1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:06,880 You're listening to Weird and Dead, the paleontology podcast 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,120 that tells evolution's most embarrassing and bizarre 3 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:10,800 stories. I'm Megan Wetherell. 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,880 And I'm Amy Atwater, and we're two living scientists who are 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:15,800 weirdly excited about dead things. 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,000 On this episode, we dive into the disgusting digits and freaky 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,240 phalanges of dinosaurs and mammals. 8 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,200 Well, Iguanodon and Panas. It turns out that getting extra 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,360 fingers or adding on to your existing ones is not as weird as 10 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,680 the whole rest of Iguanodon's murder mittens. 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,360 Like always, our podcast is disgusting and for adults, so 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:39,800 please check the content warnings before continuing. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,120 Here we go. This is a freaky fingers 14 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:54,840 episode. I'm really excited to hear how 15 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,480 all of these can I say inner finger. 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,600 I mean, you just did, so I guess I can't stop you. 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,320 We're going to go on a prehistoric safari of weird 18 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:12,280 fingers in fossil blood, bull and living creatures as well. 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,440 Actually quite a bit of living creatures too. 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,040 But we're going to start today's journey with a dinosaur that I 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,560 knew nothing about two years ago. 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,760 And then I started working at Dinosaur Ridge, and now I know a 23 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,520 lot about Iguanodon. Iguanodon. 24 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:36,720 OK, Iguanodon. It's a dinosaur, all right. 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:41,600 Iguanodon is interesting because it is one of the first dinosaurs 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,720 to receive a name. There was a summer camper today 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,920 telling me about how the first dinosaur to be named is 28 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:53,920 Megalosaurus, and I told him he was wrong, but I said don't look 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:55,200 up the other ones. Yeah. 30 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,440 And then I was like, I got to go. 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,000 I cannot be, you can't do this, baby. 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,560 Because, yeah, I'm a firm believer that the first dinosaur 33 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,400 named was Scrotum humanum. But everyone is like, it wasn't 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,440 until like over 100 years later that they named Megalosaurus in 35 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,800 the UK. And then pretty soon after that, 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,640 Iguanodon came about and earned its name. 37 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:20,320 It was first discovered in the UK as well. 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,440 So it's this herbivorous dinosaur. 39 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,080 I've read that because it's one of the first named, it is one of 40 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,600 the most traded dinosaurs of all time, and. 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,760 Oh, that makes sense. So one of the things that makes 42 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:40,520 Iguanodon kind of cool marginally is that it has a 43 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,480 thumb spike, which we'll talk about. 44 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,720 But when they first found Iguanodon. 45 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,920 So Iguanodon was discovered by well, it's debated if it was 46 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:54,240 found by just Mary Ann Mantel or if it was discovered by her and 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,280 her husband Gideon, or whatever the fuck that name is. 48 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:58,880 I don't know. It's weird name in my opinion. 49 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,880 Gideon, yeah. Gideon yeah, stop taking credit 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,000 for your wife's shit. This is the day and age of 51 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,680 essentially, like a lot of it's a little bit before Mary Anning 52 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,360 and everything. But the story goes that she 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,920 found the teeth. Her husband was a doctor. 54 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,280 She was like walking around between his appointments or 55 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,240 something and found these big ass teeth that were really weird 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,840 looking. And he was the one who then was 57 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,360 like, oh, I'm going to write to all these scientific minds at 58 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,920 the time and whatnot. And because it looks like the 59 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:29,600 tooth of an iguana but bigger, they named it Iguana Dawn, which 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,360 is iguana tooth. And one of the interesting 61 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,040 things, one of the OK, actually it's entire hand, it's entire 62 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,000 hand finger is fucking weird. So it's thumb is a straight up 63 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,080 spike. But when they first found it, 64 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,400 they interpreted the spike to go on the nose because they thought 65 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,440 it was like a rhinoceros iguana, just giant size and. 66 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,720 Yeah, and at that point they'd like only like Europeans had 67 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,240 only just recently learned about rhinos, right? 68 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,520 Like, we were still drawing them as like, weird kind of artistic 69 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,720 tanks. Yeah, I think, I'm pretty sure 70 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,280 at that book, maybe we maybe we'd known about rhinos for like 71 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,960 50 years, 100 years. But we hadn't known about them 72 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,040 for super long and we were not good at drawing. 73 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,360 Them No, but we definitely put rhinos and like unicorns in like 74 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,920 the same camp of existing animals like it was fully. 75 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,240 And it's just like Thomas Jefferson being like go forth 76 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,040 and find the bison and the woolly mammoths and the giant 77 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,240 ground sloths, Lewis and Clark, because that's what it did. 78 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,240 So yeah, it's definitely in this era of exploration and 79 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,800 discovery. And my favorite thing though, 80 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,960 because it's been so highly illustrated, but the thumb 81 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,520 spikes are one of the most defining things about it is 82 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,640 every single picture of a quadad just looks like it's giving you 83 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,240 this big old thumbs up like it's hitchhiking or something. 84 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:51,360 Like it is like they have to like every picture is like. 85 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:56,560 Just thumbs. Dinosaurs are OK, it's just a. 86 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,480 Group of iguanodon walking through like, you know, an 87 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,920 environment, whatever. And all of them, their thumbs 88 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,480 are just super prominent. Like it's just I, I laugh every 89 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,440 time we have some at the bathroom at work and I like 90 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,680 laugh my ass off while I'm peeing because I'm looking at 91 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,080 these hitchhiking iguanodons. So we talk about them at 92 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,440 Dinosaur Ridge. Because our tracks were made by 93 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,080 some type of ornithopod. It's now thought to be more of a 94 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,720 true hadrosaur duck bill dinosaur, whereas iguanodons are 95 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,680 more like oh shit fuck me in my dinosaur taxonomy they're not 96 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,800 quite true hadrosaurs yet, even though they're still stupid duck 97 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,440 faced herbivore things with essentially weird hooves and 98 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,120 then duck feet in the back. I just, you know. 99 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,760 OK, I guess I'm making this face because everything about 100 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,600 Iguanodon is kind of a blur to me, except the thumb spike, to 101 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,920 be perfectly fair. So I'm like, Oh yeah, it's like 102 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,280 a herbivore. And that's 100% of what I knew. 103 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,000 So it does have the freaky hooves. 104 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,400 Kind of also dislike the fact that dinosaurs it's. 105 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,880 Debated. It doesn't have like the hoof of 106 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,760 what we are seeing in things like Brachyolophosaurus or 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,080 Amontosaurus and more of these like later derived hadrosaurs. 108 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:17,120 But it's debated with its creepy fucking hand if the middle three 109 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,520 fingers operated as kind of a hoof or if they were separate, 110 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,800 or if they were like, I'm serious, webbed. 111 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,560 So they have really weird mitten hands is how they're frequently 112 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,480 described. So they got a thumb spike for a 113 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,160 thumb. They got three weird giant 114 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:38,240 fingers in the middle, and then they have this creepy prehensile 115 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:39,480 pinky. What? 116 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,240 Go ahead and scroll. OK, I mean, our pinky is 117 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,440 prehensile. Yeah, bro, right. 118 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,640 Yeah. OK, OK. 119 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,680 You're going to see some freaky shit, man. 120 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,240 I love that you've like not really seen Iguanodon and this 121 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,600 is like your foray into Iguanodon and it is so weird. 122 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,040 OK, so. Huh. 123 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,880 OK. Go ahead and describe these 124 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,400 bones that you're seeing. I gave one of the bones 125 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,000 themselves and a schematic drawing of the bones. 126 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,600 Right. So we've got the thumb spike, 127 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,520 which this was going to be one of my questions is it is a 128 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,720 modified digit. It appears to be anyways, so 129 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,000 it's digit number one. And then that's sticking out 130 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,200 hitchhiking style. And then we have 3 janky ass 131 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:30,720 fingers with hoof like endings. And then what appears to be just 132 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,240 like an opposite and like this is a rocker, right? 133 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,920 Like that's. The yes, yes, yes, that would be 134 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,040 accurate. Yeah, it's but like the the 135 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,760 pinky it has instead of having like elongated joints like most 136 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,040 animals that walk on their tip toes do, like deer, anything 137 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,120 that has hooves, it's spikier looking. 138 00:07:54,120 --> 00:08:00,240 And does it have extra digits? In extra phalanges, so there are 139 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,360 they have different number of phalanges. 140 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,520 Hyperdactyls. Bro. 141 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,640 That's the word I had to see. Freak. 142 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,840 Yeah. So that just means it has extra, 143 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,320 it added digits onto it added. It's like taking your. 144 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,320 Go go gadgeted phalanges to make its fingers longer. 145 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,080 Instead of extending an individual phalanx to make it 146 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,280 longer, it just modified and was able to add extra bones. 147 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,360 Yeah, like adding another, like the bone that supports your 148 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,000 pinky nail, adding another bone past that. 149 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,880 Yeah, Yeah. Not making all of your bones 150 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,760 longer, which is the more classic. 151 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:41,360 That's the normal evolutionary trend. 152 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,440 This is. I love our podcast because I 153 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,960 feel like it's such a subtle way of being Like, bitch, evolution 154 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,360 is true. Like look at how weird. 155 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:51,920 There's no way we'd have this. Why? 156 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,440 Wouldn't this great creator just stick with one freaky finger and 157 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,960 just give it to everybody? Why you got to be like, no, this 158 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,680 one's going to have these freaky finger. 159 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,440 That's definitely the theme of today. 160 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,760 So it's very strange because the thumb has reduced its phalanges. 161 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,960 It only has two phalanges in the thumb. 162 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,200 Then the index finger in the middle finger have large twisted 163 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,760 hoof like angles or claws. And then there are with I guess 164 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:28,880 like, yeah, two, it's 23324. That's their phalanx phalangeal 165 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,680 formula. So the thumb has two phalanges, 166 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,200 the index and middle finger have three, the ring finger has two 167 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,600 again, and then the pinky finger has four. 168 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,400 It is weird. It is weird. 169 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,680 It is just, yeah, it's just like, just like strange. 170 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,040 OK, so going back to the whole Organism, not just its fingers, 171 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:55,080 but Iguanodon had relatively long arms and it was, they were 172 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,600 quite robust and their thought that they were rather inflexible 173 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,960 hands so that those 3 central fingers could bear a lot of 174 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,880 weight. So that's kind of that hoof 175 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,520 idea. The thumbs were conical spikes 176 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,920 that stuck out, as you're noticing, almost at a 90° angle 177 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,200 from the three main digits. And the little finger was 178 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,400 elongated, dexterous and may have been used for manipulating 179 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,840 objects. So with that being said, go 180 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:28,560 ahead and look at the shit of what an Iguanodon reconstruction 181 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,880 is on the next page. I 182 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,480 can't even, like, hear you. You're laughing so. 183 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,440 I was like, you know, I thought it would be funny to say that 184 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,760 this is like a rocker, but this is definitely, that's a, that's 185 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,520 a sexual gesture. We're just not pinging, but it's 186 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:01,280 supposed. To like come. 187 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,800 Here, well, it's just the. Three, but yeah, it's going, 188 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,640 yes. I mean, maybe it's three in the 189 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:16,800 cloak. 2 for the poke. Well, it's one poke and one for 190 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,040 the tickle. Really the. 191 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,000 Tickle. Oh, well, I mean, right, you 192 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:28,000 might need that. Is it that OK, I have in my 193 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,240 notes show reconstructions laugh hysterically. 194 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,480 I wrote that in. OK, so that is what? 195 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,680 Oh, First off, you need to describe what you're seeing. 196 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,600 OK. So I want you to imagine that, 197 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,360 you know, they've really committed to the thumb spike and 198 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,480 that's going out 90° and then they've taken those 3 sort of 199 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,120 normal fingers and they've webbed them together into a 200 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,640 super finger. Like it's a pinky hitter, Yeah. 201 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,080 Yep, Yep. And then the pinky they've 202 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,440 decided I want, like it just looks like somebody flexed A 203 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,360 bicep. Like it's that degree of curled 204 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,480 over. It looks like a really specific 205 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,120 posture and a pervert drew that. That's what that is. 206 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,680 I don't know what they're into, but they're into something 207 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:17,280 weird. Anyways, Yep. 208 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,400 Yep, that's exactly Yep. So whether I mean, this is just 209 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,720 an interpretation. It is super weird though. 210 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,400 Incredibly, incredibly strange. Oh, also, I made props for 211 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,640 today's episode. That won't make any real sense. 212 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,120 But this is my Iguanodon. This is my. 213 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,720 She put her hand into an oven Mitt and she tapes some 214 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,760 cardboard to it. It's actually a fake slice of 215 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:52,360 pizza from Tracys Toy Kitchen. All right, hold on. 216 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,840 We we need to take a screenshot of that pretty clearly. 217 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,840 Could you really tell that it's come to there? 218 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,160 The picture I just took is really bad. 219 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,640 That's perfect. Those are my favorite. 220 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,120 Yeah. Kelly saw this last week and was 221 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,720 like, what the fuck? And I was like, don't worry 222 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,360 about it. He's like, I know what it's for. 223 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,640 He's like, I could tell he's sick. 224 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,080 Fuck. And I was like, you're welcome. 225 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,280 OK, So that's actually just one interpretation of how this 226 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:25,960 Iguanodon hand would have worked. 227 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,400 When I went to the Natural History Museum of London, they 228 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,960 also had a display on Iguanodon, which makes sense. 229 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,440 The UK is where it was first discovered and named. 230 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,320 So if you want to go ahead and scroll to the second image, you 231 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,360 can see what I think is equally horrifying, to be totally 232 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:55,280 honest. OK, you know how like like when 233 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,440 an old man can't really trim his toenails and fingernails? 234 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,400 Appropriately, Yeah, they look like creepy. 235 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,440 Giants that they suppose their hands yeah they've gone with 236 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,280 separating the toes on this interpretation to the point 237 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,920 where the hooks look cute facing the same direction if they look 238 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:15,640 and then. Yeah. 239 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,720 They've made it a tool user. That's what they appear to have 240 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,280 done with that pinky. I hate it. 241 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,920 I like the previous interpretation. 242 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,000 The other one is very shape of water, you ask me. 243 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,200 See, it's. Perverted. 244 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,840 Yeah. I love how many times Shape of 245 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,880 Water comes up in this podcast. I love. 246 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,880 That I've never seen it. Wait, what? 247 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,520 You would actually like it? Would I? 248 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,280 I think you would actually like it. 249 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,320 No. I think it might be one of the 250 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,840 few things that overlaps both of our needs. 251 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,360 OK, interesting. It's very. 252 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,200 I mean, it is very weird. It is not a normal movie. 253 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,400 Well, that does sound like something I would like. 254 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,960 So I guess the next time you come visit, we'll have to watch 255 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,600 Shape of Water. OK, I'll try and find some fish 256 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,800 we can watch it in front of or something, you know? 257 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,280 Yeah, OK. As one does. 258 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,320 As one does. So yeah, so this one is, is 259 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,560 super creepy. OK, so then what the fuck? 260 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,440 What, what what were they doing with these hands? 261 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,560 What is going on? And I just find it frustrating 262 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,520 and not. We're just doing bad hand 263 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:31,480 gestures to each other now. Amy had does not have her mitten 264 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:32,400 on. Three in the pink. 265 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:38,920 All right, it's an improvement. OK, so of course, what do you 266 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,400 think we've interpreted this thumb spike to be? 267 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,560 Megan. Imagine you're a man who found 268 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,080 this shit weapon. Yay. 269 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:53,120 Surprise, surprise, it has been interpreted to be a weapon. 270 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,200 So if you want to go ahead and scroll to see the image I took 271 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,280 at the Natural History Museum, this is on display. 272 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,480 That is such a swole ass Iguanodon. 273 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,600 Look at how big they need it. They need it. 274 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,960 For all of us, they. Need it for stabbing. 275 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,440 Right, straight to the carotid, yeah. 276 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,320 That looks very ET to Brutus like. 277 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,160 Like, win it for a handshake and I'm stabbing you in the neck. 278 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,000 Yeah. So this is what is depicted all 279 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,080 the time. Is Iguanodon in incredibly close 280 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:38,120 range stabbing a predator directly into the neck? 281 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,080 Weird Kung Fu moves with its flexible pinky. 282 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:47,200 No, no, that's just for eating and. 283 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,240 Ladies. So the thumb is all his business 284 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,080 in the front, party in the back. I knew coming into it that we 285 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,160 were, we were going to make shocker jokes the whole time. 286 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:04,839 But like, I'm I'm surprised that we're into them so early in the 287 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,160 episode, I guess. Well, yeah, you're welcome. 288 00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:11,720 It's great. OK, this is so incredibly 289 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,599 common. And so the way I, I couldn't 290 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,200 figure out a way to really demonstrate how insane it is to 291 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,720 me that Iguanodon is either shown as hitchhiking or it's in 292 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,480 this combat in this exact same type of pose. 293 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,480 So if you want to scroll, I literally took a screenshot of 294 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,320 my Google. Image search. 295 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:38,160 For I searched Iguanodon stabbing and this is the first 3 296 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,360 rows. It's of results. 297 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:45,520 It's just Iguanodon stabbing like it just looks murderous 298 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,880 like every time the dinosaurs like no, I didn't do anything to 299 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,160 you. Like it doesn't look defensive. 300 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,560 It looks aggressive like this is actually a meat eating dinosaur 301 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,920 with like a vampire. Like it's got like a a love of 302 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,960 throat blood. Oh, I like the one on the upper 303 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,720 right where the other hand is like using to hold the. 304 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,760 Oh yeah. Stay still. 305 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,880 It's kind of sinister, honestly. Right. 306 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,160 And this predator and meat eater is just like, Oh no, why? 307 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,280 Like I'm going to turn my head. So please, I'm sure this isn't 308 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,000 going to be all that hard for you, but do you want to list 309 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,640 some of your concerns with this interpretation of the thumb 310 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,960 spike? I feel like if you are getting 311 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,160 within stabbing distance of the neck of a carnivorous dinosaur, 312 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,600 you are also within biting distance of its teeth. 313 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:42,080 So this seems like a last resort for when your neck is in its 314 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,840 mouth, you know, like that where this is the iguanodon is like 315 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:56,000 step first ask questions. Why are Iguanodons so fierce? 316 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,800 They're just, they were just murderers, you know, herbivorous 317 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,600 murderers. Duck billed murderers, yeah. 318 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,680 Yeah, but that is one of the major complaints about this 319 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,880 interpretation of the thumb spike is that it has to be used 320 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:17,960 at such close range that the dinosaur would be at a lot of 321 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,400 just a lot of danger itself for being there. 322 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,320 Again, it's like bear spray and how they're like, don't use your 323 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,680 bear spray until the bear is a yard away from you and you're 324 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,280 like fuck you. That's terrifying. 325 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,040 That's fucked up. I wish I had a thumb spike. 326 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,320 I just fucking stabbed this bear. 327 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,680 Yeah it does. It just seems like a little too 328 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,160 late. Like a tail spike would have 329 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,120 been more reasonable, but sometimes evolution doesn't give 330 00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:48,080 you what you want, it just gives you something shitty instead. 331 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,600 Yeah, seriously. Evolution. 332 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,120 It's not Christmas. And I'm not saying Noah Guanadon 333 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,920 ever stabbed a theropod in the neck, right? 334 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,120 But it probably also died immediately afterwards from its 335 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,120 many grievous wounds. Right, right. 336 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,720 That it had to that why was it even at such close range exactly 337 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,880 So a lot of times that's still how Iguanodon is interpreted. 338 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,160 The number one thing that comes up about the purpose of the 339 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,480 thumb spike is still for violence and defense and all 340 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,720 that. And of course there are other 341 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,760 paleontologists that believe it is more for this herbivorous 342 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,600 lifestyle and. I say digging or something, 343 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,800 yeah. Breaking into seeds, digging, 344 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,000 breaking into fruit. I found this. 345 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,840 Trees stabbing. Trees, but it's kind of like 346 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,560 giant ground sloths in my opinion too. 347 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,760 About if you looked at the claws of a giant ground sloth you 348 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,800 would be like shit they were just stabbing. 349 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:52,040 They were too mad left. And right, they were just, yeah. 350 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,480 And we know that they were using those giant ass claws to get 351 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,400 branches and get foliage and be able to eat. 352 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,960 And that I read this awesome article by Riley Black, I think 353 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,880 in the Smithsonian. And she was writing about how it 354 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,080 could, again, her interpretation is, well, what if it is 355 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,800 something like what we see in pandas and even red pandas, I 356 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,600 think, where it's something about like gathering and getting 357 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,680 branches and then being able to easily like slice up kind of 358 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,000 through it to like get the foliage off of your branches by 359 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,440 having this adaptation that's pointy on this end. 360 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,160 And then you got that nice prehensile finger on the other 361 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,840 side to keep that branch in place while you're then 362 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:37,320 skewering this food source. So I would love to see more work 363 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,640 come out about Iguanodon. I love all the art, but let's do 364 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:46,960 some more studies perhaps. But please, someone keep drawing 365 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,520 these insane things. And the only other thing I have 366 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,360 to say about this paper that I read was that I laughed really 367 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:57,840 hard because they described the thumb claw as being described as 368 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,600 horny. And I just lost my shit because 369 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,000 I am who I am. And then I was like, that's a 370 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,880 really interesting way to describe this. 371 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,080 I wonder if they use it any other times in this paper. 372 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,680 And so I searched it and they used it like 15 times. 373 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,040 So yeah, mostly to describe the beak of Iguanodon. 374 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,440 It's got a horny beak, a horny claw, and a horny sheet. 375 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:20,280 It's a. Horn and I. 376 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,240 Was like, have you looked at the hands? 377 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:28,440 The hands are horny my friend. That's what I have for you on 378 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,440 Iguanodon and that I don't buy the thumb spike for violence 379 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,200 except in absolutely necessary situations. 380 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:40,280 And I think that it is something more towards this foliage and 381 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,240 something more for feeding on plants. 382 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,280 That's my two cents, but I honestly don't care. 383 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,680 One more content and you don't want to wait, or maybe you don't 384 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,200 want to hear ads like this? Well, head on over to our 385 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,280 Patreon for exclusive content, early ad free episodes, and so 386 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,440 much more. For only $5 a month, you can 387 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,440 hear outtakes, exclusive episodes, and the stuff we cut 388 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,240 for time, and also the stuff we cut because it was just too much 389 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,840 for the general public. Looking for fresh fashion with a 390 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,200 science twist? Be sure to check out Geopedal 391 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,520 Fabric Megane Clothing Company. These geek chic designs look 392 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,240 fantastic and make for excellent conversation starters. 393 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,400 Plus, get 10% off using code weird and dead. 394 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,440 Head on over to geopedalfabric.com now. 395 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,120 OK, well yeah, let's let's switch gears and let's move on 396 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:44,760 to creepy ass pandas. So pandas have 6 fingers. 397 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:50,360 And when I say pandas, I do mean both giant pandas and red 398 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,840 pandas. And those are two animals that 399 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,760 used to be grouped together, both because of their extra 6 400 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,200 finger and presumably because both of them cute and fuzzy and 401 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,160 similarly colored like once red, but whatever. 402 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,720 Like they have the same kind of dramatic ass markings, but they 403 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,400 are in completely separate families. 404 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,560 Panda bears are actually bears. Red pandas are in a totally 405 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,920 separate group of carnivores. So they are different, but they 406 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,760 both do have 6 fingers. And as I was researching this, I 407 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,280 remembered that you and I had kind of looked at these at one 408 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,880 point and both been like, what the fuck? 409 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,760 That's seven fingers. What the fuck? 410 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,840 What the fuck? So I did go a little bit more 411 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,400 into detail, so you can go ahead and Scroll down to that first 412 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:36,800 image. Dear God. 413 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,840 So what I've given you is I've given you a giant panda hand 414 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,040 because it's a lot more dramatic on the giant panda than it is on 415 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,840 the red panda. Then you've got a human hand 416 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,600 with the OK, I'm going to call it pisiform. 417 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,880 I don't remember how you say it, and every time I say pisiform, I 418 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,200 do think that that's not right, but I am going to call it 419 00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,400 pisiform. I'm good. 420 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,200 So we've got yeah. But that's the carpool. 421 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,600 Yeah, yeah. So the Pisiform is a carpool and 422 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,360 we have one, it's just much smaller. 423 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,440 And I went ahead and highlighted it on the dog as well. 424 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,960 Well, I didn't highlight it. I included a dog image because I 425 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,920 did have to spend some time Googling because if you look at 426 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,440 that. Giant Panda hand. 427 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,080 Why don't you go ahead and describe what you see with the 428 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,520 giant panda hand? So the giant panda is in the 429 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,800 upper left. Yeah, with the free, it's the 430 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,280 bad one. Yeah, it looks crazy. 431 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,800 So it looks like it has five normal ish kind. 432 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,080 Well, they look like 5 digits that don't look like a thumb. 433 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,360 Yes, they look all like kind of your middle index. 434 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:41,640 Those fingers. It's like 5 normal fingers, no 435 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,760 thumb except for this little chicken bone thing. 436 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,320 Is that on the That's the thumb. Yeah. 437 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,560 So the the thing that I think was most confusing to me is that 438 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,440 when you look at these illustrations of giant panda 439 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,360 hands, they always include the pissiform bone because it is a 440 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:01,480 carpal. So to be faithful, they do have 441 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,440 to look pinky. And it is. 442 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,640 Pinky finger side. No, it's not the one that looks 443 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,160 like the pinky, it's the one that looks like the thumb. 444 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,080 That's why it's confusing. So you've got the little tiny 445 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,560 chicken wing that is right next to the pinky that looks like 446 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,280 it's articulating in the same direction, and then you've got 447 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,760 the pisiform bone sticking out. And that I kept looking at and 448 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,760 thinking that was the thumb. It is not. 449 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,040 The pisiform bone is essentially the same thing as a calcaneum, 450 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,960 like it's a heel, it's a lever. And it just so happens that in 451 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,920 pandas, their pisiform bone is really close to the rest of 452 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,400 their stuff because they are plantigrade, not digitigrade. 453 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,120 And they're plantigrade on both their front and their back legs. 454 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,680 So their pisiform bone has moved very close to the rest of their 455 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,880 hand. And it looks like it should be a 456 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,440 seventh finger, but it's actually articulating the other 457 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,320 direction. So pandas do indeed only have 6 458 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,480 fingers. It's not like every other side 459 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,600 just miss something. Greedy bitches. 460 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,280 Yeah, OK. And. 461 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,040 So but the OK but the chicken bone thing on the left is their 462 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,520 pinky finger. Yes, and their thumb looks like 463 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,560 a normal digit in a super long. Kind of, but go ahead and Scroll 464 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,280 down to the next image and you'll see what it actually 465 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,840 looks like on a panda with flesh. 466 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,520 So they really are using that pisiform, whatever we're calling 467 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,360 it as a thumb. No, it's the opposite. 468 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:33,160 The pisiform is the fleshy pad. Oh, it's the fleshy pad. 469 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,240 Oh, but that says that that's a radial sesmoid. 470 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,680 Yes, so. There's Oh my God, what are what 471 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,520 is wrong with you? Look into those eyes. 472 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,360 Those are dead eyes. Yeah, they are the, you know, 473 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:45,800 pandas. They want to die just like 474 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,000 horses. So they really do in pandas, 475 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,120 both red pandas and giant pandas. 476 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,440 Part of the reason that they were like, oh, they must be 477 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,600 related is because it's not just that they've developed a sixth 478 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,240 finger, it's that the sixth finger isn't a real finger. 479 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,000 It is the radial sesamoid, which you and I also, I believe, have 480 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,160 a radial sesamoid. It's one of these things in our 481 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,880 wrist, but sesamoid. Bones. 482 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,360 Yeah, well, sesamoid bones. At all costs. 483 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,440 You would hate even more because the word sesamoid comes from, I 484 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,920 guess the word in Greek for sesame seeds because they're 485 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,320 usually really small. Because sesamoid bones are 486 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,920 really more of a calcification of your tendon. 487 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,200 They're often used to like help redirect your tendon and to like 488 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,400 create pulley action. So they're tendon bones. 489 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,320 So not every animal has the same number of sesamoid bones. 490 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,520 The biggest sesamoid bone in your body is the Patella. 491 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,560 Yep, it's your knee bone. It is not like the other bones 492 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,960 in your legs. It is a tendon bone that is out 493 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,000 of fucking control. That's what the Patella is. 494 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,720 So weird and it hurts all the time. 495 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,760 No, Nope it doesn't, so you should check that out. 496 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,520 It's not normal, I already know. OK, I already know my knees in. 497 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:01,840 Fact. So it's all good. 498 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,960 Yeah, so. Yeah, but that's why the number 499 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,880 of bones in the human body, like they're like it's 206. 500 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,640 And it's like because it varies even amongst individuals are 501 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,480 largely because of these bones because you some people have 502 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,560 some and some people don't. And sometimes they're very, very 503 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,120 little. They're literally sesame seed 504 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,000 size. So, you know, sometimes they 505 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,920 don't. Some sesamoid bones are bigger 506 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,240 than others. How all these words are based on 507 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,600 like, food. I love how people were just 508 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,960 like, hungry. I'm so hungry. 509 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,920 That's why I'm identifying and labeling these bones. 510 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:42,560 So the sesamoid bone in pandas, it does create a false thumb, 511 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,560 but only in that it is taking like their palm and making a 512 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,080 more sticky Audi component of their palm. 513 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,520 It's only one bone. It's actually pretty flat if you 514 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,520 look at them, they're not super elongate and pointy like 515 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,400 Iguanodon, which is actually kind of interesting. 516 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,120 And I do wonder if if we're looking at comparisons, I 517 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,320 actually don't know that a panda thumb is the best comparison 518 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,920 because panda thumbs are not spikes. 519 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,080 They are more like flat ribbons with a little curl cussian. 520 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,280 Pandas are lovers. Not, no. 521 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,080 Pandas are distinctly not lovers. 522 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,560 That's their whole problem. That is why they are dying. 523 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,320 Hey, maybe they're just asexual. Yes. 524 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,400 So this, this radial sesamoid bone has evolved in both giant 525 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,360 pandas and red pandas for the same, well, they use it the same 526 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,280 way they both use it to. I kept calling it corn shucking 527 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,960 in my notes, like they're stripping the leaves off of 528 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,600 bamboo. But you know, it's, it's easier 529 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,120 than corn. They don't have to do any fine 530 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,720 scale manipulations, but they've both chosen to eat bamboo and 531 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,360 that sixth finger helps them. So I want to know show you my 532 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,880 deformity which is relatively new that it is related. 533 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,640 So sesamoid bones are bones that form within your tendon and a 534 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,640 ganglion cyst is what happens when you hit your hand too hard 535 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,080 against something and you develop a cyst on your tendon. 536 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,080 So. You see that robe so you for 537 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:20,720 real, Megan has like a pea sized bump at the base of her palm 538 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,960 sticking out and it looks like she's she's trying to stab me in 539 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,120 the neck with it. Guys, she is trying. 540 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,760 To I'm trying to full on Iguanon. 541 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,760 Guanidod was so bad at volleyball, Yeah. 542 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,440 Just kept deflating the balls. Yeah. 543 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,360 So I have a ganglion cyst. I don't know if they're actually 544 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,280 necessarily related, but I did think that that was funny 545 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,520 because this is really hard, which is part of how I knew that 546 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,760 it was a ganglion cyst and not something else. 547 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,200 It's because it's. Very, very hard you've been. 548 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:53,840 Here for like a year. What'd you do? 549 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,120 I think I like hit it really hard against the fridge. 550 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,920 That's kind of what I remember. That's anti dramatic. 551 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,000 Yeah, it wasn't cool. It was not like I hit a bus 552 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,320 trying to save a baby or something. 553 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,760 It was. I think I just hit it hard 554 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,360 against the fridge and then like looked down like an hour later 555 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,720 and was like, wow, there's a bump there. 556 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,080 And then it never went away. OK, so that OK, so this is 557 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:18,360 fascinating. That's weird. 558 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,200 That's gross. I am still like very distracted 559 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,880 by their weird chicken bone finger too. 560 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,400 Like cuz you can't really. That doesn't seem to even it 561 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,600 doesn't end in a claw. So this image of the panda has 5 562 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,720 digits on top that are wrapped around a branch and they're all 563 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,800 with a claw. And then you can see the gross 564 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,520 sesamoid bone gripping it there and the but oh, so is that the 565 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,000 feel sesamoid like the Oh no, it's that thing down there. 566 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,120 Here I'm gonna actually go ahead. 567 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,560 I'm gonna post another picture I wasn't sure if I should add. 568 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Yet that's not how many. I did go ahead and Scroll down 569 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,160 to the last image. Yeah, that's actually really 570 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:04,000 beautiful. Yeah. 571 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:05,280 Gross. Yeah. 572 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,280 Oh, and you can see how it has like that curling edge and the 573 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,120 little thing called in panel D, the, like, dark flat version 574 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,680 that is a ancient panda bone because as of 2022, the oldest 575 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,520 panda thumb that we have is from the Miocene. 576 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,120 It's about 7,000,000 years old. And the paper pointed out that 577 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,720 one interesting thing about the panda thumb, the giant panda 578 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,200 thumb, is that you would assume it was getting longer over time 579 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,040 as they became more and more specialized for bamboo eating. 580 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,760 But if you look at the Miocene ones, there's are actually 581 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,600 slightly longer. Yeah. 582 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,440 So the thought is that this is an evolutionary tradeoff, that 583 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,840 by having these long thumbs, you are sacrificing some of your 584 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,400 mobility. Because it turns out pandas 585 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,480 don't just sit and eat, they also walk to go find another 586 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,680 place to sit and eat. And they put all of their weight 587 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,120 on all four legs and they are plantigrade. 588 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,840 That means they walk on their you and I are plantigrade as 589 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,400 well. We walk on our palms of our feet 590 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,880 and they would walk on their their palms of their feet and 591 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,480 the palms of their hand. Not like dogs and deer and 592 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,800 everything who walk on like more tiptoe. 593 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,800 So as a result, they can't really afford to have a super 594 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,520 long opposable bone, especially since it's it's really just a 595 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:22,760 lump. Like I don't know that they 596 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,080 actually have that much mobility. 597 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,760 It's just something lumpy to hold bamboo up against. 598 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,639 So if it was any longer, it would potentially impede the 599 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:35,120 pandas ability to. Walk. 600 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,719 Wow, this actually like makes me like pandas a little bit more. 601 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,719 I'm going to be honest, this is like. 602 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,280 Redeeming Is it because this image looks like it's jerking 603 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,480 off a piece of bamboo? I mean, like I'm always here for 604 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:52,400 that. They also just have really real 605 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,240 like the the distal ends of their meta meta carpals and the 606 00:34:58,240 --> 00:34:59,960 proximal ends of their Phalangea. 607 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,520 They're really bumpy. Like they're really like got all 608 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,040 sorts of extra bumps and grooves. 609 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,360 Like they're very, I don't know, roller coaster ride. 610 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,320 Yeah. I mean, it's also possible that 611 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,560 like this particular panda had arthritis or something and we're 612 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,360 just assuming that this is a normal panda hand and it's not. 613 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,960 I don't know for sure. And so is there. 614 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,000 I think it's the same Panda Hand. 615 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,520 Do we see all the time their? Piss bone. 616 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,960 The piss hand bone is that. Yeah, the pissiform is that. 617 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,440 More of a thing with their walking then to be more of the 618 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,600 stable platform for their locomotion. 619 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,160 As I understand it, yeah, that's more what they're using it for. 620 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,880 They're not using it in any sort of pincher movement with their. 621 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,040 It's with their it's just expanding its base, its surface 622 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,440 area. Yeah, on the ground, yeah. 623 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,760 Wow. See, but it is like the 624 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,720 Iguanodon in terms of it's trying, it's doing lots of 625 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:54,440 different adaptations with one. Yeah, when? 626 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:55,520 Creepy men. Yep. 627 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,920 It's really trying to do a lot. It is trying to do the most, but 628 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,600 the most is really just eating bamboo. 629 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:01,480 Real. Good. 630 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,560 So even the Miocene ones had this, what we would say extra 631 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,840 digit in a way, but it wasn't as derived and curved yet, but they 632 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,000 were so still probably doing. Do we know when the extra digit 633 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,800 came about? What's the common ancestor with 634 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,440 pandas? What's the next bear? 635 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,800 So we'll, we'll get to other bears in a second. 636 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:26,160 But like pandas, it seems that we've got the very old thumb. 637 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,760 We've got a Pleistocene one that looks kind of like today's. 638 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,600 And the very old thumb is slightly longer and just isn't 639 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,000 as curved. So like they grew out this big 640 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,600 old sesamoid bone, made it longer, and then they used it as 641 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,120 a base for scraping bamboo. And with red pandas, they have 642 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,560 kind kind of a similar story, but red pandas have a a little 643 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,200 bit of a difference because red pandas, unlike giant pandas, 644 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,400 they are arboreal. So like if you look up giant 645 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,200 panda tree, you're going to see lots of funny videos of them 646 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,680 falling out of trees because they are incapable of life. 647 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,000 But red pandas move a lot like raccoons, they are arboreal. 648 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,880 And when you look at red panda evolution, First off, red 649 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,040 pandas, their six finger is not nearly as obvious. 650 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,880 It's definitely you kind of have to look at their bones in order 651 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,200 to see. I think actually the next 652 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,160 drawing is an illustration, but even then it's really not. 653 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,640 Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. 654 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,280 But it's. Still doing a similar it's it is 655 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,520 holding it in place there with this bamboo. 656 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,920 Stock, Yep, while they RIP the leaves off. 657 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,840 And if you look at the ancestors, we do have one again 658 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,920 from the Miocene. So I don't know what was going 659 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,480 on in the Miocene, but red pandas, there's one from Spain 660 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,800 and the Miocene that also has the 6th thumb. 661 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,680 It's smaller, but it's not a bamboo eater. 662 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,760 What it is, is arboreal. So they think that actually in 663 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,400 red pandas, they evolved this more for their arboreal 664 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,280 lifestyle and then just happened to find out that it was 665 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,320 convenient for bamboo ripping. Oh. 666 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,920 Oh so the this extra thumb quote UN quote came before the bamboo. 667 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,080 Yes, yeah. Wow, that's. 668 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:06,800 Cool. Yeah. 669 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,440 So they had some funny quotes in this paper. 670 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,560 They're not that funny. But I thought they were funny 671 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,600 because, you know, they had to be like, well, how could the 672 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,640 panda, the giant panda eventually get a more usable 673 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:24,680 thumb? Well, they might. 674 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,680 They have to get around this whole plantigrade thing. 675 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,920 So they've got to overcome a constraint by becoming 676 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,840 digitigrade. And I just thought that that was 677 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,040 funny because at no point that these people suggest why not 678 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,960 just become bipedal because of course bipedalism is so much 679 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,480 more fucking complicated than just walking on your toe tips. 680 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,400 But as a primate, I was like, no, just stand up bitch. 681 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,080 You want to keep your dumb fuck you just stand up. 682 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,080 Your rotate like a slot. Stab it too, right? 683 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,440 Yeah. So they only had one suggestion 684 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,480 which was walk on your toe tips but a suggestion. 685 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,080 Like. Hi, their hands. 686 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,200 Yeah, right. A lot of other things go knuckle 687 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,680 walking, a lot of. Times, Yeah, Iguanodon. 688 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,600 Iguanodon. This is like whatever the fuck 689 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,440 Iguanodon was smoking. Can I? 690 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,480 Please. I guess actually Iguanodon would 691 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,960 be digital grade though, right? That's what it's doing. 692 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,120 So yeah, I think it's just like horrific grade, but, you know, 693 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:27,320 just be fucking terrifying. OK, So we had like a Miocene 694 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,560 renaissance of fingers. We're pandas. 695 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:35,000 Yes, yes. And so, yeah, this is, I know 696 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,600 that at least when I went to college, this is kind of like 697 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,880 the classic this is how evolution works story. 698 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,760 Because what would really make sense is for the panda just to 699 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,120 take one of its fingers and turn it into a thumb. 700 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,520 It would work a lot better, but it can't because that's not 701 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,520 evolution isn't directional. It takes what you got and it 702 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,840 works with it. And what is really easy, as it 703 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,960 turns out, easier even than my fucking evolution class has 704 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,200 taught me, is making an elongated sesamoid bone. 705 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,560 Because up until this morning I thought only pandas had done 706 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,480 that. And no, that is not true. 707 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,120 So this is the weird fucking rabbit hole I went down, which 708 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:19,160 is how many animals have evolved extra fingers, especially ones 709 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,120 that came from radial sesamoid bones. 710 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,440 So radial sesamoid bones in particular seem to. 711 00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:26,480 A lot. Also, that fucking pissiform 712 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,880 bone. That bitch becomes an extra 713 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,920 finger in other animals. So that's where we're going 714 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:38,600 next. OK, we're going to start out 715 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:43,760 strong with a group of animals that instead of using a sesamic 716 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,800 bone, they actually, it looks like it was cartilaginous rods 717 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,880 that they then ossified. So they took cartilage and they 718 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,920 said, you know what would love an extra finger right there? 719 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,240 Why don't I go ahead and make it an extra finger and I'll make it 720 00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:00,240 Bony so that I can support my big fat body weight. 721 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:02,520 That's right, we're talking about elephants. 722 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,280 How many fingers? Do fucking elephants have? 723 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,600 Come through. I don't fucking know. 724 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,760 I don't or think about. I did not know they all look 725 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,240 like one giant trunk, but not trunk. 726 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,040 That's a bad word because they have that. 727 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,240 But like tree trunk for legs with the elephant trunk for I 728 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:19,600 don't know. I don't think about. 729 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,560 I don't think about. I'm like actively wearing 730 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,840 mammoth earrings. So I can't say I don't think 731 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,920 about probosidians. Yeah, elephants, they've grown 732 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,560 an additional bone basically to help support them because 733 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,480 they're not that tree trunk is not fully them walking on their 734 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,400 toe tips. It's them walking on like 735 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,600 they're called sub digital grade because it's not quite walking 736 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,520 on toe tips like dogs do. It's like one additional joint 737 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,920 and they are compromising because they're super, super 738 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,960 heavy. So it's hard to be digital grade 739 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,920 if you're that big and they've compromised by just getting an 740 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,200 extra finger and an extra toe. Sometimes that's just what you. 741 00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,720 Need did you just say thumb times? 742 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,320 Fuck you. Thumb times. 743 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,480 That's just what you need. I didn't mean to if I did the 744 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:12,000 first time, but that's OK, yeah. All right, next one, cotton 745 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,040 rats. That's not really an animal I 746 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,760 knew about, but apparently it's a rat that lives in Peru and 747 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,960 it's radial sesamoid bone is actually longer in comparison to 748 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:26,440 its hand than the pandas are. It's done a better job making a 749 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,000 finger, and it's curved because they use it. 750 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,320 What's weird with them is that they live out in kind of the 751 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:33,920 open. They don't live in like trees. 752 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,280 So why do they need this? They're probably. 753 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:44,840 Scaling bushes because to a rat a Bush is a tree like right? 754 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,720 Yeah, fair. It's all it is. 755 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:48,880 It's just like to my broccoli tree. 756 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,080 You're right. Exactly. 757 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,600 It lives in an arboreal lifestyle in the sagebrush step 758 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,600 sort of thing. Like it's it's living in bushes 759 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,800 and it's using it to scale things and maybe pick up 760 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,840 objects. But yeah, not a lot is known 761 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,760 about cotton rats, I guess. So that's that's what I got from 762 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,200 that paper. So they need really fine scale 763 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,760 control. Frogs have extra fingers for no 764 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,040 reason. It's not really clear where 765 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,800 those are coming from. God, God Megan and wanted them 766 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,600 that way. Sorry, moles also have an extra 767 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,080 finger, and it is functionally the equivalent of the radial 768 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,080 sesamoid. It's I think it's a slightly 769 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:29,800 different sesamoid, maybe because moles are not super 770 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,640 closely related to us, but it's like a big scalloped thing and 771 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,600 it's used to support their gross finger mittens when they're 772 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:39,880 digging. Because they are. 773 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,400 Because they just wanted wider hands creatures. 774 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,080 Yeah, yes. Yes. 775 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,480 Generally terrifying. Extra terrifying is that one 776 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,880 mole has extra toes that are doing the exact same thing It 777 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,720 has function. Got a 6th toe if you could. 778 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:57,520 They don't. Front see it from the back. 779 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,320 Yeah, they don't. That's actually pretty much what 780 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,720 the author said. For evolutionary reasons, the 781 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:08,680 other clearly got to the end of that paper and was like, yeah, 782 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,880 it's got one on its foot. I don't know, maybe they're 783 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,000 linked. Maybe you can't have one without 784 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,160 the other. Put me in the specific AdWords. 785 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,840 And. Forwards, they're like, there's 786 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,440 clearly no reason for it. And I was like really there's no 787 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,200 OK, sure. So. 788 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,280 Sometimes it could just be in a byproduct of, who knows. 789 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,040 What exactly you know, but it's a stand. 790 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,640 For a sign function, don't even do that to me. 791 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,480 You know I get faint when you quote Gould. 792 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,840 I was going to say, actually one of the other papers did have a 793 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,520 Gould quote in it. Yeah, specifically about pandas, 794 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,720 the pandas. He wrote a whole fucking book, 795 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:49,960 yeah. Yeah, yeah. 796 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,800 And the pandas thumb. So I would tell you to write to 797 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,560 him, but. He's dead. 798 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,160 Yeah, he's dead. So yeah, Frogs, moles, flying 799 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,760 squirrels took their pissiform bone and they made it into 800 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,640 cartilage. So they have an extra 801 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,120 cartilaginous kind of rod to help. 802 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,640 Support their to help with their right pajam. 803 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do think we should do an 804 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,680 episode at some point all about skin flap flying. 805 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,200 Like we should talk about flying squirrels and Kalugos and. 806 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,000 Those weird. Reptiles, black snakes, so. 807 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,280 Cute. Sure, sure. 808 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,240 I'm distracted by because it goes I I'm low key obsessed. 809 00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:33,480 Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's true. 810 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,520 I could just save this fucking pterosaur shit for that. 811 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:46,360 So the the last one that I went and looked into that with me 812 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,760 particularly mad because. Mad or grossed out? 813 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,680 I mean, I found all of this disgusting, sorry if I haven't 814 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,280 made that clear. Sesamoid bones are disgusting. 815 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,240 My ganglion cyst is disgusting. All of this is kind of nasty and 816 00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:02,040 I don't want to think about it too much. 817 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,840 The shit that's inside of your hand should stay inside of your 818 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,800 hand and you shouldn't be able to just get extra fingers. 819 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,160 I feel like that's against the rules and it's no it's going so 820 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,480 wrong and making it hard to walk. 821 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:20,200 But pandas are not the only fucking bear that has an extra 822 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,200 radial sesamoid that has an elongated sesamoid bone. 823 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,440 Like we talk about giant pandas. Like Oh my God, they're so 824 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,120 evolved. Yeah, well, fucking spectacle 825 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,400 Deers also have. One do we spectacle bears are 826 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,480 their own precious, beautiful Yeah creation of Yeah. 827 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,560 Me and they did get them independently they it's not like 828 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,480 they share a common ancestor with pandas. 829 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,800 They got them independently and they use them for this is the 830 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,520 most Here's the most metal description of how they're This 831 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,320 is very Iguanodon stabby esque. They removed the leaves of 832 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,760 bromolaids and palms to obtain the heart. 833 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,280 The heart. The heart, they're going for 834 00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:58,440 the. Heart of the palm? 835 00:46:58,440 --> 00:46:59,520 Yeah. Of the palm of. 836 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,960 The palm of the bromolaid? Yeah, of the of the plant. 837 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,920 Did you ever see that hilarious video that people that they 838 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,120 posted about a spectacle bear? No, I think in China and people 839 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,560 accuse them of it being a person wearing a bear suit because it 840 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,240 looked so stupid and they were like, no, this is just what this 841 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,920 dumb bear looks like. And like because it was like 842 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,200 kind of standing bipedally and it's like ass looked really 843 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,160 saggy. It's so everyone was like, come 844 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,400 on, stop dressing up as zoo animals. 845 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,440 And the zoo was like, no, we swear it's a bear. 846 00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,520 I didn't, but that doesn't surprise me because I did do A5. 847 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:36,920 I will. Send you that. 848 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,640 Yeah, yeah, it was, it was pretty hilarious. 849 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,600 And it was like, no, it is a real, it's a real bear. 850 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,000 So yeah, they're great. They're great. 851 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,000 Yeah. And then I guess one just last 852 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:55,240 sidebar on pandas is that red pandas evolved in North America 853 00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,520 and the oldest red panda is from Washington State. 854 00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,040 So that's oh. Yep, I. 855 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,000 Didn't know that. Awesome. 856 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,160 And I thought oh OK, well red pandas are special. 857 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,360 Did you know that there was like a relative of the giant panda 858 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,040 found in North America? No, you should because I'm 859 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,440 pretty sure it was your pandas. Paleobiology or your vertebrate 860 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,320 paleontology apology final project. 861 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,720 I didn't do well on that. The professor really didn't like 862 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:22,240 me, remember. That's true. 863 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:25,960 I had to describe. They were deciduous bear molars. 864 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,840 Yeah, but I didn't know it was or I have forgotten. 865 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,680 I was definitely not consuming a lot of cannabis at that time. 866 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:34,960 Definitely. Not, no, of course not. 867 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,920 Really not. I don't know what you eventually 868 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,760 decided that the bear was. I don't remember that. 869 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,040 But I do remember you were at one point considering in 870 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,760 Darkdose and Agriatherium. Wow, you remember? 871 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,640 Way more about that project than me. 872 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:52,000 I do not remember any of that. I don't remember why, but I do 873 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,840 remember that you were looking at those two and in Darkdose is 874 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,880 a member of the subfamily that includes pandas. 875 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,400 OK, so that's a fucking panda, more or less does it? 876 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,040 Look like a panda. No, it doesn't have an extra 877 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,560 sesamoid bone and it was not eating bamboo. 878 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,440 Is this another fucking zebra situation? 879 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:14,160 Hagerman fucking it's. Just like Bible heartbreak up in 880 00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:16,120 here. I'm just like don't call it. 881 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,720 I don't think that all pandas looked as stupid as modern 882 00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:21,720 pandas. I imagine some of them were 883 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,520 slightly cool, like even in like the paper. 884 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,240 Genetics on that. When did they start looking? 885 00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:32,120 Well, when did they go stupid? When do they get cutesy and 886 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:32,720 dumb? Yeah. 887 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,240 I mean, even in the paper that was describing that myosin Panda 888 00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:41,400 Thumb, the pandas that they illustrated look much more regal 889 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,560 and noble than real fucking pandas. 890 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,520 Like they tried to make pandas cooler than pandas actually are. 891 00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:51,240 But yeah, that and one of the agriatheriums has been split off 892 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,560 into another genus, and that's also in the panda family. 893 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,280 So you might have been looking at a panda relative. 894 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,240 For your project, a panda? Yeah, it's as close as I'll 895 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:00,440 come. Oh, wait. 896 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,720 I think I got to touch some hides when I was at the 897 00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:06,440 Smithsonian a few years ago, which is controversial. 898 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,960 Anyway, they were like, this is that famous panda from the zoo 899 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,120 years ago. And I was like, so you're like, 900 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,240 OK, all right. Looking into its empty eyes. 901 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:22,720 Yeah, it's cool. Pandas, Pandas. 902 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,960 So yeah, pandas. They're from North America on 903 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,920 both fronts, or at least some of them were in North America. 904 00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,920 That's cool, because I usually only think of red pandas at 905 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,120 least as the grey fossil site in Tennessee. 906 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,840 I know that there are red pandas there, but it makes sense that 907 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,240 they were distributed across the country. 908 00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:41,560 Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. 909 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,520 So that's what I have for Pandas. 910 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,040 And it looks like we've just filmed an entire episode getting 911 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,800 upset about pandas and Iguanodons, which is great. 912 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,920 But so maybe we can make it a 2? Parter I think this is a 2 913 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,280 parter about how mad we are about fingers. 914 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,160 Thank you for listening. If you like the podcast, be sure 915 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,400 to rate and review us on your listening platform of choice. 916 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,680 We really, really, really appreciate it. 917 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,600 If you'd like to hear more and support the show, you can follow 918 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,360 us on Patreon for some exclusive bits or on our various social 919 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,280 media platforms. You can follow Amy on Instagram 920 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,960 at Mary Adding Revenge. And Megan on Instagram and 921 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,120 TikTok as geopedal fabric or both of us at Weird and dead on 922 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,320 Instagram and TikTok. Our theme song is Unlock Me by 923 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,680 Praz Kanal. Cover art was provided by Chris 924 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,480 Spencer and the host. And this has been hosted and 925 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,680 researched by us in the Atwater and Megan Weatherall this 926 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,000 episode edited by our new editor, Max Scott. 927 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,320 Thanks so much for joining the team. 928 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,080 Max, Thank you for listening.