I am Justine Crosby and welcome to another episode of telecast.
My guest this week is Andrew Eastall, who's MD of Middlechild
Productions. Andrew, welcome to the show.
Thank. You very much for having me.
Great to see you. Thank you for making your way.
I think you're on the on the way down the country at the moment.
You've just been up in the North East, haven't you?
You're on your way to the South Coast.
We have an office northern child in Newcastle and we have middle
child in Brighton, so I have quite a commute between the
officers who've been there this week.
Brilliant. Well, thanks for thanks for
dropping in on your journey. So we recently spoke at the
House Make Money and digital event and, and it was really
fascinating conversation which we'll touch on and maybe go a
little bit deeper in a couple of areas that we touch on there.
But first of all, just for anybody that doesn't know Middle
Child, just give us a bit of a background of Middle Child
Productions and a bit of a history and what sort of
business you are. So we're essentially a
traditional TV production company.
It's sort of that's our heritage set up by David Sumner about 15
years ago and I came on board not long after that.
We make factual content for all of the major linear broadcasters
in the country. We do a lot of returning series,
OP spatial documentaries for Channel 5, UKTV.
We do current affairs singles for the BBC.
We do history stuff for Channel 4.
So as I say, very sort of traditional TV production.
We were originally in London and then opened up in Brighton and a
few years ago in Newcastle. Right, OK.
And first of all, how are you finding it at the moment, the
market, I mean things have changed right in the in the last
two years for production businesses like yours.
So what's give us your tales from the front line a little
bit. I think we're OK.
So I think that sounds super positive.
You know, we, you know, we're, we're busy and that's a really
good thing. And I know how difficult it is
to be busy at the moment. It's definitely harder.
And I think not just the obvious harder to get a Commission
because the linear broadcasters potentially don't have the sort
of money that they once had and a commissioning lesson so on.
But I think harder as well because at least for the last
maybe two years now, there's changes happening everywhere
across the industry very much at the broadcasters, you know, our
primary customers and we don't have any control over how they
are adjusting their businesses or what they might be doing.
So I think for production companies really predominantly
still chasing the same model of, of commissioning that we've
always have done, it sometimes feels like we're doing that
slightly blindly. And it's always been to a degree
like that. There's lots of variables,
variables behind the scenes that we aren't aware of when it comes
to their commissioning decisions.
But now it's, it's sometimes feels like an even bigger
guessing game. And I feel for the broadcasters
and the and the commissioning editors that we work with and we
know enough to know that that's just as hard for them on their
side. And I'm sure many of them are
sort of unsure about what the future holds entirely.
And I think from a traditional linear television perspective,
we just all hope that they can re what the right word would be,
reposition themselves maybe within the industry to be back
to a consistent level of commissioning, even if it's not
to the same sort of volume or price point that it was.
Yeah. Well, I think, I think you've
very clearly articulated the the the problem that pretty much
every Indian certainly factual indie or vast majority of
factual Indies in the UK are, are failing right now.
We're obviously seeing, you know, huge drops in
commissioning and the Commission that is happening is tighter on
budgets as well, which is putting more and more strain on
on independent production companies.
The reason for that, obviously less viewers and those eyeballs
have shifted onto social and you know, attention onto traditional
models. As you know, everybody's
attention is shifted into and fragmented and gone into
different ways. We all know that.
We've spoken about that a lot, a lot on telecast, obviously.
But what I'm particularly interested in is your business
and, and how you've adapted and how how are you you were looking
to adapt and planning to adapt to this new digital first
production landscape, which I think you've done really
successfully. And, and it's a really
interesting case study. You're gardening with Alan
Titchmarsh channel, which is YouTube basic digital first
channel. Tell us about the channel first
of all, so. I think in digital, digital in
general for us, we have we started doing some digital
commissions from the broadcasters.
So Channel 4 that digital for digital and for BBC and we've
we've always been doing quite low cost television, I think
high volume amongst everything we do.
So it wasn't something essentially a lower sort of
price point that we were worried about doing.
So we know how to make stuff as streamlined as we can make it
from a sort of budgetary perspective.
So with that in mind, I think we thankfully feel sort of a bit
more primed for moving in the direction that some of the
industry seems to be. We started working with ATV exec
called Matt Young who came to us and he had lots of experience
working on gardening shows, some of which were with Alan Titch
Push. And at the time we were
discussing potentially doing some kind of digital play.
We had done some research and looked at some data via a guy
called Hawa who had come to us and said that if we had
unlicensed content from television, he could repackage
that up and sort of pump it out through all the social media
platforms. And there would be a sort of
steady stream potentially of some revenue coming from that
footage, which was otherwise just sitting around.
We had spoken to him about doing some original content and, and
he was saying obviously that that was almost certainly
somewhere that would be a sort of higher earner, if you like, a
chance of actually making some better revenue via those
platforms rather than rehashed older content.
So when Matt came in, we started talking to him about Alan and
the potential of us putting together something with him.
The other thing we had done in the background before that was
look at genres within mainly the YouTube space.
I think that potentially would do well not just with an
audience, but with brands because we recognized early on,
still knowing very little, but knowing enough to know that the
revenue that we would generate from a YouTube channel via the
YouTube ads wasn't going to sustain something like gardening
with that. And Teach Marsh, for example,
wasn't going to sustain something like we might make as
ATV producer. Gardening had come up as one of
those areas that is not only a a popular area of content.
Obviously there isn't loads of really high profile people doing
that in the online space. It's not like gaming or or
beauty, for example, and also that there are clearly quite big
gardening brands and potentially they didn't have loads of place,
places other places to to spend their money.
So it ticked a lot of boxes. It's a.
Massive niche, isn't it? I mean, the fact is a lot of us
have got gardens, yeah. And there are a few areas like
that, right? I always for some reason, go to
fishing as one of those. It's one of those sort of
surprising areas that actually there's lots of an awful lot of
people involved in that and and passionate about that.
So there's a big market as a community that you could tap
into. But there will also be brands
commercially who don't have loads of places to spend their
money at the moment. So they're almost not part of
that thinner spread of advertising spend, which is part
of the reason that the linear broadcasters are struggling a
little bit more. So obviously we then had to be
with, with Matt's help, who's been amazing, speak with Alan
and Alan's agent and do the the usual stuff with that.
I say the usual stuff because actually that is still our bread
and butter. Speaking to to talent and doing
deals with those people and understanding the standards that
they would expect and, and the quality of the output that they
would expect is, is really key to, to sort of us being able to
do anything for television in the linear sense or, or for the
digital channel. And Alan and his agent were
excited about the possibility of doing it.
We treated it and still do very much like a traditional
television broadcast arrangement.
And we film it in much a similar way.
And that's not necessarily because we have to and, and, and
in this world, things are definitely more streamlined, but
our experience knows that talent, Alan is used to those
sorts of things. You're used to it being done
properly essentially. And that's a skill that we have
that potentially not everyone would.
So we, we are in many ways looking at the things that we
can do and taking advantage of that, if that makes sense
because. Absolutely.
I mean, it's almost, it's almost like a, I'd say a perfect recipe
in terms of you have talent who's really, really well known
with an agent who's with an outlook and an agent who's who
are really interested in experimenting with new
opportunities. You have really experienced
production company making longer form content.
You also have a huge growth in older viewers on YouTube who are
used to watching longer form content.
And naturally and obviously that explosion of older viewers, not
only older viewers, but more and more viewers watching on their
connected TV's at home, wanting a traditional broadcast
experience with a well known personality and trusted
personality and, and you know, in an area that's not really
being well served. So those are all the key
ingredients for for success really.
And I think it's not you then and us at the time make it sound
really easy. You're absolutely right.
They they tick all the boxes and we kind of assumed they would.
But I think all of those variables.
And there's. How do you fund it?
Yeah, there's. There's how do you fund it?
But also I think if you think about other ideas like that you,
you, you do run aground at some point quite quickly.
It's quite interesting that not quite all those variables aren't
quite all there to make something work.
And I'd add into that things like going to a really high
profile talent. Now, let's say in, in any kind
of subject area or, or a presenter, just a general
presenter, and they quite possibly have a really strong
presence online already. So they, they, they have all of
their socials sort of tied up and they, they do maybe do a bit
of YouTube and they certainly will be doing Instagram and and
TikTok. They may well have commercial
deals with people already with brands that limit them from
doing other things. So you that we have to play that
in as a factor because for us as a business, we don't want to be
a gun for hire just being in this case, for example, the
production company behind Alan's YouTube channel.
We want to create a brand that has a community that comes
around it and as that grows, have revenue sources that that
change and expand all the time that will pay back the the
money. Obviously we've invested into
into producing the channel, but also eventually create a profit
for a business. And if you don't have that, that
room to do that because other things are tied up, you know,
the talent already does a podcast or the talent's already
done a million books or they've already got their own
merchandise line, whatever it might be, then that becomes
harder. So ticking all those boxes is,
is definitely tricky, but I think we definitely bring to the
table when I, when I say we, I don't mean just middle child, I
mean experienced TV producers. I think we bring something to
the table which allows us to carve out potentially our own
space in this digital world that the creators that have been
doing this for a long, long time aren't necessarily able to do
quite as well. And that's really positive
because that's coming to something that it feels like
we've missed the boat on. But actually there's probably a
whole load of things that if we think carefully about where our
skill sets are, only we could do properly.
Again, when I say we, the producers, the companies, the
freelancers that are working in the television industry at the
moment, there's an awful lot we can do that isn't being done
yet, I think in those spaces. Yeah.
And I think that's the key. I think it's about your strength
and you, your superpowers, if you like, as a, as a business
and you know, it's easy, I think to look at digital 1st and, and
be a bit exasperated and feel a little bit, you know, hopeless
and helpless, you know, thinking, oh, we've missed the
boat. We don't understand all that,
You know, what all the creators are doing, we can't possibly
compete with. It's too late.
But actually, you know, that's why I think it's such a great
case study is the fact that you're playing to, you know,
you've got, you've identified as sort of almost like a like a
Goldilocks project in terms of everything's right.
And also your skill sets are perfectly in order for you to
deliver on that. Well, let's have a look at a
clip from Gardening with Alan Titchmarsh.
Now, you may end up looking like a stormtrooper from Star Wars,
but it's all in a good cause. Check when you're buying one of
these hedge trimmers that you can cope with the weight.
The lighter it is, the longer you will be able to use it.
You might think, oh that's OK. Believe me, after 1520 minutes
of using this, your arms will ache.
This is choicier tornata, the Mexican orange blossom.
Not a shrub to prune in winter because it's borderline tender,
but I want to show you the technique I use.
I've got it either side of the drive here and I've clipped it
into this rolling sea. So the important thing to do is
to watch the technique and to be smooth and sweeping in your
movements. But to do it in summer, Visor
down, machine on. Here we go.
So, So what was the the general thinking about moving into the
space as well as a business? I mean, you talked a bit
earlier, you know, we talked about it's difficult times.
Is it really just looking forward as a, as a future
proofing exercise and A and a, you know, a key strategic move
for you as a business? I think I don't.
I don't even 100% know if we still know would would be the,
the, the not the best answer to that, but an answer.
We love making television and we have a like all production
companies our size have a structure and a setup and
overheads essentially that are built to be fuelled by the
revenue that we might generate each year from traditional
linear television commissions. And it's very hard to then go,
well, actually let's just, you know, move everything over to
this digital scenario, a completely different model
because that model is completely different.
So, so the revenue stream is not the same.
It doesn't come at the same time, the money doesn't come in
at the same time. There's longer strategic plays
in digital, which may well pay off better than potentially a
television Commission at some point.
But our companies are set up to pay people's wages and, and, and
premises and everything based on the revenue that we get from
television. So I think we are, we still see
linear television as as a, as a sort of main source of income.
But I think especially when things seem like they're getting
harder or we're not busy, we're entrepreneurs and we're creative
people and, and much like the rest of the production
community. And so you are always looking
for where you can essentially make some more money to cover
your costs and to make sure everyone's getting paid
properly. So it's natural to go there
could be an opportunity here that our skills could be applied
to that actually can help us generate some of that revenue.
At the same time, it's at least positioning us in on that path.
Because if think none of us know yet quite how things are going
to readjust at the broadcasters, you know, within the community
in general. But if it does go down that road
and some form like almost completely, then at least we're
we're doing that. I think that to be honest, it's
probably that bit more than anything else there was the
creativity and just finding an opportunity, but also just
positioning ourselves to at least be trying that and and
seeing how that worked out for us.
But also more broadly, if that is the direction that things go
in. And I think at the moment it
does seem to be that that is the way even though you know, we're
still set up to operate like ATV production company and and
that's what we do. And just on that front, I think
there are some TV production companies who will really be
suffering at the moment because they may be most directly
affected by the things that aren't really being
commissioned. But then there are there is
still premium television being commissioned.
There seems to still be money for that, granted, largely and
sort of entertainment at the moment.
But I think at some point, you know, this is this, this is the
nature of the industry. It might be that they go
actually we're spending a lot of money on entertainment and, and
it's a pun and they don't all work.
What has always worked is documentary and observational
documentary and real people doing real stuff.
And you know, maybe that swings back and some of that premium
money spent on the things that we do already.
We also have done a lot of low cost, high volume as I, as I
imagined, to be honest, most of the production, the majority of
the production community out there in terms of companies is
not making the premium stuff. They're making the lower cost
stuff. And I do think that certainly
for the time being, linear broadcasters still need that to
fill their schedules. So it could be a time for all of
us at this sort of level to capitalize on that.
So I think there's some positivity in it, but at the
same time, we don't know where that's going to end up.
So we should have an eye on where else this could move
towards and, and that's what we're doing.
And I think we've had a really good experience with, with the
Alan channel and it's definitely going to, we're going to do more
because we can see the potential in it.
It's just getting that balance. And I think I speak for, you
know, all the production companies, it's like, Oh my God,
well, how much do we, how much time do we spend trying to chase
that? And do we have enough time to
survive whilst we wait for that to pay off?
And how much time do we spend on and developing TV ideas?
It's a real, you know, it's a balance.
Yeah, I mean there's, there's so many, so many points there that
you make that, you know, that are really interesting,
fascinating pressing. And I mean, 111 point is
obviously you've seen how the neighborhood is performed.
And and so that's, you know, perhaps a pointer in terms of
the, I'd say some of those higher budget decisions that
have been made by broadcasters and, and how they're developing.
It's hard. To know, isn't it?
Because what we do get told a lot, and understandably is that
things aren't really commissioned for the overnights
anymore, for the overnight numbers just don't seem to
matter as much anymore. And that makes sense.
And we don't know how well that might do on ITVX, for example.
And they're smart people behind them.
They, they, they may see the overnights as disappointing, but
they may have a, quite a good business strategy for how
ultimately that content pays off in the long run digitally.
It's, it's hard to know, but I I also think that if you're
getting good overnights, then you are attracting more
expensive advertising on your channel at that point.
So if you're doing over a million somehow on Channel 4,
Channel 5, for example, that's a valuable piece of factual
content. And if that factual content is
is of stock and it does seem from our perspective, you know,
we are still thankfully getting commissioned for the series that
we make in that space. They do a really solid job.
And if they take lots of punts and they don't pay off with the
bigger price stuff, you'd hope that there's also some more
cautionary but safer bets on that sort of factual OPS doc
type content that will also help fuel a lot of the smaller
production companies out there. And maybe it settles a bit more
into that. It's just hard to know.
Yeah, I mean one of the things just I mean I I don't watch
linear TV anymore, but I haven't to go to football game away the
other the other week and sort of sat down, laid on the hotel bed,
turned on the hotel TV and oh, you know, it almost felt a bit
of a novelty turning on a telly and leaping down rather than
going straight to fame phone. And I just looked at the EPG and
it was really interesting to see on Channel 4 and Channel 5 the
two digital first shows playing out at the same time.
There was Piers Morgan Uncensored and TFI Friday, both
of which are YouTube first shows.
And that certainly to me feels like, you know, the model of the
future in terms of TV just being one part of the production, the
universe, the IP universe that a producer needs to consider it's.
It's part of the ecology, I think.
And, and, and it already is, as you just said.
And I think you're right. I think there'll be more of that
and hopefully it's just a mix of all of it.
You know, will linear broadcasters end up just
acquiring content from digital spaces or or archive?
Maybe. But will there actually just be
a really long period where they are commissioning original
content? But they also do require more
content to come from those sources, in which case as
producers kind of where we're positioning ourselves at the
moment, you should be doing both, right?
Because you can be the seller and you can be the company
pitching an idea for the broadcaster to be commissioning
from you in the traditional way. And if we're able to generate
our own content and we have a brand that has various sources
of revenue and a really long shelf life, potentially that's a
nice position to be in. If you're selling some of that
content back to a broadcaster and not just in the UK, you
know, there's plenty of other territories it can be repackaged
for. And it's something that we're,
we're now in a conversation that's really far down the line
with selling a series using essentially the content we
filmed on the Alan Titchmarsh channel back to a broadcaster
with a bit of new filming and obviously some nice voice over.
And, and, and we'll re edit those shows down to suit the,
the channel and, and, and the idea for this series.
But you know, we're doing we, we are, that's another revenue
source for us, not one that we're reliant upon.
And we're providing a channel with content that's much more
affordable for them. It it makes an awful lot of
sense. Makes an awful lot, so I can see
you're then controlling your own IP and your own distribution,
which is which is think is really exciting.
It is liberating to be honest, because and I didn't realize
quite how much until you start thinking about it properly and
all the things you could do, many of which are probably crazy
ideas and when we probably won't do or they'll fail.
But even with just one set of content or one brand, in my mind
we could be repackaging something for one of the British
broadcasters and calling it whatever we're calling it, and
repackaging almost the same content with slightly different
edits and everything as a different series for a
broadcaster abroad who want slightly different things.
There's not one show we've already made and then we're just
trying to show we're trying to sell it.
There's all sorts of things you could do as simple as well, we
could sell hours of the show to this place and this place want
half an hour and this place want the title to be more this and
they want the footage to be more based in that part of where you
are rather than the other. But why not?
And I think there will become, I think hopefully, I think
there'll be a common a point where that kind of content being
acquired by the broadcasters will mean that the broadcasters
are less concerned about whether some of it in another form has
already appeared somewhere else or whether they can't have the
digital rights or whatever it might be.
I just think we're in a world where there's a necessity for
content on well established broadcast platforms, but there
isn't necessarily the means to acquire that content in the same
traditional way they they always have to.
And so you, you have to find it somewhere else.
And again, to go back to our as in traditional linear TV
producers position in that, well, that's something that they
were the broadcast platform is only likely to buy from those
people. So if we're producing that
online, let's say we're making it digital first, we know how to
also film that and prepare that ready for a potential broadcast
sale, so. You know when you're producing
it, you're producing it with TV in mind, but it's actually
YouTube first. But you're capturing everything
you need for TV as. Well, you could be a YouTube
creator with a fantastic channel that's massive and great content
that a broadcaster wanted. But the reality is the things
probably weren't in place to enable the broadcaster to take
it, which could be everything from down to what was filmed at
the time or what could be filmed add to it by that creator.
But also the legal compliance around it, the duty of care
things around it. All of that stuff is what we do
every day. And that doesn't mean we can go
online and create the same really popular channel that
someone's making from their bedroom, but it does mean we can
go into the digital space and make content that maybe hasn't
really been able to have been made before now.
Because that professional approach to it, behind the
scenes, it just hasn't really been available.
Yeah. And what's really interesting is
talking about international as well.
I mean obviously the YouTube shows up there.
Does does does Sam Titchmatch have a much of A following
internationally in in particular?
Yeah, I mean, so we're again you think about the subject as well.
So if you're, if you're looking at what subject we should work
within, if we're for a digital brand, it's a good idea for it
to travel because we as a company have always made quite
British centric documentary. And actually some of that does
sell really well around the world, but other times it's just
feels a bit too much of A of a British subject matter.
So gardening is obviously really good to give you that sort of
scope. And yeah, Alan has a name around
the world. So we're talking to distributors
now about distributing the program that we're making for
the broadcaster who will then sell that onto all of these sort
of things. They start to build up.
And I don't want to sit here and and sort of mislead the
production community and be like, you know, we're when we're
rolling in money because of this, because it isn't, it's not
the same numbers. I mean, everyone will know that
anything that's being acquired, for example, is, is, is not paid
for anywhere near the the number that you might get for a
Commission. But if you are covering your
costs. By having a brand.
Exactly. Yeah, then that, that is all
pure profit essentially. Essentially, yeah.
And you've got to look at how you then, you know, the plans to
grow that Channel and to attract more revenue streams cost more
money. But but if there's if there
there is a rolling system where you know, you can end up
generating enough money to do the next thing you want to do
and so on and so on and so on. And eventually the in the
background, almost the brand has grown to a point where it's more
valuable in terms of how much a brand might pay to be on it.
It's more valuable in terms of the size of the community that
are now aware of the brand and buying into the brand.
And then, you know, much as yourself has has done, you're
then into sort of live events and you're into all sorts of
other things. And there's no one way of.
Doing there's, there's, there's it's, it's absolutely, it's,
again, I've mentioned this a few times on recent shows, but the
content octopus, the IP in the middle and the, and the eight
legs of different ways of monetization, which is, which is
really, really, you know, key component really.
And that's why I thought it'd be really interesting to chat to
you about this because I think it's such a great case study and
so relevant to, I think a lot of producers out there who, you
know, have got those talent relationships, who've got great
ideas. What I think that stands out
about, about gardening with Alan Titchmash, though, and the
YouTube play is you've really leveraged the, the way that
Youtubers be is used as a search engine rather than purely being
a, you know, Internet TV, if you like, Because if I'm going to
work out, you know, how to, how to fill the patches on my lawn.
I think many, many people who are in DIY or gardening or
anything to do with home improvement, you're straight
onto YouTube and, and there you are.
So that so that, you know, it's a really, really great solution
to people's problems. And it was one of the things
that we looked at when we first looked into whether this was the
right subject matter. It comes into the educational
category on YouTube, which is a good place to be because
essentially you you're in a sort of slightly high tier of
advertising, but it's also a very popular place to be.
And as you rightly say, I think for a long time, all generations
have been typing into YouTube. How do I do this or what should
I do with this myself, myself included, if I'm being honest.
I'm, you know, I'm pushing 50, so I don't want to sort of try
to pretend I'm, I'm a young person.
But I would say that my first, my heavier usage of YouTube did
used to be that it did used to be.
It's an encyclopedia for things I just don't know how to do.
It's the world's second biggest search engine.
And and this is something I'm definitely not an expert in, but
I was thinking about the other day and and AI coming in.
I don't think, although lots of people are now asking chat GTP
how to do blah, blah, blah, like video, which at the moment chat
GDP isn't sort of pumping out as far as I know.
I think it's, it will be more looking at YouTube to find the
answers itself. You there's there's it feels
like there's a sustainability of video content for those that
that world. And that is definitely, I think
what's a driver for the older generation onto things like
YouTube. And we I'd need to look at the
data in detail to sort of understand the age demographic
of who's looking at the annotations gardening channel.
But it's definitely in the the older generation.
And I think that that also dictates a little bit of what
you do content wise. One thing we're saying to to our
guys internally in in development.
And again, I say all this thing like it's some like it's some
new thing that we've worked out. And you know, it's not lost on
me that there's been people doing this for a long time and
worked this out a long time ago. But we're talking to them when
it comes to digital conversations that they need to
come up with a business model first and the, and the content
later. Because we can all have amazing
ideas for something we'd like to make as a, as a show or, or a
film, but it's no point just us making a fantastic documentary
and just checking on YouTube and hoping for the best.
The, the, you know, Alan Titchmarsh gardening, the older
demographic using YouTube, all of these things are things that
we've considered 1st and then the content kind of comes
afterwards. But when you're thinking about
content, our ethos has been similar to what we were just
discussing. What's the things that the
audience needs to know? You know, that essential the
essential tips and tricks that this is the one stop shop to go
and get them from. We we could have added in, you
know, Alan talking about his career, which would be
fascinating, But I don't think in that medium that's
necessarily the right place to do it because you don't just
want Alan's fans watching. You want anyone that's got a
question about gardening to end up there anywhere in the world,
obviously. And I think videos like 4
essential things You need to do in April in your Garden is a
fantastic kind of title for a video because it gives that
sense to the person scrolling through YouTube that they have
to watch it, even if they didn't want to.
If I don't watch it, you know, what have I not done in my
garden in April? And the whole thing's going to
die, you know? So those sort of a sense of in
that space, those, those kind of, I think it is common sense
is my point, I think. And again, there's, there is an
art to it all and there's some people that are brilliant at
doing the thumbnails and the titles and so on.
And it makes a lot of sense. And, and it's, you know, trying
to work out the algorithm, obviously.
But I do think, again, as TV producers, we're selling stuff a
lot. You know, we're, we're selling
our shows, We're, we're trying to get people to watch them.
We're we're trying to tell really gripping stories and it's
just there's a continuation of that.
It's common sense for those that work in that world, I think.
Yeah. Well, but what I really like
about it is the way that you've talked about approaching this is
it's almost as a, as a new business has been an
entrepreneur approaching launching a channel as its own
business as opposed to just making a great show because
people, you think people are going to, you know, want to
watch it, which is definitely the smart way to approach it.
So let's let's just talk about the the success of the channel
then it's about half a million views a a month or something
like that at the moment, I think.
Yeah. Although when I checked this
morning, I think it was it, it'd gone up from that as well.
And it's got over 150,000 subscribers now and in a
relatively quick time, I think. So we've been told again, you
know, sort of news, all of this stuff you're learning as you go.
And it's kind of great because again, 50 years old and been in
the industry now for, for what seems like quite a long time,
It's quite nice to suddenly have a new sort of area to Start
learning about. So yeah, it it, it's interesting
when you sort of monitor like visit video views and it's easy
to get despondent. And we didn't know we do.
So no, why is that one not done really well and, and well, oh,
it's, you know, it's all going backwards and it's never going
backwards. But it's really hard to predict
or even understand afterwards, to be honest, why one video
would do well and and the other the other wouldn't.
The data is amazing to have it and it's something that is
another fantastic advantage of of that space.
We don't have anywhere near that level of data for traditional
television programs. So to have that data is really
important to lead you on to, to slightly twist your titles or
what kind of content you're going to have next or what the
thumbnails going to be. But it's also madly infuriating
because. Your, your content, what I think
we've, I've mentioned this before too, but your content is
really interesting because as it's that helpful content and
it's seasonal. Gardening is seasonal,
obviously. So you're like, you know,
everybody comes out of winter in the UK and goes, oh, right, I'm
going to do my first trip to the garden centre.
I've got to do something about this lawn.
This looks really, really, you know, really bad and obviously,
and that's the when you're in the process of sort of searching
and thinking about it. So therefore spring is a very,
really good, you know, time for people searching and, and, and
viewing. But obviously spring happens at
a different time around the year.
So you've got Australia having spring at a different, you know,
so it's, it's a really clever sort of rolling, you know,
searching for content or, or or library that you're creating for
people, which is, which is really smart.
Lucky for us, spring happens every year, you know, So it's
it, it's, it's got an eternity to it in, in that respect.
So again, I think it was strategic and we managed to tick
all the boxes somehow and it's doing well and it's all kind of
seems to have come together as we thought it might.
But part of me sort of thinks I'm not sure it's that easy to
repeat that, you know, Alan, you know, is an amazing talent to
have in that space. So if we think about other sort
of subject matters that aren't gardening and then you think
about who's the top person in that, you know, they're they're
probably not gettable. You know, it's it's quite unique
for us to have a subject area with probably the leading sort
of high profile person in the country in that space on our
channel. I think that makes a massive
difference obviously. But then I think the other you
can look at the way we've been looking at it is that all of
these channels, all the different variables are at sort
of different levels of positive and negative.
And you kind of where one thing feels weaker, something else
gets stronger and it seems to happen all the time.
So just as an example, if we found a subject area that we
knew was under catered for, but we also knew there's big brands
available to it, that potentially would come in and,
and, and support the funding of it.
But the person that was the leading person in that field
didn't have a high profile. What we would find is that some
of the other aspects of that are then made easier.
So if that person didn't have such a high profile, they're
probably not as busy as say Alan would be.
And therefore you can actually feel more content quicker
potentially. And when you start sort of when
one of those things goes down, another one often goes up.
It also depends which way round you're doing it, which can get
confusing now. But with brands, what we've been
doing is approaching them and saying, you know, we, we have
this, this channel, this person is fronting it, this is the
content. And they've been really keen to
get involved really quickly if they're not keen to get involved
very quickly. And we need to see some growth
in the channel first. And we need to look at other
revenue sources. But often where brands aren't
available and you've not therefore got sort of product
placement or or sponsorship, what we're starting to see just
through conversations is it makes some of the other revenue
sources more interested. So whereas we can often look at
models where we're selling content, repackaging it back to
television, conversations we're having now about other ideas are
well, the first thing we do is get a pre sale for this content
from television. And we then know that we're
getting we saying we can make a 12 part series for you with our
footage. It's not talent LED, it's just
good quality factual television. We can deliver it to you in six
months. They say, yeah, OK, we'll pay X
for that. We then start making the content
and and creating a brand online that that will still be there.
And we know that that money is either partly paid or coming to
us. And let's say we do that for a
year. Our channel has grown thanks to
the pre sales that we had for the broadcaster who was willing
to take the show. And then there's enough of a
community to bring brands in. And so brands come in later then
and then they become maybe the primary source.
But we were able to get the channel off the ground because
the revenue was coming from the TV angle.
So it all sort of flips around and you can kind of move it
around and it gets complicated. And I'm, I'm saying this
slightly speculatively because these are definitely
conversations that we're having and it seems absolutely like
things will pan out like that, but I don't think you also ever
really fully know. Well, it's such it's so you,
it's so you know, it's these opportunities are are new and
you know, the, you know, everyone's sort of building the
plane whilst they're flying. Yeah, I.
Would say though, that it feels like at the moment, as you start
to think that way or you start to have conversations or even
start to make content, so far more opportunities are opening
up than closing off. There's definitely things that
we've not thought was even an option until we started
discussing it with various entities.
And now, you know, I'm having meetings with people
representing brands who are interested in what we're doing
and, and how they could get involved.
And whether that means we end up doing some branded content.
Again, been around for a long time.
The sort of thing that that that spirit will do a lot of good
stuff on or it means that we know that there are brands
around that would support, you know, very much our own channel.
And then we have that longevity because it's, it's, it's our
brand. We're not just kind of being
commissioned to make six months worth of videos for a brand, but
we still retain. So we haven't something that we
can retain that kind of IPO for, for a lifetime and go off in
whichever direction we want. So final question, Andrew is
looking ahead to the future now you've you've you've launched
your digital division middle child, which is wild child.
Right. Wild child.
Yeah, which it really is because it needs to be treated like a
separate business because it does.
It can't just plug into the same sort of structure and you know,
rates and roles that we have at the moment.
So let's say three years in the future, Middle Child is
hopefully still working with linear production as well.
Would you estimate that Wildchild will be a bigger part
of your overall business and if so, how are you going to get it
there? What are the you know what?
What are the what are your plans to, to, to, to to to to build
Wildchild within the group? I couldn't tell you whether it
would be bigger the same or smaller in terms of I guess
financial size as the, as, as middle child or northern child
because one, we don't know where traditional television is going
and there's being optimistic. There's every chance we
absolutely do fill a void and, and we are making low cost, high
volume stuff and we're making premium factual because they
want factual instead of entertainment So that we, we
don't know with that. I, I think with the, with wild
child, I think in 10 years time rather than three, you can see
that doing great guns. You really can.
I think at the moment, because we're having to sort of juggle
and get this balance right. And our focus is still primarily
on what we're structured to do and traditional learning and
television. That's kind of the, the
Wildchild stuff is happening organically.
And it's really nice because I think the opportunities that
kind of come up and make a lot of sense really quickly.
We can move on really quickly and then they happen.
So we're, we've already got 2 new very similar to the Alan
model channels happening. So one with pets and one with
survival, which is an area we've sort of identified as as having
a decent amount of brands in. And we're working with someone
who's sort of high profile in that world.
So they would, they're definitely happening.
But we're also discussing doing an access observational
documentary type show along more along the lines of the
television pre sales route as well.
So those things haven't spent, we haven't spent loads and loads
of time sort of developing that and coming up with a new idea
necessarily. They've kind of happened
organically, which is amazing. So that can, if we can run it
like that, that's great because we're not investing loads of
time and energy into just trying to find the next big thing.
The opportunity is presenting itself to us, which is a really
nice space to be in because it's rare in this day and age, but it
does show how much of an open door we're pushing at with with
that world. So I think The thing is, I'm
sure other people have already what they, you know, little talk
studios, for example, and, and, and again, spirit have done it.
It, it, I think some of the money from the big money, I
guess from the digital area is, is volume in terms of brands and
channels. So what that would allow us to
do is to have 10 different things going on under wild child
and a structure of permanent employees who are able to
oversee all 10. And then people working on those
channels that have long term contracts with us to, to run
those channels. Because that's the brilliant
thing about it. And, and one thing I've been
saying to freelancers when I've been speaking to them is it is
different. And, and if, if, if there's an
expectation that it's just like, well, we're going to just do
everything the same as we normally do.
It's just for digital. Now I think that's going to be
pretty rare. There will be an element of that
for the digital channels that the broadcasters are running
because their expectation will, will still match a lot of the
linear television. And so the structures and, and
the roles within there will be similar.
But when we're talking about this world where the production
companies are essentially running the brands that business
models is so different that the roles and the rates can't be the
same. I mean, maybe they could be
similar on certain projects, but generally speaking, it has to
change because what's happening behind the scenes and, and
where, when and where that money is coming from just isn't the
same. But I think the positive side of
that is the freelance communities had years of
struggling trying to find work and then being and, and finding
something and being out of work again.
And it's, it's awful. I think this feels really
positive in that yes, OK, the role might be you might more
responsibility in the role. You might not have all the
people on the crew that you might normally have.
For example, you might have less time in an edit or whatever it
might be to make the money work and the rate might not be the
same as it will be in television on a premium Commission.
But what we can offer I think, or we will be able to offer
again, we as in the production community doing this is sort of
long term security because the point is we're not making a four
part series for Tally, which everybody kills themselves on
and then it goes out and then it doesn't come back because it
didn't rate or because they can't afford to come back.
With with with forecasting and content that is consistent and
solid and and forecastable, right?
Runs for as long as it, as long as it's growing or doing
anything or even if it's not growing anymore because it's got
to the top, but it's, but it's still fantastically successful.
If if we create a brand and it's doing really well in its own
right via the online platforms and the socials that it's on,
then that can run forever and ever and ever.
And we can be making telly from it and we can be doing podcasts
from it and we can be doing everything else.
And probably even newer, more wonderful ways of exploiting
that content. People working on that if they
want to, could be working on that for the life of it or
years. So it changes the model of work
within it. In some ways it may be deemed as
being slightly negative, as I said.
But I think in many ways if it all goes the way that it seems
to be going and there's many more production companies like
us trying to do that, then there will be more secure long term
work for people. And that to me feels like that's
definitely one of the positive sides of it rather than the
negative. Really interesting way of
looking at it, Andrew. It's time for Story of the Week
in our show. So what is the TV or content
industry story that you've noticed and opened your eyes in
the last seven days or so? Having obviously spent, you
know, days and days thinking about this and then reading just
before I came in here on broadcast that Janine Thomas has
got a job at Storyville. So moving from Channel 4 where
she's run the Untold strand for the last few years and now is a
commissioner for Storyville on the BBC and we've worked for
Janine before and she's great. And so it's lovely news to read
anyway, but I just thought that's really interesting.
She's been sort of in charge of a digital first docs brand at
Channel 4 now for a few years. And I guess one of the sort of
highest profile documentary brands that we have in the
country at Storyville have deemed someone like that to be
the perfect person to come and help them generate their
content. And I just think it's a good
news story for digital in some way.
It's just, it's the untold strand I think is a really good
example of how you can do sort of really good docs digital 1st.
And yeah, I just thought that's quite positive.
Digital to digital to linear story.
Yeah, fantastic. Well, well, well done to Janine.
Congratulations to her. How about your Hero of the Week?
Do you have a Hero of the Week? It has to be David Attenborough
at 100. Hard pressed to find a better
hero, especially for sort of linear television.
You know, like an absolute household name who's done that
through linear television. So it talks a lot, I think, to
the heritage of that medium as much as anything else.
And I think and how people from that world absolutely can cross
over into all the others. I just, I think linear
television is is it should be lauded a little bit more for
everything it has done rather than sort of the situation it
finds itself in now. And I think he's just a prime
example of an amazing person that's done some amazing things,
but a really good positive linear TV story as well.
Rarely can you say national treasure about somebody and
really, really mean it. But yeah, yeah, I would quite
like to if he's listening to a YouTube channel with him, if
he's if he's up for that, I. Think that'd be a brilliant
idea? And finally, what?
Who or what are you trying to get in the bin?
This is more of a, a, a group of people rather than one, but I
have an 8 year old daughter and she's obviously not on social
media yet, but my I'm really attuned now to things that she
might see and hear and do on that when when eventually,
unfortunately she she has to experience it.
I think the sort of slop that's on those platforms now seems to
be much as everybody's all the positivity in the digital world.
I think there's, there's a lot of rubbish on there now and
there's a lot of, I know that's always been an issue and maybe
I'm just a bit more in tune to it, as I said, but I'm there's
more fakery from individuals on there and there's and there's a
lot of yeah. And for all of the AIS
positivity and and potentially helpful things in, in our world,
the kind of slop that's now appearing everywhere, just
starting to kind of make it harder to find the authentic
content on there. And that's definitely not a good
thing. And as a parent, would you
support? The under 16 ban for social
media, that's been sort of in in discussion at the moment, do you
think? Yeah, but because of that, it's
a shame, isn't it? In a way?
Because you wouldn't say we should do an under 16 ban on
people from terrestrial television because there's
guardrails and you know, the content is authentic.
But until that's possible, it, it seems to only be getting
worse to me. And I wouldn't want her exposed
to that or exposed to the tricks that they use to keep us all
hooked on it. It's not, you know, as the
without getting too political, as the, the Facebook court case
proved the other week, you know, they, they absolutely are trying
to addict people to the platform and that's not safe when they
also have some of the stuff I just mentioned on their platform
either. So it would be good to getting
that sorted, yes. No means we could we.
Could talk a lot. About that I think.
That's another rabbit hole we could go down.
But for now, Andrew, thank you for joining me.
It's been great conversation. I'm I wish you all the best with
middle child and wild child. It's really exciting what you're
doing. And as I say, it's a really
great case study for a a previously linear focused
business adapting to the digital first world.
So congratulations for that. Thank you very much.
Thanks for coming on the show. Well, that's about it for this
week's telecast. Thank you for Andrew for joining
us. TellyCast was produced by Spirit
Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back next week with
another show.