Hello everyone and welcome back to the Australian Law Student
Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond,
and on today's episode we have something a little bit different
for everyone. It's the second last episode of
season one for 2024 if you've been counting, and So what a
season it's been. And just before our grand finale
in which we have a very notable guest, I thought it would be
good to sit down with my Co founder Nick Hodgkinson and the
main host of the Law and four podcast.
And I suppose go through the the term and and sort of talk about
where the Australian law student has is headed and perhaps
reflect a little bit on the guests that we've had along the
way and and what you can expect to see in the future.
So, Nick, how are you? Good.
Thanks, Ali. Thanks for having me on.
That's all right. That's all right.
We're, yeah, we're definitely heading for big things I think
for the rest of the year and looking to plan for the for the
next year as well. One of the things that I think
has been really notable at the moment is the I think quality of
guests that we've been able to have on.
I mean last year we trialled with guests thankfully James
Dappajee most notably was was able to come on and he was great
and also Tyson Manicolo, a bit of a funny guest there.
But yeah, I mean this term we've had a array of guests, 2
university professors, Joanne Kinslaw and Bronwyn Morgan, a
lawyer in pro bono work at the Redford legal Sam Lee Hall and
Wilcox graduate. Obviously the Hall and Wilcox
sponsor was a big thing and it was mainly one of our other team
members, Jason, who really helped land that and Holly
Booker's been really good to us. I think overall really have high
things to say about them. So definitely check them out if
you have time. It's a really great law firm.
I mean they welcomed us in into their offices and and it was
lovely to sit down and Laurice as is the the person I
interviewed was also really lovely.
So that was good. But yeah, I mean Nick and I went
to Redfern to interview Sam Lee I think.
How did we get Sam Lee like, like in terms of guest
acquisition, like with her, was that just a LinkedIn?
Do you message on LinkedIn? Yeah, I reached out to Sam on
LinkedIn, but she was lovely. And that was a an insightful
discussion for both of us I think.
Yeah, definitely. I mean Redfern town hall.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was that was, that was really interesting
as well. Like I suppose with pro bono
it's very different environment, different clients and yeah,
trekking out into Redfern in the rain that one morning, I
remember. So yeah, that like we we've
definitely had like a lot of good memories on things.
Daphne Fong, it was a great law student as well at UNSW.
Just reaching out to her to be honest, I think that our our
range of guests differs and and the person who brings in the
guest differs. I mean you've brought in a
couple. Sam.
There was talks about getting the professor from UNSW.
What was his name? Do you remember his name?
Professor from UNSW? What?
Was his name. He's a very smart guy, young
guy. I can't remember.
No. Yeah.
Well. We reached out to him and I
think, but I was just so busy and at the point in time like
because you we're doing interviews with people obviously
at their chosen location. You know, we don't have a
podcast gear or anything like that.
So I'm transporting podcast gear.
So yeah, I obviously can sort of overlap.
But then we've also had people, notable people in the legal
community. Well, Mel's story she wrote
reached out to us. She's very popular.
I think she's in Sydney sometime in May.
So that might be teed up for the next season.
Politicians as well. Well, I mean that's just about
leveraging I suppose the networks that we have.
Yeah. I suppose Nick and I both being
Interstate, we've had to be very sort of guerrilla user, sort of
guerrilla tactics in terms of being able to build up our
network. Yeah, I don't, I don't have any
family in Sydney and I don't think Nick does.
And so definitely, like putting yourself out there I think has
been a really big part of it and just trying to find some sort of
community. I think for myself, I befriended
a couple of older people I suppose and also just applying
for jobs and stuff like that. I mean my first job I, which
I've now since left to join a bit of a bigger firm.
I still, I caught up with my old boss and you know just sort of
had a bit of a mentor chat around that.
So definitely like catching up. I mean, I don't know.
You worked. You actually work.
Interestingly though, you're strange in that you worked in a
law firm before doing law, so you're paralegal in Perth.
Yeah, so my undergraduate degree, a Bachelor of Science.
I then worked full time as a paralegal at a global law firm
for a year, moved to Sydney to start the JD at New South,
continued with that firm for a few months and then jumped ship
to a National Insurance firm. I worked there for six months or
thereabouts and now I'm working as a research assistant to a
barrister at the NSW Bar. So some varied experience, but
good I think as a law student to say yes always and don't be
afraid to try something that at the first instance you might be
uncomfortable doing because you know some.
Some really good advice given to me was that in order to be a
good specialist you first need to be a good generalist.
And so it's really important for law students and law graduates
and and I suppose anyone interested in building out their
practice to speak to as many people as they can in as many
different practice groups and stick with it even if you're not
enjoying it. And that's something that we've
learnt through the podcast and the business more generally I
think is you know sometimes the opportunities that you enjoy the
most are those that at first you you know we're rough and.
Yeah, you can't always expect, I think to have it as all sunshine
and rainbows. I mean, look, I think that's a,
that's obviously a fact that I think that old cliche that
everyone's heard. But in law especially, it's like
you really do. It's an industry which is for
better, for worse still very hierarchical.
And so you do you do have to do your time in the trenches before
you can I suppose really get out there and and and get the sort
of glittery glittery work. But I think yeah I again like
putting yourself out there is is probably the best piece of
advice. I mean with the the Australian
law student more broadly, it's like with us we've we've just
tried to get a broad array of guests.
Some of them have been ex lecturers that we've had.
Yeah, the politicians and stuff like that.
That's just literally messaging their electoral offices and
seeing what happens there. And it's really interesting
because you get to be invited. You'd be surprised how many
people are willing just to talk to you or willing to just have a
chat. I mean off I suppose the mic you
have a lot of conversations with with guests just about their
day-to-day life and and in a way it's it's really eye opening I
suppose and I hope that the viewers have found eye opening
and yeah all all, sorry the listeners have found it eye
opening because it's been really I think beneficial from from my
self and just understanding the broad array of law like yeah I
mean but obviously it is varied like you do have professionals
that contradict each other. I mean one of the I suppose more
notable instances of that was interviewing Stephen McCauley, a
sort of general private practice practitioner who sort of spoke
about how lawyers specialized too young and and to stay
general and whatever else. But another guest I remember
talked about how to really gain expertise in your field you've
got to find the area that you love and and really focus in on
it. So I suppose in a way it's kind
of like there's no one approach I think and and just find the
one that works for you. If, and I don't know, like is
is, is there an approach do you think that that that suits you
or do you think there's an approach that that is like
universal or is it really that like unique and subjective?
No, I don't think so. I mean, I've got so many friends
in the JD program who have, you know, started their studies in
law at really varied points in their life.
One of my good friends, Kale, moved over from Perth.
Like me, he's got three children and you know studies full time
and and he's doing exceptionally well in his studies.
There are other people who you know don't take gap years and
start a combined undergraduate law degree straight from high
school. So I think that's one of the
good things about law school is that of course you know, you you
get some really bright people and some excellent and sometimes
controversial ideas going around.
But there's there's no there's no one-size-fits-all approach to
law school. In the way that you approach it.
But I do think that I suppose a trait that I've noticed is which
is fairly uniform across all students is either curiosity or,
you know, extroversion. And I think some of the best
friends that I've made at law school, you know, have have
those traits in equal measure and and they are, I suppose,
able to be learned. But you don't win the lottery if
you don't buy a ticket. And so that's, you know, us
messaging guests 10 times a week and only getting a response
once. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, the
hit rate is through. I mean this might occur later on
in the year, but I mean one of our other teammates, Jason,
who's from you said we tried to tee up injury with James Allsop,
the ex, the ex Federal court judge.
Yeah, yeah, Chief Justice, Chief office.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Of the federal court, yeah.
And so, but obviously he's very busy.
And then it was actually funnily enough, Jason emailed him and
then from our teams e-mail and then we just get the e-mail
back. It's like a one line response
saying hi Jason, really super busy talk later.
Like it was like really just like like shortened to the
point. But it was amazing though, just
to like even have the opportunity I suppose to to know
people to get that e-mail and to send it, you know, And lo and
behold, like I remember looking through the AFR at work like a
month later and seeing James also appointed to the High Court
in Hong Kong. And I was like oh, that makes
sense why he's so busy. He's planning for an
international movie. I mean it's a very common thing
that Australian judges go and become expats over in Hong Kong
because of the sort of common law roots.
But yeah, and then there was a a really well known barrister,
Alan Myers, who reached out to and he was from Victoria.
I mean, obviously my Victorian roots, if people know about
that. I'm originally from Victoria and
so I had a personal connection to him and I thought for sure
that personal connection was going to hit.
But lo and behold, it turns out he really doesn't like to do
media interviews. So that just got completely
bounced back and I was a bit disappointed obviously.
But you sort of get up and I know Jason who's had a sort of
experience in this space, Jason, one of our team members, he, he
sort of gave good advice. You know, you you're going to
get knocked back a a couple times and you just got to get
back on the horse. And so that was really
interesting I suppose to look at it from from that perspective as
well to just keep going and keep going.
But I think it's also surprising when you get a guest that you
didn't think you were going to. I mean, the finale guest was
definitely fun that that goes along with that.
And hopefully in Season 2 and season three, we're having
guests that we're surprised that we can even get on.
So that's that. That's also an amazing part of
it. Yeah.
And I think with our reception more broadly, I mean talking
about some of the the numbers, how, how, how have we gone
there. I mean I know that from our
social media side of things with our shorts the the team that we
have is, is quite small and so and also I think there's
mistakes that have been made along the way.
But we're we're constantly adapting at the Australian
lawsuit. We're getting better and we will
continue to get better. I mean with the sort of more
short form content on TikTok and Instagram it has been very
similar with the sort of clips and stuff like that.
I know that we used to do like memes and like rankings and that
sort of stuff. Now part of that is obviously
difficult because you know the the sheer number of, I mean
we're all juggling job work and degrees and personal lives and
you know sport and you know all this sort of stuff like all on
top of that. So it can be really tricky to
have even to have this sort of, yeah, this sort of platform, the
site you're running. But I know with TikTok we've
just, I think we've just surpassed over 2000 falls, which
is a really good achievement. Instagram is sort of teetering
around the 1K mark, which is a bit frustrating.
I mean the growth side of things I think has definitely been a
bit stunted just by the similarness of content.
And also, like, it's also like all algorithmic.
Like, it's like there's apparently certain secrets that
you've got to unlock with the algorithm that I haven't paid
attention to. But I randomly see people like,
apparently, like, things like posting three times a week is
more optimal than five times a week.
So rather than once a day, you're posting it three times a
week that the algorithm likes that.
So you know, there's, there's all these sort of different
variables that go into play, which is like, yeah, you're
probably not utilizing that as much if you're not like someone
that's really invested, I suppose, like myself into like
social media, sort of the back end of social media and how
algorithms work and how to get the most likes and comments and
engagement, that sort of stuff. So I mean we had that real
explosion at the start I think, but obviously things have have
have the sort of growth has sort of slowed.
But I think that'll pick up towards the middle and the end
of the year especially that we're now I think managing
workflow a lot better. And so the engagement in terms
of like our social media sort of short form is really good.
But yeah, you you've basically been the the caretaker of the
LinkedIn and the Linkedin's been doing really well.
Yeah, it's it's been interesting to see.
I I think of course Instagram and TikTok more popular than
LinkedIn. Law students need to you guys
need to get off TikTok and start working on your midterm
assignments. But no Linkedin's.
Linkedin's interesting. You get this mix of
professionals and law students who are putting themselves out
there looking for jobs. And it's great because we can
track our engagement against law societies against other pages.
I think generally speaking we've left most of the law societies
in the dust in terms of our engagement statistics.
So I think at one point we were up 600% on the Sydney Uni Law
Society, which is just crazy for a page that, you know, started
four months ago. LinkedIn also really useful
because we can use it as a tool for networking and arranging,
you know, coffee catch UPS and lunches with people who we want
to speak to. You do just, you know, have to
be careful with making sure that you're, you know, gaming it
right, using the algorithm as you would on Instagram and
Tiktok. Yeah, yeah.
And that's the other thing is like like each social media
platform we're on 4 on social media.
We've got Spotify, LinkedIn, Tiktok, Instagram.
All of them have different algorithms.
I mean, like, look, I know like social media influence and
stuff, like how to game it all the time.
So I'm having a cry about the algorithm.
But it is actually very hard to keep track and remember like
okay. So LinkedIn works best when
you're doing things like polls and TikTok works best when
you're posting a lot and Instagram works best when you're
posting not as frequently. So obviously there's all these
sorts of different actors that come into play.
I suppose we're managing that social media side of things.
So that's definitely something that, yeah, we've had to learn
and learn on the fly. But no, it's been, I think
really like, I don't know, I'm really proud of it.
I suppose the growth and the amount of team worked with we've
had with LinkedIn and everything else.
I mean, another thing that we've been doing is employing like
interns. So like people basically.
I mean we're not like on on paper where like a company and
yes we have someone sponsor us to pay for like and and they pay
for like our subscription cost. But you know us as as
individuals do not make any money whatsoever.
And so in fact it's the opposite if we put our own personal,
personal savings stuff in it. So in in terms of that, it's
like well, okay, how can we set up a mutual relationship between
us where we can, I suppose have a little bit of workload taken
off us and younger law students first years can gain really
valuable experience. So you know, I've got an intern,
I'm Richa, Richa, if you're listening, you're doing doing
great. This is great work.
So she helps me with things like guests, the creating questions
for guests and doing BIOS and sort of doing looking up on sort
of guest BIOS and that sort of thing.
We've also got Hazel that does sort of bit of social media
stuff and you know these people that they work you know one hour
a week if even and they they just add a little bit to us and
hopefully we're able to help them.
And you know I think it's really interesting to see that as well
to see to see that growth. I mean usually I think these the
market in terms of law students has all has been so dominated by
law firms in wanting that paralegal job and that sort of
stuff. But there's also such there's
such great experience elsewhere. I mean like yes I think the
Australian law student brands itself is sort of a bit of an
alternative to law societies. But if you're, I suppose if
you're listening to us, obviously get involved with us.
But if you have, well, I don't know I suppose the people that
aren't listening to us, if they're a part of the Law
Society, it's a great opportunity I think to be a part
of in terms of volunteering and and getting involved in that
sort of stuff. So just like any experience you
know I I ran the social director for our college, our residential
college that was great experience.
So there's so many other great experiences that you can get
that more friends look so favorably upon in in when it
comes to it. So yeah, like that's that.
That's been really I think. Awesome.
We're having the little having our little intern program as
well. And it's kind of weird like you
went in for an interview for a job and they talked to you
about, talked to you about like, oh, they're employing like like
like managing interns and stuff like that.
Like it is very rare I think for any, any person really, not just
for law students, to have managerial skills.
Now I say that like as if it's like a really big thing.
Obviously it's like we conducted like little interviews and that
sort of stuff, which is, which was tricky, I suppose asking the
right questions and you feel, definitely feel a bit weird
because it's like you're so used to being on the other end of
being the employee employee rather than the employer.
I suppose in this instance you're just sort of vetting
people, like do they have, do they understand what they're
going to get out of it and that sort of stuff.
So yeah, I know that's been a really interesting experience as
well. In terms of being great, it's a
it's a privilege to be able to interview and and take on the
interns. I think because they have a lot
of license to contribute where such a small platform and they
can really get out of it what they put in.
So we've got 4 interns at the moment, which is a little bit
alarming because six months ago it was you and I working on this
in a residential college bedroom.
And now there's four, four partners, a corporate
sponsorship and four interns. Yeah, yeah.
So that all came about really quickly.
Yeah. But yes, I when I was
interviewing with a firm, they did ask me about the experience
that we've had with our interns. And you forget, I think, because
we're all so busy, the skills that we've developed during this
process, from posting the ad to vetting candidates,
interviewing. Of course, by that point you've
decided on the kind of person you sure don't want to take on
as an intern. Onboarding them, delegating work
to them, settling their work, letting them post their work,
and then the whole cycle rinses and repeats.
Of course, you're checking in with the other partners about
you know if their interns are at capacity or not, how the interns
can work together. At the moment, Hazel's helping
me with planning a social event, so that will be announced soon.
We're excited about that. Because that'll be good that
yeah our I suppose we'll actually looking to sort of do
in physical stuff like and that that's definitely a big a big
process part of it. Well, that's where we're going.
I think I'm in our community now is fairly sizable, yeah.
Yeah. So we're in a position where we
can start offer in person events and you know I should think that
by the end of you know this, this year at least we will have
had probably 2-2 events and hopefully something with one of
our our partner firms. But that's going to be a great
way for our members to start leveraging the the community
more. I think of course the past six
months we've been, we've been online only and that'll be where
the rubber hits the road. I think for us, because of
course we are, we operate on a different model to the
conventional law societies. Law students from any university
can become a member and access our services.
And so I should think that you know there there will be
naturally more opportunities for law students to network at our
events. We're in Sydney at the moment.
There's no reason to think that, you know, we won't be expanding
to. I would assume first it would be
Melbourne and and probably Brisbane, Newcastle maybe, but
it it won't just be, you know, Sydney uni law students are
confined to the events that the Sydney Uni Law Society puts on.
I think that's a bit outdated. Maybe that's just because we're
New South students, but we did have to update the rankings.
Yeah. Yeah, recently, which is
something that we might get Jason to talk about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I suppose like to talking
about that shift as well. It's just been real.
I mean just noticing that entire thing.
It's just so it is it is very surreal I suppose like there
are. I mean yeah look obviously we
say as as New South students and stuff like that but obviously we
have friends at different law schools and I think it's it's
really good to really try and I suppose breakdown the the
traditional society model of only catering to your own
students. I think when you look at it why
aren't we working together and if the look, look I mean it it
it is hard because I suppose with employers and and whatever
else employers will say that like we'll obviously look at
different universities in different ways.
But I mean like you said for example very traditional
university that has a reputation of academic excellence and and a
very robust education and whatever else.
But I think more and more like, yes, those those views and stuff
are still being held and whatever else.
But more and more that's slowly starting to I think a road where
people, you know, you go into top law firms and you see a lot
more people from other Unis, a lot more people and from from
Bora array of Unis, especially in Sydney.
Like, yes, you got Interstate people coming over and stuff
like that. A lot more as well, which is a
bit a bit strange. I went to a I went to an event
at a big law firm and yeah, people from Canberra were there.
I was like, I completely forgot that if you want to do like
corporate law in Canberra, you probably coming up to Sydney,
shout out to all the Canberra fans, we got an intern from
Canberra. So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's good.
It's good. I think to have that and just
having these in person events like I don't know how we're
going to, I suppose manage that in terms of other States and
whatever else. I mean, look, we'll just play it
by ear and we'll just take a look, look at it as
opportunities to present themselves.
Yeah, But I think right now Nick and I have a couple of years
left just yet in our law degree. So we're still Australian law
students for the time being and I suppose looking into the
future, yeah, we're obviously looking on for for more people
to to take on and to and to really contribute in some way,
shape or form and and truly make this a platform that people can
use and people can use for the long term.
You know there are several predecessors I think we've done
like a little bit of I suppose market research and looking at
stuff like that that there are sort of old older sort of
Australian law student like platforms I think.
But I think if we're able to really focus on the younger
generations and and and pass it on then that would be a really
good and amazing long standing mark.
And yeah, I think for us as well, it's just about broadening
everyone else's horizons. You know with Daphne Fong that
she was able to put us in contact with some writers from
the Lawyers Weekly, which is a publication service probably.
I reckon lawyers probably read the AFR the most and then
Lawyers week is probably up there is probably like the
second or definitely top five I think So, yeah, I mean they
sponsor all the law awards and whatever else.
But yeah, I think with on that note as well-being, able to sort
of potentially writing an article for them, so potentially
contributing into the wider sort of legal space as well I think
is just really, really awesome. And so yeah, it's just been an
amazing journey thus far. And I think looking into the
future, there are big things. Yes, we've got these physical in
person events. We've got growth on social media
and podcasting. We've got yeah hopefully bigger
and better guests. What we.
Yeah, we do we do have bigger and better guests coming out.
Obviously not that's obviously our guest this this season as
well. It's just been amazing.
You know it can't be any can't be any more grateful for their
contributions as well and being able to sit down and ask
questions and and really gain a a valuable understanding of how
the law works. So yeah, I suppose looking into
the future there's there's great things on the horizon.
So yeah. Do you have anything else to
add, Nick, closing remarks? Not other than keep your eyes
peeled for the last podcast guest.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a doozy. It is an amazing podcast guest
with Hugh McDermott, the other the well, probably just both
there, but I was going to say with the Hugh McDermott, I was
invited very gratefully grateful for that.
Invited to Parliament House in NSW due to conduct an interview
there. And let's just say with this
one, I was also invited back to Parliament House and I had got
to sit in the lovely jubilee room and interview a very, very
special guest. So yeah, stay tuned for that
next week. And yeah, thank you for
listening to a bit of a different episode and yeah,
we'll see you later. And so Nick, as I sign off with
most of my guests, thank you for joining me and best of luck for
the rest of the. Year.
Thanks, Ollie.