1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,320 Without further ado, Factual Futures. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:08,200 As I say, it's a bit of a staple of the of the event and we've 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,520 got some fantastic panellists to talk us through that and and our 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,400 moderator is Lucy Smith from Forks Digital. 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,720 So please welcome the panel to the stage. 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,000 So film your documentary on an iPhone, put it on YouTube and 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:23,720 make loads of money? Yeah. 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,240 Is it that simple? I am Lucy Smith, founder of 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,439 Forbes Digital Here to stay, a discussion around the evolution 10 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:36,240 of factual content and formats in the digital sphere, and I'm 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,200 joined by Titans in the genre. You're sitting in the different. 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,160 Are you sitting in the right order? 13 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,400 Yes. So Garrett Kemming, founder and 14 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,800 MD of channel operator, digital distributor and Commissioner 15 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:52,920 Quintus Studios. We have Marvin Benoit, former 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,800 commissioning Editor at Sky Originals and creative executive 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,280 for YouTube Originals and now founder of Baker's Dozen 18 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,640 Studios. And we have Jamie McDonald 19 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,280 development Don spearheading format development as head of 20 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,480 originals at After Party Studios. 21 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,120 So Bravo, pause, leave the guys. Good evening. 22 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,880 So we all know it's not quite as simple as just clicking upload 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:17,440 and then rolling in the Benjamins. 24 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,480 So I'm here to like at least say some of the myths to be good to 25 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,840 get the experts, experts opinions on this. 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,320 So Garrett at Quintus, you've spent years growing an audience 27 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:30,480 on your YouTube channel, and I think this is a theme that we 28 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,080 want to touch on throughout the conversation. 29 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,920 Is that like what is who delivers value here? 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,360 Is it people who own audience or people who own IP? 31 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,240 How do those two worlds interact So you're serving them with both 32 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,320 acquired and Quintus original Fractual content on your 33 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:47,360 channels? Why is owning an audience so 34 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:54,040 crucial to your business model? What it probably depends on what 35 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,320 you are, what you want to do. You can make money by for this 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,240 thing. You can make money by owning, by 37 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,840 by being a channel or being a distribution company. 38 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:06,480 We decided to be all of it because well, it's probably the 39 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,400 question where we come from. We come from being a distributor 40 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,320 and working in traditional television. 41 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:17,440 And for a long time we were also in the business of financing 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,960 productions like linear productions and especially 43 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,320 documentary series. And we did this by by going out 44 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,640 there with paper, paper pictures and finding pre sale money you 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,640 you needed like 5567 years ago, you needed like 3-4 partners to 46 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:35,240 be really able to fund the program that way. 47 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:43,360 And then saying from 2:20 on, it just took so long to get like 4 48 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,480 people on board or four companies on board. 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,800 And what it became more or less impossible to do so because when 50 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,360 you are #3 or 4 in the deal, number one was already either 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,640 merging with somebody else or budget freeze or out of the game 52 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:02,680 or whatever. So we decided, well, we not 53 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,360 decided, but we recognize our own chance in the meantime grew 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,720 so much that we can replace one or two or maybe even three of 55 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,400 them. And that was a lot more fun game 56 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,000 because we were, you know, we could decide ourselves what we 57 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,480 want to do. And yeah, that's why I think 58 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,480 it's for us, it was very important that we that we had 59 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,480 our own audience or still have it, because we can simply run 60 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,960 our own machine without being dependent on other players. 61 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,680 And so your audience becomes your main revenue driver, of 62 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,560 course, in that sense. I mean, Marvin, as a production 63 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,160 studio, you're coming at it from obviously a very different 64 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,640 angle. You partner with creators and 65 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,200 digital channels to get your new IP in front of their audiences. 66 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,320 So would you say creators are the new broadcasters? 67 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,240 And if so, how do you get your shows on their channels? 68 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,440 Yeah, As you said, you know, I come from it from a different 69 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,200 background, you know, tradition and tradition. 70 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,720 Traditional TV, you'd go to a commissioner, you'd pitch an 71 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,160 idea. If they liked it, they'd invest 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,000 in it and then you'd see it on TV on the screens, which would 73 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,400 made it, I guess when the strategy turns to bigger, fewer, 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,720 better, because the scale and the ambition of those ideas have 75 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,640 to compete with, you know, the global big series. 76 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:17,399 Like, you know, the shows that you might see, you know, a 77 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:19,200 squid, Squid Games, the the game show. 78 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,440 You know, that obviously is a huge show that takes so much 79 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,920 resources. And so how many shows of that, 80 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,560 how many, how many of those shows can a Channel 4 or BBC do 81 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,400 over the year? So those opportunities to try 82 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,720 out new formats become far and fewer between. 83 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,640 So I think the online community, there's, there's an opportunity 84 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,840 there to connect to audiences who are undeserved on 85 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,920 traditional TV and those communities, those, those 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,720 audiences are completely engaged with those creators. 87 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,400 And you know, those creators don't want to lose IP. 88 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,840 They don't want to lose the opportunity and the audience 89 00:04:56,840 --> 00:04:59,400 that they've made. So but they're, they're 90 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,760 screaming for ideas. They're screaming for, you know, 91 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,400 ambitious ideas and innovation. And I feel like that's an 92 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,880 opportunity to use my skills in coming up with ideas that I 93 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,720 would do for Netflix or BBC and trying to work with, you know, 94 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,640 broadcasters that are willing to invest on these platforms and 95 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,920 working with creators who want to talk to the global majority. 96 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,400 Yeah, I mean that that feeds into my next question actually 97 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,320 for Jamie, which is like if creators are coming up with 98 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,400 their own ideas all the time and are creating their own format 99 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,640 already, like what's the point of a production company? 100 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:36,200 Fair enough. Family. 101 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:43,280 Yeah, there is none yeah, that is that is a that is a fair 102 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:46,600 question. Well, I guess obviously not all 103 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,640 creators are created equal in that sense. 104 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,040 And it's like, you know, when you when you are talking about 105 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,160 some of the biggest ones in the game, EG the sidemen like we 106 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,280 are, we do work with them as a production company because we 107 00:05:57,280 --> 00:05:59,400 bring expertise in certain things. 108 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,920 For example, the sidemen match, we've been the production 109 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,960 partner for the past four years. It's something that we do very 110 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,720 well. And as Victor was saying 111 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,400 earlier, it's not necessarily something they do. 112 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,480 So so they bring us in in in that sense and it's sort of 113 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,560 horses courses. It's there are lots of creators 114 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,280 who want to do stuff on their channel forever and ever Amen 115 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,480 and want to do it alone and like fair enough. 116 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,920 They are not invited to our Christmas party sort of idea. 117 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,320 But there are many out there who maybe want to pivot, do 118 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,640 something slightly different, want to do something bigger. 119 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:33,200 Lots of them. Very few of them, I would argue 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,720 are one man bands like smaller ones for sure. 121 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:37,680 They do have one or two people, lots of them. 122 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,000 But if they're wanting to do a bigger show, then often they are 123 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,480 coming to a production company for your expertise or we have 124 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,240 the piece of IP like sharing IP, like we announced a show we're 125 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,600 at MIP that we're splitting with a that we're working with one of 126 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,520 EU KS biggest talents, Nella. That is an idea where it's like, 127 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,360 you know, two parties coming together to, you know, make 128 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,200 yourself bigger than the sum of your parts would be our 129 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:03,800 argument. Whether they agree. 130 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:05,400 That is obviously a different killer fish. 131 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,120 We're splitting IPS up to a massive part of that. 132 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,600 And if it's OK just to throw to you guys and talk a little bit 133 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,880 about that, like with with new business models and people 134 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,920 thinking about how to get new format IP commissioned and out 135 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,520 in front of audiences, like is it more important than ever to 136 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,320 think about splitting IP in imaginative ways? 137 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:26,440 Marvin, maybe you could speak to that. 138 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,400 Me and Jamie and after party have split IP. 139 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,400 So we we've created don't get catfished, which is on 4 point 140 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:33,680 O. And it's been a great 141 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,280 collaboration of using the innovation of like the 142 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,720 experience that you guys have in wealth of working with creators 143 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,760 and, and, and the productions and the way we, the, the speed 144 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,360 of which we are listening to the audience and collaborating. 145 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,880 And I'm bringing in my experience working in broadcast 146 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,320 and it's a beautiful thing. It feels like what we're doing 147 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,840 feels fresh. And the audience are responding 148 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,880 as well. They're like engaged and 149 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,160 they're, they're seeing the, the work that we put in. 150 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,360 They they're seeing that the format feels different to what 151 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,240 they're used to, but still feels, I hate the word 152 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,040 localization, but when I say localization, what I really 153 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,640 mean, it's not just about like changing language. 154 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,520 It's about a culture. It's about like cut cuts and the 155 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,840 way it looks, it feels like it belongs on that Channel and it's 156 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,800 for that audience and they accept it and there's a real 157 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,880 time reaction to it. And that's important. 158 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:20,400 You know, I think there's something that actually all 159 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,080 broadcasters can take note of and say actually we should be 160 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,960 playing in this field. Well, it's also, yeah, as an 161 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,680 industry, I'm sure everyone here talking to everyone is getting a 162 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,120 sense of that just collaborative energy that seems to be infusing 163 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,440 this sector as is growing. And I think that definitely 164 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,720 feeds into the tone of the content, which feels optimistic 165 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,120 and fun and playful, you know, both behind the camera and in 166 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,520 front as well. I mean, Garrett, obviously you 167 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,640 you Commission new content as well. 168 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,560 Like, do you have interesting models where you're splitting IP 169 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:49,520 with the people you're working with? 170 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,120 Yeah, splitting IP is a bit difficult game for us because 171 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,240 we're from Germany and you might have heard that there's some. 172 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,720 Bureaucracy. Problems sometimes in Germany. 173 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,720 So that means splitting IP is really difficult because you 174 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,120 wouldn't need to set up your own like complete company and asset 175 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,240 for each Co production that you would that you do where you 176 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,840 split IP. But what we do is that we work 177 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,960 in different ways with producers together. 178 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,760 So what we usually do is so at MO creative director sitting 179 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,720 somewhere in the audience and there he is. 180 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,880 And so he he built up this amazing cool of like really 181 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:28,320 talented and highly skilled film makers and and and VJ's that are 182 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,920 all over the planet and they know what's working for us or 183 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,480 what kind of topic buckets. And whenever they have access to 184 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,960 a story that they think would fit for us, they reach out to 185 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,720 Adam and him says, yes, let's go for it. 186 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,880 And then what we do is we usually cover their real hard 187 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,640 cost so that there is no margin, there is no, no like camera 188 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,280 equipment that they put that they own but put in the in the 189 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,600 calculation. So that's not what we could do. 190 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,640 But what we do is we offer our channel network and the the 191 00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,440 potential of generating money. Same for our linear and and and 192 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,320 and digital global distribution. And of all money that we make, 193 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,600 we give up to 25%. Cut to the police. 194 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,360 And that's the power of owning the audience, right? 195 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,760 Because then you have that you have that option going forward. 196 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:13,920 I mean, actually talk, talk about the money. 197 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,440 I mean, we all want to make money, right? 198 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,080 You know, as individuals, as companies. 199 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,400 That's how how we grow this industry. 200 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,720 And Garrett, you are creators, publishers, commissioners. 201 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,360 What factual genres make the most money for you and why? 202 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,240 Well, good question. So I shouldn't know my data. 203 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,200 Well, I mean, so it's so that how you make money is actually 204 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,400 on the one hand, the reach, of course, but then also where in 205 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,480 which territories you have what kind of reach, right? 206 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,080 Because that determines again, the CPM. 207 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,760 Like if you, if you have a big audience in the US, you make a 208 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,880 lot more money. Or if you have a small audience 209 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,040 in the US, you make more money than having a big audience in 210 00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,160 the Philippines, for example, right. 211 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,400 So it depends on which stories work where. 212 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,960 But I think for us, what is definitely one that works well 213 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,080 is engineering, for example, nature is a good one. 214 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,440 And then just because of of the of the the vast interests, it's 215 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,880 always what we call a danger porn, which is like gangs and 216 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,760 beckons and drugs and and tough neighborhoods and that kind of 217 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,880 stuff. So different KP is that come 218 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,200 together to make it to make it successful. 219 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,640 I think it was interesting as well thinking about AI and the 220 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,360 discussions we've heard today, like how those danger porn 221 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,360 stories, like they're, they're quite difficult to tell with AI. 222 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,680 If you're getting into real people's hives and that real 223 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,360 jeopardy, like so do you, you're quite confident that that will 224 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,360 stay people holding cameras. After seeing the the session 225 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,640 this this afternoon I'm I'm not confident of anything anymore. 226 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,000 Well you can either doing whatever dangerous things you 227 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,240 want. No health and safety. 228 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,160 And building you can you can be prompted. 229 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:52,560 I mean there is maybe even good for. 230 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,280 Well, it's interesting as well because obviously you've got 231 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,400 your, you've got your channels, you've got your factual genres 232 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,640 that perform really well, but also you're commissioning 233 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,560 formats, right. It's a new game you're you've 234 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,520 been experimenting with over the last few years. 235 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,200 And I know that one format in particular. 236 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,360 And the Green Deal is really interesting one to talk about. 237 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,840 It's like a flavour of Dragons Den for sustainable business. 238 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,440 Like how do you intend to grow this series? 239 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,480 How did you go about getting it funded and and kind of what's 240 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,160 the long term vision for a format like that, how you've 241 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,320 exploited? Yeah, In the end, the the 242 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,920 currencies always reach, right. If you have vast reach, then you 243 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,520 will be able to monetize it. And so the question is how do 244 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,600 you get the vast reach? And in this case, it's, and we 245 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,680 heard a lot about this today. It's bringing together big 246 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,920 creators with their existing audiences and find the model 247 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,280 that works for the show that you do, but also for each creator 248 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,240 and for their audiences, right. And if you do the right mix, 249 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,320 bring them together, then in this case together with a German 250 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,400 like DBU, which is a German, it's I would say like 251 00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:01,280 governmental institution that funds sustainable stuff in 252 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,440 combination with that, then brands will be highly interested 253 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,280 or are highly interested in the show. 254 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,720 Finding pots of money, guys, just find pots of money 255 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,400 everywhere. Yeah, that I think that is the 256 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,840 learning from the last 5-10 years, right. 257 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,480 It's not as you said, it's not like going to a broadcaster get 258 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,480 the money, produce it anymore. It's like Co producing, selling 259 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:29,360 afterwards, third window, second window, own audience finding 260 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,000 brands that funded, finding institutions that funded. 261 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,000 So it is that is the exciting thing, but. 262 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,480 That's literally our job. No, it's like, I think it I we 263 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,080 would have been chatting yesterday over, over a very nice 264 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,440 coffee and and it's like frontier territories for that. 265 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,280 It's like it's Darwinian adapt or die. 266 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,080 You got to go find the money. And I think that scares a lot of 267 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,800 people. But what we've talked about it 268 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,960 quite a bit. I think it's like super exciting 269 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,600 time. Like we bought a fully brand 270 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,080 funded 4 part doc series to to AUK broadcaster and they're 271 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,880 obviously they're like, yes, happy days. 272 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,000 We'll take that free show and it's a but it's a digital play. 273 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,760 So it's like this is this is the future, like all the the days of 274 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,160 1 funding TV is dead. It's it's like film, I would 275 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,360 argue of like patchwork financing. 276 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,800 That's the future, which is which is cool. 277 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,800 It's like it's not the end of the world. 278 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,880 Well, I think a kind of a bottleneck that a lot of 279 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,440 traditional TV production companies had is once they've 280 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,320 pitched it to X number of broadcasters, X number of 281 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,680 commissioner relationships, that kind of idea dies on a hard 282 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,600 drive, doesn't it? So if you pack it away, move on 283 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,400 to the next one. Whereas actually when you 284 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,600 rethink a model to say anyone could be a commissioner, whether 285 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,960 it's a brand or a toys and board or or a governmental body, it 286 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,880 kind of suddenly opens the playing field to getting things 287 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,520 funded in really different, interesting ways. 288 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,640 True, but the the dangers I'd argue for like for certain 289 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,480 brands or or or online. It's not like it's not that 290 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,040 online is where you get like you go to the bottom of the drawer 291 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,040 and pull out the dusty 1 and be like no one had this do do you 292 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,240 fancy it? It's like the online audience in 293 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,080 particular is like Uber discerning. 294 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,720 So they will they will smell a rat or or shit format quick. 295 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,240 And in the end it needs to convince the audience right? 296 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,080 If that so it might be maybe dusty or not. 297 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,040 But. If you're confident that it will 298 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,280 reach an audience, then you can maybe also find a way into it, 299 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,400 producing it, getting it out there to whoever with creators 300 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,600 or with a broadcaster or with a channel like us or you know 301 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,040 going to Jamie and they help you and then do it and then the 302 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,560 money comes later, right. It that is different. 303 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,000 It's of course more risky. It's it's more you need to be 304 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,720 brave and invest into something. But when you're convinced you. 305 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,840 I'm, I'm a believer in that in the investment, you know, the 306 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,720 CPMS are always changing, the negotiation and the dialogue 307 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,160 with these platforms are always changing. 308 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,040 You're going to have to look at the record industry to see when 309 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,760 it died and CDs stopped, there was conversations going on and 310 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,400 now they're happy how much money they're getting. 311 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,520 I mean, the artists themselves have a conversation. 312 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,840 But the truth of the matter is, is there is money out there. 313 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,320 So just get it out there and be, you've got to be in it to win 314 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,800 it. No one wants the BBC to become 315 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:00,920 blockbusters. Yeah. 316 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:09,400 Hey, Han, just know, but I think actually, Marvin, it would be a 317 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,600 great point to jump into this conversation about risk, right, 318 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,600 and about who bears the burden of risk when it comes to testing 319 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,120 E formats. And if you as a production 320 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,440 company like so believe in an idea, so believe in a piece of 321 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,560 IP, how do you use digital platforms to test and iterate a 322 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,400 new IP? Is it important to start 323 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,200 thinking about a development process at like as as trialing 324 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,520 IP on social media platforms look? 325 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,200 We, we need to I, I pitch ideas all the time. 326 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,360 Some get stolen, some people tell me no. 327 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,560 The reality is, is I know that I trust my process. 328 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,080 When you've got a good idea, if you believe in it, put your 329 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,920 money where your mouth is. I invest in my own shows. 330 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,600 I invest in my own tape. This is just an opportunity for 331 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,320 us to say, do you know what? I'm going to invest in it and 332 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,960 I'm going to pull it out and the audience are going to tell me 333 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,880 that it's great. And when that audience, when you 334 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,000 build that audience, when you can connect with an audience, 335 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,600 it, you'll see the traction. People will start believing in 336 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,040 something that exists because it's no longer in your brain and 337 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,119 there's an audience that love it and they will connect to it. 338 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,160 So I think it's just about taking innovation and taking 339 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:08,480 that. I hate the word for it because 340 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,400 it sounds really, you know, but like, it's that golden pillar, 341 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,400 like Sky used to always talk about this, which was like 342 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,440 content, technology, innovation. And, you know, and like, at the 343 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,280 moment, online is where that's at. 344 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:21,440 That's where it's happening. I feel like this is the 345 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,319 community where we're taking risks, where we are trying new 346 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:25,680 things. And we don't know where it is, 347 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:26,760 but you've got to be in it to win it. 348 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,920 You know, like if I had said invest in Bitcoin 20 years ago, 349 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,120 you probably wouldn't have done it, but now you'd be very happy 350 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:33,840 if you did so. Yeah. 351 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:34,760 So. Yeah. 352 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,400 It's also, I guess it's a, it's a question of price as well, 353 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,360 right? Because I think digital budgets, 354 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,480 a lot of people in the traditional TV space would look 355 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,040 at digital budgets and walk at them and go, oh, we can't 356 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,080 possibly create a series for 10K. 357 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,360 But like I think people have to be much more innovative in their 358 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,080 funding, their production models to think, how can I make 359 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,440 something as an MVP format, get it out in front of an audience, 360 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,480 test it, iterate it and then grow it into something 361 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,760 potentially bigger budget. I mean, does that speak to your 362 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,800 development processes and how you fund and get content in 363 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,640 front of audiences or not? I would argue not all online 364 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,280 budgets as in taking away streams are small, show us some 365 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,680 opportunities and we as a company be very fortunate to 366 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,640 work with healthy budgets. So I, I things like that is a 367 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,560 myth in in some ways I would argue, yeah, but then you're 368 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,200 just changing your, your production bottle. 369 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,040 You know, it's, it's not quite like, you know, stack them high 370 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,440 and sell them, sell them fast. But like in factual, you know, 371 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,000 we I would arguably say, yes, it's lower than some linear 372 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,320 tariffs, but there there is real ability to make to make good 373 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,440 money, but you are just doing it as A at a much faster pace. 374 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,240 It's like the spirit studios gentleman saying that that sort 375 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,560 of eight week turn around. It's like a catfish that Marvin 376 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,440 and I are doing together. It's like we we're doing that 377 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,000 quick from Commission to to shoot to F1 basically done is 378 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,120 like 6 to 8 six to eight weeks. We should best know that, but 379 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:03,520 it's. Then then second series is 380 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:04,880 commissioned before he even went out right? 381 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,480 Yes, that is true. Happy Days is there. 382 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:13,800 But yeah, I think it you'll be just adapting, adapting with the 383 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,840 times. And like obviously AI is another 384 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,840 Cutlerfish there that I'm not experienced enough to say enough 385 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,920 in, I would argue. Also, I mean there, I mean, I 386 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,560 agree that you guys are fortunate to to work on on like 387 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,160 significant budgets, but there is also and that is a good 388 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:34,720 thing, right There is the other way. 389 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,880 If you don't get the budget from from another player and you can 390 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,200 still do it and and YouTube is a place, for example, social in 391 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,000 general is a place where it's not all about like being the 392 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:49,160 highest quality shiny version of yourself, but maybe do it very 393 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,360 authentic. What we heard about is authentic 394 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:55,480 over but but I still believe it's like there is a difference 395 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,920 and you can do very authentic, very like basic production stuff 396 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,120 that is really. That is really successful and 397 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:07,120 for us, for example, so we need to decide which genres do we 398 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,480 want to want to go in. We we can't do on the budgets 399 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,160 that we work and we can't do like the big history CGI heavy 400 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,160 kind of documentary. That's not possible. 401 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,440 But excess driven where you can go like camera on your shoulder 402 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,440 and you the story is the is the actual success thing. 403 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,560 Then then it works. So you need to be smart in in 404 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,560 where you put your money, but there are a lot of options 405 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:30,920 because. Gary, you're arguing that the 406 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,240 online audience care less about the fluff in factual, more to 407 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,160 fluff as in the the shininess in in the factual format, the 408 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:38,920 Garner. Well, yeah. 409 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,920 Yeah, I mean, that works. It works like the very shiny 410 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,600 documentary works, but at the same time there is a big 411 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,520 audience for that story that you've never seen, no matter if 412 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,400 it's like GoPro produced or mobile produced or like big 413 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,160 camera produced. Yeah. 414 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,400 The the the tools have democratized the points to entry 415 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,200 and then people can experiment and take creativity from their 416 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,560 bedrooms and gain huge audiences and it's a very exciting time. 417 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,400 And it helps. It helps you prove IP very 418 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,160 quickly, right? It helps you prove it quickly 419 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,960 and cheaply without having to rely on a massive budget. 420 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,680 And then it didn't work. And then, well, that's gone. 421 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,640 The issue then being breaking through as as as there was a lot 422 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,040 of there's a lot of as we say there's a lot of Internet 423 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,440 landfill of like stuff that just piped out there and then you 424 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,760 have to work out how you breakthrough which is the issue 425 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,360 which obviously advantage for you Garrett holding having the 426 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,120 taps of like being able to have the distribution platform there 427 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,520 and. That's what we do a lot to to to 428 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,680 produce a pilot, get it out there, get the data, does it 429 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:37,600 work? Does it not work? 430 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,360 And then have something to show also to broadcasting partners, 431 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:41,760 for example, and then we do the series. 432 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,320 But I guess also that speaks to you Jamie, talking about the 433 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,160 show with Nella, right? It's like actually she owns an 434 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,880 audience. You're working with her to get 435 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,640 IP in front of her audience. So it's it's thinking very 436 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,200 creatively about how you can access audience with your new 437 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,440 IP. And if that's partnering with 438 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,640 the creator, that's just, you know, it's just a different type 439 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,560 of channel, I guess. Different. 440 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,920 It's like if you want to get an action movie fan, you get Tom 441 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,760 Cruise. It's like it's the same As for 442 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,320 many years before. I guess the danger is though, 443 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,280 that it that audiences don't always port. 444 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,880 I would argue when you take X person from YouTube on to 445 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,640 somewhere else, like 1 needs to be careful about that, 446 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,880 especially in factual, I'd argue. 447 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,000 And it's like authenticity of the person doing what they're 448 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,040 doing. If they're presenting a, you 449 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,080 know, a OBS doc or something, it's like there was some talent 450 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,920 to, I would argue don't, don't transition very well into that. 451 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,880 And I'm interested just kind of going back to the full 452 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,880 monetization of stuff, right? It's because regardless of 453 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,120 whether you've got a healthy budget or a small budget, like 454 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:51,760 we don't just want our our productions, our factual 455 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,120 productions to live as one series that kind of lives and 456 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,360 dies and doesn't go on to do anything else like it. 457 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:00,320 Would you say that digital you have to think very differently 458 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,200 about IP and quite imagine to be about IP in terms of taking 459 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,720 punts at the beginning and seeing stuff grow like for 460 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,240 example, like don't get catfished, amazing show, 461 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,280 Presuming you don't want it to just stay as one or two series 462 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,720 on 4.0, Like do you want it to become a big global hit? 463 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,080 Like what? How are you thinking about IP in 464 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,600 a different way? And I think that goes for for 465 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,040 all of you. I'm thinking about it quite 466 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,200 differently in the sense that I'm like, well, what is that 467 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,000 show that with all the bells and whistles? 468 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,760 And then how do I go backwards? How do I turn it into an idea 469 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,680 that can be made on a digital budget? 470 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,520 And like, what are the the parts of that show that could need a 471 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,760 test bed for a format? And I'm, I'm doing that 472 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,880 constantly in terms of all my IP now, in terms of figuring out 473 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,440 what at the heart is the granular about this idea that I 474 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,800 like and where would I love that trajectory to go? 475 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,400 Like if it was to go into Netflix, like we've seen what 476 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,360 the balloon do now, you know, like how how do you do that? 477 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:50,440 What does it look like? Yeah. 478 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,000 Well, the sound of catfish on Netflix sounds good. 479 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,040 We should, we should discuss it a bit later. 480 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,400 But yeah, for us I think it's like we'd like any sort of 481 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,320 production company. We we're looking to take 482 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,680 anything that we have and leverage it as in many in every 483 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,960 different way that we can, whether that be for a different 484 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,320 platform in English language and Deutsche elsewhere. 485 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,600 It's like for sure that is that is a lot of my time and, and our 486 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,440 CE OS Josh, Josh's time going out and doing that and trying to 487 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,320 push the long tail, so to say of our of our content. 488 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,840 Because as I said, there are big budgets, but all of them are 489 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,640 big. And you know, it is a bit of a, 490 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,080 it's a long term game in, in that sense. 491 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,680 But I think factual is very good for it as opposed to potentially 492 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,600 others, especially in sports. And that's something we've 493 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,400 talked about a bit. It's like sports is a real 494 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,000 growth area. I would argue in factual. 495 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,760 We've got 30 seconds left. So I think you'll probably just 496 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,880 round off with one final question, which is, you know, 497 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,440 digital can feel like a game where no one really knows the 498 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,480 rules, but you have to be in it to win it. 499 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,200 As Marvin said, Like what is the risk for traditional 500 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,840 broadcasters and factual production companies not playing 501 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,440 in this space? Keep it really quick. 502 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,400 We've got 10 seconds. Then I need to think quickly, 503 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,640 which is really difficult for me at least. 504 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:15,800 So I think they can play their game, go on with that, but it 505 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,080 gets smaller and smaller. So if they want to do so, either 506 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,000 they become the relevant set and they are happy with what they 507 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,280 what the leftover is, or they need to play the new game. 508 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,480 I mean, we're, we're seeing convergence ultimately where 509 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,480 like people are agnostic in terms of like whether they watch 510 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,000 on what platform with whether it's on your mobile phone or 511 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,080 your, you know, your, the TV screen or the tablet. 512 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,160 But I like the idea of like collaborate or evaporate. 513 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,120 Yeah, I like that. That's what you're choosing. 514 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,480 Yeah, I guess I see it like when they had the decision to go from 515 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,880 black and white to color. It's like it's an obvious 516 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,280 decision. They shall do it and they will 517 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,840 evolve. And I'm, I'm confident in that. 518 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,200 Yeah. No, but Darwinism in his best. 519 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,320 I'm here for that energy, right? Well, thank you so much, guys. 520 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,640 Really appreciate it. Chinese, the panel. 521 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,200 Thank you. Thank you.