1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Once people start listening to podcasts, they really start 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:04,480 listening to them go where the audiences are. 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,880 And so if I was starting a show now, I'd absolutely be saying it 4 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,680 has to have video from day one. It's not about necessarily 5 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,360 creating the biggest show or sort of audio podcast in the 6 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,400 world. It's about getting a sizeable 7 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,000 audience, but which can have value. 8 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,440 You know, if I was ATV producer now, I'd be looking at the 9 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,680 amount of opportunity there is because of the consumption 10 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,920 that's going on YouTube, because podcasting can give me a route 11 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,080 in that doesn't cost very much. We really are still at a very 12 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,800 early space and stage for this industry and this huge amounts 13 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:32,439 of opportunities still, still to go. 14 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,480 Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to another episode of 15 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:40,000 Telecast with our new set. So I'm delighted to welcome 16 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:41,920 Steve Ackerman, our guest this week. 17 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,400 One of the UK's most influential audio execs, known for building 18 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,760 something else into a leading force in radio, branded audio 19 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,720 and podcasts before its acquisition by Sony Music, where 20 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,240 Steve became Executive Vice President and Head of Global 21 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,520 Podcasts, overseeing international podcast strategy, 22 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,360 creative development and high profile talent partnerships. 23 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,320 Steve's career spans 2 decades of shaping audio IP development 24 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,560 and cross-platform storytelling, giving him a front row view of 25 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,720 how the sector's evolving. And when you look at the audio 26 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,920 landscape now and, and video podcasts, I mean, it's all 27 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,600 merging. It's all a really exciting 28 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,000 space. So first of all, Steve, welcome 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:28,640 to the show. Delighted that you're you're 30 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,440 joining. US thank you, Justin and and I 31 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,960 appreciate you making me a lot younger because I think it's 33 32 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:36,400 decades over 3 decades. So but but I'll take it. 33 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:37,240 It's good all. Right. 34 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,920 Fantastic. Well, well, listen, you know, 35 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,640 you're obviously super well known in, in the US, in the UK 36 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:48,560 podcasting space and your, your time with Sony's just finished, 37 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,520 doesn't it? Has just finished two two weeks 38 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:51,720 ago. Right, OK. 39 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,440 So, you know, really thrilled that you can join us because 40 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,560 there's there's so much knowledge that you've got of 41 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,000 this, you know, coming from really a sort of pure radio 42 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,680 background, right? I mean, tell, tell us a little 43 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,200 bit about your career story. First of all, I mean, we were 44 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,120 talking just off camera and you, you said you started it. 45 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,880 Was it whips cross radio was it was your very first Whips. 46 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,320 Cross Hospital radio when I was still at school, my mum and dad 47 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,920 used to drop drop me down on Monday night to go and to go and 48 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:17,160 help. But yeah, so, so radio was the 49 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,560 deep background, started as a as a radio DJ and a journalist for 50 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,400 the fledgling Radio 5, and then, you know, became a producer and 51 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,360 then the exec producer and went that sort of route. 52 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,200 And then obviously eventually you suddenly find you're 53 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,360 managing teams and running businesses and you're not in the 54 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,280 studio at all. And there's something else. 55 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,200 Journey was was one where, you know, we started within radio, 56 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:39,920 but you couldn't scale a business within radio. 57 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:42,720 And even though we became really, you know, really serious 58 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,120 players in that space, that just wasn't the global market to 59 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,640 really scale a business in that space. 60 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:51,000 So, so we really evolved into a business that had always had 61 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,680 audio very much of its heart, but had a big social media 62 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,480 component was doing a lot of online video and TV. 63 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,560 And you know, I think I said you before the recording back in the 64 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,800 day, no one quite understood what we were. 65 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,400 We were a multi content, you know, multi platform business, 66 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,720 which obviously is exactly what many, many production companies 67 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,240 are now. But back then no one could quite 68 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:11,440 understand this. And then of course, when 69 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,720 podcasting came along, because we had this huge expertise in 70 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,640 the audio, we were able to just jump on that really quickly and, 71 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,440 and, and sort of seize that opportunity. 72 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,160 Yeah. I mean, when was it when when 73 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,680 podcasting started to develop and become, you know, something 74 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,680 that was that really excited you can you can you think back to 75 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,920 when what was it about podcasting immediately that that 76 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,920 you saw an opportunity? Well, I think it was the obvious 77 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,160 thing of, of the on demandness of it. 78 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,520 And, you know, we were already at a point where TV viewing was 79 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,120 clearly going that way. And I think it just felt pretty 80 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,680 obvious that the, if you have the choice to listen to whatever 81 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,120 you want to listen to, why would you just turn on the radio and 82 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,400 hope you find something? And it's not that different from 83 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,960 me, from the exact mentality of I think what we've seen happen 84 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:02,840 on on TV. And then alongside that, it was 85 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,280 also the fact that it really, I could see that for the first 86 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,640 time it was going to allow audio to be able to create IP and have 87 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,040 an IP market in the same way that TV production had been able 88 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,480 to do and to be able to create ideas that could travel around 89 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,000 the world in the same way that TV had been able to do. 90 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,480 So it was those components really that stood out for me as 91 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,760 really being transformative. Yeah. 92 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,000 And and so something else grew gives gives us a sense of the 93 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,200 scale that the business grew to before you. 94 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,080 You sold to Sony and, and, and give us a sense of, you know, 95 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,520 what, what that deal was like and what that allowed you to go 96 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,120 on to, to to achieve. Yeah, well, we, I mean, we, you 97 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:41,680 know, we got to a pretty decent size. 98 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,840 We, we were turning over sort of healthy 88 figure, you know, 99 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,360 healthy 88 figure amount. We were obviously profitable. 100 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,320 And then the, the, the, the Sony deal sort of came in two parts 101 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,560 because we had a very traditional or, or sort of well 102 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,040 trodden M and a route where we first all got into bed with them 103 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,120 from a production perspective. So they started funding all of 104 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,080 our podcasts and they did this with five or six companies 105 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,240 around the world. We we were one of two, they were 106 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,640 doing it within the UK. So they were outsourcing their 107 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:09,600 production to you? Well. 108 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,440 So they didn't have any internal production. 109 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,320 It was very much a, a music label approach, which was we're 110 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,080 going to fund all these other companies and we'll Co own the 111 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,120 IP that comes out of those shows. 112 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,880 So they, they shared ownership in our shows. 113 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,600 They didn't have any ownership of our business. 114 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,680 And after about 18 months, it was obvious the relationship was 115 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,640 going very well. We were really succeeding for 116 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:30,640 them. We were producing some really 117 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,160 good hit hit shows, some some some large numbers from an 118 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,440 audience perspective. And then they obviously said, 119 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,320 well, we'd, we'd like to buy you now. 120 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,600 So, so that was great. And, and the reason that they 121 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,360 wanted to bias, which obviously we didn't know at the time of 122 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,600 the acquisition was there was this aim to create a global 123 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,200 podcast division and really cement something else as the 124 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,520 sort of central component within that. 125 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,600 So, so that happened. And part of that deal was the 126 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,280 chance for me to go and work in New York and be based over there 127 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:01,160 and build up the team in the States as well as maintain the 128 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,560 team here, which, you know, which I did. 129 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,080 Yeah. And it's interesting that you 130 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,880 mentioned it was, it was the music side of the business of 131 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,800 side of Sony that acquired you rather than the pictures 132 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,760 television side of it. Whereas obviously we're now 133 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,320 seeing and we were seeing a huge amount of mergers happening and 134 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,240 acquisitions like global are going out and buying obviously 135 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,840 fellow studios and, and other deals that they've done 136 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:27,160 recently. It's kind of really interesting 137 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,480 that you see, we see more and more radio, traditional radio 138 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,600 players getting into sort of video LED formats and, and 139 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,160 podcast shows. I mean, and, and I suppose that 140 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,840 was just the back then the type, you know, radio and music 141 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:42,200 essentially were, were quite, you know, were quite 142 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,640 interlinked, weren't they? And traditionally rather than 143 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,520 that, this necessarily being as an opportunity for the TV part, 144 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,640 part of the business. Well, I think the driver then, 145 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,440 and it's still relevant now, was that what podcast has done is 146 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,760 it's eaten into share of air against music. 147 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,480 So in other words, obviously if you're listening to lots of 148 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,440 podcasts, your music consumption traditionally goes down. 149 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,120 And you can see that pattern of behaviour happening in almost 150 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,400 every market. And what you see with podcast 151 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,760 listening is once people start listening to podcasts, they 152 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,400 really start listening to them. And you know, very quickly they, 153 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,200 they can become a, a person who might consume 5 or 6 podcasts a 154 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,520 week, depending on what their commute is or so the sort of 155 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,040 listening can be very heavy. Of course, you know, we're not 156 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,520 in a dissimilar position now, even with the video piece of 157 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,240 the, of the pie, which is it's another, it's another form of 158 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,280 trying to gain, trying to gain share. 159 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,880 And you can see how all the major streamers are really 160 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:37,760 starting to take podcasting seriously. 161 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,880 In fact, that, you know, today, the day we're recording is the 162 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,160 day that Netflix have launched podcasts on Netflix now with the 163 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,920 shows that they bought in from Spotify and I heart and, and, 164 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,040 and, and other folks. And I'm sure this is only the 165 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,560 beginning. So it really becomes it becomes 166 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,560 an equation of, you know, what share are you trying to grab and 167 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,040 how are you trying to trying to grab it? 168 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,720 And I think, you know, we're absolutely at the point now, but 169 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,440 we certainly were when the deal was done. 170 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,920 That podcasting is, you know, is an important part of that 171 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:02,720 equation. Yeah. 172 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,360 I mean, it's really exciting time, isn't it, when you think 173 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,600 about the the lowering of the barriers to entry right now when 174 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:17,080 it comes to be able to create a global piece of IP, what that 175 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,880 can start as a podcast and essentially would would 176 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,600 generally, I suppose, start as AI mean well, here's here's a 177 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,560 question. Knowing what you know now, if 178 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,760 you were to start a brand new podcast show, how would you do 179 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,200 that? Would you would you start that 180 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,320 as a, you know, video has been in the the the key important 181 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,600 component of it or his audio? Just give us a sense of if you 182 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,159 were to start a show now what? What would it look like? 183 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,360 Well, I think it's not, it's definitely not either or in 184 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,640 terms of video or audio. I think both of them have to 185 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,000 come together. I mean, exactly as you're doing, 186 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:50,760 right? Go where the audiences are. 187 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,120 And so if I was starting a show now, I'd absolutely be saying it 188 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,760 has to have video from day one. It's got to have a really well 189 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,880 thought through an intentional approach to social because that 190 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,400 has to build on what's happening. 191 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,440 And and sort of obviously that's, that's how we're going 192 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,560 to go and try and reach people. But audio has to be a really 193 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,160 important part of the of the mix. 194 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,360 And I think certainly the past sort of maybe 18 months, two 195 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,640 years, there's been, there's been, there's been a narrative 196 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,080 going on that sort of audio podcasting is dead. 197 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,200 And it's all about video now. And it just isn't. 198 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,760 I mean, the audience numbers just don't show that in any way 199 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,640 at all. And in fact, when you look at 200 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,760 research, what you see is that it's not one audience eating the 201 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,680 lunch of another audience. They're both compatible with 202 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:34,480 each other, obviously. I mean, it is the classic thing. 203 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,440 Just go where audiences are. And some people prefer to watch 204 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,560 their podcast, some people prefer to to listen to them. 205 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,000 Many. People, in many cases, it's a 206 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,080 separate audience, it's a. Separate audience. 207 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,520 Exactly that. And many times you find 208 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,280 audiences will switch depending on what it is they're doing. 209 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:50,360 I mean, I've done that with your show. 210 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,600 Sometimes I listen to it and sometimes I've watched it on, on 211 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,760 the telly. So, you know, it just depends on 212 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,720 on that sort of audience behaviour pattern I think. 213 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,200 Yeah, and there's there's a number. 214 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,080 I mean, Jamie E is, I'm a big fan of what Jamie E does. 215 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:09,080 And I know he's, he's very, I think he's very, he's very keen 216 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:13,640 on audio becoming, being audio only if you like and, and, and a 217 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,760 number of podcasts that perhaps do try and do both, but 218 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,600 potentially waters down the audio because of what they're 219 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,400 trying to achieve in video. I mean, that's quite a difficult 220 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,480 balance to achieve, I think, You know, I mean, do you? 221 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:31,960 I mean do. You well, I think again, I think 222 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:33,720 it's about being cognizant of the audience. 223 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,400 Look, I think it's certainly true. 224 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,560 You know, at Sony, we developed a very successful true crime 225 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:41,000 channel called the Binge and clearly that's narrative 226 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,160 storytelling. And at the moment, you know, I 227 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,280 don't think AI is quite there yet to support that from a video 228 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,080 storytelling perspective. I think it's going to come, but 229 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,240 as a medium in audio works absolutely brilliantly. 230 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,120 And of course we were targeting that to be an audio product for 231 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,240 the audience. I think what what Jamie has in 232 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,400 mind is where, you know, I think we we've seen some podcasts 233 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,040 launched where, you know, there's jokes that happen on the 234 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,160 screen and of course, if you're listening, you just have no idea 235 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,000 what's going on. I mean, actually, you know, I 236 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,720 can think of shows like diverse CEO that are sort of slightly 237 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,440 guilty of that. Some, some sometimes where, you 238 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,000 know, as as fantastic as that show is, sometimes Stephen's 239 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,240 talking to the audience member and they're using things to 240 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:19,480 demonstrate the point they're making. 241 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,520 And as an audio listener, you just have no idea what's going 242 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,040 on. And I think that's more down to 243 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,040 the production of, of, of, you know, well, OK, can the host be 244 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,480 a bit more, a bit more cognizant that there is an audio audience 245 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,400 as well? It's no different from what what 246 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,680 used to happen on the radio. Explain to the audience, draw 247 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:34,400 the pictures, you know, describe what's going on. 248 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,280 It doesn't have to actually take away from the video. 249 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,320 So again, it's not an either or thing, you know, I, I, I don't 250 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,280 subscribe to that. But if you back to the idea of 251 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,120 if you were going to start a new podcast now, would it also need 252 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,440 to have the ability for it to go live as well to be a live show 253 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,280 potentially or you know, something that that that can 254 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,360 eventually be the video aspect of it can be potentially 255 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,560 licensed to to broadcasters, you know, at a later point in time. 256 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:06,840 I mean this is are these all key components of what a modern 257 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,440 podcasts should should shooting? With the key components of where 258 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,520 a modern podcast can get to, but I don't think that's the same as 259 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,480 when you're launching and starting out. 260 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,040 I think the most important point to be thinking about is who's 261 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,000 the audience? Who am I trying to reach and 262 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,080 how? How can I have that appeal to 263 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,680 them? How can I build that community? 264 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:27,200 Because if you can build the audience, then of course all 265 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,720 those other things follow. Yeah, the live show can come or 266 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,840 there might be some interest from a broadcast or you can get 267 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,520 the merch range going or, or frankly, you can just launch 268 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,200 products off the back of the podcast. 269 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,600 Have nothing to do with the podcast. 270 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,880 Yeah, but the content has to be strong in the 1st place. 271 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,400 And that means having an appeal to an audience and, and building 272 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,760 a community. And I think and, and, and 273 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,560 actually podcasting and, and, and you know, content on YouTube 274 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,480 that I think is the significant thing that those mediums offer 275 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,880 that traditional broadcast obviously can't because it's a 276 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,880 one way conversation. Yeah, and that's something that 277 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,800 we we talk about a lot on this show is about building 278 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,000 communities around content, you know, which, yeah, as as you 279 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,400 say, podcasting is, has really shown that the the ability to 280 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,680 do. So where do you think, you know, 281 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:11,760 in terms of the lives of podcasts? 282 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,600 So you were there right the very beginning and, and harnessed, 283 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,200 you know, the the medium and, and, and have been very 284 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,720 successful through it. We're we're at a stage now, as 285 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,840 you say, you know, that podcast is starting to land on 286 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,640 streamers. We're starting to see Channel 4 287 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,720 licensing a lot of their shows onto Spotify, for example, you 288 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,040 know, deals going in all different directions. 289 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:38,040 Where do you think we are in terms of the, the maturity and 290 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,200 the development of the podcast industry? 291 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,680 Because we, we, it feels like it's become gone through a 292 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:47,880 number of boom years now video is playing more of a, more of a 293 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,640 role in it. It that seems to me to bring 294 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,360 much more opportunity. And again, that barrier to entry 295 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,600 for a lot of people coming in who may have broadcast 296 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,320 experience is even lower. I mean, where, where, where do 297 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,160 you see the, the, the industry on it's sort of journey right 298 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,920 now? It's the, the opportunity is, is 299 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,400 genuinely fantastic. And you know, this is an, I feel 300 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,560 this is another moment where it's a very sort of, it's a very 301 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:20,400 exciting inflection point. It's easy to forget 10 years ago 302 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,040 there wasn't a podcast industry. I mean, there really wasn't in 303 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,600 the States or here, you know, so, so this is a baby bit of the 304 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,440 entertainment ecosystem. It's a really new bit. 305 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,640 And as you say, it's already been through a few iterations. 306 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,080 There's been a boom, there's definitely been a, you know, a 307 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,040 slight retrenchment and now it's coming back again. 308 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,760 You know, I think it's a very exciting moment kind of for some 309 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:40,840 of the points you've just raised. 310 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,360 First of all, it's broken out of just being an audio medium. 311 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,880 And as I keep saying, it's not either or, you know it, it can 312 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,680 be both and that's and that's fine. 313 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,560 But but also when you look at the opportunities for sort of 314 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,400 regular revenue, some of those are still only just developing 315 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,000 at the moment. You know, some of the more 316 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,240 traditional advertising is still in place and is now motoring 317 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,880 along. And we're seeing a lot of blue 318 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,000 chip clients come in now to replace those original 319 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,720 Squarespace in the, you know, direct marketing sort of brands 320 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,240 who who were there in the early days of podcasting. 321 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,120 But but we're seeing fairly significant changes happening 322 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,040 now with Spotify, with YouTube in, in terms of how they're 323 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,800 going to handle advertising that can sit within podcasts. 324 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,440 And that's going to open up even more revenue streams for 325 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,160 podcasters alongside subscription. 326 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,920 And then all the derivative things you talked about live and 327 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,680 merchandising and all the other opportunities. 328 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,960 So All in all, if I was coming into podcasting now, I'd be 329 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:36,040 super excited because because we really are still at a very early 330 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,480 space and stage for this industry and this huge amounts 331 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,160 of opportunities still, still to go. 332 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,960 Yeah, I feel it feels interesting. 333 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,760 I mean, if you look at video production for, you know, 334 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,240 digital native video production for YouTube, for example, is, 335 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,520 you know, the, it seems that there's a, there's a huge amount 336 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,320 of saturation across lots of different niches now there. 337 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,760 I mean, but podcasting it, it doesn't feel like it's got 338 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,800 anywhere near that yet. You know, if you've got a 339 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,880 genuinely great idea, it just seems there's a lot of space to 340 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,840 play within within particularly the audio. 341 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,560 You know, thinking from podcasting from an audio 342 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,840 perspective, it seems like there's much more place to play 343 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,400 than than video. Would you would you agree with 344 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,760 that? Well, again, I think that 345 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,400 probably goes back to the slight maturity of where the industry 346 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:29,240 is. I mean, I don't where there's 347 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,360 necessarily more space. I just think it's huge amounts 348 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,920 of opportunity. And I do think we're at a point 349 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,240 now with podcasting similar to YouTube, that it's not about 350 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,960 necessarily creating the biggest show or YouTube show or sort of 351 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,960 audio podcast in the world. It's about getting a sizable 352 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,160 audience or, or an audience that is a niche audience, but which 353 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,800 you, but which can have value, value for you. 354 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,160 And you know, I've definitely seen shows that don't 355 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,960 necessarily achieve huge audiences, but really achieve 356 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,360 really good revenues. Yeah, because they can go to an 357 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,040 advertiser and say if you want to reach people who are into, 358 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,560 you know, white sofas, I've got that audience for you. 359 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:06,079 Yeah. And that's really obviously the 360 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,119 opportunity that both YouTube and podcasting throw up in a way 361 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,960 that I think traditional broadcast doesn't. 362 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,400 And even the obviously the streamers, the streamers don't 363 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:14,079 either. Yeah. 364 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,960 So, you know, I think the barrier to entry is, is probably 365 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,800 one of the most important points that that I think you've made, 366 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,680 which is of course that is still relevant. 367 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,359 You know, if you've got a camera, you've got a good idea, 368 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,800 you've got a microphone, you've got a good idea, yeah, you can 369 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,280 make things happen still. Yeah. 370 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,600 So you were you were based in the States for a number of years 371 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,480 when you were running the business at Sony. 372 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,600 Obviously that is the biggest entertainment market in the 373 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,640 world both, you know, for video and for audio and obviously for 374 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,040 podcasts. So what did you learn in the 375 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:50,720 States about this sector that perhaps isn't being adopted here 376 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,720 Or we've got maybe you know, how far ahead is the US, ahead of 377 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,480 the UK and what do we still have to learn and what can we still 378 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,720 learn from the US business? Well, the US, well, from my 379 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,960 experience, the US is definitely ahead of the UK, but I think 380 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,720 everyone that's a sort of, you know, that's, that's, that's 381 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,600 something folks have heard for a long time here. 382 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,920 Certainly on the podcast front, that was my experience. 383 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,040 I mean, that was really why something else dived into 384 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,920 podcasting because we went out to the States. 385 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,440 I could see what was going on there and I felt they were two 386 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,120 or three years ahead of us and and we just needed to, if we 387 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,120 didn't jump on it some, somebody else would. 388 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,360 But when I was there, I could see that in a wider sort of 389 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:28,320 entertainment lens as well, which is the, I mean, it's just 390 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,120 some of the things you often hear about the states. 391 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,560 It's super entrepreneurial. There is that ability to raise 392 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,120 money that I think just doesn't quite happen to the same degree 393 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,000 here. And that allows someone who's 394 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,600 got a good idea or creator who's got a good idea or celebrity who 395 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,720 wants to get going, you know, creating their own content to go 396 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,880 out and raise some really good money to sort of make that make 397 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,360 that happen. I think there's a much greater 398 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:54,240 risk taking willingness. You know, I think we're still a 399 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,400 little bit cautious here. And that American attitude of 400 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,240 sort of looking up and think that I can dream for the stars, 401 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,000 which I know as Brits we often sort of laugh at a little bit, 402 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,720 is super commendable in many ways because because it does 403 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,720 allow people to be really ambitious in their thinking and 404 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,240 what they want to and what they want to do. 405 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,320 Yeah, there isn't this sort of the fear of failure that that we 406 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,440 seem to have in the Uki mean, I, I mean, obviously that's, you 407 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,480 know, that's that's a bit of a, a catch all statement. 408 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,960 There's a lot of people doing a lot of amazing work, But but it 409 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,120 doesn't seem to be is embedded in our psyche in in in London, 410 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:33,400 for example, does it than than than perhaps is you know, the 411 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,640 the ideas that are being bandied about in LA and and new. 412 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,640 Yeah, I think that's right. There's just there's just a bit 413 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,840 more cautious as look, I mean, as you said, that's not to say 414 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,200 there's not risk taking that goes on. 415 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,440 And let's not forget the UK is still one of the creative 416 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,360 hotbeds of the world. I mean, when you think about 417 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,760 this, this little island and how much creativity flows out of 418 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,840 this place, I actually think as a country, we don't trumpet that 419 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,680 enough that it, it, it's something really positive when 420 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,920 you look across the entertainment industries and, 421 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,280 and, and the music industry and gaming. 422 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,440 You know, filmmaking, all these different areas, we are leaders 423 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,440 in so many ways, and often we're just not. 424 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,440 We just don't shout about it enough. 425 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,600 And creator economy, now you. Know and the and the creator 426 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,360 economy I mean, you know you again, you definitely do see I 427 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,880 feel the creator economy what's happening in that space in the 428 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,280 states is a couple of years ahead of here. 429 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,200 You know, I'd like us to have 50 side men's not one and that's 430 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,960 what you that's what you see in the States. 431 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,080 And I think the other thing you definitely see in the States is 432 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:38,040 more traditional TV talent has understood the opportunity or 433 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,880 showbiz talent, really comedians and TV talent have understood 434 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,560 the opportunity to create their own content and then to build 435 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,720 entertainment ecosystems around that in terms of being able to 436 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:53,440 sell products and merch and subscriptions and, you know, get 437 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,760 people paying for content in lots of different ways, whether 438 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,680 whether that's through Patreon or Apple Podcasts or, or, you 439 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,840 know, YouTube. So, you know, you just see that, 440 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,920 that slight greater zeal for entrepreneurism, I think. 441 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,320 Yeah. And you know, contrasting that 442 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,560 in the UKI think we still have certainly a number of TV 443 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:16,680 producers that I still speak to. A lot of Indies are still hoping 444 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,120 that this whole, you know, that that things are going to come 445 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,600 back again in the way that they used to be like 5-6 years ago or 446 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,600 pretty certainly pre pandemic, which, you know, in my opinion, 447 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,160 it's just not going to happen. Perhaps a lot of the talent is 448 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,920 also waiting for that, you know, waiting for that as well. 449 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,120 So, you know, maybe there's a bit of a wake up call. 450 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,200 I think it's going to happen. I think with a lot of TV 451 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,560 producers that it's a case of, well, you know, things are not 452 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,520 coming back. You know, try new things, try, 453 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,040 you know, to just change your attitude to risk a little bit 454 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,680 more. Well, like, yeah, look, I mean, 455 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,320 look, I completely agree. And you know, the TV, the TV 456 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,600 world has changed significantly. Radio has changed significantly. 457 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,200 And that's not to say those mediums, those traditional 458 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,440 mediums don't have a place. Of course they do. 459 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,120 But the idea that it's going to be as it was, I I don't think is 460 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:10,880 true. And and yet, you know, if I was 461 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,520 ATV producer now, I'd be looking at the amount of opportunity 462 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,120 there is because of the consumption that's going on on 463 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:19,200 YouTube, because podcasting can give me a route in that doesn't 464 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,440 cost very much and allows me to take a few risks. 465 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,520 And I'd be thinking, will this can open up really fantastic new 466 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,280 doors for me that gets me away from that commissioning model. 467 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,560 And look, I mean, that's, that's slightly a route that something 468 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,440 else went down. For many years our business was 469 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,720 trying to get commissions with with, you know, with the BBC or 470 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:37,120 get. Brands. 471 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,560 Radio commissions, essentially. Yeah, radio commissions, little 472 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,680 bit of TV certainly online, you know online stuff, getting 473 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,600 brands to pay us to sort of make, make, make content. 474 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,040 And of course we were able to transform into an IP LED 475 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,760 business. And and when you can do that, 476 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,520 the value you can just build into your business just you know 477 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,920 explodes exponentially. So, so you know, certainly for 478 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,280 traditional TV producers, that's where my head would be going is 479 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,600 is sort of not to throw the baby out with the bath water. 480 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,880 There's still obviously some business to be chased there. 481 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,960 And and if you're a good TV producer, you're clearly going 482 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,280 to still get plenty of fantastic opportunity. 483 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,080 But I'll be looking at this as the additional thing that allows 484 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,960 me to become a broader multi content business than just ATV 485 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:16,960 producer. Yeah. 486 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,800 I mean, we, we've obviously seen some fantastic companion 487 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,640 podcasts like Tracers for example, and and a number of 488 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,760 others. So they're starting to appear as 489 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,360 their own TV shows and being played out in broadcast. 490 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,800 Do you see that building and building? 491 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,600 Because presumably you know, the brought a lot of the 492 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,200 broadcasters, their budgets are falling as the advertising is 493 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,600 going towards social and has gone towards social. 494 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,080 They've still got the same amount of hours to fill in terms 495 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,000 of schedules. There's more and more high 496 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:51,280 quality content being produced in terms of video podcasts that 497 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,680 can run on TVI mean, surely that is answering the, the the issues 498 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,680 that a lot of the broadcasters have about them, you know, 499 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,400 filling their hours with still great content. 500 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,640 That is, you know, that looks slightly different. 501 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,440 Like, like we're here. If you're watching on on 502 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,000 YouTube, you see, you know, we're we're here on sofas 503 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,760 talking with, with mikes in front of us. 504 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,160 But but I think people, because of the the different ways that 505 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,760 people are experiencing content through their YouTube app, for 506 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,160 example, at home, you know, they're they're becoming used to 507 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,320 watching a different type of TVI mean, do you see that as a big 508 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,640 growth area? You know the video podcasts 509 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,200 playing out on broadcast networks. 510 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,680 Well, I think, look, I think really what this is about is 511 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,080 fandom. And it's not necessarily about 512 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,720 filling hours or, or, or even the cost of production. 513 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,920 It's about looking at how you develop that, that fandom and 514 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,680 actually companion podcasts have been the very first dip in the 515 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:48,800 water. I mean, frankly, I don't think 516 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,440 the trait has gone far enough, right? 517 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,760 There's a massive, massive hit on the BBC. 518 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,680 I'll be looking at that and saying, well, hang on, OK, we've 519 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,120 got the, the sort of spin off, you know, companion show that, 520 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,000 that, that that's, that's happening. 521 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,440 But why don't we do a watch along podcast as well? 522 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,880 You know, what's our, what's our, our Google box version of, 523 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,200 of that where we can see fans reacting, you know, what's the, 524 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,280 what's the maybe additional layers of content we can offer 525 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,160 each day of the week whilst it's on that just develops that, 526 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,520 that, that fandom and, and, and builds that up. 527 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,680 What is the live show? You know, you know, actually, 528 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,480 maybe we should be taking it on the road and doing it at the O2, 529 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,560 you know, in front of 20,000 people because they would sell 530 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,040 that out, you know, instantly. So, so I think, but, but my 531 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,440 point being really is about that's, that's all about 532 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,480 different ways to feed the audience and build up that 533 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,000 fandom and community. And by doing that, that 534 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,320 obviously then turns on other revenue opportunities for you as 535 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,520 well. Yeah, no, it really is an 536 00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:49,480 exciting time because I think I think, you know, a lot of 537 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,000 traditional TV production companies, they've got all the 538 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,200 transferable skill sets and in many cases the the talent 539 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,880 relationships to be able to, as you said, you know, create a new 540 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,080 go, go, go into business with a, with a celebrity to create a new 541 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,720 show. You know, and, and they've got 542 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,920 all of those connections and the ability to, to, to create a 543 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,600 fantastic looking show. It's it's, it's I'm surprised 544 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,880 that there aren't more opportunities being picked. 545 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,480 Up. But the skill, I think the skill 546 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,680 that some of those companies still lack his agility, just 547 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,240 that ability to say, well, this is the way we used to do it and 548 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,800 we'd have a 200 person crew. And now we're going to do, I 549 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,160 mean, you know, we're here with one other person in the room and 550 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,840 that's how you're producing a great bit of visual and audio 551 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,960 content, right? So, you know, if that doesn't 552 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,360 frighten the life out of traditional TV producers, I 553 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:44,920 don't know what, what will. You know, the fact that that 554 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,840 you, you can do this and you can create something that can 555 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,960 hopefully earn you a little bit of money as well and, and get a 556 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,880 bit of advertising in, you know, throws up an opportunity. 557 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,000 So, so, so for those traditional TV production companies, I think 558 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,240 that agility and that entrepreneurism is really 559 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,840 important. It's also the ability to back 560 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,760 yourself to say, actually, I'm just going to launch some stuff 561 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,680 and see how it goes down with the audience. 562 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,560 And we'll, we'll tweak it and change it as we go along. 563 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,240 We'll figure it out as the as we get that feedback coming from 564 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,480 the audience, which obviously traditional TV doesn't allow you 565 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:14,720 to do. Yeah. 566 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,400 So where, where do you see next three years? 567 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,440 And it's it's AI know it's a long horizon, three years. 568 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,080 Where do you see the next three years going when it comes to 569 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:24,840 podcasting? Then where where we're going to 570 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,880 be in three years time? I think we're going to see some, 571 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,160 some much more developed revenue models. 572 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,600 I mean, look, the advertising model is, is very strong now and 573 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,520 is only growing. You know it, it really is. 574 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,000 There's a, there's a, there's a big movement now are. 575 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,360 We talking about, are you talking about brand funding 576 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:42,840 there or are you talking about purely? 577 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,320 Advertising yeah, yeah, I mean funnily enough the brand funded 578 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,120 model is is also growing pretty quickly. 579 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:52,000 I mean, certainly in in Sony days, you know, we were working 580 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,080 with brands like Rolex and Chanel who were spending 581 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,600 significant amounts of money for Sony, for Sony Music podcast to 582 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,840 create branded shows for those brands. 583 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,640 But I no, I am talking about the traditional advertising. 584 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,480 I think alongside that subscription is really, really 585 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,120 exciting. It throws up an opportunity that 586 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,320 that actually content often hasn't had with those micro 587 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,880 payments, because someone who's a subscriber is far more 588 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,960 valuable to you than a listener who you just advertise to. 589 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,400 Because obviously they're in every month, right? 590 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,240 And they're, and we all know from our own, our own 591 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,520 subscriptions, maybe every few years we suddenly look at it and 592 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,840 go, I'll cancel that. But but you're in and you know, 593 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,640 Patreon is now becoming a very significant player, is actually 594 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,880 starting to do some really interesting deals with content 595 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,240 providers to incentivize them to bring content to that platform. 596 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,360 YouTube obviously throws up huge opportunities. 597 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,840 Apple Podcasts and Spotify also do as well. 598 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,080 So, so I think the subscription piece, the advertising piece and 599 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,560 of course the derivative model we've seen even, you know, we've 600 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,400 seen podcasts in the UK playing to huge arenas and, and you 601 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,600 know, really putting in significant money on that side. 602 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,760 And that's only going to keep increasing as well, I think. 603 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,680 And then finally, Steve, tell us about what you can you tell us 604 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,320 about what you're going to be doing next. 605 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,800 I mean, you've, you've got January off. 606 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,960 You've told me that I have. You haven't told me anything 607 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,560 else, though. Any any clues about what your 608 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:11,760 next move might be? Yeah. 609 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,320 I mean, I mean, no, no, no, no great secret secret really. 610 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,800 I'm, I'm, I'm sort of aiming to work with a range of companies 611 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,520 now. You know, I've had 30 plus years 612 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,640 of running teams and running businesses and I had great fun 613 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,680 along the way, but it's quite tiring as well. 614 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,640 So, you know, and I, I feel like I've picked up a lot of 615 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,080 knowledge now with that experience in the states, 616 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,840 obviously taking a company to exit. 617 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,960 So I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to working with 618 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,840 a range of businesses. Some, some of those will be in 619 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,920 the podcast space, but a bunch of them will be in the wider 620 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,160 entertainment spaces. And also, I think, you know, 621 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,560 it's going to be businesses that are both sort of small, medium 622 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,440 businesses that, that, that are looking to, to, to go on that 623 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,080 journey through to exit, but also some larger ones that are 624 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,640 just trying to understand the, the content ecosystem a little 625 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,160 bit better. So yeah, so the plan is? 626 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,760 Consulting for a. Lot of different things. 627 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,440 Yeah, yeah. OK, fantastic. 628 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,200 Well, well, now it's time for Story of the Week. 629 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,520 We're going to go through Story of the Week, Hero of the Week, 630 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,720 and find out who or what you're going to tell to get in the bin. 631 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,920 Let's do it. All right, so first of all, 632 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,080 what's your story of the week? Story of the week, I think 633 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,760 actually very prescient. Some of the stuff we've been 634 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,920 chatting about was Global's acquisition of Gary Neville's 635 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,080 podcast business. I mean Gary Neville for those 636 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,800 who don't know. XX footballer, very famous 637 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,120 football and football pundit, but comes with a very large 638 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,720 video audience, the shows that that that his company make and 639 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,120 also an audio audience as well. Global is one of those more 640 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,160 traditional legacy media businesses and yet has clearly 641 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,960 shown a great hunger and aptitude to start to to sort of 642 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,520 pivot a little bit and get into this space. 643 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,000 You know, they bought the fellow studio and sort of influencer 644 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,560 based shows last year, which I thought was an interesting move. 645 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,160 And now adding this one on I think is super interesting. 646 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,960 So yeah, I think, I think that's, it's a significant story 647 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,160 and it touches on lots of things we've chatted about really, you 648 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,640 know, creatives making their own content or sort of celebs making 649 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,120 their own content, the ecosystem and you know, the fact that 650 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,400 look, you know what they bought, I think Gary Neville launched 651 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,040 those shows about 3 years ago. So you know, you think about 652 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,120 that acquisition really that's that's a pretty short time span. 653 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,920 Yeah. And it's a great time to buy 654 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,920 them just ahead of the World Cup, of course. 655 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,480 And we've also seen what go Hanger doing and a lot of deals 656 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,080 that they're doing, I mean, Netflix and everything. 657 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,360 So that's going to be it's going to be a lot of opportunities 658 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:26,880 next year around the World Cup, aren't it? 659 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,440 So yeah. OK, so that's your story of the 660 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,760 week. Gary Neville, Man United fan, 661 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,560 unfortunately, but sorry about that. 662 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,440 Manulated. No, I'm a Leeds fan. 663 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,520 Yeah, yeah. But anyway, Gary Neville is not 664 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,920 my favorite pundit. But anyway, he's a great 665 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,960 businessman. So how about your hero of the 666 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,080 week? Who are you going to shout out? 667 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,800 Here are the week I have to choose Claudia Winkleman because 668 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,040 obviously in the past week they announced about the chat show, 669 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,600 which I think everyone knew was coming. 670 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,200 Obviously the traitors is back with a, with a new season and 671 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,520 again is, you know, absolutely smashing it. 672 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,440 So I, you know, I, I'm frankly, I think, you know, you always 673 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,600 want to see success going to sort of really good people. 674 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,800 And I'm sure same as you have worked with lots and lots of 675 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,480 different names over the years. And I did have the the sort of 676 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,560 pleasure of working with her a little bit a while back. 677 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,240 And I've got to say she was absolutely delightful. 678 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,520 And so good for her, you know, great. 679 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,120 Just great to see all that happening for her. 680 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,560 Well, that's good to hear. You know, it's always that it's 681 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,960 always that seems to be more often the case when you're 682 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,320 talking about a celeb and then it's like they were a nightmare 683 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,200 to work with. But actually, that's great. 684 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,960 Great to hear that. You know, she's a great on 685 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,840 screen as she is off. And what about getting in the 686 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:35,760 bin? Who are you going to? 687 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,640 Who are you? Who or what are you going to 688 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,440 throw in the? Bin, I am going to put in the 689 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,880 bin Larry and David Ellison because again, you know, they're 690 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,560 obviously behind Paramount and trying to buy Warner Brothers 691 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,080 Discovery. And for those who who sort of 692 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,840 watched these things last week, the WBD board recommended they 693 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,880 turn down the offer from Paramount. 694 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,040 And I thought what was really interesting was when you read 695 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,360 what they what the board had to say to their shareholders. 696 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,320 If you read between the lines, what they're basically saying is 697 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,320 we don't believe they have the money to support this deal. 698 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,560 And when you think what that throws throws up in terms of 699 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,960 credibility and and character that that that raises some 700 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,040 pretty unfortunate question marks, I think. 701 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,760 And, you know, they're trying to be very aggressive in how they 702 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,680 can try and get that deal done. I think they are going to 703 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,840 struggle, struggle to do it, you know, unless Trump really swings 704 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,040 behind them and just blocks Netflix. 705 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,640 You know, it's got a way to go this this this whole journey 706 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,280 because of the regulatory stuff. But yeah, no, I think those two, 707 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,160 those two can go in the bin this week. 708 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,880 All right, OK, the Ellison's are getting in the bin. 709 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,680 Steve, thank you so much for joining me this week. 710 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,000 It's been great. Thank you. 711 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,800 I've wanted to have you on the show for ages. 712 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,880 So I'm really glad that we we could make it work. 713 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,080 So thank you for joining us and and listen all the best for 2026 714 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,800 with your with your new consultancy work. 715 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,480 Thank you, Justin. Well, look, it's been great 716 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,520 being here. Brilliant fun. 717 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:58,480 Thank you. Thank you. 718 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,760 Well, that's all for this week's show. 719 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,720 Telecast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. 720 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,240 We'll be back next week with another show. 721 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,120 In the meantime, stay safe.