1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,720 I prefer it when brands aren't trying to shove ads down my 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,280 throat. People can tie themselves in 3 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,720 knots a little bit when they're trying to hide the fact that 4 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,320 it's branded entertainment. And what I think creators have 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,320 shown, and a lot of brands in the digital space have shown, is 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,000 that audiences are way ahead of that when it comes to brand. 7 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,800 IP absolutely still has a place in the media landscape, but I 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,240 don't think it's any longer the most important currency. 9 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:27,000 Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to another telecast. 10 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,280 On this week's show. I'm joined by Joe Churchill, 11 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,440 former Digital Commissioning Editor for branded content at 12 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,880 Channel 4 and now Co founder of Fan Club, an agency that's built 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,360 itself around brands, creators and premium content and has 14 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,320 become one of the clearest examples of what a modern 15 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,440 digital first business looks like in 2026. 16 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,480 Fan Club helps brands behave like broadcasters and develops 17 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:54,480 formats that feel native to social video rather than 18 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,480 retrofitted from TV. Joe's got front row seats to the 19 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,920 shifts coming down the track in branded entertainment. 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:02,680 So let's get into it. Hey, Joe. 21 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,360 Hello, thank you. That's a more succinct 22 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,880 encapsulation of what we do than I've ever been able to come. 23 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:09,280 Up with Brilliant. OK. 24 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:11,240 I'll use that. Feel free, please. 25 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,520 Yeah, yeah, just just just drop it into AI and work as a, as a, 26 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,320 as a reminder, welcome to the show. 27 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:19,920 Great to see you. Yeah, thanks for having. 28 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,160 Me. Last time I saw you, we were in 29 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,960 a very sunny can, weren't we? I know I almost wore my winter 30 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:27,760 version of my big yellow shirt. Your big yellow shirt, yeah, 31 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,680 which is great. I thought I would just start to 32 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,000 look like that was all I had in my wardrobe. 33 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,600 Well, you. Would have been on brand, which, 34 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,760 you know, I kind of quite like that, but so tell us about fan 35 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,400 club then. I mean you, we, we talked a 36 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,000 little bit, but for anybody who hasn't seen that show and 37 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,440 listened, listened to the the compilation shows that we had 38 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,280 around MIPCOM, just give us a refresher about what fan club is 39 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,000 as a business. Yeah, great. 40 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,120 Well, so Fan Club is a digital agency and we have an express 41 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,960 mission which is we turn brands into broadcasters, which is, you 42 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,480 know, can be broken down in lots of different ways. 43 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,800 But effectively what that means is we're like a plug in media 44 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,440 partner for a brand. So we can help them through 45 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,640 their social channels and through YouTube to act like a 46 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:14,680 broadcaster, to connect directly with an audience and to grow an 47 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,520 audience on their own and operated channels. 48 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,360 So in the same way that brands traditionally partner with media 49 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,800 owners, whether that's like, you know, print publishers like 50 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,640 Conde Nast or broadcasters like Channel 4 or digital publishers 51 00:02:27,640 --> 00:02:30,920 like Lab Bible and BuzzFeed, we offer everything that those 52 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,560 partners offer, but we plug into the brand and we do it all for 53 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,040 them on their channels. And I guess our USP or our kind 54 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,560 of point of difference is that we ultimately grow them 55 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,920 audiences. So when they work with us, they 56 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:45,600 get something that's lasting value that lives beyond that 57 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,360 campaign or that contract. Yeah, yeah. 58 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:53,040 And it's, it's, it's much more around entertainment becoming 59 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,120 entertaining entertainment brands in their own right, as 60 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,080 opposed to just advertisers and who are interrupting, you know, 61 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,560 whatever content you're watching on whatever channel it is. 62 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,120 Yeah, yeah. Well, actually randomly I was 63 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,160 talking to somebody in a shop on the way here who asked what I 64 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,160 did. And when I talked about brands 65 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,480 becoming like broadcasters, she was like, Oh, yeah, I've 66 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,600 followed a lot of brands this year, and it's great to see what 67 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,840 they're doing. And she was like, is it a good 68 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,200 thing that brands are starting to make content like this? 69 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:20,800 And it actually made me reflect for a moment. 70 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:21,960 And I was like, is it a good thing? 71 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,360 I was like, yeah, no, I think it is a good thing, which you would 72 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,480 hope, right? But. 73 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,000 Affirmation of your own business. 74 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,160 That's good, yeah. Yeah, well, not often you get a 75 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,360 chance to properly reflect. But, you know, I think for me 76 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,880 personally, as someone who is on these platforms myself, I prefer 77 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,440 it when brands aren't trying to shove ads down my throat, but 78 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,560 when they're just making something that's entertaining, 79 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,000 that's good, that's useful, or that just has something of value 80 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,720 to me. And I think, you know, the more 81 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,640 brands are leaning into that space, the more they're going to 82 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,640 get, you know, genuine, you know, sentiment like build 83 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,640 community around their brands and ultimately kind of create an 84 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,640 audience of like micro ambassadors who really care 85 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,080 about what your brand has to say and what you're doing. 86 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,680 Yeah, Yeah. It's interesting. 87 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,680 I mean, the, the, we've, we've covered branded entertainment 88 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,320 and brand from the programming, branded content and all these 89 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,160 different phrases that we can use for this sort of sector over 90 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,880 the years. And it seems like brands 91 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,200 becoming publishers become their own publishers or broadcasters, 92 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:28,640 if you like, seems to be just a much more efficient and 93 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,840 effective way for brands to communicate with their audiences 94 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,000 and own their own audiences as well. 95 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,440 Then then perhaps other other developments in this space. 96 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,800 Because the, there's another area that's been developing is 97 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,480 this unbranded content where brands are not involved or not 98 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,960 not they're funding the content, but they might be exploiting it 99 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,840 in different ways, whereas the content you couldn't tell they 100 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:55,760 were involved. So it's just that's a very 101 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,680 different approach, isn't it? And I suppose there's different, 102 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,760 you know, different approaches for different brands might, 103 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,440 might work. But to me, the, the brands as 104 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:09,560 broadcasters approach seems to be a lot of companies that are 105 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,160 doing very, very well for the sign in, for example. 106 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,720 And, and there's many, many, many examples of that. 107 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,240 I mean, where do you, you know how when you speak to a brand 108 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,280 who are interested in particular in social media and creating 109 00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:27,160 their own channels and, and becoming like moving into this, 110 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,760 this area, what's, what's the biggest hurdles? 111 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:30,240 What? What? 112 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:34,000 Is there any real convincing you need to do? 113 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,640 Or they've already made their mind that this is something that 114 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,240 they want to do. Yeah, I would say, I mean, every 115 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,600 brand is different and every brand is on a different stage of 116 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,560 their journey. I would say it kind of goes 117 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,440 traditional advertising on the size of buses, on TV, things 118 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,320 like that through to working with with publishers and 119 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,960 partners where you're renting their audiences because you're 120 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,440 kind of dipping your toe in that world of branded entertainment. 121 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,080 And we're kind of the next phase on that journey. 122 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,120 I think where it's like this is about owning your own audience. 123 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,400 I think brands who who've never done brand partnerships before, 124 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,880 that takes a lot more convincing of why it's valuable and why 125 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,040 they should be doing it themselves. 126 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,880 You're trying to convince some kind of two things at once, a 127 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,360 why you should do branded entertainment at all and then 128 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:19,000 why you should be doing it on your own channels. 129 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,920 Whereas brands who have kind of done the brand partnerships 130 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,440 thing a little bit, or maybe they've worked with creators or 131 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,920 they've done influencer partnerships. 132 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,240 If it's less of a stretch to then say, actually you should be 133 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,160 really making a virtue of this and, and, and being proud of the 134 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,600 fact that you're doing it and so doing it on your own channels. 135 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,000 But I would say like the, there are lots of different hurdles as 136 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,680 well. Sometimes it is, you know, we've 137 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,720 obviously been doing a big kind of roadshow and education piece 138 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,680 around media agencies, creative agencies and brands themselves 139 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,200 and just just telling them about our offering and, and, and you 140 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,520 know, how we do what we do and why we think it's valuable. 141 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,080 And you know, understandably for some media agencies, the 142 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:00,840 question they have is like, well, hang on, we're a media 143 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:02,720 agency. Why are we, why are we going to 144 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,520 buy media through you when we could just do it ourselves? 145 00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:10,200 And you know, then again, it's it for some media agencies that 146 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,560 might be a bit of a hurdle that we have to get over. 147 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:19,240 But it's about understanding or kind of working with them to to 148 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,800 help show where we can be really in the weeds of the content, the 149 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,480 distribution, reading the data and then feeding that back into 150 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,360 the content and adjusting the media plan accordingly. 151 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,680 So that we are working every asset and every bit of media as 152 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,680 hard as possible, all optimized towards audience growth. 153 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,840 And you know, there's lots of great kind of champions out 154 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,280 there who are really excited by this prospect. 155 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,040 You've got to convince them, then you've got to convince 156 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,280 their brands on their roster. Yeah, Yeah. 157 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,280 It's interesting you said that. I mean, if you're a media agency 158 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,400 and you make your money out of selling media and then your 159 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,920 offer is actually create your own media or build your own 160 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,680 media, isn't that just cutting them out of the the equation? 161 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,000 Well, no, we're finding that actually they're really good 162 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:09,120 people to be talking to because you know, because they they have 163 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,000 the partnerships budgets, essentially they're working with 164 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,960 their clients. A lot of media agencies are 165 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,680 already really, really well invested in branded 166 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,600 entertainment and they want to be the ones helping push this 167 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,480 forward. So we absolutely see them as a 168 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,160 partner on this journey because they understand the clients. 169 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,040 They have very good kind of long term working relationships with 170 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,160 them. They can help bring them on this 171 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,840 journey and also they can kind of, you know, educate us on the 172 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,840 client on what they need to get out of this. 173 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,360 And then we can, you know, figure out the best way to build 174 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,799 a media plan around that. So absolutely, I would say they 175 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:45,800 are, they're a partner that we work with rather than some week 176 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,440 someone we cut out. But of course there are certain 177 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,360 brands that that we would go to directly. 178 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,240 Maybe they don't have a media agency and, and we, we 179 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,160 absolutely work in that way as well. 180 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,240 And yeah, we're what's, what's really encouraging is that we're 181 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,880 finding that that we're having really fruitful conversations 182 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,920 in, in both the director brand and the the via kind of media 183 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,840 agency model. And do you think, I mean we, 184 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,080 we've seen a, you know, a few categories in particular, which 185 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,880 is you know, such as sportswear, leisurewear, etcetera that 186 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,360 there's sort of been blazing the trail for this, for this kind of 187 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,160 approach. Are we seeing many other 188 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,120 categories sort of adopting this then in terms of other brands 189 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,360 moving into this space? Yeah, and I think that's a 190 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,360 really, really good point because until now, I think 191 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,320 everyone thinks brands doing it themselves and they think for 192 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,120 Asylum, JD Sports, PrettyLittleThing, boohoo man. 193 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,840 It's very much 1 brand category and one niche of content as 194 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,000 well. But you know, the Dish I think 195 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,560 we can point to is like the gold standard in branded 196 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:55,400 entertainment that is mass market and, you know, broad in 197 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,640 its audience that that it's building. 198 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,200 And then it's really interesting to see people at M&S going into 199 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,880 that space. They just launched a series on 200 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,320 YouTube called Love That, which is I think, you know, trying to 201 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,760 do similar job to to what the Dish has managed to do, but with 202 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,600 a bit more of a kind of magazine format, which is interesting. 203 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,800 But then, you know, there are brands that are really 204 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,560 surprising, like QuickBooks doing a load of kind of creator 205 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:24,280 content on their own channels, which, you know, you would think 206 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,960 accountancy software might be the last brand that you would 207 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,120 approach with something like that. 208 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,200 But actually it it really works. And they've also found some 209 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,200 quite fun formats as well. Like Max Fosch explaining how he 210 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,200 carves up his income and how it works is like that's genuinely 211 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,160 something that I think an audience really cares about and 212 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,880 wants to know, especially a young generation of people who 213 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,400 that's what they aspire to now is becoming creators. 214 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,760 And so, you know, I think all of that is starting to show that 215 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,160 we're we're just at that tipping point where it's starting to 216 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,000 transition from youth culture brands to really every brand 217 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,160 should be in this space. And there's a great stat that 218 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,400 came out like last week, I think that Evan Shapiro jumped on, 219 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,280 which is the highest, the fastest growing sorry 220 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,880 demographic on YouTube is the over 50 fives at the moment. 221 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,720 And you know, that's not just my dad looking at people doing up 222 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,440 old cars like that is across the board. 223 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:21,280 So you know, whoever the brand is, whoever they want to reach, 224 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,760 the most effective way to do it is through these platforms. 225 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,000 So I think we're going to just see a lot of momentum for more 226 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,360 brands getting in there. And well, obviously, I'm hoping 227 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,880 very much to be kind of driving that momentum the forefront. 228 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,680 Of that and so you're six months old right It's a business just 229 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,240 six or seven months yeah yeah and can you tell us any any 230 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,120 brands any campaigns that you're working on yes, we've. 231 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,720 Got our first two campaigns which were in both in pre 232 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,080 production at the moment. The first, I can't mention the 233 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,960 brand because it's not been announced yet, but it's, it's a 234 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,800 it's a kind of appliance brand and that is that will be going 235 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,600 live in March next year. OK. 236 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,960 And then we are in pre production with a beer brand 237 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,840 called Primetime. We'll be going live with a 238 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,880 series with them in January, which is called the Low Cal Cook 239 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,960 Off. Prime Time are a low calorie 240 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,080 beer brand that's their USP and so January feels like the 241 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,480 perfect time for them to be getting into the content space. 242 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:17,720 Certainly does. We're all hitting the. 243 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:23,320 Gym, We're all trying to lose a few pounds, but they're their 244 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,640 kind of energy is all about it's bigger but better. 245 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,720 It's like, don't just try and like go yo-yo dieting or or be 246 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,520 really abstemious, but you know, find find ways to be healthier, 247 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,200 make better choices, but without sacrificing the flavour or the 248 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,240 fun. And yeah, we've got a really 249 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,360 exciting show. I think that kind of really 250 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,040 encapsulates that. Excellent. 251 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,200 OK. And, and do do all of your 252 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,200 shows, do they feature creators as talent then or what? 253 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,440 You know, how do, I mean, obviously there's two campaigns 254 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,160 that you that you're working on at the moment. 255 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,680 I mean, do creators need to be baked into into these sort of 256 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:02,400 shows to make them work or is that not not necessarily the 257 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,120 case? Not exclusively so, yeah. 258 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,880 But naturally we work a lot with creators and, you know, have a 259 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,240 lot of good relationships there. Also. 260 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,680 They do obviously work really well on those platforms. 261 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,320 So it'd be remiss of us if we just like totally discounted 262 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,280 them. But I would say there's quite a 263 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,840 broad range at the moment. I mean, it's early days, but I 264 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,560 would say it's roughly a 5050 mix in the briefs that we're 265 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:29,360 talking about between more traditional kind of legacy 266 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,080 talent, but in the social space and those kind of digital native 267 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,080 creators. What I always found at Channel 268 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,080 4, and we tried to do quite a lot is, is have a almost a 269 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,600 combination in in each series where you have someone that is 270 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,760 really speaking to that YouTube first audience and then someone 271 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,000 who's who was a bit more Channel 4 in that case. 272 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,680 But I think that that kind of chemistry works quite well when 273 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,880 you bring somebody who's not known for YouTube into the 274 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,840 YouTube space, but partner partner them with someone who 275 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,200 really kind of knows that dynamic and that vernacular. 276 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,600 Yeah. But yeah, it's so, yeah, the one 277 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,640 of the projects that we're doing at the moment is very much 278 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,800 creator LED. And the other one, it has a more 279 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,680 kind of legacy talent at the heart of it. 280 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,680 And I think the thing that really dictates that is, is the 281 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:16,840 brand and the audience they want to reach. 282 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,040 And you know, yeah, it's all really kind of built around 283 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:20,640 that. Yeah. 284 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:26,880 So 2026, you know, looks set to be really exciting time for, for 285 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,640 your sector, I mean, for certainly for digital first 286 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,040 studios and for, you know, there's lots of opportunity 287 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,520 around the World Cup and, and major events that are happening 288 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,760 next year. What's your outline? 289 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,920 I mean, I'm going to ask you for some predictions then for, for, 290 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,600 for 2026. I mean, clearly you're going to 291 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,840 predict that, you know, the branches broadcast is going to 292 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,600 be a big thing. That's the only thing. 293 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,160 That's going to happen. But but we will come back to 294 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,960 that. But what, what are the, what are 295 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,880 the sort of key trends that are you sort of expecting to sort of 296 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,760 pop off in 2026? Yes, we jump on the trends that 297 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,560 that were already in my other predictions. 298 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,680 Yeah, you. Can you, can you can talk about, 299 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,560 you can talk about anything that you like, right? 300 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,840 Yeah. I mean, I, I think the collab 301 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,840 posting on YouTube is, is going to make a change. 302 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,120 Like I think that's really exciting because I think it's 303 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,040 ways of sharing audiences. Whereas obviously that's been 304 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,600 going on on the short form platforms for quite a while. 305 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,040 And it's a really good way of kind of, you know, migrating 306 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,800 audiences across from a creator's channel to the to a 307 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,880 brand's channel or from a broadcaster's channel. 308 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,400 And I think being able to do that on YouTube, which is the 309 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,400 platform where brands can behave the most like broadcasters, 310 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,560 offers all sorts of opportunities. 311 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,040 Because I think especially where, you know, creators, if a 312 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,760 brand wants to be on a creator's own channel, they'll 313 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,640 understandably be very protective of that because that 314 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,880 is their, you know, that's their identity. 315 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,440 That's what they're known for. And so brands can only really 316 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,200 they'll, they'll kind of give them over a budget and then it's 317 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,200 like you do your thing with it, but there's not really any kind 318 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,040 of input the brand can have. And being able to collab post on 319 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,320 YouTube, I think will will make a lot of difference in, in that 320 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,320 you'll be able to get creators to appear on stuff that is brand 321 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,720 owned content. But you might, you may be able 322 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,520 to negotiate that they cross post it to their YouTube, even 323 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,400 on their YouTube shorts. And it allows you to kind of 324 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,640 access their audience without it being tied into like it has to 325 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,440 be exactly your editorial throughout the whole episode. 326 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:39,880 Yeah. So I think that could be a 327 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,320 really exciting development. And that's. 328 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,040 A relatively recent development on YouTube, isn't it? 329 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,040 For long form content in particular, yeah. 330 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:48,520 Exactly. I think that's the in the last 331 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,440 kind of month or two what's? Happened, yeah. 332 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,080 So, so yeah, we're we're really hoping to be able to use that 333 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,080 and for. For people who don't necessarily 334 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,280 understand what a collab post is, that is essentially bringing 335 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,360 your content, allowing your content to to be surfaced on on 336 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,839 your collaborating partners feed. 337 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,359 Essentially, yeah. And like, there's a lot of great 338 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,520 creators that are already doing it, where previously it might be 339 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,440 like KSI is going to appear in a video on Nico Emilano's channel, 340 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:17,800 but that will only appear on his channel. 341 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Whereas now if they do that, that will get posted on both of 342 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,319 their channels. So the creators both get the 343 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,319 value of the video, but they also get that shared audience. 344 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:28,040 So it's a really mutually beneficial thing. 345 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,080 And so, yeah, I can see why they've made that change. 346 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,360 I think it really benefits the creators and we'll definitely 347 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,720 have a play around with how how we can make it work for brands 348 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:38,760 as well. Yeah, well. 349 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,520 Certainly for brands, you know, they're looking at creators 350 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,600 with, you know, two and a half million followers or a huge 351 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,480 audience. It's like that's our audience. 352 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,800 How do we get to them? This is a it's a relatively neat 353 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,440 answer to that, to that issue, isn't it? 354 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,280 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and, and, and what else 355 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:57,880 now? I mean, you, you, you've been 356 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,640 obviously before fan club, you were at Channel 4 for a number 357 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,840 of years as commissioner on the branded content side of things. 358 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,840 In general, how do you see the branded entertainment industry 359 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,080 moving forward in 2026, particularly in the in the 360 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,840 digital space? Yeah. 361 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:22,040 So I think it's so I, I, I feel like in the last couple of years 362 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,360 we've had some really big milestones of massive like 363 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,520 YouTube shows that have then gone on to become streaming 364 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,440 shows. Like inside is the kind of prime 365 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:32,480 example of that. Yeah. 366 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,800 I think the next kind of milestone in is in branded 367 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,280 entertainment is in a big branded show that's a digital 368 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,360 hit becoming a linear or streaming show. 369 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,240 Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the dish ended up on 370 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,120 Channel 4 or ITV. Me neither. 371 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,960 I think, you know, and I think that would be amazing. 372 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,400 They would kill for, you know, the kind of audiences that 373 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,040 they're getting. So I think when that happens, 374 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,000 that will be a real kind of shift, I think in the mindset of 375 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,280 of a lot of the kind of legacy industry people. 376 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,400 And you know what, what I really hope happens is I think a lot 377 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,920 of, you know, the old guard, I guess of, of broadcast kind of 378 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,920 hold their nose about branded a little bit. 379 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:18,720 They still do. Don't they? 380 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,880 They still do. I mean, it, it, it, it that used 381 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,160 to drive me what it used to drive me when I was APR before I 382 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,360 started telecast whenever I was working with a, with a 383 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,880 production company client who said, Oh, you know, we've just 384 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,240 made a chauffeur Red Bull or whatever. 385 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,920 You know, the TV trades wouldn't touch it because it's like, and, 386 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,200 and it was that overall industry kind of looking down the nose of 387 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,280 branded and entertainment branded content. 388 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,560 It's like, well, why, what, what, what, what does? 389 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,920 And it's like, well, there's this is there was this sort of 390 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,480 sense that it it wasn't pure entertainment in some way, you 391 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,560 know, it was like sullied by brand being involved in it, 392 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,120 which I could never get my head around. 393 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,680 But but you, I mean you does that still, Yeah. 394 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,720 Well, and no shades to Channel 4, which you know, got a lot of 395 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,800 love for that place still and all the people there. 396 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,840 But I, I think there was a slightly an undertone definitely 397 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,960 of snobbery towards branded entertainment. 398 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:19,840 I would say that that is changing. 399 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,000 Like there's definitely a shift under way. 400 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,920 And they had the cancer doctors with Cancer Research that came 401 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,440 out recently. It's the, it's basically like 402 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,720 the, you know, the people who was finding the cures. 403 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,640 It was like a series about that that was branded entertainment. 404 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,200 They've threw their weight behind it. 405 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,440 It did really well. It got a load of press like 406 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:40,240 that. That's great. 407 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,880 But I think my slight bugbear is that I think people can tie 408 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,480 themselves in knots a little bit when they're trying to hide the 409 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,000 fact that it's branded entertainment. 410 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,960 And what I think creators have shown and a lot of brands in the 411 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,400 digital space have shown is that audiences are way ahead of that 412 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,680 when it comes to brands. Audiences are used to all day, 413 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,080 every day being, you know, bombarded with stuff from 414 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,280 brands. When they see a brand putting 415 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,880 out a piece of entertainment, if they go this is from JD Sports 416 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,440 or this is from Waitrose, they're like, of course it is 417 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,480 happy days. And then you move on. 418 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,240 And as long as you're showing them something entertainment, 419 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,960 entertaining, they'll they'll like around and create is a 420 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,920 brilliant at that. They have like an ad read 421 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,200 message, but they make sure they put it in in a way that's funny. 422 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,560 Like a lot of the time it elevates the content rather than 423 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,960 like disrupting it or distracting the audience. 424 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,080 And I think it it means that you're actually building trust 425 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,280 there because it feels like you're not trying to pull the 426 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,040 wool over their eyes. And I've, you know, I think 427 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,880 occasionally, and we definitely came up against this at Channel 428 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,960 4, we would have to find very kind of subtle ways of 429 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,800 shoehorning in a brand or like, getting it in in a way that's, 430 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,360 you know, editorially justified. When if we'd have just gone, 431 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:56,480 we're here with Dulux, it'd been like, Dulux is happy, we're 432 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,640 happy now let's get on with the show and you don't have to worry 433 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,200 about the rest of it. So yeah, I think as I say, that 434 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,480 wasn't changing that. Wasn't that was that was from an 435 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,400 editorial point of view, wasn't it? 436 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,400 That wasn't from a regulatory point of view. 437 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,080 Yeah, and and not to get, you know, too diverted into the 438 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,600 technicalities, we won't. We won't go too much into the 439 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,400 weeds on that. But but no, Channel 4 applies 440 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,320 the spirit of Ofcom to all social branded entertainment. 441 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,960 And the Ofcom guidelines for branded entertainment are like 442 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,720 they're guidelines for linear first and foremost. 443 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,360 But also, I think they are quite outdated, which means that then 444 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,880 they're nowhere near keeping up with the stuff that's going on 445 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,840 on the platforms, which when you're commissioning for digital 446 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,880 does make it a bit tricky because you're having to do 447 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,280 something, you know, the, the platform would be, would be fine 448 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,080 with it, the audience would be fine with it. 449 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,040 But because we're working in a quite ATV way, there's some 450 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,920 guidelines that wouldn't be fine with it. 451 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,040 So, and I totally understand the rationale behind having that, 452 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,000 but it feels like the way the world has moved, moved on from 453 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,760 there. But yeah, as I say, I, I think 454 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,200 that is shifting. I think it's shifting at ITV is 455 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,720 definitely shifting at Channel 4. 456 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,720 And so I, you know, I, I think we're, we're on a kind of good 457 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,680 trajectory, yeah. OK, so that's my. 458 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,080 That's my. Way of not putting any any digs 459 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,240 in I saw. That Yeah, yeah. 460 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,080 That was, that was yeah, that was very, very definitely done. 461 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:31,160 So we've just seen Angry Ginge when I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out 462 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,400 of here. We've seen, you know, the rise 463 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:40,040 of creator talent over the last, you know, 2-3 years and it's 464 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,160 really exciting time. I mean, we've also seen, we've 465 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,160 seen lots of agencies and the and, and talent fees rising 466 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,600 massively as well. Yeah. 467 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,560 How do you square that circle then when it comes to working 468 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,880 with brands and creators? Because obviously you have 469 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,400 definitive, you know, you have defensive budgets, you know, 470 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,400 that you can't move on from. I mean, are you finding there is 471 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,760 a squeeze on tunnel tunnel talent costs at the moment in 472 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:13,000 this space? What I am finding is that, I 473 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:20,040 mean, yes, in it's, it's kind of in some ways I think yes, it is 474 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,160 a little bit the Wild West still because talent fees, yes, 475 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,960 they've absolutely gone up over the last few years in a, in a 476 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,320 kind of meteoric way, but also in a way that it's very 477 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,920 difficult to, to track and to kind of keep across. 478 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,440 So what I've been doing a lot more proactively is building 479 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,200 relationships with agents, really kind of understanding 480 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:48,760 where they are with their talent and having a kind of a bit of a 481 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,000 kind of spreadsheet. Not in that literal spreadsheet, 482 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,640 but like in my head of like who the talent are that we really 483 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,080 like and really want to be working with and roughly what 484 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,320 their fees are. So that when we're working on 485 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,120 briefs, essentially we're never putting anybody forward that we 486 00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:05,480 don't know we could get them or someone kind of equivalent to 487 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,880 them. So I think, yeah, it is tricky, 488 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,840 but I think the way to navigate that really is to keep on top of 489 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:18,240 it and, and and have agency relationships, which was never, 490 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,320 you know, in my with my old Channel 4, Helen, it wasn't as 491 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,720 crucial because of that was the Indies having those 492 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,720 relationships. So it was a slightly more 493 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,960 indirect thing. But yeah, you know, and I think 494 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,080 I think it's kind of Fair enough as well. 495 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,280 You know, they know their value and they know their audience. 496 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,560 And so, you know, I think it's impossible. 497 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,000 It's important not to. Well, that's the. 498 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,640 Thing you, you, you the difference is you're buying 499 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,440 their audience as well or you're buying access to their audience, 500 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,800 should I say so? So that's the sort of slightly 501 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,960 different way of quantifying, isn't it, rather than just 502 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,600 having some talent on telly. Yeah. 503 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,680 And and just one final thing on on talent as well. 504 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:06,440 I mean, do do you, when brands are involved, I mean, some of 505 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:13,200 the more partnership driven talent formats might be, you 506 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,520 know, the, the, the creator because of the low production 507 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,720 costs that may be cut in as a deal that might be a sort of a 508 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,840 deal, which makes sense. You know, the creator's going to 509 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,360 give X amount of their time, but obviously they want to work with 510 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:28,120 a company that's going to build that brand and they can all, you 511 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:30,120 know, be successful going forward. 512 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,240 And, and, and we've seen more and more of that happening. 513 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,440 Does that tend to work in the in the branded space or is it much 514 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,080 more of a case of a much more simple kind of transactional 515 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,440 discussion? Yeah. 516 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,160 I mean, it can, it can work in that way. 517 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,680 It's there. There's definitely a bit of a 518 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,040 distinction between some creators are very used to just 519 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,200 being given a budget and be like, you're promoting this 520 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,680 brand, do your thing, post on your channel and it's a kind of 521 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,400 lump sum. And what we what we're doing is 522 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,720 obviously it's a bit more of an involved production. 523 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,440 It's it's more kind of formatted. 524 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,160 It's it's like broadcaster Jason Entertainment. 525 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,840 And so then it's about negotiating, you know, this is 526 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,840 an appearance fee, like it's for your time and we're not 527 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,920 contracting you to post about it, which is why it might not be 528 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,640 quite as much in your pocket because we're doing all of the 529 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,520 production and all this other stuff around it. 530 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,520 But ultimately then what, you know, what we're building is 531 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,520 affinity between that brand and that creator that could then and 532 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,640 often does like blossom into either like an ambassadorship or 533 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,920 further stuff that they do or they do something direct with 534 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,920 them, you know, on their own channels. 535 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,400 So there's lots of different ways that it could work. 536 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,880 There are also, obviously, you know, there's there's really 537 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,800 like great players in this space, in the kind of vodcast 538 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,440 space, which is definitely having a bit of a moment. 539 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,520 And I'm sure that's going to increase in the next year. 540 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,880 Like, you know, people like platform, we were doing very 541 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,840 interesting things where they're building kind of IP around a 542 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,680 talent and then bringing brands to that. 543 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:05,360 And I'm sure there's going to be, you know, in the future, 544 00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:08,480 there might be talent and a brand launch channel together. 545 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,880 Like I could definitely see that. 546 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,680 Like, you know, that's something we'd be definitely interested in 547 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,640 doing. I'm sure everyone else is kind 548 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,000 of thinking in that space as well. 549 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,680 So yeah, it's, you know, it's that, you know, talent's never 550 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,000 not going to be an important part of it. 551 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,680 And yeah, yeah. Like, and there's, it's never 552 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,720 going to be really straightforward. 553 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,360 Like there's just a list of rates. 554 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:33,200 So you just like, ask them for a day. 555 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,160 Yeah, yeah. Of course. 556 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,480 So looking again forward to 2026, I mean, one of the biggest 557 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,560 developments in this space, in the space of social video has 558 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,840 been micro drama over the last year or two years certainly. 559 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,320 And I'm talking, you know, the awareness of this is in the 560 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,160 industry in the UK, whereas other parts of the world, it's 561 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,120 obviously already hugely successful and and established 562 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:02,360 businesses. Could you see a brand funded 563 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,920 micro drama, you know, becoming successful in 2026? 564 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,320 I. Yes, I can. 565 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:14,760 I'm working on one in fact. OK, so yeah, because STV, the 566 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,200 partner who invested in fan club, they're obviously 567 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,040 traditional broadcaster and traditional broadcast studios. 568 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,720 So what's great about that is you know, I'm I'm in the same 569 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,200 building as all these Indies who are absolute genre specialists. 570 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,480 So with one of those production companies, we're developing up a 571 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,120 drama, a micro drama series with a view to take it out to brands 572 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,920 it, you know, and what we really want to do, because they are, 573 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,520 you know, they're making shows for Netflix. 574 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,480 They want to they're they're interested in micro drama, but 575 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,360 their issue is like it's quite like soap opera and telling the 576 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,440 Valerie, which like I you know, and I get why it is like that. 577 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,000 But what we'd like to do is try and find a way to like really 578 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,840 elevate it and turn it into something, you know, that could 579 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,560 win awards that, you know, hopefully will will get a big 580 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,480 name star involved in. And I think you know that. 581 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,480 So yeah, yes, I think, I think that will definitely happen. 582 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,040 I hope we're the ones to do it, yeah. 583 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,000 Yeah, well, it feels like, it feels like the next step, 584 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,200 doesn't it, in many ways. And we've seen Fox Entertainment 585 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,600 investing in holy water and. And they've already said that, 586 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,040 you know, AAA talent from Fox is going to be coming into some of 587 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,680 their micro dramas over the next year. 588 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,280 So it feels like a real, you know, one of these is going to 589 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,840 really pop off and, you know, but potentially create another 590 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,800 sort of subset of this whole exciting developing genre. 591 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:43,280 So just thinking about what brands are asking for now that 592 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,880 they perhaps weren't asking for a couple of years ago. 593 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,880 I mean, obviously you're going to say, but you know, we want 594 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,240 our own channel. They're all. 595 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,320 Asking that they're all of them hanging on my door so. 596 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,560 Thinking about 2026 and how brands are approaching this 597 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,040 whole space, is there anything that you'd specifically 598 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,160 highlight that they're looking for now that they might not have 599 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,240 been looking for, say, a couple of years ago? 600 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,840 Yeah, I think there's there's a couple of things. 601 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,200 I think particularly when brands are interested in branded 602 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,360 entertainment, they want to know beyond social, beyond this 603 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,440 series, what can this become? So we talk a lot about like 604 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,360 we're creating IP here. How then can that IP become like 605 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,040 super valuable beyond the campaign window, the. 606 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,760 Rights, The rights question, yeah. 607 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,920 Yeah. So, you know, does it become a 608 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,200 live event? Like could it be experiential? 609 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,680 Could we, you know, turn it into, you know, some merchandise 610 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,040 or a book or like. So with pretty much all of our 611 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,720 pictures that we put together now, we always think like long 612 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,440 term, where could this go and what could this be? 613 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,760 And I think that's something that, yeah, brands are more 614 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,680 alive to than ever. So again, you know, coming back 615 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,560 to predictions for 2026, you recently wrote in the drop that 616 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,360 you're looking at potential a lot of mergers, a lot of 617 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,440 broadcasters buying up digital studios potentially. 618 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,360 What do you, I mean is that could you expand on that a 619 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,720 little bit in terms of what you know what you expect to happen 620 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,920 from a corporate perspective in in 2026? 621 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,840 Yeah. So, I mean, I think we can see 622 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,800 it like if you look macro at the industry, you look at Netflix 623 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,320 and Warner Brothers, like there's a huge mass 624 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,640 consolidation happening across the board. 625 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,040 And I think that's kind of trickling down to to our 626 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,120 industry. And I think there's also a lot 627 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,320 of big players in the TV space who are clearly looking at 628 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,000 digital, getting into digital, whether it's by hiring people to 629 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,640 lead the charge or buying studios like Global just bought 630 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,400 the fellas studios. So I think it's clearly, you 631 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,320 know, you can see anecdotally all of these different examples. 632 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,640 I think what's going to be really interesting is who has 633 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:11,160 the patience to really stick with it and and kind of commit 634 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,760 to something that is sustainable long term growth. 635 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,880 Because I think there's lots of ways that you can short circuit 636 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,320 your way to an audience and, and to, you know, you know, whether 637 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,120 it's buying channels, whether it's, you know, betting big on 638 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,680 massive talent. But I think a lot of those 639 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,720 things, they can be very costly, whether they're costly upfront 640 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,720 or they're costly down the road as, you know, creators become 641 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,320 more expensive. But you know, anyone who's kind 642 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,320 of in this in this world knows that the key to success is, you 643 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,240 know, high quality, consistency and really being in it for the 644 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,400 long game and just like committing to that audience, 645 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,360 building that audience. And that's why we're, you know, 646 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,960 doing what we're doing, which is taking that approach to brands 647 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,520 and saying like, look, if you commit to this, that the Sky's 648 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,320 the limit, this can really become huge. 649 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,200 And I think the thing that the thing that I see with speaking 650 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,440 about IP, IP absolutely still has a place in the media 651 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,840 landscape, but I don't think it's any longer the most 652 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,000 important currency. You know, this used to be the 653 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,440 thing that everyone valued above above all. 654 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,080 But now I think audiences have replaced that, you know, with 655 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,800 the distribution of of, of, sorry, with the democratization 656 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,440 of distribution, anyone can build an audience. 657 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,000 And that is the thing that people can can commercialize on 658 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,320 their channels. Your format is very difficult to 659 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,480 protect when anyone can kind of copycat it or make a few 660 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,880 changes. But no one can steal your 661 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,239 audience, so there haven't. Been that many really original 662 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,639 formats coming through have there that have really, I mean a 663 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,719 lot of them have been relatively similar to large TV brands that 664 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,280 we've seen, you know, really pop off in the last kind of couple 665 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,199 of years. Yeah, yeah. 666 00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,040 Absolutely. And like with a different tone 667 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,840 of voice and different kind of energy to it and like feel a 668 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,719 little a lot more anarchic, which is great. 669 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,640 But yeah, I I think the studios and the big players who really 670 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,240 understand the audience is the new currency. 671 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,800 They'll be the ones that win in this new space. 672 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,040 And anyone who's really thinking like, no, actually, this is all 673 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,480 about clinging on to IPI think I think they might come across a 674 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,800 that's. Interesting, but but you're 675 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,280 still saying digital studios. You might find the bigger 676 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,520 distribution companies taking a shortcut and looking at the 677 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,280 buying of these digital specialists. 678 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,960 We might see a bit more of that in 2026, yes. 679 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,600 Yeah, I think so. I think so. 680 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:30,560 Yeah. Buy, yeah. 681 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,080 Buying studios and buying channels I think will be the 682 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,880 way. And now it's time for Story of 683 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,600 the Week, where my guests get to nominate the content industry 684 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,600 news story that's caught their eye in the past few days. 685 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,360 Joe, what's your story of the week? 686 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,840 Well, it's the AI bubble that everyone's talking about, which 687 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,440 I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole on. 688 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,800 I think it's really interesting. I mean, obviously AI it is, you 689 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,960 know, it's, it's like the Internet, it's not going away. 690 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,480 But I think there clearly is a bubble. 691 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,320 And so there's going to be a massive correction. 692 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,640 And I've been reading a lot about the amazing graph that 693 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,760 someone did that shows that all of the big players are kind of 694 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,880 buying each other's stocks, shares and wares in a kind of 695 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,400 economic virtuous circle, which is massively inflating the value 696 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,680 of those companies. They're basically investing in 697 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,440 each other. And then the, you know, the 698 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,880 company that makes all the chips is selling all the chips to the 699 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,400 people who make all the data centers. 700 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,960 Yeah, who are selling their data to Open AI? 701 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,440 Who are buying all of the shares in the chip? 702 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,600 Company and it kind of. Goes round and round. 703 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,080 So yeah, I'm quite, yeah. I'm just quite interested in 704 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,880 what that's what's gonna happen in the fallout from, yeah. 705 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,280 Well, I mean, it's, it's just from a, from a product 706 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,520 perspective, I mean, it seems to be me every week that there's a 707 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:53,080 new, I mean the new Gemini Nano banana. 708 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,800 I think it is that, that that launched night last week. 709 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,720 So many experts. I mean, there's a lot of AI 710 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:03,520 experts on LinkedIn, right. So it's like a whole new 711 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,000 subsection. Do you mean they're AI, they're 712 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,680 experts who are actually AI or they're experts in AI? 713 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,680 Well, they're. Experts in AI that are probably 714 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,360 using AI to post, but, but I'm saying that, you know, it's 715 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,280 almost like a horse race when you know, a new version gets 716 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,840 released, whether it's 5.1 of ChatGPT and then nano banana, 717 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,120 you know, they're, they're leapfrogging each other on an 718 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,520 enormous weekly basis. So it's, it's really interesting 719 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:39,520 to see to think how anybody can actually compete with Google 720 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,720 when you've got Gemini baked into it. 721 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:45,800 And, and I think ChatGPT has sort of stolen a lot of the 722 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,000 headlines over the last few years. 723 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,600 But it now seems to me that their AI game seems to be moving 724 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,840 ahead in many ways. But of course, you know, that 725 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,360 might be better at reasoning or a better image generation. 726 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,640 The ChatGPT, as I say, we'll probably best speak into an AI 727 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,960 expert about that. But but but it seems so fluid, 728 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,680 this market and fast moving obviously, that it's very 729 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,800 difficult to sort of know. And if you were to buy shares in 730 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,880 one of those companies, how the hell do you devalue that? 731 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,800 And who do you stick your your your bets on? 732 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,760 Well, and when's? It going to be profitable 733 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,840 because at the moment you would we would all have to be paying 734 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,480 like thousands of pounds a month in subscriptions for it for them 735 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,440 to be even breaking even. And so they're losing money hand 736 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,160 over fist, but also the with, with things like the Internet, 737 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,400 the, the more advanced it got, the cheaper the technology got. 738 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,600 But so far with AI, the more advanced it gets, the more 739 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,960 expensive it gets. So it'll be really interesting 740 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,440 to see like at what point does the price come down? 741 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,480 Because at the moment it's just like, it's crazy. 742 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,480 I. Think I get the. 743 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,360 I get the sense that if, you know, you Google or Microsoft, 744 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,240 you'll be kind of all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 745 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,320 But. Too big to fail too big. 746 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,000 To fail, Yeah. Yeah. 747 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,680 OK. Well, and what about Hero View 748 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,040 Week then? Have you got a person that you 749 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,280 can sort of give a, a light glazing to? 750 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,280 Yeah. My hero of the week is Zoram 751 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:19,280 Mandani and the new mayor of New York because not only because 752 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,680 he's, like, incredibly charismatic, like, has some 753 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,600 amazing policies, but his rise was in no small part down to his 754 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,520 social game. He had, like, incredible videos. 755 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:33,720 His wife did all of his branding and, like, the logos were 756 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,440 amazing. But like, they they really 757 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,480 understood how to use those platforms and to, to like, you 758 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,560 know, build buzz and, like, get people excited and. 759 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,320 And I thought it was like, that was really impressive. 760 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,760 Yeah. Yeah, it seems to me that to be 761 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,960 a politician, the social, your social game needs to be on point 762 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,200 there, isn't it? Absolutely. 763 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:55,800 Absolutely. And well, talking about 764 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,720 politicians, who or what do you want to throw in the bin this 765 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:02,960 week? Not not a politician, but 766 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,680 probably an aspiring politician. Grok. 767 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,480 Grok can get in the bin. Grok. 768 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:08,000 Right. OK. 769 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,640 We're back to the AI, right? OK. 770 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,400 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 771 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:16,120 I mean, just the the fact that it's so kind of clearly tooled 772 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:21,200 up to be like ultra like right wing and terrifying, but also 773 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,040 just the hilarious ways that grok no matter what you ask it 774 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,760 about Elon Musk, Elon Musk always comes out on top. 775 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:30,760 Who was The Who was who was funnier? 776 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,280 Jerry Seinfeld or Elon Musk was like, well, whilst Jerry 777 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,560 Seinfeld is very good at observational comedy, Elon Musk 778 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,320 really takes the biscuit for his like crazy disruptive meme LED 779 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,920 comedy. And you're like, OK, grok, you 780 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,160 know? This is there's a room somewhere 781 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,760 dedicated to me making sure that Grok, you know, speaks well and 782 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,160 being on Musk and Tesla and all his other interests. 783 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:54,120 Yeah. All right. 784 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,080 Grok's going in the bin. Joe, thank you very much for 785 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,840 coming on telecast. It's been brilliant to see you. 786 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,200 Yeah, you too. Thanks for having me and. 787 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,360 Wish you all the best with those two campaigns. 788 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,760 You said prime time. It's coming out in in January. 789 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,920 So local lager, I'll I'll might be on the phone to see request a 790 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,960 couple of samples there. And good luck with your other 791 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,360 campaign as well. So and and and indeed with all 792 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,040 of 2026. Cool, thanks. 793 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,720 Very much, Justin. Well, that's about it for this 794 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:25,080 week's show. Telecast was produced by Spirit 795 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,560 Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back very soon with a 796 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,000 special 2026 prediction show for the world of social video, so 797 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,880 watch out for that one. In the meantime, stay safe.