1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:04,880 On this week's telecast, I'm meeting with Matt Campion from 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,360 Spirit Studios, one of the production companies at the 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,720 cutting edge of the digital first revolution in the UK. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:12,800 You do. I'm all right. 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:14,680 Good to see you. Yeah, you too. 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,040 I don't think we've ever done a long chat on telecast when we've 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,240 had chats, we've had short chats around events that we've done 8 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:27,840 and we had a chat at Mipcom and but I don't think we've ever had 9 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,840 a sort of deep dive into into Spirit Studios. 10 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:36,880 Not a proper one, no. No, all right, well, well let's, 11 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:42,120 let's get into it then. And one of the things that I 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:47,800 think about spirit is really interesting, particularly for 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,920 probably more traditional TV production companies who look at 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,520 you and, you know, they see everything that you're doing. 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,000 And, and really, you know, one of the one of the production 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,880 companies at the cutting edge of the digital first space. 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:12,280 But actually you've been going for about 15 years, which is 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,040 really surprising, right? Because and I know that you 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,880 don't just do digital projects, you also, you know, you also do 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,600 linear shows or you're still working in linear if you like. 21 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:26,920 Is that a phrase working in linear? 22 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,560 I don't know but. Yeah, I don't think anyone's 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,280 working in it, but it's still happening. 24 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,000 Yeah, it's still happening. It's still, it's still holding 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,560 on. So why don't you take us right 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:45,480 back to the beginning then of Spirit and where you and Peter 27 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,280 met your partner in the business? 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,400 So Peter was my boss at Endemol before it became Endemol Shine 29 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:59,400 before it became Bannerjee. And he was, he ran digital media 30 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,640 for the, for the business and had anyone that used to work 31 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,240 there will remember the 6th floor Shepherd's Bush, I think 32 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:17,880 it was 2000 and, and six, they, they had a, a studio showdown in 33 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,520 Bristol where they used to make deal on no deal. 34 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:26,520 We launched gala bingo, had an Interactive TV channel on sky 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,040 and I was hired in to, to go and run that. 36 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,160 And what's, what's it? I was talking about this the 37 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,640 other day because what's interesting about it is this was 38 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:41,840 pre social media. Just no. 39 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,600 It was on the cusp of Facebook just taking off. 40 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:51,560 But we would, the channel was live 8 hours every night and we 41 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,480 had a team of about 40 people that would run different shifts 42 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,200 and people could buy tickets through the red button. 43 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:06,280 And then my job as exec would be to oversee the channel and the 44 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,560 games and the production model and you know, and the marketing 45 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,400 and all that stuff. And then what I would do is the 46 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:18,000 following day after a show, I would go in and I'd get the VHSS 47 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,360 of the night before and I would get the producers to write in 48 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,320 the ticket sales against each game at the time, against 49 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,680 timecode. So I could then go in the next 50 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:30,760 day. And I would fill in a 51 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:37,040 spreadsheet that would basically tell me when ticket sales spiked 52 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:38,960 or when they went up, when they dipped. 53 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,520 And then I would watch back to their timecodes and see what we 54 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,760 did and whether we could recreate that. 55 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,200 And what if there was something that happened then that like, 56 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,240 you know, and essentially I had this, I had this, I'm a bit 57 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:58,560 allergic to Excel spreadsheets And, but, but then I did get 58 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,480 really obsessed with it. I really like analytics, but I 59 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,200 got obsessed with this spreadsheet. 60 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,120 And essentially it was like the IT was me sort of coming up with 61 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,920 my own analytics in the way that we use it all the time now in 62 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,160 digital to see, you know, retention spikes, audience 63 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,399 lifts, all those kind of things, engagement. 64 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,920 And and so I met Peter doing that job. 65 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,920 And that was the thing that really sort of, I think it was 66 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,600 that project that when we left in the mall and set up Spirit 67 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:34,520 was sort of the idea was could we create a business that was 68 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:44,120 really future thinking and could create products, programs, 69 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,920 social media builds, whatever it was that really could understand 70 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,560 those digital audiences, learn from the results and and build 71 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,120 audience, grow audiences. And I've, I kid you not, at the 72 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,440 very beginning, 15 years ago, our sort of North Star was that 73 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,680 we felt the future would be about not only being able to 74 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,400 produce a show, but being able to how know, but being able to 75 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,680 know how to do all of the digital marketing around it and 76 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:18,480 build the noise around it. And it just took 15 years for it 77 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,120 took 15 years for the, for the, for the market to really mature. 78 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,200 I suppose we were very early on, but in those early days, I 79 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:31,280 suppose the 1st 10 years of spirit we built, we've built a 80 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:34,320 name for ourselves in, in becoming a digital producer. 81 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,680 We would spin off other people's shows. 82 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,920 So we do things like we do the spin off show for Made in 83 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:44,880 Chelsea and we did skins and we did Glee in in Los Angeles. 84 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,920 And then we helped build social media fan bases for Who Wants to 85 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,720 Be a Millionaire and Sony shows and all that kind of stuff. 86 00:05:53,160 --> 00:06:00,480 And then a few years in, we, because we've been going back to 87 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:06,600 producing content, we, we got Trigger Happy recommissioned. 88 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,480 I don't know if you remember that about probably be about 10 89 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,000 years ago now. And we did 2 series of that 90 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,640 Channel 4 online. And then we did two TV specials. 91 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,720 And that's when we were like, oh, you know, actually the, the 92 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,760 market's taking a lot longer. Maybe we should go back into 93 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,640 linear. And then the stand up sketch 94 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,240 show was born, which became a long running series for ITV and 95 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,720 we did multiple other TV shows here and there. 96 00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:36,320 And and then and then obviously lockdown happened. 97 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,240 We had a change of ownership and from our original investor. 98 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,920 And then Channel 4 came on board four years ago and Channel 4 99 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,920 really have helped change the the whole sort of face of spirit 100 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,320 and the the structure of the business and allowed us to 101 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:58,640 invest in people. And we've got our own studio now 102 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:04,000 and our own post production and we were sort of a bit of a one 103 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,960 stop shop for content production and that allows us to be able to 104 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,480 operate really seamlessly in the current market. 105 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,520 And why did Channel 4 invest in you then? 106 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:20,480 I mean, what was it that you know, that that stood out about 107 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,720 spirit that perhaps, you know, if we put ourselves four years 108 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,960 ago, you know, the start of the decline or the noticeable start 109 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,000 of the decline started to happen when it came comes to linear TV. 110 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,920 But what is it? What is it that they saw in you 111 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,240 that made them wanted to invest in you? 112 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,840 I think it was the, I think it was the fact that we were really 113 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,600 multifaceted and that we still understood the traditional 114 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,720 world. We we could operate in the 115 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,920 traditional world, but we really were all about the new. 116 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:59,400 And I think I think it's really difficult to make money in 117 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,200 digital. And so if you're an entrepreneur 118 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,040 that has to be able to survive off digital revenues, then you 119 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,200 clearly know what you're doing. And I think the fact that when 120 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,240 they they looked at under the Bonnet with spirit and they 121 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,320 could see the size of some of the platforms and the brands 122 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:23,520 that we've built over the years, some of the big brand podcasts 123 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,160 that we've done. When I talk about brands, I mean 124 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:27,560 the brands that we've created ourselves. 125 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,680 When you look at the Lion Whisperer, when you look at our 126 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:37,760 ability to spin content off into the social world, we're able to, 127 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,520 we're able to make money in that in that space. 128 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,240 And we we do it all the time for actual brands as well. 129 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:51,440 And so I think we felt like a grown up version of of of a 130 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:56,080 business from the new world. So well, let's let's talk about 131 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,160 the business then and the the key pillars of revenue. 132 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,600 Because one of the reasons I created an event or one of the 133 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,960 reasons that I get one of the things I get asked most is like, 134 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,400 yeah, but how do you make money in digital, which is why I 135 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:16,000 create an event called that you must get asked that all the time 136 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,560 as well. So can you just talk us through 137 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:23,040 your different pillars of revenue where you generate 138 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,400 income? Yeah. 139 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:31,000 So we do four things. We're called Spirit Studios 140 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,640 because we run a number of different studios, which are 141 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,400 essentially different disciplines in the business. 142 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,080 So we make television, we call it originals. 143 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,240 I think that's becoming more of the norm now. 144 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:49,920 And originals really is sort of longer form single or serialized 145 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,440 content that can sit on a broadcaster, can sit on a 146 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,600 streamer, it can even sit obviously on YouTube. 147 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:04,480 So we make originals we then and in that and in that department, 148 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,120 we were predominantly known for comedy for a long time, but now 149 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:16,000 we make a lot of documentary. This year, I think we are, we're 150 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,040 going to be doing, we've got a big order on true crime this 151 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:25,560 year. We are doing a lot of weekly 152 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:29,960 shows for Channel 5. We're doing drama. 153 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,840 We we're entering into reality this year. 154 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,280 And so the business on the television side is, is growing, 155 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,760 but it's growing in, in the new world. 156 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,280 And I'll come back to that in a minute. 157 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,960 We then make podcasts. We produce a number of podcasts, 158 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,600 but again, podcasts are shows that are becoming the new 159 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,400 television in some ways. And and we have a a multi camera 160 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,040 studio with a team that is really knowledgeable across 161 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:08,880 digital and television. We have, you know, we've 162 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,800 invested in a set studio with multiple sets and, and all that 163 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,040 and all that stuff so that we can produce end to end quality 164 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,040 visualized podcasts day in day out. 165 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,160 And we also do post production in house for that as well. 166 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,720 We even do the online that allows us to sort of that allows 167 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:34,480 us to be really cost effective, but to also change the business 168 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,640 deal with the broadcaster. And I'll come back to that in a 169 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,520 minute as well. Then we make brand new content. 170 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:39,840 We do a lot of brand new content. 171 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:47,720 We work with third party agencies and we do a lot in the 172 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,720 sports arena, in football and in Formula One. 173 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:56,920 And then the 4th studio is we run a number of YouTube 174 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,400 channels. So we've got round about 500 175 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,120 YouTube channels and growing in our multi channel network. 176 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,320 So that's distribution, that's digital distribution. 177 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,040 And so for us there we are working with third party 178 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,240 producers like exploiting all catalogues. 179 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,080 We're working with people that create original content. 180 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,280 We obviously have a number of our own channels in that, in 181 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,480 that MCN and we have we have channel managers that help us 182 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:25,800 grow those channels, get them into monetization. 183 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:32,760 And and then obviously it's run like a professional network. 184 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,240 And for anyone that doesn't understand what a multi channel 185 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,240 network is on YouTube, it is a professionally run network of 186 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,320 YouTube channels. There's not many of them in the 187 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:43,880 world. We are very lucky to be one of 188 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,520 the few. 50. Others about 50 of us yeah yeah 189 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,360 we Little dot everyone on there who Little dot are are the 190 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,720 biggest in the UK if not the world and they are a phenomenal 191 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,520 business one of all three biggest businesses. 192 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,920 We hadn't really ever thought about doing that even though we 193 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,680 had the the the functionality and the capability because we 194 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:14,400 were producer. But as we really move now, as 195 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,040 the industry rapidly changes, we see ourselves having to be able 196 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:20,640 to do all of it. Really, you've got to be able to 197 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,640 do production through to distribution to be a real one 198 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,720 stop shop of the future. You know, our ambition really is 199 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,480 to be a is to be a next generation super indie and even 200 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,360 a destination in the end where we could be the hub that people 201 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,520 come to watch spirits content. Could we reinvent the sort of 202 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,680 the, you know, the, the streamer model and, and be a one stop hub 203 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:48,440 for everything we do? And so those 4 studios, they 204 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,720 sort of feed into each other in lots of ways. 205 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,800 And then obviously now there's the vertical content world 206 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,800 that's come along, right? So you could say it's a fifth 207 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,760 studio. We're doing micro drama. 208 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,120 We're also about to start in reality in that space. 209 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,840 And that space really has come along. 210 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,400 And it's really like, I don't think anyone ever saw that to, 211 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:10,520 you know, saw that come in. And that's, that's sort of like 212 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:17,000 come, I remember once working with a, a mental health expert 213 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,640 on our IM hole, a mental health brand. 214 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:25,720 And he, we were talking about how when people have breakdowns 215 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,400 and it's when they let their problems stack up like a imagine 216 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,960 like a stack of pancakes. And then all these problems 217 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,760 build up. And if you don't keep on top of 218 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,200 your problems, if you don't keep that sort of self-care and all 219 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,680 that, then eventually you'll have a stack and then something, 220 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,880 a juggernaut will come from nowhere and knock it over. 221 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:45,920 And that's why people have like these meltdowns. 222 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,760 And that's pretty much what I've seen. 223 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,840 A vertical drama, like the industry's gone. 224 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,640 Shit, that's fucked. That's Oh no. 225 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,120 Oh, and then all of a sudden this come along and bang, and 226 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,440 then even the streamers are gone. 227 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,640 What? And and so you're seeing this 228 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,160 thing explode, generating billions and billions of 229 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:08,920 dollars, being one of the like wildfire across devices. 230 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,880 And then what we're seeing now is like the streamers and the 231 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,360 social platforms all rush to try and get in on this market. 232 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,840 And then if you look at now at like a Netflix, Netflix has like 233 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,480 really high end super like films and amazing series. 234 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,920 It has podcasts now that we're seeing them really go into the 235 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,840 market on it's got mobile games and verticals come in. 236 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,920 And so really like the future is this sort of one stop 237 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,280 entertainment hub and which is about retaining that customer 238 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,400 all day long and giving them the best value for their 239 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,400 subscription money. And so no wonder they've rushed 240 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,920 to add verticals to it. And so as a, as a business, we 241 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,280 do those 4 disciplines or there's five things. 242 00:15:54,520 --> 00:16:01,120 But actually IP 360 is our, is our business model. 243 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,160 And it has been for a long time, but it really makes more sense 244 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,480 now than it's ever made before. And people actually understand 245 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,280 what we do because I think for a long time people didn't really 246 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,800 understand what we we were saying these words and they were 247 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,080 like, what IP? What? 248 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:20,520 But IP 360 really means that you can create a brand that can 249 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,000 serve its purpose as a linear show. 250 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,840 It can serve its purpose sit on a streamer, it can go onto 251 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,520 YouTube, it can go as a podcast, it could be a drama. 252 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,760 You know, it can do lots of different things all at the same 253 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,720 time because audiences are, we are in an attention war. 254 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,360 Like it's, you know, the attention economy is, is all 255 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,640 anyone's talking about. And us as users have been pulled 256 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,280 in so many different directions that actually like what you're 257 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,120 going to do is hit them with your brand everywhere they are. 258 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,680 And that's what we do and that's our aim. 259 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,600 And so our business models changed. 260 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,360 We still, we still do commissions obviously like you 261 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,079 know, like we are here to build revenue. 262 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:06,440 That's what that's how business works. 263 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:12,560 But at the same time we we also want to work with and are 264 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:18,000 working with a number of broadcaster, streamers, content, 265 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,839 finance talent to build always on three to five year builds. 266 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:26,079 We're we're looking long term like how do we create a brand 267 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,040 that can turn into a big juggernaut? 268 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,120 You know, you look at The Lion Whisperer now, our biggest, it's 269 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,280 been going for 12 years. It's huge. 270 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,880 It's done billions of views. It's got millions of followers 271 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,440 and subscribers. It it's it's own business. 272 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,520 And so for us, what we're doing now is working with lots of 273 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,480 partners. We've managed to unlock that 274 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,160 world because people now see us as that future production 275 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,680 company that really has a safe pair of hands that goes OK, We 276 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,160 know we've seen you do this for the last 15 years. 277 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,720 We know that if we invest our money in you, you're going to 278 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:07,640 you're going to return on it. So what is it about creating 279 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,480 that IP? What you know, how can you tell 280 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,520 what IP to create that's going to live across all those 281 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,160 platforms? Well, you can't. 282 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:26,560 You can't. What you can't do is just stick 283 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,360 your finger in the air. Pick an idea and, and go with 284 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,000 and go with it and hope for the best because there are lots of 285 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,600 factors that change the shape of what works all the time. 286 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:43,240 And I'll give you an example of what I mean by that is like a 287 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:52,040 couple of years ago, we had some big insight that creators were 288 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,640 starting to really work in the podcasting space. 289 00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:01,600 And, and that food was an area that lots of brands wanted to be 290 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,760 in and to sponsor and to spend money in, but wasn't very well 291 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,160 served. And so there's a, there's a gap 292 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,920 there in the market, right? And so we launched a couple of 293 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:21,640 projects in that space and really popular with its 294 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,400 audience, really high retention rates, but couldn't get them to 295 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,680 break out. And then and then within that 12 296 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,120 months of that of that, of that show not really getting to the 297 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:40,520 levels that we wanted it to, you get new insight, which is we've 298 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,280 seen now that the podcasting space has become so crowded that 299 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,280 only really big names work. So names that are really massive 300 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,880 broadcasters that you've spent years listening to their voices 301 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,680 maybe as radio stars or as chat show hosts, They're the ones 302 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,360 that have only got the real chance of breaking through. 303 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,320 And So what you see there is a maturity in the podcasting thing 304 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,520 where podcasting has become like ATV chat show now. 305 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,320 And actually it's become so mainstream that it's it's, it's 306 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,320 sort of really similar to television. 307 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,280 And then you see that actually. Podcasting has suddenly flipped 308 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,360 like that within 12 months to being more consumed on YouTube 309 00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:24,960 than any other platform. And so now your monetization 310 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,280 models changed because previously it was all about 311 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:34,560 listens and listens would give you a higher CPM would so cost 312 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,480 per thousand listens would be would be more than in video. 313 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,320 And so you would operate in a way that would allow would, 314 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,560 would, would mean that your show would do lots of different 315 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,160 things in audio in order to make more money. 316 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,400 But now you've been hijacked by by YouTube, which is a longer, 317 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,880 slower burn and less money, right, until you get to a real 318 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,360 scale. And so you've got to change all 319 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,920 the time that we call it the moving sands of digital, right. 320 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:04,280 And so going back to your question, how do you pick a 321 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,480 project? It's really difficult. 322 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,480 What, what you've got to do I think is look at, well, let's 323 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,000 look at, let's take a good example, right. 324 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:21,560 So we've, it's been announced we, we are doing a joint venture 325 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,520 project with Hearst. So we work with Hearst a lot. 326 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,440 We make a lot of true crime documentaries for them. 327 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,600 But we really wanted to launch something in the history space 328 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,800 because we know that history is really big. 329 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:41,560 I think a big Evergreen subjects are a way you can build legacy 330 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:46,280 and brand in digital. And so with Hearst, we wanted to 331 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,680 work out what could we do in the history space that felt really 332 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,440 different. And so we went to Hearst and we 333 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,080 said, how do you fancy investing in a brand with us? 334 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,040 And, you know, they were really excited by that. 335 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,400 And actually you've seen they've launched their their YouTube 336 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,280 canvas project as well, which is going to do a suite of their own 337 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,120 IP in the same way. And so it was really good 338 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:15,160 timing, but part of the part of part of the sort of puzzle there 339 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,720 is. And I can't wait for people to 340 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,160 see what we're going to launch because I think it's really, 341 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,480 really exciting because it's actually sort of slightly more 342 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,800 entertaining. But it's a really big broad 343 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,640 subject. And it came with some real 344 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:32,920 specific insight that we felt would would be the key to 345 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,040 unlocking the audience. This because we know there's a 346 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,960 huge amount of search online for what, for what we're doing. 347 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,960 And So what we've got with them is a project that has a, a 348 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,240 legacy business that knows how to monetise history already. 349 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,040 We've got ATV channel, Sky history that is willing to do a 350 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,520 first look on any TV output from the brand. 351 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,320 So you remember, the brand isn't just digital. 352 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,240 The, the brand is digital plus linear or streaming. 353 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,600 So it's, it's originals plus digital. 354 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:05,760 And so from, from word from the from day one, we can launch 355 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,440 something that is a weekly show that builds, you know, a 356 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:14,360 consistent audience and has that consistent weekly content that 357 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,760 people love that they can watch and listen to and engage with 358 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,800 the different places. But then that brand as it 359 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,280 builds, can also go off and do multiple TV series at the same 360 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,960 time. And, and, and so like, because 361 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:34,360 there's that Venn diagram of sky history, us and Hearst, it means 362 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:38,000 that right from from the get go, there's an inbuilt audience what 363 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,560 we're doing. So I think you have to factor in 364 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,600 lots of thinking about when you launched the mink of what I 365 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,880 would really discourage people for doing is just go in like, 366 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,400 oh, I've, I've met some, I've met someone that really wants to 367 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,360 launch a thing and let's give it a go because you can spend a 368 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:55,280 long, long time just treading water. 369 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,680 And you also need patience. That's the other big thing I've 370 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,320 said to it. I've already said it a few 371 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,280 times, three to five years, like don't think think long term ATV 372 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,680 series might be a few episodes. These days it's 4 episodes if 373 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,080 you're lucky. But but in digital you've got to 374 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,920 think of like three to five year builds. 375 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,400 Because what what you do in digital, when you understand how 376 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,800 it works is that you, you change path constantly and you iterate 377 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,800 and you optimize and you, you get feedback and you see what's 378 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,640 working and what's not working and you tweak the system until 379 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,280 you get the engine really, really purring and. 380 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,320 It compounds over time, doesn't it? 381 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,680 In terms of the amount of content, you're building more 382 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,200 and more content in that library. 383 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,920 Your views never go down. Obviously you're you know it's 384 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,920 only ever going to go one way. Starts once you start creating 385 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,480 content. It's Atomic Habits. 386 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,480 Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear? 387 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,400 Oh, there's a brilliant, I think it's one of the biggest 388 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,040 newsletters in the world, 321. I recommend that to anyone 389 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,720 that's watching or listening to this. 390 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,600 Go and go to James Clear's website. 391 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,160 He wrote a book called Atomic Habits, which essentially works 392 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,560 for anything in life. It can work for fitness, it can 393 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,120 work for business health. If you do, if you have, if you 394 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,720 build a habit into your life, you do the same thing every day. 395 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,480 You don't see the difference on a daily basis. 396 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:16,640 It's built against the gym, isn't it? 397 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,320 Yeah, I've, I've never done more than two days in a row, so I 398 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,760 wouldn't know what happens when you compound work in the gym. 399 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,000 I know what happens when you compound drinking every day. 400 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,000 But atomic habits are that thing of like essentially it's tiny 401 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,560 little atoms. Every day you're collecting 402 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,040 atoms and then after a year or two years or however long it 403 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,760 takes, that atomic explosion happens. 404 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,880 And that's when you get that real lift off. 405 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:52,400 And I would say private parts was, there's a, there's a graph 406 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,520 on the private parts podcast chart from years ago where for 407 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,800 the first year, I look back at it often it's the hockey stick 408 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,520 effect. It like did nothing for the 1st 409 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,480 12 months. And then in the January the year 410 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,120 afterwards, it suddenly went so steep and it was like all of a 411 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:15,320 sudden that that that you said compounded interest is. 412 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,960 Was, was that because of presumably that was because of 413 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,400 all the learnings, all the episodes that you've been 414 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:22,880 tweaking and tweaking and tweaking. 415 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,360 Then maybe one of those caught light, right? 416 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:31,120 And and and really hit the spot and then then obviously the 417 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:32,880 catalog starts to hit the spot as well. 418 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,400 Remember I could, I could give you a real world example of how 419 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,840 it happened. So when we first started it used 420 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,640 to be Jamie and Francis and they were it was 2 friends. 421 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,920 This is Jamie Lang. Jamie Lang, the Francis Ball and 422 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,760 they X-Men in Chelsea stars and they would talk each week about 423 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,880 their diary. So they would talk about what 424 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,320 they've been doing during that week and there'd be funny 425 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,920 moments and then they would talk about really funny old things. 426 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,880 And then and then they started realizing that the thing that 427 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,640 people liked on social media was when they started talking about 428 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,840 their awkward dating, sex, kissing, all that. 429 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,440 All that's kind of like funny. The sordid secrets. 430 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:14,800 That's why it was called Private Parts. 431 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,040 It was sort of like the stuff that you'd write in a diary, but 432 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,840 you wouldn't say out loud. And they realized that those are 433 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,520 those are the bits that were really taking off. 434 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:28,080 And then we had a producer, Pete Strauss. 435 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:35,240 You remember Pete join us. Pete was was also working on our 436 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,160 comedy slate. So Pete was who I developed the 437 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,280 stand up sketch show with and Pete started obsessed with stand 438 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,560 up, always going to stand up. So he suggested that we started 439 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,040 getting stand up comedians in as guests. 440 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,720 Now we started with the stand ups that were on the circuit 441 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,200 that we could get that fancy coming along and meeting Jamie 442 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,000 and Francis. Then bit by bit the word spread. 443 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,160 This is the compound compounding. 444 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,120 Bit by bit the word spread that this was a really funny podcast 445 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,800 to come on. So the names started getting 446 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,720 bigger and bigger and bigger. And so eventually we were having 447 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,120 really big comedian names on the show and the show became a 448 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:15,320 comedy hit. And then that was the moment 449 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,560 where it suddenly took off, because then we were getting big 450 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,600 name comedians with big social fan bases that would come on the 451 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,960 show and we could create really funny clips. 452 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,680 And that's interesting going back to the learning there is 453 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:33,200 that looking at digital first, as you know, a lot of people are 454 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,480 are now looking at, you know, the commissions have dried up, 455 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,920 all that advertising revenues gone into social video, no more 456 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,600 commissions. Where do we go? 457 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,240 Let's look at digital. Lots of people seem to be doing 458 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,840 well in digital. It's not the lifeboat or it's 459 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,120 not the immediate replacement for that loss of income, is it? 460 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,480 I think that's really important to. 461 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,920 Say, I think if you ran into the digital house, you'd be like, 462 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,760 yeah, what? Someone throw me some arm bands. 463 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,400 That's what I said earlier on. You've got to, you've got to, 464 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,040 you've got to kind of it's, it's an entrepreneurial play, yeah. 465 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,840 And you've got to, you've got to like, you've got to understand 466 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,080 that it, it's one of those things that takes time. 467 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,160 If, if you, if you are entrepreneurial and you, and you 468 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,560 understand about building business, then you have a one 469 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,840 year, a three-year, A5 year, 10 year strategy that changes all 470 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,400 the time. You, you re, you know, you re 471 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,920 update your, your strategy, but you have like, you have these 472 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,600 missions and these goals and you have a North Star. 473 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,320 Digital's the same thing. And so don't create something, 474 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,760 put it out and expect it to catch on fire. 475 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,720 I mean, don't get me wrong, we've launched things that have, 476 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,680 but they're an anomaly and they're difficult. 477 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,480 You know, that's sort of like, that's like creating a number 478 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,280 one hit. You know, I think I do. 479 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,680 It's a bit like a record business. 480 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,520 Think of the record business, right? 481 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,480 Look at how many recording artists don't make it and then 482 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,600 how many do. That's digital, Yeah. 483 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,240 And, and so as you've got, it's a mindset change. 484 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,680 It's also a mindset change in the money as well. 485 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,600 Commissioning that the traditional world is B to B1, 486 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,520 business pays another. The digital world is B to C It's 487 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,840 direct to consumer. It's business to consumer. 488 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,640 It's you are, you have to get your heads around. 489 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,720 Lots of little, little, little pockets of money, you know, 490 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,040 thousands of little pockets of money there rather than one big 491 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,600 take paycheck, isn't it? And it's, and you know, the, 492 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,240 the, the key to this is as you say, direct to consumer. 493 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,400 It's about becoming the broadcaster yourself. 494 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,280 You won't, that's the thing. Building that community and, and 495 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,840 creating the community around the content that you're that 496 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,440 you're, that you're creating. Look at Go Hanger. 497 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:00,880 I mean, what an incredible story. 498 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,480 Yeah, Go Hanger. Brilliant. 499 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,480 Absolutely brilliant. I'm so pleased with them. 500 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,680 Like they have built something that has come through pure 501 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,560 passion. You know, the rest is history. 502 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,920 I think was one of their first. It's coming through pure passion 503 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,160 of, you know, you know, and and obviously, like they've got Gary 504 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,880 alike and the rest is football. And like that's you know, it 505 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,520 really does help to have that Halo effect. 506 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,560 But they've built something that are they they really know their 507 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,240 niches. Don't know. 508 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,080 They really know their niches so well and they're really good at 509 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,000 finding their talent that are going to front their shows. 510 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,880 And then, I mean, they don't need anyone else because now 511 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,600 what they're doing is what the future is, is what we're doing. 512 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,280 You, you own your own IP and then you sell it to the 513 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,880 broadcasters or the streamers. Yeah, yeah. 514 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,640 What's their deal with? What's their deal with Netflix? 515 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,800 10 million or something? Yeah, and there's licensing, 516 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,320 it's live events. The the they're doing a big show 517 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,280 at the on the South Bank, aren't they? 518 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,920 I think this year, later on this year with a number of their 519 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,560 their formats. Yeah, it's very, very clever 520 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,880 play. So, so would you say then as you 521 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,640 said, it's a longer term play, it's a more entrepreneurial 522 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:24,200 play. Do you think there is a risk of 523 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,680 some businesses jumping feet first into this without really 524 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,400 the you know, without that you can spend a lot of money quite 525 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,520 quickly, can't you, in digital? You, you, we're already seeing 526 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,360 it. Yeah, we're already seeing it. 527 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:45,200 And it's and it's, you've got to find a Yeah, that's my yeah, but 528 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,880 that worries me. You're going to see, you're 529 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,280 going to see a lot of, you're going to see a lot of money 530 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:57,760 wasted and and a lot of unfortunate. 531 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,840 What's the word like? I think it's going to put people 532 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,600 off because if they don't get instant, everyone's used to 533 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,720 instant success. You get a Commission, it's 534 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,120 gratification, you've done it, it's an instant win and it's big 535 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,160 money. Well, not anymore, but you know, 536 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,280 at one point it was unless you're high end TV. 537 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:21,680 And so like if you if you go if you go 2 two feet first into 538 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,880 digital and you run at it and you put and you hire a load of 539 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,680 people to do it, you're going to waste money real quick. 540 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:35,000 You've got to what you've got to do is find a way of investing in 541 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,960 it. So it feels like to begin with 542 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,840 like a business passion project. I think that's probably unless 543 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,280 look, once you're establishing what you're doing, then great, 544 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,160 like all the big investment because you know what you're 545 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000 doing right. But even if we've even now 546 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:56,600 spirit after 15 years, we, we, we can raise significant 547 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,680 investment to build digital projects because we're a safe 548 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,840 pair of hands. But we wouldn't, we wouldn't 549 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,400 ever spend the money in a stupid way. 550 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,840 We'd still, we still go lean and mean and build things minimal 551 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,639 viable products. You've heard that a million 552 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:17,560 times because the things fail and things don't catch fire. 553 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,560 And finding that that real hit isn't the easiest thing to do. 554 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,400 It's the record label model, you know, like you turn up the 555 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,199 investment once you know, you've seen real science, but don't go 556 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,520 into this investing in it in a big way. 557 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,080 Try and find a way of of doing it cheaply and learning and 558 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:40,600 seeing how you know, like what I love the most about the business 559 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,480 at the moment. And the business has been 560 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,480 through so many different iterations over the years. 561 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,239 But what I love about the business at the moment is that 562 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,199 everyone in the office is so excited about growth. 563 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,480 We keep, I keep saying to me, it's funny how like Linear's 564 00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,040 managing decline, Digital's managing growth and every day 565 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,040 on, on the, the group chats across all the different 566 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,720 projects, you can see people feeding in graphs and new 567 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,800 milestones being hit and the new figures go up on the board and 568 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,240 like, and ah, we've just hit monetization or, you know, it's 569 00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:17,000 exciting. It's what it's watching 570 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,680 something, it's watching your baby grow and it's, and it's 571 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,400 seeing that success. And then that kind of, I always 572 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,640 had right at the very, very beginning this like this sort of 573 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,640 dream that the, the white coats would meet with the creatives 574 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,120 once a week. And now it happens. 575 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:31,200 I mean, they don't wear white coats. 576 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,320 So that's basically like the distribution team who's 577 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,200 overseeing the thumbnails and the, and the titles and the the 578 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,520 SEO and the discoverability and the launch process and all of 579 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,240 that coming together and feeding back to the creative teams to 580 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:54,080 say, you know what we did on that last episode, It's 581 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,600 interesting. It's that it's back to you said 582 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,720 the red button when you when you were back at end of morning 583 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:01,400 saying a bit that actually worked. 584 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:03,480 Yeah, it's kind of the same, right? 585 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,480 It's exactly the same that that was the bit where, you know, I'd 586 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:13,000 spent years in live, live TV being a studio director. 587 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,080 And, and then when I took that job at Endemol, that was the 588 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,640 first time that I'd started seeing results, audience 589 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,200 interaction and an audience feedback on content because that 590 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,760 doesn't really exist on. We didn't exist before social 591 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,800 media. And so like, yeah, so now like 592 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,680 the team, I mean, I mean, I say they mean weekly. 593 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,640 They, they, they talk all the time. 594 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,720 Like throughout the day they're talking. 595 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:40,280 In fact, just before I came here today, we were chatting about, 596 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:47,000 we were talking about one of the shows that we make for Channel 5 597 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:53,360 catching up with the Royals about how there's one bit that's 598 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,280 become really, really big with the audience. 599 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,680 And we're getting like tons of emails and comments and like 600 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,760 interaction comes from all over the place, the engagement. 601 00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:06,720 And so this week that, you know, we've got a recording on 602 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:12,160 Wednesday and they're going to double down on on Part 1 on read 603 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,280 on doing more of that particular thing. 604 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,800 And so like, because they know that when they clip that out, it 605 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,200 works and it builds and they know that they're getting 606 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,520 subscribers off the back of it. And so like, that's the kind of 607 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,440 thing that like you can't do in in television, which don't get 608 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,840 me wrong, I love making telly. Like it's brilliant being able 609 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:37,400 to work on on a really big project and, and you know, and 610 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,440 have that kind of level of budget, but the one thing you 611 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,720 don't get Intel is that instant feedback and you can't change 612 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:47,680 anything instantly. Well, now, interestingly, the 613 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,080 the vertical content world, right, those apps have AI behind 614 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,600 them. And so if one of the micro drama 615 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,080 films isn't performing well or drops off at a certain episode 616 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,840 point, they can re edit and re upload and try and keep the 617 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,280 audience the audience for longer. 618 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,160 That's in, that's. The idea of picture lock doesn't 619 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,960 exist in the digital world, which isn't what's free, what's 620 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,840 really freeing, isn't it? And it's, and it's just 621 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,160 listening to what the audience says and like, and, and creating 622 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,080 content for them that you know, that they're that they're 623 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,760 commenting on and they're feeding back on. 624 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:27,040 And like, you know, like having there's so much to keep up with 625 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,360 algorithms you have to keep up with. 626 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,920 Like in, I don't know if you've seen, but Instagram now have 627 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,520 changed their algorithms from highly edited clips. 628 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,400 Like we've all sort of seen, you know, a lot of our trailers for 629 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:47,280 our pods have, you know, like are sort of really dynamic and 630 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,480 have lots of graphics and music and they they hooky, you know, 631 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,320 but they are de prioritising those edits and they're moving 632 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,240 more towards selfie video people being authentic and telling you 633 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,920 what's coming up on this week's show and actually talking to you 634 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,200 like a human because I suppose because of the rise of AI. 635 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,160 But and and so you've got to keep on top of that all the 636 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,200 time. That changes. 637 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:15,840 Yeah. So finally then before we go 638 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:21,360 into Story of the Week, what does the next phase of Spirit 639 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,840 Studios look like? Then you've talked about you're 640 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,840 in branded content, you're in podcasts, you're in traditional 641 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,800 TV, you're in 360 creating those brands right across for every 642 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,040 every platform. You're in micro drama, other 643 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,320 vertical video projects. What's next? 644 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,920 Then what's what's what? What really interested me is 645 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,720 what you said about the Super indie and building a super indie 646 00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:52,560 of the future in this sort of digital space. 647 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,320 I mean, is that is that, is that the future? 648 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,560 Is that what you're absolutely focused on and what does that 649 00:39:58,560 --> 00:39:59,400 look like? Yeah, Yeah. 650 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:04,520 That is, I think that is an that is our sort of definitely our 651 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,360 North Star is. I think what you'll see us do 652 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,120 over the next few years is build out multiple brands that you see 653 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,520 everywhere and lots of them. Some will work, some won't work, 654 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,040 but really doubling down on that. 655 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:26,760 We are building more and more into scripted because I, I, I do 656 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:32,000 think that spirit has a part to play in high end TVI do I, I 657 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,920 kind of feel like what we're doing is creating IP that we can 658 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,240 scale to global success. That doesn't always have to be 659 00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:43,760 like premium, high end, premium content at the at the scale 660 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,920 version of it. It could be that could be just a 661 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,560 podcast that the world loves. But as we move more into 662 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:55,800 scripted with our with our production capabilities, I think 663 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,000 we've got a real opportunity there because it's moving into 664 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,960 the formats that we know that really entertain people and, and 665 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,520 it's the lean back and the lean forwards. 666 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,640 And so if our future, I think I would say that in the next three 667 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,840 to five years you will see us build more brands. 668 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:16,160 You will see us move into a bigger studio environment that 669 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:23,880 has VR capability and allows us to do more as a business in a in 670 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,600 a self constrained studio environment. 671 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:33,400 And then maybe there'll be some rolling up of some other 672 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,080 businesses to, to, to, to be able to facilitate doing more of 673 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:39,880 that and to own more of that market. 674 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,280 But could the future, I don't know, this is really future goes 675 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,080 in, but like, would we become whatever the whatever the 676 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,240 version of the streamer is in the first place in the in the 677 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:52,920 future, you know, whether that's an app or whatever it is, 678 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:54,960 whatever that whatever form that takes. 679 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,080 Could there be a thing where spirit starts making sense of a 680 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,680 certain particular genre or a certain type of entertainment or 681 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:07,200 something? And that literally has the all 682 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,520 those different versions that we just talked about within that, 683 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,520 within that space. I think that's what's really 684 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,800 exciting. Like we're working on some 685 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,200 really, really exciting projects at the moment that do drama, 686 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:23,840 true story, podcasting, lots of digital social spin off, all 687 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,200 under 1 brand from a launch. That's one of the big projects 688 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,560 we're working on at the moment. And like that just feels super 689 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,600 exciting to me. And that feels like the future 690 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,440 where you you see this content everywhere, Everything, 691 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,280 Everywhere, all of the time. So finally, we're going to go 692 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,040 into story of the week, which is something obviously we do every 693 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:48,160 week on the show, which is essentially ATV or a content 694 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,440 industry story that's caught your eye in the past seven days, 695 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:52,920 Matt, So what's your story of the week? 696 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,160 Well, it's got to be Saturday Night Live UK because I think 697 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:02,240 that's the thing that everyone's talking about and I get the 698 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:03,880 feeling we're going to disagree on this. 699 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,640 Well, we might. I. 700 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,160 So you love it, don't you? Well, well, no. 701 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:17,800 What I'm going to say is that I am really impressed with the 702 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,960 launch. I'm going to be honest, I 703 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:26,120 thought the trailers and the promos weren't brilliant and I 704 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,360 thought, I didn't think. In fact, I think it was more my 705 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,040 wife, who's like not in the industry says I don't know 706 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,160 what's that shit? I don't know what that is, what 707 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,320 it means or what it's about. And I think that makes a lot of 708 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,080 sense. It's just a bunch of comedians 709 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,120 that running down the street on a Saturday night out. 710 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,560 There was maybe the assumption that people knew about what the 711 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,600 SNL brand was. Right, which is? 712 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,400 You know which many people do, but I think lots of people don't 713 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,120 as well, you know? I think I don't, I doubt that 714 00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:01,840 the young age, I doubt a lot of people under 30 do, because it 715 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,400 feels like it's something that, like you, we only know about it 716 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,320 in the UK through social media really, because the sketches go 717 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,080 viral and we know there's a legacy brand and we might have 718 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,920 seen it here and there, clips here and there. 719 00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:16,840 But it's not something that's on here, is it? 720 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:23,560 That you can watch all the time. And so anyway, I I had AI had a 721 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,800 vested interest because it's got some ex stand up sketch of 722 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,080 talent in it in different roles on screen and behind the scenes. 723 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,680 And so like I'm really pleased for them that they're getting a 724 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,240 really big break and there's a lot of eyes on this project. 725 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,760 I thought Tina Fey was an interesting, I mean, it's kind 726 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,280 of like passing the baton. Like that's what I felt like 727 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,000 that Lorne Michaels executive felt you can fit, you can feel 728 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,880 the heritage on it. So it felt like it had a lot of 729 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:58,360 America's backing and blessing. And then I was like, oh man, 730 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,760 because like the first time I saw it is like great bunch of 731 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,520 talent, but quite young because American American talent, 732 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:05,760 they're like all different ages, right? 733 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,160 I was like, it's quite a young talent base. 734 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,080 Am I going to be, am I going to be able to take them seriously 735 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,440 doing the political satire and all that? 736 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,040 But you know what, like Sunday morning, my socials were full of 737 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,160 all the sketches and I looked, when I looked at the SNL 738 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,480 Instagram account first thing in the morning, it was under 10K 739 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,120 followers. I don't know. 740 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,480 The last time I looked, it was 28 yesterday, like it was 741 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,760 rapidly growing. And then I read last night that 742 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,840 Donald Trump had shared the the Kier Starmer sketch. 743 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,680 And and then you kind of go like, actually, there's a lot 744 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:46,160 riding on this. But to pull off a live sketch 745 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,040 show for 75 minutes on a weekly basis is no mean feat. 746 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,760 That's really I've anyone that doesn't has never done works in 747 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,440 live. I mean, it's, it's really hard 748 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,600 to do that. Yeah, but they've got no 749 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,480 shortage of budget, have they? Let's face it, I mean, this is. 750 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,840 Like, you know. Huge, huge broadcaster and this 751 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,480 is for them a premium, premium products. 752 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,000 I mean, you imagine the politics getting this together, you know, 753 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:12,800 first of all, just like what's funny to Americans and what's 754 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,200 funny to Brits, right? That's one thing that separates 755 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,240 us is common language and and sense of humour. 756 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:23,320 But in most cases, but I don't know, I mean, I think it got 757 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,680 viewing figures for about 250,000, I think, which is 758 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,440 pretty good at beat Channel 4, which you would imagine with the 759 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,240 amount of, you know, a new launch and the amount of, you 760 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:40,040 know, hype around the show. I don't know. 761 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,960 I mean, I, you know, for me it's like that's, that's really 762 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,320 interesting to see what that drop off is next week. 763 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,000 Yeah, I agree with that. I don't. 764 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,160 I don't disagree with what you're saying, but those are the 765 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,920 reasons why everyone thinks it would fail because it because 766 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,520 it's too big. It's it's, it feels ridiculous. 767 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,240 It feels like the most ridiculous Commission you've 768 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:03,160 heard of in this state of the industry. 769 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:11,320 Well, it begs the question, why? Well, I think Sky are going 770 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,000 through some big changes, aren't they? 771 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,320 They're owned by the company that makes SNL in America. 772 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,520 So there's a legacy thing there. There's there's a globalization 773 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,800 of content. There's social media at play. 774 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,800 I keep banging on about it. IP 360, I think SNL is one of 775 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,600 the original IP 360 brands. Like they've got an opportunity. 776 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,440 Yes, it's expensive, but they've got an opportunity to build 777 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:42,720 something here that's never been done before in the UK because 778 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,600 we've seen so many of these late shows try and fail. 779 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,280 Do you remember that run years ago that ITV did on a weekly 780 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,520 night and they had different each week, they had a different 781 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,960 host take on five nights. For some reason, we don't. 782 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,760 We like, for some reason, we all sort of want to like the Late 783 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,760 Show in the UK. Like we all watch clips of all 784 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,560 the late, late shows from America and all that stuff, but 785 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,480 they just don't seem to land because we're, well, maybe 786 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,280 there's not enough money to be able to do it justice or there's 787 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,240 not enough guests. Maybe America's just a much 788 00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:17,160 bigger place, right? So like here, the site that that 789 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,560 you know, you'd be recycling things all the time, guests, 790 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,360 stories, all that kind of stuff where in America it can run and 791 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,800 run and run. But but Saturday Night Live we, 792 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,720 I think, I think John is, I think it's just I, I just 793 00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:35,000 expected to see the opposite in terms of the results. 794 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,960 And what I saw was people going, Oh my God, that was amazing. 795 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,880 Well done. Lots of teething problems. 796 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,680 Like you could tell there's a even Tina Fey I thought was a 797 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,280 bit nervous at the beginning, like her monologue, you know, 798 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,760 it's a new thing, everyone. The pressure of that is, is 799 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,680 really big. But as you said, they've spent a 800 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,200 lot of money. There's a really brilliant 801 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,400 writing team on it, really brilliant production team, 802 00:48:56,720 --> 00:48:59,680 really great set. And you know, the live team 803 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,040 where, where's the training ground for live these days? 804 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:04,720 And yet they executed it brilliantly. 805 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:07,400 I mean, there was some really good moments in it. 806 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,160 Whether or not every sketch worked or not sort of irrelevant 807 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:12,920 for me. It's kind of like, that's a good 808 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:14,160 start. It's a really good start. 809 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,480 And it's now been extended to I think 8 episodes. 810 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,040 Isn't it from six? So and Peacocks bought it. 811 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,240 So distributions working already and that will have come already 812 00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:28,560 off people seeing rehearsal tapes and all that stuff, you 813 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:34,960 know, And so like, I don't know, as you said, there's a lot of, 814 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,720 there's a lot of money to, there's a lot of money there to 815 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:40,360 fill in terms of recoup, recoupment. 816 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,120 But it, it does put Sky on the map and Sky, now we're doing 817 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,480 these, I mean, Sky is starting to do these bundles with Netflix 818 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:49,640 and everything. I mean, there's a lot, you know, 819 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,000 there's a lot more to play. They're they're sort of, there's 820 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,400 been the talks about them and ITV there's, there's like, 821 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,720 there's a lot to play for. Like if you're going to compete 822 00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:00,120 at the top, go big or go home. Yeah. 823 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,160 Yeah. Well, that's a good, good point 824 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,720 to end on then. Matt, thank you for coming on 825 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:09,000 telecast. It's been great having a chat in 826 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,960 your studio, which is which is great and you're great 827 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:14,920 production team who will always look after us. 828 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,600 So thank you for that. And, and what's what's next? 829 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,080 What's what's next out of the gate for you? 830 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:24,960 Then just as a what's the next new project that we're going to 831 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,960 see on socials or on a podcast or, or vertical or what's the 832 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,200 next thing to to look out for from Spirit? 833 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,520 Sally Lindsay's A Night In with Sally Lindsay Comes starts next 834 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,120 week. Channel 5, right, launches next 835 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:40,960 Wednesday. All right, fantastic. 836 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:45,440 We'll we'll take a look at that. So Matt, thanks again and all 837 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,560 the best with spirit. Yeah.