Once people start listening to podcasts, they really start
listening to them go where the audiences are.
And so if I was starting a show now, I'd absolutely be saying it
has to have video from day one. It's not about necessarily
creating the biggest show or sort of audio podcast in the
world. It's about getting a sizeable
audience, but which can have value.
You know, if I was ATV producer now, I'd be looking at the
amount of opportunity there is because of the consumption
that's going on YouTube, because podcasting can give me a route
in that doesn't cost very much. We really are still at a very
early space and stage for this industry and this huge amounts
of opportunities still, still to go.
Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to another episode of
Telecast with our new set. So I'm delighted to welcome
Steve Ackerman, our guest this week.
One of the UK's most influential audio execs, known for building
something else into a leading force in radio, branded audio
and podcasts before its acquisition by Sony Music, where
Steve became Executive Vice President and Head of Global
Podcasts, overseeing international podcast strategy,
creative development and high profile talent partnerships.
Steve's career spans 2 decades of shaping audio IP development
and cross-platform storytelling, giving him a front row view of
how the sector's evolving. And when you look at the audio
landscape now and, and video podcasts, I mean, it's all
merging. It's all a really exciting
space. So first of all, Steve, welcome
to the show. Delighted that you're you're
joining. US thank you, Justin and and I
appreciate you making me a lot younger because I think it's 33
decades over 3 decades. So but but I'll take it.
It's good all. Right.
Fantastic. Well, well, listen, you know,
you're obviously super well known in, in the US, in the UK
podcasting space and your, your time with Sony's just finished,
doesn't it? Has just finished two two weeks
ago. Right, OK.
So, you know, really thrilled that you can join us because
there's there's so much knowledge that you've got of
this, you know, coming from really a sort of pure radio
background, right? I mean, tell, tell us a little
bit about your career story. First of all, I mean, we were
talking just off camera and you, you said you started it.
Was it whips cross radio was it was your very first Whips.
Cross Hospital radio when I was still at school, my mum and dad
used to drop drop me down on Monday night to go and to go and
help. But yeah, so, so radio was the
deep background, started as a as a radio DJ and a journalist for
the fledgling Radio 5, and then, you know, became a producer and
then the exec producer and went that sort of route.
And then obviously eventually you suddenly find you're
managing teams and running businesses and you're not in the
studio at all. And there's something else.
Journey was was one where, you know, we started within radio,
but you couldn't scale a business within radio.
And even though we became really, you know, really serious
players in that space, that just wasn't the global market to
really scale a business in that space.
So, so we really evolved into a business that had always had
audio very much of its heart, but had a big social media
component was doing a lot of online video and TV.
And you know, I think I said you before the recording back in the
day, no one quite understood what we were.
We were a multi content, you know, multi platform business,
which obviously is exactly what many, many production companies
are now. But back then no one could quite
understand this. And then of course, when
podcasting came along, because we had this huge expertise in
the audio, we were able to just jump on that really quickly and,
and, and sort of seize that opportunity.
Yeah. I mean, when was it when when
podcasting started to develop and become, you know, something
that was that really excited you can you can you think back to
when what was it about podcasting immediately that that
you saw an opportunity? Well, I think it was the obvious
thing of, of the on demandness of it.
And, you know, we were already at a point where TV viewing was
clearly going that way. And I think it just felt pretty
obvious that the, if you have the choice to listen to whatever
you want to listen to, why would you just turn on the radio and
hope you find something? And it's not that different from
me, from the exact mentality of I think what we've seen happen
on on TV. And then alongside that, it was
also the fact that it really, I could see that for the first
time it was going to allow audio to be able to create IP and have
an IP market in the same way that TV production had been able
to do and to be able to create ideas that could travel around
the world in the same way that TV had been able to do.
So it was those components really that stood out for me as
really being transformative. Yeah.
And and so something else grew gives gives us a sense of the
scale that the business grew to before you.
You sold to Sony and, and, and give us a sense of, you know,
what, what that deal was like and what that allowed you to go
on to, to to achieve. Yeah, well, we, I mean, we, you
know, we got to a pretty decent size.
We, we were turning over sort of healthy 88 figure, you know,
healthy 88 figure amount. We were obviously profitable.
And then the, the, the, the Sony deal sort of came in two parts
because we had a very traditional or, or sort of well
trodden M and a route where we first all got into bed with them
from a production perspective. So they started funding all of
our podcasts and they did this with five or six companies
around the world. We we were one of two, they were
doing it within the UK. So they were outsourcing their
production to you? Well.
So they didn't have any internal production.
It was very much a, a music label approach, which was we're
going to fund all these other companies and we'll Co own the
IP that comes out of those shows.
So they, they shared ownership in our shows.
They didn't have any ownership of our business.
And after about 18 months, it was obvious the relationship was
going very well. We were really succeeding for
them. We were producing some really
good hit hit shows, some some some large numbers from an
audience perspective. And then they obviously said,
well, we'd, we'd like to buy you now.
So, so that was great. And, and the reason that they
wanted to bias, which obviously we didn't know at the time of
the acquisition was there was this aim to create a global
podcast division and really cement something else as the
sort of central component within that.
So, so that happened. And part of that deal was the
chance for me to go and work in New York and be based over there
and build up the team in the States as well as maintain the
team here, which, you know, which I did.
Yeah. And it's interesting that you
mentioned it was, it was the music side of the business of
side of Sony that acquired you rather than the pictures
television side of it. Whereas obviously we're now
seeing and we were seeing a huge amount of mergers happening and
acquisitions like global are going out and buying obviously
fellow studios and, and other deals that they've done
recently. It's kind of really interesting
that you see, we see more and more radio, traditional radio
players getting into sort of video LED formats and, and
podcast shows. I mean, and, and I suppose that
was just the back then the type, you know, radio and music
essentially were, were quite, you know, were quite
interlinked, weren't they? And traditionally rather than
that, this necessarily being as an opportunity for the TV part,
part of the business. Well, I think the driver then,
and it's still relevant now, was that what podcast has done is
it's eaten into share of air against music.
So in other words, obviously if you're listening to lots of
podcasts, your music consumption traditionally goes down.
And you can see that pattern of behaviour happening in almost
every market. And what you see with podcast
listening is once people start listening to podcasts, they
really start listening to them. And you know, very quickly they,
they can become a, a person who might consume 5 or 6 podcasts a
week, depending on what their commute is or so the sort of
listening can be very heavy. Of course, you know, we're not
in a dissimilar position now, even with the video piece of
the, of the pie, which is it's another, it's another form of
trying to gain, trying to gain share.
And you can see how all the major streamers are really
starting to take podcasting seriously.
In fact, that, you know, today, the day we're recording is the
day that Netflix have launched podcasts on Netflix now with the
shows that they bought in from Spotify and I heart and, and,
and, and other folks. And I'm sure this is only the
beginning. So it really becomes it becomes
an equation of, you know, what share are you trying to grab and
how are you trying to trying to grab it?
And I think, you know, we're absolutely at the point now, but
we certainly were when the deal was done.
That podcasting is, you know, is an important part of that
equation. Yeah.
I mean, it's really exciting time, isn't it, when you think
about the the lowering of the barriers to entry right now when
it comes to be able to create a global piece of IP, what that
can start as a podcast and essentially would would
generally, I suppose, start as AI mean well, here's here's a
question. Knowing what you know now, if
you were to start a brand new podcast show, how would you do
that? Would you would you start that
as a, you know, video has been in the the the key important
component of it or his audio? Just give us a sense of if you
were to start a show now what? What would it look like?
Well, I think it's not, it's definitely not either or in
terms of video or audio. I think both of them have to
come together. I mean, exactly as you're doing,
right? Go where the audiences are.
And so if I was starting a show now, I'd absolutely be saying it
has to have video from day one. It's got to have a really well
thought through an intentional approach to social because that
has to build on what's happening.
And and sort of obviously that's, that's how we're going
to go and try and reach people. But audio has to be a really
important part of the of the mix.
And I think certainly the past sort of maybe 18 months, two
years, there's been, there's been, there's been a narrative
going on that sort of audio podcasting is dead.
And it's all about video now. And it just isn't.
I mean, the audience numbers just don't show that in any way
at all. And in fact, when you look at
research, what you see is that it's not one audience eating the
lunch of another audience. They're both compatible with
each other, obviously. I mean, it is the classic thing.
Just go where audiences are. And some people prefer to watch
their podcast, some people prefer to to listen to them.
Many. People, in many cases, it's a
separate audience, it's a. Separate audience.
Exactly that. And many times you find
audiences will switch depending on what it is they're doing.
I mean, I've done that with your show.
Sometimes I listen to it and sometimes I've watched it on, on
the telly. So, you know, it just depends on
on that sort of audience behaviour pattern I think.
Yeah, and there's there's a number.
I mean, Jamie E is, I'm a big fan of what Jamie E does.
And I know he's, he's very, I think he's very, he's very keen
on audio becoming, being audio only if you like and, and, and a
number of podcasts that perhaps do try and do both, but
potentially waters down the audio because of what they're
trying to achieve in video. I mean, that's quite a difficult
balance to achieve, I think, You know, I mean, do you?
I mean do. You well, I think again, I think
it's about being cognizant of the audience.
Look, I think it's certainly true.
You know, at Sony, we developed a very successful true crime
channel called the Binge and clearly that's narrative
storytelling. And at the moment, you know, I
don't think AI is quite there yet to support that from a video
storytelling perspective. I think it's going to come, but
as a medium in audio works absolutely brilliantly.
And of course we were targeting that to be an audio product for
the audience. I think what what Jamie has in
mind is where, you know, I think we we've seen some podcasts
launched where, you know, there's jokes that happen on the
screen and of course, if you're listening, you just have no idea
what's going on. I mean, actually, you know, I
can think of shows like diverse CEO that are sort of slightly
guilty of that. Some, some sometimes where, you
know, as as fantastic as that show is, sometimes Stephen's
talking to the audience member and they're using things to
demonstrate the point they're making.
And as an audio listener, you just have no idea what's going
on. And I think that's more down to
the production of, of, of, you know, well, OK, can the host be
a bit more, a bit more cognizant that there is an audio audience
as well? It's no different from what what
used to happen on the radio. Explain to the audience, draw
the pictures, you know, describe what's going on.
It doesn't have to actually take away from the video.
So again, it's not an either or thing, you know, I, I, I don't
subscribe to that. But if you back to the idea of
if you were going to start a new podcast now, would it also need
to have the ability for it to go live as well to be a live show
potentially or you know, something that that that can
eventually be the video aspect of it can be potentially
licensed to to broadcasters, you know, at a later point in time.
I mean this is are these all key components of what a modern
podcasts should should shooting? With the key components of where
a modern podcast can get to, but I don't think that's the same as
when you're launching and starting out.
I think the most important point to be thinking about is who's
the audience? Who am I trying to reach and
how? How can I have that appeal to
them? How can I build that community?
Because if you can build the audience, then of course all
those other things follow. Yeah, the live show can come or
there might be some interest from a broadcast or you can get
the merch range going or, or frankly, you can just launch
products off the back of the podcast.
Have nothing to do with the podcast.
Yeah, but the content has to be strong in the 1st place.
And that means having an appeal to an audience and, and building
a community. And I think and, and, and
actually podcasting and, and, and you know, content on YouTube
that I think is the significant thing that those mediums offer
that traditional broadcast obviously can't because it's a
one way conversation. Yeah, and that's something that
we we talk about a lot on this show is about building
communities around content, you know, which, yeah, as as you
say, podcasting is, has really shown that the the ability to
do. So where do you think, you know,
in terms of the lives of podcasts?
So you were there right the very beginning and, and harnessed,
you know, the the medium and, and, and have been very
successful through it. We're we're at a stage now, as
you say, you know, that podcast is starting to land on
streamers. We're starting to see Channel 4
licensing a lot of their shows onto Spotify, for example, you
know, deals going in all different directions.
Where do you think we are in terms of the, the maturity and
the development of the podcast industry?
Because we, we, it feels like it's become gone through a
number of boom years now video is playing more of a, more of a
role in it. It that seems to me to bring
much more opportunity. And again, that barrier to entry
for a lot of people coming in who may have broadcast
experience is even lower. I mean, where, where, where do
you see the, the, the industry on it's sort of journey right
now? It's the, the opportunity is, is
genuinely fantastic. And you know, this is an, I feel
this is another moment where it's a very sort of, it's a very
exciting inflection point. It's easy to forget 10 years ago
there wasn't a podcast industry. I mean, there really wasn't in
the States or here, you know, so, so this is a baby bit of the
entertainment ecosystem. It's a really new bit.
And as you say, it's already been through a few iterations.
There's been a boom, there's definitely been a, you know, a
slight retrenchment and now it's coming back again.
You know, I think it's a very exciting moment kind of for some
of the points you've just raised.
First of all, it's broken out of just being an audio medium.
And as I keep saying, it's not either or, you know it, it can
be both and that's and that's fine.
But but also when you look at the opportunities for sort of
regular revenue, some of those are still only just developing
at the moment. You know, some of the more
traditional advertising is still in place and is now motoring
along. And we're seeing a lot of blue
chip clients come in now to replace those original
Squarespace in the, you know, direct marketing sort of brands
who who were there in the early days of podcasting.
But but we're seeing fairly significant changes happening
now with Spotify, with YouTube in, in terms of how they're
going to handle advertising that can sit within podcasts.
And that's going to open up even more revenue streams for
podcasters alongside subscription.
And then all the derivative things you talked about live and
merchandising and all the other opportunities.
So All in all, if I was coming into podcasting now, I'd be
super excited because because we really are still at a very early
space and stage for this industry and this huge amounts
of opportunities still, still to go.
Yeah, I feel it feels interesting.
I mean, if you look at video production for, you know,
digital native video production for YouTube, for example, is,
you know, the, it seems that there's a, there's a huge amount
of saturation across lots of different niches now there.
I mean, but podcasting it, it doesn't feel like it's got
anywhere near that yet. You know, if you've got a
genuinely great idea, it just seems there's a lot of space to
play within within particularly the audio.
You know, thinking from podcasting from an audio
perspective, it seems like there's much more place to play
than than video. Would you would you agree with
that? Well, again, I think that
probably goes back to the slight maturity of where the industry
is. I mean, I don't where there's
necessarily more space. I just think it's huge amounts
of opportunity. And I do think we're at a point
now with podcasting similar to YouTube, that it's not about
necessarily creating the biggest show or YouTube show or sort of
audio podcast in the world. It's about getting a sizable
audience or, or an audience that is a niche audience, but which
you, but which can have value, value for you.
And you know, I've definitely seen shows that don't
necessarily achieve huge audiences, but really achieve
really good revenues. Yeah, because they can go to an
advertiser and say if you want to reach people who are into,
you know, white sofas, I've got that audience for you.
Yeah. And that's really obviously the
opportunity that both YouTube and podcasting throw up in a way
that I think traditional broadcast doesn't.
And even the obviously the streamers, the streamers don't
either. Yeah.
So, you know, I think the barrier to entry is, is probably
one of the most important points that that I think you've made,
which is of course that is still relevant.
You know, if you've got a camera, you've got a good idea,
you've got a microphone, you've got a good idea, yeah, you can
make things happen still. Yeah.
So you were you were based in the States for a number of years
when you were running the business at Sony.
Obviously that is the biggest entertainment market in the
world both, you know, for video and for audio and obviously for
podcasts. So what did you learn in the
States about this sector that perhaps isn't being adopted here
Or we've got maybe you know, how far ahead is the US, ahead of
the UK and what do we still have to learn and what can we still
learn from the US business? Well, the US, well, from my
experience, the US is definitely ahead of the UK, but I think
everyone that's a sort of, you know, that's, that's, that's
something folks have heard for a long time here.
Certainly on the podcast front, that was my experience.
I mean, that was really why something else dived into
podcasting because we went out to the States.
I could see what was going on there and I felt they were two
or three years ahead of us and and we just needed to, if we
didn't jump on it some, somebody else would.
But when I was there, I could see that in a wider sort of
entertainment lens as well, which is the, I mean, it's just
some of the things you often hear about the states.
It's super entrepreneurial. There is that ability to raise
money that I think just doesn't quite happen to the same degree
here. And that allows someone who's
got a good idea or creator who's got a good idea or celebrity who
wants to get going, you know, creating their own content to go
out and raise some really good money to sort of make that make
that happen. I think there's a much greater
risk taking willingness. You know, I think we're still a
little bit cautious here. And that American attitude of
sort of looking up and think that I can dream for the stars,
which I know as Brits we often sort of laugh at a little bit,
is super commendable in many ways because because it does
allow people to be really ambitious in their thinking and
what they want to and what they want to do.
Yeah, there isn't this sort of the fear of failure that that we
seem to have in the Uki mean, I, I mean, obviously that's, you
know, that's that's a bit of a, a catch all statement.
There's a lot of people doing a lot of amazing work, But but it
doesn't seem to be is embedded in our psyche in in in London,
for example, does it than than than perhaps is you know, the
the ideas that are being bandied about in LA and and new.
Yeah, I think that's right. There's just there's just a bit
more cautious as look, I mean, as you said, that's not to say
there's not risk taking that goes on.
And let's not forget the UK is still one of the creative
hotbeds of the world. I mean, when you think about
this, this little island and how much creativity flows out of
this place, I actually think as a country, we don't trumpet that
enough that it, it, it's something really positive when
you look across the entertainment industries and,
and, and the music industry and gaming.
You know, filmmaking, all these different areas, we are leaders
in so many ways, and often we're just not.
We just don't shout about it enough.
And creator economy, now you. Know and the and the creator
economy I mean, you know you again, you definitely do see I
feel the creator economy what's happening in that space in the
states is a couple of years ahead of here.
You know, I'd like us to have 50 side men's not one and that's
what you that's what you see in the States.
And I think the other thing you definitely see in the States is
more traditional TV talent has understood the opportunity or
showbiz talent, really comedians and TV talent have understood
the opportunity to create their own content and then to build
entertainment ecosystems around that in terms of being able to
sell products and merch and subscriptions and, you know, get
people paying for content in lots of different ways, whether
whether that's through Patreon or Apple Podcasts or, or, you
know, YouTube. So, you know, you just see that,
that slight greater zeal for entrepreneurism, I think.
Yeah. And you know, contrasting that
in the UKI think we still have certainly a number of TV
producers that I still speak to. A lot of Indies are still hoping
that this whole, you know, that that things are going to come
back again in the way that they used to be like 5-6 years ago or
pretty certainly pre pandemic, which, you know, in my opinion,
it's just not going to happen. Perhaps a lot of the talent is
also waiting for that, you know, waiting for that as well.
So, you know, maybe there's a bit of a wake up call.
I think it's going to happen. I think with a lot of TV
producers that it's a case of, well, you know, things are not
coming back. You know, try new things, try,
you know, to just change your attitude to risk a little bit
more. Well, like, yeah, look, I mean,
look, I completely agree. And you know, the TV, the TV
world has changed significantly. Radio has changed significantly.
And that's not to say those mediums, those traditional
mediums don't have a place. Of course they do.
But the idea that it's going to be as it was, I I don't think is
true. And and yet, you know, if I was
ATV producer now, I'd be looking at the amount of opportunity
there is because of the consumption that's going on on
YouTube, because podcasting can give me a route in that doesn't
cost very much and allows me to take a few risks.
And I'd be thinking, will this can open up really fantastic new
doors for me that gets me away from that commissioning model.
And look, I mean, that's, that's slightly a route that something
else went down. For many years our business was
trying to get commissions with with, you know, with the BBC or
get. Brands.
Radio commissions, essentially. Yeah, radio commissions, little
bit of TV certainly online, you know online stuff, getting
brands to pay us to sort of make, make, make content.
And of course we were able to transform into an IP LED
business. And and when you can do that,
the value you can just build into your business just you know
explodes exponentially. So, so you know, certainly for
traditional TV producers, that's where my head would be going is
is sort of not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
There's still obviously some business to be chased there.
And and if you're a good TV producer, you're clearly going
to still get plenty of fantastic opportunity.
But I'll be looking at this as the additional thing that allows
me to become a broader multi content business than just ATV
producer. Yeah.
I mean, we, we've obviously seen some fantastic companion
podcasts like Tracers for example, and and a number of
others. So they're starting to appear as
their own TV shows and being played out in broadcast.
Do you see that building and building?
Because presumably you know, the brought a lot of the
broadcasters, their budgets are falling as the advertising is
going towards social and has gone towards social.
They've still got the same amount of hours to fill in terms
of schedules. There's more and more high
quality content being produced in terms of video podcasts that
can run on TVI mean, surely that is answering the, the the issues
that a lot of the broadcasters have about them, you know,
filling their hours with still great content.
That is, you know, that looks slightly different.
Like, like we're here. If you're watching on on
YouTube, you see, you know, we're we're here on sofas
talking with, with mikes in front of us.
But but I think people, because of the the different ways that
people are experiencing content through their YouTube app, for
example, at home, you know, they're they're becoming used to
watching a different type of TVI mean, do you see that as a big
growth area? You know the video podcasts
playing out on broadcast networks.
Well, I think, look, I think really what this is about is
fandom. And it's not necessarily about
filling hours or, or, or even the cost of production.
It's about looking at how you develop that, that fandom and
actually companion podcasts have been the very first dip in the
water. I mean, frankly, I don't think
the trait has gone far enough, right?
There's a massive, massive hit on the BBC.
I'll be looking at that and saying, well, hang on, OK, we've
got the, the sort of spin off, you know, companion show that,
that, that that's, that's happening.
But why don't we do a watch along podcast as well?
You know, what's our, what's our, our Google box version of,
of that where we can see fans reacting, you know, what's the,
what's the maybe additional layers of content we can offer
each day of the week whilst it's on that just develops that,
that, that fandom and, and, and builds that up.
What is the live show? You know, you know, actually,
maybe we should be taking it on the road and doing it at the O2,
you know, in front of 20,000 people because they would sell
that out, you know, instantly. So, so I think, but, but my
point being really is about that's, that's all about
different ways to feed the audience and build up that
fandom and community. And by doing that, that
obviously then turns on other revenue opportunities for you as
well. Yeah, no, it really is an
exciting time because I think I think, you know, a lot of
traditional TV production companies, they've got all the
transferable skill sets and in many cases the the talent
relationships to be able to, as you said, you know, create a new
go, go, go into business with a, with a celebrity to create a new
show. You know, and, and they've got
all of those connections and the ability to, to, to create a
fantastic looking show. It's it's, it's I'm surprised
that there aren't more opportunities being picked.
Up. But the skill, I think the skill
that some of those companies still lack his agility, just
that ability to say, well, this is the way we used to do it and
we'd have a 200 person crew. And now we're going to do, I
mean, you know, we're here with one other person in the room and
that's how you're producing a great bit of visual and audio
content, right? So, you know, if that doesn't
frighten the life out of traditional TV producers, I
don't know what, what will. You know, the fact that that
you, you can do this and you can create something that can
hopefully earn you a little bit of money as well and, and get a
bit of advertising in, you know, throws up an opportunity.
So, so, so for those traditional TV production companies, I think
that agility and that entrepreneurism is really
important. It's also the ability to back
yourself to say, actually, I'm just going to launch some stuff
and see how it goes down with the audience.
And we'll, we'll tweak it and change it as we go along.
We'll figure it out as the as we get that feedback coming from
the audience, which obviously traditional TV doesn't allow you
to do. Yeah.
So where, where do you see next three years?
And it's it's AI know it's a long horizon, three years.
Where do you see the next three years going when it comes to
podcasting? Then where where we're going to
be in three years time? I think we're going to see some,
some much more developed revenue models.
I mean, look, the advertising model is, is very strong now and
is only growing. You know it, it really is.
There's a, there's a, there's a big movement now are.
We talking about, are you talking about brand funding
there or are you talking about purely?
Advertising yeah, yeah, I mean funnily enough the brand funded
model is is also growing pretty quickly.
I mean, certainly in in Sony days, you know, we were working
with brands like Rolex and Chanel who were spending
significant amounts of money for Sony, for Sony Music podcast to
create branded shows for those brands.
But I no, I am talking about the traditional advertising.
I think alongside that subscription is really, really
exciting. It throws up an opportunity that
that actually content often hasn't had with those micro
payments, because someone who's a subscriber is far more
valuable to you than a listener who you just advertise to.
Because obviously they're in every month, right?
And they're, and we all know from our own, our own
subscriptions, maybe every few years we suddenly look at it and
go, I'll cancel that. But but you're in and you know,
Patreon is now becoming a very significant player, is actually
starting to do some really interesting deals with content
providers to incentivize them to bring content to that platform.
YouTube obviously throws up huge opportunities.
Apple Podcasts and Spotify also do as well.
So, so I think the subscription piece, the advertising piece and
of course the derivative model we've seen even, you know, we've
seen podcasts in the UK playing to huge arenas and, and you
know, really putting in significant money on that side.
And that's only going to keep increasing as well, I think.
And then finally, Steve, tell us about what you can you tell us
about what you're going to be doing next.
I mean, you've, you've got January off.
You've told me that I have. You haven't told me anything
else, though. Any any clues about what your
next move might be? Yeah.
I mean, I mean, no, no, no, no great secret secret really.
I'm, I'm, I'm sort of aiming to work with a range of companies
now. You know, I've had 30 plus years
of running teams and running businesses and I had great fun
along the way, but it's quite tiring as well.
So, you know, and I, I feel like I've picked up a lot of
knowledge now with that experience in the states,
obviously taking a company to exit.
So I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to working with
a range of businesses. Some, some of those will be in
the podcast space, but a bunch of them will be in the wider
entertainment spaces. And also, I think, you know,
it's going to be businesses that are both sort of small, medium
businesses that, that, that are looking to, to, to go on that
journey through to exit, but also some larger ones that are
just trying to understand the, the content ecosystem a little
bit better. So yeah, so the plan is?
Consulting for a. Lot of different things.
Yeah, yeah. OK, fantastic.
Well, well, now it's time for Story of the Week.
We're going to go through Story of the Week, Hero of the Week,
and find out who or what you're going to tell to get in the bin.
Let's do it. All right, so first of all,
what's your story of the week? Story of the week, I think
actually very prescient. Some of the stuff we've been
chatting about was Global's acquisition of Gary Neville's
podcast business. I mean Gary Neville for those
who don't know. XX footballer, very famous
football and football pundit, but comes with a very large
video audience, the shows that that that his company make and
also an audio audience as well. Global is one of those more
traditional legacy media businesses and yet has clearly
shown a great hunger and aptitude to start to to sort of
pivot a little bit and get into this space.
You know, they bought the fellow studio and sort of influencer
based shows last year, which I thought was an interesting move.
And now adding this one on I think is super interesting.
So yeah, I think, I think that's, it's a significant story
and it touches on lots of things we've chatted about really, you
know, creatives making their own content or sort of celebs making
their own content, the ecosystem and you know, the fact that
look, you know what they bought, I think Gary Neville launched
those shows about 3 years ago. So you know, you think about
that acquisition really that's that's a pretty short time span.
Yeah. And it's a great time to buy
them just ahead of the World Cup, of course.
And we've also seen what go Hanger doing and a lot of deals
that they're doing, I mean, Netflix and everything.
So that's going to be it's going to be a lot of opportunities
next year around the World Cup, aren't it?
So yeah. OK, so that's your story of the
week. Gary Neville, Man United fan,
unfortunately, but sorry about that.
Manulated. No, I'm a Leeds fan.
Yeah, yeah. But anyway, Gary Neville is not
my favorite pundit. But anyway, he's a great
businessman. So how about your hero of the
week? Who are you going to shout out?
Here are the week I have to choose Claudia Winkleman because
obviously in the past week they announced about the chat show,
which I think everyone knew was coming.
Obviously the traitors is back with a, with a new season and
again is, you know, absolutely smashing it.
So I, you know, I, I'm frankly, I think, you know, you always
want to see success going to sort of really good people.
And I'm sure same as you have worked with lots and lots of
different names over the years. And I did have the the sort of
pleasure of working with her a little bit a while back.
And I've got to say she was absolutely delightful.
And so good for her, you know, great.
Just great to see all that happening for her.
Well, that's good to hear. You know, it's always that it's
always that seems to be more often the case when you're
talking about a celeb and then it's like they were a nightmare
to work with. But actually, that's great.
Great to hear that. You know, she's a great on
screen as she is off. And what about getting in the
bin? Who are you going to?
Who are you? Who or what are you going to
throw in the? Bin, I am going to put in the
bin Larry and David Ellison because again, you know, they're
obviously behind Paramount and trying to buy Warner Brothers
Discovery. And for those who who sort of
watched these things last week, the WBD board recommended they
turn down the offer from Paramount.
And I thought what was really interesting was when you read
what they what the board had to say to their shareholders.
If you read between the lines, what they're basically saying is
we don't believe they have the money to support this deal.
And when you think what that throws throws up in terms of
credibility and and character that that that raises some
pretty unfortunate question marks, I think.
And, you know, they're trying to be very aggressive in how they
can try and get that deal done. I think they are going to
struggle, struggle to do it, you know, unless Trump really swings
behind them and just blocks Netflix.
You know, it's got a way to go this this this whole journey
because of the regulatory stuff. But yeah, no, I think those two,
those two can go in the bin this week.
All right, OK, the Ellison's are getting in the bin.
Steve, thank you so much for joining me this week.
It's been great. Thank you.
I've wanted to have you on the show for ages.
So I'm really glad that we we could make it work.
So thank you for joining us and and listen all the best for 2026
with your with your new consultancy work.
Thank you, Justin. Well, look, it's been great
being here. Brilliant fun.
Thank you. Thank you.
Well, that's all for this week's show.
Telecast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London.
We'll be back next week with another show.
In the meantime, stay safe.