1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,560 I am Justine Crosby and welcome to another episode of telecast. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,740 My guest this week is Andrew Eastall, who's MD of Middlechild 3 00:00:09,740 --> 00:00:11,520 Productions. Andrew, welcome to the show. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:12,640 Thank. You very much for having me. 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,960 Great to see you. Thank you for making your way. 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,200 I think you're on the on the way down the country at the moment. 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,720 You've just been up in the North East, haven't you? 8 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:21,000 You're on your way to the South Coast. 9 00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:25,880 We have an office northern child in Newcastle and we have middle 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,600 child in Brighton, so I have quite a commute between the 11 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,440 officers who've been there this week. 12 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:33,160 Brilliant. Well, thanks for thanks for 13 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:38,760 dropping in on your journey. So we recently spoke at the 14 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,720 House Make Money and digital event and, and it was really 15 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,720 fascinating conversation which we'll touch on and maybe go a 16 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,560 little bit deeper in a couple of areas that we touch on there. 17 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,400 But first of all, just for anybody that doesn't know Middle 18 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,680 Child, just give us a bit of a background of Middle Child 19 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,080 Productions and a bit of a history and what sort of 20 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,560 business you are. So we're essentially a 21 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,440 traditional TV production company. 22 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,960 It's sort of that's our heritage set up by David Sumner about 15 23 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:11,320 years ago and I came on board not long after that. 24 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:18,600 We make factual content for all of the major linear broadcasters 25 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,240 in the country. We do a lot of returning series, 26 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,200 OP spatial documentaries for Channel 5, UKTV. 27 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,920 We do current affairs singles for the BBC. 28 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,720 We do history stuff for Channel 4. 29 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,840 So as I say, very sort of traditional TV production. 30 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:44,160 We were originally in London and then opened up in Brighton and a 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,160 few years ago in Newcastle. Right, OK. 32 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,680 And first of all, how are you finding it at the moment, the 33 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,200 market, I mean things have changed right in the in the last 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,520 two years for production businesses like yours. 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,880 So what's give us your tales from the front line a little 36 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,560 bit. I think we're OK. 37 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,639 So I think that sounds super positive. 38 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,680 You know, we, you know, we're, we're busy and that's a really 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,360 good thing. And I know how difficult it is 40 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,800 to be busy at the moment. It's definitely harder. 41 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,840 And I think not just the obvious harder to get a Commission 42 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,480 because the linear broadcasters potentially don't have the sort 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,920 of money that they once had and a commissioning lesson so on. 44 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,680 But I think harder as well because at least for the last 45 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:43,520 maybe two years now, there's changes happening everywhere 46 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:48,480 across the industry very much at the broadcasters, you know, our 47 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,920 primary customers and we don't have any control over how they 48 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:56,360 are adjusting their businesses or what they might be doing. 49 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,680 So I think for production companies really predominantly 50 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,440 still chasing the same model of, of commissioning that we've 51 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,400 always have done, it sometimes feels like we're doing that 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,280 slightly blindly. And it's always been to a degree 53 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:13,680 like that. There's lots of variables, 54 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,360 variables behind the scenes that we aren't aware of when it comes 55 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:18,960 to their commissioning decisions. 56 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,240 But now it's, it's sometimes feels like an even bigger 57 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,240 guessing game. And I feel for the broadcasters 58 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,080 and the and the commissioning editors that we work with and we 59 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,440 know enough to know that that's just as hard for them on their 60 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,120 side. And I'm sure many of them are 61 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,640 sort of unsure about what the future holds entirely. 62 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,400 And I think from a traditional linear television perspective, 63 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:51,000 we just all hope that they can re what the right word would be, 64 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,040 reposition themselves maybe within the industry to be back 65 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,960 to a consistent level of commissioning, even if it's not 66 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,400 to the same sort of volume or price point that it was. 67 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,120 Yeah. Well, I think, I think you've 68 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:09,400 very clearly articulated the the the problem that pretty much 69 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,720 every Indian certainly factual indie or vast majority of 70 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,320 factual Indies in the UK are, are failing right now. 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,600 We're obviously seeing, you know, huge drops in 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,560 commissioning and the Commission that is happening is tighter on 73 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,240 budgets as well, which is putting more and more strain on 74 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,560 on independent production companies. 75 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,480 The reason for that, obviously less viewers and those eyeballs 76 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:42,120 have shifted onto social and you know, attention onto traditional 77 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,360 models. As you know, everybody's 78 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,760 attention is shifted into and fragmented and gone into 79 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,160 different ways. We all know that. 80 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,040 We've spoken about that a lot, a lot on telecast, obviously. 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,160 But what I'm particularly interested in is your business 82 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,320 and, and how you've adapted and how how are you you were looking 83 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,600 to adapt and planning to adapt to this new digital first 84 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,560 production landscape, which I think you've done really 85 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,720 successfully. And, and it's a really 86 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,320 interesting case study. You're gardening with Alan 87 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,600 Titchmarsh channel, which is YouTube basic digital first 88 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,880 channel. Tell us about the channel first 89 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,960 of all, so. I think in digital, digital in 90 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:31,760 general for us, we have we started doing some digital 91 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,160 commissions from the broadcasters. 92 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:44,680 So Channel 4 that digital for digital and for BBC and we've 93 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,040 we've always been doing quite low cost television, I think 94 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,680 high volume amongst everything we do. 95 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,240 So it wasn't something essentially a lower sort of 96 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,160 price point that we were worried about doing. 97 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:03,800 So we know how to make stuff as streamlined as we can make it 98 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,640 from a sort of budgetary perspective. 99 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:10,960 So with that in mind, I think we thankfully feel sort of a bit 100 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,880 more primed for moving in the direction that some of the 101 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:20,840 industry seems to be. We started working with ATV exec 102 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,800 called Matt Young who came to us and he had lots of experience 103 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,200 working on gardening shows, some of which were with Alan Titch 104 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,040 Push. And at the time we were 105 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,680 discussing potentially doing some kind of digital play. 106 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:42,240 We had done some research and looked at some data via a guy 107 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,080 called Hawa who had come to us and said that if we had 108 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:51,280 unlicensed content from television, he could repackage 109 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:55,640 that up and sort of pump it out through all the social media 110 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,920 platforms. And there would be a sort of 111 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,560 steady stream potentially of some revenue coming from that 112 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,840 footage, which was otherwise just sitting around. 113 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,960 We had spoken to him about doing some original content and, and 114 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,640 he was saying obviously that that was almost certainly 115 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,040 somewhere that would be a sort of higher earner, if you like, a 116 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,160 chance of actually making some better revenue via those 117 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,360 platforms rather than rehashed older content. 118 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,960 So when Matt came in, we started talking to him about Alan and 119 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,240 the potential of us putting together something with him. 120 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,440 The other thing we had done in the background before that was 121 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,440 look at genres within mainly the YouTube space. 122 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,520 I think that potentially would do well not just with an 123 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,240 audience, but with brands because we recognized early on, 124 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,600 still knowing very little, but knowing enough to know that the 125 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,280 revenue that we would generate from a YouTube channel via the 126 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:02,240 YouTube ads wasn't going to sustain something like gardening 127 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:03,440 with that. And Teach Marsh, for example, 128 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,800 wasn't going to sustain something like we might make as 129 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:12,560 ATV producer. Gardening had come up as one of 130 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,040 those areas that is not only a a popular area of content. 131 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,000 Obviously there isn't loads of really high profile people doing 132 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,280 that in the online space. It's not like gaming or or 133 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:30,040 beauty, for example, and also that there are clearly quite big 134 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,240 gardening brands and potentially they didn't have loads of place, 135 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,960 places other places to to spend their money. 136 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,640 So it ticked a lot of boxes. It's a. 137 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,280 Massive niche, isn't it? I mean, the fact is a lot of us 138 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,840 have got gardens, yeah. And there are a few areas like 139 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,800 that, right? I always for some reason, go to 140 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,640 fishing as one of those. It's one of those sort of 141 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,920 surprising areas that actually there's lots of an awful lot of 142 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,560 people involved in that and and passionate about that. 143 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,640 So there's a big market as a community that you could tap 144 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,320 into. But there will also be brands 145 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,720 commercially who don't have loads of places to spend their 146 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,880 money at the moment. So they're almost not part of 147 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,480 that thinner spread of advertising spend, which is part 148 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,360 of the reason that the linear broadcasters are struggling a 149 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:23,240 little bit more. So obviously we then had to be 150 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,560 with, with Matt's help, who's been amazing, speak with Alan 151 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,560 and Alan's agent and do the the usual stuff with that. 152 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,320 I say the usual stuff because actually that is still our bread 153 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,760 and butter. Speaking to to talent and doing 154 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,480 deals with those people and understanding the standards that 155 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:47,880 they would expect and, and the quality of the output that they 156 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,800 would expect is, is really key to, to sort of us being able to 157 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,880 do anything for television in the linear sense or, or for the 158 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,280 digital channel. And Alan and his agent were 159 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,520 excited about the possibility of doing it. 160 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,160 We treated it and still do very much like a traditional 161 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:09,640 television broadcast arrangement. 162 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,480 And we film it in much a similar way. 163 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,480 And that's not necessarily because we have to and, and, and 164 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,280 in this world, things are definitely more streamlined, but 165 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:26,920 our experience knows that talent, Alan is used to those 166 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,480 sorts of things. You're used to it being done 167 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,560 properly essentially. And that's a skill that we have 168 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,120 that potentially not everyone would. 169 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:40,200 So we, we are in many ways looking at the things that we 170 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,960 can do and taking advantage of that, if that makes sense 171 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:43,720 because. Absolutely. 172 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:49,920 I mean, it's almost, it's almost like a, I'd say a perfect recipe 173 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,640 in terms of you have talent who's really, really well known 174 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,960 with an agent who's with an outlook and an agent who's who 175 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,800 are really interested in experimenting with new 176 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,480 opportunities. You have really experienced 177 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,920 production company making longer form content. 178 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:15,480 You also have a huge growth in older viewers on YouTube who are 179 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,360 used to watching longer form content. 180 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,160 And naturally and obviously that explosion of older viewers, not 181 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,480 only older viewers, but more and more viewers watching on their 182 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,680 connected TV's at home, wanting a traditional broadcast 183 00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:32,960 experience with a well known personality and trusted 184 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,280 personality and, and you know, in an area that's not really 185 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,080 being well served. So those are all the key 186 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,080 ingredients for for success really. 187 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,480 And I think it's not you then and us at the time make it sound 188 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,880 really easy. You're absolutely right. 189 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,240 They they tick all the boxes and we kind of assumed they would. 190 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:55,400 But I think all of those variables. 191 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:56,400 And there's. How do you fund it? 192 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,080 Yeah, there's. There's how do you fund it? 193 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,000 But also I think if you think about other ideas like that you, 194 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,640 you, you do run aground at some point quite quickly. 195 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,760 It's quite interesting that not quite all those variables aren't 196 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,120 quite all there to make something work. 197 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:17,160 And I'd add into that things like going to a really high 198 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,400 profile talent. Now, let's say in, in any kind 199 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,160 of subject area or, or a presenter, just a general 200 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,720 presenter, and they quite possibly have a really strong 201 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,640 presence online already. So they, they, they have all of 202 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,040 their socials sort of tied up and they, they do maybe do a bit 203 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,400 of YouTube and they certainly will be doing Instagram and and 204 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,280 TikTok. They may well have commercial 205 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,120 deals with people already with brands that limit them from 206 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,160 doing other things. So you that we have to play that 207 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,880 in as a factor because for us as a business, we don't want to be 208 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,560 a gun for hire just being in this case, for example, the 209 00:12:56,560 --> 00:12:59,040 production company behind Alan's YouTube channel. 210 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,960 We want to create a brand that has a community that comes 211 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:08,120 around it and as that grows, have revenue sources that that 212 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,040 change and expand all the time that will pay back the the 213 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,480 money. Obviously we've invested into 214 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:20,280 into producing the channel, but also eventually create a profit 215 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,440 for a business. And if you don't have that, that 216 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,440 room to do that because other things are tied up, you know, 217 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,320 the talent already does a podcast or the talent's already 218 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,600 done a million books or they've already got their own 219 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,960 merchandise line, whatever it might be, then that becomes 220 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,760 harder. So ticking all those boxes is, 221 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:43,600 is definitely tricky, but I think we definitely bring to the 222 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,120 table when I, when I say we, I don't mean just middle child, I 223 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,360 mean experienced TV producers. I think we bring something to 224 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:56,200 the table which allows us to carve out potentially our own 225 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,320 space in this digital world that the creators that have been 226 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:05,480 doing this for a long, long time aren't necessarily able to do 227 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:08,800 quite as well. And that's really positive 228 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,880 because that's coming to something that it feels like 229 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,600 we've missed the boat on. But actually there's probably a 230 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,160 whole load of things that if we think carefully about where our 231 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,520 skill sets are, only we could do properly. 232 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,000 Again, when I say we, the producers, the companies, the 233 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,720 freelancers that are working in the television industry at the 234 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,480 moment, there's an awful lot we can do that isn't being done 235 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,560 yet, I think in those spaces. Yeah. 236 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,240 And I think that's the key. I think it's about your strength 237 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,800 and you, your superpowers, if you like, as a, as a business 238 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,120 and you know, it's easy, I think to look at digital 1st and, and 239 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:51,480 be a bit exasperated and feel a little bit, you know, hopeless 240 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,400 and helpless, you know, thinking, oh, we've missed the 241 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,080 boat. We don't understand all that, 242 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,040 You know, what all the creators are doing, we can't possibly 243 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,840 compete with. It's too late. 244 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,280 But actually, you know, that's why I think it's such a great 245 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,640 case study is the fact that you're playing to, you know, 246 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,280 you've got, you've identified as sort of almost like a like a 247 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,160 Goldilocks project in terms of everything's right. 248 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,360 And also your skill sets are perfectly in order for you to 249 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,960 deliver on that. Well, let's have a look at a 250 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,160 clip from Gardening with Alan Titchmarsh. 251 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,760 Now, you may end up looking like a stormtrooper from Star Wars, 252 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,840 but it's all in a good cause. Check when you're buying one of 253 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,520 these hedge trimmers that you can cope with the weight. 254 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,280 The lighter it is, the longer you will be able to use it. 255 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,000 You might think, oh that's OK. Believe me, after 1520 minutes 256 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,120 of using this, your arms will ache. 257 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,520 This is choicier tornata, the Mexican orange blossom. 258 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,800 Not a shrub to prune in winter because it's borderline tender, 259 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,520 but I want to show you the technique I use. 260 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,200 I've got it either side of the drive here and I've clipped it 261 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,400 into this rolling sea. So the important thing to do is 262 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,560 to watch the technique and to be smooth and sweeping in your 263 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,960 movements. But to do it in summer, Visor 264 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,880 down, machine on. Here we go. 265 00:16:24,460 --> 00:16:30,540 So, So what was the the general thinking about moving into the 266 00:16:30,540 --> 00:16:32,660 space as well as a business? I mean, you talked a bit 267 00:16:32,660 --> 00:16:35,140 earlier, you know, we talked about it's difficult times. 268 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,120 Is it really just looking forward as a, as a future 269 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,080 proofing exercise and A and a, you know, a key strategic move 270 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,280 for you as a business? I think I don't. 271 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,200 I don't even 100% know if we still know would would be the, 272 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,920 the, the not the best answer to that, but an answer. 273 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,360 We love making television and we have a like all production 274 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,960 companies our size have a structure and a setup and 275 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,280 overheads essentially that are built to be fuelled by the 276 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,680 revenue that we might generate each year from traditional 277 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:20,720 linear television commissions. And it's very hard to then go, 278 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,560 well, actually let's just, you know, move everything over to 279 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,319 this digital scenario, a completely different model 280 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,600 because that model is completely different. 281 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,600 So, so the revenue stream is not the same. 282 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,360 It doesn't come at the same time, the money doesn't come in 283 00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:41,560 at the same time. There's longer strategic plays 284 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,600 in digital, which may well pay off better than potentially a 285 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,400 television Commission at some point. 286 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:53,840 But our companies are set up to pay people's wages and, and, and 287 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,880 premises and everything based on the revenue that we get from 288 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,720 television. So I think we are, we still see 289 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,240 linear television as as a, as a sort of main source of income. 290 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,080 But I think especially when things seem like they're getting 291 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:14,680 harder or we're not busy, we're entrepreneurs and we're creative 292 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,240 people and, and much like the rest of the production 293 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,200 community. And so you are always looking 294 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,640 for where you can essentially make some more money to cover 295 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,480 your costs and to make sure everyone's getting paid 296 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,200 properly. So it's natural to go there 297 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,840 could be an opportunity here that our skills could be applied 298 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,440 to that actually can help us generate some of that revenue. 299 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:42,320 At the same time, it's at least positioning us in on that path. 300 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,600 Because if think none of us know yet quite how things are going 301 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,920 to readjust at the broadcasters, you know, within the community 302 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,320 in general. But if it does go down that road 303 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,760 and some form like almost completely, then at least we're 304 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,840 we're doing that. I think that to be honest, it's 305 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,920 probably that bit more than anything else there was the 306 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,560 creativity and just finding an opportunity, but also just 307 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,240 positioning ourselves to at least be trying that and and 308 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,760 seeing how that worked out for us. 309 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,720 But also more broadly, if that is the direction that things go 310 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:18,840 in. And I think at the moment it 311 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,880 does seem to be that that is the way even though you know, we're 312 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,240 still set up to operate like ATV production company and and 313 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,160 that's what we do. And just on that front, I think 314 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,640 there are some TV production companies who will really be 315 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,920 suffering at the moment because they may be most directly 316 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,000 affected by the things that aren't really being 317 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,400 commissioned. But then there are there is 318 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,000 still premium television being commissioned. 319 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,440 There seems to still be money for that, granted, largely and 320 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,120 sort of entertainment at the moment. 321 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,640 But I think at some point, you know, this is this, this is the 322 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,240 nature of the industry. It might be that they go 323 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,000 actually we're spending a lot of money on entertainment and, and 324 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,680 it's a pun and they don't all work. 325 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,040 What has always worked is documentary and observational 326 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,080 documentary and real people doing real stuff. 327 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:10,120 And you know, maybe that swings back and some of that premium 328 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,760 money spent on the things that we do already. 329 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,920 We also have done a lot of low cost, high volume as I, as I 330 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,360 imagined, to be honest, most of the production, the majority of 331 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,760 the production community out there in terms of companies is 332 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,200 not making the premium stuff. They're making the lower cost 333 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,680 stuff. And I do think that certainly 334 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,120 for the time being, linear broadcasters still need that to 335 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,840 fill their schedules. So it could be a time for all of 336 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,840 us at this sort of level to capitalize on that. 337 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,080 So I think there's some positivity in it, but at the 338 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,320 same time, we don't know where that's going to end up. 339 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,800 So we should have an eye on where else this could move 340 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,320 towards and, and that's what we're doing. 341 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,160 And I think we've had a really good experience with, with the 342 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,040 Alan channel and it's definitely going to, we're going to do more 343 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,360 because we can see the potential in it. 344 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,280 It's just getting that balance. And I think I speak for, you 345 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,840 know, all the production companies, it's like, Oh my God, 346 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,520 well, how much do we, how much time do we spend trying to chase 347 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,000 that? And do we have enough time to 348 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,920 survive whilst we wait for that to pay off? 349 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,680 And how much time do we spend on and developing TV ideas? 350 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,520 It's a real, you know, it's a balance. 351 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,720 Yeah, I mean there's, there's so many, so many points there that 352 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,200 you make that, you know, that are really interesting, 353 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,360 fascinating pressing. And I mean, 111 point is 354 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,320 obviously you've seen how the neighborhood is performed. 355 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,880 And and so that's, you know, perhaps a pointer in terms of 356 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,240 the, I'd say some of those higher budget decisions that 357 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,680 have been made by broadcasters and, and how they're developing. 358 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:46,680 It's hard. To know, isn't it? 359 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,600 Because what we do get told a lot, and understandably is that 360 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,160 things aren't really commissioned for the overnights 361 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,360 anymore, for the overnight numbers just don't seem to 362 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,320 matter as much anymore. And that makes sense. 363 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,600 And we don't know how well that might do on ITVX, for example. 364 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,240 And they're smart people behind them. 365 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,200 They, they, they may see the overnights as disappointing, but 366 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,120 they may have a, quite a good business strategy for how 367 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,200 ultimately that content pays off in the long run digitally. 368 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,840 It's, it's hard to know, but I I also think that if you're 369 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,600 getting good overnights, then you are attracting more 370 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,120 expensive advertising on your channel at that point. 371 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,800 So if you're doing over a million somehow on Channel 4, 372 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,160 Channel 5, for example, that's a valuable piece of factual 373 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,760 content. And if that factual content is 374 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,200 is of stock and it does seem from our perspective, you know, 375 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,520 we are still thankfully getting commissioned for the series that 376 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,400 we make in that space. They do a really solid job. 377 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,760 And if they take lots of punts and they don't pay off with the 378 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:01,280 bigger price stuff, you'd hope that there's also some more 379 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:07,920 cautionary but safer bets on that sort of factual OPS doc 380 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,880 type content that will also help fuel a lot of the smaller 381 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,680 production companies out there. And maybe it settles a bit more 382 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,440 into that. It's just hard to know. 383 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,520 Yeah, I mean one of the things just I mean I I don't watch 384 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:27,000 linear TV anymore, but I haven't to go to football game away the 385 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,840 other the other week and sort of sat down, laid on the hotel bed, 386 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,360 turned on the hotel TV and oh, you know, it almost felt a bit 387 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:38,960 of a novelty turning on a telly and leaping down rather than 388 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,480 going straight to fame phone. And I just looked at the EPG and 389 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,400 it was really interesting to see on Channel 4 and Channel 5 the 390 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,040 two digital first shows playing out at the same time. 391 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,120 There was Piers Morgan Uncensored and TFI Friday, both 392 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,080 of which are YouTube first shows. 393 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:04,760 And that certainly to me feels like, you know, the model of the 394 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:12,680 future in terms of TV just being one part of the production, the 395 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,600 universe, the IP universe that a producer needs to consider it's. 396 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,440 It's part of the ecology, I think. 397 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,840 And, and, and it already is, as you just said. 398 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,400 And I think you're right. I think there'll be more of that 399 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,240 and hopefully it's just a mix of all of it. 400 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,640 You know, will linear broadcasters end up just 401 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,240 acquiring content from digital spaces or or archive? 402 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,440 Maybe. But will there actually just be 403 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,120 a really long period where they are commissioning original 404 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,680 content? But they also do require more 405 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,560 content to come from those sources, in which case as 406 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,800 producers kind of where we're positioning ourselves at the 407 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,080 moment, you should be doing both, right? 408 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:57,160 Because you can be the seller and you can be the company 409 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,400 pitching an idea for the broadcaster to be commissioning 410 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,040 from you in the traditional way. And if we're able to generate 411 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,720 our own content and we have a brand that has various sources 412 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,320 of revenue and a really long shelf life, potentially that's a 413 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,360 nice position to be in. If you're selling some of that 414 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:21,000 content back to a broadcaster and not just in the UK, you 415 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,320 know, there's plenty of other territories it can be repackaged 416 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,480 for. And it's something that we're, 417 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,000 we're now in a conversation that's really far down the line 418 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:35,320 with selling a series using essentially the content we 419 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:40,360 filmed on the Alan Titchmarsh channel back to a broadcaster 420 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,920 with a bit of new filming and obviously some nice voice over. 421 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,760 And, and, and we'll re edit those shows down to suit the, 422 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,560 the channel and, and, and the idea for this series. 423 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,760 But you know, we're doing we, we are, that's another revenue 424 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,120 source for us, not one that we're reliant upon. 425 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,680 And we're providing a channel with content that's much more 426 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,240 affordable for them. It it makes an awful lot of 427 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,760 sense. Makes an awful lot, so I can see 428 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,200 you're then controlling your own IP and your own distribution, 429 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,080 which is which is think is really exciting. 430 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,160 It is liberating to be honest, because and I didn't realize 431 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,160 quite how much until you start thinking about it properly and 432 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,800 all the things you could do, many of which are probably crazy 433 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,680 ideas and when we probably won't do or they'll fail. 434 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:37,640 But even with just one set of content or one brand, in my mind 435 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,600 we could be repackaging something for one of the British 436 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,160 broadcasters and calling it whatever we're calling it, and 437 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,320 repackaging almost the same content with slightly different 438 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,240 edits and everything as a different series for a 439 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,400 broadcaster abroad who want slightly different things. 440 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,080 There's not one show we've already made and then we're just 441 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,640 trying to show we're trying to sell it. 442 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,800 There's all sorts of things you could do as simple as well, we 443 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,160 could sell hours of the show to this place and this place want 444 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,480 half an hour and this place want the title to be more this and 445 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,160 they want the footage to be more based in that part of where you 446 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,800 are rather than the other. But why not? 447 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,200 And I think there will become, I think hopefully, I think 448 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,160 there'll be a common a point where that kind of content being 449 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,920 acquired by the broadcasters will mean that the broadcasters 450 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:34,720 are less concerned about whether some of it in another form has 451 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,360 already appeared somewhere else or whether they can't have the 452 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:39,920 digital rights or whatever it might be. 453 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,560 I just think we're in a world where there's a necessity for 454 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:49,800 content on well established broadcast platforms, but there 455 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,400 isn't necessarily the means to acquire that content in the same 456 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:55,880 traditional way they they always have to. 457 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,200 And so you, you have to find it somewhere else. 458 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:04,400 And again, to go back to our as in traditional linear TV 459 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,440 producers position in that, well, that's something that they 460 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,480 were the broadcast platform is only likely to buy from those 461 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,920 people. So if we're producing that 462 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,760 online, let's say we're making it digital first, we know how to 463 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,960 also film that and prepare that ready for a potential broadcast 464 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,880 sale, so. You know when you're producing 465 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,240 it, you're producing it with TV in mind, but it's actually 466 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,600 YouTube first. But you're capturing everything 467 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,720 you need for TV as. Well, you could be a YouTube 468 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,800 creator with a fantastic channel that's massive and great content 469 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,520 that a broadcaster wanted. But the reality is the things 470 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,560 probably weren't in place to enable the broadcaster to take 471 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,200 it, which could be everything from down to what was filmed at 472 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,080 the time or what could be filmed add to it by that creator. 473 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,480 But also the legal compliance around it, the duty of care 474 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,280 things around it. All of that stuff is what we do 475 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,400 every day. And that doesn't mean we can go 476 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,640 online and create the same really popular channel that 477 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,000 someone's making from their bedroom, but it does mean we can 478 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,200 go into the digital space and make content that maybe hasn't 479 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080 really been able to have been made before now. 480 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,320 Because that professional approach to it, behind the 481 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,400 scenes, it just hasn't really been available. 482 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,560 Yeah. And what's really interesting is 483 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,360 talking about international as well. 484 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,760 I mean obviously the YouTube shows up there. 485 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,080 Does does does Sam Titchmatch have a much of A following 486 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,360 internationally in in particular? 487 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:48,120 Yeah, I mean, so we're again you think about the subject as well. 488 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,640 So if you're, if you're looking at what subject we should work 489 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,880 within, if we're for a digital brand, it's a good idea for it 490 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,040 to travel because we as a company have always made quite 491 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,840 British centric documentary. And actually some of that does 492 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,440 sell really well around the world, but other times it's just 493 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,440 feels a bit too much of A of a British subject matter. 494 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,240 So gardening is obviously really good to give you that sort of 495 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,000 scope. And yeah, Alan has a name around 496 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,920 the world. So we're talking to distributors 497 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,320 now about distributing the program that we're making for 498 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,440 the broadcaster who will then sell that onto all of these sort 499 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,920 of things. They start to build up. 500 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,120 And I don't want to sit here and and sort of mislead the 501 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,560 production community and be like, you know, we're when we're 502 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,000 rolling in money because of this, because it isn't, it's not 503 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,040 the same numbers. I mean, everyone will know that 504 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,400 anything that's being acquired, for example, is, is, is not paid 505 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,200 for anywhere near the the number that you might get for a 506 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,920 Commission. But if you are covering your 507 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,040 costs. By having a brand. 508 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,040 Exactly. Yeah, then that, that is all 509 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,120 pure profit essentially. Essentially, yeah. 510 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,360 And you've got to look at how you then, you know, the plans to 511 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,760 grow that Channel and to attract more revenue streams cost more 512 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,480 money. But but if there's if there 513 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,960 there is a rolling system where you know, you can end up 514 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,160 generating enough money to do the next thing you want to do 515 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,440 and so on and so on and so on. And eventually the in the 516 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,360 background, almost the brand has grown to a point where it's more 517 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,560 valuable in terms of how much a brand might pay to be on it. 518 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,400 It's more valuable in terms of the size of the community that 519 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,960 are now aware of the brand and buying into the brand. 520 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,880 And then, you know, much as yourself has has done, you're 521 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,360 then into sort of live events and you're into all sorts of 522 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,640 other things. And there's no one way of. 523 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,520 Doing there's, there's, there's it's, it's absolutely, it's, 524 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,720 again, I've mentioned this a few times on recent shows, but the 525 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,480 content octopus, the IP in the middle and the, and the eight 526 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,600 legs of different ways of monetization, which is, which is 527 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,680 really, really, you know, key component really. 528 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,480 And that's why I thought it'd be really interesting to chat to 529 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,000 you about this because I think it's such a great case study and 530 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,600 so relevant to, I think a lot of producers out there who, you 531 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,640 know, have got those talent relationships, who've got great 532 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,760 ideas. What I think that stands out 533 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,800 about, about gardening with Alan Titchmash, though, and the 534 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:33,000 YouTube play is you've really leveraged the, the way that 535 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,200 Youtubers be is used as a search engine rather than purely being 536 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,080 a, you know, Internet TV, if you like, Because if I'm going to 537 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,480 work out, you know, how to, how to fill the patches on my lawn. 538 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,680 I think many, many people who are in DIY or gardening or 539 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,360 anything to do with home improvement, you're straight 540 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,160 onto YouTube and, and there you are. 541 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,560 So that so that, you know, it's a really, really great solution 542 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,240 to people's problems. And it was one of the things 543 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,520 that we looked at when we first looked into whether this was the 544 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,360 right subject matter. It comes into the educational 545 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,800 category on YouTube, which is a good place to be because 546 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,400 essentially you you're in a sort of slightly high tier of 547 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,680 advertising, but it's also a very popular place to be. 548 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,600 And as you rightly say, I think for a long time, all generations 549 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,680 have been typing into YouTube. How do I do this or what should 550 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,120 I do with this myself, myself included, if I'm being honest. 551 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,760 I'm, you know, I'm pushing 50, so I don't want to sort of try 552 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,800 to pretend I'm, I'm a young person. 553 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,280 But I would say that my first, my heavier usage of YouTube did 554 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,640 used to be that it did used to be. 555 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,560 It's an encyclopedia for things I just don't know how to do. 556 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,720 It's the world's second biggest search engine. 557 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,440 And and this is something I'm definitely not an expert in, but 558 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,720 I was thinking about the other day and and AI coming in. 559 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:12,520 I don't think, although lots of people are now asking chat GTP 560 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:18,080 how to do blah, blah, blah, like video, which at the moment chat 561 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,679 GDP isn't sort of pumping out as far as I know. 562 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,679 I think it's, it will be more looking at YouTube to find the 563 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,600 answers itself. You there's there's it feels 564 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,560 like there's a sustainability of video content for those that 565 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,199 that world. And that is definitely, I think 566 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,360 what's a driver for the older generation onto things like 567 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,239 YouTube. And we I'd need to look at the 568 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,159 data in detail to sort of understand the age demographic 569 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,159 of who's looking at the annotations gardening channel. 570 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,600 But it's definitely in the the older generation. 571 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,680 And I think that that also dictates a little bit of what 572 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,440 you do content wise. One thing we're saying to to our 573 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,280 guys internally in in development. 574 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,600 And again, I say all this thing like it's some like it's some 575 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,400 new thing that we've worked out. And you know, it's not lost on 576 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,200 me that there's been people doing this for a long time and 577 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,000 worked this out a long time ago. But we're talking to them when 578 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,200 it comes to digital conversations that they need to 579 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,840 come up with a business model first and the, and the content 580 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,720 later. Because we can all have amazing 581 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,600 ideas for something we'd like to make as a, as a show or, or a 582 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:34,400 film, but it's no point just us making a fantastic documentary 583 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,320 and just checking on YouTube and hoping for the best. 584 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,960 The, the, you know, Alan Titchmarsh gardening, the older 585 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,280 demographic using YouTube, all of these things are things that 586 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,080 we've considered 1st and then the content kind of comes 587 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,880 afterwards. But when you're thinking about 588 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,200 content, our ethos has been similar to what we were just 589 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,680 discussing. What's the things that the 590 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,040 audience needs to know? You know, that essential the 591 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,440 essential tips and tricks that this is the one stop shop to go 592 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:10,000 and get them from. We we could have added in, you 593 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,320 know, Alan talking about his career, which would be 594 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,680 fascinating, But I don't think in that medium that's 595 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,200 necessarily the right place to do it because you don't just 596 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,720 want Alan's fans watching. You want anyone that's got a 597 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:25,680 question about gardening to end up there anywhere in the world, 598 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,760 obviously. And I think videos like 4 599 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,960 essential things You need to do in April in your Garden is a 600 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,800 fantastic kind of title for a video because it gives that 601 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,920 sense to the person scrolling through YouTube that they have 602 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,920 to watch it, even if they didn't want to. 603 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,800 If I don't watch it, you know, what have I not done in my 604 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,600 garden in April? And the whole thing's going to 605 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,840 die, you know? So those sort of a sense of in 606 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,760 that space, those, those kind of, I think it is common sense 607 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,520 is my point, I think. And again, there's, there is an 608 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,440 art to it all and there's some people that are brilliant at 609 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,160 doing the thumbnails and the titles and so on. 610 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,000 And it makes a lot of sense. And, and it's, you know, trying 611 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,120 to work out the algorithm, obviously. 612 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,160 But I do think, again, as TV producers, we're selling stuff a 613 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,440 lot. You know, we're, we're selling 614 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,520 our shows, We're, we're trying to get people to watch them. 615 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,240 We're we're trying to tell really gripping stories and it's 616 00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,040 just there's a continuation of that. 617 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,760 It's common sense for those that work in that world, I think. 618 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,840 Yeah. Well, but what I really like 619 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,600 about it is the way that you've talked about approaching this is 620 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,840 it's almost as a, as a new business has been an 621 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,440 entrepreneur approaching launching a channel as its own 622 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,040 business as opposed to just making a great show because 623 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,360 people, you think people are going to, you know, want to 624 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,560 watch it, which is definitely the smart way to approach it. 625 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,320 So let's let's just talk about the the success of the channel 626 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,680 then it's about half a million views a a month or something 627 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:00,800 like that at the moment, I think. 628 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,360 Yeah. Although when I checked this 629 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,640 morning, I think it was it, it'd gone up from that as well. 630 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,520 And it's got over 150,000 subscribers now and in a 631 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,080 relatively quick time, I think. So we've been told again, you 632 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,640 know, sort of news, all of this stuff you're learning as you go. 633 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,760 And it's kind of great because again, 50 years old and been in 634 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,040 the industry now for, for what seems like quite a long time, 635 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:30,240 It's quite nice to suddenly have a new sort of area to Start 636 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:35,400 learning about. So yeah, it it, it's interesting 637 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,320 when you sort of monitor like visit video views and it's easy 638 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,560 to get despondent. And we didn't know we do. 639 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,760 So no, why is that one not done really well and, and well, oh, 640 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,360 it's, you know, it's all going backwards and it's never going 641 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,160 backwards. But it's really hard to predict 642 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,360 or even understand afterwards, to be honest, why one video 643 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,840 would do well and and the other the other wouldn't. 644 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,240 The data is amazing to have it and it's something that is 645 00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:01,600 another fantastic advantage of of that space. 646 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,800 We don't have anywhere near that level of data for traditional 647 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,840 television programs. So to have that data is really 648 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,200 important to lead you on to, to slightly twist your titles or 649 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,120 what kind of content you're going to have next or what the 650 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,040 thumbnails going to be. But it's also madly infuriating 651 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,120 because. Your, your content, what I think 652 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,720 we've, I've mentioned this before too, but your content is 653 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:28,480 really interesting because as it's that helpful content and 654 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,480 it's seasonal. Gardening is seasonal, 655 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,920 obviously. So you're like, you know, 656 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,080 everybody comes out of winter in the UK and goes, oh, right, I'm 657 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,600 going to do my first trip to the garden centre. 658 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,600 I've got to do something about this lawn. 659 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,880 This looks really, really, you know, really bad and obviously, 660 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,760 and that's the when you're in the process of sort of searching 661 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,840 and thinking about it. So therefore spring is a very, 662 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,920 really good, you know, time for people searching and, and, and 663 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,000 viewing. But obviously spring happens at 664 00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,520 a different time around the year. 665 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,160 So you've got Australia having spring at a different, you know, 666 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:08,080 so it's, it's a really clever sort of rolling, you know, 667 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,760 searching for content or, or or library that you're creating for 668 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,640 people, which is, which is really smart. 669 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,840 Lucky for us, spring happens every year, you know, So it's 670 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,640 it, it's, it's got an eternity to it in, in that respect. 671 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:26,360 So again, I think it was strategic and we managed to tick 672 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,040 all the boxes somehow and it's doing well and it's all kind of 673 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,040 seems to have come together as we thought it might. 674 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,800 But part of me sort of thinks I'm not sure it's that easy to 675 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:41,080 repeat that, you know, Alan, you know, is an amazing talent to 676 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,920 have in that space. So if we think about other sort 677 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,480 of subject matters that aren't gardening and then you think 678 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,320 about who's the top person in that, you know, they're they're 679 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,240 probably not gettable. You know, it's it's quite unique 680 00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:01,960 for us to have a subject area with probably the leading sort 681 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,080 of high profile person in the country in that space on our 682 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:08,600 channel. I think that makes a massive 683 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:14,160 difference obviously. But then I think the other you 684 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,320 can look at the way we've been looking at it is that all of 685 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,520 these channels, all the different variables are at sort 686 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,400 of different levels of positive and negative. 687 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:25,360 And you kind of where one thing feels weaker, something else 688 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,360 gets stronger and it seems to happen all the time. 689 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:35,000 So just as an example, if we found a subject area that we 690 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,200 knew was under catered for, but we also knew there's big brands 691 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,840 available to it, that potentially would come in and, 692 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,520 and, and support the funding of it. 693 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,920 But the person that was the leading person in that field 694 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,440 didn't have a high profile. What we would find is that some 695 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,040 of the other aspects of that are then made easier. 696 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,440 So if that person didn't have such a high profile, they're 697 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,560 probably not as busy as say Alan would be. 698 00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:06,160 And therefore you can actually feel more content quicker 699 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,760 potentially. And when you start sort of when 700 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,880 one of those things goes down, another one often goes up. 701 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,680 It also depends which way round you're doing it, which can get 702 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,840 confusing now. But with brands, what we've been 703 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,440 doing is approaching them and saying, you know, we, we have 704 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,640 this, this channel, this person is fronting it, this is the 705 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,440 content. And they've been really keen to 706 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,800 get involved really quickly if they're not keen to get involved 707 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,200 very quickly. And we need to see some growth 708 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,080 in the channel first. And we need to look at other 709 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,160 revenue sources. But often where brands aren't 710 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,040 available and you've not therefore got sort of product 711 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,360 placement or or sponsorship, what we're starting to see just 712 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,120 through conversations is it makes some of the other revenue 713 00:42:54,120 --> 00:43:00,560 sources more interested. So whereas we can often look at 714 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,480 models where we're selling content, repackaging it back to 715 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,920 television, conversations we're having now about other ideas are 716 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,520 well, the first thing we do is get a pre sale for this content 717 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,680 from television. And we then know that we're 718 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,360 getting we saying we can make a 12 part series for you with our 719 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,760 footage. It's not talent LED, it's just 720 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:28,120 good quality factual television. We can deliver it to you in six 721 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,800 months. They say, yeah, OK, we'll pay X 722 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,200 for that. We then start making the content 723 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,360 and and creating a brand online that that will still be there. 724 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,440 And we know that that money is either partly paid or coming to 725 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,920 us. And let's say we do that for a 726 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,840 year. Our channel has grown thanks to 727 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,960 the pre sales that we had for the broadcaster who was willing 728 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,440 to take the show. And then there's enough of a 729 00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:00,320 community to bring brands in. And so brands come in later then 730 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,080 and then they become maybe the primary source. 731 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,160 But we were able to get the channel off the ground because 732 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,040 the revenue was coming from the TV angle. 733 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,320 So it all sort of flips around and you can kind of move it 734 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,920 around and it gets complicated. And I'm, I'm saying this 735 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,000 slightly speculatively because these are definitely 736 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,360 conversations that we're having and it seems absolutely like 737 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,160 things will pan out like that, but I don't think you also ever 738 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,000 really fully know. Well, it's such it's so you, 739 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,480 it's so you know, it's these opportunities are are new and 740 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,840 you know, the, you know, everyone's sort of building the 741 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,160 plane whilst they're flying. Yeah, I. 742 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,160 Would say though, that it feels like at the moment, as you start 743 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,240 to think that way or you start to have conversations or even 744 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:51,200 start to make content, so far more opportunities are opening 745 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,200 up than closing off. There's definitely things that 746 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,640 we've not thought was even an option until we started 747 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,640 discussing it with various entities. 748 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,880 And now, you know, I'm having meetings with people 749 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,680 representing brands who are interested in what we're doing 750 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,480 and, and how they could get involved. 751 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,240 And whether that means we end up doing some branded content. 752 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,000 Again, been around for a long time. 753 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,800 The sort of thing that that that spirit will do a lot of good 754 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,880 stuff on or it means that we know that there are brands 755 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,400 around that would support, you know, very much our own channel. 756 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,160 And then we have that longevity because it's, it's, it's our 757 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,200 brand. We're not just kind of being 758 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,200 commissioned to make six months worth of videos for a brand, but 759 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,680 we still retain. So we haven't something that we 760 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,200 can retain that kind of IPO for, for a lifetime and go off in 761 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,520 whichever direction we want. So final question, Andrew is 762 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:54,600 looking ahead to the future now you've you've you've launched 763 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:59,080 your digital division middle child, which is wild child. 764 00:45:59,080 --> 00:45:59,760 Right. Wild child. 765 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,440 Yeah, which it really is because it needs to be treated like a 766 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,360 separate business because it does. 767 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,680 It can't just plug into the same sort of structure and you know, 768 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,520 rates and roles that we have at the moment. 769 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:20,160 So let's say three years in the future, Middle Child is 770 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,360 hopefully still working with linear production as well. 771 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,840 Would you estimate that Wildchild will be a bigger part 772 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:34,360 of your overall business and if so, how are you going to get it 773 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:35,840 there? What are the you know what? 774 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:41,640 What are the what are your plans to, to, to, to to to to build 775 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:47,320 Wildchild within the group? I couldn't tell you whether it 776 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,640 would be bigger the same or smaller in terms of I guess 777 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,280 financial size as the, as, as middle child or northern child 778 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,560 because one, we don't know where traditional television is going 779 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,720 and there's being optimistic. There's every chance we 780 00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:09,360 absolutely do fill a void and, and we are making low cost, high 781 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,600 volume stuff and we're making premium factual because they 782 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,440 want factual instead of entertainment So that we, we 783 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,920 don't know with that. I, I think with the, with wild 784 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:25,120 child, I think in 10 years time rather than three, you can see 785 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,120 that doing great guns. You really can. 786 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,720 I think at the moment, because we're having to sort of juggle 787 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:34,800 and get this balance right. And our focus is still primarily 788 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,880 on what we're structured to do and traditional learning and 789 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,600 television. That's kind of the, the 790 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,360 Wildchild stuff is happening organically. 791 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,840 And it's really nice because I think the opportunities that 792 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,560 kind of come up and make a lot of sense really quickly. 793 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,880 We can move on really quickly and then they happen. 794 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,960 So we're, we've already got 2 new very similar to the Alan 795 00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,920 model channels happening. So one with pets and one with 796 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,520 survival, which is an area we've sort of identified as as having 797 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,400 a decent amount of brands in. And we're working with someone 798 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,720 who's sort of high profile in that world. 799 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,440 So they would, they're definitely happening. 800 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,000 But we're also discussing doing an access observational 801 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,760 documentary type show along more along the lines of the 802 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,720 television pre sales route as well. 803 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,880 So those things haven't spent, we haven't spent loads and loads 804 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,080 of time sort of developing that and coming up with a new idea 805 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,360 necessarily. They've kind of happened 806 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,120 organically, which is amazing. So that can, if we can run it 807 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,680 like that, that's great because we're not investing loads of 808 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,040 time and energy into just trying to find the next big thing. 809 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,120 The opportunity is presenting itself to us, which is a really 810 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:54,240 nice space to be in because it's rare in this day and age, but it 811 00:48:54,240 --> 00:48:58,600 does show how much of an open door we're pushing at with with 812 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,880 that world. So I think The thing is, I'm 813 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,840 sure other people have already what they, you know, little talk 814 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,360 studios, for example, and, and, and again, spirit have done it. 815 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,960 It, it, I think some of the money from the big money, I 816 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:16,360 guess from the digital area is, is volume in terms of brands and 817 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,840 channels. So what that would allow us to 818 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:24,080 do is to have 10 different things going on under wild child 819 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,400 and a structure of permanent employees who are able to 820 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,240 oversee all 10. And then people working on those 821 00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:36,960 channels that have long term contracts with us to, to run 822 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:38,360 those channels. Because that's the brilliant 823 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:39,920 thing about it. And, and one thing I've been 824 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,720 saying to freelancers when I've been speaking to them is it is 825 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:45,680 different. And, and if, if, if there's an 826 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:47,960 expectation that it's just like, well, we're going to just do 827 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:49,320 everything the same as we normally do. 828 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,440 It's just for digital. Now I think that's going to be 829 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,680 pretty rare. There will be an element of that 830 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,040 for the digital channels that the broadcasters are running 831 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,560 because their expectation will, will still match a lot of the 832 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,080 linear television. And so the structures and, and 833 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:06,680 the roles within there will be similar. 834 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,400 But when we're talking about this world where the production 835 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,400 companies are essentially running the brands that business 836 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,600 models is so different that the roles and the rates can't be the 837 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,680 same. I mean, maybe they could be 838 00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,560 similar on certain projects, but generally speaking, it has to 839 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,200 change because what's happening behind the scenes and, and 840 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,320 where, when and where that money is coming from just isn't the 841 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,040 same. But I think the positive side of 842 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,200 that is the freelance communities had years of 843 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,440 struggling trying to find work and then being and, and finding 844 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:41,640 something and being out of work again. 845 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,240 And it's, it's awful. I think this feels really 846 00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:48,920 positive in that yes, OK, the role might be you might more 847 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,360 responsibility in the role. You might not have all the 848 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,760 people on the crew that you might normally have. 849 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,760 For example, you might have less time in an edit or whatever it 850 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,040 might be to make the money work and the rate might not be the 851 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,840 same as it will be in television on a premium Commission. 852 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,520 But what we can offer I think, or we will be able to offer 853 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:17,080 again, we as in the production community doing this is sort of 854 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,960 long term security because the point is we're not making a four 855 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,680 part series for Tally, which everybody kills themselves on 856 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,400 and then it goes out and then it doesn't come back because it 857 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,960 didn't rate or because they can't afford to come back. 858 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:37,360 With with with forecasting and content that is consistent and 859 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,760 solid and and forecastable, right? 860 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,720 Runs for as long as it, as long as it's growing or doing 861 00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:45,880 anything or even if it's not growing anymore because it's got 862 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,760 to the top, but it's, but it's still fantastically successful. 863 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:54,280 If if we create a brand and it's doing really well in its own 864 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,400 right via the online platforms and the socials that it's on, 865 00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,880 then that can run forever and ever and ever. 866 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,520 And we can be making telly from it and we can be doing podcasts 867 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,640 from it and we can be doing everything else. 868 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:10,240 And probably even newer, more wonderful ways of exploiting 869 00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:13,120 that content. People working on that if they 870 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,120 want to, could be working on that for the life of it or 871 00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,880 years. So it changes the model of work 872 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,880 within it. In some ways it may be deemed as 873 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,200 being slightly negative, as I said. 874 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,400 But I think in many ways if it all goes the way that it seems 875 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,680 to be going and there's many more production companies like 876 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:39,040 us trying to do that, then there will be more secure long term 877 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,080 work for people. And that to me feels like that's 878 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,120 definitely one of the positive sides of it rather than the 879 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,840 negative. Really interesting way of 880 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,960 looking at it, Andrew. It's time for Story of the Week 881 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:56,280 in our show. So what is the TV or content 882 00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:01,960 industry story that you've noticed and opened your eyes in 883 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,400 the last seven days or so? Having obviously spent, you 884 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,840 know, days and days thinking about this and then reading just 885 00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:14,120 before I came in here on broadcast that Janine Thomas has 886 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:18,080 got a job at Storyville. So moving from Channel 4 where 887 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:23,320 she's run the Untold strand for the last few years and now is a 888 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,680 commissioner for Storyville on the BBC and we've worked for 889 00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:32,120 Janine before and she's great. And so it's lovely news to read 890 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:36,320 anyway, but I just thought that's really interesting. 891 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:41,040 She's been sort of in charge of a digital first docs brand at 892 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:45,760 Channel 4 now for a few years. And I guess one of the sort of 893 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,280 highest profile documentary brands that we have in the 894 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,960 country at Storyville have deemed someone like that to be 895 00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,360 the perfect person to come and help them generate their 896 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:00,160 content. And I just think it's a good 897 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,160 news story for digital in some way. 898 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,400 It's just, it's the untold strand I think is a really good 899 00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,920 example of how you can do sort of really good docs digital 1st. 900 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,000 And yeah, I just thought that's quite positive. 901 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,720 Digital to digital to linear story. 902 00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:20,440 Yeah, fantastic. Well, well, well done to Janine. 903 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:24,640 Congratulations to her. How about your Hero of the Week? 904 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,360 Do you have a Hero of the Week? It has to be David Attenborough 905 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,680 at 100. Hard pressed to find a better 906 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,560 hero, especially for sort of linear television. 907 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:41,320 You know, like an absolute household name who's done that 908 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,760 through linear television. So it talks a lot, I think, to 909 00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:49,240 the heritage of that medium as much as anything else. 910 00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:55,000 And I think and how people from that world absolutely can cross 911 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,160 over into all the others. I just, I think linear 912 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:03,400 television is is it should be lauded a little bit more for 913 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,880 everything it has done rather than sort of the situation it 914 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,000 finds itself in now. And I think he's just a prime 915 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:13,360 example of an amazing person that's done some amazing things, 916 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,920 but a really good positive linear TV story as well. 917 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,200 Rarely can you say national treasure about somebody and 918 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,880 really, really mean it. But yeah, yeah, I would quite 919 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,200 like to if he's listening to a YouTube channel with him, if 920 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,800 he's if he's up for that, I. Think that'd be a brilliant 921 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,840 idea? And finally, what? 922 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:33,960 Who or what are you trying to get in the bin? 923 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:40,960 This is more of a, a, a group of people rather than one, but I 924 00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,560 have an 8 year old daughter and she's obviously not on social 925 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:49,320 media yet, but my I'm really attuned now to things that she 926 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,000 might see and hear and do on that when when eventually, 927 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,280 unfortunately she she has to experience it. 928 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,800 I think the sort of slop that's on those platforms now seems to 929 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,280 be much as everybody's all the positivity in the digital world. 930 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,360 I think there's, there's a lot of rubbish on there now and 931 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,640 there's a lot of, I know that's always been an issue and maybe 932 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,920 I'm just a bit more in tune to it, as I said, but I'm there's 933 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:22,400 more fakery from individuals on there and there's and there's a 934 00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,400 lot of yeah. And for all of the AIS 935 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,520 positivity and and potentially helpful things in, in our world, 936 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,600 the kind of slop that's now appearing everywhere, just 937 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:41,720 starting to kind of make it harder to find the authentic 938 00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:45,480 content on there. And that's definitely not a good 939 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,760 thing. And as a parent, would you 940 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,480 support? The under 16 ban for social 941 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,040 media, that's been sort of in in discussion at the moment, do you 942 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,320 think? Yeah, but because of that, it's 943 00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:56,120 a shame, isn't it? In a way? 944 00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,480 Because you wouldn't say we should do an under 16 ban on 945 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:03,560 people from terrestrial television because there's 946 00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:07,160 guardrails and you know, the content is authentic. 947 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:12,320 But until that's possible, it, it seems to only be getting 948 00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,680 worse to me. And I wouldn't want her exposed 949 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,600 to that or exposed to the tricks that they use to keep us all 950 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,160 hooked on it. It's not, you know, as the 951 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:28,080 without getting too political, as the, the Facebook court case 952 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,160 proved the other week, you know, they, they absolutely are trying 953 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,800 to addict people to the platform and that's not safe when they 954 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,720 also have some of the stuff I just mentioned on their platform 955 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,080 either. So it would be good to getting 956 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,880 that sorted, yes. No means we could we. 957 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:47,360 Could talk a lot. About that I think. 958 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,160 That's another rabbit hole we could go down. 959 00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,760 But for now, Andrew, thank you for joining me. 960 00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,880 It's been great conversation. I'm I wish you all the best with 961 00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,560 middle child and wild child. It's really exciting what you're 962 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,280 doing. And as I say, it's a really 963 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,920 great case study for a a previously linear focused 964 00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,360 business adapting to the digital first world. 965 00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,480 So congratulations for that. Thank you very much. 966 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:15,040 Thanks for coming on the show. Well, that's about it for this 967 00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,320 week's telecast. Thank you for Andrew for joining 968 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,480 us. TellyCast was produced by Spirit 969 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,600 Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back next week with 970 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:25,120 another show.