1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,000 Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to another telecast. 2 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:07,080 On this week's show, I'm joined by someone who needs no 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,280 introduction in the world of social media. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,760 Sam Barcroft is back on the frontline in a major new role at 5 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,760 SWNS Group, and he's stepping into 2026 with an ambitious 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,720 remit as the news industry repositions itself for the video 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,160 first world. Sam's always been ahead of the 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,840 curve, from building Barcroft into one of the most influential 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,400 factual studios of the digital era, to mentoring the next 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,200 generation of creators and helping traditional producers 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,400 unlearn old habits. Now at SWNS, he's gearing up for 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,000 a year of serious growth and today he's going to lift the lid 13 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,040 on what the business is planning and where he thinks the smart 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,280 money is going in 2026. Hi, Sam. 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,720 Justin, good to see you. Lovely to be here. 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,240 It's been a long time since you last on the show. 17 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,120 I can't even remember how long, but it's it's. 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,720 Had a glow up. It's had a glow up since then. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:00,760 It has, yeah. Yeah, exactly. 20 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,360 No, we've kind of poshed new studio and everything but but 21 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,040 new surroundings, you're in new surroundings now. 22 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,120 I am. I am. 23 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,880 So, so we're going to talk about all sorts of different things 24 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,160 today, but first of all, let's start with your new role as 25 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:22,360 group CEO of SWNS Group. For those who don't know about 26 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,880 that business, because it is, I mean, it's it's, it wasn't a 27 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,320 surprise to me you taking over that role because it really sort 28 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:34,520 of reunites you with your early career in the newspaper 29 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,160 business. But many, many people in the 30 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,760 traditional TV business might not be aware of them. 31 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,720 So tell us about SW and S Group and your role. 32 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,760 OK. So, yeah, I got a call earliest 33 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,840 this year offering me the opportunity to go into the group 34 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,920 as Group CEO. And it just was one of those 35 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,600 that sat with me and and the more I thought about it, the 36 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,840 more excited I got about it. And so, yeah, I found myself 37 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,480 today kind of 3 1/2, four months into a new job there and it's 38 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,360 really exciting. So SWNS Media Group is 6 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,320 companies and part of me joining was bringing Creative Hill into 40 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,120 the group, which is a business I founded a couple of years ago. 41 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:26,520 And now we're really such an inflection point in the media 42 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,960 scene globally, especially in the UK, that it's an amazing 43 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,440 time to be part of a group that has lots of different ways of 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,240 doing business in the content and in the news media 45 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,440 specifically. So the group's got Creative Ill 46 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,720 in IT, which is a video consultancy. 47 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:46,080 So we help business leaders figure out how they can succeed 48 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,360 with video from startups all the way up to major broadcasters and 49 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,920 publishers. We've also got SWNS, which is 50 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:56,320 the original business, which is 50 years old. 51 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,240 It's the Uks largest supplier of news content to major news 52 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:02,600 brands, the mainstream. So it's like. 53 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,120 A wire service really isn't it. It supplies national newspapers 54 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,800 with news from all around the world. 55 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,480 That's I assume, not just UK. Yeah, we have brilliant 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,120 journalists and photographers and videographers all over the 57 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,160 UK and then we provide content globally and we've got people in 58 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,040 the US as well. And essentially when you read 59 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:25,120 the online Daily Mail or the Mirror or the Guardian or the 60 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,960 Times, often a lot of that content will come from SWNS. 61 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,160 You'll see the picture by lines. And it's a business that was 62 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:37,400 started in Bristol 50 years ago and is acted over a long period 63 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,200 of time to become the most kind of well known independent 64 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,280 newswire in the UK. That's grown out because it's 65 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,960 founded by people who really love innovation. 66 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,040 So it's grown. It grew out a company which is 67 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,520 now 25 years old called 72 Point, which is one of the top 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,320 ten consumer PR businesses in the UK and a really exciting 69 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,520 business. And then they've acquired other 70 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,440 businesses in the space. So we own a business called 71 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,680 Oath, which is a remarkable design graphic design studio who 72 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,600 have clients like Netflix doing design work for them. 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,760 We also have Pinpet, which is the UK's leading commercial 74 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,560 photography business for public relations and 1 Poll, which is 75 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,320 the kind of second most sighted polling company in the UK. 76 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:25,320 So it's this amazing set of businesses that really work in 77 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,120 synergy extremely well to deliver unbelievable value for 78 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,080 brands and for news brand news publishers as well. 79 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,960 And so getting back into that game was really exciting, 80 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,840 especially at a time when it's changing so fast. 81 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,600 Yeah, well, it must be like coming full circle for you 82 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,280 because when you were talking then I remember, oh, you did the 83 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:49,800 Barcroft wire was was obviously a photography wire service and 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,280 then which expanded into video, which then took you into the 85 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,080 whole world of videos. So it's like, so it's 86 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,800 fascinating now taking your experience in your learnings all 87 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,760 the way through building Barcroft Media and selling that 88 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,280 business and then advising lots of other companies to, you know, 89 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,320 now as you say, interesting inflection point going into 2026 90 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:12,800 is really exciting time, isn't it? 91 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,600 And I mean, I was going to ask you what what, what you've 92 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,600 learned through all the those years that you're going to be 93 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,720 taking to SW and S, but I suppose that's too big a 94 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:24,640 question. Not really. 95 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,960 I mean, there's a lot of lived experience. 96 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,000 I've made a lot of mistakes over 20 years of running a similar 97 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,880 business previously. And that's actually quite 98 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,720 valuable because I know where not to go, if that makes sense. 99 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,320 And often when you're building businesses, the common sense 100 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,560 next move isn't actually the correct 1, you know, So we all 101 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,240 trust our own common sense. But when you say common sense, 102 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,560 do you mean safe or perceived? No, I just think this, the thing 103 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,520 that pops to the front of mind of most reasonable people in 104 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,600 innovation is often the wrong thing to do, you know, and 105 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,400 that's, I can't really explain it, but it's something that I've 106 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,160 found quite often through my career. 107 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,520 And so knowing when you should concentrate on something that 108 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,800 feels counterintuitive, that's experience, you know. 109 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,560 And so I suppose I bring experience to the table. 110 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:19,200 And I'm also aware that moving companies through change is 111 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,800 challenging. You know, that's what I've been 112 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,280 doing a lot of in the last few years, helping businesses with 113 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:25,480 change. And so I bring that to the table 114 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,080 as well. But mostly I hope I'm going to 115 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,280 bring enthusiasm and try and build great culture, positive 116 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:34,280 culture. The biggest challenge that our 117 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:39,320 industry and content has at the moment, I believe, is an apathy 118 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,440 about the future. You know, and you really need 119 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,080 growth culture if you're going to succeed. 120 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,920 And growth culture is all about getting excited about what's 121 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,360 possible rather than terrified of what feels impossible. 122 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,840 Trying it right? Yeah. 123 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:56,600 And the way to do that is to be brave, to hold hands, to go at 124 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,160 things together and to accept you're not going to win every 125 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,080 battle. You know, you have to think like 126 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,760 a attacking midfield player, not like a goalie or a defender 127 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,840 sometimes. And so I'm getting quite excited 128 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:12,360 about supporting teams to be brave and to imagine what's 129 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,720 possible, you know, and then to try it and if it doesn't work, 130 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,280 to be around each other and say, hey, we gave it our best shot, 131 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,760 let's go again, you know, not to worry about getting this act 132 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,560 next week because they've messed up. 133 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,000 So, so really I'm trying to bring that energy of expensive 134 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,120 thinking or thinking outside the box. 135 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,920 And I'm thinking how we can actually move things forward in 136 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,680 a really positive way, not just for ourselves, but as businesses 137 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,040 within our group that really exists to service the wider 138 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,120 content economy. How do we make our clients feel 139 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,920 bold and excited about things? You know, how can we support 140 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,800 them better and better? You know, because that a rising 141 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,360 tide lifts all boats and I think bring a new wave of energy and a 142 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,480 new ways of doing things should be quite exciting. 143 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,160 You know, I'm on a mission to build EU KS most exciting new 144 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,120 Media Group. That's what I'm here to do, you 145 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,160 know, and that might feel bit odd in the creator economy that 146 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,760 I'm working in a traditional new sector, but I actually think 147 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,240 that combination of decades of deep experience and editorial 148 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,720 integrity has built a remarkable trust. 149 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,240 SWNS has trust like pretty much no other business in the UK. 150 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,360 If you then add that ability to speak to people all over the 151 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,160 world on multiple devices in multiple ways, you know that's 152 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:28,400 super exciting for. Me. 153 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:29,680 That's the opportunity, isn't it? 154 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,679 I mean, and that's, that's really interesting for a number 155 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,960 of different aspects. First of all, the trust and the, 156 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,159 you know, truth essentially, which we, you know, we're 157 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:42,480 starting to be challenged by AI, obviously. 158 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,240 I mean the amount of AI slot that I'm seeing on pretty much 159 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,800 all of my video feeds right now. It's hilarious, but it's not 160 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,120 great for us. Well, society, you know it. 161 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:55,240 Kind of, yeah. I mean it, it kind of is 162 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,240 hilarious, but I'm starting to find myself really annoyed by 163 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,680 them. You know, it might be, I don't 164 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:05,840 know, AI think I saw something of a swordfish jumping onto a 165 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,960 boat or a boat or something like that, you know, and, and, and it 166 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,840 was you could just it's that 5%. You can tell. 167 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:19,360 And my, my annoyance is that I just wasted 10 seconds of my 168 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,360 life watching this, this piece of AI generated slot, right. 169 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:29,040 And, but, but I think the opportunity, as you say, to, to 170 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,960 combine that, you know, trusted new sources with, you know, 171 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,720 amazing content and creating content that that people are 172 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,920 going to consume and people are consuming in many different ways 173 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,360 today is, is, is definitely an exciting one. 174 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,560 It's something that that you covered off in their recent 175 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:56,000 digital content forum panel with the Sun and Sky and ICN. 176 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,080 And that was really, I thought that was really interesting and, 177 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,560 and you know, perhaps points the way to the way that those news 178 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:06,200 organizations are looking at communicating with their their 179 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,280 subscribers and viewers as well. Yeah, I think the challenge for 180 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,000 established news brands is that for many years they were trying 181 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,160 to hold the line. They were trying to get people 182 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,160 to come to them. And they felt like by not fully 183 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,560 engaging with social media or the creator economy, they would 184 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:25,640 move people to come directly to their broadcast products, you 185 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,080 know, And the truth is that did work for some time, but now it 186 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,480 isn't working anymore. And so those people are now in a 187 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,960 race, you know, they really have to move very, very aggressively 188 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,200 towards those platforms now to try and regain the viewership 189 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,800 that they basically let through their fingers, you know, and. 190 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,800 Well, as a subscriber, he was like desperately holding onto 191 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,880 the subscribers, particularly newspaper Sense. 192 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,880 And that obviously massively changed and. 193 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,080 It's worked very well for broadsheet newspapers. 194 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,400 So when you look at businesses like the Times, you know, that's 195 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,760 in rude health and doing very well. 196 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,720 The New York Times in the US has proved that you can build an 197 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,720 amazing business out of games and recipes, but that that 198 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,800 supports A vibrant global news brand, you know, And so we've 199 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,920 got the examples of how to do news well, the challenges, 200 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,840 especially in what you might call free news or lower market 201 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,720 or popular news, that's been very challenged because the free 202 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,880 model doesn't work anymore. The advertising doesn't add up 203 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,800 to the sum to the cost of producing quality content 204 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,680 anymore. And so that's a massive 205 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:35,920 existential challenge to I, I think many levels of media, not 206 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,800 just news, you know, I think news in particular because news 207 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,040 is expensive and it doesn't have a shelf life, you know, whereas 208 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,200 if you're working in fact tent or entertainment, you can build 209 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,760 something that can make a lot of money over many years. 210 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,520 It's a bit tougher in news. The big problem is there's not a 211 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,760 documentary industry left in the UK. 212 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,520 You know, we'd like to pretend there is, but it's, it's a wafer 213 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,960 thin industry compared to just 10 years ago. 214 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,520 Yeah, it's interesting. We just saw Sunnyside as 215 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,680 shuttered as well. You know, which is the biggest 216 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:07,720 documentary festival in in Europe. 217 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,320 Yeah. It's such a shame, but literally 218 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,120 we've lost a whole industry, you know, and I think it's so sad. 219 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,880 You know, I aspired to be a documentarian for decades, you 220 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,520 know, and I was lucky enough to achieve that when we had strong 221 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,120 broadcasters in the UK commissioning lots and lots of 222 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,040 documentaries every week. Now it's an event. 223 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,160 If there's a fresh documentary on APSB, you know, it's 224 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,600 literally maybe one or two a week if you're lucky. 225 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,560 And so unfortunately the, the industry has been decimated as a 226 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:41,680 result and will continue to be. So really I'm interested in 227 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:47,520 continuing the the battle of bringing helpful information in 228 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,080 entertaining ways to the general public in the UK that is true 229 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,360 and real and actually based upon proper journalistic standards 230 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,280 and practices. You know I care about that. 231 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:04,800 And do you see parallels when it comes to the news industry and 232 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,240 the challenges that it faces now and the solutions that you're 233 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,800 coming up with with the traditional TV industry? 234 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,680 Well, it's interesting isn't it because the news industry peaked 235 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,600 in the 90's, the newspaper industry particularly, and it's 236 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:27,560 had and it had almost reinvented itself in recent years to quite 237 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,400 a stable model. What it had done is it had 238 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,040 worked out that if it wrote hundreds of articles a day on 239 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:39,320 every website and absolutely obsessed over SEO and thinking 240 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,880 about how it could make sure it reached as many people as it 241 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,000 could through search, that it kind of had a viable model. 242 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,680 And that was greatly aided by Google Discover, which pushed a 243 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:50,880 lot of traffic to reputable news brands. 244 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,680 Then a couple of years ago, Google Discover changed its 245 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:58,240 algorithm to favor smaller niche brands of factual content and 246 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,920 that destroyed the UK news industry. 247 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,400 You know, from a from a that online website perspective, the 248 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,920 difference in television is much simpler. 249 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,920 Actually, it's not one actor changing the way an algorithm 250 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:11,760 works. It's actually all about the 251 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,040 shift from scheduled viewing to streaming on video on demand. 252 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,480 If you've got a brilliant video video on demand site like a 253 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,600 Netflix or an iPlayer, you don't actually need very much new 254 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,640 content on the day. You know, you actually only you 255 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,000 need the the shows that everybody must watch the high 256 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,000 value shows. You don't need lots and lots of 257 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,440 features series 8:00 or you don't need lots of topical 258 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,040 documentary at night because you don't have any slots to fill. 259 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,800 You look at Disney Plus, how many new things are there on 260 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,520 Disney? Very, very few. 261 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,440 How many subscribers that they got over 100 million all paying 262 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,960 money every single month, regardless of the fact that 263 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,560 there's hardly any new things appearing on there, certainly 264 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,800 not to the volumes that they would have been across a UKPSB 265 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,560 kind of schedule. So really television is a live 266 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,520 events business, broadcast television now, you know, big 267 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,280 entertainment shows, large sporting events and major 268 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,320 breaking news. That's really all that's left in 269 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,400 television and streaming is now all about high value drama and 270 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,920 the odd pinnacle documentary, you know, and it's desperate to 271 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,200 get into the sports, live sports space as well. 272 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,280 So that's what's left. And so if I'm starting a 273 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,120 production company now, if it's not in those spaces, then I 274 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,000 really need to have a strong word with myself or I've got a 275 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,520 brilliant idea that nobody else. Has got caught on to yet. 276 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,240 You know, so it's a, it's an interesting moment and quite a 277 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,120 tough one for a lot of people. So for for your business, then 278 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,920 obviously you're very much focused, you know, you've 279 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,920 established group of businesses that you're looking at ways to 280 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,920 to incorporate the creator economy approach to, to the news 281 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,120 industry and, and the way that your your businesses work with a 282 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,960 wider world. It's from a service perspective. 283 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,560 Can we expect to see any new you talked about documentary brands, 284 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,040 because obviously that's something that Barcroft was, you 285 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:16,480 know, regularly #1 news service when it on YouTube for in the 286 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,440 UK, in the UK for a number of number of years. 287 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:26,200 And can we expect to see new brands being built? 288 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,360 You know that new consumer brands, are you going to go 289 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,880 direct to create new channels as well as well as servicing your 290 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,720 clients? Would you, would you, would you 291 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,960 look to make a return to to the sort of the the the factual 292 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,000 space when it comes to original channels? 293 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,800 Well, look, don't hold me to it Justin, because things change in 294 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,680 start-ups. As you know, although this is an 295 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,240 established group, you know Creative Hill is still a start 296 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,640 up within it. So that gives us a space to play 297 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,120 in those areas. I think there is interest in the 298 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,600 group to do that. We're looking at a number of 299 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:00,560 opportunities right now. I think that there's a gap, you 300 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,720 know, in that space because it's been hard to find ways to make 301 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,280 that make money. And so as an entrepreneur, I sit 302 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,040 here and think, well, is that a gap that needs filling? 303 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,680 You know, do, is there an unmet need in the audience out there 304 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,319 to, to, to, who are desperate to watch that kind of content, who 305 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:18,720 aren't getting it from other places? 306 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,000 Now we're just working through that at the moment and figuring 307 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,440 out where the demand lives. Because the one thing I've 308 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,839 learned from 20 years of messing it up and a bit of success along 309 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,480 the way is there's no point deciding what you want to make. 310 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,280 You've got to focus on what people want that they can't get, 311 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,640 you know, And that's the difference between a producer 312 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,120 and a publisher, you know, you know, and, and so you have to 313 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,000 have a publisher mindset, which is what's the, what's the 314 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,080 customer need that needs solving. 315 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,360 So for me, I'm working with colleagues at the moment to 316 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:50,000 figure that out and also figure out the crossover within the 317 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,840 wider group because obviously at SWNS we're reporting dozens of 318 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,240 exclusive news stories a week. We've got incredible access to 319 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,800 news based IP and stories and access. 320 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,800 And so that's really exciting. And looking at how over time we 321 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:12,240 developed that into a funnel of incredible potential IP and then 322 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,960 join content and then joining that up with what we can do at 323 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,000 Creative Ill, which is to build consumer brands from the floor, 324 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,160 from the ground up. That will hopefully lead to some 325 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,240 really interesting things. We've got incredible 326 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,960 journalistic colleagues, SW and S who have already had some 327 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,600 great success in selling access for some of that IP over the 328 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,960 years. And so we're looking at the 329 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,480 moment a couple of projects to get that going. 330 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:41,880 And then thirdly, really the big opportunity within the group is 331 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,920 the fact that in the wider group we have so many brilliant brand 332 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,480 con clients, you know, and when you think about the challenge 333 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,840 for brands, consumer brands, if you're a High Street brand, how 334 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,200 do you reach your audience through media anymore? 335 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,640 It's really tough. Before it was very simple. 336 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,840 You put some money in radio, you put some money on outdoor, you, 337 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,280 you, you bought some slots on TV and then you knew if you had a 338 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,600 campaign, you'd get extra people come in and buy your stuff. 339 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,360 Now it's very difficult to find your audience. 340 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:18,840 And so as we know, brands are seeking much more diverse ways 341 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,120 of reaching their audiences. Now we've got all this IP over 342 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:25,600 here, we've got all these clients over there, brand 343 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,320 clients really interested in new ways of telling stories. 344 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,240 Making that ecosystem work offers a a remarkable 345 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,200 generational opportunity I think. 346 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,560 And in the public relations branded content space, there's 347 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,160 there's a, there's a moment waiting to happen, an evolution 348 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,560 that's kind of brewing quite nicely at the moment there. 349 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,480 And so it's exciting times at 72 Point towers over in Farrington, 350 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,440 starting to figure this out and starting to work out how to 351 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,360 marry those two worlds of brilliant creative ideas and the 352 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:58,280 creator economy, you know, creative or working with 72 353 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,640 Point is also super exciting. And that's more about sort of 354 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,880 pull marketing, IE creating amazing content for brands or 355 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,920 brands creating that content, brands as broadcasters. 356 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,400 That's right, making content that people genuinely want to 357 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,720 see rather than interruption marketing, which is the old 358 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,560 advertising model. And there was a lot of money in 359 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,120 that, you know, in that space, maybe not so much anymore, but 360 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:25,240 there's brands still, you know, need to need to communicate and 361 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,280 find new ways to communicate with their audience. 362 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,400 Yeah, and if you go on TikTok shop, it's hard to differentiate 363 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,920 product anymore, right? You know you're just saying 364 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,040 stuff all the time. There's a million and one 365 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,760 services and products out there, so brands are struggling to cut 366 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,800 through just because really the shows we make at brands, but 367 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,840 also, you know, the stuff people want to sell at brands and it 368 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,520 all converges. And what's interesting to me are 369 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,640 companies like Car, Wow. I don't know if you're familiar 370 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,320 with it, but it's a brilliant car brand on YouTube, which does 371 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,720 remarkable videos that get anywhere between half a million 372 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,720 and 1,000,000 1/2 views per video. 373 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,160 And it's essentially a cool new Top Gear full of races, reviews, 374 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,800 fun, all the shot at absolutely top spec. 375 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,240 Well, it's not a car channel. It's actually a a car sales 376 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,080 business that has a YouTube channel put on, but it's really 377 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,080 now both a brilliant media brand brand, a brilliant car sales 378 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,120 company, you know, and it's turning over what fifty £60 379 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,440 million a year now by making videos that are so good that 380 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,600 people choose to buy their car from that place, you know, and 381 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,520 spend 40 grand on a brand new car via this YouTube channel. 382 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,680 And so though that is the way that content becomes a brand and 383 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:47,440 real life purchases and services or brands is now coming 384 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,240 together. We all know about Red Bull and I 385 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,400 don't know if you've seen the recent Everest, skiing down 386 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,760 Everest, Red Bull film, 20 million views in a very short 387 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,560 period of time, a brilliant documentary. 388 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,840 I think there'll be people out there that in the world that 389 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,720 don't realize Red Bull is a caffeinated soft drink. 390 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,040 You know, they'll just think it's an adventure channel, you 391 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,240 know, and and it can make a lot of money just out of its content 392 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,880 now, which is. And so as we go forward that 393 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,480 that kind of ability to build proper big consumer businesses, 394 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,760 which Mr. Beast is, I suppose the the biggest example of with 395 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,760 his new, you know, prospectus is it's really exciting. 396 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,400 And I think it's how the existing industry that we're 397 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,560 part of that's so good at the story selling element starts to 398 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,120 make sure it understands the elements that it's not as good 399 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,560 at and and is humble enough to realize that it needs to think 400 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,200 like that if it really wants to do another 20 years of being 401 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,280 commercially valid. Well, that's really interesting 402 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,720 point because I mean, you've spent a lot of time since you 403 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,520 sold the Barcroft business and since you exited future advising 404 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,560 TV, more traditional TV production companies. 405 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,360 And so, and just something you just said there is that, you 406 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:15,680 know, there's companies that are willing to adopt the practices 407 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,040 needed in the next generation of media because it feels like, I 408 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,560 mean, we were chatting just before we came on air about, you 409 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,320 know, 2, two years ago, it seemed to be the red flags were 410 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,040 really out for everybody. I mean, you've been working in 411 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,360 this industry for two decades, so you can see it coming for a 412 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,080 long time. And I think many others of us 413 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,600 that have been working around this space could see that 414 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,640 happening a long time. But the TV industry was like, 415 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,560 well, I'm not listening, we're not listening. 416 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,840 And obviously that's a broad bridge stroke talking about all 417 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,160 the TV industry, but I'm speaking specifically about TV 418 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,760 producers, independent TV producers in many cases who've 419 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,960 just been wedded to the way that traditional way that the 420 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,840 industry's worked for 40 years. But you know, and, and again to 421 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,160 an earlier point that you talked about, you know, that they are 422 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:08,680 producers because they are producing for those those 423 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,400 broadcasters that have got a need. 424 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,840 And now it is about thinking like a publisher and, and being 425 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,760 much more commercially minded about it in, in all of those 426 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:24,040 companies that you spoke to, do you, you know, do you think that 427 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,800 the traditional industry is willing to make that change? 428 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,680 You know, I mean, again, all the companies that you spoke to, 429 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,360 what's, what's your take on on to the traditional TV industry 430 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,640 now? Well, it's, it's as you'd 431 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,440 expect, it's a big, it has been a very big industry in this in 432 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,600 the UK. So there's lots of different 433 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,800 touch points, there's actually loads of success that you can 434 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,480 point to in there in in different parts, you know, so. 435 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,520 Yeah, so I realized it's a very capture. 436 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,160 No, but it's. Statements, we're talking. 437 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,560 I suppose I've had a lot of frustration because having made 438 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,760 that transition myself with my colleagues, you know, a big team 439 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,040 of us figured a way through the jungle, you know, And so we want 440 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:07,600 everybody else coming through the jungle. 441 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,840 We want to say, hey, this is the path, come through here. 442 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:10,920 You know, it's going to be all right. 443 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,720 Yeah, there's going to be a few dodgy bits, but you can make it. 444 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,720 Come on, let's go. And that's why I set up Creative 445 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,840 Build because I really wanted to help people get down that path 446 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,240 and to and to because there's never been a lack of interest in 447 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,840 improving people's businesses or those people wanting to be part 448 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,920 of the next stage. That's not been the issue. 449 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,800 The issue has always been a lack of understanding of how to do 450 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,800 it. We did it at Barcroft because 451 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,920 quite frankly, we couldn't sustain our news business 452 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,720 without getting money from publishing. 453 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,160 You know, we needed it to survive. 454 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,080 It wasn't an option. It was an SST. 455 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,680 So we have no choice but to lock in, go 100% in and just focus on 456 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,920 it. And, and we were very lucky in 457 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,320 the end that that came through, you know, and that worked out 458 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,320 well for us. We built 15 shows that made a 459 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,560 lot of money on social advertising and that actually 460 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,600 helped us sell our business alongside ATV production company 461 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,320 and that they both work really well together. 462 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,400 So we're very lucky that that in the end came together. 463 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:10,920 It was hard for a long time time. 464 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,200 Now the challenge is for people. They know they want to do that, 465 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,240 but they don't know how. So we we come in and we help 466 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,200 people with the how. And there we are. 467 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,160 There is a playbook on YouTube that is free that everybody can 468 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,960 download to say how do you make? But what the problem that most 469 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,040 TV producers have is not that they don't know that there's 470 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,840 instructions. They're all very bright people, 471 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,080 very talented people, and it's that they confuse the model. 472 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,640 So they think that there was this model in television where 473 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,520 you went to see a broadcaster with a great idea and said, hey, 474 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,880 I want to make this brilliant film. 475 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,040 And they said, oh, I love that film, what a great idea. 476 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,720 We'd love that. And they'd say, we'll give you 477 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,760 200 grand to make that film and the producer will go away and 478 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,440 figure it out. Maybe it's 220 or 210, but 479 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,080 they'd make a deal. Then they give the producer 1/3 480 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,600 of that money upfront and say go on, then go and make the film. 481 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,280 And then they give them a bit more and, and the producer would 482 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,240 essentially be cash flow for that whole piece of risk. 483 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,120 And then they get paid all the money when they deliver it, and 484 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:12,920 then it would get sold around the world, and they'd take most 485 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,640 of that money as well. And it was just an amazing 486 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,240 business because you got to go and make films that you wanted 487 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,360 to make all over the world. And somebody else was paying for 488 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,720 the whole thing, right? Who's not going to love that? 489 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,360 It sounds, you know, when you talk about that now, it's just 490 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,560 so. Ridiculous, right? 491 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,520 Yeah, Yeah, it's like a bubble. It was a 40 year bubble. 492 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,000 And so essentially that was based upon the independent TV 493 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,480 kind of sphere. And people like John McVey did 494 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,320 an amazing job of getting ridiculous terms that that 495 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,520 nobody would ever look at anymore, you know, these days in 496 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,840 terms of trade and things like that were absolutely 497 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,760 unbelievable for the economy of the UK. 498 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,760 The economy of the UK has been media economy has been smashed 499 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,880 to bits by YouTube and everything else. 500 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,720 And the establishment has looked away the whole time. 501 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,960 They haven't figured out new ways of managing that. 502 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,600 It's only just in the last year or two they've figured out that 503 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,400 those big companies needed prominence in YouTube and social 504 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,640 media. They left it far too little, far 505 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,600 too late. So the challenge now is you've 506 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,640 got TV producers saying, hold on, can I go to YouTube and they 507 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,480 give me 200 grand to make my film. 508 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,760 And it's like, no, it's a hard no. 509 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,400 They tried that a bit 10 years ago and they went, this is 510 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,360 ridiculous. Let's not do that because 511 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,680 they've got 10s of thousands or well, millions. 512 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,720 There's over 100 million YouTube channels out there full of 513 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,240 people like you just in just getting on with it, just making 514 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,800 the stuff and putting it out there and finding ways to build 515 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,280 a business out of it. That's the the offer. 516 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,080 The offer is YouTube says we'll share your content with everyone 517 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,120 in the world or 2 billion people in the world for free. 518 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,120 And then if that helps you out, brilliant. 519 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,520 And actually we'll try and sell some ads and if we can, you can 520 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,440 have half the money, right? It's a pretty good deal, you 521 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,120 know, and so. You'll see that's, that's the 522 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,520 important thing that people often don't quite grasp, I think 523 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,320 is that it's, it's about finding the niche. 524 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,360 It's it's just like, almost like narrow casting if you like, it's 525 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,920 finding the exact niche, but that niche, however, however 526 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,120 small it might seem in the UK, it's a global niche and that 527 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,640 could be many millions of people. 528 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,800 That's right. And and if you become number one 529 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,680 aquarium channel, you know, fishing, I, I wrote an article 530 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,440 about it called the Blue Cheese Channel. 531 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,280 And I said if I was going to make one channel as a individual 532 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,760 producer right now, I'd make it about soft blue cheese. 533 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,640 Yeah, right. Because there's no, I went on 534 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,840 YouTube and I love blue cheese, right. 535 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,480 And I went on YouTube, I was like blue cheese and there was 536 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,080 nothing, there was no blue cheese channel. 537 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,520 And I thought to myself, well, that's a massive opportunity. 538 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,920 It sounds ridiculous, right? Why would you do that? 539 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,040 Well, because you start making film about blue cheese, yet you 540 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,960 love it, You talk about it, you do taste tests you, you travel 541 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,320 maybe to a dairy somewhere to, to actually see them making the 542 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,040 blue cheese. You you meet other people who 543 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,000 are brilliant at blue cheese. All of a sudden you'll get 100 544 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,960 subscribers that absolutely love blue cheese. 545 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,440 There might be some blue cheese makers or sellers or 546 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,960 delicatessens in there. There might be some travel 547 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,600 writers or whatever. And you build a very small 548 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,000 community. But those people all absolutely 549 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,480 love blue cheese. You've got a community, right? 550 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,320 And once you scale that past 1000 people, if 10% of them buy 551 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,400 your blue cheese Christmas box, all of a sudden you'll make your 552 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,640 money, you know, And then if you think about it, if that then 553 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,520 builds to 10,000 people that like it, and all of a sudden 554 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,120 you're collaborating with a wine channel and they're trying to 555 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,840 talk about your channel, all of a sudden you've got something 556 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,040 that really starts to mean mean something. 557 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,080 The biggest problem that TV producers don't understand is 558 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,440 that YouTube is a 5 to 10 year game. 559 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,360 It's a third Horizon play. You, you, you start, you show 560 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,960 up, you do it for ages and ages and ages and you get nothing 561 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:49,920 back. OK. 562 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,320 It's like shouting into the void. 563 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,320 It's really miserable and it's really difficult. 564 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,000 But in the end, if you keep going and you keep listening to 565 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,280 the comments and seeing which what elements work of your 566 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,480 content, in the end it will start to work. 567 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,680 And when it does, it will can be transformative. 568 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,400 And so the truth is, that's why TV producers run a mile from 569 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:11,880 YouTube. It's because it doesn't fit 570 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,000 their business model. And most of the time, because 571 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,640 they've had a remarkable business model for so long, they 572 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,200 just can't get past that. It feels like they've been 573 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,240 cheated upon by the better. Half, you know, like it's. 574 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,800 Just a a piece of grief that they just can't move around. 575 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,400 And so, but if you're 20 and you're sat in your bedroom and 576 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,160 you want to do a channel about K pop demon hunters and you get 577 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,280 really excited about it and you make a costume and you do some 578 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,200 impressions and all the rest of it and you start getting well, 579 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,600 all of a sudden you've started a career as a YouTube and and you 580 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,920 don't have to go and work in the bank if you don't want to 581 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,000 because you can build something off your own back. 582 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,200 Now that sounds very trite, but it's true. 583 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,120 And the biggest entertainment brand on the in the planet, 584 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,200 Netflix, spends hundreds of millions a year on its YouTube 585 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,440 channel. It's because it's a remarkable 586 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,120 ecosystem that actually helps build brands like pretty much no 587 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,960 other, you know, and, and I don't, I'm not the biggest fan, 588 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,840 but it is what it is. And so the TV producers, I think 589 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,960 most of them should just not bother anymore. 590 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,640 Stop talking about it. If you're not going to find a 591 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,760 million or £2 to spend over, you know, 5 to 10 years and just 592 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,880 commit to it 100%, just shut up and get on with pitching your 593 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,640 shows to the same people you've always pitched them to and hope 594 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,160 that you'll get one of the handful of commissions that are 595 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,000 still available. You know, because that's your 596 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,400 business. And it is a handful. 597 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,760 Yeah, it is a handful and you've got to be really honest with 598 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,800 yourself, strip it right back, keep those, those two or three 599 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,200 people in your business that really, really make the 600 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,400 difference and slog it out and keep going and just focus on 601 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,360 what you are the very best at within your niche, within TV 602 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,600 production. And in the end, you'll, you 603 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,800 know, hopefully the business will find a way to make that 604 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,080 sustainable for you. But don't think that you've got 605 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,520 a lifeboat called YouTube that's going to come and replace your 606 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,040 business with a similar model because it just doesn't exist. 607 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,080 Yeah, yeah, yeah. When, when we, when we look at 608 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:12,720 YouTube and we see all the other social platforms as well, it's 609 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,560 giving producers access to data that they've never had before. 610 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,120 And obviously that can be quite daunting because it's like, 611 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,720 well, OK, that's great. But you know what, what do you, 612 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,040 what do I do with that? You know, and there is this sort 613 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,320 of very much the, the, the archetypal marketing funnel 614 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,200 isn't there when it comes to, you know, the amount of 615 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,720 impressions and then coming down to how long people have watched 616 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,960 the shows, etcetera. What is the single most 617 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,800 important metric that you look at from a YouTube perspective? 618 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,520 Let's let's talk about YouTube specifically. 619 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,080 Well. I don't think there's a, there's 620 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,480 a single one, you know, like when I look at YouTube Studio, 621 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,040 which is the back end analytics tool within YouTube. 622 00:33:54,640 --> 00:34:01,080 I suppose I do care a lot about views because subscribers, you 623 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,440 know, it's complicated, but essentially it's anybody that 624 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,320 ever thought it was quite good on YouTube might click a button 625 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,120 that doesn't mean they're ever coming back, you know. 626 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,239 And so I think subscribers is kind of like a a commitment 627 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,440 metric for how long you've been going and how many people have 628 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,679 at certain stage liked what you do. 629 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,040 I think views is what's more important. 630 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,760 So if I see channels that I've got sustained amount of views on 631 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,120 their network, that's important as a starting point. 632 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,920 But then it's all about engagement because as we know, 633 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,440 some brands will just pay a click factory in Vietnam money 634 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,040 to just rack up false views on. And it's pretty obvious because 635 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,120 you'll see something with 100,000 views and two comments, 636 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,199 you know, and you know from miles away that that means it's 637 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,560 it's all fake views. So, so it's a combination of 638 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,120 that. And most people don't realize 639 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,480 that the best feedback on YouTube by 1,000,000 miles is 640 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,880 actually qualitative. It's not quantitative. 641 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,720 So it's about looking at the comments and actually reading 642 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,720 those comments because those comments are what you can act 643 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:05,120 on. Yeah, it's really easy. 644 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,360 If you've done 5 videos in a row and they've each got 100 views 645 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,080 and then one gets 10,000 views, you definitely know organically 646 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,960 that there's something different in that video. 647 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,840 That meant YouTube put it in front of many more people, you 648 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,280 know, So that's a big signal, right? 649 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,520 But the other signal will be why? 650 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,920 And the way to figure that out is usually sits in the comments. 651 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,480 And so it's really about combining quantitative and 652 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,440 qualitative, but really digging into the qualitative because 653 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,680 that's where all the secrets are. 654 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,840 That's really interesting you say that and again, you know, 655 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,640 without harking back to much of the digital content forum, that 656 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,720 was one of the really interesting take outs that I, I 657 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:49,040 took from the investors panel and we had three of the biggest 658 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,160 investors into YouTube businesses there. 659 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,840 And they were just talking about that's how they're valuing 660 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,320 channels now and they're going in and super sizing channels, 661 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,120 investing in them, sometimes buying them outright and seeing 662 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,160 the potential because again, it's about community, isn't it? 663 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,960 That's, that's the, that's the other single biggest difference 664 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,640 about creating for YouTube rather than creating for TV. 665 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,280 It's like it's, it's, you're building a community and you're 666 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,800 listening to that community, nurturing it and, and listening 667 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,840 to what they want and creating for them. 668 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,720 And you can. So that's quite different to TV 669 00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:27,720 where it's like you deliver the show and then that's it. 670 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:32,200 And you might get, you know, the overnight you know to e-mail to 671 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,320 you like 2-3 months later. Yeah. 672 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,840 And, and I think it, yeah, that's the definition of 673 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,840 broadcast, isn't it, is to share something in the air and then 674 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,280 basically walk away. So, so, yeah, where's the 675 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,240 receive mode? There's not a receive mode in 676 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:48,600 that, you know, and actually YouTube is about building a 677 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,520 community and it's just basic IT, right. 678 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,320 So the IT guys are going, well, how do you get people to stay on 679 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,360 this site a bit longer? Well, you say, well, everybody 680 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,760 wants to be heard. So if we allow them to put 681 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,400 comments on something and they can have a conversation, then 682 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,480 that means a lot more than just watching something and going and 683 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,280 trying to talk to people down the pub about it or at school or 684 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,240 whatever. So, so it's just basic in, you 685 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:14,880 know, retention stuff like most of these platforms couldn't give 686 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,920 a monkeys about your content as long as it's legal, you know, 687 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,840 they don't care what it is. They're just interested in how 688 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,400 do you keep people on reels for that extra 10 seconds? 689 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,640 How do we serve you a few more ads, you know, there? 690 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,440 And it's a remarkable business. You know, Mark Zuckerberg said 691 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,680 he's going to get, he's on a run rate of something like 50 692 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,280 billion on reels advertising this year. 693 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,920 You know, it's an unbelievable amount of money, you know, every 694 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,120 year just on reels. And he doesn't even give any of 695 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,120 that back to the content providers. 696 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:45,920 You know, like he keeps all of it. 697 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,920 Like a few years ago, he just went, hold on. 698 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,240 We're giving these people that make the videos money, but 699 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,480 there's no point. They're not going to go away if 700 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,520 we take it all away again. And he was right. 701 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,520 So so he took all the money away. 702 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,480 And people are still putting all their videos up on there because 703 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,680 they have decided that being able to broadcast to everyone in 704 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,200 the world and get all that voice share of voice is actually worth 705 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,480 the money to pay for actually making it and sharing it 706 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,280 themselves. And so we have to be really 707 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,400 honest with ourselves and say, this is a remarkable business 708 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,080 model and how do we use it to be able to facilitate us to share 709 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,680 the stories we want to share. You know, we have to come away 710 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,720 from we deserve this or it shouldn't be like that and just 711 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:30,880 accept it how it is and lean in if that's useful to what you're 712 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,360 doing and trying to build. But instead of building a, a 713 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:37,320 business that just makes content for a living, which is getting 714 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,680 more and more difficult, I think if you, if you really want to 715 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,640 build a robust business, the models I'm looking at are 716 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,560 subscription layers. So like how do we create 717 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,520 businesses that people are happy to pay to have that content? 718 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,800 And then on the set on the second hand is or you build 719 00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:57,360 communities that you can monetize in lots of different 720 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,320 ways like you've done with so successfully with telecast. 721 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,320 When you look at your events and magazine and other things that 722 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,760 you built here, that they're the two models that I think standard 723 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,480 test of the next turn of this the next decade of this game. 724 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,560 You know, it's look at the rest is history and how brilliantly 725 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,200 they've built a paid layer for that. 726 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,000 And the rest is politics and all the rest of it. 727 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,840 Look at how many businesses are now building these multi revenue 728 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,960 stream models that give the content away from for free for 729 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,560 free. But because they have a 730 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,240 community and they stand for something and then number one in 731 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:33,680 their sector can build a whole business out around it. 732 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,600 You know, that for me is they're the two models that I think are 733 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,000 most interesting. Yeah. 734 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,120 And, and talking about video podcasts, because we've seen 735 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,400 remarkable growth in that and we've certainly seen companies 736 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,000 like Gold Hanger have, you know, huge success. 737 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,280 And we've just obviously seen a Netflix deal for Gold Hanger 738 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,480 around the 2026 World Cup, which is really, really fascinating. 739 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,960 We've seen, you know, some real success for companies like Cold 740 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,320 Glass who were doing Dish, the dish podcast, but with Waitrose, 741 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,960 which is, you know, amazingly successful as well, and lots of 742 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,840 other companies. Diary of Aceo Flight story 743 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,040 obviously had huge amounts of success. 744 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:23,560 To me that seems like an obvious move for the first move for ATV 745 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,600 production company to try and get into the digital world 746 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,200 because? It's relatively inexpensive and 747 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,160 whether it's a a two person chat show or discussion show, it's 748 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,200 it's, you know, production costs are fairly low, limited. 749 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:45,520 You can do, you know, a deal with talent which isn't, you 750 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,120 know, a percentage deal with talent which is, you know, 751 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:53,000 relatively easy to do. Surely that's the easiest step. 752 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,520 Would you say that that was the first step that a TV production 753 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,400 company might might take? It really depends, because it 754 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,680 depends what problem they're trying to solve, you know? 755 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,200 And at the end of the day, if you're in business, there's no 756 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,760 point doing things until you know why you're doing them, you 757 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,120 know? And yeah, try some stuff out. 758 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,880 By all means, if you, if you feel like you need inspiration, 759 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,240 make some things and put them in different places and see what 760 00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:15,440 happens. I think that's the most 761 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,200 important step to some extent, is to do something rather than 762 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,880 to talk about it and do nothing. However, most people that are 763 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,960 interested have already done that and most of them have been 764 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,280 underwhelmed because they've they've done it far too quickly 765 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,520 and given themselves far too small a chance of success. 766 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,400 I don't think there is an exact right move. 767 00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:37,640 If if you decide what it is you're passionate about and what 768 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,440 the business you want to build, then you've got to look at how 769 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,080 you then resource that and what type of content is going to be 770 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,320 right to promote to give yourself the best chance. 771 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,240 I think video podcasts work really well on YouTube because 772 00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,920 they they are fantastic for YouTube because you they're 773 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,440 often half an hour to an hour long. 774 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,680 YouTube now allows you to put an advert break every couple of 775 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,000 minutes into their feed. And so that means that instead 776 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,600 of five years ago when you had one advert at the beginning and 777 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,840 maybe one at the end in 1/2 hour podcast, you can maybe have 8910 778 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,840 hour breaks, right? So they're making 10 times the 779 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,040 money from you watching that. OK, so, so it's not because 780 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,480 YouTube like podcasts, it's just they're finding more ways to 781 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,280 make money. That's as simple as that. 782 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,400 So at the end of the day, podcasts are a brilliant medium. 783 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,480 I love podcasts and I'm delighted for all the companies 784 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:31,040 that have really lent in and taken advantage of that. 785 00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:34,040 But they've done it because they had stories they needed to tell 786 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,040 and that was the best way to do it for for their businesses. 787 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,800 I could say that there are other businesses out there that have 788 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,640 gone and made a hour scripted special and dropped that on 789 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,600 YouTube and had remarkable success from that. 790 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,480 So there's no perfect right way. Tik Tok's probably the easiest 791 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,560 platform to reach pure audience and to then commercialize it 792 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,560 through TikTok shop, right? So that's having a huge moment. 793 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,920 So I think Substack's another one. 794 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,880 If you want to build trust, Substack is a remarkable way to 795 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,360 do that. So, so for me, you've got the 796 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,880 toolkit. The, the question is who do you 797 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,880 want to influence, you know, and how, how are you best going to 798 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,040 do that on which platform? And and that's where I would 799 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,440 start from if it was. It's like setting up a business, 800 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,080 isn't it? It's like it's actually, rather 801 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,760 than just creating content, it's like, you know, this is a 802 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,040 content business. Yeah. 803 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,800 You know, what's the business model, what's the opportunity? 804 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,600 Yeah, absolutely. And I think we all, because we 805 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,480 are all content producers for a living, we all obsess over 806 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,160 content, but that's not how the world feels about it. 807 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,640 You know, what problem are you solving for a portion of the 808 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,960 world, you know, and how can you be the number one at doing that? 809 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,920 And and you got to start from there. 810 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,440 And then content is either a small or a large part of that, 811 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,520 you know, and the truth is better to try very cheap to try 812 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,160 now very difficult to raise money to start a content 813 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,400 business now because everybody knows you can do it for nothing 814 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,360 essentially. And so I think anybody with 815 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,120 business plans saying I'm going to start a content company, 816 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,440 probably don't waste time pitching it. 817 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,040 Just find the way to start it without requiring any money from 818 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,920 anyone. And because most of the time now 819 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,080 that's pretty much doable physically. 820 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,600 And so that barrier to entry has disappeared, which means, and if 821 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,720 you're ATV production company, you've got as much, you know, 822 00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:19,600 clout as you have if you're a college student. 823 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,920 And you just got to accept that, you know, and work with it and 824 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,200 use it to your advantage, I think. 825 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:31,000 So 2026 we talked about earlier on, you know, it really does 826 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,080 feel like a real inflection point. 827 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:37,560 I probably should have probably said that at the end of every 828 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,480 year since I meet this podcast having started it in in 829 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,320 lockdown. But what do you think you know, 830 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,840 any, anything that you're looking at in 2026 outside of 831 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,680 your own business, you know, in terms of trends, content trends 832 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:57,960 in terms of opportunities, you know, what's your sort of what 833 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,960 are your key predictions you think for 2026 in this in this 834 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,600 industry? Oh well, they're all going to be 835 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,440 wrong. So let's just start with that. 836 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,920 I think news influences are going to start to become more of 837 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,120 a thing. We saw a bit of it previously. 838 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,120 It's ended quite badly for some in that space, especially the a 839 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,960 few of the right wing kind of influencers that have tried to 840 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,640 become news influencers. But I think in the world of 841 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,960 influencing, news is a very underserved vertical. 842 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:29,480 So I think we'll see more and more of that. 843 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,600 And after our panel at the Digital Content Forum, it was 844 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,360 clear that a few of those bigger news businesses were looking at 845 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,680 how they could create a. Strategy for their. 846 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,200 Generation of talent, yeah. And so I think we'll see that. 847 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,960 I think the World Cup will be huge for digital in 2026. 848 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,680 I think the rest is football going is a is a indicator of 849 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,800 that. But I think we'll see so much 850 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,320 more content than we've ever seen before from a World Cup, 851 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,960 you know, on every level. And so I'm very excited to see 852 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,400 what innovation comes out of that. 853 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,200 And I think in other ways, things won't change very much. 854 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,360 I think we've kind of found a new social and streaming balance 855 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,120 now, you know, that's the industry we're in now, social 856 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,840 and streaming in video and and I think it's it's now a proper 857 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,680 ecosystem. I think the Netflix deal with 858 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,800 Warner Brothers is looking like an absolute car crash and I 859 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,440 think that will be difficult on many levels because they will 860 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,720 have to be rebundling across television for television to 861 00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:33,840 survive in the shape that it is in the moment. 862 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,920 So I think you will see more and more consolidation across TV, 863 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,480 possibly in the UK, definitely in the US and Canada and other 864 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,280 places. So I think there will be a lot 865 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,120 of change in television, but not a lot of changing streaming and 866 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,120 social. The other big movies in the UK 867 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,920 is Paramount winning the Champions League for 2027 and I 868 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,920 think that will shift a few things around this year for next 869 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,400 year. And I think potentially the male 870 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,440 buying the Telegraph will do the same thing. 871 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,400 I think that you'll see further media consolidation across 872 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,720 publishing in the UK as well. So consolidating at the top 873 00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:10,520 level of traditional media. But I think streaming is 1 and 874 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,680 the winners are quite happy with how they're doing and how things 875 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,640 are. I think social is very 876 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,600 established and essentially will become more and more of the 877 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,160 marketing mix, you know and and kind of Rd. value in other areas 878 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,040 of marketing. So the mainstream media will 879 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:26,680 consolidate to survive as a result. 880 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,080 Yeah. And, and being a bit more 881 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,800 specific about we've seen micro dramas, you know, really kind of 882 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,720 sweep in from China and and Asia and, and, you know, really some 883 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:42,720 of the these apps that we've seen really, really, you know, 884 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:47,040 making enormous amounts of money around the world, also in the 885 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,440 States and to a lesser extent in the UK. 886 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:57,280 How do you see vertical video moving forward from this point? 887 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,600 Because obviously at the moment it's mainly app based, but you 888 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,720 would imagine that that will probably different monetization 889 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:08,280 models will bring that onto the likes of you know, likes of 890 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,760 TikTok and the likes of Reals. I mean, you can see that they 891 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,680 won't do that. I I think it's still relatively 892 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,680 minor business model outside of China, you know, so, so I think 893 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,720 there's a move. It's essentially just another 894 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,560 way of watching a soap opera. So, so, you know, will it work 895 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,560 in sport? Will it work in comedy? 896 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,440 Will it work in other formats? I'm not sure it will actually. 897 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,920 You know, I think there's something about soap opera 898 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,160 cliffhangers that's just suits to two-minute kind of vignettes 899 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,920 that that you can come back to and it's a certain community 900 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,080 that really like them. So I think it's slight red flag, 901 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,720 if I'm honest, not red flag, red herring rather. 902 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,840 So I think it's an interesting way to get people to pay for 903 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:51,720 content, but I think it is genre specific right now and I think 904 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:55,000 it's potentially a bit limited, but I'm not a fan. 905 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,080 So therefore I've got a particular bias probably against 906 00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:59,400 it. So I'm probably missing 907 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,520 something. I remember Evan Spiegel telling 908 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,600 us in a room once that TikTok was going to be a massive thing 909 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,240 when he was running Snapchat. And I kind of thought probably 910 00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:10,760 overplaying it a bit here. Evan, you know, And he was spot 911 00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,400 on, wasn't he? So I think I think things that 912 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,360 you don't understand you shouldn't write off, but I think 913 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:22,120 vertical video is here to stay. I think it's just another 914 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,400 Snapchat event I went to. I said, why are you all in 915 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,160 vertical video? And they said, and this is right 916 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,440 at the beginning of Snapchat and they said it's because it's just 917 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,200 more natural to hold a fan, a phone upright than it is to hold 918 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,280 it on its side. And so that's why we're going 919 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,600 to, we've taken a bet on vertical video, which is a 920 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,440 differentiator for them. Back in the day, nobody was 921 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,720 doing that. I think that I still watch 922 00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:43,760 sports highlights and vertical video and you can't see the 923 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,520 ball. There's still lots of things 924 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,600 that don't work about vertical video as a kind of as a bat for 925 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,680 TikTok. I think they're still going to 926 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,600 get bigger and bigger and I think in the end, TikTok is 927 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,760 going to continue to disrupt YouTube more than anything else. 928 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,240 And YouTube is 1 television and TikTok is 1. 929 00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:05,160 Social is probably what I think we're going to start to see more 930 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,680 and more in 2026. All right. 931 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,840 Well, now it's time for Story of the Week when my guests get to 932 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,920 nominate the content industry news story that's caught their 933 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,840 eye in the past few days. Sam and you've just mentioned a 934 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,520 few, I don't know, is it one of those going to be? 935 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,480 Yeah, I mean, my story of the week is Warner Brothers 936 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:27,000 Discovery being bought by Netflix and now apparently being 937 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,720 bought by Paramount instead. So as of today, it's changing. 938 00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:31,760 Every day, right? Yeah. 939 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,320 And so Trump came out yesterday, didn't he? 940 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,760 And he said that that could be a problem, which is a which means 941 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,120 it is a problem. Well, and then when you read 942 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,720 down that story list a little bit, you realize that Paramount 943 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:47,920 is now owned by Skydarts, which is David Ellison's company. 944 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,480 And David is the son of Larry Ellison of Oracle fame, who is a 945 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,760 big pal of Donald Trump's. And so Donald Trump has decided 946 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,800 he doesn't like the Netflix deal, despite Ted Sarandos, Co 947 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,160 CEO of Netflix, going to be friendly with Trump at the White 948 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,720 House in recent times. And it's just really depressing, 949 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:11,080 although I think if Netflix don't that seal that deal, I 950 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,200 don't think it's the worst thing in the world for them. 951 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,440 I saw a brilliant article by Evan Shapiro yesterday about the 952 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,760 value of the actual value of that deal. 953 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,080 And I think it's been well overinflated. 954 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,520 And I don't see that buying those assets in the medium term 955 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,080 makes any sense for Netflix because it'd take about 40 years 956 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,840 to pay back, you know, by evidence estimates. 957 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,880 So even if you half that 20 years to pay back is a lot of 958 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,120 money and a lot of time. And so I think Netflix are 959 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,000 seeking to bundle up, but I still think they've got the 960 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,600 brand equity not to have to do that. 961 00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:48,720 You know, personally, I'm not inside their business. 962 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,520 I think Paramount need more mainstream media very quickly 963 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,040 indeed to get scale because so much of what they do is aging 964 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:57,880 out. And so I think it is a more 965 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,080 dramatic deal and requirement of them and that's why they're 966 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,840 bidding so aggressively to win it. 967 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:08,160 I think if they do win it, hopefully Netflix find another 968 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,280 way to come again. It was interesting that their 969 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,240 lawyers, Paramount lawyers actually, you know, waved a 970 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:16,200 flag, didn't they? And actually came out just 971 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,120 before the Netflix deal was announced, I think a day or two 972 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,520 before sort of crying foul a little bit in terms of that 973 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,240 deal. But it's it sounds like this is 974 00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:29,120 a tussle that's going to go on a little while. 975 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:30,280 Yeah, doesn't it? Possibly. 976 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:35,360 And you know, I think it's disappointing because it doesn't 977 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,520 feel like it's a apples and apples comparison at the moment. 978 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:44,360 And it feels must be quite worrying to work in those bigger 979 00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,680 companies and realize that the deals aren't necessarily being 980 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,480 assessed on it in a completely scientific way by the powers 981 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:56,400 that be. Well, let's move on to Hero of 982 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,360 the Week. Sam, who or what is your hero of 983 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:02,160 the week? What is? 984 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:08,040 Is there somebody out there that you want to sort of glaze, as my 985 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:09,480 daughter would say? Glaze. 986 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,760 Yeah, I love a glaze so I'm going to glaze Curly Media, a 987 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:15,840 company I'm not sure you know about. 988 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:17,920 Not many people necessarily will yet. 989 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:25,240 Run by Emma and Laura who just dropped the Spotify Unwrapped in 990 00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:29,360 the UK. So Spotify Unwrapped commissions 991 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,280 an amazing film and that's had been unbelievably successful. 992 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:38,280 That came out last week. And you'd expect that to come 993 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,240 from a top kind of advertising production company. 994 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:47,080 But no, it came from a proper original digital company who by 995 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,760 working super hard for Spotify on a number of other tasks and 996 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,760 got the opportunity to to do the big one. 997 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,960 And they've absolutely smashed it and it's relevant. 998 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,400 It's brilliant. It's all those things that you'd 999 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,360 love it to be. And it it's full of the best 1000 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,520 talent and the best creators. And it's all if you know, you 1001 00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,320 know, references and it's just a wonderful piece of work. 1002 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,400 And when you see things like that coming from companies, I 1003 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,840 mean, I've been lucky enough to work with them for the last few 1004 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,400 years and, and you just think sometimes the good guys get what 1005 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,440 they deserve, you know, it's a lovely moment. 1006 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:22,920 This week. Well, that's good to see that. 1007 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,120 Well, there we go. That's curly media getting 1008 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:30,000 glazed there. And who or what are you telling 1009 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,120 to get in the bin, Sam? FIFA. 1010 00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:33,600 Right. Yeah. 1011 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,600 I'm just, I just think we should put the whole of FIFA in the 1012 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:38,600 bin. Oh, my God. 1013 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,240 And I think we should like, then staple the bin shut. 1014 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,200 And I think we should put Sellotape around it again and 1015 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,800 again and again and again. And I think you should set fire 1016 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,360 to it. And then I should think we 1017 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,800 should offer it to Elon Musk to send to Mars and then explode. 1018 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,240 Yeah. Yeah, Oh my God, 2 1/2 hours 1019 00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:58,960 that show. But let's do enough vibes in my 1020 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,440 life that I've never gained, yeah? 1021 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,840 I'm just very glad that they brought about World Peace, 1022 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,680 because like, if they hadn't, it would have been a bit of a 1023 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:07,720 stretch, wouldn't it? You know? 1024 00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:09,000 But now they brought about World Peace. 1025 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,960 It's actually fine. I love Trump putting the medal 1026 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,440 on himself. That was a beautiful thing to 1027 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,480 see. And and the kind of banter 1028 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,480 between Rio Ferdinand and the floor was like just was not 1029 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,440 working. And it was just the biggest 1030 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,320 cringe moment of the year, I think. 1031 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,480 Yeah, well, Dubai's newest full time resident, Rio Ferdinand. 1032 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:33,880 Is that right? Apparently so. 1033 00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:38,680 OK, Well, yeah, he was a Leeds player for a short amount of 1034 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:43,040 time, but he went, he chose, he chose the wrong path after that. 1035 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,240 But there we are. Sam, thank you so much for 1036 00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:50,000 coming on the show. Brilliant to see you. 1037 00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,560 Really exciting what you're doing in the new business. 1038 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,360 So I look forward to hearing more about that over the next 1039 00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:01,000 year or so. And you know, I wish you a great 1040 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,560 Christmas and point your feet up out there at On the Farm. 1041 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,240 Yeah, Thank you, Justin. Always a pleasure to be on 1042 00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:10,640 telecast and be part of this amazing community that you've 1043 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,760 built. You know, kudos to you five 1044 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,240 years in, it's a really impressive thing that we often 1045 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,720 and everybody in the industry loves what you're doing and feel 1046 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,320 very supported by you and your team, you know, really helping 1047 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,200 us all come together in in brilliant way. 1048 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:27,760 So thank you for that. Thanks, Sam. 1049 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,840 That's brilliant. OK, well, that's about it for 1050 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,000 this week's show. Telecast was produced by Spirit 1051 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,080 Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back next week with 1052 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,640 another show. Until then, stay safe.