1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,240 And I told my investor at the time, I said this is the new, 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:05,280 the next big thing. We need to get involved. 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:12,160 We have made arguably one of the biggest budget of for vertical 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,680 that you can have ever done. Once you convert the audience to 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,200 the app, then you are more than halfway to succeed. 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,280 Vertical drama has a problem that I I I'm not afraid to say 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,120 out loud. Behind the data there are real 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:26,800 people. The real people are paying their 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,520 real hard earned money. Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and 10 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,840 welcome to another telecast this week. 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,000 My guest is Samantha Sun, an emerging force in the micro 12 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,600 drama space here in the UK. She's the producer at Real Force 13 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,680 Studio focused on high volume data-driven vertical 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,360 storytelling for social video platforms. 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,280 The work centers on fast turn around scripted micro series 16 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,600 blending creative development with analytics LED iteration. 17 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,120 Samantha, welcome to telecast. How are you doing? 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,120 Thank you for having me, I'm doing great. 19 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:02,640 How are you? I'm all right. 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,480 Yeah, I'm okay. This is our new set, so if you'd 21 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,920 have been with us a couple of weeks ago, we'd have been at a 22 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,880 round table that I've been using for ages. 23 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,720 But this is for anybody who's just listening on audio. 24 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,200 We're on nice country sofas now, right? 25 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,880 This is okay. I watched your previous episode 26 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,760 before and yeah, this is this is better, right? 27 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:24,120 It's a it's a lot more. Coding. 28 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,480 Yeah, exactly. I feel like I'm sort of, you 29 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,680 know, morning TV or something like that on the sofa anyway. 30 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:32,240 Well, listen, welcome to the show. 31 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,480 Thank you for for joining us. So you've been involved in micro 32 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,560 drama series for a number of years. 33 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,720 One of the people at the cutting edge of the of the industry. 34 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,120 It's obviously a fascinating area. 35 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,960 A lot of people in the traditional TV industry in the 36 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:48,360 content creation space are talking about this now. 37 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,960 So before we get into that, tell us a bit about your experience, 38 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,440 because I know you're a producer for Real Force now. 39 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,120 Yeah. But actually, you know, before 40 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,840 Real Force, you've you've been established as a as a micro 41 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,120 drama producer. Tell us about what you've done 42 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,400 in your career up to this space. Since 2023, I was at the time 43 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,280 working for another company. At the beginning we were doing 44 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,600 like interactive film, slash game kind of thing. 45 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,520 But at the end of 2023, I personally think at the time we 46 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,920 already seen the, the, the Rising of Drama Box and real 47 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:26,800 short at the time, those are like maybe the only big two. 48 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,280 And I told my investor at the time, I said this is the new, 49 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:32,320 the next big thing we need to get involved. 50 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:37,200 And since then for that company, we were internally developing 51 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,560 our own platform and I was in charge of the the content 52 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,000 creation. So we were since 2023 we the end 53 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,920 of that we were developing our own script and produced arguably 54 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:53,520 maybe one of the first five vertical that have been made in 55 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,520 UK working with Dan La Winstein who is our amazing director. 56 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,520 Shout out to Dan. I made two, another two in 57 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,800 America, made another two in China and then unfortunately the 58 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,400 platform did not come to life. So I ended up selling all the 59 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,680 show that we have made to Drama Box. 60 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,720 Ever since then I was a freelancer producer that working 61 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,640 with a business partner that we have done a lot of Commission 62 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:23,520 from platforms like Vertical platform. 63 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:29,160 And then I joined Real Force last year August, around August 64 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,280 time. And we have ever since we have 65 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:39,360 made arguably one of the biggest budget of for Vertical that UK 66 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,040 have ever done, right. Yeah. 67 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:42,960 And it's on air now. OK. 68 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,440 Yeah. Can you talk about what that 69 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,480 budget is? I would say double like a 70 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:49,760 regular vertical. Right. 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,240 Yeah, because. It's a medieval fantasy genre 72 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:59,200 and there's a lot of costume, big majestic locations and a lot 73 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,240 of post production involved. We have Wig Master on set. 74 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:10,080 Yeah, like the the on one day we have more than 90 people on set 75 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:15,280 involved, all Korean cars and we have a real historical castle as 76 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,760 one of our location. So yeah, the scale is different 77 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,079 for that. One, so give it so to in terms 78 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,080 of, I'm not going to ask you to give me a, a real, a full 79 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,680 amount, but are we talking between sort of under a million, 80 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,800 under £1,000,000 in budget? Oh, of course, yeah. 81 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,320 Yeah, but more than half a million. 82 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,040 No. OK. 83 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:36,640 OK. So it's under half a million, 84 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,200 but you know, but that is still significant, right, if you're 85 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:40,600 getting into the top end of that. 86 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,280 And half of that, right? Less than half of that. 87 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:47,680 OK, yeah, OK. Yeah, it's fascinating. 88 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,200 Any drama, any TV drama producers are like listening to 89 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,840 something like, Oh my God, how, how the hell did you do that? 90 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:55,120 But we're going to come on to that. 91 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,560 Yeah. So how many micro drama series 92 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,400 have you produced then? Roughly up to this? 93 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:05,480 Point, I would say at this point, more than 10, close to 94 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,320 15, right? Yeah, OK. 95 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,400 And it interesting you, you talked about your one of your 96 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,120 first roles simply sees a lot of parallels between the games 97 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,840 industry and micro drama apps in terms of you know micro payments 98 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:25,840 etcetera. Was that an important part of 99 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:28,440 your career? Do you think that informs really 100 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,960 how you approach producing micro dramas now? 101 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:38,000 Not necessarily like from the the application and yes, the the 102 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,040 monetization is kind of like game fight in a way. 103 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,200 But in terms of how to make, I think the idea from vertical 104 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,240 drama or slash micro drama is that how to make people addicted 105 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,680 to it? Like like how mobile phone a 106 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:58,600 mobile game made people addicted to, you know, spending more and 107 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,920 more time on their phone on the the the small little game. 108 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,880 So for that I think the the concept is that kind of similar 109 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:12,800 but not necessarily the same. And my interactive film slash 110 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,560 game experience haven't really brought to life into vertical 111 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,760 yet. But I know there are platform 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,080 like real short that have already explored that genre. 113 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,040 But I think because they are charging people more to unlock 114 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,680 more options for that kind of interaction, they're not doing 115 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,040 that well at the time, right in the vertical world at least. 116 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,680 OK, OK. So, well, I mean, let's talk 117 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,480 about micro dramas as a as a genre as well. 118 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,800 I mean, it's obviously incredibly popular in Asia, 119 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,560 really exploded there about sort of 3-4 years ago. 120 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,880 Is it or maybe has it been prevalent a lot longer than 121 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,080 that? I think the, the exploding, the, 122 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:01,200 the, IT has been, it probably started 2021, but there are 123 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,480 things going on way before that. But I think the reason for that 124 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:11,120 is my personal understanding is that China got hit by the 125 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,360 pandemic before the rest of the world. 126 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,640 So the industry has been completely shut down for that 127 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,560 reason and have been really quiet for a really long time. 128 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,320 So the investor with the capital, with the money, they 129 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:28,920 were more, you know, withhold like spectacle when it come to 130 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,200 investing anything like big scale, like traditional long 131 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:34,840 film and television, that kind of stuff. 132 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,240 So they're looking for something that are more flexible, more. 133 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,760 Quicker turn around for to returns as well. 134 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and also the idea of TikTok 135 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,480 also come from the, you know, the, the, the Chinese Douyin 136 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,560 like better than it's a, it's a Chinese company. 137 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,880 So I think the the Chinese people already like are so 138 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:03,040 hooked to the the vertical digital format of as their way 139 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,520 of consuming entertainment. And it's obviously being picked 140 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,600 up in the States as well. We've seen a lot of activity, a 141 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,600 lot of investment coming in now. Fox have obviously invested into 142 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,600 holy water and there's a so a number of different investments 143 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,040 from various different businesses across Europe as 144 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,680 well. We're starting to see what do 145 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,800 you think is really sort of triggered, Is there being a 146 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,240 tipping point you think in the states that made this AI mean? 147 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,880 Obviously, you know, the business model, the amount of 148 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:38,640 money that a lot of these really successful drama shows are 149 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,400 making, That's probably the trick, the tipping point. 150 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,320 I'm probably answering my own question here. 151 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,960 Do you think there are any shows or is any moments that you can 152 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,240 see that have made a major leap forward in the last couple of 153 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,800 years, particularly in the States? 154 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,320 I think it's the Hollywood turn to micro drama. 155 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:01,360 It's not only because when micro drama has been done, it's also 156 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,440 about what happening in Hollywood at the time. 157 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,480 If they're doing that well, they probably won't be that 158 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,120 interested. But apparently for whatever 159 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,760 reason, Hollywood is not doing that great. 160 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,920 Even the traditional film and television industry in this 161 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,280 country, in the UK where we were talking about it like it's not 162 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,600 doing that well. So it might be many, many like 163 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,840 different reason behind why it it, it the way it is. 164 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,720 But I think that the people's more hooked to smaller screen 165 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,080 rather than the bigger screen. It's probably one of the reason, 166 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:36,840 yeah. Yeah. 167 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:38,920 OK. So, well, let's talk about this 168 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:44,440 payment model then. And, and we're going to talk a 169 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,880 lot about, you know, how you develop a show to sit within 170 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,440 that payment model. But typically for anybody that 171 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,520 hasn't hasn't watched a micro drama series and gone through 172 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,280 the process of paying, you know, making micro payment. 173 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,720 Tell us about, you know, how that you know, how many episodes 174 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,360 you need to to can you watch on an app before, because most of 175 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,360 them are obviously sat within apps are the you mentioned drama 176 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,800 box and real shorts, and there are obviously lots of others. 177 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,320 Now take us through the typical viewer process of going through 178 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,560 watching free episodes and then being asked to pay to take us 179 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:27,080 through that a little bit. So it's normally one episode 180 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:32,760 from one minute to probably 2 minutes and a half, and normally 181 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,640 is from 30 to 70 episode per show. 182 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,200 It really depends on the the platform. 183 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,760 Each platform has their own way to approach it and what the 184 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:50,640 platform do is that they put their either trailer or like the 185 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:56,280 first three couple other episodes on social media like 186 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,240 Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube. 187 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:05,520 So and use paid ad to make it into people's feet. 188 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,320 And when people see that and they get hooked, then then, then 189 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,040 they will find out. They will be asked to jump to 190 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,920 the Apple store where Google Play to download an app and 191 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,160 registered on the app. Then when you turn to the app, 192 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,480 you already you can still see the again, the free episode that 193 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,280 you already watch on the social media, but then you have to 194 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,280 unlock to pay unlock to watch the the the rest of the show. 195 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,880 And when you when it come to that business model, there are 196 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,680 platforms that are doing subscription. 197 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,280 Sometimes the subscription give you like ad free or sometimes it 198 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,000 give you still ad but you can pay to you know, remove the ad. 199 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:53,960 Or if you can, if you don't want to subscribe, you can also pay 200 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,800 to unlock each episode episode by episode where you can unlock 201 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,040 the rest of all the episode as the package for a discount. 202 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,160 And they also have this game of game byte kind of model that is 203 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:12,480 like if you, for example, they have the coin system you have, 204 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,720 you can top up and the more you top up, they give you more in 205 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,320 reward. And you can like, like for 206 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,520 example, if you keep logging in for a whole week, they will give 207 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,760 you some free coin for for free to at the at the reward, 208 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,760 encouraging you to spend more time on their app. 209 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:30,960 Yeah. OK. 210 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,600 And, and presumably that works then, because traditionally, I 211 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,440 suppose, you know, migrating a viewer from a YouTube short for 212 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,160 to downloading an, an app and going to their App Store and 213 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:47,960 downloading app. This is sort of a clunky 214 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,000 process, right? That's like, you know, taking 215 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,360 them, taking them outside of YouTube, taking them onto the 216 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,160 App Store and then downloading and registering. 217 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:01,560 And what is it, you know that that that trailer, those initial 218 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:07,680 traders must be, you know, there must be incredibly attractive to 219 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,000 encourage that. So how do you make them 220 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:16,520 attractive? We, how can I put it, it's like 221 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,000 this is not negotiatable to us that to make the first, no 222 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,440 matter it's the first eight free episode or the 1st 10 episode, 223 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,000 make it as extravagant as possible. 224 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,600 We spend the most resource on those episodes, the the best 225 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:37,840 location, the best, the the best post production value. 226 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,440 You know, they the, and because the script also written in that 227 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,400 way, like they spend the 1st 10 episode really like trying to 228 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,200 snatch people's attention and make people hook. 229 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:56,000 And from the production side of it is that we spend the most 230 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,360 time, we spend the most money on it to make sure the 1st 10 231 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,520 episode always look as best, as good as possible. 232 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,160 And the acting, We spend more time polishing the acting for 233 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,360 the 1st 10 episode always. Right. 234 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,960 Once you convert the audience to the app, then you are more than 235 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,040 halfway to succeed. Yeah, that's it. 236 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,400 But that's the big challenge is converting them. 237 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,680 Yeah, I can imagine. OK, well, well, let's talk about 238 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,040 talent as well. What qualities or 239 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:30,800 characteristics are there within the talent that you choose to 240 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,360 portray roles in, in micro dramas? 241 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,880 I mean, what? What I mean, obviously, you 242 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,040 know, you just, are they just great actors that you're looking 243 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,840 at? Is there anything in particular 244 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,160 you're looking for the type of talent that you cast in micro 245 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,040 dramas, but you might not cast them in a normal TV drama. 246 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,960 I would say first of all, especially when I work with the 247 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,080 Chinese background platform, they are looking for a specific 248 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,040 kind of kind of look. OK, Yeah. 249 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,360 What is the look? OK. 250 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,480 I'm going to put it really straightforward. 251 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,520 I would say they're looking for Barbie and Ken, right? 252 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,520 Yeah. OK, and there's vertical drama 253 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,040 has a problem that I I'm not afraid to say out loud that is 254 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,880 the lack of diversity is incredibly horrible. 255 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:30,120 I, I don't think that I have the, the position to say why is 256 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,920 that or how we can solve it because, you know, I'm not like 257 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,520 work for, I'm not ACEO of the big platform. 258 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,080 But I do think that is the, I understand that we need 259 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,400 attractive people, but attractive people, you know? 260 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:45,840 Yeah. Well, casting, I mean, that's 261 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,240 every TV drama. Yeah, of course. 262 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they probably think that, 263 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,040 you know, the the the majority, the audience are like white 264 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,120 women. So they probably only want to 265 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,920 see white women and white men. But from what living in the UK, 266 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,000 from what I understand, that's not necessarily the truth. 267 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,720 I tried to convince them multiple times, but never never 268 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,240 worked out. But I had, I had. 269 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:13,240 I can see there's more diversity coming into it from the platform 270 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,440 that have like American background or like Ukrainian 271 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,080 background, let's say my drama. Yeah, that's one thing. 272 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:25,480 And the other thing is we are looking for talent that really 273 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:31,400 flexible in terms of like can quickly adapt to a new way of 274 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,560 working because it's really, really fast. 275 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,120 We, we need you to learn your line really quick. 276 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,440 We we need you to get your emotion like as quick as 277 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,480 possible. Like you're on it. 278 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,360 Yeah, action then you are on it. Like give us 100. 279 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,880 So, so give us an idea of it's obviously the production is 280 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:55,600 really compressed into a series what being shot over a week or 281 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:56,720 so we could. Yeah. 282 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,560 And we're looking at a script that is like a regular modern 283 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,640 ROM com setting. We will be. 284 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:10,079 Normally we would do it in eight days for a script that has 100 285 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:11,280 pages. Right. 286 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,319 Yeah, OK. And how long does the cast have 287 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,200 the script to to work with to to learn their lines? 288 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:26,480 On average couple of days? I would say if they get the 289 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,040 script a week before, that would be a really smooth one, right? 290 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,040 Yeah. But if they are given the script 291 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,200 like 3 days before, that would be considered not too bad. 292 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:42,160 Okay, okay, what is it? I mean, it's well, hopefully you 293 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,920 know, you, you're talking about talent and being sort of fairly 294 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,920 stereotypical in terms of this, but I, I guess we're still 295 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,520 fairly young in the evolution of micro drama, certainly in the UK 296 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,440 for Auk audience. So hopefully we'll see that sort 297 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,360 of diversify as as the audience gets bigger. 298 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,040 So talking about each episode we've talked about, you know, 299 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,920 the focus on the first few episodes to obviously drive that 300 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,480 adoption. How about you know that 2 minute 301 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:19,680 or or or 92nd episode when you're developing the script for 302 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:20,560 that? And I know you're not a 303 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,600 scriptwriter and that's not your, your area. 304 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,960 You don't. You're not working on the 305 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,920 creative side. I actually went to university to 306 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,160 study script writing for four years in China, right? 307 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,760 Yeah, but I don't do that in. Vertical. 308 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:34,560 Yeah, I'm a. Producer in vertical. 309 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:36,200 All right. Sorry. 310 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,760 That was the kind of assumption for myself. 311 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,600 But but but you're more involved in the production side 312 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,800 necessarily than the creative side. 313 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,720 Yeah. What is it within that 90 314 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,360 seconds or two minutes that you have to ensure that every 315 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:54,360 episode delivers? I mean, are there a number of 316 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:58,840 beats and number of number of non negotiables that you have to 317 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,400 incorporate in that short amount of time? 318 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,000 What are they and and how many are there? 319 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,480 I would say it's like it's like still like those classic 3 acts, 320 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,120 right? But within every 92nd the. 321 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,600 Beginning, middle and end in every section. 322 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,760 And you end with a cliffhanger. You, you end with a hook. 323 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,800 That's the that's a must. Yeah, so but the cliffhanger, 324 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,480 there's so many ways to do it, right? 325 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:30,240 Like we can end with the 2 character kiss each other and 326 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,160 the audience will be like, what gonna happen? 327 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,560 And you can end with someone, slap someone in the face and you 328 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,080 can end with someone say something really awful about 329 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,600 another person. And we need to see, we want to 330 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,160 see in the next episode if the other character are going to 331 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,360 fight back or they're just going to take it. 332 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,120 So many. We can do it physically as well, 333 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:52,640 like someone jump out of the building like we're going to 334 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,320 happen next. We have actually done it before, 335 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,760 like jumping off the off the the rooftop, you know, wedding 336 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,560 dress. Yeah, something like crazy like 337 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:01,520 that. And. 338 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,720 It's like that moment in in EastEnders with the drum beat 339 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,560 that comes in up on the end. You know, there's always there. 340 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,240 It's that, but obviously, you know, incorporated into nicely. 341 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,920 Sent. It might be corny, but it work. 342 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,800 Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Well, that's it. 343 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,160 It does work. Clearly it does work. 344 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,440 I mean, some of these major drama micro drama apps are 345 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,120 talking about extraordinary amounts of money that that some 346 00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:33,480 of these I mean what we do you get given what are what sort of 347 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,920 figures do you think are the most successful micro dramas 348 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,240 actually generating when it comes to revenue? 349 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:47,120 But in terms of revenue we are talking about, are we saying the 350 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,600 revenues are generated to the for the platform or to the 351 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,960 production? For the platform. 352 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,520 To the platform, I think one, OK, so here's the same when they 353 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,640 put 100 show on, not necessarily 100 that that would be an 354 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,720 exaggeration. But when let's say they put like 355 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:12,520 30 shows on their app every single month, not all of them 356 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,760 going to be ahead, many of them going to be flopped. 357 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,120 But one show, if it's really like a head hit, it can cover 358 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:26,120 all of the the the rest of the flop, the the, the budget, the 359 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:29,440 cost for all of the the rest of the the flop in your show, but 360 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,680 also still make revenue. So that's how big the number can 361 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,760 get, right? Yeah, right, right, right. 362 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,200 So going back to sort of the story beats and the type of 363 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:43,680 content, So the it's often, you know, it does play to stereotype 364 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,800 still a little bit, you know, and and I suppose the kind of 365 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:53,000 Mills and Boon type of romance, you know, the whether it's the 366 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,600 secretary falling in love with the CEO or, you know, we've seen 367 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:57,840 a number of these different sites. 368 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,360 Cinderella in a different. Way Cinderella in a different 369 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,760 way. I mean, do you see that 370 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,960 expanding a little bit and growing from that? 371 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,720 Sort of You said it was like slightly cheesy, slightly corny, 372 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,920 kind of. I mean, obviously they work for 373 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,840 a certain audience. But in in the UK, do you see new 374 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,840 genres developing, do you think over the next year or so? 375 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,000 Because we're still very early in our in our growth period in, 376 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:30,240 in micro drama in the UK. And I wonder how sustainable 377 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,000 that is to just create the Mils and Boone type shows for AUK 378 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,600 audience. Surely there is there are going 379 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,600 to be new genres coming through. Yeah, in terms of genre, I, I 380 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,080 believe the audience eventually going to get tired of if we just 381 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,880 keep making romance all the time. 382 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,800 But I think we can try different stuff, like we can try sci-fi, 383 00:22:54,800 --> 00:23:00,760 we can try horror, we can try a thriller, we can try something 384 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:05,680 with like sport or comedy. Comedies are like quite common 385 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,440 now for vertical drama, but the comedy bits are not. 386 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,440 That's great. That's no opinion most of the 387 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,120 time, Yeah. But there's so many different 388 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,920 things that we can do. But from from my perspective, 389 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,560 you still have to involve a bit of a romance into it based on 390 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,680 who the audience are, based on what the audience want to see. 391 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,120 But it but by doing so you embrace other genre into this 392 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,800 rather than just purely romance story. 393 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:38,000 You get to attract different demographic of audience into 394 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,600 this new format. But you also get to keep your 395 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,440 current romance audience because there's still some romance 396 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,720 element into it. There's still a man and woman 397 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,560 falling in. Love So romance do you think is 398 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,480 the absolute non negotiable in terms of micro drama? 399 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,040 I'm thinking if there's one platform that's not doing 400 00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:02,080 romance at all, maybe they're just doing, you know, like, I 401 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,480 don't know, Swirler Last day. For action adventure. 402 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,520 Yeah. Then you are facing a different 403 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,040 type of audience and the business format can be 404 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,280 completely changed. Yeah. 405 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,640 But if we're talking about the current base fan base that 406 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,240 already exist, I think woman is still a key. 407 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,120 And who are the current fan base then? 408 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,440 If we're talking about that, I highly shout out to Jen Cooper, 409 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,600 who is the amazing woman behind vertical drama love. 410 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:36,720 She actually conducted fence survey report that 1600 people 411 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,120 use their valuable time in life filling filling in and she 412 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,040 generates this really detailed report. 413 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,240 Those are the people that behind we always say the vertical drama 414 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,200 is a data-driven industry, which is not wrong. 415 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,440 It's absolutely correct, but behind the data there are real 416 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,160 people. The real people are paying their 417 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,440 real hard earned money, like into to finances. 418 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,720 These kind of things keep going. So I highly recommend that 419 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,280 anyone that are interested in this industry, especially for 420 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,600 production company platform, etcetera, go and download her 421 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,840 her survey report. It's completely free. 422 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,640 So by reading that report from the very beginning to the end, 423 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,680 I, I see there's people in there, you know, probably like 424 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:33,080 late 20 to mid 40s that are mostly teacher care worker, 425 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,440 housewife, you know, or some even you don't have like 426 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,680 difficulties in lives that are maybe they're disabled or, you 427 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:48,360 know, they cannot, like life can be a bit harder for some of the 428 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:53,080 audience that for vertical content. 429 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,680 And then in the survey, there was one saying that I see 430 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,400 someone written down that it really touched me. 431 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,120 And I will keep thinking about what they said because there's a 432 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:10,440 question that you want everyone to literally write down their 433 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,520 own unique answers say why are you why you watch this? 434 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,960 And this person said, because I'm disabled and I'm in a 435 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,320 wheelchair on a daily basis, but I still have to work. 436 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,680 So I don't have cinema is less accessible for me. 437 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,720 And because I still have to take care of my kid. 438 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,320 And I have I have worked 2 jobs. So I only have the time to watch 439 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:38,560 something or have some me time like long time my my time before 440 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,360 I go to bed. And that time probably only 441 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:41,880 going to be like 20 or 30 minutes. 442 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:47,640 It's not even long enough for me to finish a Netflix TV series, 443 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,440 like just one episode of the Netflix TV series. 444 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,600 It's not enough time for me to do so. 445 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,880 And I don't want to watch something and I would like to 446 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,920 watch something scripted, not like like brainlessly like 447 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,240 scrolling on my on my TikTok. Yeah. 448 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,880 And I see those are the people that are behind the cold number 449 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:09,760 that the industry have not really talked about or think 450 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,280 about. OK, Yeah, as they deserve. 451 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,840 OK, So what do you think there's, you know, there's a lot 452 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,640 of, I think there's a lot of broadcasters, a lot of 453 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,880 production companies starting to get interested in this space in 454 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,080 the UK in particular. I'm sure that we've seen lots in 455 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,000 the States already. What do you think that UKTV 456 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,440 producers might misunderstand about the economics of micro 457 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,320 drama and the approach in micro drama? 458 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,120 I think by if you watched him vertical drama, you kind of 459 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:47,920 already know how it looks like. But I think one thing is that 460 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,360 when you look at it from a traditional film and television 461 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,920 background, because I did the same like when I first heard 462 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,760 vertical drama was the thing I was I heard from the Chinese 463 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,200 vertical drama even before real short and drama box. 464 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,240 He did. I look at it and I was I asked 465 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,320 some of work in the industry, what the F is this? 466 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,160 Like I would I wouldn't want to be part of this. 467 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,760 Yeah, so but you need to understand why this thing exists 468 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,680 that that that number one like don't think of it as a 469 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,080 downgrade. Think of it something different 470 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,560 and stay humble in the way that you are willing. 471 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,560 If you want to make money out of it, at least spend your time to 472 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,080 research why this format exists. It makes sense with the 473 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,240 technology development. It makes sense with why the user 474 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,440 want to watch it. It makes sense technologically. 475 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560 You know how they're designed to get people hooked? 476 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,120 Yeah. The production value. 477 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,960 Yes, there's still you can. The more money you spend, the 478 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,960 more production value you can you can have. 479 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,840 It's not necessarily an unsolvable problem. 480 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,520 And the second thing is understand the distribution game 481 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:03,880 is not the same as you know how a regular low budget film will 482 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,960 be distributed. Like the whole licensing thing 483 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,680 is played completely differently at the moment. 484 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,560 Maybe it will change in the future, I don't know. 485 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,600 But it had developed since I was doing it for the first time and 486 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,920 then now it had like multiple different way to do it rather 487 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,600 than just one simple way. So I think those are the two 488 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,320 things for someone that have more of a traditional background 489 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,680 that when wanting to get into vertical, those are the two 490 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,880 things that I think they need to like do the research and step in 491 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,720 and then probably learn about it and then figure out how they're 492 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,440 going to approach it. Yeah, yeah. 493 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,400 And you said that the the business wants to changing all 494 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,560 the time in a number of different ways that that the app 495 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,080 businesses are working with producers, Are they 496 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,720 commissioning at the moment or? Commissioning is one way to do 497 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,320 it. Yeah, commissioning. 498 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,720 The good side of it is you're not going to lose your money. 499 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,560 Yeah, they give you the money to do it. 500 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,680 You keep your your profit and that, that that will be it. 501 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,240 Like no matter how how flop the show is, no matter how 502 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,640 successful the show is, had nothing to do with you. 503 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,400 That's not a typical TV industries of transaction. 504 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,720 That's that's a. Tradition and there's another 505 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,480 way is Co finance. Co finance means you put half of 506 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,240 the money, mostly half, but it depends on the percentage and 507 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,800 the platform put half of the money in it. 508 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,240 The the the script can come from the production company or it can 509 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:42,160 come from the the platform and you get to share the the revenue 510 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,480 that make. Revenue share at that. 511 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,240 Point. Yeah, but that is a high risk 512 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,680 game from what I understand that because the not you as a 513 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,480 production company, you put down your money to cover half of the 514 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,720 production. But for the platform, not only 515 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,680 they going to spend money on the production, they're also going 516 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,800 to spend time on the paid ad on social media to promote the 517 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,000 show. And that is a lot of money, 518 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,880 sometimes even more than the actual production budget for the 519 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,600 show. And when they share their their 520 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,880 profit with you, they have to take that part out. 521 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,560 Yeah, they have to recruit with. You the rest, yeah. 522 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,680 And so for them, the budget is not just whatever spent on the 523 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,400 production. It's actually double, probably 524 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,920 what? W potentially even more. 525 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,720 So think of that and think how much money you can actually get 526 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:32,640 back. Yeah, yeah. 527 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,880 And the other way to do it is you self finance or you, you 528 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,160 find other investor to do this show and then approach the the 529 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,320 platform say, hey, I'm going to sell this show to you, are you 530 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,120 interested? And you can license, you can 531 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,920 then be in a position to license it and give different windows. 532 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,600 And yes, does it have to be exclusive? 533 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,800 I mean, could you? Could you? 534 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,440 It can do many different ways you can. 535 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,680 It can be inclusive, it can be non inclusive, and it can also 536 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,120 be the first window, second window, third window. 537 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:04,800 OK. Yeah, as long as the IP is 538 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,760 yours, you can, you can do whatever you want. 539 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,080 But The thing is because there were so many vertical being 540 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,320 produced every single month, how great your showed is for the 541 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,280 platform to offer you a really good deal because they are 542 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,120 predicting their own stuff as well. 543 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,160 If they think that yourself is better than theirs, that's when 544 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,200 they can offer you a good deal. If they don't think yourself is 545 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,680 better than them, they will offer you a really shitty deal 546 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,560 and just just one more show on their their platform that that's 547 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,640 the only thing that it going to mean to them. 548 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,200 Yeah. Yeah, interesting. 549 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,320 OK. Well, obviously we know it's 550 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,240 super low budget. We've talked about that and the 551 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,000 challenges that come with that. But you know, potentially, you 552 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,720 know, really high rewards depending on which way you'll 553 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,680 you'll certainly for the for the apps and maybe for the producers 554 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,960 as well, depending on how you're approaching it. 555 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:05,280 But AI is clearly really important sort of driver in the 556 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,680 background to the whole micro drama industry. 557 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,400 How do you use AI in the production process? 558 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,560 Do you use it through every different stage of the process? 559 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,040 At the moment we are only using AI for the post production. 560 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,000 Right, OK. And for, I know people like 561 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,320 especially in the western world, we always talk about the, the, 562 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,560 the moral behind the, the, the usage of AI. 563 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,920 And for me, I just genuinely don't believe that people will 564 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,000 pay that much money to watch a completely AI generated show. 565 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,720 So it's not healthy for the, for the environment. 566 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,880 I mean like it's not eco friendly and it's not 567 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:58,120 sustainable for providing a healthy industry environment as 568 00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,880 well. Like long term long run, in the 569 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,680 long run people will lose their job. 570 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,240 We will have less talent that contribute to the growth of the 571 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,719 industry. So I'm highly against that. 572 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:15,280 Using AI to replace real actors. But for post production, yes I 573 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,360 did a medieval fantasy. I don't have Hollywood budget to 574 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,360 do all the post production, you know, like like how they would 575 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,480 do. So that is the the only way of 576 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,560 us using AI for now. I don't know what the future 577 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,440 going to hold, but yeah, for now that that's the only way. 578 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,080 Yeah, OK. So if you had to give one piece 579 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:40,719 of advice then to, I can imagine there's lots of UK drama 580 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,880 producers now who are, you know, not getting the opportunities. 581 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,159 The commissioning in the traditional TV industry has gone 582 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:53,480 away. Opportunities are certainly 583 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,840 fewer. But there are many drama 584 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,040 companies who've got, you know, great experience at making, you 585 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:05,400 know, really high quality shows. What single piece of advice 586 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,480 would you give them if they're thinking about exploring the 587 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,440 micro drama space? What what what? 588 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,520 What would be your advice to them? 589 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,200 I'll probably have if allowed. Yeah, what is understand the 590 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,080 format. Yeah, the second will be be 591 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:31,280 smart with your money, where to spend it in doing vertical the 592 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,160 budget that you have, you are not going to be able to do it 593 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,640 all. You need to figure out what you 594 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,200 can sacrifice and what cannot. Yeah. 595 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,320 Yeah. And make sure all of the money 596 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,960 goes on screen basically that's that's seems to be the key. 597 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,040 Yeah, OK, Yeah. And then where do you, where do 598 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,160 you see the the future of micro drama going now in the next sort 599 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,000 of 2-3 years? Because when you're really 600 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,040 experienced producer now, it's a must be exciting time for you 601 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,840 because everybody's talking about it in the industry. 602 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,920 There's lots of potential for it to go in lots of different 603 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,720 directions when it when it starts to evolve and mature in 604 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:13,080 different markets. So yeah, where do you, where do 605 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,720 you see it going there? I see. 606 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,920 I think personally I, I really thank vertical drama because as 607 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,440 a, as a foreigner that come to the, the country that before 608 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,400 vertical was the same. The industry is really difficult 609 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,200 for us people like myself to break in thanks to vertical that 610 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,680 that can't really come from the Chinese background that me being 611 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,320 a Chinese person that actually gave me the opportunity to be 612 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:44,080 aware I am today. It gave me a smooth start and it 613 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,640 helped me grow as I'm helping like have bring in more and more 614 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,200 production here in the UK, creating job opportunity for the 615 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,800 crew and cars and stuff. And yeah, and I think the in the 616 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,480 future as we can see the Hollywood is stepping in. 617 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,200 So from that for that, I think we're going to see a really 618 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,960 interesting thing happening. That vertical will be I believe 619 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,440 will be shipped into a different type of storytelling. 620 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,280 At least they're more type of storytelling going to happen, 621 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,040 not necessarily the only one like we talked about earlier 622 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,120 that I'm really interested in and I I believe it will, it will 623 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:34,240 be something more like the Chinese vertical and Hollywood 624 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,880 in between. Now it's just like English but 625 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,680 Chinese vertical, but with Hollywood and more people have 626 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,000 like high production value, experience, traditional film and 627 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,160 television, you know, people coming into this genre. 628 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,960 I think it will be somewhere in the middle from the Chinese 629 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,840 vertical type of thing and the Hollywood type of thing, and 630 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,760 somewhere in the middle of that, which is the balance of this 631 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:10,680 unique storytelling and a more morally correct and more high 632 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:16,440 end, more diverse type of story. Yeah, telling entertainment 633 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,360 format, which I'm really excited about. 634 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,000 I wonder if one day we'll see a Tom Cruise Mission Impossible 635 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,560 micro drama series. So, you know, I mean, well, we 636 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,960 saw that with Fox Entertainment. They're going to be bringing a 637 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,520 lot of their talent to their partnership. 638 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,600 Yeah, maybe holy water, right. So. 639 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,560 Yeah, if if Tom Cruise is down for it, I would like to be the 640 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,360 runner for that. OK, all right, OK, so let's 641 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:44,960 let's hope he listens to the show. 642 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,120 I'm not sure if he does, but maybe, maybe he should. 643 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,840 It's time now for a story of the week, Hero of the week and get 644 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,000 in the bin. So let's start with story of the 645 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,560 week. What is the main story in the TV 646 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,520 and broader content industry that caught your own in the past 647 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,240 seven days? Obviously, I'll be focusing on 648 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:07,600 vertical drama and I saw this piece of news that I think I 649 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,080 would like to share. So basically in the past week 650 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:17,800 CES 2026 in Las Vegas, Disney announced a major shift in 651 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,880 strategy for Disney plot by planning to introduce vertical 652 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,640 short form video content to the platform later in 2023, in later 653 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,680 2026, Yeah. So yeah, Disney is on it as 654 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,320 well. Yeah, Disney Sonic we also we 655 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,160 actually also saw recently that Tik Tok's launched a micro drama 656 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,040 app as. Well, yeah, yeah. 657 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,680 But I think it now exclusively in the US, yes, Yeah, yeah. 658 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,280 It's called pine. Something pine. 659 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:43,920 That's right. Yeah. 660 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:50,880 Yeah, and they also have their own TikTok mini that you can at 661 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:56,120 the independent production company or producer, you can 662 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,600 upload your own show and people can just pay and watch on TikTok 663 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,600 directly, right. So they don't have to download 664 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,440 any app. And as the content creator, you 665 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,360 don't have to worry about building your own app. 666 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,600 But obviously potentially they're going to take a cut and 667 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,320 Apple Pay and Google Pay that help people make the transaction 668 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:17,360 on TikTok, they're going to take a cut as well. 669 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,840 But it saves you from. The the the hostel of 670 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,560 distribution and building an app and stuff like that. 671 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,640 So I think it's a really good opportunity for more independent 672 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,960 people that maybe they have lower budget or they don't know 673 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,040 how to reach out to the big name vertical platform, but you can 674 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,800 still find your way to monetize it without having to go through 675 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,120 someone else's app or building your own app. 676 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,720 Or get a brand to fund it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 677 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,960 Maybe you can do like a pilot thing and put it out there and 678 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,640 test the the the water 1st and then use that to ask for some 679 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,440 investment or then reach out to the platform. 680 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,640 So they hey, see, I'm doing well now. 681 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,200 Yeah, this is this, this thing have potential. 682 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,440 So TikTok is doing that. So I think it's a, it's a good 683 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,120 thing for independent. It's really, it's really 684 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,080 interesting. We saw recently that talking 685 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,680 about brands, we've seen Popcha and Gamble launching PNG 686 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,440 studios, we've seen Starbucks, lots of other brands that are 687 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,680 launching their own production studios. 688 00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:23,480 So, you know, you would imagine that there's going to be more 689 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,520 and more sort of drama series that may be totally brand funded 690 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,280 as well coming up so. I would love to make a a show 691 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,400 like a like a sitcom kind of vertical that happened like to 692 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,280 barista working at Starbucks. Yeah, yeah. 693 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,960 Well, it could be like, you know what's? 694 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,600 That tubo girl. What is it like in in Friends as 695 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,320 well when they go to the, the, the, the coffee, the what's it 696 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,880 called? The, the, the cafe In, in 697 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:47,920 Friends. That's it. 698 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:48,960 Central Pet. Thank you. 699 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,560 Yeah, who knows? You know, there's lots of 700 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,480 different, lots of different formats that can work. 701 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,760 OK, So how about your Hero of the Week? 702 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:03,080 I think my hero of the week is that the people that even though 703 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,920 they might not have like a platform background or there are 704 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,640 many people that in the UK, they're more independent, that 705 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,640 they're actively trying to breaking in to vertical. 706 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,920 Even though as a production company that we might face some 707 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:27,160 sort of challenge. But at the same time, I believe 708 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,320 it's a competitive industry. It's a healthy industry. 709 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,960 If no one is doing it, it's about to die, right? 710 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,080 So the more people are doing it, if we have the platform from the 711 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,440 very top to the very end, we have more people that are 712 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,560 building their platform in the UK. 713 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,840 We have more producer working on it, meet more like crew working 714 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,480 on it and more audience from the UK based in the UK that are 715 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,120 watching it, that are consuming it. 716 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,280 We internally can build a healthy industry within the UK 717 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,600 because now the the platform are come from China. 718 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,640 But if they one day decided, you know what, we're not all, we're 719 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,000 all not going to go to UK to do to give them our Commission, 720 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,560 then we have, we are, we have been kicking out of this 721 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,960 industry because we have no infrastructure within the 722 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,480 country ourselves. Yeah. 723 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,520 Yeah. So your hero of the week is 724 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,320 basically everybody that's working within the micro drama 725 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,000 ecosystem? Everyone that you know, posting 726 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,640 things on, sharing information on LinkedIn, everyone talking 727 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,840 about it on the street or like everyone they're trying to, you 728 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,760 know, network with people, let's say, talk about how we can get 729 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,800 in. Or you know, even like like the 730 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,320 drop media that are, you know, posting article about it, just 731 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,520 just spreading it everywhere so more people hear about it and 732 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,320 more opportunity there will be. Yeah. 733 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,240 And the Digital Video Awards, of course. 734 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,760 Yeah, recognizing that I'm. Definitely going to submit. 735 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,120 Fantastic. Well, we're recognizing micro 736 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,680 drama apps and also series for the first time this year, so 737 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,360 that's exciting. And and finally, who or what 738 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,720 you're telling to get in the bin, Samantha? 739 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:12,760 That will be, I don't know, New Year resolution. 740 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,840 I don't know already. I I try to do it every year. 741 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,480 And this year I was like, you know what? 742 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,560 I'm not going to do it. Yeah. 743 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,960 Yeah. Because some you can't. 744 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,480 You can't be so determined to do something and life just hit you 745 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,160 in the face. It does, yeah. 746 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,480 And then you feel like a failure. 747 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,880 Yeah, I feel like a failure and now I'm just like, you know 748 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,160 what, I'm going to try everything, my very best and see 749 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,160 how the future, how the future going to go. 750 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,080 Yeah, without having a set goal and feel like a failure when 751 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,360 something happened and I I wouldn't be able to achieve 752 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,480 that. 100% let's all choke New Year's resolutions in the bin. 753 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,440 Let's let's show a bit. Yeah. 754 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:56,160 All right, fantastic. Samantha, thank you so much for 755 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,160 joining me this week. It's been really fascinating 756 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,120 speaking to you. Lovely Justin, thank you for. 757 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,040 Having me and I can't wait to hear about the next project 758 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,200 you're working on. Yeah, in micro drama. 759 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,840 If you invite me back again. Yeah, absolutely. 760 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,080 Let's do it. Let's do it. 761 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:10,880 And maybe we'll do something on the drop as well. 762 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:12,440 But thanks again for coming in. Lovely. 763 00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:14,720 Thank you for having me. All right. 764 00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:15,800 Bye everyone. Bye bye. 765 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:18,720 Well, that's all for this week's show. 766 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,160 Telecast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. 767 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,760 We'll be back next week with another show. 768 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:26,440 In the meantime, stay safe.