1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,160 Hi and welcome to another episode of Telecast. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,000 This week I'm speaking with Timothy O from CUL Group, 1 of 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,680 China's biggest distributors and producers of micro drama. 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:16,079 I hope you enjoy the show. So, Timothy, welcome to 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,360 Telecast. Thank you our. 1st guest, I 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,960 think from Singapore, which is great to see you here. 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,200 And, and you're from Col. Group, which is really at the 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,760 centre of this huge micro drama boom that we've been covering on 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,960 the drop and we've been talking about on telecast recently as 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,760 well. So first of all, tell us about 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,920 your role within Col. Group and and and, and tell us 12 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,840 about Col. Group as a business. 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,480 So I've been brought on to drive the international expansion of 14 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,080 the micro drama beyond the US and China. 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,320 I think, you know, it's well established that in China it's 16 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,880 really doing very well. It's exceeded the box office 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,120 revenue is kind of setting the scene for what it's going to 18 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,840 become, right. And I think that's where, you 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,200 know, I find it really exciting. So when I got a call and say, 20 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,120 you know, Tim will like you to come on board. 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,360 And you know, I come from a background where I used to be a 22 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:14,200 producer, director of films, scripted and unscripted and in 23 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,920 Sony and in gaming. And then I thought like, you 24 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,160 know, this is really cool because we've come to a place 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,760 where it's finally digital first, where micro dramas 26 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,120 vertical viewing is a priority for companies. 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,600 So I immediately was like really excited, especially when it was 28 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,840 working with a company like Col. And, you know, there are many 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,400 companies out there that are like in the micro drama space. 30 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,840 And I think one of the things that really made the company 31 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,560 really unique is that it's an IP company. 32 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,200 So it started 25 years ago being a incubator of IPS. 33 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,400 And you know, so we are the second largest in in China, 34 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,640 which pretty much you know is a lot of IPS to work. 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,560 With, yeah, I can imagine. And did you start from from 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,720 ebooks as well? Was that a central part of your 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,920 business before? Because that I know that's 38 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,840 really what's driven this whole micro drama boom is that that's 39 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,320 the IP at the centre of it, isn't it? 40 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,560 This ebook ebook business. Yeah, yeah, I think I think 41 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,920 you're right. You know, like the ebooks, you 42 00:02:17,920 --> 00:02:21,720 know, collecting stories from writers from all over the world, 43 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,720 China to start with. I think that was how we started. 44 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,360 And you know, the main audiences were audiences that were really 45 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:32,360 reading all these, you know, E stories online, even subscribing 46 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,200 to, you know, like these stories through your MMS. And we were, 47 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,080 we used to work with telcos to send like chapters every day. 48 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,840 So it's very similar to the the concept of micro dramas, right? 49 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,640 There's a natural progression for AOL Group really to move 50 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:48,600 into into visual, visualized storytelling. 51 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,320 Exactly. And I think the formats evolved 52 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:52,840 right. You know, we we've gone with 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,400 like, you know, you know, drama series, films, animation and it 54 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,280 was just a natural like transition when it becomes a 55 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,920 free vertical experience. So I do think that, you know, 56 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:07,680 the opportunity of like shorter content has never been 57 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,720 maximized. I know we all know that short 58 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,440 films exist for the long time, for the longest time, right? 59 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,240 And we never knew how to monetize it. 60 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,080 So I think micro drama is an evolution of that. 61 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,360 Yeah. And I mean, it's certainly a 62 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,520 booming business, which is, which is, you know, a rarity for 63 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,280 the content industry because lots of the content industry has 64 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,800 been in decline for the last 5-10 years or so. 65 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,720 So it's really refreshing to see something that's really fueling 66 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,560 growth across the US. And obviously, is it still in 67 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,160 growth in China this this space is it, is it still in a growth 68 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,000 phase? It's very mature in China. 69 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,360 I think you know the from the way the content is being 70 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,480 consumed even to like how the IPS are developed, there are 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,320 very significant IPS that have like sequels, which we don't see 72 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,080 them in the Western world yet or rest of world, if my, if I may 73 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,000 say so. I think the maturity of the 74 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,120 platform and format allows things to be adapted a lot 75 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,400 better IPS to be more mature. So in China, definitely a lot 76 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,880 more mature, but it's growing really quickly. 77 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,160 Everywhere else. I think people are still trying 78 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,560 to figure out how to make money with micro dramas. 79 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,560 I think when we talk about booming, the two parts to it, 80 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,160 right there is the consumer that's watching it and then 81 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:26,800 there is the people who pay for it. 82 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,720 So the view viewership is definitely there and I think 83 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,000 it's just a natural transition For anyone who's been on your 84 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,440 mobile phone, you've been watching TikTok, Instagram. 85 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,640 It's just a matter of consuming a different kind of content 86 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,840 vertically. But in terms of who's paying for 87 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:44,400 it, I think that's where the growth is AT. 88 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,120 Is the quality of the content good enough for people to start 89 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,440 paying and paying more? And how sustainable is that? 90 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,920 That's the big question. And that's really interesting 91 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:55,880 and we'll come back to that if we may. 92 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,120 But let's first of all talk about CL groups and the apps 93 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,360 that you have. So how many apps do you do you 94 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,880 oversee and and and create at Col. group globally? 95 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,640 I mean, it gives us a sense of what scale of the business is. 96 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,640 Sure. So we're the first to where to 97 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,600 launch in China, the whole micro drama ecosystem. 98 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,920 So we had an app there and then subsequently within the China 99 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,920 space, we've become a like a leading content producer for 100 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,160 Hong Kong, which is one of the the biggest platform right now 101 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,840 in China and other outside of China. 102 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,400 We incubated Crazy Maple Studio, which obviously has real short 103 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,040 one of the leading platforms in the world. 104 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,680 Yeah. That's that's one that probably 105 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,520 I think that most of our listeners and viewers will be 106 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,120 aware of is crazy Maple Studios in the US, Yeah. 107 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,520 So real short. They may have one or two other 108 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,080 one or two other apps, but that's the main 1, isn't it? 109 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,120 Yeah. And and then subsequently we 110 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,880 launch quite a few others like we had Unireel 0 Plus and more 111 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,880 recently Flare Flow. That is one of the fastest 112 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:03,320 growing platform in the US and globally as well. 113 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,840 So yeah, it's been quite a journey we've been going on 114 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:09,280 this, you know, micro drama, race and putting a lot of horses 115 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:10,200 out there. Yeah. 116 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,640 And and those different apps, are they, are they collections 117 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,600 of different types of content for different audiences or 118 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,880 what's the difference between them? 119 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,800 I would say they are not distinct in terms of what the 120 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,400 audience they're trying to target. 121 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,760 It's really all pretty much the same. 122 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:32,720 But you know, I, I think the way we do it is that we want to see 123 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,080 how, because it's so new, you know, you don't know how it's 124 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,840 going to work and having one method or one go to market 125 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,480 strategy for one app isn't viable enough. 126 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,760 So we have different apps that. Puts a numbers game, but it's 127 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,960 the same content, often within the different apps. 128 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:48,560 Exactly. So we know if you were to pick 129 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,880 between these 10 apps, right? And you know, we own a few of 130 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,480 them. That really helps because we are 131 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,480 we own the collection. Of education. 132 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,200 Lots of different lines in the water to catch the fish. 133 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:00,400 Exactly. Exactly. 134 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:05,160 OK. And and so you're responsible 135 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,360 for international outside the US and China. 136 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,480 So where are you seeing the most growth outside of those two 137 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,840 markets then? There's a lot of growth in 138 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,040 markets like Southeast Asia, Brazil, Japan. 139 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,160 I think these are markets where people are really, I would say 140 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:27,880 focused on mobile 1st and they've always been struggling 141 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,000 with like, you know, getting pay TV because it's so expensive. 142 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,480 So when you start seeing content that's accessible and you know, 143 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,040 like of, of a quality that is, is obviously to them exciting, 144 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,320 interesting stories, right? I think that really penetrates 145 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:43,800 really well to countries like this. 146 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,320 Yeah. Well, coming back to the point 147 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,880 about monetization and apps versus what we're starting to 148 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:55,400 see now is, you know, you know, TikTok launching their own micro 149 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,480 drama app and the obviously micro drama is also starting to 150 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,800 appear on Disney Plus and Google, Google just announced 151 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,440 they're going into the micro drama business. 152 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,640 Fox investing in holy water, for example. 153 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,280 I mean, there's all the big players are making different 154 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:18,280 moves into this market. What will that mean for the the 155 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,560 current ecosystem? Because as you say it's all 156 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:27,600 micro part micro payment driven. Surely though, that's that is 157 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,600 still a barrier to viewing the actual micro payment, whereas 158 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,960 obviously lots of consumers are used to seeing all their content 159 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:41,440 for free on social video platforms like Instagram or any 160 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,920 of these, YouTube, for example. So do you see a natural 161 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,480 progression for micro drama appearing on these larger social 162 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,760 video platforms and they're becoming funded in different 163 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,760 ways and and talk a little bit to that, That'd be interesting 164 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,760 to get your viewpoint. So I think there are multiple 165 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:04,040 playbooks to this industry. I think micro drama is how this 166 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,160 all started. The way it's going to evolve is 167 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,360 how content is being consumed vertically and every company 168 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,920 would have different approach to how they would actually adapt to 169 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,360 that. I think it's very clear that, 170 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,320 you know, with shorter attention span, people are not watching 171 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,000 sudden shows as before. And I was, I was quoting this 172 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,440 example of ATV show I used to watch on Lifetime. 173 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,320 And I was mentioning to this colleague of mine and she was, 174 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,520 she's 22. She was like, I don't know what 175 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,200 that is And you know, but we all knew, we all know like what 176 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,800 Lifetime is, right? It's like a easy to watch 177 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,880 channel. So I think for players like, you 178 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,160 know, the networks, even the OTT players are going to continue to 179 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,200 look at. So how can I extend the lifespan 180 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,560 of my brand, my eyepiece and have it to be mobile first so 181 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:02,120 that it could, you know, stay relevant in today's economy 182 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,000 where people are watching content vertically. 183 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,640 And that playbook is a completely different approach 184 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:13,840 from a company that is invested or rather like, you know, backed 185 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,640 by a gaming company who wants into who wants to go into a 186 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,080 micro drama space, who wants to do microtransactions. 187 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,440 Essentially, the the different drive to how they want to 188 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,560 approach vertical content would end up in very different 189 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,120 results. So I would imagine like a series 190 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,200 on Netflix and yeah, Disney Plus would look very different from 191 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,120 the dramas that you have on the micro drama apps. 192 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,600 Because they would probably think if I were to do a next 193 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:48,200 reiteration of a IP that I have, or to say, for example, they 194 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,280 want to bring back Orange is the New Black, they might go. 195 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,720 I might do it on a vertical basis and appeal to this new 196 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,560 group of audience that has not seen it. 197 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,440 The hook's going to be different because you're not going to make 198 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,680 them pay for it. It's part of the subscription. 199 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,520 Yeah, but but did you, I mean you talking about that being 200 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,560 actually reshot that's a new series or reversion pure because 201 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:11,160 it wouldn't work, right? It can't work if you just 202 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,440 reversion the original content. It's a micro drama. 203 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,800 It's just it just doesn't have that hook every 90 seconds, 204 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,960 right? I mean, it's like cutting a 205 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,240 console game into a mobile game. It doesn't work that way. 206 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,520 Yeah, you can't. You can't just edit it down. 207 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,560 You have to redo the stories. I mean, there are some companies 208 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:33,680 that are looking to edit films and edit TV series down, but you 209 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:36,880 get them on Instagram now. Like you get these summaries of 210 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,400 shows for free, so you're not bringing extra value to it. 211 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,440 And also with micro series, right? 212 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:46,880 Because it's so it's, it's, it's, it's such a simple story 213 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,520 that we're telling. And it's also vertical. 214 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,480 And every episode is just two minutes. 215 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,680 You can't tell four stories or five stories in subplots in 2 216 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:57,800 minutes because by the time you get to the 8th episode, you have 217 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,320 to go back to the first character. 218 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,800 So most of the time you have like a character you're rooting 219 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,240 for, you're following through the character's journey versus 4 220 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,320 storylines with it's like 6 subplots. 221 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,160 So you can't really do that. And you can't concise all of 222 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,240 that into a vertical space. So I would imagine that, you 223 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,240 know, whoever who wants to reimagine the IP, they would 224 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,080 have to pick something vertical first. 225 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,360 So that could be an individual character story within out of 226 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,880 coming out of an IP. You said that exactly like 227 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,400 Orange is the New Black. It could be following one 228 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,640 character's story. Yep, after the original series 229 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,120 of Finish or something like that. 230 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,040 Some sort of reimagining. Exactly. 231 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,720 Even if you were to put like, you know, a dating show, right, 232 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:40,880 you know, it would be very simple. 233 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,520 You'd be following this character because you want to 234 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,240 know if this person is going to make it. 235 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,760 Yeah, It's a very simple story. And I, I always relate it to 236 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,080 gaming, right? You know, you have big games 237 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,560 that is a console only. And then you have mobile games 238 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:57,120 that are easy to play. You could play anywhere. 239 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,640 And my mom is now a gamer because she plays Bejewel and 240 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,800 Candy Crush, right? And and it's simple. 241 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,080 But then these big IPS that we've seen, so even like games 242 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,360 like Mario, right? We've played it on the console. 243 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:12,840 It's now also on mobile, but it's done differently. 244 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,920 It's done in a more accessible way so that more people could 245 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:17,440 could play it. Yeah. 246 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,600 So I guess it's really expanding the eyepiece so that, you know, 247 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,680 more people could experience it with shorter attention spend and 248 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,600 shorter investment in time. Yeah. 249 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,880 Yeah. And and so coming back to my 250 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:36,520 original question in terms of the maturity of the marketplace 251 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,400 for a, for a territory like the UK still relatively new with 252 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:46,280 micro drama. But do you expect it to be much 253 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,440 more driven by micro payments or do you expect it to be much more 254 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:55,720 driven by revenue generated on social, social platforms going 255 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,040 forward? I think it every culture and 256 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,960 every country that's been at, you know, speaking or talking to 257 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,800 different people in terms of the content receptiveness, I think 258 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,440 really the first specifically to the UKI think the current 259 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,440 content doesn't really sit 100% well with the the UK audience. 260 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,520 The kind of humor overacting. Let's well, let's be honest, 261 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,880 it's pretty cheesy. A lot of it's have you heard of 262 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,080 a series of books called Mills and Boone? 263 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,640 Yes, I've you have okay, so that's the audience will a lot 264 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,280 of our audience in the UK will know that that's like, you know, 265 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,600 it's it's kind of cozy, cheesy, kind of like, you know, love 266 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,920 story, romance and what. Happened, but it's not Kemp. 267 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,080 And I know like, you know, the pretty humor. 268 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,360 They love dry humor, which, you know, you don't really get that 269 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,360 in the micro drama, no. Yeah, no. 270 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,280 So, so you'll, you expect to to obviously have a lot more 271 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,360 content created natively for the UK market and and working within 272 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,600 these different, different genres then. 273 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,920 Definitely, but I do think that, you know, say, for example, in 274 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,640 the UK, it would be really driven by a lot of these big 275 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,840 players who have very strong eyepiece that people grew up and 276 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,000 familiar with. I think in the UK people are 277 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,960 very nostalgic. A lot of, you know, when I talk 278 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,840 to like my friends and, and even people, they will talk about 279 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,120 shows that they've watched for the last 20 years and they 280 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,360 follow very religiously on on certain, you know, eyepiece. 281 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,080 So I do think that for things to really move and to move in a big 282 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,600 way, these cheesy short stories needs to be married into some of 283 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,880 these big eyepiece. I mean, we're seeing some of 284 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,800 these stories in like, you know, EastEnders and and stuff, right? 285 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,760 But you know, how how do they take some of these stories from 286 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,640 the soaps and and traditional stuff that we see on TV like 287 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,280 naked attraction and make it more mobile first? 288 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,560 Well, that. Would you imagine that as the 289 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,680 obvious thing with with the soaps and and and continuing 290 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,560 dramas just much in the way of telling novellas in Latin 291 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,120 markets that that would they would be the most obvious 292 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:13,200 adaptations, you know, potentially particular story. 293 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,480 They could link, link stories and give different contexts to 294 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,520 different stories which happened within the main show perhaps. 295 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,400 You know, yeah, it's interesting that hasn't, we haven't seen 296 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,760 that those plays come come through from any of the major 297 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,320 broadcasters yet. Not yet. 298 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,240 I think they are all interested in it, but they the question is 299 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,560 the monetization part of it. Yeah, because to to really 300 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,920 monetize it, you need to build up an ecosystem, yeah, to do 301 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,040 that, right. So you need to have an app that 302 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,760 enables that. You need to have brands that are 303 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,320 willing to pay for it if you don't have the monetization 304 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,960 model. But the question is that brands 305 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,720 are already advertising online. They are spending money on 306 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,080 YouTube, on Instagram, TikTok, right? 307 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,640 So if the networks really want to capture the advertising 308 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:06,920 dollars, increase the value of the IP, that's where they need 309 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,280 to start thinking. So how can I move this into the 310 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:10,680 space? Yeah, yeah. 311 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,839 And obviously soap operas were originally soap powders, 312 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,640 originally funded the whole soap opera in the 1950s. 313 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,880 So it could be a sort of a full circle moment if you see aerial 314 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,040 or something like this funding a a particular, you know, micro 315 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,359 drama from Hollyoaks or whatever that might be. 316 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,200 Yeah, exactly. Interesting. 317 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,400 So I think I'll be very curious to see how it, it's being picked 318 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,200 up here in the, I would say in in the UK setting because I do, 319 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,040 I do talk to a lot of producers. I think they're trying to figure 320 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,920 out how to do it. But it really has to come from 321 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,520 someone that wants to drive an ecosystem. 322 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,320 So it doesn't work if someone is going to produce two or three 323 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,960 shows because where do they put them? 324 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,600 Where do they monetise it? Because you can get the views, 325 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,480 but then nobody's going to pay for it. 326 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,440 So because that's it, because I suppose if you create a first of 327 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,000 all, how you distribute it, well, you get it on other, you 328 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,360 know, you distribute it or if it's not brand funded, for 329 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:10,480 example, then it would need to go on one of your apps, for 330 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,600 example, you know, and that will just sit there within with how 331 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,840 many your catalog of probably 10,000 micro dramas, right? 332 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,480 So, so yeah, there needs to be much more substantial kind of 333 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,320 ecosystem. And So what what you're, you're 334 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,960 over in London, you're doing lots of meetings with presumably 335 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,800 lots of the major production groups here. 336 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,880 You know, is the, are we still in a learning phase, do you 337 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,360 think? Are we still in a learning phase 338 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:43,680 with lots of these businesses? Just they're trying to work out 339 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,240 how they can get into this market? 340 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,720 Yes, I think everybody's curious, but I think nobody 341 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,840 really wants to take the first step. 342 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:58,720 I do also also think that, you know, we are we created a space 343 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,760 that is driven by bike, you know, like all this high stakes, 344 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,560 high drama content that has a reputation for being like you 345 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,080 said, cheesy. And a lot of IPS, a lot of 346 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,280 companies they don't they don't really want to go into that 347 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,480 space. But you know, like I mentioned, 348 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,480 being able to differentiate between the current approach and 349 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,520 what the users and viewers are actually watching, which is 350 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,800 vertical content. You need to take someone that is 351 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,040 really innovative and willing to take that first big risk and big 352 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,120 step to show that actually we could create, you know, UK 353 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,920 audience friendly content that doesn't have to be like this, 354 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,160 but mobile first. So I, I do think that, you know, 355 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,680 based on the conversations, I think people are exploring, but 356 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,400 they're not ready to take a big. Step but to create that 357 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,000 ecosystem is a huge investment right to create an app and then 358 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,040 to create the amount of content or or you're saying that there 359 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,240 could be a business. I mean it could be Col. group 360 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,400 right? That creates AI don't know micro 361 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:03,440 drama UK app for example, which would then be the home for what 362 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,640 we might see is more. Appropriate content for UK micro 363 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,880 drama consumers. I mean, is that are you, are 364 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,080 you, is that something that you're looking at, at Col. 365 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:15,360 Group? Definitely. 366 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:19,080 I think we're constantly looking for options and how we want to 367 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,360 expand. I think the UK market is a 368 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,680 really, really good market. There are really good stories. 369 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:28,520 But like you, like you and I said that the content that the 370 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,960 Brits do love is, is very different from what everywhere 371 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,280 everyone else is watching. I mean, there are similarities, 372 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,680 but there are certain like, you know, quirks and and storylines, 373 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,240 humor points that I don't think it's currently delivering. 374 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,520 So I think these partnerships would be a good start for, I 375 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,240 would say the the platforms to learn about how this actually 376 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,240 would work for them to figure out a road map to be more 377 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,080 digital first, because it doesn't make sense. 378 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,120 You know, when you when you turn on an app and let's just say the 379 00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,760 Channel 4 app, right, it's vertical on your phone and then 380 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,080 you have to switch to horizontal to watch the episodes. 381 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,840 So the question is, So what is that content? 382 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,200 And instead of reinventing it, you know, it would be really 383 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,960 interesting if a big player out there would say, I want to do 384 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,240 something and I want to do it now because I know that people 385 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:25,120 are watching things vertically. So, so let's talk about some of 386 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,200 the biggest successes out there. I mean, they've been lots of, 387 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,520 you know, amazing success stories. 388 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:38,040 What would you say is the kind of ultimate success story for a 389 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,400 micro drama that you've come across that is either in China 390 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,200 or, or in the states or any other? 391 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,840 Can you just give us a bit of a case study in terms of, you 392 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,080 know, a micro drama that's worked, what the production cost 393 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,560 was and what the revenue generated was? 394 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,640 Sure. I'll use an example in China. 395 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,280 So there is this IP that we have is called Rex to from Rex to 396 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,720 rank one. It's a time travelling show, but 397 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,480 set in the, in the past, you know, and the first series had a 398 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:14,160 billion views, 1/4 of a million budget because of, because it's 399 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,440 historical. And within a week we had 1 400 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,080 billion views and people were already asking for a second 401 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,520 season. So typically, you know, if today 402 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,480 we are in a regular TV network, it would take maybe another year 403 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,320 or two to finalize and announce and produce, right. 404 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,760 So it took us two months to confirm that we're going to go 405 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,280 ahead with the second season because we, we saw the reception 406 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,200 and within 2 1/2 months we, we basically released the next 407 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,480 series. And the quality of the show, 408 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,120 it's, it's really high. You know, it's not like a shot 409 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:51,240 with your phone. So the ability to Commission 410 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,600 shows that quickly allows us to capture the audience and grow 411 00:22:55,600 --> 00:23:01,440 the IPA lot faster than what some traditional shows would 412 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:02,720 take. You know, we wouldn't have to 413 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,760 wait for two years before the next series drops. 414 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,280 You are able to capture the audience. 415 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:11,280 So I'm going to push you on the on the on the revenue then as 416 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:12,600 well. I mean, what sort of revenue 417 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,320 would a would a would a successful series like that 418 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:22,640 generate from from each series? So typical series would like I 419 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,400 mentioned would cost around 152100K USD. 420 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,760 It would a revenue a good show would actually bring in like, 421 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:36,280 you know, nineteen $20 million within two weeks if it's well 422 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,600 marketed. This is excluding the marketing 423 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,120 fees obviously that's involved, which obviously would even out 424 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,680 quite a lot, right. So a lot of these budget goes 425 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,920 into making sure that the series is on the phone because the way 426 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,920 you discover a micro drama isn't knowing that an actor is in a 427 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,120 particular show. You don't see press tours, you 428 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,600 don't see trailers dropping before the series. 429 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,000 Happen when you say marketing? Yeah. 430 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,080 What does that actually mean when you say marketing? 431 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,680 I mean when it comes to the micro drama world. 432 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,200 It's literally marketing so that you would see the first few 433 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,680 episodes on your Instagram or your TikTok. 434 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,440 So we're doing direct marketing. We're putting the first few 435 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,200 series. So first few episodes out there 436 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,040 get you hooked so that you would download the app to finish 437 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,120 watching it. So it's very much using the 438 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,320 story to attract you and get you involved right from the get go 439 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,000 versus showing you a trailer, telling you, telling you who's 440 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:35,200 out there. What is the story about? 441 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,040 So it's it's, so it's positioning. 442 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,560 So not only is it paying for positioning within the actual 443 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:48,400 app that it's going to be viewed on, but it's also other social 444 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,040 platforms and actually paying for marketing on other other 445 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,760 social platforms as well to drive viewers back to it. 446 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,080 OK. Downloads. 447 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,680 Yeah, yeah. And they and, and so the 448 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,960 marketing, the sort of marketing campaigns that you need to 449 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,600 create a successful show, are they they fairly substantial? 450 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,640 I mean, do you, you know is marketing? 451 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,840 I mean does marketing exceed the, the, the production costs 452 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,120 for example? Definitely. 453 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:20,480 So we you could spend up to more than a million on a particular 454 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,680 show. But the way marketing is being 455 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,240 determined is we would put a show up for two to three days. 456 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,640 We would see how the performance is like. 457 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,080 We would edit the show if necessary, just so that we know 458 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,040 that the hooks are better. We would do thousands of 459 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,400 versions to of different trailers, episodes and stuff 460 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,800 that would go on social media to test and see who actually is 461 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,280 playing and watching it. And we would decide how we want 462 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,680 to do after three days. So we run approximately 400 463 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,920 experiments right each month to make sure that the show gets to 464 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,640 the right person. OK, wow. 465 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,320 And most of that, it must be driven by AI, right? 466 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,440 We are using AI, but at the same time there is also a huge team 467 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,840 that works 24/7. It must be. 468 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,480 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 469 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,560 And then the way we Commission the shows are very different 470 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,400 from ATV Network, right? So we would look at how the show 471 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,040 is performing and we would actually then look at refining 472 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,440 some of these elements. So I'll give you an example. 473 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,200 We had this show called 99 Forgiveness, very simple story 474 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,760 about this guy who is a boxer becoming champion, which is his 475 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,840 girlfriend. And we released in the US and we 476 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,640 saw that the audience watches it, officers in age group, 477 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,720 they're living in certain parts of the US and they have certain 478 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,640 hobbies. So the next series was 479 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,160 commissioned within two months and it was called 99 Chances and 480 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,960 it's about this female male singer that was signed by a 481 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,960 record label and they just his girlfriend and the girlfriend 482 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,720 became an incredibly popular singer. 483 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,880 Simple. Similar story, similar IP dev 484 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,120 we've worked out, but we use the data to decide what is the next 485 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,080 version. How do we more effectively 486 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,360 capture the audience? So it's more similar to how a 487 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:13,200 Tik Toker or an Instagrammer decides the content. 488 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,680 You see someone do silly dance, and then the next moment you do 489 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,480 the silly dance again and you improve it. 490 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:19,320 Yep. Yeah. 491 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:20,840 And tailor. It so it's always about 492 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,360 iteration, isn't it? It's about learning, testing and 493 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,800 learning as is, you know, one of the key tenets of the the 494 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:31,040 digital First ecosystem. It's about constantly iterating 495 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,800 and getting better and and and closer and closer to your 496 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,320 target. Exactly, which is why a lot of 497 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,640 times, I guess when we talk to different partners, they they're 498 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,680 trying to figure out how to do a hook every two minutes. 499 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,760 There is existing IPS that set themselves up ready for this. 500 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,440 It's really hard to write a brand new show and you know, 501 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,840 like, just imagine, like, you know, 2 minutes later 502 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,080 something's going to happen and the payoff needs to be good 503 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,760 enough. Yeah, good enough for you to pay 504 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,520 for it. So the, the magic in this whole 505 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,760 process in, in making a successful show is how do you 506 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:14,000 take an existing IP that you own and a successful formula that we 507 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,480 own, Like how an influencer Tik Toker would work, would work, 508 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,800 right? And finding that balance and and 509 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,120 synergy, it's the same way as how you would reach to a content 510 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,320 producer, right? So when you, when you do, when 511 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,800 you work with a digital creator, you wouldn't say do the story 512 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,440 this way. You give them a theme, you give 513 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,880 them a product and they would. Do it in your own way, your own 514 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,120 magic. Bring your own twins. 515 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,000 The. Hook Exactly. 516 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:39,680 Yeah, yeah. Interesting. 517 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,960 So when it comes to vertical video let's you know, we can 518 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,920 sort of spread it out wider than than micro drama. 519 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:54,320 Where do you think the markets going in Western Europe, for 520 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,960 example, do you think there's a market for reality? 521 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:04,760 Do you think there's a market for, you know, factual docs, 522 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,360 etcetera? I mean, the whole way of viewing 523 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:15,400 content, you know, essentially micro episodes, do you see that 524 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,800 carrying over from drama into into different genres? 525 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,000 Yes, we are experimenting it. I'll, you know, I'll tell you 526 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,520 more about it in a bit. But definitely, I think people 527 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,800 are craving for more content beyond just the romance trope, 528 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,840 the CEO billionaire stuff. I do think that it's about, you 529 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,080 know, basically understanding where we are with the content. 530 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,080 I think different markets react differently. 531 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,560 For some markets, they really, really enjoy these simple Philly 532 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,360 drama stories. But then there's some markets 533 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,800 where they are a bit more sophisticated, where they like 534 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,560 to be challenged intellectually. But I think, like I said, right, 535 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,600 because of how it's being set up right now, a lot of this, these 536 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,080 big players in the micro drama space are not really willing to, 537 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,960 to push the boundary to introduce a whole new genre 538 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,760 because it's, it costs a lot to market. 539 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,920 And it cost, even though it doesn't cost a lot to produce, 540 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,160 it does cost a lot to make sure that this show goes into through 541 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,920 your your phones and you start watching it. 542 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,280 So it's a work in progress in, in terms of deciding how to 543 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,920 Commission, what to Commission, what genres to go into. 544 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,240 And the only people that would take the risk are the people who 545 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,400 believe in it. And we need more people to 546 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,520 believe in in in vertical and digital first. 547 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,400 Yeah. And so where, where do you see, 548 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,120 I mean you talked about Southern Asia as being, you know, a real 549 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,080 growth area. I mean, what about what about 550 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,840 Europe then in terms of different countries within 551 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,000 Europe? I mean, are there any early 552 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,880 adopters for micro drama in Europe that that you know where 553 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,960 we might see that in in Spain, for example or you know, because 554 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,360 it has perhaps a bit more of a link with telenovelas than than 555 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,560 than UKI mean, obviously we have a soap operas here, but slightly 556 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,400 different. I mean which of the markets that 557 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,440 are kind of leading in terms of app download downloads and and 558 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,360 app and consumption of micro dramas in Europe? 559 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,920 So I'm talking to a couple of national broadcasters and OTT 560 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,880 players within Europe. I can't. 561 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,080 I can't specifically name them because. 562 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,440 Yes, if you say the country. Yes, but they want to be the 563 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,800 first in this space. So there are a lot of, there's 564 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,840 some innovators that are willing to push the boundaries and they 565 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,400 are now like talking serious talks about how to get into this 566 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,120 space. There is also a lot of like 567 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,600 demand in the French speaking African regions. 568 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,560 Germany is 1 market that we were surprised by because we are 569 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,480 ranking really high and really well in Germany really. 570 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,240 And I would never think that our content would sit well with the 571 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,960 German audiences. But this escapism, right? 572 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,960 Sometimes you just want something that's a bit different 573 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,360 from what you used to. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 574 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,440 So I was surprised to see Germany on the list. 575 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:17,920 It's like, yeah. Me too, me too. 576 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,120 I didn't think that that would that would that would appeal to 577 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:21,920 them. But there we are. 578 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,160 That's just, you know, an assumption that's wrong. 579 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,680 I know, I know, but definitely that. 580 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,840 So I think that the European markets are very open to it. 581 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,520 And but like I said, you know, they're trying to figure out how 582 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,880 to, you know, work this formula out that is sustainable for 583 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:38,840 them. Yeah. 584 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,680 So, so looking ahead then in in terms of the whole vertical 585 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:50,480 video space, it feels like there are a number of major players 586 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,520 that are inching towards this space. 587 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,000 And you know, the more time goes on, the more desperate they are 588 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,680 because they're losing viewers, right? 589 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,840 And they're using losing younger viewers as well in particular. 590 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,440 So these are the sort of pressures that they have that 591 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,080 that are maybe pushing them to towards experimenting more and 592 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,560 actually jumping in to the micro drama space. 593 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,360 What do you think, You know, if you were to look ahead five 594 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,480 years, which is a long time, I realized, or maybe 2 years, 595 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,640 let's say 2 years. That's probably more realistic, 596 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,320 isn't it, into the the whole vertical video space. 597 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,640 What are you projecting at CUL Group? 598 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,960 What do you look when you're looking at, at at these markets 599 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,200 that you're responsible for? What change are we going to see 600 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,560 in those two years? First and foremost, I think 601 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,920 TikTok is going to be a major player within the space and they 602 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,600 are already, they already own the vertical viewing experience 603 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,400 with Meta. So a transition in how TikTok 604 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,720 would, you know, adopt the micro drama, which they already are 605 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,120 and how they have done it in China. 606 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,239 I mean, not TikTok, but you know, the bike, bike dance has 607 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,520 done it in China where they have really very strong dominance 608 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,960 over the whole market space. So it is an easier transition 609 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,960 for an audience watching a dance video and then swiping to a 610 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,000 micro drama, then a Netflix audience that would swipe into a 611 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,000 micro drama. Yes. 612 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,040 So TikTok would be a force to be reckoned with. 613 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,760 And then there would also be very regional partners and 614 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,440 regional apps where TikTok would not be able to reach because 615 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,679 there are IPS, they're owned by, say ITV, you know, Channel 4 in 616 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:48,920 the UK, where, you know, TikTok would have to then collaborate. 617 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,199 But then these IP owners would then have to decide, do I want 618 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,880 to own this audience or do I want to share it with the TikTok 619 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,880 per SE? And then there are all these 620 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,000 other micro drama apps that are out there. 621 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,560 And it would be the survival of the fittest. 622 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,520 There would be a few that would really stick around. 623 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,320 But because they have successfully built a following, 624 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:12,960 they've also found a distinction. 625 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:18,360 And I casually was talking to another top platform that it's 626 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,960 not China backed and there's not many, so it's easy to get to 627 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,320 that. And I said casually, I said if 628 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,080 you were to remove the logos from the shows, you can't tell 629 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,360 who is it from. So it's going to be a race of 630 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,080 who is going to be able to create eyepiece that is vertical 631 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,080 1st and that would actually be of a value that would grow and 632 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,440 not just an IP that would stay for two weeks because people 633 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,080 have watched it. And then we need to reinvent 634 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,920 something again. So it's going to be a race of 635 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,800 who is going to create the major IP that people will come back 636 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,800 for because I don't. This is the premium micro dramas 637 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,520 we're talking. About exactly, exactly. 638 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,120 So that premium micro drama, premium IP would actually come 639 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,360 from one of these big players, I would say an original. 640 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:10,120 And these big players like ourselves, right, would have to 641 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,240 look at collaborating with existing IP owners who give a 642 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:18,400 new fresh breath of air and bring it to new audiences. 643 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,120 Yeah. So it'll be an interesting time. 644 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,080 I think the next two years there'll be a lot of progression 645 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,000 and changes. There will be incorporation into 646 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,880 ecommerce too, where people could buy stuff after watching 647 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,680 their content. I know a lot of ecommerce 648 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,960 platforms, even like transport apps are looking at it because 649 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,280 people would think now they're waiting, so let's feed them 650 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,360 something to watch, yeah, while they can. 651 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,040 And thirdly, branded content is, is what is going to come where 652 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,880 our brands are going to be more and more involved in how to 653 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,160 utilize micro drama content to tell stories. 654 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,320 And we're not seeing much of that. 655 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,120 We're seeing a few. We're seeing for P&G Studios 656 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,480 recently invested into their own micro drama, didn't they? 657 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,840 They did, they did. And we also have a couple of 658 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,480 branded content series that's coming out that is less obvious 659 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,040 and in your face because everybody knows that it's PNG is 660 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,040 doing something. But a good brand of content 661 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,640 would you would be so subtle that you don't even know they're 662 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,480 there. So it's going to get to a point 663 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,400 where you know, it's not a new thing that Brandon content is 664 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:25,960 going to be at. You don't have to shout about 665 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,040 it. So I think, I think that that in 666 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,600 within two years we're going to get to that space. 667 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,920 Two years, maybe we'll see Peaky Blinders, the micro drama. 668 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,920 Yeah, maybe that's the sort of thing that that will will move 669 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,840 the needle, won't it? Definitely, Definitely, yeah. 670 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,320 So Timothy, let's talk about your story of the week, then 671 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:49,240 tell us which which is story that you've that you've 672 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:52,920 identified as an interesting content in this industry story 673 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,560 in the last 7 days. So, you know, I, I've met all 674 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,200 kinds of people within the industry in the last one year, 675 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,000 people have told me that it's not TV like micro drama vertical 676 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,120 is just, you know, something that you have on your phone. 677 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,800 We're not in the same panel, we're not in the same room. 678 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,320 So I've, I've been figuring out how to navigate this and in the 679 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,560 last couple of months, and you know, we announced it last week 680 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,920 where we will be doing the first ever reality series that's 681 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,960 adapted from an renowned IP that's existed for 12 years. 682 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,800 It's been on Netflix, it's been on IT, it's been on like, you 683 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,400 know, major platforms. And for the first time ever, 684 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,560 we're going to take an IP, not just even reality and, and shoot 685 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,200 it just pure vertically. We're not even discussing, oh, 686 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,200 let's do a horizontal series or TV and then we do a vertical 687 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,680 version. So it's essentially pivoting 688 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,640 completely. So what is this series then? 689 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,960 Tell us more about it. It's called supermodel me. 690 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,960 So it's ran for six seasons and had had a really good run. 691 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,600 And you know, I book with refinery media, which is the 692 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,200 owner of the IP to come up with this concept of like, you know, 693 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:10,880 how do we give new audiences that accessibility to this show? 694 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,840 And it's quite interesting because, you know, traditionally 695 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,400 you would think that an IP owner would be like, you know, I want 696 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,480 the value to be premium. I want it to be on a premium 697 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:26,840 series, but choosing to put eyeballs and attention span and 698 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,080 willingness to watch something on TikTok and and vertical 699 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,440 first. It's a big move and it's it 700 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,680 would signal the 1st for many big other big IPS to come on 701 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,720 this bandwidth bandwagon. Sorry. 702 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,440 So I'm quite excited to see how this is going to have that, you 703 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,960 know, effect where other people are going to go. 704 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,400 Oh, so I can do this now? Yeah. 705 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,920 So after I announced it, I've got many calls saying can we do 706 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,560 this and do it vertically too? Yeah. 707 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,480 So I mean, that's why. You've chosen your own story of 708 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,080 the week, but that's fine. That's but that's all right. 709 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,200 But that's really because that's super relevant for our 710 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,000 conversation. That's really interesting. 711 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:07,400 But yeah, like you say, sometimes you need the first 712 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:12,400 movers in the marketplace to to create a new trend or a new 713 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,000 movement in this sort of space. Exactly, Yeah. 714 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,920 Well, Timothy, thank you so much for joining us. 715 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,000 Really enjoyed meeting you and congratulations to all your 716 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,120 success. Thank you. 717 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,960 I'm sure and I hope we'll see you at some of our telecast 718 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,720 events in the coming months. Be great to hear a bit more. 719 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,160 But for the time being, thank you for coming on telecast. 720 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,360 Great to see you. Thanks for having me. 721 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:37,000 Thank you.