1 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:05,920 You're listening to Weird and Dead. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,800 I'm Meaghan Wetherell. And I'm Amy Atwater, and today 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,040 we are pivoting from our normal content and pace to talk about 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,680 something a lot more serious than paleontology. 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,160 We're talking about the Epstein files, paleontology, and the 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,040 unfortunate fact that those two things are currently connected. 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,880 This is a pretty serious episode and we want our listeners to 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,440 take care, so here are the content warnings. 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,640 We are talking about sexual harassment and assault, and we 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,960 do give specifics, both our own and those that other people have 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:35,800 given us permission to talk about for them. 12 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,040 We are talking about pedophilia in the general sense of the 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,720 Epstein files, but not specific incidences. 14 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,280 We talk about a continued frustrating resistance to action 15 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,080 that permeates the scientific community and specific 16 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,160 organizations, and how that can continue to harm paleontology 17 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:54,080 and paleontologists. Having dealt with this stuff for 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,080 over a decade, we have some coping mechanisms that might 19 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,440 seem a little unusual or jarring, including sarcasm, 20 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,440 joking, and inappropriate laughter. 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,000 We also talk about dissociation and other ways that our bodies 22 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,640 have dealt with these topics over time, so please listen with 23 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,800 care. OK, so here we are. 24 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:14,640 Right. Well. 25 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:17,680 Two paleontologists with drinks in their hands. 26 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,320 With with drinks I made it through dry January and 27 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:25,600 February. I'm like Nope, I did good so I 28 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,640 don't have to be perfect. We're here to talk to you about. 29 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,520 This this the. Epstein files. 30 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,800 And paleontology. Who would have thunk it? 31 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,840 Shockingly related. Grossly related. 32 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,200 Unfortunately related. No other jokes about being 33 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,240 related. No, no, I mean honestly, that 34 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:44,360 would be the lesser crime at this. 35 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,440 I'm off to a bat. We don't know. 36 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,800 We don't know. We were not there. 37 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,760 We're going to say this a lot. So we do Weird and Dead. 38 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:55,880 Obviously the podcast folks are listening to. 39 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,640 We have a lot of fun doing this, but this is not the first time 40 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,800 that you and I have been Co collaborators on science 41 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,920 communication projects, right? This is our current project. 42 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,639 However, back in 2012 when you started. 43 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,080 Yeah, I know we're old. Back when you started your 44 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,680 graduate program at University of Oregon, where I was finishing 45 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,560 up my undergrad. We lived together and we started 46 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,560 our blog, Mary Anning's Revenge, which really, I mean, still had 47 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,480 our same ridiculous sense of humor. 48 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,640 Remember when we were trying to find, like, they were trying to 49 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:30,560 find women to carry a Neanderthal embryo and we just, 50 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,880 like, took pictures of our butts and we were like, hey. 51 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,720 Yeah, exact same horrible sense of humor. 52 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,640 Yeah. And also we largely talked 53 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:45,320 about, you know, Mary Anning's revenge, Mary Anning, a famous 54 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,960 paleontologist, but never got her due credit then or now 55 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,880 really. And the whole point was standing 56 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,560 up and speaking to issues that face all that face all people, 57 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,800 but especially under represented voices in the sciences, such as 58 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,960 being a woman in paleontology. And we were both dealing with 59 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,520 different aspects of that and brought our sense of humor to 60 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,720 it. But it also got really fucking 61 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,440 depressing and. It's a bummer. 62 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,760 I like to think of it as paleontologists and geologists 63 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,600 weren't nice to Mary Anning, and so now you have to fucking deal 64 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,440 with us. Yeah, we could have been so nice 65 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,440 and so happy if this problem got fixed over a century ago, but it 66 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,400 didn't. And as a result, yeah, our blog, 67 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,440 we spent a lot of time talking about cool dead stuff, the same 68 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,360 sort of stuff we do now about weird paleontology art that we 69 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,240 were making. There was a very long section 70 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,360 dedicated to Jello shots and Paleo salty. 71 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,640 Cupcakes, you made the Grand Canyon of Jello shots. 72 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,920 Yeah, it was out of alcoholic jello. 73 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,400 So cool. But also, I think when we had 74 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,240 talked about it, I recall that we were really more interested 75 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,280 in also talking very strongly about some of the issues that we 76 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,280 were facing and some of the issues we knew that our friends 77 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,840 were facing and talking about some of the research behind bias 78 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,360 of various kinds in paleontology and geology. 79 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,720 But that is stuff that is God. It is hard to be bogged down and 80 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,080 for forever. So when we started this podcast, 81 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,120 we were like, well, if it comes up, we'll talk about it. 82 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,399 We'll do a special episode. Epstein file. 83 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,440 Right. I think we were like, I think 84 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,480 I've been like, we'll take a more subtle approach. 85 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,200 This is not subtle. This is not gonna be subtle. 86 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:30,600 I'm pissed off, we're pissed off, we're pissed off, I'm 87 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,640 pissed off. And I have felt ever since I got 88 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,280 this news, which you were the first one to text me, and now 89 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:40,280 since then about 12 other people have reached out to me with this 90 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:45,000 news. I have felt like really elevated 91 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,720 and stressed out and like trouble sleeping and feeling 92 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,720 like, hey, I don't want to go back down that road where we 93 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,040 were so bogged down with these depressing numbers and figures 94 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,080 and data. And I feel a sense of 95 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:03,160 responsibility and I feel like I, I, I have tangential stories 96 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,800 and experiences, experiences to this topic that I haven't really 97 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,720 publicly talked about because I've been very afraid of 98 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,960 blowback and being accused of hearsay and the whisper nest 99 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,520 network, which is largely what the only fucking thing we have 100 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,000 to warn each other, which has been notoriously frustrating. 101 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,280 And we're going to talk a lot about that today. 102 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,360 You know, I reached out to some, some friends of mine who are not 103 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,680 even in paleontology, reached out to me and was like, what the 104 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,400 fuck? And I was like, dude, look at 105 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,680 the shit I found when I worked at that museum. 106 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,280 And they were like, you have to say something. 107 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,440 And I was like, OK, all right, So yeah, we're not here to, 108 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:44,360 like, label anyone or point fingers or do any accusations of 109 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,160 any sort. But we're going to let y'all 110 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,120 know what's been going on in the field of paleontology right now, 111 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,160 some of the different components going on with that and some of 112 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,680 our own personal experiences that are relevant. 113 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,560 And maybe we'll tell some jokes, maybe not so. 114 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,560 We'll probably laugh inappropriately because that's 115 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,280 our stress response. Yeah. 116 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,520 And so here we go. Yeah. 117 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,720 I mean, Jack Horner, famous paleontologist, is in the 118 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,240 Epstein files, and that came to light this weekend. 119 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,720 Many e-mail communications spanning many years, multiple 120 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,480 years of this. So you were the one who told me 121 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:19,680 about it. So how did you hear about it? 122 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,440 Group chat. Yeah, I have a group chat with a 123 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,400 bunch of the ladies that go to the Western Science Center 124 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,400 conference, which is the only conference that I go to now 125 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,920 because of some of the reasons we will discuss today. 126 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,600 It's one of the few conferences where I feel safe. 127 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,200 And yeah, so of course, that's also the group chat where I 128 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,000 think earlier that day I told them that I found a pair of 129 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,360 testicles in the field because the sheep. 130 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,360 Losing their testicles? My God, that's not like 131 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,560 legitimate testicles. I thought you meant like the end 132 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,320 of a femur or something like that. 133 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:55,960 No, I'm. Sorry, I thought that I talked 134 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,680 to you about this so frequently that I didn't bother to send you 135 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,440 a picture. That's my mistake. 136 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,800 Next time there's we have 3 bummer lambs that are boys. 137 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,440 One of them's already lost his balls. 138 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,360 When the next two go, I'll send you some photos of it just for. 139 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,200 You. Anyway, so like, that's the 140 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:13,720 normal stuff that we talk about, right? 141 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:15,480 Yeah. The group chat was like, Oh my 142 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,680 God, Jack Horner is in the Epstein files. 143 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,800 So then I went and looked it up because you can technically be 144 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,840 in the Epstein files, and that's not bad. 145 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,360 For example, I don't like Don Prothero. 146 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,520 He does not like me. I Googled his name in the 147 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,680 Epstein files. It's like, come on, come on. 148 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,680 No, no, He's got many other problems. 149 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,600 He is mentioned twice, but he's mentioned because he was part of 150 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,320 a skeptics conference that Jeffrey Epstein was stoked 151 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,240 about, right. So Jeffrey Epstein for a lot of 152 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,200 various reasons that we will probably not talk about, was 153 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,320 into science and scientists. So sometimes you do just show up 154 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,000 because he was stoked about it. That's not we're neither of us 155 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,720 are in the Epstein files like that's. 156 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,120 Not a thing I should. Have I did. 157 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,160 I'll look for you. You're not, I thought. 158 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,680 Maybe find some juicy gossip of like Jack Horner being like God 159 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,920 that eat me out water. She sucks. 160 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:16,840 Nope, nothing. I don't know. 161 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,480 Yeah, never mind. I don't know how he felt about 162 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,560 me. He does know who I am, and I 163 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,840 don't love that. But anyway. 164 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,600 So for the few folks who may not know who Jack Horner is, I mean, 165 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,040 this is he is by far, in a way, the most well known person in 166 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,640 paleontology, and it's been that way for a couple decades. 167 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,720 Yeah, pressing. Yeah, yeah, Yep. 168 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:39,919 So he is really mostly famous because he served as the 169 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:43,000 technical advisor for the first whatever, however many number 170 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,240 like first five Jurassic Park films. 171 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,840 And supposedly he served as at least partial inspiration for 172 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,520 the lead character, Doctor Alan Grant. 173 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,360 A lot of folks since seeing this connection have said that the 174 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,000 intro to that movie, which I don't really know Jurassic Park, 175 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,040 neither of us are Jurassic Park paleontologist. 176 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,720 So like, I don't know it by heart, but apparently that makes 177 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,880 the beginning of the movie even, like, creepier. 178 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,000 But I don't It does. Yeah. 179 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,920 Why? When we start, OK, we'll get 180 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,760 funding stuff. I think we can bring that up 181 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,080 because I'm not a huge Jurassic Park fan, but I do really like 182 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,760 the first movie. It scared the shit out of me. 183 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,720 It's great. I had nightmares about Raptors 184 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,680 for most of my childhood. But yeah, there are some some 185 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,960 interesting aspects of the way that those projects are funded. 186 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,920 And apparently I honestly like, I don't see a lot of Jack Horner 187 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,840 in Alan Grant. I think that that's a story that 188 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,720 maybe someone made-up to make Jack Horner feel better about 189 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,680 himself. The one place I do see it is 190 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:47,920 taking funding from bad sources, because that happens in the 191 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,320 movie. And admittedly that source gets 192 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,120 eaten in the movie. But like, I guess Jeffrey 193 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:54,440 Epstein did die. Oh my. 194 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:56,400 God, see, here she goes. It's. 195 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,160 Perfect parallels. Still, would it be better to be 196 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,040 the the lawyer right getting eaten on the on the shitter? 197 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,360 On the on the loo. Right. 198 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:07,840 Yeah. And I mean, is Alan Grant's 199 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:09,240 character. I'm so sorry, guys. 200 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,560 This is like some people will think I shouldn't be. 201 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,640 My whole point is, you don't have to fucking like these 202 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,000 movies to be a paleontologist, but I don't know them. 203 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,320 Aren't the Paleobotanist, the chick and Doctor Alan Grant like 204 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,760 an item even though it's like, are they together? 205 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,240 I think technically they're not together. 206 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,320 They are, which actually is one of my. 207 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,680 I love that that's the case, that you can have two 208 00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:30,680 paleontologists who aren't fucking married. 209 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,320 She's a paleo botanist. He's a paleontologist, and 210 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:34,760 they're working together on the same project. 211 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,600 I think she's technically, like, his postdoc. 212 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,080 Oh, OK Grad student. OK. 213 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,200 Which does not make sense if she's studying leaves. 214 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,320 But like, still, it is not a romantic relationship between 215 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:45,080 the two of them. Yeah. 216 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,720 Welcome to our review of the Epstein files and Jurassic. 217 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,760 Amy does not really remember, so that's the big reason that Jack 218 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,640 is famous. He's also very well known 219 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,280 because of his research, which I want to talk about as well at 220 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,240 some point. You know, he gets a lot of 221 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,635 credit for discovering Maiasaura, the good mother 222 00:11:03,635 --> 00:11:06,365 lizard. Also, with that went the 223 00:11:06,365 --> 00:11:08,820 parental care hypothesis. So the idea that dinosaurs 224 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:10,452 actually did care for their young. 225 00:11:10,452 --> 00:11:13,895 I will show you with citations that that is fucking bullshit. 226 00:11:13,895 --> 00:11:15,927 He did not discover Maiasaura at all. 227 00:11:15,927 --> 00:11:19,270 A woman named Marion Brandvold discovered Maiasaura and he took 228 00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:23,170 those eggs and he described them and he came up with the name 229 00:11:23,170 --> 00:11:25,224 Maiasaura. And then she had to sue him to 230 00:11:25,224 --> 00:11:28,516 get those fucking fossils back. It took over like, I think it 231 00:11:28,516 --> 00:11:32,328 took like 20-40 years, like many decades that she had to sue 232 00:11:32,328 --> 00:11:35,695 multiple institutions to get those eggs back up to Bynum and 233 00:11:35,695 --> 00:11:37,766 where Egg Mountain, this site famously is. 234 00:11:37,766 --> 00:11:41,374 So again, like we can dive it. I want to dive into more of his 235 00:11:41,374 --> 00:11:42,892 research. But you know, he, he's, he's 236 00:11:42,892 --> 00:11:45,861 given a lot of credit that when you start to dig into it, you 237 00:11:45,861 --> 00:11:47,795 see that it's a bit of smoke and mirrors. 238 00:11:47,795 --> 00:11:51,532 And he's, I've always, you know, I give credit where credit is 239 00:11:51,532 --> 00:11:53,159 due. I admire a con man. 240 00:11:53,159 --> 00:11:56,548 You know, I'm not saying that he is not saying that. 241 00:11:56,548 --> 00:12:00,135 I'm saying in my personal history, I admire charisma. 242 00:12:00,135 --> 00:12:04,278 I'm not going to lie. However, you have to do good 243 00:12:04,278 --> 00:12:07,052 with said not saying he did it anyway. 244 00:12:07,052 --> 00:12:10,998 He's very good at getting credit for things that when you again, 245 00:12:10,998 --> 00:12:14,220 start to dissect it a little bit more, it's a little more 246 00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:18,520 complicated than that. And he's also very famous for 247 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,660 marrying a 19 year old undergraduate student of his at 248 00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:27,868 Montana State University in 2012 when he was in his late 60s. 249 00:12:27,868 --> 00:12:29,272 I think it was. Yeah. 250 00:12:29,272 --> 00:12:34,868 It's. 65 I think. Yes, so that made a lot of news. 251 00:12:34,868 --> 00:12:37,660 The photos were interesting. Very disturbing. 252 00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:39,874 I saw someone on Reddit discard this. 253 00:12:39,874 --> 00:12:43,775 Like, who is this Benjamin Franklin motherfucker doing with 254 00:12:43,775 --> 00:12:48,942 this this like beautiful woman? It's just like who does Jack 255 00:12:48,942 --> 00:12:53,460 Jack Order has has made the scullet as infamous as you can. 256 00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:54,948 Yeah, he. It's true. 257 00:12:54,948 --> 00:12:57,418 That is 1 defining characteristic of that 258 00:12:57,418 --> 00:12:59,423 generation of paleontologists is the scullet. 259 00:12:59,423 --> 00:13:01,960 And you can have that on the record as facts. 260 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,376 I don't care. That's not hearsay, that's 261 00:13:04,376 --> 00:13:06,432 facts. You go to a conference with 262 00:13:06,432 --> 00:13:09,090 aging paleontologists, you see 1000 mullets, and you see 263 00:13:09,090 --> 00:13:10,545 inappropriate use of cowboy boots. 264 00:13:10,545 --> 00:13:15,155 Oh my God, I've seen a fucking leather whip at SVP and I'm just 265 00:13:15,155 --> 00:13:19,160 like, I have as well. And these I mean folks, 266 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,067 literally it's usually fanboys and they're dressed in all 267 00:13:22,067 --> 00:13:23,429 leather. I don't know why. 268 00:13:23,429 --> 00:13:26,000 I don't know. I've never done paleontology and 269 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,820 leather. I've never worn the leather 270 00:13:27,820 --> 00:13:29,480 vests. I've never but they follow 271 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:30,160 their. Gloves. 272 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,012 Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, I've used like a leather 273 00:13:33,012 --> 00:13:34,430 belt. Like a hobo. 274 00:13:34,430 --> 00:13:36,440 Right. Well, it's Paleo, but people 275 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,535 like, he'd have like crowds follow him at these meetings 276 00:13:39,535 --> 00:13:41,440 Like they're in. They're usually younger, 277 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,464 usually, usually men who are all dressed like Indiana Jones. 278 00:13:44,464 --> 00:13:46,050 I'm just, I'm like, that's an archaeologist. 279 00:13:46,050 --> 00:13:48,028 I'm so confused. Yeah, straight up leather. 280 00:13:48,028 --> 00:13:51,268 I know you guys are making the problem worse. 281 00:13:51,268 --> 00:13:55,280 Serious, but yeah, he's. The problem of being confused 282 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,565 for archaeologists, of course. That problem, That's really what 283 00:13:57,565 --> 00:14:02,121 we're here to talk about today. The serious shit. 284 00:14:02,121 --> 00:14:04,050 We're not fucking archaeologists. 285 00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:08,316 So get oh, do we have that photo? 286 00:14:08,316 --> 00:14:11,936 I want to we should look at the Vanessa. 287 00:14:11,936 --> 00:14:14,888 Do we have to? Yes, because this one, this is 288 00:14:14,888 --> 00:14:19,134 not just for us. We've seen it but but that's 289 00:14:19,134 --> 00:14:23,035 their wedding photo. OK, Yep, I remember that. 290 00:14:23,035 --> 00:14:25,704 Yep, Yep. I mean, I wasn't there, but I 291 00:14:25,704 --> 00:14:28,560 remember seeing this photo. Well, if you recall Meaghan this 292 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,974 they got married in January of 2012. 293 00:14:30,974 --> 00:14:35,735 SVP, the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology conference in 2011 294 00:14:35,735 --> 00:14:40,012 was at was in Vegas. Some folks have said that it 295 00:14:40,012 --> 00:14:42,440 happened at the conference, but the record state that doesn't 296 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,398 look like they officially got married until January of 2012. 297 00:14:45,398 --> 00:14:49,490 Yeah, I had also heard that they'd gotten married at SVP in 298 00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:52,174 October, but. And maybe they took this 299 00:14:52,174 --> 00:14:54,870 picture. I don't know. 300 00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:56,934 I don't know, you know. I mean, the timing doesn't 301 00:14:56,934 --> 00:14:58,879 matter. They got married in 2012. 302 00:14:58,879 --> 00:15:02,072 So my God, this, this picture is literally on Google. 303 00:15:02,072 --> 00:15:06,512 The first one that pops up is caption Ben Franklin marries 304 00:15:06,512 --> 00:15:09,310 Snooki. I'm sorry Vanessa, you don't 305 00:15:09,310 --> 00:15:10,738 deserve that. You were. 306 00:15:10,738 --> 00:15:13,334 You don't look like Snooki. No. 307 00:15:13,334 --> 00:15:14,932 Jack does look like Ben Franklin. 308 00:15:14,932 --> 00:15:18,010 Jack Ben Franklin died and then was resurrected. 309 00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:23,026 Looks kind of like he's melting. Look, I think that's maybe the 310 00:15:23,026 --> 00:15:24,944 pixelation here, but like all the same. 311 00:15:24,944 --> 00:15:28,130 Oh God, I don't know if I should tell the joke that I know I 312 00:15:28,130 --> 00:15:30,350 made. I know exactly where I was when 313 00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:32,352 we heard that Jack married Vanessa. 314 00:15:32,352 --> 00:15:35,124 Were he measuring things? Probably I was. 315 00:15:35,124 --> 00:15:36,920 In no, that would have been an SVP. 316 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,477 Right. Yeah, I was going to say that's 317 00:15:38,477 --> 00:15:42,880 what we were doing. Let's not, let's not talk about 318 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,975 that. I remember because I was working 319 00:15:44,975 --> 00:15:46,983 in Edwards office. That's where I had my little 320 00:15:46,983 --> 00:15:48,700 desk. This is my undergrad advisor, 321 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:51,053 your PhD advisor. And he was like, Oh my God, he 322 00:15:51,053 --> 00:15:53,620 married that 19 year old and I was 20 at the time. 323 00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:55,854 And I like I remember immediately going Shuck. 324 00:15:55,854 --> 00:16:01,728 So I'm too old for him. That was my response. 325 00:16:01,728 --> 00:16:05,860 So I mean, it was like notoriously like we all thought 326 00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:09,018 it was creepy. And I want to say like no one 327 00:16:09,018 --> 00:16:12,014 was accusing them of any like wrongdoing, or at least that's 328 00:16:12,014 --> 00:16:14,079 it. No, we all thought it was gross 329 00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:16,844 because I'm sorry, in my opinion, it's fucking gross. 330 00:16:16,844 --> 00:16:21,820 But you know, she's an adult and they decided to to do this and. 331 00:16:21,820 --> 00:16:25,372 She's an adult, she can be into zombies. 332 00:16:25,372 --> 00:16:28,395 Like it doesn't, you know, it's not. 333 00:16:28,395 --> 00:16:30,629 Nothing of what they did is illegal. 334 00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:34,200 And I don't think it's immoral either, necessarily, without 335 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,728 knowing significantly more details than I do. 336 00:16:36,728 --> 00:16:37,818 Sure. So that's it. 337 00:16:37,818 --> 00:16:40,088 But it was weird. It's weird, it's weird. 338 00:16:40,088 --> 00:16:42,365 And I guess she wasn't his student. 339 00:16:42,365 --> 00:16:46,170 She was a student in his lab. Yeah, she took a class which. 340 00:16:46,170 --> 00:16:47,800 Seems like a fine scale distinction. 341 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:48,680 Yeah. Yeah. 342 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,430 So she had been his student, but wasn't at that. 343 00:16:52,430 --> 00:16:54,976 Listen guys, you can date students. 344 00:16:54,976 --> 00:16:57,616 Wouldn't recommend it, wouldn't recommend it. 345 00:16:57,616 --> 00:17:00,354 But you can. They're talk to HR. 346 00:17:00,354 --> 00:17:04,682 Talk to HR and if it is genuinely true love, talk to HR 347 00:17:04,682 --> 00:17:08,880 and they'll help you figure out a path where it's not weird and 348 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,007 gross. And also wait. 349 00:17:10,007 --> 00:17:11,912 Wait till they graduate. Just wait. 350 00:17:11,912 --> 00:17:15,702 And he says and you this is you know, this is in People magazine 351 00:17:15,702 --> 00:17:19,839 and all around that he he married her as a bit of a my 352 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,940 interpretation, a fuck you to his his institution museum 353 00:17:22,940 --> 00:17:24,609 Rockies at Montana State University. 354 00:17:24,609 --> 00:17:26,880 Don't do that. That's not a great way of 355 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:27,846 approaching it. Right. 356 00:17:27,846 --> 00:17:32,257 And he claims that marrying her is what led to him being pushed 357 00:17:32,257 --> 00:17:36,586 out of Museum of the Rockies, where he retired in 2016 and 358 00:17:36,586 --> 00:17:40,240 claimed and went to media sources saying it was 359 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,420 essentially A conspiracy and that the executive director and 360 00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:46,234 the director of paleontology who were married, we're forcing him 361 00:17:46,234 --> 00:17:47,852 out. And I've got some stories about 362 00:17:47,852 --> 00:17:51,338 them if we have time. Didn't he get divorced in 2016 363 00:17:51,338 --> 00:17:53,860 as. Well, I mean, we don't know, but 364 00:17:53,860 --> 00:17:56,798 the timing would indicate that it was it was performative. 365 00:17:56,798 --> 00:17:59,730 He calls himself like a, you know, contrarian like that. 366 00:17:59,730 --> 00:18:01,920 He like, he's a rebel. I was. 367 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,596 I spent my evening last night going through his Instagram, 368 00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:07,865 which was depressing as all fuck. 369 00:18:07,865 --> 00:18:11,550 And yeah, I love it when, like old white men in positions of 370 00:18:11,550 --> 00:18:16,188 power are like, I just always go against the grain and I'm like, 371 00:18:16,188 --> 00:18:20,020 I'm a rebel. And I'm like, on what fucking 372 00:18:20,020 --> 00:18:22,544 planet are? You going against what? 373 00:18:22,544 --> 00:18:26,608 Like he's like, I challenge authority and I'm like, how, how 374 00:18:26,608 --> 00:18:30,900 do marrying a 19 year old that's the most fucking like midlife 375 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:34,296 crisis or like past midlife crisis thing that you can do? 376 00:18:34,296 --> 00:18:35,950 That's not that's not challenging. 377 00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:39,267 Classics, right, dude? That's classical, dude. 378 00:18:39,267 --> 00:18:44,675 But isn't it classical dude to also think doing that is is the 379 00:18:44,675 --> 00:18:46,949 challenge? Like they don't get it, the 380 00:18:46,949 --> 00:18:47,860 self-awareness. Is radical. 381 00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:53,122 I'm not going to say anything about my own father in that, but 382 00:18:53,122 --> 00:18:57,600 he has some of these traits that are also interesting. 383 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,303 So, yeah, I mean, we'll probably touch on the Vanessa side of 384 00:19:01,303 --> 00:19:03,584 things. She still is somewhat involved 385 00:19:03,584 --> 00:19:06,054 in paleontology. Oh yeah, no, she's she's working 386 00:19:06,054 --> 00:19:07,023 as a paleontologist. Yeah. 387 00:19:07,023 --> 00:19:09,320 So, yeah, I've heard it's been, you know, through the Grapevine, 388 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,170 I've heard things have been bumpy and things have been, you 389 00:19:12,170 --> 00:19:15,158 know, interesting. I can't confirm any of those 390 00:19:15,158 --> 00:19:19,008 details I heard from my. That's also paleontology, right? 391 00:19:19,008 --> 00:19:22,485 Who doesn't have a bumpy career path in Paleo? 392 00:19:22,485 --> 00:19:24,389 But so I worked at Museum of the Rockies. 393 00:19:24,389 --> 00:19:27,055 One of the reasons I feel passionate about doing this is 394 00:19:27,055 --> 00:19:29,498 to to cleanse my soul of that. Yeah. 395 00:19:29,498 --> 00:19:31,540 And to just be transparent about it. 396 00:19:31,540 --> 00:19:34,944 Because he was gone by the time that you were there. 397 00:19:34,944 --> 00:19:38,224 When did you start working at the Museum of the Rockies? 398 00:19:38,224 --> 00:19:43,048 I started working at Museum of the Rockies on like November 4th 399 00:19:43,048 --> 00:19:48,526 or 6th of 2017. He retired, yeah, in 2016 I 400 00:19:48,526 --> 00:19:51,608 think. Like the spring, summer of 2016. 401 00:19:51,608 --> 00:19:56,932 And yeah, I can talk about what I was told literally during my 402 00:19:56,932 --> 00:19:59,912 interview. I guess what I can say is from 403 00:19:59,912 --> 00:20:04,144 everything I've known and heard when I saw that he was in the 404 00:20:04,144 --> 00:20:07,594 Epstein files. I, like many others, were not in 405 00:20:07,594 --> 00:20:11,544 the least bit surprised. I mean, I was surprised because 406 00:20:11,544 --> 00:20:16,158 it feels like a a worse level of stuff, like just the implication 407 00:20:16,158 --> 00:20:19,060 of being in the Epstein files, not anything he necessarily did 408 00:20:19,060 --> 00:20:22,040 in the Epstein files. But if I had to pick a 409 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,497 paleontologist that I thought was going to be in the Epstein 410 00:20:24,497 --> 00:20:26,760 files, yeah, it would, it would have been Jack Korner. 411 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,200 Yeah. And then but. 412 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,728 Yeah, you know what? That is the name. 413 00:20:30,728 --> 00:20:32,985 I was hanging out with Josh Lively this weekend at Dino 414 00:20:32,985 --> 00:20:35,826 Fest, and when I told him he's like, yeah, just like, and I was 415 00:20:35,826 --> 00:20:37,872 like, hey, I was on that investigation too. 416 00:20:37,872 --> 00:20:42,640 I've been a part of three campus investigations about luckily, I 417 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,800 mean, luckily I can't, you know, I'm not going to speak for you 418 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,008 on this, but luckily I was not a direct victim of any of these. 419 00:20:50,008 --> 00:20:53,184 Well, that's not true. One of them, I was two of them, 420 00:20:53,184 --> 00:20:55,574 University of Oregon, I was more of a witness. 421 00:20:55,574 --> 00:20:59,524 University of Texas, I was more of a witness when it happened at 422 00:20:59,524 --> 00:21:02,022 Montana State University. I was one of the victims there. 423 00:21:02,022 --> 00:21:04,784 So yeah, I've been a part of like three of these 424 00:21:04,784 --> 00:21:06,970 investigations and they are not fun. 425 00:21:06,970 --> 00:21:08,978 They are not. Fun. 426 00:21:08,978 --> 00:21:10,940 No, I have also been a part of these investigations. 427 00:21:10,940 --> 00:21:13,976 I have been part of these investigations through the 428 00:21:13,976 --> 00:21:16,480 private sector. Then I was part of the 429 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:17,865 investigations at University of Oregon. 430 00:21:17,865 --> 00:21:22,499 And yeah, it's, I mean, it's not fun to be a victim of sexual 431 00:21:22,499 --> 00:21:26,264 harassment and assault, but it's also not fun to have to talk to 432 00:21:26,264 --> 00:21:27,507 people about it. That's. 433 00:21:27,507 --> 00:21:30,592 And they make it deliberately challenging to do so. 434 00:21:30,592 --> 00:21:33,598 And I'm saying they, I went through pregnancy discrimination 435 00:21:33,598 --> 00:21:36,895 at the USGS and I had to fight tooth and nail. 436 00:21:36,895 --> 00:21:40,584 And even though the system was in place, being the federal 437 00:21:40,584 --> 00:21:45,626 government, all of the hoops and obstacles that they put on me 438 00:21:45,626 --> 00:21:50,116 within time limits and details and how much time and making me 439 00:21:50,116 --> 00:21:53,730 repeat the same stories like 5 or 6 times to different people 440 00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:56,392 who are. It's like it takes every little 441 00:21:56,392 --> 00:21:59,860 bit out of you. It's a huge time suck. 442 00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:03,426 It reopens every single the worst things that have ever 443 00:22:03,426 --> 00:22:06,862 happened to you, they want you to describe in the most bland 444 00:22:06,862 --> 00:22:08,976 detail over and over again to all. 445 00:22:08,976 --> 00:22:11,360 These multiple times because they want to make sure you're 446 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:12,918 not lying. They want to make sure that 447 00:22:12,918 --> 00:22:16,285 you're telling the same story over and over again and what a 448 00:22:16,285 --> 00:22:18,260 way to relive the traumatizing event. 449 00:22:18,260 --> 00:22:20,046 Yep. Over and over and over again, 450 00:22:20,046 --> 00:22:20,980 yeah. Yeah. 451 00:22:20,980 --> 00:22:23,940 And so folks are just like, oh, well, people didn't report it. 452 00:22:23,940 --> 00:22:26,802 And it's like, well, First off, a lot of people do report. 453 00:22:26,802 --> 00:22:29,094 And we're going to talk about that in the context of the 454 00:22:29,094 --> 00:22:30,095 Society of Vertebrate Paleontology. 455 00:22:30,095 --> 00:22:34,565 And we we can't talk about that without addressing the fact that 456 00:22:34,565 --> 00:22:36,795 the reporting process is notoriously problematic. 457 00:22:36,795 --> 00:22:40,275 And this is well documented. We're not the only ones who've 458 00:22:40,275 --> 00:22:41,938 who see this and understand this. 459 00:22:41,938 --> 00:22:44,650 This is this is relatively well known. 460 00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:49,308 So it's complicated. And I was luckily never an 461 00:22:49,308 --> 00:22:51,725 investigation involved with anything with Jack because 462 00:22:51,725 --> 00:22:53,610 again, I started working at. Museum. 463 00:22:53,610 --> 00:22:56,330 Movies a year. We're talking about completely 464 00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:59,192 other people because that's how fucking pervasive this. 465 00:22:59,192 --> 00:23:02,144 Unfortunately, yeah. I mean, on one hand, I mean, I 466 00:23:02,144 --> 00:23:09,360 was, I was just in front of Jim Kirkland and I was like Greg 467 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:14,550 Retallack, Don Prothero, you know, like, and he was like, 468 00:23:14,550 --> 00:23:16,104 whoa, whoa. I had no idea. 469 00:23:16,104 --> 00:23:17,646 And I'm like, what a fucking privilege. 470 00:23:17,646 --> 00:23:21,455 Well, how nice that you don't have to hear about what young 471 00:23:21,455 --> 00:23:23,224 women tell me about that. What? 472 00:23:23,224 --> 00:23:26,804 When I oh, yeah. I mean, we're going to bleep all 473 00:23:26,804 --> 00:23:30,452 these names just. I think we cannot bleep Greg 474 00:23:30,452 --> 00:23:32,112 Retallack. I think maybe it's time to 475 00:23:32,112 --> 00:23:35,340 that's what I was a part of at University of Oregon is after 476 00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:37,816 years of sexual harassment, he groped my boob. 477 00:23:37,816 --> 00:23:42,584 At a party, like, at a fucking like, it's like a department 478 00:23:42,584 --> 00:23:45,862 event, yes. And I just remembered during the 479 00:23:45,862 --> 00:23:49,140 like this has happened, not that specific event, but like that 480 00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:52,249 sort of shit has happened to me. It's happened to you multiple 481 00:23:52,249 --> 00:23:55,650 times to the extent where now I fully dissociate when things 482 00:23:55,650 --> 00:23:59,610 like that happen to me. Which made it even worse when I 483 00:23:59,610 --> 00:24:02,960 was trying to give testimony because I just remember like at 484 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,872 one point looking at my e-mail inbox after they'd started the 485 00:24:06,872 --> 00:24:09,616 investigation and seeing 2 emails in a row. 486 00:24:09,616 --> 00:24:13,376 And one of them was from a mom who wanted me to talk to her 487 00:24:13,376 --> 00:24:14,740 daughter about becoming a scientist. 488 00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:19,315 And the next was from HR at University of Oregon asking me 489 00:24:19,315 --> 00:24:23,520 to confirm the dates on an event that I had already told them. 490 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,000 I was so dissociated. I can tell you vaguely what 491 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,084 happened. I cannot tell you when I can't 492 00:24:28,084 --> 00:24:29,988 tell you what time. Like I don't. 493 00:24:29,988 --> 00:24:33,140 You have to like, I don't know. I was out of it. 494 00:24:33,140 --> 00:24:35,663 I was a fucking zombie. I was out of you were 495 00:24:35,663 --> 00:24:37,120 protecting. Yourself, yeah, you were going 496 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:39,970 into fight or flight and shutting down to just be able to 497 00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:43,264 get through, which means your memory is going to be not as at 498 00:24:43,264 --> 00:24:45,522 its best. But that's like part of being a 499 00:24:45,522 --> 00:24:48,434 woman in STEM, I feel like, is that disconnect where everyone 500 00:24:48,434 --> 00:24:51,854 wants to get more women in STEM, and for what? 501 00:24:51,854 --> 00:24:55,544 So the right, right, we don't want to actually protect the 502 00:24:55,544 --> 00:24:58,664 ones that are already in STEM, which would make it safe for 503 00:24:58,664 --> 00:25:01,791 more people to join STEM. Yeah, and I remember. 504 00:25:01,791 --> 00:25:03,912 Although you and I have a good success rate. 505 00:25:03,912 --> 00:25:07,932 And we might have to, I mean, I don't know, he got himself fired 506 00:25:07,932 --> 00:25:10,354 and like, yeah, what he did to me was fucked up. 507 00:25:10,354 --> 00:25:13,972 But that was actually not even I think what got him in the end. 508 00:25:13,972 --> 00:25:17,560 He was well known for just really some sketchy, some 509 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,475 sketchy shit that he was pulling. 510 00:25:19,475 --> 00:25:23,455 But I do remember when HR was they had a climate survey and 511 00:25:23,455 --> 00:25:26,265 they were talking about like, OK, so what's it like? 512 00:25:26,265 --> 00:25:29,184 Like, what's like? And I was like, Oh, well, he 513 00:25:29,184 --> 00:25:32,279 gets like crazy drunk. Like he makes let's go to his 514 00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:35,860 Country Club, which for every like, staff related workshop or 515 00:25:35,860 --> 00:25:39,136 dinner or meeting, Lord knows the number of times I was at 516 00:25:39,136 --> 00:25:41,420 that Country Club. And he would get fucking 517 00:25:41,420 --> 00:25:43,082 plastered. I mean, this man, I've never 518 00:25:43,082 --> 00:25:44,890 seen someone drink. Like this guy would drink. 519 00:25:44,890 --> 00:25:49,019 And then he'd get handsy and then he would give us these long 520 00:25:49,019 --> 00:25:51,646 hugs and sloppy kisses on our cheeks. 521 00:25:51,646 --> 00:25:54,160 And I remember when I was telling HR about that and 522 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,840 they're like, well, yeah, but did he grab you? 523 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,255 And I was like, are you asking if he like, literally put his 524 00:25:58,255 --> 00:26:01,874 hands on my ass or my tits? Like, no, he just kissed my face 525 00:26:01,874 --> 00:26:03,960 drunkenly and they were like oh OK. 526 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:11,818 And I was like what the fuck? Like, Oh my. 527 00:26:11,818 --> 00:26:14,868 God, Oh my God. OK, so that's chill. 528 00:26:14,868 --> 00:26:17,750 I mean, it is Montana. Everyone has a drinking problem 529 00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:20,470 in Montana, so. I don't get like that when I 530 00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:23,136 drunk. I go to sleep so or I play hide 531 00:26:23,136 --> 00:26:25,765 and seek and don't tell people that we're playing, which just 532 00:26:25,765 --> 00:26:28,480 means I run away. It's called an Irish exit. 533 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,980 Megan problems. I'd like that too. 534 00:26:31,980 --> 00:26:35,917 I would just disappear. Yeah or yeah, I just yeah, yeah. 535 00:26:35,917 --> 00:26:38,896 Take a long bath. Yeah, we just start. 536 00:26:38,896 --> 00:26:40,112 Yeah. We're built from different 537 00:26:40,112 --> 00:26:42,310 stocks. So let's chat about what is 538 00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:44,044 with, right? Let's get back. 539 00:26:44,044 --> 00:26:47,240 To Anyway, so Jack Horner is in the Epstein files. 540 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,503 It isn't just one correspondence. 541 00:26:49,503 --> 00:26:54,590 In fact, let's see on Reddit, Benjamin Molar, who is also on 542 00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:58,530 Blue Sky, put together a timeline of Jack Horner and the 543 00:26:58,530 --> 00:27:02,510 Jeffrey Epstein contact based on the Department of Justice newest 544 00:27:02,510 --> 00:27:07,402 release where he said he goes through about 100 or 470 Epstein 545 00:27:07,402 --> 00:27:11,340 files and looking for things for Jack Horner, his MSU e-mail 546 00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:13,585 address or the phrase Dino Chicken. 547 00:27:13,585 --> 00:27:18,455 And then like sites, a bunch of them. 548 00:27:18,455 --> 00:27:20,160 The one that has been cited the most. 549 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,690 So a lot of the Montana newspapers have picked this up. 550 00:27:22,690 --> 00:27:26,681 And the thing that has been cited the most is that Jack went 551 00:27:26,681 --> 00:27:29,708 to visit Epstein on his ranch in New Mexico. 552 00:27:29,708 --> 00:27:32,469 We see the tickets. There's a confirmed that they're 553 00:27:32,469 --> 00:27:34,960 paid for and we can see the names, everything. 554 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,814 Jack definitely went. Jack has said he went, he's made 555 00:27:37,814 --> 00:27:40,350 a statement. He has confirmed that he did go. 556 00:27:40,350 --> 00:27:43,660 And in that e-mail, thanking Jeff Epstein, he refers to 557 00:27:43,660 --> 00:27:47,068 spending time with you and the girls, and he consistently 558 00:27:47,068 --> 00:27:50,372 refers to it to as you and the girls. 559 00:27:50,372 --> 00:27:54,350 And he ends his e-mail on September 1st, 2012 with please 560 00:27:54,350 --> 00:27:59,768 give all the girls my very best wishes and to you whom I envy, 561 00:27:59,768 --> 00:28:01,795 thanks again, Jack. Yep. 562 00:28:01,795 --> 00:28:07,589 So he claims in his statement that I think you have the 563 00:28:07,589 --> 00:28:09,700 screenshot. Of I did Google this because I 564 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,660 don't know very much about Jeffrey Epstein other than, you 565 00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:14,607 know, like the biggest news headline. 566 00:28:14,607 --> 00:28:17,822 No, they don't have kids. Or maybe they have a secret 567 00:28:17,822 --> 00:28:20,054 baby, but that's not like, oh, your daughters. 568 00:28:20,054 --> 00:28:22,006 Yeah, congratulations on your daughters. 569 00:28:22,006 --> 00:28:25,780 Well, well, I think it's even. I think it's really worse. 570 00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:29,649 Than Jack's statement that he says yes, I went there and he 571 00:28:29,649 --> 00:28:33,815 says there were four female students who I regret referring 572 00:28:33,815 --> 00:28:38,562 to as the girls. So now many, many years later, 573 00:28:38,562 --> 00:28:42,552 14 years later, 413 1/2 years later, he is claiming they're 574 00:28:42,552 --> 00:28:45,468 actually, they were actually students, but we don't have. 575 00:28:45,468 --> 00:28:47,275 He's claiming they're college students. 576 00:28:47,275 --> 00:28:51,500 Yeah, who were introduced to me as college students, two of whom 577 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:54,286 claimed to be adept in genetics. Which is? 578 00:28:54,286 --> 00:28:57,461 That's from his statement posted on February 5th. 579 00:28:57,461 --> 00:28:59,694 On Facebook, right? Which is when we're filming 580 00:28:59,694 --> 00:29:02,269 this. And yeah, I mean, it sounds like 581 00:29:02,269 --> 00:29:06,194 there was some interest in. I knew I wasn't surprised at all 582 00:29:06,194 --> 00:29:09,108 that Jack's explanation started with how hard it is to get 583 00:29:09,108 --> 00:29:11,742 funding in the sciences. I predicted that that would be 584 00:29:11,742 --> 00:29:15,118 his excuse is that he was just trying to find funding and 585 00:29:15,118 --> 00:29:17,392 scientific funding is so hard to come by. 586 00:29:17,392 --> 00:29:21,096 You just have to just bleed the beast and get the funds where 587 00:29:21,096 --> 00:29:24,343 you can because it's. I literally write grants for a 588 00:29:24,343 --> 00:29:26,064 living. I've raised almost 750,000 589 00:29:26,064 --> 00:29:28,680 fucking dollars this year on an exhibit. 590 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,560 So I'm sorry. I feel really good about all the 591 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,155 foundations and organizations I have worked with to make that 592 00:29:35,155 --> 00:29:37,497 happen. So I'm not the right person to 593 00:29:37,497 --> 00:29:41,050 be like, oh, it's so hard. You and I have both been awarded 594 00:29:41,050 --> 00:29:44,050 NSF grants. You can get funding to do your 595 00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:47,549 science if it's good science. I mean, at least in my 596 00:29:47,549 --> 00:29:48,734 experience. That's my opinion. 597 00:29:48,734 --> 00:29:53,685 Yeah, so maybe we should talk about the link to Alan Grant. 598 00:29:53,685 --> 00:29:58,064 So Alan Grant, fictional person, Jurassic Park, the way that 599 00:29:58,064 --> 00:30:00,110 Jurassic Park. This is a review of Jurassic 600 00:30:00,110 --> 00:30:03,680 Park for Amy Allen, who does not remember the crowd and fucking 601 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,720 crowd. Yeah, the movie starts with the 602 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,500 crazy benefactor flying a helicopter into the dig where 603 00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:14,512 they are using technology that does not exist to view a 604 00:30:14,512 --> 00:30:18,050 dinosaur under the ground. Dad, I have used the real 605 00:30:18,050 --> 00:30:21,136 version of that technology and it does not look like that. 606 00:30:21,136 --> 00:30:26,400 Way harder to interpret. The one thing I do know is it's 607 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,261 a velociraptor specimen and they're in Montana. 608 00:30:28,261 --> 00:30:30,814 Suck my Dick. That's a Mongolian taxon. 609 00:30:30,814 --> 00:30:35,184 Come on. I mean, I've used that sort of 610 00:30:35,184 --> 00:30:38,340 like ground penetrating radar. It's still hard to identify 611 00:30:38,340 --> 00:30:43,600 pipes, let alone a velociraptor. So anyways, flies in, does some 612 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,088 fake science, and he basically informs the two paleontologists 613 00:30:47,088 --> 00:30:51,582 that he's willing to fund them for an amount that I think it 614 00:30:51,582 --> 00:30:55,837 was like 100 grand, which seemed insane in the 90s, but now it's 615 00:30:55,837 --> 00:30:58,023 like that's a year. So. 616 00:30:58,023 --> 00:31:02,136 But as long as they just come to his park where people end up 617 00:31:02,136 --> 00:31:04,520 getting spoiler alert for Jurassic Park. 618 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,418 And killed. Look at that. 619 00:31:06,418 --> 00:31:10,989 That part I know. His island today, Oh my God, a 620 00:31:10,989 --> 00:31:15,344 wealthy benefactor flies in and promises the money if they come 621 00:31:15,344 --> 00:31:18,336 to his fucking island. Jack Horner, we don't know if he 622 00:31:18,336 --> 00:31:19,247 went to Jeffrey Epstein's island. 623 00:31:19,247 --> 00:31:21,780 We just know that he. Went we are not saying anything. 624 00:31:21,780 --> 00:31:25,140 We are just presenting this curious evidence for every 625 00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:29,396 person to make their own decision and connection to. 626 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:31,660 But great, wonderful. Yeah, OK. 627 00:31:31,660 --> 00:31:34,780 And it's all this like genetic modification and engineering, 628 00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:37,435 which I've heard that Jeffrey Epstein was very interested in. 629 00:31:37,435 --> 00:31:40,960 I think a lot of this starts to get really close to a eugenics 630 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,567 kind of argument, which is. Oh, not close, but right. 631 00:31:44,567 --> 00:31:45,425 Yeah. Yeah. 632 00:31:45,425 --> 00:31:48,260 So Jack Horner is not the only person mentioned. 633 00:31:48,260 --> 00:31:51,527 I mean obviously not the only person mentioned in the Epstein 634 00:31:51,527 --> 00:31:54,228 files. He's also he's just paleo. 635 00:31:54,228 --> 00:31:56,824 He's not our pony. Scientist mentioned in the 636 00:31:56,824 --> 00:32:00,432 Epstein files, He's not the only paleontologist mentioned in the 637 00:32:00,432 --> 00:32:05,664 Epstein files, but what he is mentioned for quite a lot is 638 00:32:05,664 --> 00:32:09,802 this chicken asaurus project. And when you look at like, 639 00:32:09,802 --> 00:32:12,937 Jeffrey Epstein's interactions with science, it seems very much 640 00:32:12,937 --> 00:32:16,624 like a he had a very strong interest in science and 641 00:32:16,624 --> 00:32:19,972 scientists, Like a lot of the emails where things like Don 642 00:32:19,972 --> 00:32:23,620 Prothero popped up are just like conferences that it seemed like 643 00:32:23,620 --> 00:32:26,840 maybe Jeffrey was interested in attending and watching or like 644 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,260 letting Jeffrey know that something was interesting. 645 00:32:29,260 --> 00:32:32,384 Like it's not necessarily, you know, that that's scientist knew 646 00:32:32,384 --> 00:32:34,568 that something was going. I think this is the case with 647 00:32:34,568 --> 00:32:36,896 Neil Schumann is that he was invited to go do something and 648 00:32:36,896 --> 00:32:39,290 he said no, Yeah. And that's why he's in the. 649 00:32:39,290 --> 00:32:41,120 He's still in there, right. Yeah, right. 650 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,260 But like, it sounds like Jeffrey, in addition to curating 651 00:32:44,260 --> 00:32:47,334 politicians, he also seemed to curate quite a lot of 652 00:32:47,334 --> 00:32:50,057 scientists. And it sounds like part of that 653 00:32:50,057 --> 00:32:54,134 is, you know, his interest in science, part of it is interest 654 00:32:54,134 --> 00:32:56,780 in controlling people. I imagine that if you need 655 00:32:56,780 --> 00:32:59,768 somebody to vouch for you, it probably looks better sometimes 656 00:32:59,768 --> 00:33:02,385 if a scientist of some kind for you. 657 00:33:02,385 --> 00:33:06,440 And part of it was that these rich motherfuckers all seem to 658 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,635 be really interested in eugenics. 659 00:33:08,635 --> 00:33:12,720 And so a lot of that research was about genetics and 660 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,588 specifically getting at things like genetic programming. 661 00:33:15,588 --> 00:33:19,992 And even then, Epstein did not fund Jack Horn. 662 00:33:19,992 --> 00:33:21,868 Dino chicken. Dino Chicken. 663 00:33:21,868 --> 00:33:24,790 Breast well, cuz he. Eventually gonna work. 664 00:33:24,790 --> 00:33:29,398 But he did eventually pay $10,000 to the Conference of the 665 00:33:29,398 --> 00:33:33,788 Rockies for a conference in which that was like some of the 666 00:33:33,788 --> 00:33:37,200 topics, right? But there was someone who did 667 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,404 fund the Chickenosaurus project, which by the way, we just double 668 00:33:40,404 --> 00:33:42,824 checked, doesn't seem like anything has actually come out 669 00:33:42,824 --> 00:33:44,830 of the Chickenosaurus project. There's no publications. 670 00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:46,480 Yeah. Oh, by the way, yeah. 671 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,360 To just explain the Dino chicken chickenosaurus, he's quite well 672 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,425 known for these pretty kooky ideas. 673 00:33:51,425 --> 00:33:55,240 Or just, you know, again, he's a big personality whether or not 674 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,019 anyway he wants to essentially reverse engineer a chicken back 675 00:33:59,019 --> 00:34:02,715 into AT Rex and he believes that this didn't possible. 676 00:34:02,715 --> 00:34:05,000 Learn the lessons of Jurassic Park. 677 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,600 Right, right. And I've heard that even places 678 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,560 like Tyson and all these other chicken processing plants are 679 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,893 interested in some of this research because they do want to 680 00:34:13,893 --> 00:34:16,340 make bigger chickens. Of course, has to eat. 681 00:34:16,340 --> 00:34:19,024 Yeah, yeah, of course. Also fucked up SO. 682 00:34:19,024 --> 00:34:21,985 So yeah, he had this project where he wanted to reverse 683 00:34:21,985 --> 00:34:23,507 engineer a dinosaur out of a chicken. 684 00:34:23,507 --> 00:34:26,634 It's called the chicken Asaurus. That's not like a derogatory 685 00:34:26,634 --> 00:34:28,685 term. I think he even he uses it. 686 00:34:28,685 --> 00:34:30,534 But it's a crazy project. Scientifically. 687 00:34:30,534 --> 00:34:35,027 It sounds pointless and stupid, and that's my opinion. 688 00:34:35,027 --> 00:34:38,918 But also probably it's fast. I think that's why he probably 689 00:34:38,918 --> 00:34:43,192 couldn't get funding anywhere except right through Nathan 690 00:34:43,192 --> 00:34:45,501 Myhrvold. I realized I didn't know how to 691 00:34:45,501 --> 00:34:48,474 say his last name, but I decided that I was going to refuse to 692 00:34:48,474 --> 00:34:51,822 look it up because guess who else is in the fucking Epstein 693 00:34:51,822 --> 00:34:53,975 files? This dude Nathan Myhrvold. 694 00:34:53,975 --> 00:34:57,875 Who is he used to work for Bill Gates. 695 00:34:57,875 --> 00:35:01,000 He's like a big tech guy. Yeah, he then went in like 696 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,548 helped fund a whole lot of paleontology stuff, not just 697 00:35:03,548 --> 00:35:06,367 Jack Horner stuff, but other people's stuff, too. 698 00:35:06,367 --> 00:35:10,254 Also involved with Robert Reisz, who again, I don't want to, I 699 00:35:10,254 --> 00:35:13,045 don't care to learn how to pronounce his fucking last name. 700 00:35:13,045 --> 00:35:16,400 But the dude from Toronto who's a piece of shit, you can also 701 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,048 Google that. Problematic person, Yes. 702 00:35:18,048 --> 00:35:21,690 Not one of the names we bleeped earlier because there's. 703 00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:24,370 Lots. No, and that one has already 704 00:35:24,370 --> 00:35:27,150 been public and is public knowledge, but not that anything 705 00:35:27,150 --> 00:35:29,420 has been done about it as far as I know. 706 00:35:29,420 --> 00:35:32,880 But yeah, this this other guy who has also then ended up being 707 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,761 a co-author on quite a lot of these paleontology papers. 708 00:35:35,761 --> 00:35:39,305 I mean, he's paying for people to like go to Mongolia and stuff 709 00:35:39,305 --> 00:35:43,640 and like dig up dinosaurs. And he is not only in the 710 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,094 Epstein files, he is in there despite his deny. 711 00:35:47,094 --> 00:35:50,790 He denied, I guess, like before this last round of Epstein files 712 00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:54,120 came out that like, oh, he had like met Jeffrey Epstein, but 713 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,686 they weren't close friends or whatever. 714 00:35:55,686 --> 00:35:59,800 And then in the fall, Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book was 715 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,215 released. And I guess this birthday book 716 00:36:02,215 --> 00:36:06,432 was like, just like a set of horrendous signatures and weird 717 00:36:06,432 --> 00:36:10,368 letters to the known pervert and child molester Jeffrey Epstein. 718 00:36:10,368 --> 00:36:14,128 And it was divided up into things like family, friends, 719 00:36:14,128 --> 00:36:17,720 science and then like a couple other categories. 720 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,708 And Nathan was not in science. He was in friends. 721 00:36:21,708 --> 00:36:26,294 Oh, and his letter, I do have a copy of it. 722 00:36:26,294 --> 00:36:30,035 And yeah, like, it's, It's long. First off, I think it's longer 723 00:36:30,035 --> 00:36:32,610 than Donald Trump's weird letter with the weird illustration of 724 00:36:32,610 --> 00:36:34,820 the girl's body. It starts out with, I've 725 00:36:34,820 --> 00:36:37,114 agonized long and hard about what to write for your birthday. 726 00:36:37,114 --> 00:36:39,690 And then it goes into la, la, la, la, la, la, la. 727 00:36:39,690 --> 00:36:42,716 A few years ago, somebody at a party asked me, does Jeffrey 728 00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:46,232 Epstein manage your money? I replied no, but he advises me 729 00:36:46,232 --> 00:36:48,632 on lifestyle. Eyes bugged out of his head. 730 00:36:48,632 --> 00:36:52,510 And he said, really? So yeah, very funny, very funny, 731 00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:55,181 right The. Things you choose. 732 00:36:55,181 --> 00:36:56,555 To brag about. Yeah. 733 00:36:56,555 --> 00:37:00,440 And you know, I'm, I didn't look too deep into it 'cause it was 734 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,160 just too depressing. But I wanted to know a little 735 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,710 bit more about this dude. I didn't know too much about him 736 00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:08,762 because I don't study dinosaurs so I haven't been on projects 737 00:37:08,762 --> 00:37:11,060 that would be funded by this guy. 738 00:37:11,060 --> 00:37:14,292 Right. And I found an e-mail from 739 00:37:14,292 --> 00:37:19,307 December 21st 2011 that says from Nathan Myhrvold to Jeffrey 740 00:37:19,307 --> 00:37:21,094 Epstein. Are you on the island? 741 00:37:21,094 --> 00:37:24,547 I am on the boat in the area and might be able to stop by in the 742 00:37:24,547 --> 00:37:27,520 afternoon. Which implies to me that it's 743 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,512 real casual visiting Jeffrey's fucking notorious island. 744 00:37:30,512 --> 00:37:32,412 So if. You're in the inner circle. 745 00:37:32,412 --> 00:37:35,454 If you're in the inner circle, potentially, Hypothetically, 746 00:37:35,454 --> 00:37:38,367 yeah. When was the birthday letter 747 00:37:38,367 --> 00:37:40,084 written? Oh, I don't know. 748 00:37:40,084 --> 00:37:43,640 Is there a date on this one? So no, I don't know. 749 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,990 That's where. Google it, we got it right like 750 00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:47,818 we have to like for timeline wise. 751 00:37:47,818 --> 00:37:49,852 So some folks might be saying too. 752 00:37:49,852 --> 00:37:53,386 I mean, Jack's his other excuse besides the fact that he said it 753 00:37:53,386 --> 00:37:56,760 was that they were students, not girls, and he was envious 754 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,600 because let's read fossils that they found on his layout. 755 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:00,983 Let's read his statement really fast. 756 00:38:00,983 --> 00:38:03,695 Why don't I read that section? So he's got a long statement, 757 00:38:03,695 --> 00:38:06,882 Jack Horner, because of course people have been calling him out 758 00:38:06,882 --> 00:38:10,063 for several days now and he's got a long letter la da, da, da 759 00:38:10,063 --> 00:38:12,106 da. But he says, and I feel like 760 00:38:12,106 --> 00:38:15,800 this is a very important aspect, you know, the the files that 761 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,861 have been released show him corresponding with Jeffrey 762 00:38:18,861 --> 00:38:21,960 Epstein in 2012. And 2016. 763 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,064 And 2016. At least with someone from 764 00:38:25,064 --> 00:38:26,285 Jeffrey's estate. Yes. 765 00:38:26,285 --> 00:38:31,220 And so he says that I was aware he had been previously charged 766 00:38:31,220 --> 00:38:34,509 with soliciting a prostitute and had served a sentence, but I was 767 00:38:34,509 --> 00:38:35,920 not aware of any additional allegations. 768 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,416 Or I want to make it perfectly clear that I knew nothing more 769 00:38:39,416 --> 00:38:41,700 than that exclamation point. No amount of money in the world 770 00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:44,508 would have lured me to meet with a known sexual predator. 771 00:38:44,508 --> 00:38:47,260 Exclamation point. So Jeffrey Epstein was not 772 00:38:47,260 --> 00:38:50,175 convicted of prostitution of using finger codes here. 773 00:38:50,175 --> 00:38:52,704 He was convicted of prostitution of a minor. 774 00:38:52,704 --> 00:38:55,360 And Yep. That's in what year, Megan? 775 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,772 2000 and eight. 2000 and. 2008 when Jack was talking him to 776 00:38:59,772 --> 00:39:02,840 2012. So you're so Jack just wasn't. 777 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,516 Oh wow. But Jackson just whoopsies, 778 00:39:05,516 --> 00:39:10,060 missed the word. Which was all over the news, all 779 00:39:10,060 --> 00:39:13,760 over the news when Jeffrey Epstein was convicted because he 780 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,240 went to prison for this, right? But right. 781 00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,027 So Jack is saying he wasn't aware. 782 00:39:18,027 --> 00:39:22,175 It was just yes, he knew he was doing sex crimes, just not with. 783 00:39:22,175 --> 00:39:25,281 He just scared the headline components that said. 784 00:39:25,281 --> 00:39:28,729 With a minor. Which listen, I I have some very 785 00:39:28,729 --> 00:39:31,980 liberal feelings on the legality of prostitution, but sure, 786 00:39:31,980 --> 00:39:34,162 Jeffrey Epstein's a really fucking rich man. 787 00:39:34,162 --> 00:39:37,504 If he's going to prison for prostitution, it's not because 788 00:39:37,504 --> 00:39:40,949 he was just visiting a nice lady. 789 00:39:40,949 --> 00:39:46,472 You know, like that's and also if I am going to be talking to 790 00:39:46,472 --> 00:39:49,780 someone that when I Google them, prostitution comes up, I'm going 791 00:39:49,780 --> 00:39:54,100 to do some fucking digging and I was alive in 2008. 792 00:39:54,100 --> 00:39:57,520 I was graduating college. The Internet fucking existed. 793 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,175 You could Google this. This was not hidden information 794 00:40:01,175 --> 00:40:03,188 were hard to. Find it. 795 00:40:03,188 --> 00:40:06,902 Yes, it was very. It was very much out there. 796 00:40:06,902 --> 00:40:11,070 It was very public and right to have knowledge that he was 797 00:40:11,070 --> 00:40:13,794 soliciting a prostitute. It just like if you learned that 798 00:40:13,794 --> 00:40:16,980 that would have been in the exact, I would suspect that that 799 00:40:16,980 --> 00:40:20,728 would be in the exact same context of the fact that it is 800 00:40:20,728 --> 00:40:23,924 with a minor with with a with a girl right here. 801 00:40:23,924 --> 00:40:29,160 And what does he say about his use of the word girls in his 802 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:30,740 e-mail? Yeah, so he says. 803 00:40:30,740 --> 00:40:34,475 I just, I really did the the. I love that you included the 804 00:40:34,475 --> 00:40:37,620 exclamation points because I was like no bro, this is not the 805 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:39,760 place. Like this is not the time. 806 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,095 Those present beside the ranch manager and his wife included 807 00:40:43,095 --> 00:40:46,224 Epstein, a chef, Epstein's secretary, and four women who 808 00:40:46,224 --> 00:40:49,824 were introduced to me as college students, two of whom claimed to 809 00:40:49,824 --> 00:40:51,755 be adept in genetics. There's nothing weird, 810 00:40:51,755 --> 00:40:53,458 inappropriate or out of the ordinary. 811 00:40:53,458 --> 00:40:57,350 So he's saying that the girls that he's referencing are just 812 00:40:57,350 --> 00:40:58,380 these women. College. 813 00:40:58,380 --> 00:41:01,900 Students And later in Jack's response, he says, I now 814 00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:04,668 understand the students may have been victims of Epstein. 815 00:41:04,668 --> 00:41:06,672 So, you know, make of that what you will. 816 00:41:06,672 --> 00:41:09,762 I will say that I, you know, I, I did look through the Epstein 817 00:41:09,762 --> 00:41:11,747 files for the words fossil and dinosaur. 818 00:41:11,747 --> 00:41:15,450 And the things that primarily pop up are this series of 819 00:41:15,450 --> 00:41:17,560 letters between him and Jack Horner. 820 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,485 And also some interviewing stuff where he was interviewing a 821 00:41:22,485 --> 00:41:25,634 replacement personal assistant. And he was being told that he 822 00:41:25,634 --> 00:41:28,940 should really interview this woman because in addition to 823 00:41:28,940 --> 00:41:32,660 meeting the criteria, she also said she was interested in 824 00:41:32,660 --> 00:41:36,504 fossils, exclamation point. So like Jeffrey, his recruitment 825 00:41:36,504 --> 00:41:40,327 first scientists also extended to personal assistants I guess. 826 00:41:40,327 --> 00:41:42,626 Right. And then I found it very 827 00:41:42,626 --> 00:41:45,762 interesting in in Jack's reply about the just keep reading it 828 00:41:45,762 --> 00:41:47,792 with the order of what happened that day. 829 00:41:47,792 --> 00:41:52,478 I just found some of it to be such a like, I was just like, 830 00:41:52,478 --> 00:41:57,370 OK, that's weird, but all right. So yeah, he meets him, he tries 831 00:41:57,370 --> 00:42:01,280 to present and convince Epstein to fund his dumb chicken asaurus 832 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,824 idea. Epstein declined my request, 833 00:42:02,824 --> 00:42:06,234 stating he was not persuaded of its feasibility, blah blah blah 834 00:42:06,234 --> 00:42:08,926 blah. We had dinner and then everyone 835 00:42:08,926 --> 00:42:10,868 scattered. Nothing weird or suspicious. 836 00:42:10,868 --> 00:42:15,209 The next day I took an ATV and drove around the ranch looking 837 00:42:15,209 --> 00:42:18,520 at the geology so I would be able to explain what they would 838 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,667 be looking at, which this was 2012. 839 00:42:20,667 --> 00:42:25,089 Geologic maps did exist, but Rock D, which is a very fun 840 00:42:25,089 --> 00:42:28,188 geologic map app, did not. So you know, I guess he had to 841 00:42:28,188 --> 00:42:30,355 go look at things. Later in the day I took them out 842 00:42:30,355 --> 00:42:33,600 fossil hunting in what I determined to be some near shore 843 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,475 estuarine Cretaceous sediments where he picked up some shells. 844 00:42:36,475 --> 00:42:39,785 Other odds and ends later, Epstein LED us all to an igneous 845 00:42:39,785 --> 00:42:41,423 Cliff that had petroglyphs on it. 846 00:42:41,423 --> 00:42:44,264 And then they're gonna go look at a railroad bed. 847 00:42:44,264 --> 00:42:47,080 They doesn't just tell us who they is. 848 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,795 Seem genuinely interested in the rocks, the fossils, and science 849 00:42:49,795 --> 00:42:52,215 in general. I did not observe any behavior 850 00:42:52,215 --> 00:42:54,830 that raised concerns. Feels like every passage ends 851 00:42:54,830 --> 00:42:56,630 that way. Epstein and the students went 852 00:42:56,630 --> 00:42:59,602 back to the house and I poked around some more rocks until the 853 00:42:59,602 --> 00:43:02,427 ranch manager came to get me. That sounds like he was kicked 854 00:43:02,427 --> 00:43:06,094 off the ranch. I was driven back to 855 00:43:06,094 --> 00:43:10,040 Albuquerque. Once back in Bozeman, I sent a 856 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,160 brief e-mail thanking him and the students, the girls, for 857 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,514 allowing me to present my project and to explore the 858 00:43:16,514 --> 00:43:17,656 ranch. The ranch was beautiful. 859 00:43:17,656 --> 00:43:20,620 I told him how lucky he was to have Cretaceous sediments right 860 00:43:20,620 --> 00:43:23,990 there where he could go out and collect fossils. 861 00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:26,770 An envious situation in my opinion. 862 00:43:26,770 --> 00:43:28,940 Do you think that's what he was envious about? 863 00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:32,836 Amy was. I mean, we can read this, this 864 00:43:32,836 --> 00:43:35,082 summary e-mail, right? Read this right. 865 00:43:35,082 --> 00:43:38,012 I've given you pieces, but this is the letter that he's 866 00:43:38,012 --> 00:43:39,780 referring to. Dear Jeffrey, Many thanks for 867 00:43:39,780 --> 00:43:42,242 the invitation to your ranch. I had a great time, especially 868 00:43:42,242 --> 00:43:45,000 spending time with you and the girls and seeing your Cretaceous 869 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,109 sediments in the old railroad. I don't get me too many chances 870 00:43:48,109 --> 00:43:50,740 to spend time with non paleontologist or see things and 871 00:43:50,740 --> 00:43:54,101 places like that these days. I talked to my postdocs and Co 872 00:43:54,101 --> 00:43:57,387 Pi when I returned and got the scoop on the transgenic chicken 873 00:43:57,387 --> 00:43:59,142 situation. For as you know, I was very 874 00:43:59,142 --> 00:44:01,455 surprised to hear that such a thing existed since my Co 875 00:44:01,455 --> 00:44:03,760 researchers were saying it didn't as it turns out. 876 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,752 Oh, there although there was such a thing, there's simply no 877 00:44:06,752 --> 00:44:09,628 established protocol to create them and they are at present do 878 00:44:09,628 --> 00:44:11,828 not pass on their characteristics, so in effect 879 00:44:11,828 --> 00:44:16,015 are useless for our project. What it is that we need to do is 880 00:44:16,015 --> 00:44:19,440 to be able to target a specific region of DNA and that 881 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,045 technology is not yet available in birds but is expected in 882 00:44:22,045 --> 00:44:24,662 within a year or two. So within our time frame, we 883 00:44:24,662 --> 00:44:27,632 hope someone else will do it first so that we can use it as 884 00:44:27,632 --> 00:44:29,940 this technology. Homologous recombination of 885 00:44:29,940 --> 00:44:33,512 technology, AKA knockout technology is essential to the 886 00:44:33,512 --> 00:44:36,632 success of this project. We do not aim to generate 887 00:44:36,632 --> 00:44:39,289 chickens that express any extraneous genes, a trans gene, 888 00:44:39,289 --> 00:44:43,000 but we plan on finding the very small changes in the regulation 889 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,736 of existing genes that curb tail, hand and tooth 890 00:44:45,736 --> 00:44:47,590 development. In order to make these small 891 00:44:47,590 --> 00:44:49,454 changes in the chicken genome, homologous recombination 892 00:44:49,454 --> 00:44:51,252 technology needs to be developed. 893 00:44:51,252 --> 00:44:54,080 Anyway, this is the sort of stuff we will discuss in our 894 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,975 summit meeting. I very much appreciate your 895 00:44:55,975 --> 00:44:57,300 considering of funding this meeting. 896 00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:59,860 It is obviously the most important first step and I thank 897 00:44:59,860 --> 00:45:02,500 you for suggesting we do it. Please give all the girls my 898 00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:06,892 very best wishes and to you, whom I envy, thanks again, Jack. 899 00:45:06,892 --> 00:45:10,735 OK, so he briefly says Cretaceous sediments in the 900 00:45:10,735 --> 00:45:14,348 first paragraph, but they're not mentioned again when he says who 901 00:45:14,348 --> 00:45:18,210 am I envy? So I mean, sure, OK. 902 00:45:18,210 --> 00:45:21,940 Yeah, sure, totally. A famous dinosaur paleontologist 903 00:45:21,940 --> 00:45:24,738 will envy clams having access to. 904 00:45:24,738 --> 00:45:28,878 Clams a guy who has multiple sites that he runs in Montana 905 00:45:28,878 --> 00:45:31,975 that are literally world famous for producing some of the 906 00:45:31,975 --> 00:45:33,400 highest density of dinosaur fossils. 907 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,416 Man, who's in the? Entire multiple times. 908 00:45:35,416 --> 00:45:40,197 A man who is been, I was told, hated turtles and a lot of other 909 00:45:40,197 --> 00:45:42,268 marine things because they weren't dinosaurs, right? 910 00:45:42,268 --> 00:45:45,672 And is claiming that yes, it was those Cretaceous clams. 911 00:45:45,672 --> 00:45:50,356 OK, Nope, I'm not going to make a clam joke. 912 00:45:50,356 --> 00:45:55,429 That's definitely with him. Literally considered the state 913 00:45:55,429 --> 00:45:57,098 paleontologist of fucking Montana. 914 00:45:57,098 --> 00:46:00,670 He was really envious of those Cretaceous invertebrates. 915 00:46:00,670 --> 00:46:05,240 What else could there possibly be to be envious of with 916 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,648 Jeffrey? Oh, I mean literally, you know, 917 00:46:07,648 --> 00:46:10,740 genuinely speaking, there are many other things, and I 918 00:46:10,740 --> 00:46:15,022 wouldn't even say the pedophilia could have been the top of his 919 00:46:15,022 --> 00:46:17,190 list, but like the money or anything else. 920 00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:20,364 But regardless, the fact that his defense is that he's jealous 921 00:46:20,364 --> 00:46:23,456 that the guy lives on a ranch with clams is dumb. 922 00:46:23,456 --> 00:46:27,704 It's weird when you think about what Jack had access to and 923 00:46:27,704 --> 00:46:29,280 where Jack grew up. Which? 924 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,700 Is. Western Montana and right, and 925 00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:34,910 the fossils that Jack has focused on in his career. 926 00:46:34,910 --> 00:46:38,168 And the fact is that he could have gone anywhere to work any 927 00:46:38,168 --> 00:46:40,956 site at this point. I mean, he is a big name. 928 00:46:40,956 --> 00:46:44,864 And so again, it's just like, OK, so you literally have all of 929 00:46:44,864 --> 00:46:46,800 Montana paleontology, but you're going to turn around. 930 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,600 And I know for a fact that we have, you know, like bear paw 931 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,168 formation stuff and Western Interior Seaway stuff in 932 00:46:54,168 --> 00:46:56,760 Montana. And as far as I know, like those 933 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,720 weren't worked as heavily as the Hell Creek, the Judith River, 934 00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:02,500 the two medicine formation, you know, like the the ones that 935 00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:06,538 were on his radar and were heavily worked are the dinosaur 936 00:47:06,538 --> 00:47:09,375 bearing formations. So I mean, yeah, he did do some 937 00:47:09,375 --> 00:47:10,827 stuff with marine reptiles as well. 938 00:47:10,827 --> 00:47:13,798 And he's a Dino guy. That's that's what he's been. 939 00:47:13,798 --> 00:47:15,680 He can't get Jeffrey Epstein to fund him. 940 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,466 Nope. But he can get Nathan Myhrvold 941 00:47:17,466 --> 00:47:19,812 to fund him, who has funded his Chichenosaurus project. 942 00:47:19,812 --> 00:47:21,850 Nothing has necessarily come of it. 943 00:47:21,850 --> 00:47:24,887 But, you know, like being in the Epstein files is not necessarily 944 00:47:24,887 --> 00:47:27,816 bad. He, you know, there's no obvious 945 00:47:27,816 --> 00:47:31,429 and of like pedophilia. Like I think my opinion is that 946 00:47:31,429 --> 00:47:34,260 these letters give me the creeps, but that's not 947 00:47:34,260 --> 00:47:38,092 necessarily a crime, right? I'm also creeped out by fossils 948 00:47:38,092 --> 00:47:40,332 sometimes. So like that's not necessarily a 949 00:47:40,332 --> 00:47:43,040 crime. So SVP, the Society of 950 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,180 Vertebrate Paleontology has of course been receiving quite a 951 00:47:47,180 --> 00:47:51,062 lot of messages about Epstein files, plus Jack Horner and the 952 00:47:51,062 --> 00:47:54,825 fact that Jack Horner is still a member of the Society of 953 00:47:54,825 --> 00:47:57,812 Vertebrate Paleontology, has gone to many conferences. 954 00:47:57,812 --> 00:48:03,454 Was a awarded a prize in 2013. Yeah, the Romer Simpson Prize. 955 00:48:03,454 --> 00:48:04,440 Simpson. Yep. 956 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,540 And there's been a lot of requests to maybe reconsider 957 00:48:07,540 --> 00:48:12,312 giving him that, to at least ban him from future meetings. 958 00:48:12,312 --> 00:48:15,988 And SVP's given us a response which is. 959 00:48:15,988 --> 00:48:17,740 Yeah, they sure have. Yeah. 960 00:48:17,740 --> 00:48:21,648 Classic SVP firing me to be here right now. 961 00:48:21,648 --> 00:48:26,125 Is that response? Yep, and by response we mean 962 00:48:26,125 --> 00:48:28,829 fucking non response as per usual. 963 00:48:28,829 --> 00:48:32,955 So with these societies you have to understand that they are 964 00:48:32,955 --> 00:48:35,500 they're clubs. They are legally just clubs. 965 00:48:35,500 --> 00:48:39,200 They are not supported by private or public institutions. 966 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,474 They are groups of people. As we saw with Mary Anning, they 967 00:48:43,474 --> 00:48:45,720 are historically allowed to exclude however the fuck they 968 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:46,848 want to exclude? Sure. 969 00:48:46,848 --> 00:48:50,700 And in their charters. All of these clubs have rules 970 00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:54,104 and those rules say things like you can't sexually harass 971 00:48:54,104 --> 00:48:57,060 people, you can't make people super uncomfortable or endanger 972 00:48:57,060 --> 00:48:59,395 them in the field. You can't do this, you can't do 973 00:48:59,395 --> 00:49:01,958 that. And then they have these forms 974 00:49:01,958 --> 00:49:05,832 to report things for when because you know, you can't know 975 00:49:05,832 --> 00:49:08,536 every paleontologist, you can't know everything about everybody. 976 00:49:08,536 --> 00:49:12,641 So they have these forms for you to fill out when there is a 977 00:49:12,641 --> 00:49:17,030 problem so that they can go and look into it and then 978 00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:20,678 subsequently potentially remove that person from the society and 979 00:49:20,678 --> 00:49:24,000 make sure that especially if they're a safety hazard that 980 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,200 they can't come to future conferences because. 981 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,652 They're so good at that with. SVP, Yeah, yeah. 982 00:49:29,652 --> 00:49:33,824 So SVP statement, do you have it in front of you? 983 00:49:33,824 --> 00:49:39,840 Do you want to read? Some I got it to the members of 984 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,982 SVP. I am currently not and I've 985 00:49:41,982 --> 00:49:44,388 never been more proud to not have an active membership. 986 00:49:44,388 --> 00:49:47,144 We write to acknowledge the recent media coverage and the 987 00:49:47,144 --> 00:49:49,676 public release of documents related to the Epstein 988 00:49:49,676 --> 00:49:52,285 investigations, which has prompted questions with and 989 00:49:52,285 --> 00:49:55,850 concerns within our own society. We are aware that names of some 990 00:49:55,850 --> 00:49:57,730 SVP members have appeared in these materials. 991 00:49:57,730 --> 00:50:01,415 At this time, we must emphasize that the appearance of a name or 992 00:50:01,415 --> 00:50:04,766 even an e-mail in release document does not in itself 993 00:50:04,766 --> 00:50:07,280 establish wrongdoing. Additionally, many references 994 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,928 remain unverified and or lack context. 995 00:50:09,928 --> 00:50:12,115 We are closely monitoring developments. 996 00:50:12,115 --> 00:50:16,224 Any responses by SVP will be thoughtful, fair, and consistent 997 00:50:16,224 --> 00:50:18,636 with our bylines and ethics policies. 998 00:50:18,636 --> 00:50:22,116 OK, I thought I was going to be able to do that without it and 999 00:50:22,116 --> 00:50:24,520 I'm not OK. We are committed to the 1000 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:25,989 principles of integrity due process. 1001 00:50:25,989 --> 00:50:27,435 Like I can't say this without laughing. 1002 00:50:27,435 --> 00:50:30,445 Due process and respect for all individuals because I've 1003 00:50:30,445 --> 00:50:33,067 experienced how they're not on other separate things. 1004 00:50:33,067 --> 00:50:36,140 As a view other such credible information emerge that warrants 1005 00:50:36,140 --> 00:50:39,070 action under our existing policies, we will address it 1006 00:50:39,070 --> 00:50:41,735 promptly and appropriately. Until then, we asked my members 1007 00:50:41,735 --> 00:50:44,840 rely on verified sources and refrain from speculating and 1008 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,700 demanding action without due process. 1009 00:50:46,700 --> 00:50:49,800 Please note that the Ethics Committee does not disclose 1010 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,440 information regarding the ethics investigations, including 1011 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,760 findings or or sanctions. We appreciate your 1012 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,275 professionalism and your trust in the society's leadership as 1013 00:50:59,275 --> 00:51:03,200 the situation unfolds. And this is my trust in the 1014 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,320 SVP's leadership. Right, she's flipping off the 1015 00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,012 camera. Double bird, double bird. 1016 00:51:08,012 --> 00:51:11,740 I hear you guys really like bird evolution. 1017 00:51:11,740 --> 00:51:14,480 So. Here's a couple more. 1018 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:19,067 Yeah, so that response is really bland and lackluster. 1019 00:51:19,067 --> 00:51:24,104 And if the only problem with Jack Horner was, OK, he had a 1020 00:51:24,104 --> 00:51:27,342 weird relationship with his student, which led to him being 1021 00:51:27,342 --> 00:51:30,894 forced out of his job, which, by the way, it doesn't fucking 1022 00:51:30,894 --> 00:51:33,035 happen. So something tells me that it's 1023 00:51:33,035 --> 00:51:34,760 really hard to get somebody fired. 1024 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,402 Amy and I both know this. My intention in all of these 1025 00:51:37,402 --> 00:51:40,480 cases have been to live my goddamn life and do my job 1026 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,962 without harassment. It's not my choice that other 1027 00:51:42,962 --> 00:51:47,336 people have decided to take away my ADA recommendations and 1028 00:51:47,336 --> 00:51:48,950 accommodations. That's their choice. 1029 00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:51,136 So. If it was just OK, he had a 1030 00:51:51,136 --> 00:51:54,320 weird relationship with his student and he's in the Epstein 1031 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,820 files, he went to Jeffrey Epstein's ranch and did some 1032 00:51:57,820 --> 00:52:00,750 paleontology stuff there. If that was the full end of it, 1033 00:52:00,750 --> 00:52:04,521 this would almost make sense. But I know for a fucking fact, 1034 00:52:04,521 --> 00:52:09,036 and SVP knows, that it is not because our friend Win 1035 00:52:09,036 --> 00:52:13,024 McLaughlin has complained multiple times to SVP about Jack 1036 00:52:13,024 --> 00:52:16,000 Horner groping her at conferences twice. 1037 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,134 At the SVP conference more than once. 1038 00:52:20,134 --> 00:52:23,248 And did she go through? And more than her, she watched 1039 00:52:23,248 --> 00:52:25,855 him grope other people. Yes, yes, yes. 1040 00:52:25,855 --> 00:52:28,464 And what did she do? She obviously didn't report it 1041 00:52:28,464 --> 00:52:31,160 because they just said that we are committed to the principles 1042 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,368 of integrity, due process and respect for all individuals. 1043 00:52:33,368 --> 00:52:35,940 Yeah, she did report it, though Amy isn't that sure. 1044 00:52:35,940 --> 00:52:39,504 Well then, but, but they, I have to trust the society's 1045 00:52:39,504 --> 00:52:42,448 leadership. Megan I I mean, obviously, I 1046 00:52:42,448 --> 00:52:45,882 mean, well, isn't it? Shocking how all these people in 1047 00:52:45,882 --> 00:52:47,934 power have no fucking ability to read. 1048 00:52:47,934 --> 00:52:50,785 Like I imagine that Jack Horner's next statement is going 1049 00:52:50,785 --> 00:52:53,256 to be how his dyslexia made it impossible to read. 1050 00:52:53,256 --> 00:52:54,681 He couldn't. Handle the emails. 1051 00:52:54,681 --> 00:52:57,480 He didn't know. He didn't know that he was 1052 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,872 emailing Jeff S Dean. I'm sorry if you have dyslexia 1053 00:53:01,872 --> 00:53:05,118 that is a valid, but it's not a good reason for not looking up 1054 00:53:05,118 --> 00:53:06,690 whether someone is a pedophile or not. 1055 00:53:06,690 --> 00:53:09,426 Yeah, you can do fucking, you can make your computer read this 1056 00:53:09,426 --> 00:53:11,948 shit these days and probably even then too, right. 1057 00:53:11,948 --> 00:53:16,365 So I mean, when I know for a fact went through the proper, 1058 00:53:16,365 --> 00:53:20,638 and I mean I've, I've read from what she has shared on Blue Sky 1059 00:53:20,638 --> 00:53:23,792 and others that in some cases she didn't even get a response 1060 00:53:23,792 --> 00:53:25,968 from the society vertebrae paleontology, no 1061 00:53:25,968 --> 00:53:28,900 acknowledgement, let alone anything happening, just no 1062 00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:31,014 acknowledgement that they even received her complaint. 1063 00:53:31,014 --> 00:53:33,380 And I know other people who've had that exact same situation. 1064 00:53:33,380 --> 00:53:35,360 I mean, I've I. Know and then guess what? 1065 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:36,716 Yeah, guess what? They're all women. 1066 00:53:36,716 --> 00:53:40,184 All of the people who I have heard first hand, first fucking 1067 00:53:40,184 --> 00:53:43,040 hand about issues and reports to SVPI know. 1068 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,355 I mentioned in one of them because I was again, tangential 1069 00:53:46,355 --> 00:53:49,720 to another creep in Paleo and it's like, yeah, Nope. 1070 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:52,300 Oh, guess what? That person is good friends with 1071 00:53:52,300 --> 00:53:54,410 the people in the leadership of SVP. 1072 00:53:54,410 --> 00:53:56,960 And guess what? Nothing ever came of that one 1073 00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,616 either. Yeah, I distinctly remember 1074 00:53:59,616 --> 00:54:04,965 filing on behalf of and who Robert Reisz's had like fucking 1075 00:54:04,965 --> 00:54:08,501 terrorized for years. They had come out to the public. 1076 00:54:08,501 --> 00:54:11,920 They had like a whole big, like, news article about it. 1077 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,795 Robert Reisz's was not denying any of it at all. 1078 00:54:14,795 --> 00:54:17,538 But he was still not being removed from his University of 1079 00:54:17,538 --> 00:54:19,101 Toronto position. He'd been racist. 1080 00:54:19,101 --> 00:54:22,424 He'd been sexist. He'd put horrible positions just 1081 00:54:22,424 --> 00:54:25,664 so scary. And so I decided to go ahead and 1082 00:54:25,664 --> 00:54:28,268 just submit that news report as the fucking complaint. 1083 00:54:28,268 --> 00:54:31,712 And I never got an official response, but the president at 1084 00:54:31,712 --> 00:54:35,782 the time did DM me on Twitter to tell me that, you know, they 1085 00:54:35,782 --> 00:54:38,406 were looking into it and they were trying to see what was 1086 00:54:38,406 --> 00:54:40,305 legal. And, you know, they just had to 1087 00:54:40,305 --> 00:54:43,000 be really careful because what if the guy retaliated and 1088 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,548 counter sued them and and. What if we all leave your shitty 1089 00:54:46,548 --> 00:54:48,992 fucking society because you don't give a shit about 1090 00:54:48,992 --> 00:54:50,460 protecting your more vulnerable members? 1091 00:54:50,460 --> 00:54:51,792 Yeah. What about that? 1092 00:54:51,792 --> 00:54:54,660 You can have a fun little club with all the people you're 1093 00:54:54,660 --> 00:54:57,058 worried about retaliating. You all have a nice little tea 1094 00:54:57,058 --> 00:54:58,316 party together. That sounds fun. 1095 00:54:58,316 --> 00:55:00,800 Yeah, I don't think the guy was ever permanently banned. 1096 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,256 I'm not even sure he was banned from that meeting. 1097 00:55:03,256 --> 00:55:07,304 No, oh, I think he was, but only because like literally I think 1098 00:55:07,304 --> 00:55:09,940 and like made a public stink again. 1099 00:55:09,940 --> 00:55:13,180 And it only he only got banned from that meeting and it was 1100 00:55:13,180 --> 00:55:16,386 because they were like, we're afraid to go to this meeting if 1101 00:55:16,386 --> 00:55:20,290 you're not going to protect me. And I mean, I have first hand 1102 00:55:20,290 --> 00:55:22,949 experience with SVP and this this garbage too. 1103 00:55:22,949 --> 00:55:26,358 It was it's different. But yeah, I mean, it's it's just 1104 00:55:26,358 --> 00:55:31,240 like I was moderating a session at the 2024 meeting in 1105 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,585 Minneapolis. So I was introducing speakers. 1106 00:55:33,585 --> 00:55:38,026 I was on stage next to this very problematic person who had had a 1107 00:55:38,026 --> 00:55:40,315 lot of complaints lodged against him. 1108 00:55:40,315 --> 00:55:45,035 And he gave one of the scariest, most threatening talks I've ever 1109 00:55:45,035 --> 00:55:48,258 been that, I mean, it was really, really scary. 1110 00:55:48,258 --> 00:55:49,807 This is a paleontology conference. 1111 00:55:49,807 --> 00:55:51,886 The talk This is a. Paleontology, right? 1112 00:55:51,886 --> 00:55:56,000 There's no reason for this. I I had just given a talk about 1113 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,424 how we take care of the Dinosaur Ridge track site. 1114 00:55:58,424 --> 00:56:02,116 And then this guy gets up and start talking about how 1115 00:56:02,116 --> 00:56:05,445 oligarchs and all of these mobsters are evil. 1116 00:56:05,445 --> 00:56:08,120 And he started calling out people in the audience and 1117 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,216 threatening people in the audience and telling everyone 1118 00:56:10,216 --> 00:56:13,782 that he was punched in and out of Afghanistan to be here and he 1119 00:56:13,782 --> 00:56:17,161 had a dead girl in his arms. Just a few hours before he was 1120 00:56:17,161 --> 00:56:20,860 there that day me and my Co moderator were writing on a note 1121 00:56:20,860 --> 00:56:24,040 going we are so scared. We literally were writing to 1122 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,338 each other about how terrified we were. 1123 00:56:26,338 --> 00:56:29,792 I kept envisioning my husband receiving my blood soaked 1124 00:56:29,792 --> 00:56:33,108 clothing because I thought this guy was going to turn around and 1125 00:56:33,108 --> 00:56:35,244 blow my brains out. I literally this is the time. 1126 00:56:35,244 --> 00:56:38,560 This is the only time I thought I this is the closest I've ever 1127 00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,682 felt of I'm going to die. And we later found about an hour 1128 00:56:41,682 --> 00:56:44,146 later that he was armed and he had been armed and he had 1129 00:56:44,146 --> 00:56:45,960 brought a bunch of assault rifles to that meeting. 1130 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,560 And his roommates that were staying with him were fucking 1131 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,575 terrified. Has SVP followed up with me 1132 00:56:50,575 --> 00:56:52,760 about that once? No, no, I don't. 1133 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,760 Do we even? Know where this this human being 1134 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:56,871 is. I'm still afraid. 1135 00:56:56,871 --> 00:56:59,134 What if he just shows up at my work? 1136 00:56:59,134 --> 00:57:01,380 Like they have never followed up? 1137 00:57:01,380 --> 00:57:05,445 They have never. I feel like I was set up to 1138 00:57:05,445 --> 00:57:06,550 moderate. Did they ban? 1139 00:57:06,550 --> 00:57:08,869 Him. Did they ban him from that 1140 00:57:08,869 --> 00:57:09,435 meeting? Yes. 1141 00:57:09,435 --> 00:57:12,452 How long did it take though? They didn't want to call the 1142 00:57:12,452 --> 00:57:14,710 cops. It took me and my Co moderator 1143 00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:17,374 bursting into tears and begging them to call the cops. 1144 00:57:17,374 --> 00:57:19,260 Yeah. And they finally called the cops 1145 00:57:19,260 --> 00:57:22,180 and he was finally escorted out and he was supposedly banned 1146 00:57:22,180 --> 00:57:24,050 from the meeting. And he immediately went on 1147 00:57:24,050 --> 00:57:26,174 Facebook and started making death threats to some of the 1148 00:57:26,174 --> 00:57:27,100 leadership in SVP. Yeah. 1149 00:57:27,100 --> 00:57:29,216 And then his roommates came forward and said we're 1150 00:57:29,216 --> 00:57:31,122 terrified. He brought a ton of guns. 1151 00:57:31,122 --> 00:57:34,355 And and this is not unknown individual is they didn't they 1152 00:57:34,355 --> 00:57:37,027 give him a chance to revise his abstracts? 1153 00:57:37,027 --> 00:57:41,048 Yes, which is not how I heard it was supposed to be. 1154 00:57:41,048 --> 00:57:44,030 He had supposedly given a pretty unhinged talk at the, I think, 1155 00:57:44,030 --> 00:57:46,682 Toronto meeting. Before this, people knew he was 1156 00:57:46,682 --> 00:57:49,574 essentially not well and in not a good headspace. 1157 00:57:49,574 --> 00:57:51,840 After this talk, I had a prominent dinosaur 1158 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,989 paleontologist who I cannot stand to be like, oh, Amy, I had 1159 00:57:54,989 --> 00:57:58,058 to leave and I was like, well, fuck you, fucking cool. 1160 00:57:58,058 --> 00:58:00,882 I couldn't leave. And he was like, he was like, 1161 00:58:00,882 --> 00:58:03,942 oh, well, I knew he was crazy. This summer I had to kick him 1162 00:58:03,942 --> 00:58:05,948 out of my field program because he was scaring people. 1163 00:58:05,948 --> 00:58:07,575 And I was like, did you report that? 1164 00:58:07,575 --> 00:58:09,840 He said, oh, no, well, it wasn't my place. 1165 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:11,775 And I said then whose place was it? 1166 00:58:11,775 --> 00:58:14,947 And I said, well, did you know he was giving this talk and 1167 00:58:14,947 --> 00:58:17,240 doing this abstract? Well, I thought that they 1168 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,400 wouldn't accept it. Did you say that? 1169 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,340 Well, no, I just assumed that they wouldn't have done that. 1170 00:58:22,340 --> 00:58:25,355 They wouldn't have accepted it. So then when you saw it was 1171 00:58:25,355 --> 00:58:28,840 accepted, did you say anything? Well, no, it isn't my place. 1172 00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,300 Fuck you. Yeah. 1173 00:58:30,300 --> 00:58:33,870 Fucking. I'm still like, I've just like, 1174 00:58:33,870 --> 00:58:35,765 I'm terrified. I mean, I've never I've. 1175 00:58:35,765 --> 00:58:37,715 I've spent a lot of therapy sessions on this. 1176 00:58:37,715 --> 00:58:40,103 Let me tell you that. Yeah, a lot of therapy on that. 1177 00:58:40,103 --> 00:58:42,490 I thought I was going to die. I thought he was gonna just 1178 00:58:42,490 --> 00:58:44,202 shoot me. And I'm not saying that that's 1179 00:58:44,202 --> 00:58:47,076 an easy situation to deal with, but I do feel like the number 1180 00:58:47,076 --> 00:58:48,680 one thing would be calling the cops. 1181 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,840 Actually, you know, the number one thing would be you know that 1182 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,270 this individual has a history. If you're not familiar with how 1183 00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:58,303 these conferences work, the way that they work is that if you 1184 00:58:58,303 --> 00:59:01,702 want to present, you have to in months ahead of time, submit an 1185 00:59:01,702 --> 00:59:04,080 abstract of which you want to talk about. 1186 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,949 And SVP sends that out to peer reviewers and they are 1187 00:59:07,949 --> 00:59:10,188 technically considered peer reviewed abstracts where the 1188 00:59:10,188 --> 00:59:13,664 peer reviewers say, Oh no, that's crazy bonkers or oh, 1189 00:59:13,664 --> 00:59:16,424 that's good. And they told SVP, you know, 1190 00:59:16,424 --> 00:59:20,115 something to the equivalence of like basically the guy got the 1191 00:59:20,115 --> 00:59:23,460 usually you just get rejected. This guy got the awkward. 1192 00:59:23,460 --> 00:59:27,720 Rejected because he was using specific names of like straight 1193 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:32,050 up like criminals and oligarchs. And so you're and so they just 1194 00:59:32,050 --> 00:59:35,050 said take the names out. So when he was giving his 1195 00:59:35,050 --> 00:59:37,976 presentation, one of these SVP leadership members stopped his 1196 00:59:37,976 --> 00:59:41,610 talk and said you agreed to not use any of their names. 1197 00:59:41,610 --> 00:59:43,820 That's all he did. He didn't stop the session. 1198 00:59:43,820 --> 00:59:46,662 He didn't say you're done. He just said you need to stop 1199 00:59:46,662 --> 00:59:48,229 saying names and he let the guy continue. 1200 00:59:48,229 --> 00:59:50,710 So it's not like they didn't have warning. 1201 00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:55,420 The guy had been there before. The guy's abstract was crazy. 1202 00:59:55,420 --> 00:59:58,920 It's been confirmed that well, OK, actually I shouldn't say 1203 00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,702 that. It is very much assumed and 1204 01:00:01,702 --> 01:00:04,920 known highly that he was faking his credentials. 1205 01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,188 Yes, he was making up like making up his affiliation. 1206 01:00:08,188 --> 01:00:11,312 And when we asked the person who did this session, who 1207 01:00:11,312 --> 01:00:15,023 interrupted, who like paused it, he laughed and said no, we don't 1208 01:00:15,023 --> 01:00:17,448 check affiliations. Do we want to say who this guy 1209 01:00:17,448 --> 01:00:18,805 who said that he was affiliated with? 1210 01:00:18,805 --> 01:00:20,860 He said he was a part of Department of Homeland Security. 1211 01:00:20,860 --> 01:00:24,066 Yeah, so he said that he was part of Department of Homeland 1212 01:00:24,066 --> 01:00:26,880 Security and then went on a rampage claiming that 1213 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,980 paleontologists were, like, poaching things and funding, 1214 01:00:29,980 --> 01:00:32,940 like, horrible stuff and. Working with oligarchs to get 1215 01:00:32,940 --> 01:00:34,248 fossils. War crimes, war crimes. 1216 01:00:34,248 --> 01:00:38,390 He was accusing all of us in that room of of of being war 1217 01:00:38,390 --> 01:00:41,679 criminals. And it turns out that maybe his 1218 01:00:41,679 --> 01:00:43,995 affiliation was not correct and SVP. 1219 01:00:43,995 --> 01:00:47,980 Claimed to be a part of like never checked like no SVP did 1220 01:00:47,980 --> 01:00:50,072 not check. I know that someone else 1221 01:00:50,072 --> 01:00:51,589 reported him for or impersonating. 1222 01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:57,144 I don't know, you can't really fake a Homeland Security e-mail 1223 01:00:57,144 --> 01:01:00,305 address, right? So did they look at his like 1224 01:01:00,305 --> 01:01:02,456 Yahoo? Submission didn't address they 1225 01:01:02,456 --> 01:01:07,560 like oh so, so going back to the statement that SVP made where 1226 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,464 they are talking about their Ethics Committee. 1227 01:01:09,464 --> 01:01:12,980 And then if you go to blue sky, people who are on the Ethics 1228 01:01:12,980 --> 01:01:15,760 Committee and who are on the diversity committee are openly 1229 01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,328 saying that this letter was not run by them. 1230 01:01:18,328 --> 01:01:21,444 And then my friend who's a part of the, our friend who's a part 1231 01:01:21,444 --> 01:01:23,804 of the communications committee reached out to me and said they 1232 01:01:23,804 --> 01:01:26,094 did not include this with the communications committee either. 1233 01:01:26,094 --> 01:01:30,494 So that means that they didn't check with any of these supposed 1234 01:01:30,494 --> 01:01:32,805 functioning committees, which confirms to me what I've 1235 01:01:32,805 --> 01:01:35,235 suspected for a long time, that they're all performative. 1236 01:01:35,235 --> 01:01:38,850 The society is not actually interested in opening things up 1237 01:01:38,850 --> 01:01:42,160 and making things more accessible and like giving these 1238 01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,280 different roles. They're going to keep their 1239 01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:46,494 power within these few elite leadership positions, and 1240 01:01:46,494 --> 01:01:49,068 they're going to just let these committees go for. 1241 01:01:49,068 --> 01:01:52,450 Yeah, you kids stay busy is what it feels like. 1242 01:01:52,450 --> 01:01:55,520 But there's obviously no actual function to these committees. 1243 01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,576 So if you go and say I'm going to make a. 1244 01:01:58,576 --> 01:02:01,898 Difference too. It's often super young compared 1245 01:02:01,898 --> 01:02:05,639 to the. Early career because they tell 1246 01:02:05,639 --> 01:02:10,022 you they tell you that if you want to get higher in SVP 1247 01:02:10,022 --> 01:02:13,381 leadership that you should be a part of a committee and work for 1248 01:02:13,381 --> 01:02:16,822 free to do a bunch of unpaid labor that we don't care about. 1249 01:02:16,822 --> 01:02:20,712 I mean, it's just, yeah, it's it's taking advantage of the 1250 01:02:20,712 --> 01:02:24,888 rosy glasses that you. It's just, I've never been more 1251 01:02:24,888 --> 01:02:29,892 like I was super hurt by what happened to me last November or 1252 01:02:29,892 --> 01:02:32,723 October. I still have hoped, I guess in 1253 01:02:32,723 --> 01:02:36,672 some ways that SVP would do the right thing or that I might hear 1254 01:02:36,672 --> 01:02:39,295 from someone someday. And then to have this come out 1255 01:02:39,295 --> 01:02:42,506 that they're going to go and say, OK, like this isn't just 1256 01:02:42,506 --> 01:02:46,072 like, oh, hey, Jack's name is in this here and there. 1257 01:02:46,072 --> 01:02:50,050 He went to this fucking place. I don't give a shit. 1258 01:02:50,050 --> 01:02:53,489 If anything else happened, he is admitting that he worked with 1259 01:02:53,489 --> 01:02:59,488 someone, one who we knew at this point in 2012 was a fucking sex 1260 01:02:59,488 --> 01:03:03,144 criminal against minors. Like it shouldn't the 1261 01:03:03,144 --> 01:03:05,680 association, Like why are we not? 1262 01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:09,412 I don't understand. I'm not saying Jack did anything 1263 01:03:09,412 --> 01:03:11,536 inappropriate while he was in New Mexico. 1264 01:03:11,536 --> 01:03:13,341 I don't know. I wasn't there. 1265 01:03:13,341 --> 01:03:16,612 Isn't he's associated appropriate stuff at SVP and 1266 01:03:16,612 --> 01:03:19,734 that SVP has been warned about it, Yes. 1267 01:03:19,734 --> 01:03:22,440 We know that for a fact because guess what? 1268 01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,500 It turns out even though we're ladies, we still have vocal 1269 01:03:25,500 --> 01:03:28,260 cords and apparently we can sometimes still use them. 1270 01:03:28,260 --> 01:03:32,002 And it's not as easy to silence us as the Mary Anning Day, 1271 01:03:32,002 --> 01:03:34,032 thanks to the advent of many social media. 1272 01:03:34,032 --> 01:03:37,779 And I just want to say that I knew and wasn't surprised to 1273 01:03:37,779 --> 01:03:41,279 hear this at all because when I got hired, well, when I had my 1274 01:03:41,279 --> 01:03:44,525 interview, they flew me to Bozeman in September of 2017. 1275 01:03:44,525 --> 01:03:49,155 I had this marathon day of interviews and my last interview 1276 01:03:49,155 --> 01:03:53,700 of the Today was with the executive director of Museum of 1277 01:03:53,700 --> 01:03:56,148 the Rockies at that time. She's now retired. 1278 01:03:56,148 --> 01:03:58,600 And she and I, it was a one-on-one interview. 1279 01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,561 I, she, she's the one who brought up Jack because it was a 1280 01:04:02,561 --> 01:04:05,389 bit of the elephant in the room about like, you know, Jack's not 1281 01:04:05,389 --> 01:04:07,022 here. And then she looked at me and 1282 01:04:07,022 --> 01:04:09,696 she said, I never thought I'd have to make a policy that no 1283 01:04:09,696 --> 01:04:12,362 one under the age of 18 can go into the field. 1284 01:04:12,362 --> 01:04:16,215 And I wasn't even hired yet. This was during my interview. 1285 01:04:16,215 --> 01:04:19,580 I still don't entirely know why she said this to me. 1286 01:04:19,580 --> 01:04:22,797 I'm sure she would deny it. I have no evidence it was just 1287 01:04:22,797 --> 01:04:25,787 me and her, but she told me that when I interviewed. 1288 01:04:25,787 --> 01:04:29,506 And then, yeah, as I continued to work there, more and more 1289 01:04:29,506 --> 01:04:33,278 creepy things just piled up between essentially soft porn in 1290 01:04:33,278 --> 01:04:37,928 his office that I cleaned out and pictures of just some really 1291 01:04:37,928 --> 01:04:40,780 disturbing pictures with him. And then you dig into the 1292 01:04:40,780 --> 01:04:43,906 science part and it's like, OK, so whatever you want to separate 1293 01:04:43,906 --> 01:04:45,852 the scientists from the science. Fine. 1294 01:04:45,852 --> 01:04:47,332 Well, then let's talk about his science. 1295 01:04:47,332 --> 01:04:50,680 It's a bunch of bullshit, too. Like he's just not very, very 1296 01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:53,680 well respected. Everyone calls him Doctor 1297 01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:55,165 Horner. He does have an honorary 1298 01:04:55,165 --> 01:04:58,030 doctorate and I'm not trying to say that you'd need to have 1299 01:04:58,030 --> 01:05:00,530 advanced degrees. However, he did not even get a 1300 01:05:00,530 --> 01:05:01,303 bachelors degree. Okay. 1301 01:05:01,303 --> 01:05:03,147 He claims it's because of his dyslexia. 1302 01:05:03,147 --> 01:05:05,960 That's fair. Probably before a lot of 1303 01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,520 accommodations. However when people just go, oh, 1304 01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,828 he's a doctor, they assume a level of education that he then 1305 01:05:12,828 --> 01:05:16,352 doesn't actually have. And if you start to look at a 1306 01:05:16,352 --> 01:05:19,703 lot of his hypothesis and this stuff, he likes to throw a lot 1307 01:05:19,703 --> 01:05:22,842 of big sexy ideas out there and then really doesn't have a ton 1308 01:05:22,842 --> 01:05:26,020 of evidence to back him up. He did not discover Myosora. 1309 01:05:26,020 --> 01:05:30,062 That was discovered by Marian Branvolt, a woman who owned that 1310 01:05:30,062 --> 01:05:33,235 land out in Bynum Shoto area of Montana. 1311 01:05:33,235 --> 01:05:37,315 She knew when she found these eggs and baby bones what she 1312 01:05:37,315 --> 01:05:39,502 had. I've read that it was actually 1313 01:05:39,502 --> 01:05:42,424 her that said, hey, they must have been cared for. 1314 01:05:42,424 --> 01:05:45,729 You know, again, this is just this family's word against Jax. 1315 01:05:45,729 --> 01:05:49,372 But he, he is written in books. It's the best discovery I've 1316 01:05:49,372 --> 01:05:51,980 ever made. He didn't fucking discover it. 1317 01:05:51,980 --> 01:05:54,508 Like you named them. You named Myasora. 1318 01:05:54,508 --> 01:05:58,192 But I'm so tired of people saying that he discovered 1319 01:05:58,192 --> 01:06:00,096 Myasora. He didn't discover those 1320 01:06:00,096 --> 01:06:00,880 fossils. Did he? 1321 01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:02,655 Then go excavate more of them? Yes. 1322 01:06:02,655 --> 01:06:06,530 But if it hadn't been for Marion Brandvold's discovery, none of 1323 01:06:06,530 --> 01:06:08,775 this would have ever fucking happened. 1324 01:06:08,775 --> 01:06:11,560 And it it just, there's so many layers to this. 1325 01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:13,060 The Dino chicken thing is ridiculous. 1326 01:06:13,060 --> 01:06:15,682 Everyone has heard of his obligate scavenger hypothesis, 1327 01:06:15,682 --> 01:06:20,002 which is also just like, not backed by a lot of evidence. 1328 01:06:20,002 --> 01:06:22,509 Oh my gosh. He's also this huge proponent 1329 01:06:22,509 --> 01:06:25,230 of, you know, none of these are different species. 1330 01:06:25,230 --> 01:06:27,824 They're just babies or or really old ones. 1331 01:06:27,824 --> 01:06:33,910 So I keep begging Amy to let me do a Do Dinosaur Babies Exist 1332 01:06:33,910 --> 01:06:38,675 podcast episode. For Jack would say yes, so he 1333 01:06:38,675 --> 01:06:41,392 has. He believes that Torosaurus is 1334 01:06:41,392 --> 01:06:44,685 actually the largest growth stage of Triceratops, which is 1335 01:06:44,685 --> 01:06:47,388 pretty much bullshit. We have found juvenile 1336 01:06:47,388 --> 01:06:50,800 Torosaurus fossils. He used to claim that Jane and 1337 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,068 Chomper, which they were called juvenile T Rex specimens are 1338 01:06:54,068 --> 01:06:56,808 actually Nanotyrannus, which has been news this year. 1339 01:06:56,808 --> 01:07:01,934 He also said that Stiggy, Moloch and Draco Rex are just juvenile 1340 01:07:01,934 --> 01:07:05,845 forms of Pachycephalosaurus. And that is also been, you know, 1341 01:07:05,845 --> 01:07:08,995 not supported with more recent discoveries and all of this. 1342 01:07:08,995 --> 01:07:13,820 I mean, and then it's just like the science isn't even that 1343 01:07:13,820 --> 01:07:16,592 good. And then the personal stuff is, 1344 01:07:16,592 --> 01:07:20,280 Oh my God, he went on this thing back in like 2018. 1345 01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,326 It was so funny. He's putting it all over social 1346 01:07:22,326 --> 01:07:24,336 media. And he was like, the best way to 1347 01:07:24,336 --> 01:07:28,020 look at a dinosaur egg for an embryo is to smash it with a 1348 01:07:28,020 --> 01:07:30,335 hammer. And like everyone, I mean, these 1349 01:07:30,335 --> 01:07:34,059 are some big names who come out and are like, dear God, no, like 1350 01:07:34,059 --> 01:07:37,915 CT scan it, X-ray it. Like, please, like do anything 1351 01:07:37,915 --> 01:07:41,232 but destroy it. And him being like, you can glue 1352 01:07:41,232 --> 01:07:44,238 it back together. And it's just like, bro, like, 1353 01:07:44,238 --> 01:07:48,200 it's not the 1970s anymore. We have technology that would 1354 01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,622 preserve these fossils. So it's just like, there's just 1355 01:07:51,622 --> 01:07:54,908 so many layers to this, and it is really gross. 1356 01:07:54,908 --> 01:07:59,380 And I worked, my true boss at Museum of the Rockies was who 1357 01:07:59,380 --> 01:08:01,041 was the. Oh, my God. 1358 01:08:01,041 --> 01:08:03,036 Yeah, he was. He was a lot. 1359 01:08:03,036 --> 01:08:05,664 He hated me. He got really mad at me in 2019 1360 01:08:05,664 --> 01:08:08,745 because I went to the Dino shindig at the Carter County 1361 01:08:08,745 --> 01:08:11,980 Museum in Ikalaka. And I was very disappointed in 1362 01:08:11,980 --> 01:08:14,540 their speakers. They had like 14 speakers at the 1363 01:08:14,540 --> 01:08:18,439 event and 12 of them were white men or like 11 of them were 1364 01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:21,986 white men or men, I should say. And when they were called out on 1365 01:08:21,986 --> 01:08:25,020 social media about this and the Paleo education group, their, 1366 01:08:25,020 --> 01:08:28,390 their curator, their executive director was like, what are you 1367 01:08:28,390 --> 01:08:30,319 talking about? We had lots of diversity. 1368 01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:32,801 Some people talked about Pachycephalosaurus, some people 1369 01:08:32,801 --> 01:08:35,840 talked about Mosasaurus. We even had a mammal talk and 1370 01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,470 the whole community was like, that's not what we're fucking 1371 01:08:38,470 --> 01:08:40,000 talking about. Like this isn't. 1372 01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:44,042 So anyway, I went on then Twitter and said Dino Shindig is 1373 01:08:44,042 --> 01:08:46,952 pale, stale and male because it fucking was. 1374 01:08:46,952 --> 01:08:52,840 And about a month later I got called in to office and he 1375 01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:57,761 pretty him and the curator sat me down, blocked me in there and 1376 01:08:57,761 --> 01:09:01,800 yelled at me for like 2 hours. The curator blocked was like 1377 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,334 sure he's like this unassuming guy, but he was literally 1378 01:09:05,334 --> 01:09:09,060 blocking my exit and says to me, you know, because he was 1379 01:09:09,060 --> 01:09:11,240 horrified that I had said something out against the Carter 1380 01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:14,497 County Museum, who is one of our sister museums of Museum of the 1381 01:09:14,497 --> 01:09:16,696 Rockies. And he says to me, we always 1382 01:09:16,696 --> 01:09:19,279 stand by our friends. We always stand by our 1383 01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:22,684 colleagues, even if we don't agree with them, even if we're 1384 01:09:22,684 --> 01:09:26,660 no matter what, even if we do not like what they're doing. 1385 01:09:26,660 --> 01:09:29,823 We stand by them. And I swear to God, Megan chills 1386 01:09:29,823 --> 01:09:33,305 went down my spine because I was like, what are you covering up? 1387 01:09:33,305 --> 01:09:36,439 What are you covering up? And he kept yelling at me for 1388 01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:39,175 like another hour or so. I just remember having snot 1389 01:09:39,175 --> 01:09:42,010 running down my face. Not neither of them gave me a 1390 01:09:42,010 --> 01:09:43,578 break. Never of them offered me a 1391 01:09:43,578 --> 01:09:46,161 tissue. I'm just wiping my tears and my 1392 01:09:46,161 --> 01:09:49,911 snot on my shirt like as they're just screaming at me. 1393 01:09:49,911 --> 01:09:54,189 And that was because I should have had loyalty to Museum of 1394 01:09:54,189 --> 01:09:56,690 the Rockies. This man who was just screaming 1395 01:09:56,690 --> 01:09:59,522 at me. I was supposed to be loyal to 1396 01:09:59,522 --> 01:10:02,760 him and that because he said so. And he used to tell these 1397 01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,954 stories about how him and Jack would go party at the dorms at 1398 01:10:05,954 --> 01:10:09,254 MSU 20 years ago. And he was in his 60s at that 1399 01:10:09,254 --> 01:10:11,484 point. So I'm like, so you guys were 1400 01:10:11,484 --> 01:10:14,320 creepy 40 year old men partying in college dorm rooms. 1401 01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,334 Like just some fucked up shit, man. 1402 01:10:16,334 --> 01:10:19,440 Some super fucked up shit. So it's just like, like, yeah, 1403 01:10:19,440 --> 01:10:22,320 none of us have ever had the people closest to this situation 1404 01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:25,200 are not going to speak up. If you have noticed, Museum of 1405 01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:28,218 the Rockies has gone radio silent in the last couple of 1406 01:10:28,218 --> 01:10:30,792 days. None of them who are usually 1407 01:10:30,792 --> 01:10:33,880 avid Jack Horner supporters. In fact, you can see people who 1408 01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:36,920 are employed by their commenting all over his Instagram posts 1409 01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,056 with admiration and they're not saying anything at all. 1410 01:10:40,056 --> 01:10:42,730 And again, it's just they know the most. 1411 01:10:42,730 --> 01:10:45,963 And I, I'm horrified that, I mean, I knew at the time that 1412 01:10:45,963 --> 01:10:47,850 they were never going to do the right thing because he was 1413 01:10:47,850 --> 01:10:49,285 telling me we don't do the right thing. 1414 01:10:49,285 --> 01:10:52,608 We do the thing that holds up these relationships and these 1415 01:10:52,608 --> 01:10:54,340 partnerships. He said it to me. 1416 01:10:54,340 --> 01:10:56,360 And so with all this. Motto. 1417 01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,160 Yeah, right. So what the fuck yeah. 1418 01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:02,362 And then he tried to get me put me on suspension, tried to get 1419 01:11:02,362 --> 01:11:05,270 me fired because he didn't like that I didn't Olay ad on my 1420 01:11:05,270 --> 01:11:06,872 Instagram. It was so stupid. 1421 01:11:06,872 --> 01:11:10,562 So it was time to leave. But it's there's just so many 1422 01:11:10,562 --> 01:11:15,254 layers to this that SVP has known for a very long time about 1423 01:11:15,254 --> 01:11:17,092 these issues. It doesn't make any sense. 1424 01:11:17,092 --> 01:11:20,440 My friend again is telling me you should report it and I'm 1425 01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:23,090 going why they don't listen to our reports. 1426 01:11:23,090 --> 01:11:26,322 I would rather make a stink. I would rather make some noise. 1427 01:11:26,322 --> 01:11:29,228 Well, and like they had a community meeting this afternoon 1428 01:11:29,228 --> 01:11:32,480 and they specifically said that if you weren't a member, you 1429 01:11:32,480 --> 01:11:34,864 weren't allowed to talk at the community meeting, which I 1430 01:11:34,864 --> 01:11:38,280 haven't been a member for a long time for a variety of reasons. 1431 01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:41,238 Not just because I have a policy, which is that I don't 1432 01:11:41,238 --> 01:11:44,492 pay to be sexually harassed, which would include not paying 1433 01:11:44,492 --> 01:11:48,384 to go to these conferences, but also I definitely don't pay 1434 01:11:48,384 --> 01:11:51,480 through the fucking nose to go and be sexually harassed. 1435 01:11:51,480 --> 01:11:54,480 And SVP, if you're listening to this and you're not a 1436 01:11:54,480 --> 01:11:56,720 intelligence and you're not a scientist, you might not 1437 01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:59,820 understand why these conferences are such a big deal. 1438 01:11:59,820 --> 01:12:03,000 And you would be correct. But The thing is that 1439 01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,410 conferences are like this weird conferences and society 1440 01:12:05,410 --> 01:12:08,888 memberships are like this weird, implicitly expected part of 1441 01:12:08,888 --> 01:12:12,344 being a scientist where you go to these conferences before 1442 01:12:12,344 --> 01:12:15,200 you're done with your research. And the idea is theoretically 1443 01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:18,266 you're supposed to present them and then like maybe get some 1444 01:12:18,266 --> 01:12:21,127 ideas and feedback from people before you finish. 1445 01:12:21,127 --> 01:12:24,920 That's never what happens. People go to piss on their 1446 01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:28,558 section of research and tell the world about it so that nobody 1447 01:12:28,558 --> 01:12:31,867 else bothers to go and do it. Like that's what conferences are 1448 01:12:31,867 --> 01:12:34,480 for. And SVP is particularly toxic to 1449 01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:39,094 the extent where I don't think it's truly an SVP poster session 1450 01:12:39,094 --> 01:12:43,000 if a older man has not made a student cry. 1451 01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:47,015 If there's not a crying student at the poster session, it's not 1452 01:12:47,015 --> 01:12:51,444 a fucking SVP poster session. So I don't go to that conference 1453 01:12:51,444 --> 01:12:54,910 because why would I? It just seems like there's so 1454 01:12:54,910 --> 01:12:58,120 many things in science and academia that just seem like 1455 01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,240 they don't benefit me, they don't benefit my students, they 1456 01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:04,176 don't benefit my friends. They don't even, at this point 1457 01:13:04,176 --> 01:13:06,099 really benefit old men. I guess they wouldn't have 1458 01:13:06,099 --> 01:13:09,768 anybody to yell at if we didn't have post or something. 1459 01:13:09,768 --> 01:13:15,104 But yeah, it's just, it's this weird habit that we're all kind 1460 01:13:15,104 --> 01:13:18,896 of told that in order to be a scientist, you have to be a part 1461 01:13:18,896 --> 01:13:21,550 of these memberships. And there's also this like thing 1462 01:13:21,550 --> 01:13:25,142 where a lot of people wanting to go to Graduate School and people 1463 01:13:25,142 --> 01:13:28,244 wanting to, like move to the next stage in their career are 1464 01:13:28,244 --> 01:13:31,895 often told that they need to go to these conferences to network. 1465 01:13:31,895 --> 01:13:35,940 And sure, you're going to meet a ton of people to network with. 1466 01:13:35,940 --> 01:13:39,144 And that's part of why these conferences are important and 1467 01:13:39,144 --> 01:13:43,168 why they have stuck around despite like being toxic fests. 1468 01:13:43,168 --> 01:13:47,660 No, but I just, I don't, I don't think it's personally worth it. 1469 01:13:47,660 --> 01:13:50,836 And I do tell students that they, if they want to go and try 1470 01:13:50,836 --> 01:13:53,758 and meet some of their advisors and talk to them in person, like 1471 01:13:53,758 --> 01:13:55,766 potential advisors, that it is a good way. 1472 01:13:55,766 --> 01:13:58,225 But frankly, there are cheaper conferences that paleontologists 1473 01:13:58,225 --> 01:14:00,000 go to that are better. That's. 1474 01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:01,125 True. Yeah, that's true. 1475 01:14:01,125 --> 01:14:02,840 I mean, and it is. It's tricky. 1476 01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,168 It's so tricky too, because I think a lot of us too have a 1477 01:14:06,168 --> 01:14:09,755 nostalgia aspect. I loved my first few SVPS, like 1478 01:14:09,755 --> 01:14:12,036 they were like, they're so exciting. 1479 01:14:12,036 --> 01:14:16,768 And I have had a lot of good successes come out of SVP for 1480 01:14:16,768 --> 01:14:20,160 whether that's, well, actually in hindsight, pretty shitty. 1481 01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:24,606 That's where I met my master. That's where I met my graduate 1482 01:14:24,606 --> 01:14:27,070 advisor. That's where I heard about the 1483 01:14:27,070 --> 01:14:29,569 Mor job. The guy who's doing all of our 1484 01:14:29,569 --> 01:14:31,946 exhibits right now, I've known him because of SVP meetings. 1485 01:14:31,946 --> 01:14:34,936 So yeah, like there is important key networking that happens. 1486 01:14:34,936 --> 01:14:39,392 And now I love to just go to just like show off my successes 1487 01:14:39,392 --> 01:14:43,076 so all my enemies have to see me and be like, ha, ha, ha. 1488 01:14:43,076 --> 01:14:47,462 But it sucks because like I love what they in theory stand for. 1489 01:14:47,462 --> 01:14:51,340 I love what this field in theory stands for. 1490 01:14:51,340 --> 01:14:55,480 It's really hard to grapple with the reality of these places that 1491 01:14:55,480 --> 01:14:58,432 I want to be a part of. I love the socializing. 1492 01:14:58,432 --> 01:15:01,202 I never go to talks, dude. Sitting in that session was the 1493 01:15:01,202 --> 01:15:03,547 longest I've ever sat in one session because I was moderating 1494 01:15:03,547 --> 01:15:04,922 it. I was like, I'm so bored. 1495 01:15:04,922 --> 01:15:07,872 But I go for the networking. I go for the connections, I go 1496 01:15:07,872 --> 01:15:10,208 to see friends. I go for all of those reasons. 1497 01:15:10,208 --> 01:15:13,502 And it is shitty to have to be like, OK, I mean, I'm just going 1498 01:15:13,502 --> 01:15:16,608 to create my own like Paleo Fest at Dino Ridge or something to 1499 01:15:16,608 --> 01:15:18,823 invite those people to see me or something. 1500 01:15:18,823 --> 01:15:21,670 But it sucks because in theory they're good. 1501 01:15:21,670 --> 01:15:26,176 In practice they're done by shitty humans who are not good. 1502 01:15:26,176 --> 01:15:28,225 And that is it's. Really. 1503 01:15:28,225 --> 01:15:31,854 And if that's really sad, rid of those people right there is no 1504 01:15:31,854 --> 01:15:33,240 point to you. Right. 1505 01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,226 No. And that's where I've come to. 1506 01:15:35,226 --> 01:15:38,336 Oh, SVP does not care about me. They're not interested in 1507 01:15:38,336 --> 01:15:40,280 protecting. They're much more interested in 1508 01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:43,640 upholding the old guard, the ivory tower, the exclusion game. 1509 01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:46,894 And that's what, for whatever reason, it's not going to age 1510 01:15:46,894 --> 01:15:48,748 well for them. These are choices that they have 1511 01:15:48,748 --> 01:15:50,780 to live with. I'm disappointed in my friends 1512 01:15:50,780 --> 01:15:54,160 who are are in leadership who are kowtowing to this and who 1513 01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:56,848 are holding it up because again, it's their own reputations. 1514 01:15:56,848 --> 01:16:00,260 They feel like they have to. But that is how we get into 1515 01:16:00,260 --> 01:16:03,008 these Jeffrey Epstein situations anyway, like do the right thing. 1516 01:16:03,008 --> 01:16:05,966 And, and I also want to say I should have said that at the 1517 01:16:05,966 --> 01:16:08,212 beginning. A lot of people have had really 1518 01:16:08,212 --> 01:16:09,645 great positive experiences with Jack. 1519 01:16:09,645 --> 01:16:14,300 And I am not here to say that this man is pure evil, that this 1520 01:16:14,300 --> 01:16:17,275 man is horrid, that everything he touches turns to horrid. 1521 01:16:17,275 --> 01:16:19,045 Like, I'm not saying that at all. 1522 01:16:19,045 --> 01:16:22,605 I know quite a few people who have had great experiences with 1523 01:16:22,605 --> 01:16:25,976 Jack, and guess what? Both of these things can fucking 1524 01:16:25,976 --> 01:16:29,539 exist. 1 does not. Negate the other or white? 1525 01:16:29,539 --> 01:16:33,160 I feel like yes, yes, people are like barcodes. 1526 01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:36,850 They're just a series of good and bad and mediocre things. 1527 01:16:36,850 --> 01:16:40,400 And yeah, and I think that it's important to recognize that, but 1528 01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:43,775 it's also important to recognize that how it can hold you back 1529 01:16:43,775 --> 01:16:44,527 sometimes. Yes. 1530 01:16:44,527 --> 01:16:48,674 I remember when Greg Retallack wiped ice cream off of my boob 1531 01:16:48,674 --> 01:16:52,392 at a fucking party. After years of making extremely 1532 01:16:52,392 --> 01:16:55,635 inappropriate jokes and making me very uncomfortable and having 1533 01:16:55,635 --> 01:16:58,524 a lot of rumors about him, I didn't want to get him fired 1534 01:16:58,524 --> 01:17:01,962 because I knew that he was the only person who would work work 1535 01:17:01,962 --> 01:17:05,380 with some of our like, more disabled grad students who had 1536 01:17:05,380 --> 01:17:07,664 to, like, leave their advisors because they've been 1537 01:17:07,664 --> 01:17:10,140 discriminated against. And like, he was really great 1538 01:17:10,140 --> 01:17:12,983 about working with those people. And he was really kind if you 1539 01:17:12,983 --> 01:17:15,815 were sick. And I didn't want to fuck that 1540 01:17:15,815 --> 01:17:18,120 up. But at a certain point, you and 1541 01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:21,825 I both know this, they escalate like you have to draw a line 1542 01:17:21,825 --> 01:17:25,750 somewhere, because if you keep giving that inch, it just gets 1543 01:17:25,750 --> 01:17:28,908 worse and worse and worse. And sometimes it's boundary 1544 01:17:28,908 --> 01:17:31,880 testing and sometimes it's them just revealing who they are. 1545 01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:34,302 But like, yeah, just because someone could be a good person 1546 01:17:34,302 --> 01:17:36,550 in some ways doesn't mean that they're not fucking awful in 1547 01:17:36,550 --> 01:17:39,187 ways that would require them to be removed from a position. 1548 01:17:39,187 --> 01:17:41,059 Right. And for me, so much of it is 1549 01:17:41,059 --> 01:17:43,090 about taking that acknowledgement, taking the 1550 01:17:43,090 --> 01:17:45,695 responsibility. I don't even need you to fucking 1551 01:17:45,695 --> 01:17:48,080 apologize. It's just owning like, you know, 1552 01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,440 Jack's response, it's, it's not taking ownership. 1553 01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:53,100 It's again making excuses. It's essentially being 1554 01:17:53,100 --> 01:17:55,135 defensive. That don't impress me much. 1555 01:17:55,135 --> 01:17:58,980 I'd really rather you have be like, I know this looks really 1556 01:17:58,980 --> 01:18:02,444 fucking bad, like I just like just own it. 1557 01:18:02,444 --> 01:18:05,808 Like it's same with SVP like oh, this doesn't look good. 1558 01:18:05,808 --> 01:18:09,450 You know, it's just such a choice and it's a generation, it 1559 01:18:09,450 --> 01:18:13,150 seems to be a generational divide in some ways, which is 1560 01:18:13,150 --> 01:18:15,939 also interesting. And I'm just going like, you 1561 01:18:15,939 --> 01:18:20,010 know, OK, Like, and I'm sorry to folks and especially women who 1562 01:18:20,010 --> 01:18:23,459 have of the of a different generation who did have to 1563 01:18:23,459 --> 01:18:27,520 tolerate a ton of this shit and now is almost normalized it in 1564 01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:29,822 some ways. That does not mean that you and 1565 01:18:29,822 --> 01:18:32,984 I have to tolerate this shit in 2026 or anyone else. 1566 01:18:32,984 --> 01:18:36,672 But I'm not over here encouraging people to go into 1567 01:18:36,672 --> 01:18:39,740 paleontology when it's going, especially if they look like me, 1568 01:18:39,740 --> 01:18:43,408 if that means that I'm just setting them up for a hell of a 1569 01:18:43,408 --> 01:18:47,463 lot of heartache and a bunch of just conflict and it's not worth 1570 01:18:47,463 --> 01:18:48,880 it. But it's so hard. 1571 01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,224 I love this field with every little piece of me. 1572 01:18:51,224 --> 01:18:53,560 It's a part of me. It's my community, it's my 1573 01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:55,230 friends, It's my, it's my everything. 1574 01:18:55,230 --> 01:18:57,602 And it's just. And that's why I feel so like, 1575 01:18:57,602 --> 01:19:00,560 yeah, I worked at Museum of the Rockies, which benefited from 1576 01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:02,280 being associated with Jeffrey Epstein. 1577 01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:04,240 I have to. I have to grapple with that. 1578 01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:06,121 And I'm over here going. I did that. 1579 01:19:06,121 --> 01:19:08,096 I did that. I'm taking accountability. 1580 01:19:08,096 --> 01:19:11,680 I fucking did that and I fucking got out when I could because it 1581 01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:14,325 was a shit show. And yes, it probably did help my 1582 01:19:14,325 --> 01:19:17,348 reputation that I have that institution on my resume. 1583 01:19:17,348 --> 01:19:21,502 Come on everybody, like let's own our shit and be real. 1584 01:19:21,502 --> 01:19:24,979 And just like meet each other with instead of this just like, 1585 01:19:24,979 --> 01:19:28,415 Oh my God, the smoke and mirrors and pretending that stuff isn't 1586 01:19:28,415 --> 01:19:31,635 going on in gaslighting. It's just like a whole Society 1587 01:19:31,635 --> 01:19:35,960 of gaslighting and it's just making me very, very, very 1588 01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:40,095 disappointed in SVP. I'm super disappointed in SVP. 1589 01:19:40,095 --> 01:19:43,325 And unless they just dramatically change theirs, 1590 01:19:43,325 --> 01:19:47,700 their ways and change the dialogue around this and own up 1591 01:19:47,700 --> 01:19:51,306 that let us do our investigation and we agree this is pretty 1592 01:19:51,306 --> 01:19:54,052 concerning, which is kind of what I wanted until you're 1593 01:19:54,052 --> 01:19:57,242 willing to do that and actually like maybe follow up with when, 1594 01:19:57,242 --> 01:20:00,695 Maybe follow up with the other women I know who have made valid 1595 01:20:00,695 --> 01:20:02,698 ask complaints that you guys just said. 1596 01:20:02,698 --> 01:20:05,065 It's just hearsay because that's the other problem, Megan, we 1597 01:20:05,065 --> 01:20:07,620 know this well. There is no way there. 1598 01:20:07,620 --> 01:20:11,358 What other way is there? There are no there's no recourse 1599 01:20:11,358 --> 01:20:15,095 for us when we just when we submit an ethics complaint and 1600 01:20:15,095 --> 01:20:18,674 they go well, it's just hearsay. It's your word against usually 1601 01:20:18,674 --> 01:20:21,302 his. So what the fuck are we supposed 1602 01:20:21,302 --> 01:20:25,075 to do if it's not hearsay? It's true, but there's no Ave. 1603 01:20:25,075 --> 01:20:28,660 for us to do this. It's we've just we all we have 1604 01:20:28,660 --> 01:20:31,724 is the whisper network. All we have is I just tell 1605 01:20:31,724 --> 01:20:34,923 students, hey, you don't want to work with so and so, or hey, 1606 01:20:34,923 --> 01:20:37,882 before you go do field work with this person, here's what I know. 1607 01:20:37,882 --> 01:20:40,890 It's your choice, but I just want you full transparency to 1608 01:20:40,890 --> 01:20:43,200 know what has been heard about this person. 1609 01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:46,422 But that's all I have and it pisses me off and we've talked 1610 01:20:46,422 --> 01:20:49,508 about this for years, but how the fuck do we hold people 1611 01:20:49,508 --> 01:20:52,328 accountable when it's constantly, well, it's just 1612 01:20:52,328 --> 01:20:54,815 hearsay? Well, and I mean, in Win's case, 1613 01:20:54,815 --> 01:20:57,520 it's she was not the only person in the room, right? 1614 01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:59,960 You can ask other people. They saw it. 1615 01:20:59,960 --> 01:21:01,134 Yeah. Like it's. 1616 01:21:01,134 --> 01:21:05,312 How are they excusing? Like how is this so easy to just 1617 01:21:05,312 --> 01:21:09,294 disregard, to sweep under a rug? And just what excuses are they 1618 01:21:09,294 --> 01:21:11,356 telling them they're? Afraid of being sued. 1619 01:21:11,356 --> 01:21:15,521 They're afraid of being sued even though by their own rules, 1620 01:21:15,521 --> 01:21:20,315 they would win. And frankly, if SVP was getting 1621 01:21:20,315 --> 01:21:24,805 sued by somebody because they kicked them out for bad 1622 01:21:24,805 --> 01:21:28,921 behavior, I would be happy to rejoin SVP and give them my 1623 01:21:28,921 --> 01:21:31,376 money to fund. Defending themselves like that 1624 01:21:31,376 --> 01:21:35,090 is a valid use of our money. What we're currently using it 1625 01:21:35,090 --> 01:21:37,860 for fucking sucks. Right it's it's it's super true 1626 01:21:37,860 --> 01:21:41,152 yeah it's it's really sad so yeah, I'm being I'm I didn't 1627 01:21:41,152 --> 01:21:44,066 want to be done. I was low key like looking 1628 01:21:44,066 --> 01:21:47,883 forward to doing a presentation on our cool research at SVP down 1629 01:21:47,883 --> 01:21:50,907 the road and now I'm like now fuck it, GSA. 1630 01:21:50,907 --> 01:21:54,134 I mean, GSA isn't perfect either by any means, but you know, it's 1631 01:21:54,134 --> 01:21:55,410 at least. They get back to you. 1632 01:21:55,410 --> 01:21:56,832 Yeah, at least they get back to you. 1633 01:21:56,832 --> 01:21:59,390 At least they're cheaper. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, it's 1634 01:21:59,390 --> 01:22:01,972 really hard. And to some of our friends who 1635 01:22:01,972 --> 01:22:05,620 are trying to change SVP within like, I, I admire that, but I'm 1636 01:22:05,620 --> 01:22:08,180 also like, save yourself. Like it's not worth your time 1637 01:22:08,180 --> 01:22:10,020 and effort. They're not they're it doesn't 1638 01:22:10,020 --> 01:22:12,520 seem like they're they're not giving me any indication that 1639 01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:13,950 they're willing and open to change. 1640 01:22:13,950 --> 01:22:16,992 So how much more evidence do we need to see that? 1641 01:22:16,992 --> 01:22:19,970 Just let's just wipe our hands of of this society. 1642 01:22:19,970 --> 01:22:22,212 Let them be their little esoteric group. 1643 01:22:22,212 --> 01:22:25,698 Let them enjoy their little ivory tower circle jerk. 1644 01:22:25,698 --> 01:22:28,192 And can we? Start a new society. 1645 01:22:28,192 --> 01:22:32,262 Like, you know, like, right, but I want to create ways for people 1646 01:22:32,262 --> 01:22:35,706 to network safely and for people to share their research safely. 1647 01:22:35,706 --> 01:22:40,500 And SVP is just really crumbled my confidence in the last two 1648 01:22:40,500 --> 01:22:43,546 years especially. And The thing is like, you never 1649 01:22:43,546 --> 01:22:47,972 know who it's going to be. I have written with people who 1650 01:22:47,972 --> 01:22:51,557 got fired for sexual harassment. I've got a paper out with a 1651 01:22:51,557 --> 01:22:55,496 person who at the time I had no idea she got fired because she 1652 01:22:55,496 --> 01:22:57,446 was sexually harassing a graduate student. 1653 01:22:57,446 --> 01:22:59,374 We're on a we're co-authors on a paper. 1654 01:22:59,374 --> 01:23:02,315 She stopped emailing us back. It's a certain point because, 1655 01:23:02,315 --> 01:23:04,384 well, we thought that she was having trouble getting tenure. 1656 01:23:04,384 --> 01:23:07,056 Turns out she was being investigated to be eventually 1657 01:23:07,056 --> 01:23:09,430 fired. But like you have to be. 1658 01:23:09,430 --> 01:23:11,372 And like. I'm currently Co authoring 2 1659 01:23:11,372 --> 01:23:15,589 papers with someone who I won't name but like has a not great 1660 01:23:15,589 --> 01:23:17,716 reputation that we know isn't awesome. 1661 01:23:17,716 --> 01:23:22,175 But also I don't want to cut him off of the papers because he was 1662 01:23:22,175 --> 01:23:23,614 a very big part of the contribution. 1663 01:23:23,614 --> 01:23:27,660 And I do feel like you you can get into some trouble by cutting 1664 01:23:27,660 --> 01:23:30,141 people off of papers if they have actually genuinely 1665 01:23:30,141 --> 01:23:32,624 contributed to them. Intellectual property, you know. 1666 01:23:32,624 --> 01:23:36,478 And it goes back to how insular and tiny our field is. 1667 01:23:36,478 --> 01:23:40,210 You can't really publish on that topic that I know you are 1668 01:23:40,210 --> 01:23:43,565 working on because without that individual, because of how small 1669 01:23:43,565 --> 01:23:47,345 the field is and yeah, it's like it's pretty much impossible to 1670 01:23:47,345 --> 01:23:49,375 avoid that person. And so it's that's right. 1671 01:23:49,375 --> 01:23:52,619 And so I'm in that quandary too, with someone that I yes, that I 1672 01:23:52,619 --> 01:23:55,344 does not work at my organization, but I sometimes 1673 01:23:55,344 --> 01:23:56,983 right. And I'm just it's, it's the 1674 01:23:56,983 --> 01:23:59,092 thing. Is like, you know, and I didn't 1675 01:23:59,092 --> 01:24:01,120 know for sure when we started that project. 1676 01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:03,520 If I had known, I wouldn't have started that project. 1677 01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:07,224 But how do we tell people right without it being hearsay? 1678 01:24:07,224 --> 01:24:09,172 Yes. And The thing is, I think that 1679 01:24:09,172 --> 01:24:12,300 when you are in charge of something like a conference or 1680 01:24:12,300 --> 01:24:16,305 honestly even like a Discord group, you have a responsibility 1681 01:24:16,305 --> 01:24:21,249 to be the person who is willing to lay down the law. 1682 01:24:21,249 --> 01:24:25,120 Like you have rules, you have to be willing to follow them, 1683 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:26,960 right? Because I think it's very, I'm 1684 01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:29,568 part of a Discord group in paleontology where I haven't 1685 01:24:29,568 --> 01:24:33,170 checked in on this in a while, but there was someone who, you 1686 01:24:33,170 --> 01:24:36,495 know, stalked another member and was really scary and crazy and 1687 01:24:36,495 --> 01:24:39,586 lots of valid complaints and lots of people watching it. 1688 01:24:39,586 --> 01:24:43,454 And I don't think that the moderator has kicked them out 1689 01:24:43,454 --> 01:24:46,005 still. And I understand that it can be 1690 01:24:46,005 --> 01:24:50,106 very difficult to hear that someone that you like and no is 1691 01:24:50,106 --> 01:24:54,750 doing things that mean that they are not worth associating with. 1692 01:24:54,750 --> 01:24:58,100 It's unpleasant. I know that I saw a blue sky the 1693 01:24:58,100 --> 01:25:00,460 other day, like someone was like, why don't we start 1694 01:25:00,460 --> 01:25:03,140 listening all listing all the people that are like amazing and 1695 01:25:03,140 --> 01:25:04,660 wonderful to work with in paleontology. 1696 01:25:04,660 --> 01:25:08,482 And I was like that. What a surefire way to ensure 1697 01:25:08,482 --> 01:25:11,698 well, and you now you don't know, you know. 1698 01:25:11,698 --> 01:25:15,018 You don't know, right? Yeah, and I saw another Pat. 1699 01:25:15,018 --> 01:25:16,315 Lebinsky. Pat Lebinsky's amazing. 1700 01:25:16,315 --> 01:25:19,116 He's been fantastic to me. I only know my experiences with 1701 01:25:19,116 --> 01:25:21,715 him and I'm worried that if I put him on that list. 1702 01:25:21,715 --> 01:25:24,362 Right, right. I think this should be evidenced 1703 01:25:24,362 --> 01:25:27,050 in itself and lists in general are are crazy. 1704 01:25:27,050 --> 01:25:29,940 But then I saw someone commenting on that being like, 1705 01:25:29,940 --> 01:25:32,736 ha, really interesting to see someone super problematic and 1706 01:25:32,736 --> 01:25:36,400 paleo like listing a bunch of people who are good and but you 1707 01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:39,805 know, like when there are no guidelines, parameters agreed 1708 01:25:39,805 --> 01:25:44,176 upon conditions, then it then quickly can be a way of covering 1709 01:25:44,176 --> 01:25:47,448 your ass or trying to make a a positive like legacy for 1710 01:25:47,448 --> 01:25:49,210 yourself. Like, it's a good way to cover 1711 01:25:49,210 --> 01:25:51,090 your tracks. And it's just really icky. 1712 01:25:51,090 --> 01:25:53,792 Like I hate. Yeah, a lot of times groups in 1713 01:25:53,792 --> 01:25:55,272 general just don't. It's it's a. 1714 01:25:55,272 --> 01:25:57,436 Slip, you got to be willing to be the bitch. 1715 01:25:57,436 --> 01:26:01,363 Amy and I have been the bitch. We have worked to make sure that 1716 01:26:01,363 --> 01:26:04,730 that is on the record and it fucking sucks and it sucks 1717 01:26:04,730 --> 01:26:06,272 especially if you respected somebody. 1718 01:26:06,272 --> 01:26:09,820 It really hurts but. And to me, they can come back, 1719 01:26:09,820 --> 01:26:12,776 especially if it's not being associated with a pedophile. 1720 01:26:12,776 --> 01:26:17,430 That is a bit of a like because I face this in like a cancel 1721 01:26:17,430 --> 01:26:19,612 culture in other fields and things, things like that. 1722 01:26:19,612 --> 01:26:23,469 And I really do think for me it's all about like taking some 1723 01:26:23,469 --> 01:26:26,144 accountability. I will give you a lot of do 1724 01:26:26,144 --> 01:26:29,142 overs or another shot if you're able to self reflect and be 1725 01:26:29,142 --> 01:26:32,235 like, my bad, I fucked up. Yeah, that is apparently very. 1726 01:26:32,235 --> 01:26:34,100 Hard no. I had this project. 1727 01:26:34,100 --> 01:26:36,014 I was incredibly passionate about it. 1728 01:26:36,014 --> 01:26:39,384 I couldn't get funding. The only person I could find 1729 01:26:39,384 --> 01:26:41,075 funding from was Jeffrey Epstein. 1730 01:26:41,075 --> 01:26:44,988 I am embarrassed that I ever sunk that low. 1731 01:26:44,988 --> 01:26:48,120 I'm going to work really hard in the future. 1732 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:50,860 Here's X Z things that I'm donating to. 1733 01:26:50,860 --> 01:26:55,460 Here's the things that I am involved in to improve the 1734 01:26:55,460 --> 01:26:57,508 field. Those here's the therapist I'm 1735 01:26:57,508 --> 01:26:59,680 fucking seeing like right, right. 1736 01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:03,608 Giving us action actions. Own it and show us how you are. 1737 01:27:03,608 --> 01:27:05,469 Don't just making the world a better. 1738 01:27:05,469 --> 01:27:09,920 Place don't just try to do. Right and deflect and try and 1739 01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:13,100 distance yourself from it. Be an adult, own up. 1740 01:27:13,100 --> 01:27:17,271 This shit happened that you were, that you played by it for 1741 01:27:17,271 --> 01:27:20,088 maybe psychological reasons and maybe some of you know, but 1742 01:27:20,088 --> 01:27:24,307 it's, it's just, I can do a lot of forgiveness as long as people 1743 01:27:24,307 --> 01:27:27,735 actually own up. But the problem I've seen so 1744 01:27:27,735 --> 01:27:32,380 often in paleo is that they are in denial and very headstrong 1745 01:27:32,380 --> 01:27:36,732 about having done nothing wrong. And then they do turn around and 1746 01:27:36,732 --> 01:27:38,898 sue when they finally get forced out. 1747 01:27:38,898 --> 01:27:43,402 And it's, it's just, and then they, they win in some ways. 1748 01:27:43,402 --> 01:27:47,752 So, yeah, I don't have a conclusion for what should 1749 01:27:47,752 --> 01:27:50,400 happen. I just am disappointed in the 1750 01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:51,864 Society of Vertebrate Paleontology. 1751 01:27:51,864 --> 01:27:55,580 I'm disappointed, but not surprised by this new 1752 01:27:55,580 --> 01:27:59,520 development with Jack Horner. I'm, I feel good about the 1753 01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:03,738 stance I've had towards him for a very long time, which is, Oh 1754 01:28:03,738 --> 01:28:05,818 my God. There was one time he was 1755 01:28:05,818 --> 01:28:07,768 visiting. I did have to work with him a 1756 01:28:07,768 --> 01:28:10,852 couple of times and I was doing a tour upstairs in the exhibit 1757 01:28:10,852 --> 01:28:14,210 hall and he was there with wife #5 who I think he's still 1758 01:28:14,210 --> 01:28:16,777 married to. And yeah, this group was like, 1759 01:28:16,777 --> 01:28:20,198 oh, could we get a picture with our group and Jack and you? 1760 01:28:20,198 --> 01:28:24,480 And I was like, no. And I did it. 1761 01:28:24,480 --> 01:28:27,144 I took this picture. I stood as far from him as I 1762 01:28:27,144 --> 01:28:28,418 possibly could. I'm probably grimacing. 1763 01:28:28,418 --> 01:28:31,190 So somewhere out there, somewhere out there, there is a 1764 01:28:31,190 --> 01:28:33,354 picture of me and Jack. And like, I don't like that. 1765 01:28:33,354 --> 01:28:34,880 I didn't like it at the fucking time. 1766 01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:38,751 I just remember at the time being like, oh, I don't want to 1767 01:28:38,751 --> 01:28:44,135 be in this picture. It's just so, yeah, I mean, but 1768 01:28:44,135 --> 01:28:48,190 again, he can, you know, he could change my mind on a lot of 1769 01:28:48,190 --> 01:28:50,744 this and SVP could totally change my mind on a lot of this. 1770 01:28:50,744 --> 01:28:52,360 But stop treating us like we're Dum Dums. 1771 01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:54,247 Stop treating us like this is hearsay. 1772 01:28:54,247 --> 01:28:57,080 Stop treating us like our experiences aren't valid. 1773 01:28:57,080 --> 01:29:00,290 It's just because other people's experiences are good, that 1774 01:29:00,290 --> 01:29:03,205 doesn't invalidate those of us who've had negative experiences. 1775 01:29:03,205 --> 01:29:07,015 Let's be holistic about this. Let's be transparent about it, 1776 01:29:07,015 --> 01:29:11,355 and let's just own our shit. But until then, I'm going to 1777 01:29:11,355 --> 01:29:16,528 GSA. It's in Denver this year, guys. 1778 01:29:16,528 --> 01:29:18,624 So come on by and visit Dinosaur Ridge. 1779 01:29:18,624 --> 01:29:21,704 Yeah, you should come. Yeah, because now we could do 1780 01:29:21,704 --> 01:29:24,745 IGMA there because I'm definitely not going to do it at 1781 01:29:24,745 --> 01:29:25,748 SVP. So yeah, Yeah. 1782 01:29:25,748 --> 01:29:28,288 And it's going to be here. You can stay with us except for 1783 01:29:28,288 --> 01:29:32,380 our house is pretty far from there. 1784 01:29:32,380 --> 01:29:35,140 Any final thoughts? We've been going a while. 1785 01:29:35,140 --> 01:29:37,392 I know we've been going for quite some time. 1786 01:29:37,392 --> 01:29:41,700 It's just I feel like there's a lot of people who come into 1787 01:29:41,700 --> 01:29:45,314 paleontology expecting it to not have predators and not have 1788 01:29:45,314 --> 01:29:48,542 problems. But anytime that you have hero 1789 01:29:48,542 --> 01:29:53,040 worship of any kind, it does start to elevate someone's. 1790 01:29:53,040 --> 01:29:55,012 Yeah. It gives them a sense of power. 1791 01:29:55,012 --> 01:29:57,271 And I think in science it becomes particularly obnoxious 1792 01:29:57,271 --> 01:30:01,055 because a lot of us when we were in high school and younger, 1793 01:30:01,055 --> 01:30:04,826 we're told that we were weird. And so to suddenly be given like 1794 01:30:04,826 --> 01:30:09,000 this power and this prestige I think makes them even even 1795 01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:11,380 worse. Which does not excuse it at all. 1796 01:30:11,380 --> 01:30:14,840 Very well, because of your terrible dyslexia and now you're 1797 01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:19,640 treated like a rock star. Like yeah, of course we are 1798 01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:24,104 human, we are fallible to ego and all of this. 1799 01:30:24,104 --> 01:30:28,774 But go to fucking therapy man. Get a therapist. 1800 01:30:28,774 --> 01:30:33,485 Yep, and if a man helicopters himself into your dinosaur dig 1801 01:30:33,485 --> 01:30:37,694 and he tells you that he's going to make all of your dreams 1802 01:30:37,694 --> 01:30:40,800 monetarily come true. At least Google if he is a 1803 01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:42,414 pedophile first. Yes, yes. 1804 01:30:42,414 --> 01:30:45,315 Just a general advice. There you go. 1805 01:30:45,315 --> 01:30:48,400 And then you know what? Actually, the way I want to end 1806 01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:50,778 is we're paleontologists. We're not finding a cure for 1807 01:30:50,778 --> 01:30:53,560 cancer. There's no fucking timeline on 1808 01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:55,200 paleontology. They've been dead for a very 1809 01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:57,380 long time. They can be undiscovered and 1810 01:30:57,380 --> 01:31:00,054 understudied for a very long time yet to come. 1811 01:31:00,054 --> 01:31:01,006 And yes. You. 1812 01:31:01,006 --> 01:31:04,400 Don't need to accept money from a pedophile because nobody will 1813 01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:07,895 fucking die if you don't. Exactly like it does go back to 1814 01:31:07,895 --> 01:31:11,125 we are not saving lives. Even if you reverse engineer a 1815 01:31:11,125 --> 01:31:13,840 fucking chicken, that's going to take more human lives. 1816 01:31:13,840 --> 01:31:18,277 Apparently based on that movie and so, but like, that is such a 1817 01:31:18,277 --> 01:31:20,852 good point because I hear this a lot too. 1818 01:31:20,852 --> 01:31:23,200 It's like, you know, this justification for what? 1819 01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:26,727 Some Cretaceous seashells and for some dinosaurs that was 1820 01:31:26,727 --> 01:31:28,356 work. Projects I have that I couldn't 1821 01:31:28,356 --> 01:31:30,383 get funded and I just didn't do right on. 1822 01:31:30,383 --> 01:31:34,290 But it's true, we are not saving lives so and we're not saving 1823 01:31:34,290 --> 01:31:36,843 the planet. We are not causing like at least 1824 01:31:36,843 --> 01:31:41,210 not this brand, not his brand of paleontology so and or any for 1825 01:31:41,210 --> 01:31:43,500 that matter. But it's like some people study 1826 01:31:43,500 --> 01:31:45,980 like cancer and deep time and that might have helped helpful 1827 01:31:45,980 --> 01:31:47,730 things. But not to take money from 1828 01:31:47,730 --> 01:31:49,520 pedophiles, but like, you know. Right. 1829 01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:52,390 But it's such a little bit of a better argument. 1830 01:31:52,390 --> 01:31:57,427 Why on earth was reverse engineering a chicken worth that 1831 01:31:57,427 --> 01:31:58,672 association? Yeah, exactly. 1832 01:31:58,672 --> 01:32:01,850 I could justify it if it was my dying child. 1833 01:32:01,850 --> 01:32:05,760 The only thing to save these unhoused children if it were, 1834 01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:09,001 you know, like something that actually seemed worthy. 1835 01:32:09,001 --> 01:32:12,784 But we are just talking about big dead chickens. 1836 01:32:12,784 --> 01:32:17,150 So it it is not rocket science. It is not Cancer Research. 1837 01:32:17,150 --> 01:32:21,480 Let's put it in perspective that there is no funding for a Dino 1838 01:32:21,480 --> 01:32:24,528 project that is worth the suffering of another human 1839 01:32:24,528 --> 01:32:25,138 being. Yeah. 1840 01:32:25,138 --> 01:32:27,532 And at some point, we're going to talk about Blood Amber, right 1841 01:32:27,532 --> 01:32:31,412 along those exact same lines. Oh goody. 1842 01:32:31,412 --> 01:32:39,824 If you feel frustrated about this like we do, and you want to 1843 01:32:39,824 --> 01:32:44,121 do something about it, might we suggest that you reach out to 1844 01:32:44,121 --> 01:32:47,635 SVP at vertpaleo.org? That's SVP at vertpaleo.org and 1845 01:32:47,635 --> 01:32:55,942 we hope that you get a response. Special thanks to Max for his 1846 01:32:55,942 --> 01:32:59,400 extra work editing on this one, it was a beast to work with.