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You're listening to Weird and 
Dead, the paleontology podcast 

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that tells evolutions most 
embarrassing and bizarre 

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stories. 
I'm Amy Atwater. 

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And I'm Megan Wetherell, and 
we're two living scientists who 

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are weirdly excited about dead 
things. 

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On this episode, we talk about 
dead animals and tombs together,

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some of whom seem more excited 
to be there than the. 

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Others from ominously falling 
ash to excuse me, just let me 

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just squeeze in there and 
presumably fighting to the 

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death. 
We talk about all the 

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circumstances of how these 
couples came to be. 

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Also a weird amount of time 
spent discussing the exact 

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timing of rigor mortis. 
Like always, our show talks 

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about some disgusting things and
sad dead animals, so please 

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check the warnings in the 
description here we are together

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today to talk about fossil 
friends like you and me were 

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fossil friends. 
We. 

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Are gathered here today. 
We are gathered here today to 

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continue to praise the devil. 
We're talking about fossil 

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friends, and I don't mean me and
Megan's amazing friendship. 

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What we mean are animals or 
organisms that have been 

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preserved together in the fossil
record. 

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And our big questions today are 
trying to discern, OK, were they

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doing that on purpose? 
Were they trying to hang out? 

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Or was it preservation? 
Is it is this an artifact of 

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taphonomy? 
Like what happens between an 

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Organism being, you know, like 
dying and being discovered? 

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Or were these organisms actually
interacting? 

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What's the nature of those 
interactions? 

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And how the heck do we ever get 
preservation that allows for us 

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to even ask these questions? 
Like what sorts of ingredients 

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do you need to be able to 
preserve you and your best 

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friend forever for 100 million 
years, 100 million years. 

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So arguably the most famous, 
they're not friends in this 

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scenario. 
I'll just start with that. 

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This is it's frenemies. 
We're fossil frenemies. 

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Sometimes they might be friends,
Sometimes they might be enemies.

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Sometimes they might be 
roommates. 

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Sometimes they might be 
roommates with a like a winky 

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emoji. 
You know, that's really the the 

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big question here. 
All of these could be 

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interspecies love affairs. 
I don't know. 

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Except for the ones that are 
very clearly like mother and 

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child. 
Let's. 

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Just Oh yeah, yeah. 
No, this is not not Game of 

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Thrones bullshit. 
Not an Oedipus right now, right?

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Yeah, you're right. 
Thank. 

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You're right, though, frenemies 
is important. 

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We do a lot of the stuff we're 
talking about, at least what I'm

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talking about. 
I got stuck with all the 

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dinosaur stuff this week. 
I mean, I am braced all the 

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dinosaur stuff this week and 
embracing is a good turn. 

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OK, so I'm just cutting to it. 
The dueling dinosaurs, right? 

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The dueling. 
I've been hearing about these 

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fucking fossils for over a 
decade now. 

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Like well over a decade now. 
I'm kind of a little over it, 

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but I've been excited about the 
more recent developments in 

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this, mostly because the people 
working on it now are very cool 

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people. 
So the dueling dinosaurs is one 

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of the best known cases of 
dinosaurs found together in the 

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fossil record and have been very
much interpreted as fighting. 

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It is a juvenile T Rex and a 
Triceratops that was found on 

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private land in Montana in 2006.
It only came to public attention

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in, like, 2011 because they 
started such an impressive 

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marketing campaign to sell it. 
It was very controversial then. 

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It's very controversial now. 
I've actually had a role in 

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this. 
I kind of forgot about it. 

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And then I was like, oh, yeah, I
had to, like, go testify in 

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front of the Montana Legislature
on this when I was working at 

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Museum of the Rockies in 
Montana. 

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So why this specimen was found 
on private land? 

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OK. 
And it's a very sexy specimen. 

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And so they were like, well, 
we're going to sell it. 

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We're not going to, you know, 
give it to a museum. 

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We're going to sell it. 
They had a really hard time 

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trying to sell it and then 
eventually they got an offer, 

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which is where it is now with 
the North Carolina State 

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University Museum. 
And then since the OK, so this 

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is the this is the this is the 
T. 

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So when you are a landowner and 
Megan, you are I'm not I, I 

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don't know that I don't count. 
I shouldn't be able to vote. 

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You can own. 
You can own your land. 

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When you own your land, you very
rarely own your mineral rights. 

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Mineral rights are subsurface 
rights to land. 

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That is way more confusing and 
patchwork quilt like. 

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It is just chaotic. 
You like a one piece of land 

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that's one individual family. 
My own though surface rights to 

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there could be a dozen different
players involved with those 

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mineral rights. 
It is very complicated and it 

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exists because minerals, some of
them are worth a shit ton of 

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money. 
It's all about economic, 

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economic value. 
So they're separated and a lot 

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of times this is, is like Shell,
Texaco, all these groups are 

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going to own your mineral rights
and you don't own the the 

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surface. 
You will own the surface rights,

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but not the mineral rights. 
So when this fossil, it turns 

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out, was going to be sold for a 
heck of a lot of money, the 

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people who owned the mineral 
rights to that land came in and 

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said no, no, no, no, no, that's 
ours. 

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We want that money because yeah,
yeah, yeah. 

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We own the mineral rights. 
And fossils, by definition, are 

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minerals. 
Therefore, they should be a part

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of this. 
I mean, it was a freaking. 

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It was a shit show. 
It went to the Montana Supreme 

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Court. 
I, I don't remember. 

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I think I testified in like 
2019. 

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We were very on the side of no, 
no, they're not for like a ton 

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of reasons, mostly that like a 
therefore you're making all 

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fossils be an economic mineral 
resource and they're not all. 

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So now all of a sudden if I just
want to pick up some like 

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ammonites that I find on my own 
land now I don't own them 

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because they're fossils. 
And so technically the whoever, 

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it just gets really confusing. 
It all also really threatens a 

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bunch of fossil ownership claims
in other places and other parts 

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of the state. 
So again, if we look at what has

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already been done, it was just 
very weird, especially because 

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it's so fragmented and it can 
just be make access almost just 

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like not possible. 
So eventually, I mean, and it's 

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all because I spoke to them. 
On yeah, obviously, yeah. 

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It's like, hello, right? 
Fossils are not mind. 

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We don't process them. 
We're not like putting them in, 

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grinding them up. 
I mean, you can, yeah. 

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I guess, yeah. 
And I mean, some of them have 

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minerals, like there's the ones 
that are opalized, but that's a 

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totally separate weird hybrid 
case, so. 

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You can get pyrites disease in a
fossil, but pyrite is pretty 

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worthless too. 
So yeah, we just got to find 

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that dinosaur with a diamond up 
its butt and then that will 

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that'll cause some controversy. 
That'll be that'll be all right.

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So eventually the Montana 
Supreme Court came down and was 

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like, no, they're not mineral 
rights because of everything I 

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just talked about. 
So that came down, which means 

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they were able to finally sell 
the fossil to North Carolina 

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State. 
It's with paleontologist I 

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admire a lot. 
Doctor Lindsay Zano is leading 

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the charge on this and one of 
the main preparators is a friend

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of mine, Nikki Simon. 
Amazing human. 

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So I know it's in good hands 
now, but the question has been 

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so did this juvenile T Rex and 
this triceratoid, were they 

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actually dueling? 
Were they actually fighting or 

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did they just get washed in 
together? 

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Now the official stance by Zano 
is that, well, we haven't 

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actually studied the specimen 
yet, it is still very actively 

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being prepped. 
I'm pretty sure they have a live

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feed that you can go watch it be
prepped in real time. 

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The slowest live feed. 
Like I hate prep work so I find 

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it very. 
I find it very actually. 

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Go ahead and scroll to the first
picture to see how it was at 

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least when Nat Geo got an image 
of it. 

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See I vaguely when I remember 
this story I remember seeing 

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pictures of some black bones and
like just always some dude in a 

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cowboy hat leaning over them. 
I don't know if it was. 

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Right. 
Like I don't know if it was the 

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same guy or if it was just like 
classic white guy and a cowboy 

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hat. 
Like could have been a stock 

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image. 
Like that is the stock image 

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from Montana, I think. 
But I remember the fossil being 

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better prepped than this. 
So apparently we loaded up in my

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mind. 
Interesting. 

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That is not what it was. 
Yes. 

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No, not especially to sell it 
for what they were trying to 

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sell it for is also really 
interesting. 

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It's like buying something that 
you have to do years of work on.

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I guess that's like me trying 
to. 

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Find a house right now, Tesla, 
it's in 16 pieces. 

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You have to put it together. 
Yeah. 

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Oh, and no, we're not giving you
a break in the price. 

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Actually we're trying to sell it
for the most of fossils ever 

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been sold for before. 
We do not know. 

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We don't know how much that that
they purchased it for. 

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So that is kind of a secret, but
they have kept it. 

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Yeah. 
They, I mean, incredible work 

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with the friends group that they
had to bring together to raise 

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enough funds. 
And as someone who is in 

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development, I'm like damn. 
Yeah, who are those friends? 

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I want those friends. 
I want that money. 

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Yeah, I definitely. 
OK. 

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So of course, the other reason 
that this specimen is very 

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controversial is because it's a 
juvenile T Rex. 

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So therefore it is potentially 
going to be informative into the

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nano tyrannis debate that we've 
touched on before. 

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But again, this is this idea 
that a very, very small but 

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vocal group of dinosaur 
paleontologists have stated that

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there is a pig me tyrannosaur 
present in the Hell Creek 

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formation. 
And not just tea. 

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Did you just say? 
Pig me or pick me. 

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That is how they describe nano 
tyrannis, pig me tyrannis. 

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OK like small, not like pick me,
not like I'm the best. 

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I'm not like other 
Tyrannosaurus. 

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Rexes sorry, that's my Nope. 
I mean it is that too. 

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They think that and it's pig me 
yes and yeah, because this is 

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associated with, you know, like 
Bob Baker and stuff and so he 

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loves a good miniature. 
Anyway, not very many people are

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on the nano Tyrannus train. 
The folks that are very vocal 

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though, So you hear a lot about 
it. 

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Those are the folks who've been 
a big proponent and marketing 

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this and trying to sell it for a
lot. 

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So I just I anytime that there's
money involved with the 

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scientific opinion, I just a big
grain of salt, right? 

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I don't know if what their 
intentions are, but that is one 

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of the reasons that dinosaur 
paleontologists are excited 

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about this specimen is it's yet 
another sample size to go into 

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this stupid debate about if 
there was another T Rex out 

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there or a smaller tyrannosaur 
out there. 

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Or if what most folks think is 
that it is a juvenile T Rex, 

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right? 
Like we just find we don't find 

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just adults. 
So then some folks are like, 

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well, it wasn't collected as a 
scientific specimen, so it is 

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worthless. 
That's what Jack Warner said, 

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which I find very funny coming 
from him because I had to clean 

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up his collections in office 
after him. 

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And let me tell you about poor 
scientific quality. 

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So I think that's a big, you 
know, and it is really 

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interesting. 
Zano and her team are going back

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out to the original site to 
understand it in context of the 

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geology to be able to answer 
that question better. 

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So some really cool stuff is 
going to be coming from it. 

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But honestly, you know, it's 
it's been very much marketed as 

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they are fighting, fighting to 
the death dinosaurs. 

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And we really have no freaking 
clue about that yet. 

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So we're, we're, we're still, 
we're still out on that. 

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Like, that is a lump of mud with
like a dinosaur draped on top of

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it. 
And the only reason that I can 

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believe that there's more than 
one is that there appears to be 

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too many legs. 
But like, it's just a bunch of 

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legs coming out of a lump of 
mud. 

227
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,800
I feel like ascribing anything 
to this at this point is pretty 

228
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,680
pretty. 
You're reading into it too much.

229
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,840
So if it's not 2 dinosaurs 
fighting, what could it be? 

230
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,960
Amy, what is it? 
What could it be? 

231
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,440
It could. 
Again, it could just be absolute

232
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,640
happenstance. 
It could just be that they died 

233
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:09,320
near each other or they were 
both in the same debris flow. 

234
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,280
They were both in the same 
depositional environment. 

235
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:13,840
They were both in the same 
river. 

236
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,000
We've talked about this, right? 
I mean, this is the sturgeon 

237
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,880
too. 
It's like, was it purposefully 

238
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,760
up that hydrosaur's ass or did 
it just get shoved there by 

239
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,160
nature And the beauty that is 
nature? 

240
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,560
So great the the the dueling 
dinosaurs is not helpful in 

241
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:37,080
terms of having a solid answer 
on if this is just how they were

242
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,200
buried or if this is actually an
interaction. 

243
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:45,960
So what are some other examples 
of true interactions, if there 

244
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,640
are any? 
If you really want to know more 

245
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,800
about like whether or not these 
organisms interacted, I mean, 

246
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,040
there's going to be cases where 
you can never ever prove one way

247
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,920
or another. 
There is, however, there are 

248
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:04,120
cases where you can at least 
strongly suggest because you a 

249
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,640
have a fully prepped specimen or
a way to look inside of the 

250
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,480
specimen, like the example I'm 
going to talk about. 

251
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,000
And you have like forensic 
evidence, right? 

252
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,840
It's not like they wrote like, 
love notes to one another if 

253
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,200
they were all hanging out, like 
you have to have some sort of 

254
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,800
evidence of interaction. 2 
animals being next to each other

255
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,680
dead doesn't mean that they 
were, you know, fighting one 

256
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,480
another, right? 
So the example that I'm going to

257
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,080
talk about next is significantly
better studied. 

258
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,680
It is not controversial. 
It's just very, very cool. 

259
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,920
And it's jealous, not dinosaurs,
which is also a real big point 

260
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,400
in its favor. 
That's one of the reasons why 

261
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,280
it's cool. 
Yeah, yeah. 

262
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,080
This one kind of blew up a 
little bit I think like two 

263
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,320
years ago. 
It's a story of two different 

264
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,880
species of animals found 
preserved in the same Burrow. 

265
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,040
So the two different animals are
Thronaxodon, which is a 

266
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:08,920
synodont, which is like a fox 
sized, not yet a mammal, kind of

267
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,680
fucked up looking carnivorous, 
maybe thing land dwelling, which

268
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,480
is important because the other 
animal it was found with is 

269
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,680
Bruma Stega, which is a Temnis 
bundle, which is a kind of an 

270
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,440
amphibian, I think not 
officially an amphibian, but 

271
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,480
they look like a giant 
salamander sort of thing, right?

272
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,160
That's that's what a Temnis 
bundle is. 

273
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,040
And they concluded that I did 
like this part of the paper. 

274
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,880
They concluded that Bruma Stega 
was in fact aquatic because, you

275
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,120
know, I don't think that anybody
knew that for sure, but they 

276
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,360
guessed. 
But they said that because there

277
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,040
was too much cartilage, like 
there were too many spaces 

278
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,920
between its bones, and so it had
to be an aquatic. 

279
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,960
An aquatic. 
Salivator gravity would have 

280
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,080
just just destroyed this poor 
creature. 

281
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,440
Flippity flopping around on 
land. 

282
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,200
So this borough, it comes to us 
from the Carew Formation of 

283
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,400
Africa, and it is part of the 
Triassic. 

284
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,320
So right after the Permotriassic
extinction, which, you know, 

285
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,880
huge carbon dioxide, very, very 
hot. 

286
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,040
That said, the Triassic still 
generally regarded as a super 

287
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,560
shitty time to be alive, just 
really, really hot. 

288
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:27,040
Probably you had to be good at a
dealing with lots of heat and B,

289
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,480
dealing with long periods of 
time where that heat kills off 

290
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,520
all of your food. 
So there's a lot of expectation 

291
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,480
that a lot of these different 
animals were probably pretty 

292
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,560
good at things like either 
burrowing or stealing other 

293
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,560
animals Burrows. 
And if you look at the Karoo 

294
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,800
formation, there's a lot of 
Burrows. 

295
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,160
Like, there's tons and tons of 
Burrows in this particular 

296
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,080
fossil formation. 
Some have animals in them, some 

297
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,200
do not. 
Thranaxodon is known from a 

298
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,000
couple of other Triassic sites 
and at least one Triassic Burrow

299
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,280
where they found it curled up 
just in its Burrow as if it was 

300
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,480
asleep before it died. 
Cute. 

301
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,720
Yeah. 
At rest. 

302
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,599
Yeah, at rest. 
So it's not clear necessarily 

303
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:12,720
whether Thronoxodon was capable 
of long periods of hibernation. 

304
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,520
I guess they have done some 
studies where they've looked at 

305
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,720
the bones of Thronoxodon and 
they don't find basically like 

306
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,160
tree ring like structures that 
indicate that they were dormant 

307
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,240
for long periods of time. 
But we've talked about this 

308
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,520
before on the show. 
A lot of mammals are capable of 

309
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,720
doing torpor where they're down 
for a couple hours, they're down

310
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,240
for a couple days, they're 
they're resting, they're not 

311
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,680
wasting a lot of energy, which 
is, it's the whole point of 

312
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,240
hibernation or estivation, which
is what you usually call it when

313
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,720
it's in the summer, which is 
probably more likely what you 

314
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,240
would have had here because it 
was hot as hail. 

315
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,080
So through an accident, we know 
they've been found in Burrows, 

316
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,760
not clear if they were making 
them, but they were at least in 

317
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,280
them. 
Brummastega not not so much, 

318
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,840
right? 
So we have these two animals, 

319
00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,200
they're pretty similar in size. 
So they're about fox sized for 

320
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,600
both of them. 
Brummastega is slightly longer 

321
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,120
and they are inside a very small
borough. 

322
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:09,000
The size of the borough is kind 
of important because that 

323
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,400
suggests that the Burmistega was
not shoved into it with the 

324
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,640
force of water, right? 
OK. 

325
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,320
There had to be a like an 
intentional entrance on the 

326
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,840
behalf of the the Burmistega 
can't just be like what 

327
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,720
potentially the dueling 
dinosaurs are. 

328
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,480
There's more evidence to it. 
You guys can't see that Amy is 

329
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,400
tilting your head kind of 
thinking about that, but. 

330
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,520
Just like, is it easier for 
like, water to shove you in a 

331
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,400
hole when you're already a weird
amphibian who's not supposed to 

332
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,520
be borrowing? 
Sure. 

333
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,920
Is it hard for yourself to? 
Squish your worthless body into 

334
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,200
how? 
Slippery was it? 

335
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,360
Are we talking like hagfish 
level goo? 

336
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:48,360
Was this hole well looped like 
these are? 

337
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,840
Well, the thought is no, in part
because the Nexodon is 

338
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,040
terrestrial, so that said. 
They were right. 

339
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,520
Buried in what? 
Our flood deposits. 

340
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,800
So if you look at the sediment 
of this Burrow, you can see the 

341
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,400
bottom of it has what they just 
described as basically like 

342
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,360
loose shitty sediment that they 
think the animals were just kind

343
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:14,320
of walking around on and 
scrabbling around on. 

344
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,760
And then you have some thick 
sandstone deposits that cover 

345
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,960
most of the body that they think
was just like a big flood rush. 

346
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,600
And then you have some slight 
layers of sandstone and it finds

347
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,160
upwards. 
So basically you have like a 

348
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,360
slowing down of a flood event. 
So whether or not it was shoved 

349
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,960
in that way is, you know, I, I, 
I believe that they probably 

350
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,800
didn't for some of the reasons 
that I'm going to talk about in 

351
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,240
a second, but it at least was 
covered up by a flood. 

352
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:43,800
And then they were entombed 
together. 

353
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,840
And the only reason that they 
were found is these scientists 

354
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,800
pulled out this Burrow. 
They noticed that there were 

355
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,040
some bones sticking out of it. 
And instead of just going 

356
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,160
through and like chipping away 
and cleaning it, they also 

357
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,360
didn't want to do that. 
So they used synchotron imaging,

358
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,520
which, yeah. 
So what do you know about 

359
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,440
synchrotron imaging, 'cause I 
know very little, Yeah, yeah. 

360
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,200
Yeah, I had to deal with this a 
little bit at Museum of the 

361
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,000
Rockies, too. 
We did not have a synchotron, 

362
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,280
but there was a PhD student at 
MSU at the time working with a 

363
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,880
dinosaur paleontologist there, 
and he was looking at this PhD 

364
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,640
student was looking at Truodon 
eggs. 

365
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,080
I'm sure he's like, yeah, I'm 
pretty sure he's like published 

366
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,880
on this. 
Like this is common knowledge. 

367
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,720
I don't know why I'm pausing. 
He was just looking at at 

368
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,040
Troodon eggs and trying to 
figure out if there's embryos 

369
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,720
inside. 
And so he got. 

370
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,480
Permission to take. 
This like a certain other person

371
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,400
known from there. 
Yeah, seriously. 

372
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,640
Right. 
So he was able to take it to the

373
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,560
Berkeley Synchrotron, which I 
have heard is like this giant 

374
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,840
room that literally has this 
very circular kind of system 

375
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,480
that's spray, you know, doing 
all of the intense imagery, 

376
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,240
intense lasers and danger 
things. 

377
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,440
I don't know. 
But I do know that it leads to 

378
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,600
even more precise, like with a 
micro CT, you can get like down 

379
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,920
to the point some millimeters. 
And I think with synchrotron you

380
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,640
can get even greater detail than
that. 

381
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,040
However, what I heard from him 
was the hardest part is then you

382
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,800
have the data and you have to 
process the data to actually 

383
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,760
generate your images. 
And that is the part that, from 

384
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,560
what I heard from him at least, 
was insane. 

385
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,560
And he was actually building an 
AI system to do it for him. 

386
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,880
Kind of probably like what you 
were doing with your PhD 

387
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:34,200
morphometric stuff, because it 
was too long for him as an 

388
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,680
individual to process all that 
data in that time frame. 

389
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,040
So that's what I know about a 
synchrotron. 

390
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:44,080
Yeah, so they, they ran through 
a synchrotron and they did find 

391
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,720
that I, I'm not, they didn't 
quite describe it. 

392
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,560
It's, I think it's different 
bone, like the bone is a 

393
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,840
different density than the rock.
And so that's why you can see it

394
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,080
popping out. 
But there's some, there's some 

395
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,720
difference. 
And I think they had to do some 

396
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,800
hand carving of the the data. 
And then I think they had some 

397
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,600
algorithm that was pulling out a
lot of the rest of it, but they 

398
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,400
found, oops, too much bone. 
It can't just be through an 

399
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,200
axidone. 
And sure enough, there was also 

400
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,600
Brima Stega. 
So it's like just like an 

401
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,720
accompaniment to a fossil that 
they already had seen and had 

402
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,520
been expecting, which I think is
kind of cool, right? 

403
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:19,640
Like. 
I think it's cool. 

404
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,080
Extra bonus. 
My immediate question though, is

405
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,480
the synchotron's shit, as far as
I know, is advanced and 

406
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,920
expensive. 
So is Trinaxodon so special and 

407
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,560
like unknown that it's. 
I'm just curious about the steps

408
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,480
that they took that led to using
a synchotron, I guess. 

409
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,280
Like, are these, you know, is 
this? 

410
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,080
Yeah, yeah, they did it. 
That's my reaction. 

411
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,520
They just said that they found 
it kind of incidentally. 

412
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,280
So I'm not sure why they decided
to do it. 

413
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,600
I mean, it seems more convenient
to do that than to prepare it 

414
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,600
out if you're not also the 
person who then has to, like, 

415
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,240
carve out each slice of your 
enormous data file. 

416
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:57,880
I'm sure they made a student do 
it. 

417
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:01,680
That's just as pretty sure 
that's how a lot of these labs 

418
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,440
go, right? 
Yeah. 

419
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:04,960
So you get some different 
sensities. 

420
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,480
You can segment them out. 
And So what they found are these

421
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,800
beautiful, beautiful images of 
these two specimens. 

422
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,600
The Thronaxodon, which again, it
looks kind of, it looks very dog

423
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,840
like, is kind of curled up a 
little bit. 

424
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,480
It's kind of got its arms 
underneath it, but it's got its 

425
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,000
head turned at a real weird, 
somewhat unnatural angle. 

426
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,760
It's also got some broken ribs. 
Its ribs are broken on the left 

427
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,720
hand side, which I think is 
where it's shoved up against the

428
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,840
Burrow. 
When you look at the the broken 

429
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,240
parts of the neck and you look 
at the broken parts of the rib, 

430
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,240
they are kind of these really 
like sheer fractures. 

431
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,280
They're basically the sort of 
things that you get post mortem.

432
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,200
Like this wasn't something that 
it wasn't like slammed up by 

433
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,480
Bruma Stega, who just really 
wanted to get into that Burrow. 

434
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,440
It seems as the. 
Body slam. 

435
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,760
Yeah, it probably wasn't a body 
slam. 

436
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,680
It probably was. 
Well, it was a body slam, but it

437
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,120
was a you're in already a body, 
you're probably already dead 

438
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,760
sort of slam through mistega. 
On the other hand, Bruma Stega 

439
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,640
isn't so through an accident is 
laying on its belly. 

440
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,120
It's very cute other than the 
whole broken neck and broken 

441
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,760
ribs thing. 
And Bruma Stega is laying upside

442
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,720
down so it's got it's tummy 
facing upwards. 

443
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,360
It's like half. 
It's honestly like if you sleep 

444
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,840
with a toddler, I think it's 
kind of similar right? 

445
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,480
Where like Bruma Stega is upside
down and on top of Thranaxonon 

446
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,240
and a shoved Thranaxon kind of 
off into the side. 

447
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,400
It's shocking that there's not 
like a leg in Thranaxonon's 

448
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,440
face. 
That would be the the full 

449
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,840
toddler sleeping experience. 
But so true, right? 

450
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,240
So Brimstega is upside down. 
Brimstega also has broken ribs, 

451
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,760
but those ribs show signs of 
green bone fractures. 

452
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,360
It looks like they were broken 
while Brimstega was alive. 

453
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,600
Also, some of them are healed. 
So some of them show signs of 

454
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,520
like coming back together and 
healing. 

455
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,400
Some of them even show their 
partial fractures as if it was 

456
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,320
pushing up against tissue, 
right? 

457
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,000
Because you know, you don't just
have air beneath your ribs. 

458
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,400
You have meat and gross stuff. 
So yeah, just gunk. 

459
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,640
So the idea is that Bruma Stega 
probably got battered ribs 

460
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,480
before coming into the Burrow 
long enough ago that it was 

461
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,880
probably still healing from 
them, but it wasn't necessarily 

462
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,080
what killed it. 
There are also two puncture 

463
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,240
marks on Bruma Stega's, like, 
eye socket or two holes. 

464
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:31,920
They don't go all the way 
through. 

465
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,400
And the paleontologist mentioned
that, like, you know, 

466
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,480
synchrotron is great. 
They didn't get quite good 

467
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,640
enough resolution to determine 
if they are tooth marks or if 

468
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,960
they are like dissolution pits 
or if they are like some sort of

469
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,480
infestation. 
So there are some dots. 

470
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,560
They're not the right size to be
the Thrun Accidon's teeth. 

471
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,480
They are too big and they're too
far apart. 

472
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,800
But it does have some mysterious
holes on its head. 

473
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,920
So Brumastega healing from an 
injury, Thrinaxodon curled up as

474
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,480
if it's sleeping inside a Burrow
that is presumably Thrinaxodons 

475
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,280
and not Brumastegas. 
The thought is that Thrinaxodon 

476
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,920
was already in there. 
Brumastega joins the chat, I 

477
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,880
guess, and comes on inside the 
Burrow. 

478
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,320
And so the question is, was 
Bruma Stega dragged in by thin 

479
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,320
Accidon? 
Was it shoved in by water, or 

480
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,920
did it come in voluntarily? 
And was thin accidon still alive

481
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,360
when it came in? 
Right, because you could have 

482
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:34,680
had thronaxodon die. 
That's true beforehand. 

483
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,960
Right, just be hanging out in 
the crypt. 

484
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,200
Yeah, right. 
For sure. 

485
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,960
Peaceful so. 
They don't think probably that 

486
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,080
it was dragged in because a it's
a pretty tight squeeze. 

487
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,960
I'm not sure how Thronaxodon 
would have dragged it in and 

488
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,640
then turned itself around. 
But also the the holes on the 

489
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:50,720
head don't really seem to match 
it. 

490
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,680
So it doesn't seem likely that 
Thronaxodon was dragging Berma 

491
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,080
Sega in. 
So you can probably get rid of 

492
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,760
that one. 
The thing that they brought up 

493
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,640
in the paper is you know if you 
die in a Burrow, your bodies 

494
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,720
typically mummify, right? 
You dry out and desiccate which 

495
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,560
makes you stiff. 
So if you are dead in a Burrow, 

496
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,600
you dry out. 
You get stiff if water or Bruma,

497
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,000
Sega or whatever comes in. 
It might shove you up against 

498
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,680
the wall, but it might also 
shove you up against the wall in

499
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,520
a way that is crackly like 
shoving jerky against a wall, 

500
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:24,840
not a steak. 
Yes. 

501
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,000
Yeah. 
Right, right, right for those 

502
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,400
poor, vulnerable little Braille 
ribs in there. 

503
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,120
Yes. 
So you you could be mummified. 

504
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,040
You would also have something 
like that if the animal had 

505
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,480
recently died and was going 
through rigor mortis, but if 

506
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,120
they had gotten through the 
rigor mortis phase, they'd be 

507
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,000
limp again. 
So there's like 2 stages of 

508
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,920
limpness. 
There's you're alive or very 

509
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,480
recently dead, then you get 
stiff for rigor mortis, then you

510
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,240
soften up again and then you 
mummify, right? 

511
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,920
So when you look at both 
Bermastega and Thronaxodon, both

512
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,520
of them look soft because their 
tails are kind of both, like 

513
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,720
they look like they're spooning 
basically. 

514
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,040
And like curled up towards the 
entrance of the borough, so it 

515
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,680
looks like they were like still 
floppy. 

516
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,160
So either both of them died at 
the exact right moment so that 

517
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,200
they were neither of them were 
rigor mortisy, or they were both

518
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,400
alive at the same time, which 
the authors kind of argue is 

519
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,160
probably the more realistic 
version because otherwise it's a

520
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,000
very small timeline to have 
those two animals coexist. 

521
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,160
So what they think happened is 
that Trinaxodon was curled up in

522
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,360
his Burrow brew mistega, 
probably because it was still 

523
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,840
healing from an injury. 
This is also a juvenile, by the 

524
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,920
way. 
So this is some dumb teenager 

525
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:54,080
crawls into the Burrow just 
shoving its way in there and 

526
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,800
then they the Trinaxodon either 
was they they think it just 

527
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,120
didn't bother kicking. 
It or it like right or it just 

528
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,280
happened that the next second 
was the the sedimentation that 

529
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,400
berries. 
Yeah, yeah. 

530
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,680
Like there I brought a flood. 
There's something behind me. 

531
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,760
Can I, can I just scooch in 
here? 

532
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,200
Excuse me? 
And then they think that once 

533
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,720
the flood came in, that's what 
knocked Bruma Sega over. 

534
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,320
So they did bring up that this 
isn't entirely unknown. 

535
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,880
That even though you would think
that, like, an animal who digs a

536
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,080
Burrow isn't going to be super 
stoked if other animals come 

537
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,960
into the Burrow, sometimes when 
you're hibernating or you're in 

538
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,560
torpor, you are too tired to 
give a shit. 

539
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,720
Yeah. 
And the example that they gave 

540
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,520
is there are some Badgers in 
Poland that have been known to 

541
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:56,880
just let it lie if their Burrows
get invaded by raccoon dogs, 

542
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,600
which is an animal that I didn't
know existed. 

543
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,760
Yeah, me neither. 
I should know that I literally 

544
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,920
studied dogs, yeah. 
Yeah, I mean, I, I feel like 

545
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,080
from the name, I have a pretty 
solid idea of what it looks like

546
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,960
and what it is. 
So that's the thought on Bruma, 

547
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,680
Stega and Thronaxodon. 
There's still other potential 

548
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,760
scenarios. 
You know, it could be of course,

549
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,120
like pretty closely after rigor 
mortis, so a couple days post 

550
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,120
death. 
But yeah, they think that the 

551
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,000
most realistic 1, and I agree, 
is that Thronaxodon was just 

552
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,920
like I'm napping and then they 
died together. 

553
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,720
That's I hear it's kind of 
peaceful. 

554
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,240
Yeah. 
I mean, yeah, why not Sure, 

555
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,320
sure. 
And I, I could also understand 

556
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,440
if like maybe whatever event was
happening that displaced 

557
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,240
Bremestega from its watery 
place, I'd like encouraged it to

558
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,680
seek out this shelter is the 
event that then buried them or I

559
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,920
don't know, you know, like 
that's where I get into a lot of

560
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,360
it. 
It's just like, how, how were 

561
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,320
you preserved like that? 
Like how was that moment? 

562
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,160
So often I I go on the side of 
no, I think it was just random 

563
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,680
because I just it seems so hard 
for in this, you know, 

564
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,880
fossilization so rare already. 
To also preserve an actual 

565
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,400
interaction is fascinating. 
It's fascinating with a cozy 

566
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,280
little, you know, salamander 
friend to just get through. 

567
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,080
Flipping over. 
Yeah, I mean, that's relatable 

568
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:34,600
too. 
Yeah, so that's the that's an 

569
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,400
example of two organisms that 
yeah, we we think at least there

570
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,840
was pretty close to like either 
both of them are alive or like 

571
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,400
it was just the world's most 
coincidentity of coincidences. 

572
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,280
But a little bit more evidence 
than for the dueling dinosaurs. 

573
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,440
A little bit less dramatic of a 
story too, because it's not they

574
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,960
were fighting. 
It's fuck it, fine, you can 

575
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,480
stay. 
Which feels a little bit more 

576
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,840
realistic as well. 
I mean really when you think 

577
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,960
about it, when are you most 
likely to be fossilized? 

578
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,600
When you are fighting an animal 
to stay alive or when you are 

579
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,800
napping. 
Or when you are swimming next to

580
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,840
an active volcano. 
Just saying. 

581
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:24,600
Just saying in my life, probably
the next time I like go to a tar

582
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:31,560
pit and I'm just like, let's do 
it right in for animals though, 

583
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,040
especially something that's 
going to be burrowing, right. 

584
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,440
You're already. 
And I just, yeah, I was talking 

585
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,960
to a Co worker. 
Well, Katie, our editor today, 

586
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,080
he was telling me about Prairie 
dogs and how they build the 

587
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,440
tunnels here and then some type 
of owl uses their Burrows and 

588
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,720
it's this symbiotic. 
Burrowing owls. 

589
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,560
And I'm like, if you're called a
burrowing owl, then fucking 

590
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,680
Burrow. 
Like you don't take, you don't 

591
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,520
let someone else do it and then 
take that title. 

592
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,480
But they didn't name themselves.
Talking about I thought that you

593
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,320
love a lazy thing. 
I'm just. 

594
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,040
Jealous, just jealous always 
that I don't think of this. 

595
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,360
Well, OK, so we've talked about 
a probably not actually 

596
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,280
associated, but just died 
together or like we're preserved

597
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:15,440
together. 
Now we're talking about one 

598
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,920
where it's like, well, OK, they 
probably had maybe a very minor 

599
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,200
interaction and did know that 
they were on some level in each 

600
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,200
other's space. 
And now I'm going to tell you 

601
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,080
about one that is no, they were 
fucking fighting. 

602
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,080
Like there's just. 
There's no. 

603
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,520
There's no question about it, 
but I heard all about it. 

604
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,840
Folks probably have heard about 
it too. 

605
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,640
It's this incredible fossil from
China that features a mammal 

606
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,640
full blown fighting with a 
Cetacosaurus, which is a 

607
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,440
dinosaur kind of related to 
Triceratops. 

608
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,400
It's a ceratopsian. 
And they, there is legit 

609
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,480
interaction in this fossil. 
And it is, it's, it's very 

610
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,560
fascinating. 
So yes, let's see. 

611
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,560
This is from the Lower 
Cretaceous of China. 

612
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:04,280
This is Rapeno mammis robustus, 
which is a type of, I looked at 

613
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:09,679
gobiconodontid mammal, which is 
a again, a non nontherian 

614
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:11,639
mammal, kind of like what I 
think you're talking about with 

615
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:13,880
Thronoxodon. 
So these are, you know, these 

616
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,760
are mammals that were yours are 
much older, but this one is the 

617
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,800
one that was around from like 
180 to like, I don't know, 90 

618
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,520
million years ago or so. 
And it was thought to be 

619
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,080
carnivorous. 
And again, nontherian is so the 

620
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,480
theory in mammals today are US 
like central mammals and 

621
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,800
marsupials, but not monotremes 
the platypus. 

622
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,040
And. 
Echidnas. 

623
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,320
They're also technically non 
theory. 

624
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,679
No nipples is that's the cut off
there? 

625
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,239
Probably. 
This is a nippleless mammal. 

626
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:48,199
Try to wrap your head around 
that guy. 

627
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,280
It probably excreted milk just 
like a platypus. 

628
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,400
This is so true. 
Now I'm like scrolling through 

629
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,960
the page to be like nipples. 
Tell me about their. 

630
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,600
Nipples, The nipples. 
The nipples, I imagine, were not

631
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,360
fossilized. 
Well, they couldn't have been. 

632
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,480
It didn't have them. 
And I think it also means that 

633
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,320
these mammals were laying eggs. 
That's a pretty big indicator 

634
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,360
too. 
Is that the very important but 

635
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,120
hours of entertainment with the 
nipples? 

636
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:21,960
Yeah, it's so pretty. 
Good times. 

637
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:29,000
So we've got this this little 
nippleless mammal, Rapeno 

638
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,160
Mammus, which is funny because 
Mammus means mammal and nipples.

639
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,120
But you know, the Rapeno Mammus 
is thought to be possum sized, 

640
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,480
which when I read that, I keep 
seeing that places and I'm like 

641
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,280
there's a lot of fucking possums
out there guys. 

642
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,000
It's actually not that helpful. 
But I think generally like the 

643
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,560
Virginia possum that we see here
in the United States. 

644
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,640
So we're talking like maybe a 
big cat sized animal and then 

645
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,640
sit. 
Sotakosaurus is a pretty 

646
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,800
relatively small dinosaur, 
honestly. 

647
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,080
Sotakosaurus is very well known 
from China and Mongolia famously

648
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,400
for its preserved cloaca, which 
we need to do a full deep dive 

649
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,120
on that cloak. 
Legitimately. 

650
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,080
They were found together. 
Oh, the other thing I love about

651
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,520
Sotakosaurus is I I know because
they're so fucking many of them 

652
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,440
and they've been preserved in 
such great detail. 

653
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,000
They really do know that they 
had like this Mohawk kind of 

654
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,760
thing on just its tail. 
Like it's not on the the neck or

655
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,120
the back. 
It's like the tail is just got 

656
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,960
this like crazy spines and 
whatnot that come off of it that

657
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,240
make it have a really special 
kind of David Bowie flair that I

658
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:37,000
appreciate and like a full blown
beak. 

659
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,360
I mean, it's just a weird 
looking animal. 

660
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,440
And then found in this what they
call a Mortal Kombat. 

661
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,040
So scroll past the one fighting 
Dinos, whatever you didn't see 

662
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,800
that. 
And you can see this specimen 

663
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,640
here in the first picture shows 
you the actual specimen, kind of

664
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,960
a bird's eye view with a 
reconstruction of what they 

665
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,400
would have looked like in life. 
And then we'll get to that. 

666
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,880
Next one. 
So what's really interesting is 

667
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,280
that there is one of the legs of
the mammal is trapped underneath

668
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,680
the Cytacosaurus and and his 
teeth are in like its rib cage 

669
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,520
like in its OK if we Scroll down
you can see another picture that

670
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,600
shows you from the paper exactly
what I mean by interacting there

671
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,560
are Oh. 
Wow. 

672
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,760
It is like in there, it's got 
one of its hands, so one of its 

673
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,920
4 limbs. 
Badger behavior. 

674
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,600
Just fucking digging in. 
Nothing is going to stop this 

675
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,200
animal. 
Yeah, it's trying to Burrow into

676
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,080
the Cetacosaurus. 
FYI. 

677
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,880
I the back doors the easier 
entry. 

678
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,520
I would go that way my friend. 
I don't know what you're doing 

679
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,200
trying. 
To get through the fucking rib 

680
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,200
cage. 
Good luck. 

681
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,440
So like literally, so one of the
one of the hands is in the jaw, 

682
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,880
the lower jaw of the 
Cetechosaurus like like it's 

683
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,560
grabbing its mouth and pulling 
its jaw down, which my son does 

684
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,080
do to me sometimes and he has 
like baby strength. 

685
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,720
It's. 
It's fish shucking the 

686
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,040
Cicadosaurus. 
Yes, it's noodling. 

687
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,000
With its entire body, yeah, I 
mean, it's got most of its body 

688
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,600
just in there. 
Yeah, it. 

689
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,560
Failed. 
It failed horribly. 

690
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,240
And so then the other, the other
like it's got a leg that is 

691
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:30,040
embedded in the lower hind limb 
that's wrapped around like the 

692
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,040
tib fib. 
And then the teeth and the mouth

693
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:40,040
are literally still embedded 
into the Yeah, the, I think it's

694
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,080
it they, they talked about it 
being like the chest or the, 

695
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,280
yeah, the, the kind of belly rib
cage area of the set. 

696
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,720
So I mean, this is like full 
blown everything that's very, 

697
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:53,040
very much connected. 
Now, what's really interesting 

698
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,200
about this is that, well, 
there's a lot of really 

699
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,520
interesting stuff about this. 
It was discovered also probably 

700
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,800
by private, you know, folks who 
we don't understand the precise 

701
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,280
locality information. 
We don't know exactly the 

702
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,800
provenance for this. 
That seems to be that actually 

703
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,120
was part of the problem with 
dueling dinosaurs too, which is 

704
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,120
interesting that we see this in 
these frenemies situations is 

705
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,720
that a lot of times they're 
discovered by private folks and 

706
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:22,720
then we do lose a little bit of 
scientific information because 

707
00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:26,000
of that sometimes. 
If it wasn't taken in context, 

708
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,360
it also leads to the concern 
that it is fake, that it's fraud

709
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,160
and has been a faked specimen. 
However, I can't find anything 

710
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,520
that shows that. 
It looks like this has been 

711
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,520
thoroughly researched. 
There are ways to know if bone 

712
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,000
has been faked or not. 
A lot of, I mean UV light, 

713
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,960
X-rays, CT scans, there are ways
to know if this is faked or not.

714
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,680
And so far from what I'm reading
and what I've heard from the 

715
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,520
community is no, it seems to be 
very, very much legit. 

716
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,000
And again, it's one of these 
situations where it's debated. 

717
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,720
So where were they actually 
interacting? 

718
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,680
Or where? 
They just discovered like this 

719
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,200
with this one. 
I feel like they were, they were

720
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,840
interacting and I feel like I 
know the vibe as well of that 

721
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,120
interaction and it wasn't 
positive or friendly. 

722
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,760
And just to kind of go off that 
point of fakes, it's not just 

723
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,400
that, like could they have made 
fake bones and put them in place

724
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,600
like literally the glue that 
they would have used glows under

725
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,480
UV light like there's and you 
could do chemical tests on that 

726
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,680
stuff as well. 
So if there's not been a paper 

727
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,720
saying it's a fake, I would 
assume it's not a fake. 

728
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,080
Even though it looks fake as 
hell, it looks fucking. 

729
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,640
Fake. 
Yeah, it really does. 

730
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,680
It's just like a level of 
preservation that is very 

731
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,680
unheard of. 
However, it's very known for 

732
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,280
this site. 
So this is a Cretaceous site in 

733
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:51,520
China. 
Let me pull up my. 

734
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,640
Or where we think This site is I
guess, right? 

735
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,320
Well, we do know generally 
because of again, just the the 

736
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,080
matrix and everything they do 
know actually the exact unit of 

737
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,960
a formation, the Jehol group of 
yeah, this is one of the Jehol 

738
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,240
group fossils. 
So these are some of the most 

739
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,840
best preserved fossils that we 
know in the world. 

740
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,800
What's really interesting is 
that some of the majority of the

741
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,920
Jehol fossils are these 
two-dimensional compression 

742
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,520
fossils, right? 
Like we've talked about that 

743
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,680
too. 
A lot of times you get buried 

744
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,200
and smashed. 
The reason the sturgeon was so 

745
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,040
beautifully well preserved is 
that Hadrosaur's butt hole 

746
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,880
protected it from getting 
smashed in between layers of 

747
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,400
rock and losing all of that 
delicate detail of the dookies. 

748
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,720
So that's where this is 
interesting too is some of the 

749
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:47,800
site, the fossils from the site 
are just very yeah, smash. 

750
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,840
And then some are these 
incredible 3D situation, which 

751
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,840
isn't always easy to interpret 
then how they formed. 

752
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,000
I'll just say that right now it 
looks the the consensus from the

753
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:04,000
authors is that the animals were
buried right where they died and

754
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,000
that they really do think that 
they either happened 

755
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,920
simultaneously or very, very 
close. 

756
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,320
So I am trying to understand if 
they think it was. 

757
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,880
I don't think they were already,
they thought they were already 

758
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,560
dead, but they it is possible 
that the mammal was scavenging 

759
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,000
the carcass of the dinosaur when
they became buried. 

760
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,000
Because we don't really see the 
Cytacasaurus doing anything 

761
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,840
back. 
It's kind of brumostagaing this.

762
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,560
It's like, take me, I deserve 
it. 

763
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,200
I'm not worthy. 
It's taking a very passive role 

764
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,960
in being eaten. 
Yes. 

765
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,400
And then there was like they 
went into this whole part where 

766
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,240
they did this phylogenetic least
squares regression where they 

767
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,480
were looking at like, is it 
plausible that a small mammal 

768
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,880
like this would be feeding on 
such a big Cytacasaurus? 

769
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,320
Because we do know that Rapeno 
Mammus eats Cytacasaurus. 

770
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,800
We have found little baby 
Cetechosaurus bones in other 

771
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,920
Rapeno mammoth specimens. 
So another interaction that's 

772
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,600
proven because it's in the 
fucking guts of another one. 

773
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,920
That's a pretty slam dunk on on 
that. 

774
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,920
But to go after something that 
was so much larger than itself 

775
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,080
is questioned. 
But then they compare it to a 

776
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,000
lot of what we've been talking 
about modern day mammals, a lot 

777
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,640
of them being mustelids, you 
know, are weasels, Badgers, 

778
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,440
Wolverines that are like, fuck 
yeah, I'm going to take down a 

779
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,560
Caribou. 
You know, I mean, these are it's

780
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,000
it's very plausible that this 
mammal was fighting with or 

781
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,440
feeding on this specimen, but 
there aren't other like there 

782
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,960
are no other tooth marks on the 
specimen either. 

783
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,200
So they didn't think that it had
been left out for scavenging all

784
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,680
that long because it seems like 
it would have already, it would 

785
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,880
have had a lot more marks by 
that too. 

786
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,120
So it really they don't think, 
they don't seem to think that it

787
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,160
was scavenging. 
They instead think that they 

788
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,160
were buried. 
Their hypothesis of that they 

789
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,480
were buried while the predation 
was going on and that they were 

790
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:03,920
entombed by this very sudden 
lahar type volcanic debris flow.

791
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:10,960
So a volcanic situation in there
too, that it actually wouldn't 

792
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,800
explain why they're so entwined 
that the left hind foot of the 

793
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,160
mammal became trapped underneath
that left leg of the dinosaur 

794
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,720
when it collapsed because of 
this kind of lahar. 

795
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,400
And they say that that's what 
would account for no more other 

796
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,160
tooth marks or indications of 
scavenging. 

797
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:31,560
I guess my point, and we'll get 
into this more is OK, so it's a 

798
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,840
lahar. 
So it's clutching on like, save 

799
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,320
me from the lahar, daddy. 
Or is this? 

800
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:38,840
Like rafting? 
Right. 

801
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,480
Is it rafting this dead 
Setakosaurus through this 

802
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,280
motherfucking debris flow again?
How did it like if OK, so the 

803
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,640
lahar is what got the one leg 
trapped underneath the 

804
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,120
Setakosaurus is the lahar what 
got its hand grasping its face 

805
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,680
and its other hand grasping its 
tip fib. 

806
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,000
Like I just have these and I 
just go to like, but how with 

807
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,640
the lahar, which I think of as a
fairly high energy situation, is

808
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,520
allowing for these to be 
preserved, preserved so 

809
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,520
exquisitely. 
I am so completely and so in 

810
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,000
articulation. 
So those are yeah. 

811
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:20,560
I'm excited to chat here when we
dive into more on how the heck 

812
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:21,760
does this happen? 
How do they? 

813
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,000
Preserve Just to give some more 
context for those of you who are

814
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,880
not looking at this photo. 
And also if you're not aware, we

815
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,920
do put these photos on our 
websites. 

816
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,960
We do forget sometimes, but we 
do eventually put them on there.

817
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,960
So the photos that we talked 
about for all the episodes are 

818
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,480
on weirdanddead.com. 
But it's kind of like like I 

819
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,720
realized that this is not the 
actual size of the animals, but 

820
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:45,880
like scaling. 
It looks like a Jack Russell 

821
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,120
going after a Great Dane. 
OK. 

822
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:53,200
And the Jack Russell has like 
curved its body so badly that it

823
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,160
is both biting the animal and 
looking at its own ass. 

824
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,000
So while it's hands are like 
akimbo, like spread eagled 

825
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,440
holding on to different things, 
which looks uncomfortable and 

826
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,920
weasels are psychotic. 
So like I know that some some 

827
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,400
predatory mammals are just weird
and they do weird things when 

828
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,400
they're attacking. 
I guess if your body is that 

829
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,960
long, maybe looking at your butt
is like a pretty regular 

830
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,640
occurrence. 
But it does look like maybe 

831
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,000
maybe it got moved a little bit.
That's kind of what I'm 

832
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,120
thinking. 
And then just clung on like an 

833
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,240
asshole while that was 
happening. 

834
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,000
But the cicadasaurus has its 
legs curled underneath it. 

835
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,440
And yeah, it looks like it just 
kind of gave up, but it doesn't 

836
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,320
look sorted or anything. 
It doesn't look like it's 

837
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,840
streamlined or was moved very 
far with the lahar, which is 

838
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,560
very interesting. 
And it couldn't have been 

839
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,320
because there's no way that it 
would have been able to be this 

840
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:50,800
pristine of just preservation 
articulation, 3D, you know, like

841
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,000
it's just yeah, that's where I 
guess it's me amigoing the 

842
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,240
transport in the burial here. 
I'm having a hard time wrapping 

843
00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:04,640
my head around, you know, I have
a geology degree and I'm just 

844
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,000
like, that's not what I remember
about lahars. 

845
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,240
I just don't remember that being
like, I'm a peaceful little 

846
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:13,520
like, oh, I'm gonna hug you with
some hot volcanic shit. 

847
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,040
So I, I just, you know, I, I 
maybe it's a blessing to not 

848
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,720
know more about lahars. 
I will say this. 

849
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,160
The only part of the paper that 
I highlighted, well, OK, I 

850
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,880
highlighted a few, is one of 
their conclusions is the new 

851
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,200
fossil thus challenges the 
common assumption that Mesozoic 

852
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,560
mammals were merely fodder for 
the ruling dinosaurs. 

853
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:42,720
I'm like, who's common? 
This is not, that's not how I 

854
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:47,240
think. 
Sure, okay, Of course there are 

855
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:49,960
mammals eating dinosaurs. 
Like a fucking course. 

856
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,160
Like that's there's so many 
different dinosaurs too. 

857
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,720
Like, yeah, some of them were 
delicious. 

858
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,200
Some of them were small, you 
know. 

859
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,920
Yeah, some were small and they 
all had small babies, so Yum. 

860
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,720
Yeah. 
So the, the thing that is, is 

861
00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:05,640
weird when you're talking about 
like ash preserving living 

862
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:11,000
animals is a, sometimes they see
it coming so they are trying to 

863
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,880
escape and B, like it, it's very
rarely going to just gently 

864
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,360
settle on them, right? 
Like it's, it's going to have 

865
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,120
some form of movement, but 
that's not always the case. 

866
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,600
So a really great example of a 
lot of animals preserved 

867
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:30,520
together in some clear 
interactions would be asphal 

868
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,760
fossil beds in Nebraska, which 
is a beautiful, beautiful fossil

869
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,760
site. 
It's from the Miocene. 

870
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,400
I think it's like 11 or 12 
million years old. 

871
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,960
And there are tons of animals, 
but they have like this really 

872
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,800
weird stratigraphy. 
So at the bottom of the site, 

873
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,680
they have kind of a sandy layer,
and they find things like 

874
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,560
salamanders and lizards. 
They find lizards inside of 

875
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,800
crane bellies, like crane the 
bird. 

876
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,120
Yeah. 
So you find a lot of small 

877
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,000
animals, Crane the bird. 
You could be thinking of a 

878
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,960
mechanical equipment. 
Yes, in the Miocene, yes. 

879
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,080
Yes, all of those. 
So you find all of these kind of

880
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,640
small animals at the bottom of 
this like sandy layer. 

881
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,480
And then you go up and you find 
this big thick ash deposit. 

882
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,040
And inside the ash deposit you 
find rhinos, just like I think 

883
00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:23,320
over 100 rhino fossils have been
found of Telioceros, one 

884
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,360
particular species. 
You do also find camels and 

885
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,960
horses, but they're not as 
commonly talked about because 

886
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,200
there's also this giant fucking 
rhino herd. 

887
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,600
They are all so beautifully 
preserved that you can see 

888
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,160
things like we now could confirm
that the the like some of the 

889
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,360
differences in their teeth were 
male versus female because you 

890
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,440
could see a fetus inside the 
female. 

891
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,480
So you could you could do all of
these insane studies, but the 

892
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,000
ash that they're in is like soft
ash that fell from the sky. 

893
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,560
And unlike this Cicadosaurus, 
they're on their sides as if 

894
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,880
they've slumped over for the 
most part. 

895
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:04,280
There's there's at least three 
cow calf pairs, SO3 Mama rhinos 

896
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,240
with their baby rhinos, 
including at least one that's in

897
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:10,960
like a nursing position, as if 
it was nursing while it died. 

898
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,920
Wow. 
But like they're on their side 

899
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:19,320
dead before the ash is covering 
them, which is kind of more more

900
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,960
what you expect with this sort 
of thing, right? 

901
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,960
Like if you're getting like a 
soft rain out of ash. 

902
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,800
It's not usually. 
Yeah, you could run the fuck 

903
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,880
away or you would have to be 
dead for it to cover you or you 

904
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,040
would have to do what happened 
to these animals, which is 

905
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,320
suffer for weeks at a time. 
Because the other thing that we 

906
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,640
see with these rhinos and with 
the camels and with the horses, 

907
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,600
one of the horse has a, has a 
full right next to it as well, 

908
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:54,160
is you see massive chunks of 
frothy kind of bubbly looking 

909
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,000
bone on all of these animals. 
Yeah, delicious. 

910
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,720
Just take your latte and then 
imagine that that's bone and 

911
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:05,240
it's growing on the distal. 
So the the portions of their 

912
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:07,240
limbs that are furthest away 
from their heart. 

913
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,200
So especially prominent in like 
the ankles, the wrists. 

914
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,880
But just like the the far end of
the bones is where you get this 

915
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,000
accumulation of like nasty 
frothy bone. 

916
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,920
I did read a study that had 
taken some isotopes from the, 

917
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,200
the, the frothy bone compared to
the regular bone and had cross 

918
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,920
compared them and found that 
maybe there was evidence that 

919
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,720
they had a tent like a, a fever 
basically when they were 

920
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:35,520
depositing that bone. 
And so that frothy bone is a 

921
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,080
really weird side effect of lung
trauma. 

922
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,400
And it turns out that this this 
happens to modern animals too, 

923
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,480
and modern people. 
It's called a hypertrophic 

924
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,600
osteopathy or osteopathy. 
However you want to emphasize 

925
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,800
that or Marie's disease. 
And if you get real fucked up 

926
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,000
lung or cardiac problems, 
sometimes they think that your 

927
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,160
platelets don't get like pulled 
out by your lungs. 

928
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,240
So your lungs have like lots and
lots of little capillary beds. 

929
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:07,640
So if you have a big old chunk 
of platelets floating through, 

930
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,000
it'll kind of pull it out and 
then it could deal with it. 

931
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,160
If you have so many problems 
that your your heart is 

932
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,400
basically shunting blood past 
the lungs, which can happen 

933
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,560
sometimes, then your platelets 
don't get taken out. 

934
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,280
They get stuck in the 
capillaries of your fingers and 

935
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,360
toes, and platelets are 
associated with a like a hormone

936
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,520
that could potentially be 
causing all of these problems. 

937
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,880
So we've seen this sort of thing
in like modern animals that have

938
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,280
lung cancer, tuberculosis, 
pneumonia, all of those things. 

939
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,400
You can get this kind of frothy 
bone growth. 

940
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,240
So did this entire herd of 
rhinos have pneumonia? 

941
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:47,480
Probably not. 
We think that it was severe 

942
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:53,320
trauma from inhaling ash for 
weeks that basically that yes, 

943
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,560
they maybe they didn't die right
away. 

944
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,000
In fact, we know they didn't die
right away because it takes a 

945
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,720
while for the bone to get that 
nasty, right? 

946
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:02,960
Right. 
Of course it's gonna take time 

947
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,280
before. 
Yeah, it's not an instant thing.

948
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,960
Yeah, so you get these animals 
are inhaling all of this ash, 

949
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:11,880
It's causing all of this trauma 
to the lungs. 

950
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,680
It's causing all of these kind 
of downstream problems. 

951
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:20,600
Their their bones are growing 
deformities and then finally 

952
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,920
they can't do it anymore and so 
they're at a watering hole and 

953
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,960
they all die together. 
So that's the more classic. 

954
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:30,960
Sorry, Jim. 
Josh. 

955
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,600
Yeah, Yeah. 
I don't know who that is, but I 

956
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,000
believe you. 
Drink the Kool-aid, the giant, 

957
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,120
the biggest mass suicide, and oh
this. 

958
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,680
Is a cult Later. 
Yeah, I know this is a cult like

959
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,840
that stuff, but there's no 
Dragons in it, so why would I? 

960
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:45,760
They are. 
There are Dragons. 

961
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,840
They're just men. 
Oh yeah. 

962
00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:50,880
That's that's. 
I don't like metaphorical ones. 

963
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,120
Thank you for listening. 
If you like the podcast, be sure

964
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,200
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965
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,360
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966
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,400
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967
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,320
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968
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:12,560
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969
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,600
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970
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,240
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971
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,360
This podcast is part of the 
Geology Podcasting Network. 

972
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,200
Produced by the traveling 
geologist Chris Spencer. 

973
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,200
Cover art provided by Chris 
Spencer and the hosts. 

974
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:31,880
Our theme song is Unlock Me by 
Prize Canal. 

975
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,600
Editing services provided by the
amazing Katie Bradley. 

976
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,040
Hosted by and researched by us, 
Amy Atwater and Megan 

977
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,480
Weatherall. 
Thanks for listening, Rigamorous

978
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:42,960
girl.