1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,760 Hello everyone and welcome back to the Australian Law Student 2 00:00:02,760 --> 00:00:04,600 Podcast. I'm your host Oliver Hammond, 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,120 and on today's episode we have something a little bit different 4 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,160 for everyone. It's the second last episode of 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,120 season one for 2024 if you've been counting, and So what a 6 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,480 season it's been. And just before our grand finale 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,240 in which we have a very notable guest, I thought it would be 8 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:27,280 good to sit down with my Co founder Nick Hodgkinson and the 9 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,400 main host of the Law and four podcast. 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,960 And I suppose go through the the term and and sort of talk about 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,160 where the Australian law student has is headed and perhaps 12 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:41,480 reflect a little bit on the guests that we've had along the 13 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:44,840 way and and what you can expect to see in the future. 14 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,320 So, Nick, how are you? Good. 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:47,720 Thanks, Ali. Thanks for having me on. 16 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:48,640 That's all right. That's all right. 17 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:54,560 We're, yeah, we're definitely heading for big things I think 18 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,120 for the rest of the year and looking to plan for the for the 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,720 next year as well. One of the things that I think 20 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,640 has been really notable at the moment is the I think quality of 21 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,080 guests that we've been able to have on. 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,880 I mean last year we trialled with guests thankfully James 23 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,080 Dappajee most notably was was able to come on and he was great 24 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,160 and also Tyson Manicolo, a bit of a funny guest there. 25 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:25,160 But yeah, I mean this term we've had a array of guests, 2 26 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,600 university professors, Joanne Kinslaw and Bronwyn Morgan, a 27 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,960 lawyer in pro bono work at the Redford legal Sam Lee Hall and 28 00:01:35,960 --> 00:01:38,360 Wilcox graduate. Obviously the Hall and Wilcox 29 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:45,280 sponsor was a big thing and it was mainly one of our other team 30 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,960 members, Jason, who really helped land that and Holly 31 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,600 Booker's been really good to us. I think overall really have high 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,920 things to say about them. So definitely check them out if 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:57,520 you have time. It's a really great law firm. 34 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,160 I mean they welcomed us in into their offices and and it was 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,480 lovely to sit down and Laurice as is the the person I 36 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:05,560 interviewed was also really lovely. 37 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,800 So that was good. But yeah, I mean Nick and I went 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,800 to Redfern to interview Sam Lee I think. 39 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,760 How did we get Sam Lee like, like in terms of guest 40 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,920 acquisition, like with her, was that just a LinkedIn? 41 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Do you message on LinkedIn? Yeah, I reached out to Sam on 42 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:29,640 LinkedIn, but she was lovely. And that was a an insightful 43 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:31,160 discussion for both of us I think. 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,200 Yeah, definitely. I mean Redfern town hall. 45 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was that was, that was really interesting 46 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,920 as well. Like I suppose with pro bono 47 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:42,000 it's very different environment, different clients and yeah, 48 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,200 trekking out into Redfern in the rain that one morning, I 49 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,000 remember. So yeah, that like we we've 50 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,640 definitely had like a lot of good memories on things. 51 00:02:48,640 --> 00:02:52,520 Daphne Fong, it was a great law student as well at UNSW. 52 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,240 Just reaching out to her to be honest, I think that our our 53 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,720 range of guests differs and and the person who brings in the 54 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:02,600 guest differs. I mean you've brought in a 55 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,320 couple. Sam. 56 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,800 There was talks about getting the professor from UNSW. 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,680 What was his name? Do you remember his name? 58 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:17,520 Professor from UNSW? What? 59 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,040 Was his name. He's a very smart guy, young 60 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,040 guy. I can't remember. 61 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,200 No. Yeah. 62 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:25,600 Well. We reached out to him and I 63 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,520 think, but I was just so busy and at the point in time like 64 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,760 because you we're doing interviews with people obviously 65 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,440 at their chosen location. You know, we don't have a 66 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:35,720 podcast gear or anything like that. 67 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:36,800 So I'm transporting podcast gear. 68 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:38,680 So yeah, I obviously can sort of overlap. 69 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,440 But then we've also had people, notable people in the legal 70 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,080 community. Well, Mel's story she wrote 71 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:44,880 reached out to us. She's very popular. 72 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,080 I think she's in Sydney sometime in May. 73 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,960 So that might be teed up for the next season. 74 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,240 Politicians as well. Well, I mean that's just about 75 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,160 leveraging I suppose the networks that we have. 76 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,360 Yeah. I suppose Nick and I both being 77 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,360 Interstate, we've had to be very sort of guerrilla user, sort of 78 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,480 guerrilla tactics in terms of being able to build up our 79 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,520 network. Yeah, I don't, I don't have any 80 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,720 family in Sydney and I don't think Nick does. 81 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,120 And so definitely, like putting yourself out there I think has 82 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,200 been a really big part of it and just trying to find some sort of 83 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,800 community. I think for myself, I befriended 84 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,400 a couple of older people I suppose and also just applying 85 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,040 for jobs and stuff like that. I mean my first job I, which 86 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,760 I've now since left to join a bit of a bigger firm. 87 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,560 I still, I caught up with my old boss and you know just sort of 88 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,920 had a bit of a mentor chat around that. 89 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:44,600 So definitely like catching up. I mean, I don't know. 90 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:46,240 You worked. You actually work. 91 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,800 Interestingly though, you're strange in that you worked in a 92 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,840 law firm before doing law, so you're paralegal in Perth. 93 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:58,840 Yeah, so my undergraduate degree, a Bachelor of Science. 94 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:01,960 I then worked full time as a paralegal at a global law firm 95 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,400 for a year, moved to Sydney to start the JD at New South, 96 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:13,640 continued with that firm for a few months and then jumped ship 97 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:20,400 to a National Insurance firm. I worked there for six months or 98 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,080 thereabouts and now I'm working as a research assistant to a 99 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,600 barrister at the NSW Bar. So some varied experience, but 100 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:40,600 good I think as a law student to say yes always and don't be 101 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,800 afraid to try something that at the first instance you might be 102 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:52,200 uncomfortable doing because you know some. 103 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,920 Some really good advice given to me was that in order to be a 104 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,480 good specialist you first need to be a good generalist. 105 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:04,840 And so it's really important for law students and law graduates 106 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:10,440 and and I suppose anyone interested in building out their 107 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:16,240 practice to speak to as many people as they can in as many 108 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,240 different practice groups and stick with it even if you're not 109 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,280 enjoying it. And that's something that we've 110 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:26,240 learnt through the podcast and the business more generally I 111 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,400 think is you know sometimes the opportunities that you enjoy the 112 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:44,200 most are those that at first you you know we're rough and. 113 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,240 Yeah, you can't always expect, I think to have it as all sunshine 114 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:50,720 and rainbows. I mean, look, I think that's a, 115 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,120 that's obviously a fact that I think that old cliche that 116 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,520 everyone's heard. But in law especially, it's like 117 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,160 you really do. It's an industry which is for 118 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,920 better, for worse still very hierarchical. 119 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,960 And so you do you do have to do your time in the trenches before 120 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:09,160 you can I suppose really get out there and and and get the sort 121 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,120 of glittery glittery work. But I think yeah I again like 122 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,840 putting yourself out there is is probably the best piece of 123 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,560 advice. I mean with the the Australian 124 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,560 law student more broadly, it's like with us we've we've just 125 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,560 tried to get a broad array of guests. 126 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,560 Some of them have been ex lecturers that we've had. 127 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,400 Yeah, the politicians and stuff like that. 128 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,880 That's just literally messaging their electoral offices and 129 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:40,040 seeing what happens there. And it's really interesting 130 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,640 because you get to be invited. You'd be surprised how many 131 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,040 people are willing just to talk to you or willing to just have a 132 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,920 chat. I mean off I suppose the mic you 133 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,720 have a lot of conversations with with guests just about their 134 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,320 day-to-day life and and in a way it's it's really eye opening I 135 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,840 suppose and I hope that the viewers have found eye opening 136 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,080 and yeah all all, sorry the listeners have found it eye 137 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:11,440 opening because it's been really I think beneficial from from my 138 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,800 self and just understanding the broad array of law like yeah I 139 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,680 mean but obviously it is varied like you do have professionals 140 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,760 that contradict each other. I mean one of the I suppose more 141 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,760 notable instances of that was interviewing Stephen McCauley, a 142 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,280 sort of general private practice practitioner who sort of spoke 143 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,600 about how lawyers specialized too young and and to stay 144 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,919 general and whatever else. But another guest I remember 145 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,520 talked about how to really gain expertise in your field you've 146 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,440 got to find the area that you love and and really focus in on 147 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,320 it. So I suppose in a way it's kind 148 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,680 of like there's no one approach I think and and just find the 149 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:56,080 one that works for you. If, and I don't know, like is 150 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,880 is, is there an approach do you think that that that suits you 151 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,000 or do you think there's an approach that that is like 152 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,080 universal or is it really that like unique and subjective? 153 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,720 No, I don't think so. I mean, I've got so many friends 154 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:16,720 in the JD program who have, you know, started their studies in 155 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:24,760 law at really varied points in their life. 156 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,120 One of my good friends, Kale, moved over from Perth. 157 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:37,880 Like me, he's got three children and you know studies full time 158 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,920 and and he's doing exceptionally well in his studies. 159 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,840 There are other people who you know don't take gap years and 160 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,040 start a combined undergraduate law degree straight from high 161 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,680 school. So I think that's one of the 162 00:09:52,680 --> 00:10:00,080 good things about law school is that of course you know, you you 163 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:06,160 get some really bright people and some excellent and sometimes 164 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,200 controversial ideas going around. 165 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:19,040 But there's there's no there's no one-size-fits-all approach to 166 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,720 law school. In the way that you approach it. 167 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:34,560 But I do think that I suppose a trait that I've noticed is which 168 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:40,240 is fairly uniform across all students is either curiosity or, 169 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,800 you know, extroversion. And I think some of the best 170 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,520 friends that I've made at law school, you know, have have 171 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:59,440 those traits in equal measure and and they are, I suppose, 172 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,680 able to be learned. But you don't win the lottery if 173 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:10,240 you don't buy a ticket. And so that's, you know, us 174 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,960 messaging guests 10 times a week and only getting a response 175 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,840 once. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, the 176 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,880 hit rate is through. I mean this might occur later on 177 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,040 in the year, but I mean one of our other teammates, Jason, 178 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,480 who's from you said we tried to tee up injury with James Allsop, 179 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:29,520 the ex, the ex Federal court judge. 180 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,520 Yeah, yeah, Chief Justice, Chief office. 181 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,440 Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Of the federal court, yeah. 182 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,840 And so, but obviously he's very busy. 183 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,760 And then it was actually funnily enough, Jason emailed him and 184 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,880 then from our teams e-mail and then we just get the e-mail 185 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,400 back. It's like a one line response 186 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,320 saying hi Jason, really super busy talk later. 187 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,280 Like it was like really just like like shortened to the 188 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,400 point. But it was amazing though, just 189 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,080 to like even have the opportunity I suppose to to know 190 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,320 people to get that e-mail and to send it, you know, And lo and 191 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,440 behold, like I remember looking through the AFR at work like a 192 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,520 month later and seeing James also appointed to the High Court 193 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,000 in Hong Kong. And I was like oh, that makes 194 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:09,560 sense why he's so busy. He's planning for an 195 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:11,240 international movie. I mean it's a very common thing 196 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,880 that Australian judges go and become expats over in Hong Kong 197 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,080 because of the sort of common law roots. 198 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:22,000 But yeah, and then there was a a really well known barrister, 199 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:29,040 Alan Myers, who reached out to and he was from Victoria. 200 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,240 I mean, obviously my Victorian roots, if people know about 201 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,040 that. I'm originally from Victoria and 202 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:39,160 so I had a personal connection to him and I thought for sure 203 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:40,800 that personal connection was going to hit. 204 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,760 But lo and behold, it turns out he really doesn't like to do 205 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,040 media interviews. So that just got completely 206 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:48,800 bounced back and I was a bit disappointed obviously. 207 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,120 But you sort of get up and I know Jason who's had a sort of 208 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,800 experience in this space, Jason, one of our team members, he, he 209 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,360 sort of gave good advice. You know, you you're going to 210 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,640 get knocked back a a couple times and you just got to get 211 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,240 back on the horse. And so that was really 212 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,040 interesting I suppose to look at it from from that perspective as 213 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,120 well to just keep going and keep going. 214 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:14,000 But I think it's also surprising when you get a guest that you 215 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,840 didn't think you were going to. I mean, the finale guest was 216 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,400 definitely fun that that goes along with that. 217 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,080 And hopefully in Season 2 and season three, we're having 218 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,480 guests that we're surprised that we can even get on. 219 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,720 So that's that. That's also an amazing part of 220 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:31,880 it. Yeah. 221 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,920 And I think with our reception more broadly, I mean talking 222 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,760 about some of the the numbers, how, how, how have we gone 223 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,600 there. I mean I know that from our 224 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:47,360 social media side of things with our shorts the the team that we 225 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:53,080 have is, is quite small and so and also I think there's 226 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,600 mistakes that have been made along the way. 227 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,040 But we're we're constantly adapting at the Australian 228 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,600 lawsuit. We're getting better and we will 229 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,520 continue to get better. I mean with the sort of more 230 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,640 short form content on TikTok and Instagram it has been very 231 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,760 similar with the sort of clips and stuff like that. 232 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,320 I know that we used to do like memes and like rankings and that 233 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,360 sort of stuff. Now part of that is obviously 234 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,640 difficult because you know the the sheer number of, I mean 235 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,600 we're all juggling job work and degrees and personal lives and 236 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,680 you know sport and you know all this sort of stuff like all on 237 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,920 top of that. So it can be really tricky to 238 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,520 have even to have this sort of, yeah, this sort of platform, the 239 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,960 site you're running. But I know with TikTok we've 240 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,280 just, I think we've just surpassed over 2000 falls, which 241 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,800 is a really good achievement. Instagram is sort of teetering 242 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,520 around the 1K mark, which is a bit frustrating. 243 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,200 I mean the growth side of things I think has definitely been a 244 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,280 bit stunted just by the similarness of content. 245 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,360 And also, like, it's also like all algorithmic. 246 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,400 Like, it's like there's apparently certain secrets that 247 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,160 you've got to unlock with the algorithm that I haven't paid 248 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,080 attention to. But I randomly see people like, 249 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,800 apparently, like, things like posting three times a week is 250 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,080 more optimal than five times a week. 251 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:04,840 So rather than once a day, you're posting it three times a 252 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,440 week that the algorithm likes that. 253 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,560 So you know, there's, there's all these sort of different 254 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,680 variables that go into play, which is like, yeah, you're 255 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,880 probably not utilizing that as much if you're not like someone 256 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,240 that's really invested, I suppose, like myself into like 257 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,360 social media, sort of the back end of social media and how 258 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,600 algorithms work and how to get the most likes and comments and 259 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,720 engagement, that sort of stuff. So I mean we had that real 260 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,360 explosion at the start I think, but obviously things have have 261 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,880 have the sort of growth has sort of slowed. 262 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,560 But I think that'll pick up towards the middle and the end 263 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,480 of the year especially that we're now I think managing 264 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,560 workflow a lot better. And so the engagement in terms 265 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,640 of like our social media sort of short form is really good. 266 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,960 But yeah, you you've basically been the the caretaker of the 267 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,840 LinkedIn and the Linkedin's been doing really well. 268 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,400 Yeah, it's it's been interesting to see. 269 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,560 I I think of course Instagram and TikTok more popular than 270 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,280 LinkedIn. Law students need to you guys 271 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,120 need to get off TikTok and start working on your midterm 272 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,040 assignments. But no Linkedin's. 273 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,760 Linkedin's interesting. You get this mix of 274 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,200 professionals and law students who are putting themselves out 275 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:19,600 there looking for jobs. And it's great because we can 276 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,400 track our engagement against law societies against other pages. 277 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,800 I think generally speaking we've left most of the law societies 278 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,280 in the dust in terms of our engagement statistics. 279 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,880 So I think at one point we were up 600% on the Sydney Uni Law 280 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,400 Society, which is just crazy for a page that, you know, started 281 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,920 four months ago. LinkedIn also really useful 282 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:49,320 because we can use it as a tool for networking and arranging, 283 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,800 you know, coffee catch UPS and lunches with people who we want 284 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:58,720 to speak to. You do just, you know, have to 285 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,440 be careful with making sure that you're, you know, gaming it 286 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,119 right, using the algorithm as you would on Instagram and 287 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:06,200 Tiktok. Yeah, yeah. 288 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:08,839 And that's the other thing is like like each social media 289 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:10,560 platform we're on 4 on social media. 290 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,720 We've got Spotify, LinkedIn, Tiktok, Instagram. 291 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:14,839 All of them have different algorithms. 292 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:16,839 I mean, like, look, I know like social media influence and 293 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,480 stuff, like how to game it all the time. 294 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,440 So I'm having a cry about the algorithm. 295 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,720 But it is actually very hard to keep track and remember like 296 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,000 okay. So LinkedIn works best when 297 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,760 you're doing things like polls and TikTok works best when 298 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,760 you're posting a lot and Instagram works best when you're 299 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,160 posting not as frequently. So obviously there's all these 300 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,360 sorts of different actors that come into play. 301 00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:40,840 I suppose we're managing that social media side of things. 302 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,360 So that's definitely something that, yeah, we've had to learn 303 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,360 and learn on the fly. But no, it's been, I think 304 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,600 really like, I don't know, I'm really proud of it. 305 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,160 I suppose the growth and the amount of team worked with we've 306 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,480 had with LinkedIn and everything else. 307 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,360 I mean, another thing that we've been doing is employing like 308 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,840 interns. So like people basically. 309 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,600 I mean we're not like on on paper where like a company and 310 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,080 yes we have someone sponsor us to pay for like and and they pay 311 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,960 for like our subscription cost. But you know us as as 312 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,840 individuals do not make any money whatsoever. 313 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,240 And so in fact it's the opposite if we put our own personal, 314 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,960 personal savings stuff in it. So in in terms of that, it's 315 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,120 like well, okay, how can we set up a mutual relationship between 316 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:36,880 us where we can, I suppose have a little bit of workload taken 317 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,640 off us and younger law students first years can gain really 318 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,720 valuable experience. So you know, I've got an intern, 319 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,200 I'm Richa, Richa, if you're listening, you're doing doing 320 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,280 great. This is great work. 321 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,960 So she helps me with things like guests, the creating questions 322 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,200 for guests and doing BIOS and sort of doing looking up on sort 323 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,920 of guest BIOS and that sort of thing. 324 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,240 We've also got Hazel that does sort of bit of social media 325 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,400 stuff and you know these people that they work you know one hour 326 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:08,840 a week if even and they they just add a little bit to us and 327 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,360 hopefully we're able to help them. 328 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:14,640 And you know I think it's really interesting to see that as well 329 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,040 to see to see that growth. I mean usually I think these the 330 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,120 market in terms of law students has all has been so dominated by 331 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,280 law firms in wanting that paralegal job and that sort of 332 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:26,240 stuff. But there's also such there's 333 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,200 such great experience elsewhere. I mean like yes I think the 334 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,920 Australian law student brands itself is sort of a bit of an 335 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,480 alternative to law societies. But if you're, I suppose if 336 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,320 you're listening to us, obviously get involved with us. 337 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,400 But if you have, well, I don't know I suppose the people that 338 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,960 aren't listening to us, if they're a part of the Law 339 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,880 Society, it's a great opportunity I think to be a part 340 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,600 of in terms of volunteering and and getting involved in that 341 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,560 sort of stuff. So just like any experience you 342 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,800 know I I ran the social director for our college, our residential 343 00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,080 college that was great experience. 344 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,040 So there's so many other great experiences that you can get 345 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,280 that more friends look so favorably upon in in when it 346 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,880 comes to it. So yeah, like that's that. 347 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,800 That's been really I think. Awesome. 348 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,440 We're having the little having our little intern program as 349 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,000 well. And it's kind of weird like you 350 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,000 went in for an interview for a job and they talked to you 351 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,840 about, talked to you about like, oh, they're employing like like 352 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,320 like managing interns and stuff like that. 353 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:27,720 Like it is very rare I think for any, any person really, not just 354 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,640 for law students, to have managerial skills. 355 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,680 Now I say that like as if it's like a really big thing. 356 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,200 Obviously it's like we conducted like little interviews and that 357 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,920 sort of stuff, which is, which was tricky, I suppose asking the 358 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,240 right questions and you feel, definitely feel a bit weird 359 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,320 because it's like you're so used to being on the other end of 360 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,000 being the employee employee rather than the employer. 361 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,360 I suppose in this instance you're just sort of vetting 362 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,000 people, like do they have, do they understand what they're 363 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,320 going to get out of it and that sort of stuff. 364 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,560 So yeah, I know that's been a really interesting experience as 365 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,160 well. In terms of being great, it's a 366 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,520 it's a privilege to be able to interview and and take on the 367 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,000 interns. I think because they have a lot 368 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:14,560 of license to contribute where such a small platform and they 369 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,400 can really get out of it what they put in. 370 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:25,600 So we've got 4 interns at the moment, which is a little bit 371 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,760 alarming because six months ago it was you and I working on this 372 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,080 in a residential college bedroom. 373 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:37,840 And now there's four, four partners, a corporate 374 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,640 sponsorship and four interns. Yeah, yeah. 375 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,680 So that all came about really quickly. 376 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,480 Yeah. But yes, I when I was 377 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:55,240 interviewing with a firm, they did ask me about the experience 378 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:01,280 that we've had with our interns. And you forget, I think, because 379 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:08,960 we're all so busy, the skills that we've developed during this 380 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:16,320 process, from posting the ad to vetting candidates, 381 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,240 interviewing. Of course, by that point you've 382 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,520 decided on the kind of person you sure don't want to take on 383 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,920 as an intern. Onboarding them, delegating work 384 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:36,760 to them, settling their work, letting them post their work, 385 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,440 and then the whole cycle rinses and repeats. 386 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,720 Of course, you're checking in with the other partners about 387 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,840 you know if their interns are at capacity or not, how the interns 388 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,920 can work together. At the moment, Hazel's helping 389 00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,560 me with planning a social event, so that will be announced soon. 390 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,920 We're excited about that. Because that'll be good that 391 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,880 yeah our I suppose we'll actually looking to sort of do 392 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,720 in physical stuff like and that that's definitely a big a big 393 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,640 process part of it. Well, that's where we're going. 394 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,960 I think I'm in our community now is fairly sizable, yeah. 395 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:20,200 Yeah. So we're in a position where we 396 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:27,200 can start offer in person events and you know I should think that 397 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,760 by the end of you know this, this year at least we will have 398 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:36,280 had probably 2-2 events and hopefully something with one of 399 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,280 our our partner firms. But that's going to be a great 400 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,720 way for our members to start leveraging the the community 401 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,160 more. I think of course the past six 402 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:55,440 months we've been, we've been online only and that'll be where 403 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:01,240 the rubber hits the road. I think for us, because of 404 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,360 course we are, we operate on a different model to the 405 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,520 conventional law societies. Law students from any university 406 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,920 can become a member and access our services. 407 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,720 And so I should think that you know there there will be 408 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,480 naturally more opportunities for law students to network at our 409 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,160 events. We're in Sydney at the moment. 410 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,120 There's no reason to think that, you know, we won't be expanding 411 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,400 to. I would assume first it would be 412 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:40,040 Melbourne and and probably Brisbane, Newcastle maybe, but 413 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:45,400 it it won't just be, you know, Sydney uni law students are 414 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,040 confined to the events that the Sydney Uni Law Society puts on. 415 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,840 I think that's a bit outdated. Maybe that's just because we're 416 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,080 New South students, but we did have to update the rankings. 417 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,720 Yeah. Yeah, recently, which is 418 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,320 something that we might get Jason to talk about. 419 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,680 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I suppose like to talking 420 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,560 about that shift as well. It's just been real. 421 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,560 I mean just noticing that entire thing. 422 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,480 It's just so it is it is very surreal I suppose like there 423 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,040 are. I mean yeah look obviously we 424 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,480 say as as New South students and stuff like that but obviously we 425 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,080 have friends at different law schools and I think it's it's 426 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,880 really good to really try and I suppose breakdown the the 427 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,120 traditional society model of only catering to your own 428 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:38,000 students. I think when you look at it why 429 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,680 aren't we working together and if the look, look I mean it it 430 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:49,560 it is hard because I suppose with employers and and whatever 431 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,400 else employers will say that like we'll obviously look at 432 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,080 different universities in different ways. 433 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,400 But I mean like you said for example very traditional 434 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,000 university that has a reputation of academic excellence and and a 435 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,640 very robust education and whatever else. 436 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,600 But I think more and more like, yes, those those views and stuff 437 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,080 are still being held and whatever else. 438 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,360 But more and more that's slowly starting to I think a road where 439 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,480 people, you know, you go into top law firms and you see a lot 440 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,160 more people from other Unis, a lot more people and from from 441 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,440 Bora array of Unis, especially in Sydney. 442 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,080 Like, yes, you got Interstate people coming over and stuff 443 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,840 like that. A lot more as well, which is a 444 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,760 bit a bit strange. I went to a I went to an event 445 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,440 at a big law firm and yeah, people from Canberra were there. 446 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,960 I was like, I completely forgot that if you want to do like 447 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,320 corporate law in Canberra, you probably coming up to Sydney, 448 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,400 shout out to all the Canberra fans, we got an intern from 449 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,280 Canberra. So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's good. 450 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,080 It's good. I think to have that and just 451 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,400 having these in person events like I don't know how we're 452 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,880 going to, I suppose manage that in terms of other States and 453 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,320 whatever else. I mean, look, we'll just play it 454 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,120 by ear and we'll just take a look, look at it as 455 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:02,760 opportunities to present themselves. 456 00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:08,160 Yeah, But I think right now Nick and I have a couple of years 457 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,440 left just yet in our law degree. So we're still Australian law 458 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,480 students for the time being and I suppose looking into the 459 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,960 future, yeah, we're obviously looking on for for more people 460 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,240 to to take on and to and to really contribute in some way, 461 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,960 shape or form and and truly make this a platform that people can 462 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,880 use and people can use for the long term. 463 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,960 You know there are several predecessors I think we've done 464 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,400 like a little bit of I suppose market research and looking at 465 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,920 stuff like that that there are sort of old older sort of 466 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,960 Australian law student like platforms I think. 467 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,600 But I think if we're able to really focus on the younger 468 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,600 generations and and and pass it on then that would be a really 469 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,480 good and amazing long standing mark. 470 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,520 And yeah, I think for us as well, it's just about broadening 471 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,800 everyone else's horizons. You know with Daphne Fong that 472 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,440 she was able to put us in contact with some writers from 473 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,880 the Lawyers Weekly, which is a publication service probably. 474 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,840 I reckon lawyers probably read the AFR the most and then 475 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,200 Lawyers week is probably up there is probably like the 476 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,680 second or definitely top five I think So, yeah, I mean they 477 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,680 sponsor all the law awards and whatever else. 478 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,920 But yeah, I think with on that note as well-being, able to sort 479 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,040 of potentially writing an article for them, so potentially 480 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,440 contributing into the wider sort of legal space as well I think 481 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,880 is just really, really awesome. And so yeah, it's just been an 482 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,080 amazing journey thus far. And I think looking into the 483 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,560 future, there are big things. Yes, we've got these physical in 484 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,640 person events. We've got growth on social media 485 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,880 and podcasting. We've got yeah hopefully bigger 486 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,200 and better guests. What we. 487 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,440 Yeah, we do we do have bigger and better guests coming out. 488 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,280 Obviously not that's obviously our guest this this season as 489 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,600 well. It's just been amazing. 490 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,360 You know it can't be any can't be any more grateful for their 491 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,760 contributions as well and being able to sit down and ask 492 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,800 questions and and really gain a a valuable understanding of how 493 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,760 the law works. So yeah, I suppose looking into 494 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,760 the future there's there's great things on the horizon. 495 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,240 So yeah. Do you have anything else to 496 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:25,040 add, Nick, closing remarks? Not other than keep your eyes 497 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,760 peeled for the last podcast guest. 498 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is a doozy. It is an amazing podcast guest 499 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,600 with Hugh McDermott, the other the well, probably just both 500 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,400 there, but I was going to say with the Hugh McDermott, I was 501 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,880 invited very gratefully grateful for that. 502 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,640 Invited to Parliament House in NSW due to conduct an interview 503 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,320 there. And let's just say with this 504 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,560 one, I was also invited back to Parliament House and I had got 505 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,680 to sit in the lovely jubilee room and interview a very, very 506 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,240 special guest. So yeah, stay tuned for that 507 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,480 next week. And yeah, thank you for 508 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,720 listening to a bit of a different episode and yeah, 509 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,920 we'll see you later. And so Nick, as I sign off with 510 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,640 most of my guests, thank you for joining me and best of luck for 511 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:12,160 the rest of the. Year. 512 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:12,720 Thanks, Ollie.