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You're listening to Weird and 
Dead, the paleontology podcast 

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that tells evolutions most 
embarrassing and bizarre 

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stories. 
I'm Amy Atwater. 

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And I'm Megan Wetherell, and 
we're two living scientists who 

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are really excited about dead 
things. 

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In this episode we get way too 
excited about dead things as 

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they were dying because we're 
talking about signs of illnesses

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and injury in fossil animals. 
We're going to talk about 

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dinosaur cancer, the logistics 
of getting fucked up hard enough

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to leave a mark on your bone, 
and the nasty pus filled 

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consequences of surviving an 
animal bite. 

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Like always, our podcast talks 
about some disgusting stuff, so 

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please read through the content 
warnings before continuing. 

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This is going to be an 
interesting episode as I know 

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how gross it's going to be. 
So just be fully, fully 

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prepared. 
And to start, we're going to 

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talk about one of the organisms 
that introduced me to this topic

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of being able to see injury, 
disease, all these problems in 

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the bone. 
And that is arguably probably 

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the most famous case of 
paleopathology in the fossil 

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record for dinosaurs at least. 
And that would be Big Al, the 

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Allosaurus, who is really famous
because they made can. 

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I tell you really quick, I've 
been thinking that Al was a T 

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Rex this whole time. 
I forgot that he was an 

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Allosaurus, but that's why I 
didn't do that research project.

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I was like, oh, yeah, all that T
Rex, they had all those 

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problems. 
Oh. 

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From afar their skulls look meh,
pretty close. 

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I mean, I know they don't. 
Nerds. 

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I know they're not and. 
Up close they look the fucking 

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same to me so. 
Exactly. 

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Our logo at work is has an 
Allosaurus on it and people call

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it AT Rex all the time. 
And I'm like, well, yeah, duh. 

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It's not that surprising. 
So I don't expect the general 

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public to even know these 
dinosaurs names necessarily. 

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So this is about the Big Al, the
Allosaurus. 

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This is a specimen that I used 
to manage, I suppose, is the 

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paleo collections manager at 
Museum of the Rockies. 

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That's where Big Al lives. 
It is a 95% complete Allosaurus 

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specimen from Wyoming. 
And it got its own TV show. 

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It's doing way better than us, 
Megan. 

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And it's dead. 
For 100 and. 45,000,000 years 

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it's. 
Because it's got a white man's 

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name. 
And was found and published on 

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and celebrated by exactly those 
folks. 

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And us and everyone else. 
We all get inspired by 

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dinosaurs. 
And yeah. 

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So there was the ballad of Big 
Al. 

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I always just like, hear that 
Paul Simon song. 

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You can call me Al. 
That's always what I think about

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when I hear Big Al. 
Anyway, yeah, it is a really 

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cool fossil because it's 95 
fucking percent complete. 

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Like, that's insane. 
Like, that is in paleo world. 

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That's pretty. 
That's pretty great for a large 

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animal. 
That's great. 

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And then what's really 
spectacular about it is that 

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this poor, poor dinosaur shows 
signs of 19 different 

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pathologies. 
So pathologies meaning as we 

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will get into injuries. 
Collecting illnesses. 

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Yeah, exactly. 
Literally like a Girl Scout 

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badge. 
They were just like 1 here, one 

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there. 
So all of the different places 

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that this dinosaur had injuries 
where they also showed signs of 

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well, healing while also getting
much worse. 

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So this animal lived, lived 
through the these experiences. 

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They did not all happen at once.
It really was like a obstacle 

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course of hell. 
It has injuries to its ribs, its

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gastralia, which is its tummy. 
Ribs, they're cute. 

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We got the vertebra that are 
messed up are the door. 

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So the back ones, the neck ones,
the tail ones, chevrons, which 

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are the cute little part that 
hang off of a tail, a scapula. 

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So the one of the shoulder 
blades got messed up, part of 

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the claw on one of the hands 
shows signs of it would have 

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been really ouchy to attack 
with. 

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We also have injuries to the 
hips. 

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And then the ones that really 
stick in my brain the most are 

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the ones on the metatarsals and 
the phalanges of the foot. 

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They are really, really, really 
intense. 

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You can I only have two pictures
this episode. 

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I did good. 
So you can go ahead and Scroll 

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down. 
That looks like a rib that's 

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like shoved through a donut of 
what I'm assuming is bow. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
Doughnut bone. 

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That's the messed up rib, which 
was described as like having a 

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giant hole of pus, which is 
probably the first of many times

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you're gonna hear that word this
episode. 

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Just buckle up, y'all. 
And then the one that really 

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makes me cringe is the one of 
its foot. 

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So that's the second picture I 
have for you buddy. 

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That looks like a cry noise. 
Yeah, that does looks like. 

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Fierce to crinoid. 
Which one's the anal chimney? 

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I think it's the fucked up 
metatarsal. 

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Dealer's choice, really. 
Yeah, that's that's an 

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unpleasant growth to have in 
circling your toe. 

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So what I love about this image 
is that you can see a healthy 

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example of what this bone should
look like on the other fingers, 

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toes, I should say. 
And you can just have this 

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example. 
So it's the middle one that's 

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got this huge, like it just 
looks like it's got a pin, yada 

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in the middle of it. 
And the other sides are normal 

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and not crazy infected to the 
same degree to really show you 

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that this would have been, I 
mean, this would have been 

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debilitating. 
This would have most definitely 

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affected your ability to hunt 
and protect yourself. 

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While it obviously didn't kill 
this dinosaur right off the bat 

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because of this excess gnarly 
bone growth from the infection, 

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it eventually is one of the 
contributing factors. 

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And that's what the Ballad of 
Big Al is all about. 

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It's all about these terrible 
things that happened to this 

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juvenile Allosaurus. 
It starts with it essentially 

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like, oh, like a hatchling, yay.
Then it gets bigger and it's 

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trying to hunt and then this 
Diplodocus wax it with its neck 

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or something like that and like 
messes up, I don't know, like 

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it's vertebra and whatnot. 
And then it tries to hit on a 

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older lady and she does not like
it and she bitch slaps him and 

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breaks all of his ribs. 
And then later he trips while 

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he's hunting and breaks his toe.
I mean it's like very dramatic. 

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So I've never actually watched 
it. 

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I'm just reading the Wikipedia 
like summary. 

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That's a lot of main character 
energy from. 

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Yeah, they describe it in the 
papers, a great paper from 2002 

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looking at it. 
And yeah, on a lot of the parts,

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like the specifically that rib I
showed you and that messed up 

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toe bone would have had a 
fistula with it, which was an 

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opening on the skin for pus 
discharge. 

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And that is the type of stuff 
I've been reading about. 

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So please explain some of these 
concepts, these definitions, and

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why we're talking about this 
disgustingness today. 

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Yeah, so paleopathology is just 
kind of the study of all of the 

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terrible shit that could have 
possibly happened to you before 

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you became a fossil. 
And we're going to be talking a 

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lot about anti mortem stuff 
today. 

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So there's anti mortem, which is
before death, Perry mortem which

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is around death and is 
frequently this is what you died

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from and post mortem, which is 
stuff that happened to you after

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you died. 
Maybe you got eaten by 

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something, maybe you got nod on.
And we're mostly going to be 

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talking about stuff that 
happened to you before you died 

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because that's the only way that
you can develop these features. 

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It's not that Al got a bone 
infection and passed away 

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immediately. 
Sadly for Al, Al suffered for a 

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long time. 
So a lot of the animals we're 

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talking about today, they had to
actually suffer because the 

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things that we're looking at are
your bone attempting to deal 

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with an infection, to deal with 
an injury, to heal itself. 

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And it's not always successful. 
And if it was fully successful, 

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we wouldn't see that thing 
before you died. 

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So we're talking about anti 
mortem stuff here today. 

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So we're not talking about like,
I mean, maybe you'll talk a 

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little bit about it, but we're 
not really talking about like, 

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oh, bite Marks and predation and
all of that stuff. 

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Like, we're mostly going to be 
talking about, we're going to 

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talk about a little, but you 
know, dying doesn't produce pus.

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And that's really the topic. 
That was the qualifier. 

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We discussed this. 
It was like, what are the 

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parameters of this? 
Of all the injuries, only the 

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ones that are Pus producing, 
yes. 

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Yeah. 
Our tentative title listed here 

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is either Paleopus or 
paleopathology and gross pus 

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bones. 
Pyogenic, by the way, is the 

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official Latin term for produces
pus. 

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And so pretty much most of what 
we're talking about today is 

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something that produces pus. 
So when you are looking at 

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paleopathology, regardless of 
what sort of injury or illness 

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you're looking at, the basic 
idea is that bone is either 

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added or bone is removed. 
And that can look like bone is 

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moving, right? 
Like if you, if you get scraped 

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and healed, you're going to 
you're going to develop like 

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ridges, but that's not bone 
being moved. 

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That is bone remodeling itself 
and bone like being added 

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basically after you've had bone 
injury. 

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So all forms of paleopathology 
that we're talking about today 

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are some form of the bone is 
being added or the bone is being

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removed for one reason or 
another. 

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And that is how you can tell 
that it's not healthy bone, 

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because healthy bone bone has an
expected amount of bone. 

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You can look at the other toes 
on Elle's feet and you can see 

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smooth outside bone where there 
should be smooth bone, rough 

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bone where there should be 
muscle attachments. 

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But there's usually the easiest 
way to tell that something is 

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healthy is by looking at other 
members of its species, because 

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that's how you cross compare, 
right? 

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Otherwise, you might do what 
some, yeah, some early 

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paleontologists did and assume 
that some of the grossness that 

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we're going to talk about with 
Orionons, for example, was 

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species distinct. 
So turns out that some early 

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paleontologists in like, the 40s
and 50s looked at some very sick

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Orionons and thought each one 
was a different species because 

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of its different degree of 
sickness. 

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The easiest way to tell that 
that's not the case and that 

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you're actually looking at 
disease is to cross compare 

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individuals, especially if 
they're coming from the same 

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formation. 
That's a really a really nice 

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easy way to look at them. 
But bone, healthy bone also kind

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of has like a, a pretty a pretty
consistent look to it, I would 

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say. 
I know it is usually pretty 

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smooth. 
You know it when you see it. 

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Yeah. 
So healthy bone typically has at

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least in in mammals. 
I'm sure other animals have this

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too, but I don't care about 
them. 

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So whatever you can decide if it
it does or does not happen in a 

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dinosaur. 
But the inside of the bone, 

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you'll have some hollow spaces 
if it's like your long bone. 

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But like if you took your leg 
bone, you'd have a little bit of

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a hollow space. 
But a lot of like it's called 

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spongy bone because it really 
does look like a sponge that's 

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inside your bone. 
It's also called trabecular 

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bone. 
And then on the outside, you 

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have a really, really hard layer
of like thickened smooth bone 

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that doesn't have a lot of pock 
marks in it. 

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And that's the cortical bone. 
But the very outside of that can

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have small attachments for like 
tendons. 

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It can have places where blood 
vessels are going in and out. 

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It can have foramina, which is a
big hole where nerves go 

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through. 
So in order to identify healthy 

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bone versus unhealthy bone, you 
can't just look at something and

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say there's a hole in it. 
Clearly this animal was sick. 

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I would be like looking at a 
skull and being like, there's 

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two big holes right here in 
front of the nose. 

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Clearly that that animal is 
dying when really those are eye 

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sockets, right? 
So you do have to kind of cross 

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compare these things. 
Yeah, there is a lot of 

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different ways that the bone can
be impacted, right. 

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So with Big Owl, it sounds like 
there was some trauma involved. 

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It's considered to be injuries 
for some of them. 

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However, the paper does go into 
probably what you're about to 

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00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,280
talk about, which is like, you 
know, injuries versus like 

228
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,800
infections or illnesses. 
And then there's a whole 

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00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,800
category of idiopathic of we 
don't really know, but it's 

230
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,400
fucked up. 
Yeah, so illness, injuries, as 

231
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,000
my doctors keep informing me in 
a way that I think is frankly 

232
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,760
very rude, age and also impact 
your bones. 

233
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,000
I have a few bone spurs and 
apparently those are not signs 

234
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,400
of illness. 
They're just me getting older 

235
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,480
than my doctors, which is a 
little unsettling. 

236
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,200
And the other thing is that it's
not just illness and injury, 

237
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,280
because two people exposed to 
the same illness, like two 

238
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,920
people who get arthritis, will 
not have the exact same 

239
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,240
reaction. 
So there are actually some 

240
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,080
things that make the immune 
response, for example, cause 

241
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,120
remodeling of the bone. 
So cause your body to take that 

242
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,680
calcium and maybe add some more 
bone, maybe remove bone, but 

243
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:12,040
your body is actually doing 
that. 

244
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,000
It's not like it's been 
scratched, touched away by 

245
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,760
arthritis. 
It's not like arthritis is a 

246
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,720
disease that just tosses bone at
you. 

247
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,400
Arthritis is something where 
your body's immune response is 

248
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:26,440
adding on chunks of bone. 
So can you guess, Amy, what are 

249
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,760
some of the things that would 
make you more likely to have an 

250
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:30,800
immune response? 
Immune. 

251
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,240
Or stronger. 
Immune response. 

252
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:40,720
I'm on the spot and I'm nervous.
Well, you are one of them, so 

253
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,680
that. 
Being a woman, I know that we 

254
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:45,040
have more. 
I know that we have more 

255
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,480
autoimmune diseases. 
I have psoriasis and there's 

256
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,720
psoriatic arthritis that I have 
to look forward to. 

257
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,760
But yeah, so stress, having a 
uterus, being alive. 

258
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,000
Stress having a uterus. 
What goes into that uterus? 

259
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,800
Yeah. 
Oh, oh, having children, babies 

260
00:13:59,000 --> 00:13:59,760
usually. 
Oh my God. 

261
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,320
Wait, is that gonna make it 
worse? 

262
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:07,400
Yeah, so being pregnant will 
change your immune response, 

263
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,880
right? 
That's why pregnant women have 

264
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,880
to be really careful. 
Yeah, you have to be careful 

265
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,720
about like the things you're 
exposed to because. 

266
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,560
As an alien in your own body, 
yes. 

267
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,960
Yes. 
Yeah, you don't want your immune

268
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,200
system to attack your fetus. 
This is how my sister got cat 

269
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,160
scratch fever when she was 
pregnant. 

270
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,920
The thing that you don't usually
actually catch, but you can when

271
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,040
your body's trying not to kill 
the embryo that's inside of you.

272
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,720
Women typically have a stronger 
immune response, which could 

273
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,840
mean that if a woman and a man 
were exposed to something that 

274
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,440
would cause arthritis, because 
some arthritis is just age. 

275
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,000
Some arthritis is actually 
caused by diseases. 

276
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,240
It's called reactive arthritis. 
And then of course, there's 

277
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,960
things like siretic arthritis 
and rheumatoid arthritis, which 

278
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,880
are autoimmune diseases. 
But if you took a man and a 

279
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,000
woman, the woman's body would 
react more strongly, potentially

280
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,040
giving her more signs of 
arthritis, but also potentially 

281
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,200
doing things like healing it 
faster if it is something like 

282
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,600
reactive arthritis. 
So you're. 

283
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,840
Trying to tell me there's 
something a little bit OK 'cause

284
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,400
I was like, this episode already
is disgusting and now you're 

285
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,440
bumming me out about my. 
Now I'm flipping you out. 

286
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,440
Big female. 
So your immune response is 

287
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,320
faster, but like that also I 
think technically means that 

288
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,200
your healing response, if that 
immune response has ever 

289
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,760
decreased, should also be 
faster, right? 

290
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,200
So you might get worse bone 
growths, Amy, but as long as you

291
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,960
cure your syphilis afterwards, 
you'll. 

292
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,120
Be fine. 
Oh God, let me fucking e-mail my

293
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,160
doctor. 
Real. 

294
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,680
So this is a little different. 
Oh, it also depends on the bone 

295
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,800
that is injured. 
So a lot of what I'm going to 

296
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,880
talk about today is 
osteomyelitis, which is bone 

297
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,400
infection and bone infection. 
It often has kind of this 

298
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:55,320
characteristic response where 
the soft outer wrapping around 

299
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,680
your bone because your bones 
come shrink wrapped in something

300
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,160
called periosteum, the 
periosteum which also deposits 

301
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,200
something disgusting called bone
bark. 

302
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,760
But periosteum is not on every 
single bone. 

303
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,400
So like your sesamoid bones, so 
your knees don't have 

304
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,840
periosteum. 
So they respond differently to 

305
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,480
infection. 
The cartilage like ends of your 

306
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,800
bones often don't have 
periosteum. 

307
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,320
So if you got like bone 
infection in your knee joint, 

308
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,120
your body would behave 
differently than if you got bone

309
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,160
infection in your shin. 
All of this is to say, depending

310
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,960
on your gender, depending on 
your level of illness, depending

311
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,600
on your nutritional status, 
depending on where the injury 

312
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,640
occurs, you can have all of 
these different levels of 

313
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,600
reactions. 
So this stuff can look really 

314
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,280
different, and it also looks 
really different between things 

315
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,080
like mammals and reptiles and 
mammals and amphibians. 

316
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,440
That said, there are some kind 
of consistent markers for 

317
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,040
different ones. 
So some of them you can identify

318
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,800
and say I know exactly what that
is, that is rickets or that is 

319
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,640
probably tuberculosis rickets. 
But others you can't necessarily

320
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,640
identify as clearly. 
I know that is going to be 

321
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,960
another theme of today is just 
laughing at the misery of 

322
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,440
animals and fable. 
Yeah, I'm glad at least that 

323
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,560
most of my stuff is happening to
adults so I don't have to COO 

324
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,240
over dead, injured babies again.
The bright side? 

325
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:28,840
Welcome. 
To the show, everybody. 

326
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,080
Regardless of what sort of thing
is impacting your bones, and 

327
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,120
that can be things like 
tuberculosis, osteomyelitis, it 

328
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,320
can be cancers, it can be 
syphilis, tuberculosis. 

329
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,880
I already said tuberculosis. 
Tuberculosis is going to come up

330
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,160
a lot today. 
It's very common going back 

331
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,080
through the fossil. 
Yeah. 

332
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,320
And of course, fractures, 
getting your bone broken or even

333
00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:01,040
bruised can show up on your 
bone, but only if that thing 

334
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,880
doesn't kill you right away 
because all of the things we're 

335
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,240
talking about are not lethal. 
And in fact, many of them 

336
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,680
actually don't impede your 
ability as a species to 

337
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,520
reproduce. 
So you mentioned looking at AL's

338
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,520
toe, that that looked really 
painful. 

339
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,680
And I agree. 
I don't think that that is going

340
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,560
to fall into the didn't affect 
AL's life at all. 

341
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,800
That said, just his loneliness. 
There are quite a few different 

342
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,760
things like Megan's bone spurs 
that are apparently they're not 

343
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,120
necessarily going to cause pain,
especially if they don't occur 

344
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,880
in the periosteum. 
The periosteum is the thing that

345
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,880
has nerves, so if they occur on 
like a sesamoid bone, you might 

346
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,520
not necessarily be able to feel 
it. 

347
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,000
Sometimes you can have things 
like neuropathic arthritis where

348
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,200
it damages your nerves so badly 
that you can't feel it, which 

349
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,360
does make your arthritis 
significantly worse because you 

350
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,160
just grit your bones against one
another. 

351
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,680
Yeah. 
And in the case of some animals,

352
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,880
it's like a pattern, not just 
like random one off. 

353
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,120
So a great example would be 
rhinoceroses. 

354
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:16,000
Our friend Kelsey Stilson did a 
huge project on not just 

355
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,960
arthritis, but on lots of 
different types of 

356
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,520
paleopathologies in the toes of 
of different species of rhinos 

357
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,400
and cross compared that to their
body mass and found that First 

358
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,760
off, lots of rhinos have 
arthritis. 

359
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,280
That does not mean that those 
rhinos were suffering or that 

360
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,520
those rhinos were dying, but 
lots and lots of rhinos, even 

361
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,560
baby rhinos, sometimes have 
arthritis. 

362
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,840
Yeah, as these animals get 
bigger, the bigger the the rhino

363
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,600
species, the worse the paleo 
pathology is. 

364
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,640
And yet rhinos, at least until 
we hunt the rest of them, are 

365
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,440
still around, right. 
Like, there's been plenty of 

366
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,480
rhinos that have survived. 
So these things are not 

367
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,640
necessarily, you know. 
Yeah, they're, yeah, still 

368
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,720
making arthritic babies. 
A lot of these things that we're

369
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,440
going to talk about are obvious.
And if it's super obvious, 

370
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,200
chances are it was probably 
pretty obvious to the animal as 

371
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,400
well. 
But a lot of them are 

372
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,080
potentially not as obvious to 
the animal, and they might not 

373
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,360
have necessarily suffered 
either. 

374
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,640
So not all of the things we're 
talking about are lethal, or at 

375
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,280
least not at first. 
So cancer. 

376
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,760
That one tends to be tends to be
pretty, pretty lethal. 

377
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,520
And it's also with you as you're
talking about all that, I'm 

378
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,120
thinking some of this stuff I'm 
going to tell you about mummies 

379
00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:39,080
and cancerous tumors. 
And mummies, it does seem like 

380
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,680
maybe in those cases they, you 
know, didn't know that that's 

381
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,640
what was causing their death or 
anything like that, Especially 

382
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,160
because since they're mummies, 
there's some soft tissue. 

383
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,560
So it's not just relying on the 
bones to, like, define that. 

384
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,240
And I have, yeah, taken an 
interesting dive today. 

385
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,000
I've been, like, really 
fascinated and then, like, 

386
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,400
really bummed out reading about 
cancer in deep time. 

387
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,080
But we do have cases of cancer 
from quite literally hundreds of

388
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,800
millions of years ago. 
Okay. 

389
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,360
And I've also realized that 
within the cancer realm, it's 

390
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:15,440
all about a presence of tumors. 
However, they are very they 

391
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,800
stressed many times that if it's
a benign tumor that that's not 

392
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,040
that's not cancerous. 
So being able to define if it's 

393
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:30,040
benign or malignant in a fossil 
is so it's wild. 

394
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,040
So that's what some of the, I 
don't understand the, the 

395
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,920
medical terminology and whatnot,
but it's been looking at CT 

396
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,840
scans and being able to study 
them. 

397
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,440
This really cool paper I read 
about the oldest case of cancer 

398
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,080
in a Triassic fossil is research
that was done by I'm a big fan 

399
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,240
of Yara Hariri. 
And it's a project that she was 

400
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,960
working on when she was in 
Berlin. 

401
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,440
That's right. 
Anyway, so we have this stem 

402
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,080
turtle that's 240 million years 
years old with a leg bone that 

403
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,640
does show it's a malignant tumor
and that it really is. 

404
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,240
Oh gosh, it looks also, you 
know, again, looks painful in 

405
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,160
its own in its own ways. 
But it is they said that it 

406
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,080
looks almost exactly like 
osteosarcoma in humans. 

407
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:20,120
And that is not a super common 
cancer necessarily, but it is 

408
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:23,040
one that affects the bones, 
starts in the bones, but then 

409
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,200
can spread to organs as well. 
So it's bad news, really bad 

410
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,800
news. 
But the I really liked that 

411
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,520
Yara's work is showing and just 
articulating how it's important 

412
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,280
to study these diseases in deep 
time, to understand how the 

413
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,120
diseases themselves change too, 
and how your immune system has 

414
00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:42,120
evolved over time too. 
So to be able to positively 

415
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:46,120
identify cancerous tumors in the
fossil record, which is just 

416
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,400
mind blowing in a lot of ways. 
I read this other paper that 

417
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,080
they've been identified and 
mosasaurs, hadrosaurs, mammoths.

418
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:59,040
And then there's also evidence 
of also osteosarcoma in a 

419
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,440
hominin fossil. 
It's in the foot of a hominin 

420
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,680
from South Africa, and it's 1.7 
million years old. 

421
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,880
And it's the oldest case of 
confirmed cancer in a homininin.

422
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,040
So human, a very close relative 
of ours, this site has been 

423
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:20,520
known to produce, I think Homo 
Ergaster and Paranthropus Boise 

424
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,160
Eye. 
So it's probably from one of 

425
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,720
those. 
And again, it's an ankle bone, 

426
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,880
it's a metatarsal and it's got 
this big gnarly looking 

427
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,960
cancerous growth on the bone 
there. 

428
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,240
So it's been the interesting 
thing that this and the mummies 

429
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,800
article went into is, you know, 
when the like the Max lifespan 

430
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,400
for a human is, you know, like 
maybe 30 years, it makes it that

431
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,680
much more rare to find cancer, 
which as you said with, you 

432
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,920
know, diseases of just shitty 
stuff to your skeleton in 

433
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,640
general happens more when you 
get old. 

434
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:52,680
And so it's really, really rare 
to find them in mummies. 

435
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,800
But I read this really 
interesting paper about finding 

436
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,200
cancer mummies essentially. 
And I was like, wow, that's 

437
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,280
interesting. 
This is really sad. 

438
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,120
And then I kept reading and 
guys, I just have to apologize. 

439
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,600
I am so I can't help it. 
The first case is that of a 

440
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,880
Roman period mummy belonging to 
an adult male who displayed 

441
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,720
abnormal tissue mass in the 
rectum. 

442
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,440
Next one as the Renaissance 
that's king a tumor mass was 

443
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,320
identified in the rectum. 
Next 1A bowel loop of feces. 

444
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,520
I was like get your. 
Colon checked. 

445
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,560
Colon cancer is way more serious
than we are going to pretend it 

446
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,480
is here. 
Yeah, I guess we give soft 

447
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,320
tissue you can find. 
And that none really great. 

448
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,000
So again, those ones are 
affecting soft tissue. 

449
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,120
So we'd have no unless it 
spreads or started elsewhere and

450
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,400
then got to soft tissue, we 
wouldn't necessarily know. 

451
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,000
So it was very interesting 
approach with mummies and I 

452
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,280
didn't read a whole lot more 
about it except wow, I do you 

453
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,720
know guys, colon cancer rectal 
stuff is on the rise for our 

454
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,320
generation. 
So eat your greens and go to the

455
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,360
doctor and hope that your 
fossilized mummy skeleton isn't 

456
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,480
like full of cancer poop like 
10,000 years from now. 

457
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,760
So just an idea, but you do you.
I'm sorry. 

458
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,240
I feel really conflicted about 
laughing about butt. 

459
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:20,040
Cancer, but but also if you see 
like a certain degree of 

460
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,360
illness, there's this tendency 
to like, think of it as like a 

461
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,000
pandemic, like it's impacting so
many other individuals. 

462
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,440
And that doesn't necessarily end
up being true. 

463
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,520
You have to take into 
consideration the fact that the 

464
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,680
fossil record like is compacted 
time, right? 

465
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,960
Like these animals often didn't 
actually live together. 

466
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,200
Also that there's illnesses out 
there that just are not leaving 

467
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,920
a fossil record. 
It's not that dinosaurs never 

468
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:52,000
got butt cancer, it's that we 
sadly do not have a lot of 

469
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,520
preserved butts. 
We're working hard to change 

470
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,240
that. 
I don't know where I'm going 

471
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,640
with that but like this idea. 
I don't either. 

472
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,760
Amy Badly is looking into 
fossilizing her own asshole. 

473
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,040
It is. 
Now I'm hearing of Dream of 

474
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:14,160
Dreams that if we ever were able
to give back and create some 

475
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,000
sort of scholarship that it 
would be for inherently weird 

476
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,080
science and be like, I'm sorry, 
you have to be persuasive enough

477
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,200
to tell us like why it matters, 
but why it's fucking hilarious. 

478
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,560
I don't really care if it 
matters. 

479
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,120
I care if it's funny largely 
story. 

480
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,840
All right, so that's cancer is a
broad topic I'm noticing here on

481
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,720
our notes. 
I again have called this T Rex 

482
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,760
stuff and then specifically 
listed an animal and it's not AT

483
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,280
Rex so I really thought Big Al 
was a T Rex. 

484
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,880
We live closer to T Rex than we 
do than T Rex did to Allosaurus.

485
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,000
So you do. 
Have to I don't like that that's

486
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,360
dinosaurs are dumb and they look
the same that's how they. 

487
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,480
Feel about us except for we 
would if a dinosaur saw us. 

488
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,280
They would be like what weird 
hairless ginormous baby faced 

489
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,800
bipedal ape is in my way except 
for we're not. 

490
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Anyway, never mind this whole 
dinosaurs dinosaur. 

491
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,560
So when we talk about pathology,
we can't. 

492
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,320
I know you said we were going to
talk a ton about this and I'm 

493
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,800
going to talk about it, which is
all about like violence and 

494
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,960
fighting and the signs that we 
see of that. 

495
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,480
I guess I have a little so you 
know I'm talking. 

496
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,240
That's true. 
You do I, I know a little bit of

497
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,520
where you you might be going. 
So this one is more about, well,

498
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,560
OK, so like T Rex for example, 
right. 

499
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,600
So there is an idea out there by
one particular very vocal famous

500
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,920
paleontologist. 
The T Rex was an obligate 

501
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,800
scavenger. 
All right, So that T Rex was 

502
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,080
just not hunting anything but 
just scavenging for all of its 

503
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,120
food. 
And a lot of people think this 

504
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:01,400
is the total bullshit because it
is. 

505
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,160
So it's really fun to see papers
come out that just are more 

506
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,880
lines of evidence that point out
that this is, you know, like, I 

507
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,600
just don't know too many giant 
apex predators who wouldn't also

508
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,200
be, you know, a lot of animals 
do a lot of all right. 

509
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,320
Bears are going to be both 
scavengers and hunters. 

510
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,880
Bald eagles are both scavengers 
and hunters. 

511
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,400
These seems like why can't it be
both? 

512
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,000
Why can't we just accept that it
was it was fucking T Rex. 

513
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,760
It did whatever it wanted. 
Some days it felt like trying to

514
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,720
eat some in Monosaurus and that 
is we have a couple specimens 

515
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:42,200
that have I saw one in Montana 
that was healed bite wound in an

516
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,480
in Montosaurus. 
So big ass duck billed dinosaur.

517
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,120
It was anti mortem so it 
happened before, but we know it 

518
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:48,520
because there were signs of 
healing. 

519
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,760
So it obviously like did not die
from that. 

520
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,360
And for the bite mark of that 
size for the Hell Creek 

521
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,000
formation, the only predator 
large enough that we know of, 

522
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,600
maybe there was some giant 
Bigfoot of the Hell Creek out 

523
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,480
there. 
Like Saber Fang sass. 

524
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,440
Right, Yeah, yeah, I'm with like
scales. 

525
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,320
Yeah, I'm here for, you know, 
feathers down for that too. 

526
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,920
However, like you know, the 
simplest explanation is that 

527
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,520
that had your sword got bit by 
AT Rex and it healed, it didn't 

528
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,880
kill the T Rex, I mean, or the 
Hatcher Sword. 

529
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,200
Then there is another 
publication that came out, I 

530
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,920
don't know when exactly, but in 
the last like 10 years or so, 

531
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:29,000
that's AT Rex tooth crown that's
actually stuck in a tailbone. 

532
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,520
It's in one of the caudal 
vertebra. 

533
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,920
So AT Rex tooth in an 
Edmonosaurus tailbone. 

534
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,720
And it too did not, it showed 
signs of healing. 

535
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,320
It was not, it didn't finish it 
off. 

536
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,120
And then there's also an 
Edmonosaurus. 

537
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,880
Again, they had to deal with T 
Rex a lot at DM and S. 

538
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,840
So the Denver Museum of Nature 
and Science here in Colorado, 

539
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,640
there's a mounted Edmonosaurus 
that looks like it kind of has 

540
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,240
like a bite out of its tail. 
And it's hypothesized that this 

541
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,840
was probably T Rex and it too, 
I'm pretty sure shows signs of 

542
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,280
healing. 
However, like there is the 

543
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,400
response to this is, well, 
doesn't show signs that T Rex 

544
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,960
haunted necessarily, but that it
did bite AT Rex and 

545
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,680
Montessorius. 
Like it doesn't prove that T Rex

546
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,880
was 100% a it. 
Could have been knocked off by 

547
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,600
another T Rex. 
It could have just had a loose 

548
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,240
tooth for the day. 
It could have just fallen and T 

549
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,520
Rex is so tall that it like got 
embedded in the bone I mean. 

550
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,680
You know from the arms can they 
could only bench press 400 lbs 

551
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,480
so they cannot get back up. 
It was like it just right. 

552
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,880
It was like a toe, but the 
Montasaurus was just like, OK, 

553
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,080
bite on. 
I'll get you out of here, little

554
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,240
buddy. 
Yeah, that's true. 

555
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,160
Maybe it was like the land 
before time, but isn't that like

556
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,880
the? 
Mouse and the lion, it's like 

557
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,640
that kind of fable or whatever. 
So again, so that, you know, the

558
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,840
haters gonna hey, I, I stand by 
what I said in the 1st place, 

559
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,440
which is I think T Rex would 
have been just a totally going 

560
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,160
for whatever was easiest and 
most optimal and, you know, most

561
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,960
available at the time, whether 
that was eating them or it also,

562
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,600
we have a ton of evidence that T
Rex ate other T Rex. 

563
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,200
And so, I mean, again, I guess 
that could have been scavenging.

564
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,480
God, that's grim. 
But we do have T Rex toe bones 

565
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,680
with T Rex bite marks in them. 
So we do know that there was an 

566
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,320
eating of their own going on. 
But it does seem that T Rex 

567
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,120
preferred, you know, or at least
a lot of evidence with bite 

568
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,880
Marks and stuff and in 
Monosaurus and then of course, 

569
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:35,080
Triceratops, which shows that it
was the frilled likely of 

570
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,120
Triceratops likely evolved to be
a defense thing, not necessarily

571
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,720
for showing off or social 
display, but really was probably

572
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,800
to keep T Rex from biting the 
shit out of its most vulnerable 

573
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,600
parts. 
And so there's a lot of 

574
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,760
interesting evidence and signs 
of that too. 

575
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,440
And then the other kind of 
famous thing with T Rex and 

576
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,680
pathologies is that T Rex, some 
of the most well known skulls 

577
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,480
including Sue and Montanas, T 
Rex and a couple others is that 

578
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,240
there are holes that go through 
the mandible, the denary. 

579
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,040
And it's hypothesized to be an 
avian respiratory kind of 

580
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,400
illness thing. 
But that too is debated. 

581
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,880
So not everybody buys that. 
That is an infection from a 

582
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,160
specific disease and from a 
specific source. 

583
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,600
So again, it just really 
highlights like, even with a 

584
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,280
pretty ample sample size, it 
doesn't necessarily mean that we

585
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,240
understand exactly what's 
causing these injuries to be 

586
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,560
leftover. 
And that is, you know, more shit

587
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,000
to study. 
One really interesting concept 

588
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,400
that I was introduced to last 
year, this is a funny story too,

589
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,120
is that there's a lot of 
evidence that T Rex fucked with 

590
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,640
Triceratops and ate Triceratops 
like and almost every museum 

591
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,800
where they're together, T Rex is
destroying this port 

592
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,920
Triceratops, right? 
Like the new relatively new Deep

593
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,560
Time exhibit at the Smithsonian 
famously has the Nations T Rex, 

594
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,240
which is the Wankel Rex. 
Everyone ripping the head off of

595
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,840
a triceratops in the display. 
And last year I was helping out 

596
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,520
Dinosaur Ridge even before I 
started working there with 

597
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,760
interviewing some folks for 
their podcast, which is awesome 

598
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:10,240
by the way. 
Family friendly. 

599
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,160
What an idea. 
Not like us. 

600
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,520
Not like us. 
And I was interviewing Doctor 

601
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,400
Ali Nabavizadeh, who does a lot 
of comparative biology stuff. 

602
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,000
He is a ceratopsian expert, so 
he studies a lot of the horned 

603
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,200
dinosaurs. 
Just had this dope book come out

604
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,520
I think yet last year. 
All about some really crazy cool

605
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,720
illustrations. 
And one of the things that he 

606
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,600
brought up is he's like, I'm 
just so tired of every single 

607
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,640
thing being like Triceratops 
being like the butt of the joke.

608
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,360
And his point was he thinks that
Triceratops probably managed to 

609
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,400
do just as much damage to T Rex,
but probably did it to soft 

610
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,800
tissue. 
And probably like he, like he 

611
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,600
relayed to me that it would be 
like the horns being used to go 

612
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,360
upward into like the belly, like
the bowels of the T Rex and 

613
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,320
essentially like disembowel and 
would have would have been a 

614
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,160
pretty proficient fighter 
against the T Rex. 

615
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,040
But we don't see evidence for 
that because if that was the 

616
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,840
case, it doesn't leave any 
record in the bone. 

617
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,199
And he just as he actually made 
me come. 

618
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:12,360
Around on Triceratops. 
Yeah, yeah. 

619
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:13,960
And right. 
Doesn't give them a bone 

620
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,679
infection that lasts for weeks 
until they finally die. 

621
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:20,000
Just straight up disembowels T 
Rex. 

622
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,280
Yeah, which is hot. 
Go for it. 

623
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,080
Do it. 
I mean it. 

624
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,120
It would have been like 
literally hot. 

625
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,080
That would have been just like 
organs. 

626
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:33,520
Just. 
So that's. 

627
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,520
Stabbing AT Rex and coming back 
with a hat of entrails? 

628
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:37,639
That's disgusting. 
Just. 

629
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:42,679
Like drawn and quartered T Rex. 
It's fucking metal. 

630
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,440
Yes, I'm gonna draw that. 
Maybe not. 

631
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,080
That's kind of gross. 
Yeah. 

632
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,960
So that was the last disgusting 
thing that I have to say today. 

633
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,199
I will rest. 
Awesome. 

634
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,800
Well, I have quite a bit more 
disgusting things to talk about 

635
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,680
because I'm gonna start talking 
about osteomyelitis, which is 

636
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,960
general bone infection. 
It can be caused by a lot of 

637
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,080
different things and it 
specifically means infection of 

638
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,520
the bone. 
So it's often secondary. 

639
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,640
So it's not something that you 
just look at a bacteria and you 

640
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,040
get the bacteria has to get into
your system somehow and 

641
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,800
frequently it has to get 
actually into the bone. 

642
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:30,400
So getting a bite mark is a good
way to start osteomyelitis. 

643
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,280
Not necessarily the only way. 
Probably the most common form of

644
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,840
osteomyelitis, at least not 
outside of humans, is 

645
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,760
actinomycosis, which is caused 
by a very specific soil bacteria

646
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,560
that then can invade the like 
gums and like the the dental 

647
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,240
cavities of herbivores. 
So it causes a disease called 

648
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:56,520
lumpy jaw, which is a form of 
osteomyelitis that essentially 

649
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,920
all osteomyelitis. 
The way that you diagnose it as 

650
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,840
being different from something 
else is that basically when 

651
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,240
osteomyelitis, myelitis gets bad
enough, it infects the inside of

652
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:11,840
the bone and so as a result you 
get pus build up on the in. 

653
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,760
This is going to be really extra
gross. 

654
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,880
You get pus build up on the 
inside of your bone. 

655
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,480
This is also with lumpy jaw. 
The reason it's called lumpy jaw

656
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,680
is because that pus puts severe 
pressure on the rest of your 

657
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,040
bone to remodel. 
So your periosteum for example, 

658
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,520
will then go ahead and create 
more bone on the outside to 

659
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,720
compensate for the bone that is 
being eroded away on the inside.

660
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,640
It doesn't necessarily 
compensate fast enough. 

661
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,960
So if you X-ray an animal that 
has osteomyelitis or person, 

662
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,680
you'll usually see that the 
density of bone decreases 

663
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,360
because it's like trying to 
outrace this form of pressure 

664
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,040
and with Yeah, right. 
Like it's like this swelling 

665
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,440
nasty, like it's a physics 
cavity. 

666
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,320
It's a. 
Physics problem of. 

667
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,160
Trying to physics problem. 
Continue to strengthen that bone

668
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,600
but can't because it's literally
running out of in. 

669
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:08,240
OK, wow. 
Yeah. 

670
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,840
And one of the characteristics 
signs on the outside of the bone

671
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,880
is a typically your, the 
periosteum will kind of lift up 

672
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,800
and start depositing bones 
somewhat erratically. 

673
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,400
So like your bone will be 
swelling, which is a pretty good

674
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,840
sign. 
But also it has what's called, 

675
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,200
I've seen it called a filigree 
texture like little lace 

676
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,120
basically because it's like lots
and lots and lots of little tiny

677
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,800
like rivulets. 
And like it's just basically 

678
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,640
this weird chunk of trying to 
lay down bone super fast and 

679
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,160
laying it down kind of 
erratically. 

680
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:46,000
But the most obvious sign is, of
course, sometimes that pus finds

681
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:51,920
a way out and creates a hole. 
And that hole isn't just in your

682
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,200
flesh. 
Like it's not just pus leaking 

683
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,480
out of your cheek, which happens
in lumpy jaw actinomycosis. 

684
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,640
It's pus leaking out of your 
bone. 

685
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:06,840
So a really good way to see if 
an animal had osteomyelitis of 

686
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,680
any kind is you'll see a swollen
bone. 

687
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,720
If you X-ray it, it's not as 
dense on the inside. 

688
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,040
Very frequently on the outside 
you'll have like this weird 

689
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,720
filigree, Lacy kind of texture. 
Sometimes it's sinusoidal, so 

690
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:22,440
it's got like little's shapes in
it for some reason. 

691
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,960
And also there will be a big 
hole, which when I first started

692
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,560
looking at oriadons, I thought 
were bite marks. 

693
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,440
Yeah. 
So it can be a little bit 

694
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,640
difficult to tell the difference
between a bite mark that is 

695
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:42,760
healing versus big old pus hole.
Oh, she said it here first. 

696
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,680
You want to know what the what 
the big old pus hole is is 

697
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,680
called in a lot of this 
literature, Amy? 

698
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,640
Well, what? 
No, tell me. 

699
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,080
She's one of your It's one of 
your favorite words that's gonna

700
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,160
ruin. 
It is it called promiscuous 

701
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,880
hole? 
Nope. 

702
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,680
What's a hole that does it all? 
Oh my God, it's a cloaca. 

703
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:06,920
It's got a cloaca. 
It's a pus. 

704
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,880
Cloaca. 
Yeah, a cloaca for pus. 

705
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,840
That makes it like, cute. 
Yeah, yeah, No, it doesn't. 

706
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,840
Which brings me to Oriadons. 
So Oriadons, if you haven't 

707
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,280
listened to the podcast, are the
animal that I studied for my 

708
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,000
dissertation and the research 
I'm going to talk about now is 

709
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,200
my research. 
Imagine something that looks 

710
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,320
kind of like a pig, but it's 
related to camels. 

711
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,200
But its head is really fucking 
big compared to its body size. 

712
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,080
I mean like the camel relation. 
I mean we might go into a bit 

713
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,040
this like it would have spit in 
my face. 

714
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,520
It would have been spit a 
spitter. 

715
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,240
Oh, I've never considered 
whether they would be spitters 

716
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:50,880
or not. 
I don't know. 

717
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,240
I don't know if they spit like 
llamas and alpacas do. 

718
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,160
That might just be a camelid 
thing. 

719
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,160
So I don't know if there's going
to be a fossil record for that 

720
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,640
necessarily. 
So you can fill in your own your

721
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,640
own head. 
And the oreodont we're going to 

722
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,320
talk about today is a genus 
called Primaricacurus. 

723
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,360
It does have lots of other names
because oreodont taxonomy is 

724
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,800
insane, but most people will 
call it Primaricacurus and most.

725
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,120
People. 
OK, how many of the of us are 

726
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,200
there? 
Like 10? 

727
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,400
Are there 10 of us in the world?
The people, the people who talk 

728
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,560
about oreodons and don't just 
ignore them. 

729
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,160
Mostly leave it out of them. 
Call them. 

730
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:33,920
Primaricacurus. 
Yeah, so Primerica Karis is one 

731
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,440
of the more pig shaped orients. 
It's got really short, stocky 

732
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,920
legs, really big head, kind of 
terrifying teeth if I'm honest, 

733
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,120
some pretty big fangs. 
But the weirdest part about 

734
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,760
Primerica Kuris is its 
cheekbones. 

735
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,360
So if you look at the cheekbones
of this animal, what are you 

736
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:54,800
laughing at? 
What is weirder the. 

737
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,480
Weird thing to be the weird part
of a creature, you know? 

738
00:40:58,760 --> 00:40:59,840
It's like. 
Not expected. 

739
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,600
Yeah, most animals. 
You know who also has weird 

740
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,440
cheekbones though are 
entelodonts. 

741
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,120
And I'd, you know, those are 
like a defining part of their 

742
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,120
their weird hell pig. 
Yes, yeah, weird cheekbones. 

743
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:17,760
Isn't that weird in herbivores? 
So Primerica Kuris has really 

744
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,640
wide cheekbones. 
They go out really far from the 

745
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,840
sides of its heads and then the 
back of them curl up and like 

746
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,520
over. 
So it's got this weird like 

747
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,720
strange hook shape. 
We don't really 100% know what 

748
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:36,040
they were for, but I have some 
ideas which are related to us in

749
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,040
a very long convoluted kind of 
series of events ways. 

750
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,480
But initially when Primerica 
Kuris was being found and was 

751
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,400
being described, a lot of 
paleontologists in the 40s 

752
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,200
looked at each new kind of 
Primerica curious. 

753
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,720
And they noticed, you know, that
some of them had really wide 

754
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:56,320
cheekbones and some of them just
had kind of white cheekbones, 

755
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,640
that some of them had really 
long faces and some that kind of

756
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,680
long faces. 
And a lot of that is probably 

757
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,960
sexual dimorphism. 
They're describing like the 

758
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,680
differences between females and 
males. 

759
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,000
But one characteristic when I 
was first looking into Orion 

760
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,600
that stuck out was rugosity. 
So rugosity is kind of a catch 

761
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,120
all term for, I don't know, it's
kind of rough looking. 

762
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,120
And some species of Oridans of 
Primerica cure specifically were

763
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,000
being identified by this species
is more rugose. 

764
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,640
It has weirder cheekbones than 
the other one does. 

765
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,840
So I wanted to look at this 
obviously. 

766
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,520
And so I went to a bunch of 
different museums and I was 

767
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,560
looking at the rugosity and I 
noticed that it looked quite a 

768
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,440
lot like bite marks. 
There were big holes in these 

769
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,720
cheekbones. 
Some of them have straight up 

770
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,800
chunks that have been taken out 
of the cheekbone and the bone 

771
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,120
has healed around it. 
So it's like you don't see the 

772
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,920
spongy bone because the bone has
healed a like divot in the 

773
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,160
cheekbone, like a like 1/4 sized
divot in a cheekbone. 

774
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,520
It's just battle wounds, yeah. 
Battle wounds, yeah. 

775
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,240
And these are pretty extensively
concentrated on the cheekbones. 

776
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:11,680
There's not really a lot of, 
there's a couple bite Marks and 

777
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,040
a couple of holes and a little 
bit of rugosity in other places.

778
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,040
But like 90% of these injuries 
are directly on these giant 

779
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,720
fucking cheekbones. 
And it turns out most of the 

780
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:26,840
things that I saw and thought 
were bite marks were in fact not

781
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,320
bite marks. 
They are probably pus cloacas. 

782
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,560
Face pus holes. 
Yeah, why don't you describe for

783
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,280
the audience what you see there?
I appreciate so much your scale 

784
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,160
bar and it's weird fucking nose.
So I'm looking at a beautiful 

785
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,560
Primericacaris skull. 
It's got quite the Is that a 

786
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,480
sagittal Crest? 
Is that what you'd call that? 

787
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,840
It is a sagittal Crest. 
They have a very big sagittal 

788
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:54,520
Crest. 
They were. 

789
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,320
It's good at. 
Biting they were pronounced and 

790
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,280
it's got big ass fangs It's got 
very wide. 

791
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,280
Oh like honestly, it's 
cheekbones remind me of a human 

792
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,200
pelvis, right? 
Like a bowl shape kind of it's 

793
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,680
kind of like that. 
That looks like an in a lot of 

794
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,680
ways. 
And then on that zygomatic or 

795
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:18,440
jugal, whatever part that is, 
there's like this pea sized hole

796
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,480
that looks like a. 
Scale bar, How big is it? 

797
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,960
It's about 1 centimeter long, 
like in diameter there. 

798
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,840
And yeah, it looks like it's 
trying to like gauge its 

799
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,800
cheekbones or something like 
that. 

800
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,480
But it it, yeah, it looks like 
you put it on there. 

801
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,880
So you could like put this on 
like a necklace and you could 

802
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,280
string it on a chain. 
Yeah. 

803
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,400
So it's got about a centimeter 
wide hole and below it you can 

804
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,400
see kind of like the the 
cheekbone has puffed up a little

805
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,440
bit. 
So that's a very clear sign of 

806
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,800
osteomyelitis. 
There was infection inside of 

807
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,440
that cheekbone. 
Question on that then. 

808
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,080
So you're saying, OK, I thought 
these were bite marks, Now I 

809
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,320
realize that they're pus 
drainage routes. 

810
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,120
Could they be both? 
Is there a chance that. 

811
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,360
I would imagine so. 
Path of least resistance. 

812
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:10,720
Yeah. 
So the question is how does the 

813
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:15,120
bacteria get into the body and 
why is it specifically going for

814
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,440
the cheekbones? 
So when I looked at, I think I 

815
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,160
had like 50 or 60 primary care 
skulls and I wanted to only use 

816
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,120
the ones that had cheekbones 
because that was the ones that 

817
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,200
we were interested in is looking
at their cheekbones. 

818
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:35,520
But of the 50 or 60 primary care
that had cheekbones, 40% of them

819
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:41,440
had some sort of filigree 
texture, whole chunks missing, 

820
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,080
really big bulbous inflated 
bone, all on their cheekbones. 

821
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:52,040
So something is biting them to 
'cause this inflammation, and it

822
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,360
is really extensive. 
I don't know if that picture has

823
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,440
shown up yet. 
Yeah, but that's the underside 

824
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,480
of the cheekbone. 
That thing was huge. 

825
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:05,840
It was like, I don't know, like 
3 centimeters wide because it 

826
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,840
was so inflated and it has 
multiple pus drainage marks 

827
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,720
because of course, it's not 
always just one. 

828
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,680
And the reason that I concluded 
that these were pus drainage 

829
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,280
Marks and not necessarily bite 
marks is kind of complex. 

830
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,440
So when you have a skull get 
bitten, if it has a chance to 

831
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,200
heal before death, you're going 
to get a very different 

832
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,040
signature than if it just dies, 
right? 

833
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,760
So if an ornod gets bit and it 
dies pretty quickly, you're 

834
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,120
going to have a fairly clean 
puncture. 

835
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,880
You'll often have what's called 
green bone fracturing where 

836
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,440
you'll get like concoital 
fractures around the like the 

837
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,200
hole and you won't have signs of
bone remodeling. 

838
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,800
It won't have smoothed itself 
out, you won't have additional 

839
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,240
pits or anything. 
But if it is healed, you will 

840
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:59,120
have a hole that has like some 
degree of like smoothing over. 

841
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:03,960
What you won't have is big puffy
bone and filigree texture that 

842
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,960
is spreading out, you know, 5 
centimeters away from the hole. 

843
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:11,080
If you do have that, that's 
probably a good indication that 

844
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,800
it is actually an infection 
because that's the bone 

845
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,200
overreacting, right? 
That would be an overreaction. 

846
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,720
I strongly suspect that a lot of
these were actually caused by 

847
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:25,800
bite marks. 
I don't know that necessarily. 

848
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,840
The holes that we see are bite 
marks themselves that have been 

849
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,600
Co opted into becoming pus 
drainages. 

850
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,000
They're not bite marks that 
became cloacas necessarily, but.

851
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,480
But very. 
In order to get, it's very hard 

852
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,120
to get a bone infection. 
It's not very common in people. 

853
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,320
It's weirdly common in sheep, 
but that's one specific type. 

854
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,720
But osteomyelitis is a general 
thing is not super, super 

855
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,880
common. 
So basically my theory after 

856
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,800
looking at all of these 
different animals with all of 

857
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,200
these different injuries is I 
suspect that they were biting 

858
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,800
each other and it was causing 
these massive faces infections 

859
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,720
and that it was probably some 
sort of really poorly planned 

860
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,120
dominance display. 
If you can bite your friends 

861
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,880
face and make him injured and 
pussy, he doesn't really have a 

862
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,800
whole lot of time or biological 
energy to concentrate on making 

863
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,120
sperm or making time. 
Or to like get in your way 

864
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:21,200
while. 
You're to get in your way. 

865
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,720
Yeah. 
Yeah, but when you think about 

866
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:32,160
it, 40% is really fucking high. 
Like that is a lot of these 

867
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,160
animals that are actively sick 
at the time of death. 

868
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,840
And you said though, when you 
were looking at modern stuff 

869
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,120
like the bighorn sheep and 
whatnot, there were pretty high 

870
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,680
percentages with that. 
So you know my next question, 

871
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,120
which is related, I know part of
this answer, but you know, we 

872
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,440
talk a lot about sheep, pigs and
camels with oriadons. 

873
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,960
I know that camels do a lot of 
biting, right? 

874
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,360
I think you've told me that. 
Are they all biters? 

875
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,880
Are these all like kinky? 
I mean, I don't know what a 

876
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,640
camel pigs really gets up to in 
its spare time. 

877
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,200
Sheep definitely are not biters.
Sheep are head butters. 

878
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,160
We we have had sheep that are 
nippers. 

879
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,000
But it's only if you're offering
them food. 

880
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,000
It's not like they're biting as 
a form of defense. 

881
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,480
Camels definitely do bite each 
other and people, and they have 

882
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,720
pretty nasty fangs. 
I have not seen bone infection 

883
00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:23,000
in any of the modern orc fossil 
camel skulls that I've looked 

884
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,320
at. 
Interesting. 

885
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,480
And I also don't see any animal 
in the modern record that has 

886
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,360
cheekbones like this. 
Even if you look at things like 

887
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,200
hippos, which do have pretty 
wide cheekbones, their 

888
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,440
cheekbones are situated 
differently so that they can 

889
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,520
drop their jaw open all the way.
These cheekbones don't seem to 

890
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,320
have improved the bite strength 
at all. 

891
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,840
And unlike in hippos where the 
jaws kind of move outwards a 

892
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,600
little bit with the expanding 
cheekbones. 

893
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,320
So like everything is getting 
wider if you're a hippo with 

894
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,480
these guys, only the zygomatic 
arches get wider. 

895
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,680
The the jaw itself doesn't 
necessarily seem to expand. 

896
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,760
So you have this really obvious 
like characteristic about this 

897
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,280
Organism. 
It's got like there were some 

898
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,800
actual bite marks, but most of 
these are like bite Marks and 

899
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,640
infections. 
So for me that says something 

900
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:18,360
about like this is maybe like 
antlers, essentially this is 

901
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,680
section of the body that has 
been expanded for some reason 

902
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,840
related to impressing others. 
But I also don't, I don't know, 

903
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,280
like 40% is a really high 
percentage. 

904
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,760
The other thing to keep in mind 
is that not all oridans die with

905
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,320
their zygomatic arches. 
So we might just be looking at 

906
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:44,040
males, For example, if females 
didn't have as big or as thick 

907
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,080
of zygomatic arches, maybe their
zygomatic arches broke. 

908
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,960
Maybe if you don't have bone 
infection that causes this weird

909
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,600
rapid growth, your zygomatic 
arches remain relatively small 

910
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,760
and they are more likely to 
break. 

911
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,760
So part of the reason that we're
seeing 40% with these infections

912
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,080
might not mean that 40% of 
Oridans were running around like

913
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,880
zombies with pus draining down 
their faces. 

914
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,520
It might just mean that the 
conditions of fossilization 

915
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,280
tended to prefer those because 
they have more bone that you'd 

916
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,120
have to get rid of. 
It's disgusting. 

917
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,120
It is disgusting. 
Right. 

918
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,520
And then also the fact that 
these are like the chunkiest of 

919
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,840
the Orient. 
So that's going to help with 

920
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,480
some Tafanomic stuff too, 
because they're going to just be

921
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,400
like more like, you know, more 
robust. 

922
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,080
And. 
Maybe they could withstand all 

923
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,720
the preservation processes 
better because they were the 

924
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:43,960
biggest of the bigs and 
disgusting, disgusting or 

925
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,440
people. 
They or they were just like 

926
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,480
really into it. 
They were like, I like it when 

927
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,120
my face is puffy. 
Yeah, I just don't if really you

928
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,000
have half of your population is 
walking around at any time with 

929
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,160
pus face, that seems like a 
recipe for disaster. 

930
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:00,840
And yes, they are extinct, but 
so are a lot of other Oriadons 

931
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,120
that didn't have super obvious 
bone infections all of the time.

932
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,480
So I think that probably what we
have in oriadons is a 

933
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,840
combination of those nice big 
cheekbones make them attractive 

934
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,640
to other things, but are also a 
convenient target. 

935
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,480
And if you get bit that causes 
bone infection, and if you get 

936
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,560
bone infection your bone is 
stronger for fossilization 

937
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,880
purposes, you are miserable. 
This would not have been 

938
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,120
present. 
Weirdly have not found a single 

939
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,760
Orion with actinomycosis. 
Oh wait, And what? 

940
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,040
What would that look like? 
Lumpy, lumpy jaw and it's only 

941
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,280
usually in the jaw. 
Sometimes I think I've seen it a

942
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,080
little bit in the upper, but 
usually it's in the the mandible

943
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,640
and I have not seen that in any 
Orion. 

944
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,240
Ha, they just did it this way. 
They their lumpy jaw was lumpy. 

945
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,760
It might also be that they were 
browsers more than they were 

946
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,480
grazers, and actinomycosis is a 
soil Organism, so maybe they 

947
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,600
were just able to avoid it. 
But yeah, no cavities either. 

948
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:58,240
Wow, wow. 
Wild. 

949
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,720
That's almost like they were 
really healthy other than their 

950
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:05,000
pus faces. 
Maybe you're just catching them 

951
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,480
in their teenage years and these
are just, they're like, you 

952
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:09,160
know. 
Bone well, we did find several 

953
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,800
juveniles that had these marks, 
so it's not something that is 

954
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,360
exclusively limited to really 
big and wide skulls, which we 

955
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,440
would assume are male. 
It does seem to. 

956
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,600
Be. 
Impacting kids as well, so maybe

957
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,200
there's some little little shit 
head teenagers that we're 

958
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:25,440
getting in on this action as 
well. 

959
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:27,120
Right. 
Well, that sounds about right. 

960
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,360
Bone heads. 
Pus heads. 

961
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,160
So yeah, that's ornodons. 
I still need to finish writing 

962
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,720
up that paper, but there were at
least quite a few pus filled, 

963
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,520
leaky faced ornods running 
around in the world when primary

964
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,760
Cacurus was alive. 
And if you want to see some of 

965
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,800
them, not the living ones, 
obviously, they're dead. 

966
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,240
The Carnegie Museum has some 
really beautiful displays, and 

967
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,720
one of them includes 3 big 
Primerica Curious that died 

968
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:58,840
together in a sandstorm. 
And they're cuddling, which is 

969
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,040
really cute and sad. 
Yeah. 

970
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:05,040
And they have a little bit of 
rugosity, but they also have 

971
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:06,560
quite a lot of arthritis, 
actually. 

972
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,600
So they were like old, older 
gentlemen and sandstorms like. 

973
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,160
The old ladies just spooning. 
I think these ones were dudes. 

974
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,280
They have pretty big wide 
psychomatic arches. 

975
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,760
But maybe they were, maybe they 
were ladies. 

976
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,800
We don't know. 
It's kind of, it's pretty much 

977
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,280
impossible actually to tell 
whether they were actually 

978
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,960
female or male. 
Maybe there were just some there

979
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,360
was some non sex related reason 
for getting your cheekbones that

980
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,040
big. 
I dare to dream. 

981
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,320
I can just it was it was for 
like handles but they didn't 

982
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,200
have hands, does it? 
Make any sense? 

983
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,560
Yeah, They didn't have hands. 
They had, they had hooves. 

984
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,120
So. 
Yeah. 

985
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,640
Oh, God, that's gross. 
Yeah, I know when I've handled a

986
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,840
few of these specimens that I've
always been like envisioning 

987
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,200
what their head would have 
really looked like, you know, 30

988
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,080
million years ago or whatever. 
And that kind of grosses me out.

989
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,000
I don't get grossed out by a 
lot, but the idea of holding 

990
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:02,520
like a pus filled bone is not 
not as I I like give me copper 

991
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,280
all day every day, but pus 
filled bones. 

992
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,600
That's that's gross. 
It's just like a, you know, 

993
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,320
Cadbury egg from hell. 
It's. 

994
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,160
Just disgusting. 
Oh my God, Amy. 

995
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,680
Oh my. 
God, it's just, I wonder, wonder

996
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:17,880
what's inside. 
I know. 

997
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:27,200
The cream, yeah. 
So not, not a species level 

998
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,360
characteristic. 
In fact, if you look at a bunch 

999
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,680
of Oridans from the same 
location at the same time, 

1000
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,000
you're going to have a variety, 
some that have pus faces, some 

1001
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,240
that do not. 
Because this is definitely 

1002
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:40,040
paleopathology. 
It's not. 

1003
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:42,400
Some of them had rough bone and 
some of them didn't. 

1004
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:44,560
Right. 
It is not a sign of right 

1005
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,920
different ancestry. 
It is it. 

1006
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,080
It could happen to it could 
happen to any of us. 

1007
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,560
Yeah, I'm going to bite 
someone's cheekbone. 

1008
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,840
Yeah. 
So that's Paleopus is it's good 

1009
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,480
to keep in mind that probably a 
lot of other Oregons did have 

1010
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,680
injuries, they just didn't 
necessarily get bone infections.

1011
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,440
And that even though we see 40% 
that have bone infections, that 

1012
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,800
doesn't necessarily mean 40% at 
any given time. 

1013
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,640
We're just hanging out leaking 
pus, trying to impress the 

1014
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,520
ladies like it probably was some
sort of other signature that is 

1015
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,320
preserving more than other 
things. 

1016
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:24,640
So thank you for sharing the 
oreodont absurdities of no, that

1017
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,760
is the. 
Thing that we really cannot say 

1018
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,280
fussy, because deciding how to 
spell that is just not going to 

1019
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,280
fly. 
It's going to be something 

1020
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,680
totally different. 
Thanks all.