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You're listening to Weird and 
Dead, the paleontology podcast 

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that tells evolutions most 
embarrassing and bizarre 

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stories. 
I'm Amy Atwater. 

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And I'm Megan Wetherell, and 
we're two living scientists who 

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are weirdly excited about dead 
things. 

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We're talking all things 
dinosaur sex today, starting off

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with why it did not, in fact, 
happen in lakes. 

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We finally get to talk about 
fossilized cloacas and their 

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dingleberry surprises. 
Dinosaur Dicks and their many 

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different potential shapes. 
How to tell if a dinosaur is a 

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girl or a boy? 
And heads up, you pretty much 

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can. 
And briefly, relatively 

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painlessly. 
Statistics And like always, our 

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podcast covers some disgusting 
stuff, including the list that 

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we just gave you. 
So please pay attention to the 

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content warnings and the 
description. 

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We're going to start off this 
episode with a story about a 

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man, Amy. 
A story about a man who wrote a 

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book that I couldn't get a copy 
of because I refused to pay for 

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it. 
So then I fortunately did find 

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an article he wrote about his 
own book and I read that 

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instead. 
And I am going to be pulling 

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some select quotes from his 
articles because I feel like 

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that's only fair considering 
that's how he fucking does 

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science. 
He picks one tiny factor. 

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And. 
Runs with it, right All right, 

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so the section of my notes here 
is called Things Brian J Ford 

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Forgot Existed, AKA Brian J Ford
is a bubble boy because I just 

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don't think he's fully 
experienced the world. 

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So the book that we're talking 
about is a book called Too Big 

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to walk the New Science of 
Dinosaurs. 

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And we've talked a little bit 
about some of his pet theories 

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in the past because we've talked
about sex lakes, which is the 

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primary idea we're going to 
discuss right now. 

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Which is the idea, yeah, that 
dinosaurs were too big to to 

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walk, but also too big to fuck. 
So they had to walk and fuck in 

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lakes. 
And that is why they went 

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extinct because lakes that 
existed don't exist anymore. 

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I have some issues with that 
whole thing as well. 

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But yeah, so that's. 
Presence or absence of lakes? 

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Absence. 
Or absence of lakes. 

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Lakes famously don't exist 
anymore. 

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They do. 
They do exist anymore. 

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So it has just like so many 
weird. 

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Yeah. 
It just has so many weird 

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assumptions that that's why I 
think he might actually be a 

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bubble boy. 
I don't think he sees the world 

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the same way that the rest of us
does, right. 

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Rest of us like. 
No lakes. 

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It's a sad, sad square with no 
lakes. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
So like some some fundamental 

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underpinning. 
So this whole book can be 

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summarized as dinosaurs are too 
big, they don't make sense. 

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Therefore the only way that they
could have stood up is water. 

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They probably could have only 
made it in water and were just 

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lulling around on the ground if 
they ever got washed to shore. 

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And lakes existed a lot in the 
Mesozoic but don't exist now. 

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He is very specific about these 
being like ponds and lakes is 

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what he calls them if you. 
Define that I want to know what 

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is the size of this pond like 
don't. 

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Expect too much from. 
This like he does not depend, 

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all right. 
Are we talking about like Lake 

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MI? 
Are you talking about like that 

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cute cabin lake, you know? 
No, no, at least. 

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In the big article to fit a 
dinosaur or two. 

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The article that he should have 
written instead of the book that

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is the only version of the book 
that I've read, does not define 

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lakes. 
Unfortunately, like I said, I'm 

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going to take a bunch of select 
quotes and read them to you. 

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And the first quote is, and I 
want you to find the reasoning 

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flaw in this quote. 
No creature of such size could, 

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as the innumerable illustrations
portray them, walk on the shore.

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When elephants try it, they sink
deep in the mud. 

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Amy, have you heard of sand? 
Because Bryan Ford. 

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Has not. 
Apparently elephants are always 

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wallowing in, but literally. 
I. 

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Personally, So we don't 
understand elephants, we don't 

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understand lakes. 
We don't understand lakes. 

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We don't understand mud. 
I will say that I have 

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personally ridden an elephant 
into a river. 

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Both of us left the river. 
This happened in Thailand. 

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It had mud. 
It wasn't like a weird rock 

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river. 
Both of us were fine. 

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So elephants, I will say, are 
significantly more resistant to 

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mud, and Bryan Ford seems to 
think they are. 

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And also, mud is somewhat 
famously among geologists not 

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the only sediment to exist so. 
Right. 

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Or that we find these big dumb 
dinosaurs in like as. 

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A follow up sentence, he wrote. 
It has regularly been concluded 

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that normal alluvial mud would 
have been so soft that the large

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dinosaurs would sink in deeply 
and become trapped. 

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I don't know who concluded that.
There is no citation. 

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Yeah. 
Such is life, these. 

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Are quotes from him bitching 
about dinosaur tracks because he

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thinks that all dinosaur tracks 
indicate that they must have 

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been made underwater, because 
otherwise the dinosaur 

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presumably would still be in 
them? 

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Wow. 
Which does lead me to a couple 

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of other points. 
I Amy, I don't know if you knew 

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this. 
Dinosaurs not all big. 

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Some dinosaurs small. 
Some small dinosaurs still leave

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tracks. 
Yeah, small. 

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So presumably in this lake 
ecosystem, dinosaurs breathe 

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water, dinosaurs make tracks in 
no dinosaur swims. 

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Obviously that's not a thing. 
Yeah. 

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So, OK, moving on, I'm going to 
read 2 sentences. 

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The mean water temperature 
during this era adds a final 

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substantiation. 
It was 37°C, the present day 

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metabolic temperature of the 
homeothermic human species. 

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And then a little later, he said
they inhabited an aquatic 

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environment, so their blood 
temperature was that of their 

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surroundings, close to mammalian
body temperature, so. 

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From the water, not from their 
giant mass, not from that giant 

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badonkadonk. 
That's not what's generating 

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that heat. 
It is the fact that the that the

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water is like 98°. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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That is 98°. 
Fahrenheit. 

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Brian J Ford clearly has never 
been outside of a hot tub 

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because I don't know if you 
know, this coral doesn't grow at

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that high of a temperature. 
I was going to say, that's a 

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fucking hot water. 
I mean, that is like Hot 

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Springs. 
Yeah, that is very warm. 

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Coral grows best between 24 and 
29. 

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OK, OK, so he's only. 
Somewhat famously, we're having 

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bleaching issues and we have not
reached 37°. 

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Also I don't know where he got 
that number from because it is 

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wrong and also I don't think he 
understands what an average is. 

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Well, that's obvious, but that's
not the point, Megan. 

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OK so I'm I'm gathering that he 
lives in a hot tub or hot spring

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and never leaves and it is 
either smaller than a pond or 

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bigger than a lake. 
Yeah, unknown depth. 

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And then the era following the 
age of the dinosaurs was the 

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period when the continents 
drifted towards their current 

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position. 
Mountain building was active, 

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the vast shallow lakes were at 
an end, and the aquatic dinosaur

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environments disappeared. 
So again, and we addressed this 

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last time, A Lakes exist, B 
Oceans. 

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What about A? 
White, right? 

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Right. 
What about? 

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My new hypothesis is that he 
just really hates someone in 

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like Minnesota or Wisconsin. 
It is like, fuck you're 10,000 

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legs. 
They're not real. 

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I'm a lake denier. 
I'm not. 

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Real. 
They are not real. 

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No 100 ton land animal can 
copulate. 

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It's a physical impossibility, 
which is why paleontologists 

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skate over the subject. 
My theory solves the problem. 

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The largest creature that can 
exist on land weighs about 10 

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tons. 
In water. 

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It is 100 tons whether it's a 
whale or dinosaur. 

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Wait, what do? 
You so it's more. 

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No. 
Of any land animals that are not

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dinosaurs that maybe existed 
during the period when 

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apparently the vast shallow 
lakes ended, that was more than 

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10 tons. 
Oh my goodness. 

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Well, actually 10 tons is a bit 
hard for me because I mean, 

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like, we've got our 
motherfucking mammoths. 

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We got our giant ass 
calicotheres, we've got our 

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giant ass andricotheres, we've 
got our giant ass. 

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OK, cool. 
I got there. 

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Now in dirkatheers the the 
estimates on them are wild and 

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insane. 
That's right. 

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But they're estimated between 
like 15 and 30 tons, you know, 

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150 to 300 lbs. 
Like just like. 

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Right, exactly. 
We talked about this Yeah, 

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exactly. 
It's yes, that's that's what I 

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weigh, but. 
It's great, Amy. 

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They lived in the Cenozoic 
during an absence of. 

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There's no lakes in the 
Cenozoic? 

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I've read that somewhere. 
There's no lakes in the 

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Cenozoic. 
Heard that and I want. 

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I want to finalize this 
selection of quotes with his 

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review of a documentary that 
talked about copulation for 

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Diplodocus, and it says the 
commentary mentioned what a 

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risky business population must 
be for the female diplodocus 

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supporting the weight of the 
mounting male. 

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It would also be risky for the 
male. 

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A row of sharp upward projecting
spines runs down the back of 

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these sorepods from head to 
tail. 

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They would shred the male's 
genitals. 

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OK, wait, I have so many 
questions on that. 

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I mean, baby, I don't understand
diplodocus anatomy that well 

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because I'm not aware of the 
sharp spines that are along 

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their back that are there 
obviously just to shred 

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genitals, which great idea 
though. 

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And I also just love like it's 
such a man move to be like, but 

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it was worse for the man. 
All right, let me tell you, it 

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was worse for me, Worse for. 
The man So the full list of 

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things that that article 
revealed to me that Brian J Ford

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forgot existed are the existence
of. 

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Sand are other sediments outside
of mud. 

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He's like, fuck you 
conglomerates, you can get out. 

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Elephants like mud. 
Also you can Google it. 

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Elephants can go to the beach. 
Sure there are pictures. 

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Some of them aren't AI. 
That water is cold sometimes 

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lakes still exist. 
The sea existed then and exist 

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today. 
Many dinosaurs bustles. 

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In fact, I would say most of 
them found in rocks that were 

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deposited, not in lakes or the 
sea. 

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Correct. 
Yeah, accurate. 

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Dinosaurs were small, sometimes 
no and. 

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Porky. 
Porcupines exist and porcupines 

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can fuck, so I don't think that 
Dick shredding was happening. 

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I also don't know how water was 
going to stop the Dick. 

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We're exactly that's a good 
point. 

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Well, if they're so buoyant, do 
they no longer need to mount 

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traditionally and they're just 
like free floating, like shape 

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of water and just like. 
Anyways, that's my review of 

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Brian J Ford summary of his own 
book, which I will refuse to 

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buy. 
I did try to look into him a 

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little bit. 
It appears he never got any 

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degree and that doesn't surprise
me. 

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Yeah. 
I mean, yeah, it doesn't. 

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You could. 
You can do it without, and you 

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can also not do it without. 
It's also a bit of a red flag. 

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I will say, even though this has
been a deeply scathing review 

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because this is ridiculous, if 
you want to write dumb shit like

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this, please do. 
I find it very fun. 

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Did he have a publisher? 
The fact that this is. 

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Did he find a publisher for the 
ship? 

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But we can't find a publisher 
for our ship. 

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By the way, publishers take 
weird and dead. 

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We're ready. 
Yeah, we've already written. 

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Yeah, Harper, Harper Collins, we
should probably go and 

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emotionally bully them into 
taking us on his. 

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Clock that only works for dudes.
That's true. 

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That's true. 
But yeah, you should still 

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publish it. 
I will still think it's funny. 

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And I do still think this is 
funny. 

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I just also think that Brian G 
Ford may have never left 

231
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,480
whatever tiny bubble he lives in
in England. 

232
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,720
Must be a place with no lakes. 
No lakes. 

233
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,760
I've heard that there are no 
just box. 

234
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,520
All of them are hot. 
Just hot box. 

235
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,200
That's true. 
Were dinosaurs able to fucking 

236
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,360
bogs or wear bogs out of the 
question too? 

237
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,040
It's just like, OK, so and also 
we're going to talk about, you 

238
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,080
know, like the result of 
fucking, which is offspring 

239
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,400
sometimes. 
And what? 

240
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,200
So you laid your aqueous eggs. 
Like are these underwater eggs? 

241
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,720
Like did they just throw their 
sad bodies like a fucking seal 

242
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,520
off land to like lay some eggs 
and then just slowly swap, swap,

243
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,280
swap back into the water and 
then just like wave at them from

244
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,240
the shore? 
Like how did they reproduce? 

245
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:16,160
I mean just sea turtle. 
Sea turtle. 

246
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:17,320
Good luck. 
It's just. 

247
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,960
Sauropod. 
It's big legs can't support its 

248
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,480
bodies. 
Yeah, it's Latin for bad mother 

249
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,920
lizard. 
I want bad mother lizard. 

250
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,320
Fuck Maya. 
Sorry, I thought. 

251
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:39,240
Bad Mommy. 
Yeah, so today's episode is all 

252
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,600
about sex, specifically dinosaur
sex. 

253
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,520
We're going to be talking about 
some possible ways in which they

254
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,080
could have done it. 
We're going to talk about some, 

255
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,320
you know, anatomical conditions 
and precursors. 

256
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,680
And I had to Google Scholar 
search dinosaur penis. 

257
00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,040
So that's going to be a real big
theme today. 

258
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,080
Come on, you enjoyed that? 
I did. 

259
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,800
It was funny. 
And yeah, we're going to be 

260
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,760
talking a lot about sex. 
We're also going to be talking 

261
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,920
about sex as in like biological 
sex. 

262
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,120
How do you tell sex apart? 
We do want to say up top that, 

263
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,080
well, we're going to be talking 
about this as a male, female 

264
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,920
dichotomy. 
There are more sexes, and of 

265
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,760
course, more genders than that. 
But we're going to be talking 

266
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,840
about male versus female and 
whether you can or cannot tell 

267
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:22,760
them apart. 
Hint hint. 

268
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,080
Spoiler alert, can't. 
Nope. 

269
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,360
Not a source that usually. 
Yeah. 

270
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:36,280
So that leads me to your 
favorite word in the whole realm

271
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,320
of paleontology. 
This really was like, we really 

272
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:39,840
just. 
Had. 

273
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,960
From an episode around this word
and try to shoehorn other things

274
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,680
in but yeah, tell me tell me 
this word Amy and tell me how 

275
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,120
many different ways it's oh, 
she's envisioning shoehorning it

276
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,560
into this because. 
That's what that one paper was 

277
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,880
talking about with the back you 
love was like, it's a shoehorn 

278
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,880
into the vagina. 
So you just like here we are 

279
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:02,840
just. 
Get her in there. 

280
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,200
Scoop her out. 
Oh, my God, yes. 

281
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,000
Drum roll, please. 
This is going to be a cloaca 

282
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:17,080
party up in here. 
Yeah, I'm actually surprised 

283
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:18,480
that we didn't talk about this 
one. 

284
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,920
With exceptional preservation. 
And like the butthole sturgeon, 

285
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,680
granted, that needed its own 
space. 

286
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,680
This specimen has been on our 
mind a lot. 

287
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,760
We do have. 
Our mind. 

288
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:38,240
The Royal Hour. 
Yeah, OK. 

289
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,880
And it is all about, again, 
amazing preservation in dinosaur

290
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,640
where we actually got the cloaca
preserved. 

291
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,880
I mean, it's one of from my 
reading, it's like the best, at 

292
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,920
least I think we've had other 
ones where it's like a hint are 

293
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,960
partial, but this is like full 
blown soft tissue preservation 

294
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,280
and impressions. 
And they can straight up see the

295
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,640
cloaca, which is the one hole, 
right? 

296
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,200
The one hole that contains all 
the other holes that dinosaurs 

297
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,000
have a lot of reptiles, fish 
like a lot of things not. 

298
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,880
Me. 
I'm sure there's a surgery for 

299
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,520
that, Amy. 
I know I've been watching this 

300
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,400
show about like. 
If you have a baby badly enough,

301
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,320
don't you just get one anyway? 
Yeah, well that's what I was 

302
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,600
going to say is I've been 
watching this show on teen 

303
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,760
pregnancy because that's how I 
spend my time. 

304
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,720
And this one poor young lady on 
there has to have AC section 

305
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,240
because she was born with her 
butt hole too close to her vag. 

306
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,760
So if she gave birth naturally, 
it was just going to just be 1 

307
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,560
hole. 
I know I was like, how much are 

308
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,840
they paying you? 
I hope they're paying you a lot 

309
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,360
of money to tell everybody about
your too close. 

310
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,600
And I'm also like too close. 
They're already pretty, they're 

311
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,480
pretty neighborly. 
So that's true. 

312
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,560
I. 
Got the margin of error. 

313
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,360
It's like not a lot. 
So this poor, poor child who was

314
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:01,600
a child we. 
Just have a child. 

315
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,240
Maybe that's the problem is that
nobody, no gynecologist, has 

316
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,800
ever told us that we also have 
this. 

317
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,760
Yeah, maybe we do. 
Well, I had a baby. 

318
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,319
I would have assumed someone who
looked except me down there, 

319
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:16,200
which was many people like, 
would have been like, heads up, 

320
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,359
you're about to. 
I'm so. 

321
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:24,800
Sorry are so close, Amy. 
I am so sorry. 

322
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,520
I, I like want to give more 
info, but I know that that's 

323
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:28,960
wrong. 
I'm not going to do it. 

324
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,480
I'm not going to go there with 
my own stories of those things. 

325
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,360
Anyway, cloacas, that's what 
dinosaurs had. 

326
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,880
So there's the Setakosaurus 
specimen from China, from the 

327
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:40,800
Jay Hall deposits that we've 
talked about before. 

328
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,400
Again, exceptional preservation,
and it has a beautifully 

329
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,600
preserved cloaca. 
So you can scroll to your first 

330
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,120
picture there and get a view. 
The lower one kind of shows the 

331
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,640
specimen itself, and then you 
can see the up close shot. 

332
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,160
So it's a Cetecosaurus. 
Again, this is like a ceratopsy 

333
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:02,080
and so like a Triceratops 
relative, but different that is 

334
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,400
is known from like China and 
Mongolia from the Cretaceous and

335
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,760
this one has do you want to 
describe, you want to describe 

336
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,280
this cloaca? 
OK, I see two images. 

337
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,000
Here we've got the phylogeny of 
cloacas which. 

338
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,080
Yes, that's my favorite. 
That's why I included it, yeah. 

339
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,200
Oh my God, it's just, it looks. 
God, there's definitely like 

340
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,800
this is an art form. 
Yeah, they I'm going to read you

341
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,520
the quote about how they how 
they study. 

342
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,840
So many of them. 
Chloe goes like frowny faces and

343
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,160
some are smiley faces. 
Oh my God, you are using some of

344
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,360
the exact terminology that the 
author uses. 

345
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:40,320
Really. 
I am not even kidding. 

346
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,800
I am so excited to read this to 
you now because yeah, some of 

347
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,000
them are like what? 
And some of them are like on a 

348
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,680
big old mustache. 
And then some are like hey. 

349
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,160
And then some are like. 
So we're like. 

350
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,280
Yeah, So what I'm looking at is 
I'm looking at a phylogenetic 

351
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,280
tree with some beautifully 
rendered grayscale outlines of 

352
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,520
things like monotremes, forgot 
they had cloacas, I did too. 

353
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,600
Turtles, crocodilians, 
Tatakosaurus birds, and then 

354
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,640
what look like these? 
Like I can't tell if they are 

355
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,600
real images or if these are like
lovingly rendered grayscale 

356
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:19,880
drawings. 
They look like. 

357
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,160
Correct. 
I believe that. 

358
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,560
That's kind of like the art 
style that I'm kind of getting 

359
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,920
the vibe of. 
Never ending staircase. 

360
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,160
Cloaks just, yeah. 
And just like really close up on

361
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,400
the cloak, really tight, like 
really fine zoom lens on these 

362
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,600
smiling mouths. 
You're right, the Psychosaurus 

363
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:40,960
really does look like a 
mustache. 

364
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,480
That's so does the monotrem. 
Monotrem looks like a Russian 

365
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,520
hat on top of the cloaca. 
Oh my God, the God if I didn't 

366
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,400
already love monotremes, which 
are mammals. 

367
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,400
Those are platypus and kidneys, 
y'all They have. 

368
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,000
Cloaca is another reason to 
love, love, love, love the 

369
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,080
marsup. 
Nope, Nope. 

370
00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,480
Mono dreams. 
That's the right word. 

371
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,000
So yeah, this is this is this 
incredible fossil. 

372
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,440
And they were able to analyze it
very, very well to literally get

373
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,320
the shape and morphology of the 
cloaca. 

374
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,560
And I want you to notice that in
the middle pictures that have 

375
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,480
the scale bar in the three 
different images, there's a 

376
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,800
middle one. 
And if you look closely, there's

377
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,000
a little orange blurry part. 
Do you see what it says? 

378
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,000
Yeah, this guy was found. 
With or this Sotakosaurus, they 

379
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,280
do not know it's sex. 
Mid poop was found with a copper

380
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,640
light just so a fossil turd. 
Just like hanging out. 

381
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,560
They're not. 
Nothing like a dude I think. 

382
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:37,880
I don't care if they know the 
sex. 

383
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,880
That's a dude. 
It died pooping. 

384
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,080
It's a dude. 
But what if it just had a poop 

385
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,440
like right there and compression
from fossilization squeezed it 

386
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,880
out still? 
No, Lady Sotakosaurus was never 

387
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,400
do Sekaka. 
They would never do that. 

388
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,680
That's a dude. 
I stand by it with my whole PhD.

389
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,240
You've heard it here first, 
everybody. 

390
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,160
We have officially determined 
the ways to sex a dinosaur from 

391
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:08,200
just the poop of a dinosaur. 
They've got a like a lingering 

392
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,440
dingleberry that's. 
True, they have a dingleberry. 

393
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,920
I mean again, talk about 
embarrassing. 

394
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,600
So embarrassing like in deep 
time. 

395
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,160
So I just really the the 
conclusion was like, we wanted 

396
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,120
to include this as like, OK, so 
we have a cloaca which would 

397
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,800
include the genitals as well as 
the butt stuff. 

398
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:31,040
So can we get an idea of the sex
of this dinosaur from this 

399
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,800
cloaca? 
No, we can't. 

400
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,440
But what they did, oh man, this 
first author, I mean a friggin 

401
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,360
hilarious. 
So this is the quote, though 

402
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:44,360
it's described in this way. 
A cloaca is quote more than just

403
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,440
a butt hole, says Vinter. 
It's the Swiss Army knife of 

404
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,760
back ends. 
For help with their description,

405
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,840
Vinter said, the study authors 
look to the wide-ranging cloaca 

406
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,640
of other land dwelling 
vertebrates. 

407
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,120
Some, like those belonging to 
turtles, look like a wizened, 

408
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,400
puckered grin. 
The cloaca of birds or present 

409
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,800
day dinosaurs look kind of like 
a cyst that needs to be popped, 

410
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,240
he explains, while the cloaca of
crocodile are covered in 

411
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,840
distinctive scales, forming a 
sort of raised lobe with a slit 

412
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,640
in the middle. 
Isn't that beautiful? 

413
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:17,520
They. 
Also all look like chloroplasts 

414
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,040
with guard cells. 
Yeah, sure. 

415
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,640
Niche biology reference. 
It's, I mean, I've seen the 

416
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,000
snake one before for sure. 
I've been a cloaca Don by a 

417
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,240
snake because it's both their 
pee and their poop at once. 

418
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:34,760
I know what you mean, but I 
don't think that that's not 

419
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,200
acceptable verb at all. 
Yeah, so cloacas there, we do 

420
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,920
have a fossilized one from a 
dinosaur, so we're like one step

421
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,840
closer, but all that junk is 
hidden up in there. 

422
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,520
So again, the paper was not able
to discern the actual biological

423
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,680
sex of of this Thetakosaurus of 
this dinosaur. 

424
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,760
So cloaca is so far the cloaca 
is out as an A way to be able to

425
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,040
investigate the sex of 
dinosaurs. 

426
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,240
And but it's still incredibly 
fun. 

427
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,680
And I yeah, I had a little poop 
coming out. 

428
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:03,720
It's beautiful. 
Wow. 

429
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:07,280
So what, what kind of stuff is 
all up in a cloaca? 

430
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,640
I mean, besides the fact that 
we've already spoiled that, but.

431
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,880
Yeah, so I mean anything, as you
say, could be inside a cloaca. 

432
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:20,040
So my job was to go through the 
nightmare Google search of just 

433
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,880
all Dicks that could be 
potentially hidden up in there. 

434
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,720
To my knowledge, most vaginal 
canals with the exception of the

435
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,920
hyena are internal. 
So inside of a cloaca is 

436
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,360
probably either in any or it's a
penis of some kind. 

437
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,000
So let me tell you all about 
Dicks. 

438
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,880
Woohoo. 
Hey, this episode you get the 

439
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,200
Dicks. 
Yay. 

440
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,280
That's right. 
And they're dinosaur Dicks. 

441
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,240
Wow. 
And actually I am gonna start 

442
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,720
this off with a picture, a 
screenshot I took during an 

443
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,560
image search. 
And it's the first image on the 

444
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,920
screenshot that I sent to you 
and it has nothing to do with, 

445
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:02,960
but I thought it was really 
funny. 

446
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,280
Oh. 
My gosh, that's so funny. 

447
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,920
OK, so I'm looking at this 
little like thumbnail really of 

448
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,040
a image and it's like it looks 
like it might be a lake, 

449
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,120
probably a river. 
Those don't exist, yeah. 

450
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,880
And it is like it's a crocodile 
or alligator or whatever on its 

451
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,720
back, right? 
So opposite of how you would 

452
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,080
think you would see it. 
So belly up and it's just got an

453
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,760
engorged penis. 
It is notable. 

454
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,120
It looks like 1/3 limb. 
I think it's dead. 

455
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,480
Yeah, it's not just like that. 
Horny. 

456
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,920
I don't know. 
I don't think it's like humping 

457
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,240
the sky, like it looks kind of 
bloated. 

458
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,360
But yeah, the the title on this,
this was a thumbnail I found 

459
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:51,680
while Googling alligator penis. 
It was a fun week and it says 

460
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,400
how do alligator erections work?
And I'm fairly certain it's just

461
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,520
a dead upside down alligator 
that they picked the. 

462
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,400
Thumbnail, that's how had a very
work. 

463
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,720
So it's just not erect, it's 
bloated. 

464
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:09,880
Erect and bloated, Yeah. 
So let me tell you about penis 

465
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,560
types. 
Good. 

466
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,520
So penises, I had to look up the
word intermittent because 

467
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,920
everybody calls them an 
intermittent phallus when they 

468
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,920
want to be fancy. 
And the word intermittent does 

469
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,720
not mean it's here. 
Sometimes it's not there 

470
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,800
sometimes, which is kind of what
I was thinking. 

471
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,280
That's intermittent. 
Intermittent means I put it 

472
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,840
inside of the other thing. 
So it's a phallus that goes 

473
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,120
inside. 
And that is important because 

474
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,040
some of the animals we are 
talking about today do not have 

475
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,800
necessarily a phallus. 
They they either have just just 

476
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,440
like a flat surface and you 
smush them together like 2 

477
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,480
Barbie dolls and that's how you 
make babies. 

478
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,960
We were all right as children. 
We're like this is how it works 

479
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,320
this. 
Is how it works or you might 

480
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,000
have like a really, really small
one or you might have a penis. 

481
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,640
So for the as far as animals 
that are related to dinosaurs or

482
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,080
just for whatever reason 
included, mammals are not very 

483
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,640
closely related to dinosaurs, 
but all of these papers include 

484
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:12,640
them. 
Interesting. 

485
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,000
All want to compare them, I 
guess, to mammals. 

486
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,040
We've got animals that have like
a phallus that could be 

487
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,560
external. 
Sometimes it's internal and it 

488
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,640
comes out. 
OK, OK, great. 

489
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,360
Yeah. 
Shape of Water open, then come 

490
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,480
out. 
Yep, Yep, Yep. 

491
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,440
Sometimes it's external all the 
time, but for animals that have 

492
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,680
the presence of a Dick, so just 
have a Dick in general, 

493
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,920
regardless of whether it's a 
second box or not. 

494
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:45,640
Yeah, you've got mammals, of 
course, some birds, and that 

495
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,840
bird includes Paliac Nathans, 
which are a really early type of

496
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,520
bird, or waterfowl. 
So ducks. 

497
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,520
Ducks have penis. 
Notoriously weird penises. 

498
00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,240
Yep, crocodiles and turtles and 
they all have what this paper 

499
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,800
was calling a single midline 
penis, which I do think means 

500
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,840
that it is mid and I am just 
trying to shoehorn in the fact 

501
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,800
that I know what that word means
even though I am old so. 

502
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,320
I I don't I I'm. 
All I heard was shoehorn again. 

503
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,840
Anyways, they have a mid like 
they have a single penis, and 

504
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,000
that only becomes relevant when 
you realize that other animals 

505
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,040
have two. 
So that leads me to the hemi 

506
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:34,280
penis or the paired lateral hemi
penis of squamates, which 

507
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,240
includes lizards and snakes. 
So they have two. 

508
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,600
It's not like it's one and it 
comes out and it's forked. 

509
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,960
That's the nightmare Dick of an 
echidna. 

510
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,200
That's a different thing. 
Oh yes, multiple forks. 

511
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,920
Yes, yeah, multiple forks. 
Don't Google that. 

512
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,680
Don't Google it. 
Or do not. 

513
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,280
But you'll never be able to get 
it out of your brain. 

514
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,240
It will. 
It's like the ring. 

515
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,480
She sees. 
It's it's gonna come for you. 

516
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,200
A lot of hair. 
I can't believe I just said 

517
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:09,120
that. 
Anyway, so the paper, the papers

518
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,600
that are written on this stuff 
are very, very funny because 

519
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,640
it's everybody trying to be so 
professional with like the names

520
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,760
of their, their fucking weird 
Dick papers. 

521
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,760
And the one of the papers that I
pulled the most information on 

522
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,520
Dicks from is remarkably an 
animal that's not particularly 

523
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,480
closely related to dinosaurs. 
So dinosaurs, their descendants 

524
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,400
are birds and they share a 
common ancestors with 

525
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,840
crocodiles, so or crocodilians. 
So like crocodiles and birds are

526
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,600
usually the things that you're 
looking at if you want to be 

527
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,800
like, I wish to envision 
arcosaur Dick looks like yeah, 

528
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,200
Arcosaurus. 
So the title of this paper is 

529
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,840
Resurrecting embryos of the 
tuatara to resolve vertebrate 

530
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,160
phallus evolution. 
I love the use of resurrection 

531
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720
there. 
I mean resurrection B erection. 

532
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,360
Like come on, finish 
resurrection. 

533
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:07,640
Erection Ironically, tuataras no
erection Tuataras no penis. 

534
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,520
Wait, So what? 
So they don't have the. 

535
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,800
Tuatara. 
Yeah, the tuatara does not have 

536
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,760
a Dick. 
Tuataras are Barbie dolls, just 

537
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,520
like most birds. 
Actually, they just and. 

538
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,680
They just bump and grind. 
They just bump and grind and one

539
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,040
of the things that they wanted 
to figure out in this particular

540
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,640
paper is they wanted to know, 
OK, well did the Dick not was 

541
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,280
was Dick not there at the. 
Beginning, I see, 

542
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,600
Developmentally, when did the 
Dick go away? 

543
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,320
Or was it ever there? 
OK, Yeah. 

544
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,280
Yeah. 
And because they wanted to know 

545
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,400
then, well, you know, 
evolutionarily a lot of times 

546
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,880
you want to look at babies 
because sometimes babies have 

547
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,840
characteristics that are more 
ancestral. 

548
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,000
And so they looked at the 
embryos of the tuatara, which 

549
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,920
tuatara are super, super, super,
super protected. 

550
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:55,720
They're only found in New 
Zealand. 

551
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,600
They are culturally very 
important. 

552
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,560
And also, they're just, they're 
yeah, I don't think that they're

553
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,320
technically endangered anymore. 
But regardless, pretty hard to 

554
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,400
get your hands on some tuatara 
embryos. 

555
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,920
So the reason they had to 
resurrect these embryos is they 

556
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,200
got embryos that had been 
collected in 1896. 

557
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,760
What? 
What it just in formaldehyde for

558
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,400
like that entire time? 
Is there anything to resurrect? 

559
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,080
Isn't that just like a sad shell
of what was? 

560
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,000
I think they just, you know, put
more liquid in them or something

561
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,240
so they could see if there was 
is a boner. 

562
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:35,560
And sure enough, embryos of the 
tuatara do have a very small 

563
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,680
like penis thing. 
I just want to. 

564
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,280
Here's when they're adults. 
I have to make an obnoxious 

565
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,480
point of the importance of 
preserving scientific 

566
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,000
collections in perpetuity for 
good things. 

567
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,520
Like did a tuatara have a Dick? 
Come on. 

568
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,440
Yeah, this is important, people.
Manage your data and your 

569
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,120
collections. 
Well. 

570
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,840
Anyway, off my off my pulpit. 
Yeah, so to Atara, they don't 

571
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,160
currently have decks, but it 
seems as though they lost them. 

572
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,120
But the question, of course is 
did birds lose them? 

573
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,040
Because most birds don't have 
them. 

574
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,000
Ducks do have them and they are 
horrifying corkscrews that they 

575
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,840
can inflate in like under 60 
seconds. 

576
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:17,760
And then they fall off. 
What? 

577
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,840
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that part 
of the process is like after 

578
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,360
they've they're done it just 
like falls off. 

579
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,560
Maybe I'm. 
Totally, it's like a 1 and I 

580
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,280
don't think it's a one and done 
but they do drink their gonads 

581
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,320
outside of the mating season. 
I think that might be what 

582
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,200
you're referring to. 
Maybe that's what I'm. 

583
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,120
OK, so the Schrodinger's Dick of
ducks. 

584
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,280
They match up to a Corkscrew 
shaped vagina in ducks. 

585
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,400
There's a whole lot of horror 
Show goes on like it sounds 

586
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,200
sounds like it's funny, but it's
also. 

587
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,360
It's also like. 
A defense mechanism on the 

588
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,480
behalf of the female duck. 
So, you know, you can fill in 

589
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,240
the blank there. 
But they do shrink. 

590
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,280
I think all birds shrink their 
gonads. 

591
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,600
They're like sex bits when 
they're not mating because it's 

592
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,320
heavy and it weighs them down. 
And birds want to be light 

593
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,600
because they want to fly. 
Although I wonder if birds, like

594
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,000
chickens, do less shrinking than
other animals. 

595
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,640
I mean, I imagine chickens do 
because we've bred them to have 

596
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,360
eggs all the time, but. 
Yeah, that's true. 

597
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,640
All right, so some birds have 
Dicks. 

598
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,840
Alligators do have Dicks. 
I did read a whole paper about 

599
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,120
alligator Dicks and I learned 
that a someone not only like 

600
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,600
spent a lot of time dissecting 
alligator Dicks, They did so 

601
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,360
because at some point someone 
noticed, hey, that alligator 

602
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,120
penis doesn't change shape when 
it gets erect. 

603
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,160
And I don't know how you noticed
that or who noticed that or who 

604
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,720
reported that they noticed that 
because that would be a fact 

605
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,680
that I would be embarrassed to 
say if I noticed. 

606
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,760
But yeah, alligator Dicks don't 
inflate, not like regular 

607
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,480
penises. 
And that was how it described it

608
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,400
every single time. 
So now I and I, I invite you 

609
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,560
all, any time that you think 
about penises, I want you to 

610
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,440
think about them as balloons 
because they are fucking 

611
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,120
inflating with blood unless they
are an alligator. 

612
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,960
Or fibro elastic versus our 
vascular, the vascular Dicks 

613
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,280
inflate with blood, with blood, 
it's a balloon of blood, 

614
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,400
balloons of blood. 
There's, there's multiple tubes,

615
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,240
yes. 
And it's not that alligators 

616
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,280
don't like, have blood going 
through their Dick when they get

617
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,240
an erection. 
I mean, they, you know, it's 

618
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,680
muscles that are usually pulling
it out of the sheath so that out

619
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,400
of the cloaca so that they can 
have sex. 

620
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,000
It's that they have too much 
collagen in their Dicks. 

621
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,360
They literally can't expand. 
And I just kept thinking about 

622
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,480
it like lip filler. 
Like these are some. 

623
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,680
Over over filled Dicks that 
cannot expand. 

624
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,000
But yeah, they don't inflate. 
They can hurt. 

625
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Yes, this is my Dick face. 
She's making a she's making what

626
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,880
I am assuming is a lip filler 
face, but it does just sound 

627
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,160
like she's gagging herself. 
Yeah. 

628
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,520
Also this paper very carefully 
explained that not all it's not 

629
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,440
just the number of penises that 
sets different animals apart. 

630
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,560
It's how does your Dick open? 
Because it turns out not a 

631
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,400
universal thing. 
So mammals, we have a closed off

632
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,199
urethral tube except for when 
some of us are embryos. 

633
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:24,239
So some species of mammals, 
including us and rabbits have a 

634
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,639
groove when we are embryos. 
So it actually closes up like 

635
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,239
before you're born. 
I'm sure some people it doesn't 

636
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,520
close up, but you know, that's. 
Wait for like females because or

637
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:39,000
or like for males, for males. 
Yeah, so the penis is a tube. 

638
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,400
The sperm comes out the middle 
like a nasty cream filled 

639
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,199
doughnut. 
EW EW EW, gross. 

640
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,159
I've never seen one. 
I wouldn't know that's right 

641
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,400
tell you out of babies without 
ever seeing a male baby. 

642
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,520
A little baby boy never seen a 
penis. 

643
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,320
I refuse to change the diaper. 
Just kidding, it would be. 

644
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,800
All in the dark. 
Yeah. 

645
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,040
So even though mammals, we think
of it, you know, like it's a 

646
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,440
tube, but it turns out it's 
actually not a tube in birds. 

647
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,120
It's not a tube in crocodilians,
not a tube in turtles. 

648
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,000
It's a groove on the top of the 
penis or on the ventral side of 

649
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,320
the penis. 
So on the bottom of the penis, 

650
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,560
although I didn't look into it, 
but ducks have a Corkscrew 

651
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,240
shaped penis. 
And if it's a groove, like, I 

652
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,840
just, I mean, I guess it stays 
on the ventral side the whole 

653
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,160
time. 
They're not tying it into a 

654
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,360
Figure 8 knot. 
But like, it just seems like 

655
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,280
that would be more complicated. 
But yeah, we also have grooves 

656
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,160
in an embryo stage. 
Wow. 

657
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,480
Well, yeah, I mean, development 
is fascinating. 

658
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,520
The gubernacula in particular, 
is just like, just a 

659
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,640
fascinating, fascinating story. 
Gross. 

660
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,960
So those are your your Dick. 
Options. 

661
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,760
Those are our options. 
And the the truth of the matter 

662
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:57,320
is we do not know what option we
see in dinosaurs now, given the 

663
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,960
fact that birds have both a 
Barbie doll blank face kiss kind

664
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,880
of style. 
It's called a cloacal kiss. 

665
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,600
That's why I call it a kiss, 
where they just smush, smush, 

666
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,680
smush and then they're done. 
But birds also have things like 

667
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,040
ducks, where they actually have 
an external penis, whether or 

668
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,560
not they lose it. 
I don't think it falls off. 

669
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:17,800
Guys. 
Don't listen to me. 

670
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,600
I think people. 
See it just? 

671
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,080
I think people just see the 
little curly fry hanging out the

672
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,400
back end and they assume it is 
in that process of falling off, 

673
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,600
but it just means it's out of 
the cloaca. 

674
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,920
So I think I'm, I think I'm 
super wrong. 

675
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,560
I don't want to perpetuate 
fucking just like does. 

676
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,680
Like fake news. 
They hold on to their creepy 

677
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,040
little curlicue cocks for the 
next season. 

678
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,960
Because birds have different 
styles of Dicks, it kind of 

679
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,560
stands to reason that probably 
dinosaurs didn't just have one 

680
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,400
one type, but also hemi pains 
where you have two. 

681
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,160
Just so you are aware, they 
don't use them at the same time.

682
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,600
They're not like shoving them 
both in there. 

683
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,560
They dip in with one or the 
other so they use them 

684
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,120
alternately alternately. 
Which makes slightly more sense 

685
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,640
when you unfortunately Google 
pictures of lizards mating cuz 

686
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,760
they have to comment at each 
other from the side so it makes 

687
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,280
sense that they're. 
Not trying to get right in 

688
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,760
there. 
Right side, left side, yeah. 

689
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,200
Do you favor your right side? 
Do you favor your left side? 

690
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Wow. 
NORDO has done a research 

691
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,800
project on that. 
Yeah, that's weird. 

692
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,320
So dinosaurs probably didn't 
have hemi pens. 

693
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,480
They probably had a single 
midlined penis. 

694
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,560
It probably had a ventral 
groove. 

695
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,520
That ventral groove, by the way,
is called the sulcus 

696
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,120
spermaticus. 
Yeah, sounds about right. 

697
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,400
And they may have had no penis 
at all. 

698
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,800
They may have. 
That doesn't mean they had 

699
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,080
internal fertilization, but they
may have done things more like 

700
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,400
the cloacal kiss style that you 
see in birds. 

701
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,440
Where? 
So they really don't even. 

702
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,120
Have it all shoved together. 
They just, they're just close 

703
00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,080
together. 
But how? 

704
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,520
What delivers the sperm even to 
the flat, sad cloacus surface? 

705
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:09,960
Just like a a splooge hole. 
Lovely, lovely, lovely. 

706
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,600
Also just like another note of 
like, yeah, you just, like rub 

707
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,000
it near each other and you get 
pregnant. 

708
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,240
That's horrifying. 
It's like too. 

709
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,400
That's too easy. 
It's, I mean, I have chickens 

710
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,080
and I can say that, you know, 
they're, they're not like 

711
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,080
rubbing each other's faces with 
sperm, you know, like it, it's a

712
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,560
cloacal kiss. 
It's cloaca to cloaca. 

713
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,960
It's like you know you. 
Don't want to waste that good 

714
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,520
seed. 
God, I can never look my rooster

715
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,200
in the eyes again now. 
You have a rooster, so you have 

716
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,720
fertilized eggs, steak. 
Yeah, do you not remember the 

717
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:44,880
whole thing where Logan 
conveniently forgot it was his 

718
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,200
job to pick up eggs and so now 
we have like 5 fucking Roosters 

719
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,200
because those bitches multiply. 
Yeah, they they tend to do that.

720
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,560
That makes sense. 
Yeah. 

721
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:55,680
Yeah. 
MMM. 

722
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,200
Delicious. 
Yeah, that's Chloe. 

723
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,640
Ankle kiss. 
OK, I like a Chloe ankle kiss 

724
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,560
though. 
It's cute. 

725
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,760
Which one out of all of these, 
which is the easiest in our 

726
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,000
lake? 
Which one is most lake centric? 

727
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,760
I mean, if you're in a lake, so.
You would need. 

728
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,080
I would get. 
Into eggs, but. 

729
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,240
I think you would need it to go 
inside because otherwise 

730
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,640
wouldn't all the splooge just go
into your lake? 

731
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:23,800
Yeah, but like, sometimes that's
fine. 

732
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,080
And they just. 
Like, like, that's how fish do 

733
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,560
it, because fish have like. 
Fish do it after they've. 

734
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:33,360
Been. 
Like after the female and then 

735
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,520
then then they just go crop dust
them. 

736
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,560
Yeah. 
And we do think that birds have 

737
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,840
or not birds. 
The dinosaurs have internal 

738
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,720
fertilization. 
So we don't think it was, you 

739
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:47,240
know, crop dusting, as you so 
kindly supplied a bunch of eggs,

740
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,960
especially since we do have 
fossilized dinosaur eggs and 

741
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,840
they do have shells. 
These are amniotes. 

742
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,800
They have extra shells. 
So I suspect probably they had 

743
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,320
some form of Dick, but I 
couldn't really speculate on the

744
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,560
exact shape. 
I'm sure it was horrifying. 

745
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,360
But Adam and Eve, if you want us
to speculate on that, Shea. 

746
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,200
You want to speculate? 
We will. 

747
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,280
You want to speculate about how 
much or how much collagen? 

748
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,000
Fucking Dick. 
We will give you citations to 

749
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,400
back up our design for your 
latest dildo. 

750
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:25,640
We can call it the sulcus. 
Sulcus. 

751
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,840
Spermaticus. 
Yeah, it's just going to be 

752
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,200
like, yeah, exactly. 
If, yeah, never mind. 

753
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,000
But yeah, just then we'll make 
an exception to this room. 

754
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,480
So that's that's what I have on 
dinosaur penises. 

755
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,840
Dinosaur penises and a dinosaur 
cloaca. 

756
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,160
What a magical journey. 
Maybe we'll finish it out on 

757
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,080
sexual dimorphism. 
How do we even know? 

758
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,560
Can we tell if they're? 
If a dinosaur, male or female, I

759
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,120
mean, no, the simple answer to 
that is no, no, Yeah. 

760
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,840
So, yeah, when I was thinking 
about this topic and whatnot 

761
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,200
we're going to talk about, and I
got assigned this, there's one 

762
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,120
thing that's my fault because I 
went to the conference and I 

763
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,160
heard the talk and I was like, 
got my eyes stuck because I 

764
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,960
rolled them so hard. 
And it was all, and it all comes

765
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,200
back down to sexual dimorphism. 
So I have to talk about that. 

766
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,800
What we're talking about is 
distinctions between the sexes 

767
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,800
in terms of like size or shape. 
Sometimes it's size, sometimes 

768
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,840
it's cranial ornamentation. 
Sometimes it's like a Peacock 

769
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,360
with the, you know, crazy 
fucking feathery ass, all that 

770
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,880
good stuff. 
And whether or not you can, you 

771
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,840
know, humans have sexual 
dimorphism. 

772
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,120
There is differences between the
size and shape of males and 

773
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,960
females. 
Males tend to be larger, females

774
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,480
tend to be smaller. 
I if you found my skeleton and 

775
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,200
the fossil record would probably
be interpreted as a man because 

776
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,440
I am giant sized. 
So I have made my peace with 

777
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,160
that. 
That's fine with me. 

778
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,920
Yeah. 
So sexual dimorphism is like, we

779
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,040
know that it's present in a shit
ton of birds. 

780
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,480
We know it's present. 
I think in like, I think maybe 

781
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,320
in some like crocodile alligator
things. 

782
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,800
We know that dinosaur relatives 
display sexual dimorphism. 

783
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,240
And man, oh man, do we want to 
be able to say a certain type of

784
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:17,240
dinosaur has sexual dimorphism 
and that you can tell males from

785
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:19,920
female. 
And unfortunately the data just 

786
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,400
does not back that up. 
But people keep. 

787
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,160
Fucking trying a dinosaur is a 
fucking baby. 

788
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,600
Well, you're going into why one 
of the things is a problem is 

789
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,840
like how on Earth. 
So this great paper that we're 

790
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,800
going to talk about South, 
sexual dimorphism in the fossil 

791
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,440
record is incredibly hard 
because dinosaurs like, oh, 

792
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,560
everyone wants to be like, yeah,
birds are dinosaurs and they 

793
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,280
are. 
But like it's different because 

794
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,560
they look very different and 
they act very different. 

795
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,040
So to be able to say like I can 
see how dinosaurs behave by 

796
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,040
watching birds is probably not 
true because birds are so 

797
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,560
derived. 
So we don't have any modern like

798
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:01,000
exact T Rex whatever running 
around to observe and see their 

799
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,560
population differences in what 
they do that. 

800
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,720
Is kind of like I can tell what 
a polycosaur acted like because 

801
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:11,200
I can see Steve, my neighbor. 
Like, right, Right. 

802
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,200
Yeah. 
That's a little bit further 

803
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,880
derived, but. 
Still, yeah, but I mean, still 

804
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,680
within this realm of kind of 
insanity with how this works. 

805
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,000
So it's really, really hard 
because mostly lack of a sample 

806
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,440
size, some species don't don't 
have this problem or a dance, 

807
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,680
but most, at least in dinosaurs,
really, really, really do. 

808
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,600
And also then on top of that, 
it's that there's so many other 

809
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,640
fucking things that could be 
contributing to this that it's 

810
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,480
not dimorphism at all. 
And that could be things like 

811
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,360
age, ontogeny, how it fucking 
grew up. 

812
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,280
Right. 
So we're like, you're saying we 

813
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,800
can't even decide if 
Nanotyrannus is a pygmy 

814
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,960
tyrannosaur or if it's a young T
Rex. 

815
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,240
OK, we can decide. 
People are just very loud. 

816
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,480
So it's like, and then you're 
trying to tell me the difference

817
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,440
between a female and a male T 
Rex when you can't even tell me 

818
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,520
a young versus old T Rex. 
So we can't control for ontogeny

819
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,840
because we don't usually have a 
great grasp on how old the 

820
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,440
individual is. 
There's this thing called 

821
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:16,040
variation within a species. 
It's pretty pronounced. 

822
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,080
We're all like. 
Like my whole dissertation. 

823
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,160
Yes. 
And so like, there I read in 

824
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,080
this paper that they're like, 
yeah, there have been claims 

825
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,280
with only two specimens that 
they've tried to draw 

826
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,320
conclusions about sexual 
dimorphism. 

827
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,520
And that is just bullshit. 
That's just garbage. 

828
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,040
It's garbage because it could 
just be individual variation. 

829
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:37,960
Then there's like tappanomic 
things. 

830
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,480
So what happens to that fossil 
between when it died and when it

831
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,320
was discovered? 
You know, they can dry out and 

832
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:47,840
like things can happen to them. 
Or like we talked about 

833
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,240
pathology. 
So it could just have like 

834
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,320
literal osteomyelitis and we 
might have interpreted as like 

835
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,120
that's a big robust male or big 
robust female. 

836
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,720
And you've done that in 
orientons, right? 

837
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,240
The royal. 
The royal? 

838
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,920
Me as in other paleontologist? 
Not me, yeah. 

839
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,480
No go geography another one. 
OK, so like you know, we see 

840
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,520
this in modern species. 
They can be in the exact same 

841
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,280
species, but there can be 
geographical variation within 

842
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,960
body size and also like like 
bears and all sorts of stuff 

843
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,000
that show this. 
And then what I also really 

844
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,000
appreciated was like 
stitigraphy. 

845
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,480
And I am get so frustrated with 
so many paleontologist who 

846
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,120
probably needed a more thorough 
geology background than they 

847
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:37,360
received, who love to just 
minimize where the different 

848
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,720
specimens are from in the rock 
layer and how they could be 

849
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:43,960
separated by like 10s of 
thousands if not millions of 

850
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,080
years. 
And you're trying to interpret 

851
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,880
them as male versus female when 
you're just seeing them at 

852
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:53,080
different temporal literate 
moments in Earth's history. 

853
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,120
I I have some issues with 
Triceratops for this. 

854
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,200
I am not convinced that the 
they're like, it's anagenesis 

855
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,680
between the two species. 
And, and I'm like, show me, like

856
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,600
I want to talk to a 
statickrapher and a 

857
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,440
sedimentologist about your 
interpretations before I just, 

858
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,920
I'm going to take that anyway. 
So like it's really, really 

859
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:11,520
hard. 
And I think a really fascinating

860
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,360
point from this paper was that 
so many papers in paleontology 

861
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,800
that go in being like, we're 
going to identify sexual 

862
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:24,280
dimorphism and dinosaurs go in 
with this assumption that there 

863
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,320
is sexual dimorphism. 
Therefore, when they find 

864
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,360
bimodal distribution or you see 
two different areas kind of pan 

865
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,280
out with your measurements, it 
is instantly and automatically 

866
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,520
assumed to be sexual dimorphism.
And not any of the other shit I 

867
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,680
just complained about because 
you can tell I'm upset about 

868
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,120
this stupid thing that doesn't 
concern my life at all. 

869
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,600
And it's annoying me because 
it's bad. 

870
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,800
And like people have tried to 
make claims about like the 

871
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,360
vertebral column spaces, the 
plate, the spacing between 

872
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,760
Stegosaurus plates like coddle 
the tail vertebrae that would 

873
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,160
have been then for used for 
mating displays. 

874
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,640
And it's like tiny sample sizes 
that do not hold up 

875
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,720
statistically. 
And again, are very just so kind

876
00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:12,640
of like, hey, if we it's just 
they're setting themselves up to

877
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,480
not really have they're not 
eliminating all of the 

878
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,160
possibilities, which a thorough 
scientific investigation should 

879
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,720
be able to eliminate everything 
and tell the food that they 

880
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:23,680
cannot eliminate. 
And then that's what I'm going 

881
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,560
to listen to. 
So you want to hear about some 

882
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,840
terrible examples. 
One in particular, I haven't 

883
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,680
thought about how I'm going to 
talk about this. 

884
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:41,520
So I went to a conference many 
moons ago and I witnessed IA 

885
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,960
talk and the the abstract is 
publicly available, so I don't 

886
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,400
feel weird talking about it. 
I'm not going to talk about 

887
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,320
anything that isn't in this 
abstract where they're talking 

888
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:55,520
about the neural spines of the 
tails of of hadrosaur dinosaurs,

889
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,400
specifically at Montosaurus, the
biggest of the hadrosaur 

890
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,640
dinosaurs. 
So the neural spine. 

891
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,520
So if you're thinking about a 
backbone, like all of the parts 

892
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,640
that stick up off the vertebra, 
that's those are the neural 

893
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,120
spines. 
Hopefully that is the fit. 

894
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:14,200
Anyway, it's the part facing up 
which is important because 

895
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:17,160
they're talking about 
pathological individuals that 

896
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,440
have breaks coming from what 
they're interpreting from the 

897
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,000
dorsal to ventral direction. 
So it's coming a force coming 

898
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,160
from above and hitting those the
top of the tail and breaking 

899
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:34,000
them in some way. 
And they are proposing that 

900
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,920
instead of it being caused by 
like a falling object, that 

901
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,720
these are mating injuries and 
that the males were pressing 

902
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:46,120
down on the females dorsal and 
coddle neural spines while 

903
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:52,040
mounting so much so that they 
broke their fucking bones. 

904
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,560
And like this one specimen that 
they talk about, which is that 

905
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,320
DM and S is like a chunk missing
from them. 

906
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:02,600
So I really like they are 
literally saying that that all 

907
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,280
of the ones with pathologies are
female and all of the other ones

908
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,400
are male. 
And this goes right back to what

909
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,840
we were just talking about, 
which is if you go in saying if 

910
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,760
I find variation, it's must be 
sexual dimorphism. 

911
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,080
Well, they they did it, they 
found variation. 

912
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,360
But I am obviously you can tell 
that I think it's a load of 

913
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,320
bullshit for a ton of reasons 
and it has never been published.

914
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,960
It's been many years. 
So I kind of hope that the 

915
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,000
cultural environment and maybe 
some peer review moments for 

916
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,920
dinosaur folks put this back 
into its sad little idea cage 

917
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,080
where it came from. 
But this is the kind of stuff 

918
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,600
that comes out really often in 
dinosaur paleontology is looking

919
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,400
at, yeah, being like, oh, well, 
there's bimodality. 

920
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,160
So we can see two different 
distributions. 

921
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:50,560
We can just see two different 
groups. 

922
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:52,360
Therefore, it must be male and 
female. 

923
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,840
I just want to say that that's 
honestly a step forward. 

924
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,640
Like I know that it's kind of 
annoying and like people are 

925
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,520
still doing it wrong, but at 
least we are considering that 

926
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,320
dimorphism exists and not just 
naming them as new species. 

927
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,040
That's true. 
A good thing and also what I 

928
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,360
have seen and what Jordan Mallon
has seen, although I don't think

929
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,960
he actually would put it in the 
paper because he felt too bad 

930
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,280
about it, but he did mention it 
at a talk. 

931
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,960
Is circular logic in how we 
define sexual dimorphism. 

932
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:28,200
So regardless of whether you 
decide that the two groups 

933
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,640
statistically that you see are 
male and female, if they are two

934
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,040
different species, if they're 
the same species separated by 

935
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:38,720
time or space or whatever, the 
important thing is how you 

936
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:41,680
discern that there are two 
groups. 

937
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,520
And what he mentioned in that 
talk and what I have seen in 

938
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,360
other talks is sometimes the way
that you decide that there are 

939
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,320
two groups is you say, well, 
this one is bigger and this one 

940
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,880
is smaller. 
And if you use any form of 

941
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,400
statistics to test if those are 
different, they always come back

942
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,960
as different because you've 
taken a single distribution of 

943
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,720
data, you've cut it in half and 
you've said, are these two 

944
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:11,080
halves different? 
And of course they are. 

945
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:16,680
If they weren't, you didn't cut 
them in half correctly, right? 

946
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,640
Right. 
Like, and I've, I've actually 

947
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:23,560
seen this in recent papers, not 
on dimorphism, but on species, 

948
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,680
just saying, well, that species 
is bigger, that species is 

949
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,480
smaller. 
I did a tea test. 

950
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,880
They came back as different. 
They are different species. 

951
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:36,480
No, you said it's would be like 
if we lined up every human and 

952
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,320
we said anybody who is above 510
is a tall person. 

953
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:44,040
And then you did at Test. 
So the T test said yes, you have

954
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,520
only people above 510 on the 
left hand side and you have only

955
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,520
people below 510 on the right 
hand side. 

956
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:52,000
That doesn't mean we're two 
different species, just means 

957
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:53,800
that you divided us in half 
correctly. 

958
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,960
So I'm glad that we have moved 
forward. 

959
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,640
Yep, from that. 
Oh, God. 

960
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:01,080
I mean, I hope so. 
But that reminds me of a paper I

961
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,680
had to read in Graduate School 
by a very renowned 

962
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,920
paleontologist who I whatever 
about some extinct fossil 

963
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:09,720
primates. 
And it was exactly that. 

964
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:12,200
The paper was just like, well, 
we determined that the males 

965
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:13,480
were the one with bigger 
canines. 

966
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,120
And then when we looked at the 
size of the canines, we found 

967
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,240
that there were a group with 
bigger canines and they're the 

968
00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:20,320
males. 
And I was just like, what? 

969
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:21,880
What? 
Wait, wait, what? 

970
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,240
I was just like, but they're 
moderate. 

971
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:26,800
Their closest modern relatives 
actually don't show that. 

972
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,480
You know, I was just like, yeah,
so this one is, I think just 

973
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,600
like a more recent kind of 
thing. 

974
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,280
And it's been nicknamed the 
instead of the duck bills. 

975
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:43,040
The fuck bills about this idea 
that these Edmonisaurus. 

976
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:47,600
Yeah, that part's funny is I 
guess for me, like I know that 

977
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,560
there are some pretty horrible 
things that occur while mating 

978
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,800
is, you know, like we talk about
sea otters and whatnot, but I 

979
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,680
have never heard of like a sea 
Otter with like, straight up 

980
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,240
broken motherfucking bones. 
Am I wrong? 

981
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:03,200
Also I mean I mean. 
I'm probably wrong. 

982
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,480
Killing other sea otters. 
But you know what else they do 

983
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,240
kill baby seals. 
And some of them are gay. 

984
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:16,280
So like, even if you have all 
broken bones that did result 

985
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,600
from sex, that doesn't mean 
those are all female. 

986
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,400
We have to remember that 
heterosexuality is not the only 

987
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,200
sexuality. 
Yep, and animals are a lot more 

988
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,800
fluid about getting it on than, 
you know, a lot of homophobes 

989
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,480
would. 
Really, I have sheep. 

990
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:35,440
I can film this shit for you if 
you need me to, but pretty much 

991
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,160
every Ram in the world is 
bisexual at the very least. 

992
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:44,840
Exactly. 
It just goes back to I mean, I 

993
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,880
love a curiosity moment. 
I hate love a red flag click 

994
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:54,120
baity project for this purpose 
and I just get frustrated with 

995
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:55,760
it. 
It it what? 

996
00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:00,240
Yeah, Jordan's paper shows of 
there's if there's literally 

997
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:03,800
nothing that can can be 
consistently shown to show 

998
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,200
sexual dimorphism. 
So like T Rex is one of them 

999
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,920
that we talk about a lot. 
And there's been folks who say 

1000
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,520
that the robusticity of the 
skeleton indicates a female 

1001
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,960
because in female birds of prey,
they tend to be larger. 

1002
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:21,200
But again, our sample size of T 
Rex material is fucking scant at

1003
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,560
best. 
And again, like they're just too

1004
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,720
many, too many issues with that 
logic of going in essentially 

1005
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:33,920
with the pre determine just to 
answer about what your results 

1006
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,400
mean. 
And I think it's more 

1007
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,720
interesting for you to go 
through the motions of trying to

1008
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:39,720
eliminate everything else and 
tell me what you can't 

1009
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:41,280
eliminate. 
And then I want to get curious 

1010
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,480
about all of the things you 
can't eliminate. 

1011
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,640
Then just it was a it was female
and male. 

1012
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,520
And I just, I don't think that's
exciting as much. 

1013
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,880
If you want to prove that bitch,
study something with fucking 

1014
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,080
horns even though it's not 
guaranteed. 

1015
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,880
But even then, look at Caribou, 
right? 

1016
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,120
They don't follow, follow all 
those rules. 

1017
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,400
Thank you for listening. 
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1018
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,480
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1019
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,480
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1020
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,320
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1021
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:12,880
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1022
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,600
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1023
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,720
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1024
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:23,080
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1025
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,000
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This podcast is part of the 

1026
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,280
Geology Podcasting Network. 
Produced by the traveling 

1027
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,200
geologist Chris Spencer. 
Cover art provided by Chris 

1028
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,440
Spencer and the hosts. 
Our theme song is Unlock Me by 

1029
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,600
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1030
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,960
amazing Katie Bradley. 
Hosted by and researched by us, 

1031
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,720
Amy Atwater and Megan 
Weatherall. 

1032
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:50,760
Thanks for listening. 
I'm recording. 

1033
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,440
I am I. 
Think no, I'm not my. 

1034
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,280
Well, there I go. 
My mic had fallen and it 

1035
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,160
couldn't get up. 
Remarkably, Can't get it up is 

1036
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:02,680
not one of the topics of today.