that one down through again. 813 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,280 But I don't know what happens if you're like, is there like, is 814 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,280 that what a potluck? Is what if you're hungry? 815 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:28,280 Be convenient. Oh. 816 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,960 My God that is great. That's disgusting. 817 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:39,280 So my theory is that Joseph Artagasia had such strong jaws 818 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,600 because it had horrible Constipation and it just had 819 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,240 rock hard turds that it had to chew. 820 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:48,920 So someone needs to look into the rock hard turd crunching 821 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,400 Ave. That can be the next Nature 822 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,720 paper on Joseph Ardagasia. Stop talking about how fucking 823 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,240 big it is. Talk about whether it was eating 824 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,200 its own SO. It's like a Nutcracker. 825 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,920 It's a poop cracker, turd cracker, bone crushing rodent. 826 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,160 But like poop crushing rodent. OK. 827 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,200 Oh God. Yeah, yeah, why not? 828 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,080 Or maybe it there's still some hard parts in the poop. 829 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,280 Right. That Yeah, the yeah, yeah, these 830 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,760 nutty poops you're reheating. What are we having tonight? 831 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,920 Leftovers. I will say that for those of you 832 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,040 who are wondering, you don't need to Google it. 833 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,080 I will tell you that most otocoprophagus animals, it's 834 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,040 like it's not an Infinity poop cycle. 835 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,920 They haven't like unlocked Infinity food. 836 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:37,480 They eat it once, so they just run it through that second wash 837 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,640 and then they're done. But how do they know? 838 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,480 I would assume the reason that they pretty constantly, well, if 839 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,880 you are eating your poop, it's because it's not fully digested. 840 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,200 So I would assume that they could either smell the bacteria 841 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,200 that they pooped out or they would tell that it's like soft 842 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,640 and still full of it still smells good. 843 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,360 Yeah, it still smells good as. I sit next to a bag of Taco Bell 844 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,560 and I'm like, yeah. I mean, the way that Taco Bell 845 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,120 sometimes burns on the way out would imply that it does 846 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,200 probably retain a lot of its original kind of chemistry. 847 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:16,360 Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah, yeah, that reminds me of 848 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,640 something I want to do for a future episode, but OK. 849 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:31,280 Mystery intrigue thesis. Oh gross gross, I love that. 850 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,920 Why aren't people talking about that? 851 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,280 That's way more interesting. Right. 852 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,880 I think how big those turds would have been, that's way more 853 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,120 interesting. I want to know how big your 854 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,440 poops are. That's a good point. 855 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,520 That's it. Those are some pretty big poops. 856 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,840 Yeah. How big is a capybara poop? 857 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,520 When do they eat their poop? Do they poop in the water? 858 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,160 They are auto copper phages. That's how I know about it, but. 859 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,760 They want Slurpee. Slurpee. 860 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,480 Oh my God. Oh, that just caught up to me, 861 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:01,320 dear. Water. 862 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,440 Hot God. There are things wrong with me. 863 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,600 It's true. So that's true, but I don't eat 864 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,080 my own poop. I I, you know, huh. 865 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,760 Well, I mean, and that I feel like I didn't mention that in 866 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,760 mine either. One of the other lines of 867 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,680 evidence of why they because we actually care about what giant 868 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,720 Beavers were doing in their ecosystem. 869 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,480 And like yours. Yeah, and the whole were they 870 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,440 chopping logs or not? Another line of evidence that 871 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,520 they were not is that we don't have any wood that has giant 872 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,040 Beaver marks in it. So there's been no matching of 873 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:43,280 the giant incisors to any wood. And they also said that some 874 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:50,760 lakes that had been claimed to be dammed by Beavers were just 875 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,720 like coincidence. But they definitely affect their 876 00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:58,840 ecosystem in a large way. And that's what a lot of these 877 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:04,600 folklore legends were about as well, is about the giant Beaver 878 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,480 just running around the Midwest area kind of like damming up all 879 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,400 the Great Lakes. And that that was the mythology 880 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,560 for that. And the the gods were like, stop 881 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,480 doing that. And then like chasing them all 882 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,840 over, creating these different topographic features of the 883 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:25,120 area, all being explained by these giant Beavers and like 884 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,240 being chased after. But yeah, it I also really 885 00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:31,440 appreciated the title of this paper. 886 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,720 I will tell you it's from 1972, so. 887 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,840 OK. There's some things about it I 888 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,440 didn't love, but it's called the giant Beaver, a prehistoric 889 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:40,960 memory. But. 890 00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:46,920 I've like modern day fantasy anyway, OK. 891 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,520 But yeah, it's all about these different folklore evidence of 892 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,120 yeah, that are these stories from the Algonquin people and 893 00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,120 Goose Cap who would come through and find all these dams and then 894 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,600 would find the giant Beavers. So then he would go kill the 895 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,880 entire family, 1 by 1, the young ones, the old ones. 896 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,400 He broke the dam and killed the Beavers by Spearing. 897 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,840 He saw another young Beaver going up, so he threw 2 stones 898 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,800 to frighten him. And those are now these rocks 899 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,520 that are these falls in the area. 900 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,600 And so the paper was very interesting because it was 901 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:24,040 essentially like, do we, you know, this is folklore, these 902 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,080 are oral traditions from indigenous people. 903 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,320 Are they useful in a scientific, archaeological context? 904 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,880 And the author of this is very much arguing, yes, like 905 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,800 absolutely, you know that there's 2 takes on this. 906 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,440 The take could be that either the indigenous people really did 907 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,560 interact with the giant Beaver and have these folklore stories, 908 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,000 or they themselves found the bones and fossils of the giant 909 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,080 Beaver. And we're like oh shit this is 910 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,240 some giant ass Beaver 'cause we also kill Beavers all the time 911 00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:55,760 so we know what a Beaver skull looks like. 912 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:01,720 And then she related to like talking about Mastodon and how 913 00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:07,200 we knew about man and Mastodon interactions before from oral 914 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,240 traditions, before we had physical evidence of Clovis 915 00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:13,240 people with mammoth or Mastodon kill sites. 916 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,520 And so her point is, hey, we shouldn't just discount these 917 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,120 oral traditions just because they're not physical evidence. 918 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,680 And then they found this cave. When was when did they discover 919 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:30,680 this cave in 1995 S again like quite a bit after this paper is 920 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,600 written. They found this again karst 921 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,600 sinkhole in Ohio. I didn't make you identify Ohio 922 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:41,440 and they found it's a paleo Indian site that that dates to 923 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,760 about 12,000 years old that finds spear points, Flint hide, 924 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:50,400 scraper, as well as remains of a giant short faced bear, a moose, 925 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,360 giant Beaver and a peccary. So we do now again, have 926 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,400 physical evidence that early humans did interact, that it 927 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,320 does appear that it wasn't just a random collection of that in 928 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,800 the cars, that they were brought there deliberately by the 929 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:11,400 humans. Thank you for listening. 930 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,360 If you like the podcast, be sure to rate and review us on your 931 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,720 listening platform of choice. We really, really, really 932 00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:19,960 appreciate it. If you'd like to hear more and 933 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,360 support the show, you can follow us on Patreon for some exclusive 934 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,080 hits or on our various social media platforms. 935 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,720 You can follow Amy on Instagram at Mary Anning's Revenge. 936 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,920 And Megan on Instagram and TikTok has geopedal fabric or 937 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,200 both of us at Weird and dead on Instagram and TikTok. 938 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,720 Our theme song is Unlock Me by Praz Kanal. 939 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,280 Cover art was provided by Chris Benson and the. 940 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,640 Host and this has been hosted and researched by us, Amy 941 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,040 Atwater and Megan Weatherall. Thank you for listening. 942 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,080 Oh, yeah, hold on, Logan. I've kept the door open because 943 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,880 otherwise there's a big echo, but we are filming. 944 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:12,320 You have to leave. So just so you know, we are 945 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,440 filming. So you're you, you look great in 946 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:19,000 your underwear. Please go sit and stop opening 947 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:19,600 cupboards.