Welcome to this episode of KD Go Conversations and Nephrology.
This episode, titled Applying CKD Interventions, is provided
by KD Go and is supported by an independent educational grant
from AstraZeneca. Here's your host, Doctor Peter
Lynn. Hello and welcome to Kate Eagle,
Conversations in Nephrology. I'm Dr. Peter Lynn, Director of
Primary Care Initiatives at the Canadian Heart Research Center
and a family physician in Toronto, Canada and joining me
today to discuss the importance of applying CKD interventions.
Is Dr. Joel Toff, who is an Assistant Clinical Professor of
Medicine at Oakland University William Beaumont School of
Medicine. But Joel is really famous for
his Twitter account Kidney Boy, where he discusses all things
kidney. He is also the cofounder of Nef
Madness and NEF JC a Journal Club, and he's also the host of
the freely Filtered podcast. So Joel, welcome to this
program. Peter, I'm really glad to be
here. I'm a huge kidney go stand.
Awesome, Awesome. Let's get started.
Let's go back to basic stroll. Let's talk about salt.
What's the latest in the sodium story and what's the latest
thinking? And how do you explain sodium
intake and diets to your patients?
Yeah, Peter, like everything in medicine, what we thought was
simple, the more we looked into it became more complex.
So sodium has been like the common villain in nephrology for
fifty, 60-70 years and with the advice has always been reduce
your sodium intake, reduce your sodium intake.
And as we've looked into it more and more, it's more complex than
that. And it does seem that the ratio
of sodium to potassium intake is what's really important.
And that in addition to trying to lower your sodium, you want
to increase your potassium intake for optimal vascular
health. And we're seeing that vascular
health pay dividends in terms of reduced cardiovascular disease.
And reduce chronic kidney disease.
So getting that ratio and it's not just reducing the sodium,
but making sure patients get a rich source of potassium in that
diet. And it kind of rings true when
you kind of think about in your mind what's a healthy diet you
think of fruits and vegetables and those are all going to be
rich in potassium. And that's just a real important
part of that. This is best demonstrated in the
recently published SASS trial that's SSASS.
This came out of rural China. Where they replaced the usual
high quality sodium chloride that patients use in their salt
shakers with a mixture of sodium chloride and potassium chloride.
And so villages that were randomized to the potassium
chloride intervention, those villagers had modestly reduced
sodium intake but a pretty significant increase in their
daily potassium intake. And then they followed them for
a few years and they saw reductions in stroke and
cardiovascular disease and so. Pretty nice demonstration that
it's not just the sodium that it's the sodium plus the
decrease in sodium and increase in potassium intake.
And this is something that I find that I'm going to talk to
my patients, they're all hungry for nutritional information.
A lot of my patients really want to know, hey, what kind of
lifestyle modifications, what can I do besides just taking
this pill can I do to minimize my risk of being on dialysis?
And I think this is good advice and something that people can
really operationalize. And that makes a lot of sense.
It's a balancing act that's important as opposed to 1
component or the other. So the ratio is important and
that's something that we didn't know about.
So thanks for bringing that up. The other thing is that when
patients reach out for just kind of dietary guidelines just using
general Internet, what they often see is reduce the
potassium intake which is you know good advice if you're in
very late stage CKD getting close to dialysis where
potassium becomes a real issue. But the for the vast majority of
our CKD patients. You know, potassium balance is
just not an issue for them and that, you know, having them
restrict potassium there is probably pushing them towards a
diet that's not so good for them.
That makes sense because we always thought about reducing
potassium, reducing sodium, reducing all of these things.
But what you're saying is that in the early stages that
balancing acts between sodium and potassium is really
important and not just in terms of kidneys, but in terms of
cardiovascular risk as well. Absolutely.
So Joel, there's been a lot of excitement in the last five
years about SGLT 2 inhibitor trials and things like that.
I've never seen nephrologists so happy in my life.
And are we using enough of this SGLT 2?
And specifically, which patients are you putting on SGLT 2
inhibitors? Well, Peter, I love the Frozens.
And so we need to get away from this SGLT 2 inhibitors.
They're our friends. Let's call them by their name,
there are Frozens. So I'm a flozenator, right?
Every day I get up and I look in the mirror and I said, who am I
going to flozenate today? And I've been very aggressive
about getting my patients on flosins and I'm finding it
harder and harder to find new patients because the majority of
my CKD patients now are on Flosins.
Last November, we had the announcement and simultaneous
publication of empa kidney, which was an important piece of
evidence in the chain of evidence that we have for
flosins in CKD. What empa kidney brought to the
table was it lowered the GFR from the previous.
Record of 25 milliliters per minute down to 20 milliliters
per minute. And so that was kind of a new
record for how low the GFR can go, but we see benefit in these
patients. The other thing that it did is
it randomized patients both without diabetes and without
proteinuria. A lot of the earlier CKD data
had only enrolled patients with proteinuria was one of the
enrollment criteria, but empa kidney did have a tranche of
patients that had no proteinuria and.
Though if you just look in that group in isolation, they didn't
reach the primary endpoint. If you look at the slope of GFR,
which is going to be less sensitive to events, right,
because the primary endpoint was a doubling of serum creatinine,
initiation of dialysis and those patients have a very slow
progression, right? They don't have proteinuria,
They don't have one of the major risk factors for progression of
CKD. But if you look at the slope of
GFR, they did have a beneficial effect on slope and that really
reassured me that this is really a drug for all my patients.
And then honestly, Peter, if you're skeptical about that
slope because it wasn't the primary outcome, you could just
take a look at the cardiovascular data.
The cardiovascular data enrolled lots of patients without
proteinuria and they also had lots of cardiovascular benefits.
And I think that's a kind of a belt and suspenders approach to
this drug is that you know, it clearly is good for the kidneys,
but the vast majority of. Patients with even with advanced
CKD will die of cardiovascular disease before they get to
dialysis and that that's no in no way is that a win.
But having a drug that prevents heart failure and prevents
admissions from heart failure and prevents death, the
cardiovascular death, that's also indicating CKD is perfect
and that's what we have with the flows.
Either way you look or any way you justify it to the patients
whether you if they have particular fears about dialysis
you're like this is great for dialysis or they have a sketchy
heart history, you're like well this is one of the most powerful
heart medications we've ever had.
Really. And the only medicine we've had
that's been able to help patients with heart failure with
preserved ejection fraction. So these are you know,
breakthrough medications and I am using them every which way,
but left, you know, in addition to lack of proneuria and lack of
GFR, they have a role in patients that have borderline
hyperkalemia. They reduce episodes of
hyperkalemia. Their data came out meta
analysis of Closings showed that they reduced episodes of acute
kidney injury. They really are breakthrough
medications and I'm trying to get as many patients on them as
possible. That makes a lot of sense and
all the studies are pointing in that direction.
And initially we didn't think that these were great drugs,
right? But now they're showing up
everywhere. So as you said, in
cardiovascular patients, they were also good for kidney
disease and heart failure patients, good for heart
failure, good for kidney disease.
And we're now branching out from diabetes to non diabetes
patients and having those same benefits.
So you're absolutely right. It seems like the population
that would benefit from this is actually quite large now.
Yeah. And we didn't even touch on the
glomerulone nephritis population.
This is another group, you know, clearly shown in IGA to have a
real powerful renal protective effect in the IGA population.
And I think we're going to see additional data coming down the
pipe, little bits, memberness, FSGS, you know, that is not
there yet. Those are harder groups to
gather. But my sense is we're going to
just see this kind of knock off one population after another.
That's great. So therefore more and more
patients will come into the funnel where they're going to be
using this as opposed to these drugs are for these specific
patients that net is actually getting very, very large now.
Yeah, it's just a generic kidney health medicine is it might be a
reasonable way to think about it.
And drugs is incredibly well tolerated.
You know, part of me thinks, oh, a drug that's that good probably
has a lot of nasty side effects and part of the reason that
people are such fans of the drug is that it really does.
It's a pretty clean. Profile, the drug is well
tolerant. You know probably the most
ringing endorsement is that in the placebo-controlled trials
there was no difference in patients discontinuing the drug
from the placebo, which is kind of unheard of always.
You know patients on the active group have more discontinuation,
more side effects. We're just not seeing that, it's
amazing. For those tuning in, you're
listening to KD Co podcast on CKD Interventions.
I'm Dr. Peter Lynn and I'm speaking with Dr. Joel Toff.
So, OK, Joel, besides SGLT 2 inhibitors and I think grass
inhibitors, what are other new treatments or interventions that
you're using on your patients now?
Yeah. The thing that I'm finding
that's changing my practice is we now have a few different
choices for patient tolerable and effective potassium binders,
right? You know, for much of my career,
when we said potassium binders, the only story there was
kaaxalate, which was a medication that patients hated,
couldn't tolerate. Didn't taste good, caused
diarrhea, caused Constipation and the idea of using it
chronically so that you could maintain an ace.
And I I would never entertain it cuz it was such a miserable drug
to be on. But with the ptero mere and
sodium zirconium cyclosilicate, these drugs are well tolerated.
Patients take them, they don't have any trouble with it.
And I am finding myself reaching for those more and more in
select situations. You know, patients that.
To really feel strongly that we need to keep them on an ACE
inhibitor, you know patients with advanced heart failure,
patients with significant proteinuria, you know Ras
inhibition in those situations is literally lifesaving.
And if I need to give the patient a potassium binder that
they take, you know most of the patients don't even need to take
a daily or three days a week is usually enough to keep their
potassium safe. That's huge, right.
And I think that's going to make a huge difference for these
patients and that you know in addition that you know the new
kid on the block Finerano, you know this is a drug that has
significant hyperkalemia, right. They didn't even enroll patient
potassium is more than 4.7. And so patients you know solidly
in the normal range of potassium weren't enrolled in the pivotal
trials, Figaro and Fidelio. If their potassium was at the
upper limit of normal, well, you know, here's a way that you
might be able to get your patients to either start the
drug or stay on it. If the potassium drifts up and I
think that's also going to pay benefits.
So I think it's a pretty important advancement having a
tolerable potassium binder that's available for patients.
Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense because if you can offer a
tolerable potassium binder, it allows you to keep all your
other drugs. You know, as you were saying,
the Ras blockers, etc, which is one of the things that we used
to be very afraid of, but now you have an option around that.
So that's actually very good. Now when I was in medical
school, Joe, last century, I guess it was basically CKD
seemed like a very gloomy, doomy kind of space.
How do you see CKD now as we're moving forward in 2023 and
forward? Peter, you just got to remember
how new this field was if you were in medical school in the
last century. We didn't even call it C Kitty,
it was chronic renal insufficiency.
We know really like you know that was the big advancement
around what 2000 or 2001 was. Let's establish this field of
chronic kidney disease. Let's understand that if we're
going to help patients that are headed towards dialysis or to
have chronic kidney disease, we need to have a language to talk
about it staging to grade these patients.
And so you know you go back 25 years, we're really starting
from the very first steps. Hey, let's.
Figure out the names to call this and.
But you're right since then, you know, at that time we had ACE
inhibitors, Arb's were still on patent.
We were talking about them as being the expensive medication.
And now you look around and we have just an embarrassment
riches, an incredible new number of tools that are available to
us with a robust evidence base where we can really know, hey
this stuff really works and it really works across these
populations. Really, really is amazing, but
it's not only and CKD, the nephrologists are happy because
we're having new tools to treat glomerulonephritis, right.
We're getting new tools to modify the complement cascade,
probably something we didn't even understand when you were in
medical school in terms of its importance for
glomerulonephritis and renal damage.
And now we're getting multiple, you already have some tools
available and additional drugs that are on the way.
I think that those are going to be revolutionary.
We're having new medications that are designed solely for.
Dealing with the symptoms of uremia, I'm thinking of that
like a phalan for itch. You know these patients that
have had CKD associated puritis, you know we give them some
Benadryl and and cross our fingers knowing that it really
didn't work. And now we have a specific
medication for this therapy that's fairly effective.
It's amazing the opportunities that are out there.
And then you know we have a new endothelial antagonists which
are you know the first one now approved for IGA nephropathy and
I think that's going to be a drug that will find additional
uses and other GN's. It's really important.
And the other thing is on the side of diagnosis.
You know, in the past we were limited to kidney biopsies and
now we have genetic tests that are becoming much more
affordable and opening up much more precision in the way of
diagnosis. So it really is an amazing time
to be a nephrologist. And I guess I'm not the only one
who's really happy about it. I'm glad that you're seeing
that. And all these tools, whether
they're diagnostic or therapeutics, we need to know
how to use them and it's almost impossible to keep up.
So I'm glad that. PD goes here lighting the way.
Forward, that's great, Joel. So basically, you're telling us
that there's a lot of positive news in this space.
I think this is a great recruitment program for
nephrologists because everybody's excited about this
field. So basically, you're telling us
that there are a lot of things that we can do to help improve
the lives of our patients with CKD ranging from Ras blockade to
SGLT 2 inhibitors, Mra's, potassium binders, etcetera,
etcetera. And as you said, riches of
treatment, which is fantastic. And I guess the key is that we
need to make sure that our patients are getting those
treatments so that they can lead better lives.
So thank you Joel, for all your Twitter efforts on keeping us up
to date with new CKD developments.
And thank you for taking the time today to share your
insights on CKD interventions. Glad.
To be here, this was excellent. Thank you.
I'm Doctor Peter Lynn signing off.
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