1 00:00:12,070 --> 00:00:15,030 Welcome, fellow enthusiasts of technology and innovation, to 2 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:17,950 the last episode of the SAP Learning Insights podcast 3 00:00:17,950 --> 00:00:21,430 miniseries Texture. I'm really excited that we have 4 00:00:21,590 --> 00:00:25,910 a rather soft skills topic for the last episode, for which I'm 5 00:00:25,910 --> 00:00:29,310 having my guest, Nageshta Tarantzewski with me. 6 00:00:29,310 --> 00:00:33,080 She's the founder of Conscious You, who could rather explain it 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,440 better than you could. You give our listeners an 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,760 insight of who you are, what Conscious You is and what is 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,920 your driving motor for having this company. 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,760 Thank you Magdalena, it's great to be here as a guest. 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,040 So firstly, by background, I am a psychologist. 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,560 I've been working as a coach for the last 20-3 years, give or 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,160 take, and my company Conscious You, we are specialized in 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,120 facilitating collective transformation through, if you 15 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,920 want, scalable online coaching programs. 16 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,800 So we design learning journeys that interlock individual 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,880 consciousness development with collective learning and 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,520 collective action. Yeah. 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,640 And the motivation to do this work has actually some very 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,240 deep, long, long standing roots in my own family history. 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:29,040 So I come from a half German and half Slavian family. 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,840 So my grandfather was Russian, my grandmother was Polish, and I 23 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:37,080 was one of those children that grew up in a post war family 24 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:40,280 that it was long before your time of course, but you know, 25 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,640 the after effects of war and trauma reach far into the 26 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,520 present as as you may be aware of. 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,560 And at some point in my own life and struggle to become a happier 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,080 person, to begin to like myself, enjoy my life. 29 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,120 I did a lot of therapy. And after all of these 30 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,000 processes, I finally came to an understanding that if we want to 31 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,320 prevent trauma creating circumstances in the future, we 32 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,759 actually need to find a different way of being together 33 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,759 as human beings. So we need to learn to love 34 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,840 ourselves essentially so we can love others. 35 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,640 And that was, even though I am doing a lot of work with 36 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:19,920 organizations, the founding impulse for conscious you, 37 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,440 because I was always interested in how do you scale this kind of 38 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,760 work across many people at the same time rather than just doing 39 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,440 it one-on-one, which is what happens when you go to therapy 40 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,520 or see an executive coach. And that was the founding 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,640 impulse, if you want. OK, sounds great and clearly 42 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:43,080 shows that you are an amazing guest for the episode on 43 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,720 emotional intelligence and the question how will we work 44 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,840 together in the future? And even if you base it on 45 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,400 organizations because you can multiply it way better. 46 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,840 I think the conversation, especially in our work context 47 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,920 is so important because we somehow keep questioning 48 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:02,240 ourselves what does work actually mean in our life? 49 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:06,320 What value can it take, especially with this contrast of 50 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,600 this discussion with Gen. Z focusing a lot on what does 51 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,240 free time mean? How do I embed work within my 52 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,320 life? So this is what we will be 53 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,040 discussing today, how to be more conscious with each other, What 54 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,560 skills are necessary to work with each other? 55 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,920 Before we head into this, I wanted to ask you two more 56 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:29,160 questions upfront that are now directly related to our 57 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,000 discussion. We was talking upfront already 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:37,640 about you and conscious you, and I wanted to ask what opposite of 59 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,000 the idea of a team is a conscious tribe? 60 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,360 He was already introducing it to some extent, but could you 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,520 characterize this for our listeners as well? 62 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,240 Because your idea you were spreading it was sounding very 63 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,280 inspiring to me when I think of my team mates, for example. 64 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:57,960 Yeah, thank you for asking that, Michael. 65 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,120 Lena, so the tagline of my company Conscious You is 66 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,000 creating conscious tribes. I wouldn't necessarily say it's 67 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,040 an opposite to a team or an organization, but it could be a 68 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,280 possible future of a team or an organization. 69 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,920 So for me, you know, the the core of a team and hopefully of 70 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,400 most organizations is that we all work towards a more or less 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,120 defined shared outcome. Yeah, towards a shared goal, 72 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,320 something that we want to accomplish together. 73 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:34,400 And I do believe, especially given how much time each of us 74 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,800 spends at work, it takes up the majority of our daylight living 75 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,800 hours. I do think that there is a huge 76 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,760 benefit in creating collectives. So again, that can be a team, 77 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,640 that can be organization. I suppose it could also be your 78 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,200 relationship, right. So for me, the the idea of 79 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,640 healthy collectives or conscious collectives goes beyond work, it 80 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,320 integrates work. You could become a conscious 81 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,640 tribe and to me the characteristics of a conscious 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,320 tribe or the four main pillars of a conscious tribe if you 83 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,920 want. Firstly, everybody in this 84 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,880 collective is dedicated to doing in our work. 85 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:15,160 What that means is before I have understood myself and who I am, 86 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,720 how I take, how can I possibly understand you? 87 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,280 Yeah. So that the basis of human 88 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:23,560 interaction is actually self-awareness. 89 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,720 So this dedication to inner work I do think is essential. 90 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,160 The second part is to invest in deep relationships. 91 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,960 Again, because we spend so much time at work, there is a value 92 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,000 in having relationships that are deep enough to be called 93 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,240 friendships at work. And recent studies and in this 94 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,280 areas have also proven that the more we actually have friends at 95 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:48,320 work, the happier we usually feel. 96 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,560 Thirdly, I think it's about investing in seeing the bigger 97 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,480 picture. So if I work in a team, we're 98 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,280 not an island, right? So our team is embedded in a 99 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:00,600 department. The department is embedded in 100 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,720 the next hire structure that is embedded in the organization, 101 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,320 but the organization is also not an island. 102 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,160 The organization is embedded in a community, in a society, and 103 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,520 ultimately part of humanity on the planet. 104 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,800 And I do think to live consciously also means that I'm 105 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,480 aware of what are the different collectives that we are embedded 106 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,000 in and therefore also effect. So the choices that I make at 107 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:27,920 work, they have a ripple effect. Yeah. 108 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,760 So everything I do as a human being and as a team, it matters. 109 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,480 And to create awareness for that, I think is part of being a 110 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,120 conscious tribe. And then finally, I would say 111 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,080 the fourth pillar or ritual is living conscious rituals, which 112 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,800 means for me that we together decide on what are some 113 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,680 practices that we can do that strengthen our community, our 114 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,000 collective. So, for example, what you might 115 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,000 be familiar with is in a team, we might be doing a regular 116 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,760 check in that goes beyond just the focus of work into a more 117 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,880 personal relationship where I actually do care about. 118 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,200 How do you feel? How was your weekend? 119 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,120 How was your sick mother doing? But it could also be a different 120 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,920 kind of ritual that has more to do with looking at work 121 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,560 processes and evaluating these processes that we have today. 122 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,400 Make sense? Do they actually support us and 123 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,000 what we want to accomplish? So those are the four pillars in 124 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,440 our work, deep relationships, big picture and conscious 125 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,160 rituals. Especially the last one reminded 126 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,120 me of something that was flashing me when I first started 127 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,760 at SAP. It was another team I was in and 128 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,800 I was having a one-on-one with my manager to talk about our 129 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,640 work. And then there was another 130 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,080 specific one-on-one where we talked about achievements, 131 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,360 personal life, how you are feeling. 132 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,040 And this was something that amazed me so much because I was 133 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,080 coming from a mid sized company where everybody was kind of 134 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,000 cooking his own soup and the left hand didn't know really 135 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,080 what the right hand did. And then I was coming to a place 136 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,120 which was really open, which was built for teamwork. 137 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,520 And then they also went beyond just this thing that already 138 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,320 felt quite innovative to me, but also went on this personal 139 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,920 level. And this is something not 140 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,480 everybody has made for some. How I feel for this friendship 141 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,840 at work, but the idea that we're not just here to work and to be 142 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,000 this kind of machines is also sometimes a metaphor used is a 143 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,600 really great idea. Now I would like to start 144 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,520 getting into the conversation and of course within a team I 145 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,240 think of there's a team leader and there's me, for example, 146 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,480 another team member. What would you suggest? 147 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,280 Can an individual contribute into the atmosphere of the team 148 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:55,400 and is that somehow opposed to what a leader has to bring to 149 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,440 the team to create a good atmosphere where you are 150 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,800 friendly with each other, where you can be productive? 151 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,080 Maybe let me start with the leader, actually, right? 152 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,400 Because I do think in organizations today that are 153 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,080 still following a sort of more traditional model where you have 154 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,800 hierarchies where somebody is in the lead, there is a huge effect 155 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,680 that comes from role modelling. You know, and sometimes when I 156 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:22,040 work with leaders as my personal clients, I always tell them, 157 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,360 listen, this works like it works in your family with your 158 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,240 children. If you tell your children a 159 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,600 certain rule or something that you expect them to do, the only 160 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,600 thing they will watch out for is what you do. 161 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,560 So what you tell them is irrelevant. 162 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,160 And I'm not, I'm not equating employees as children just in 163 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,480 this metaphor to see that smart people and children are very 164 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,120 smart. They only look for what is the 165 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,040 proof in the pudding, right? What do I actually see somebody 166 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,880 else practice. So if your teacher tells you 167 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,520 something at school about, you know, it's important to to be 168 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,760 open and to be accepting of other people. 169 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,720 But then you see them completely losing their mind because they 170 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,280 keep getting interrupted. And, you know, when I was going 171 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,200 to school, they started throwing, throwing stuff at us, 172 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,080 right? Because that was still time and 173 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,920 day where those things are, I wouldn't say really acceptable, 174 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,040 but they were done, you know. Then of course, as a student, I 175 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,600 sit there and go, well, clearly that's OK. 176 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,600 If I have an anger tantrum to throw stuff at people, if I see 177 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,880 that in my family, same thing. I begin to observe what is the 178 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,000 culture that is accepted here. So for me, the first step when I 179 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,480 work with teams is always to really take a very honest look 180 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,800 at how is the leader of this team behaving and what is the 181 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,280 kind of culture that they are role modeling by their way of 182 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,680 being rather than by the slogans or language they use. 183 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:50,360 Now that being said, of course you have power as an employee as 184 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:55,440 well because most likely the majority of your interactions 185 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,360 during a normal work day are not necessarily with your team lead, 186 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,480 but they are also with just other colleagues on eye level, 187 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,840 right? So the question is, how are you 188 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,760 with these other people in your team? 189 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,240 How much attention do you have for them and do they have for 190 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,560 you? Are you really interested in 191 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,840 them as a person? And that doesn't necessarily 192 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,480 mean that they have to share the most intimate details about 193 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,040 their personal lives, but do you care about their well-being? 194 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,160 Do you pay credit to where credit is due? 195 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:28,960 Right. That's often a friction point in 196 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,680 teams that you go to somebody with a great idea. 197 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,400 Next thing you know in the next team meeting, they're presenting 198 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,760 your idea as if it was theirs, right? 199 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,240 That undermines trust. On the contrary, You know, let's 200 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,200 say you and I are team members, and I go into the next meeting 201 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,840 and I say, you know, I want to talk about something that 202 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,760 Magdalena told me the other day. I think it's an amazing idea she 203 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,080 had that builds trust. Yeah. 204 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,960 So am I able to champion you with your ideas? 205 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,800 And do I trust that this will somehow also benefit me? 206 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,840 And finally, I would say, do I allow you and other members of 207 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,280 our team to support me because we are a very social species. 208 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,840 So if you have the feeling you can do something that actually 209 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,280 helps me, it's usually a deeply satisfying experience for you. 210 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,400 So those are the things that you can do as a normal team member. 211 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,000 Sorry, I just had a thought coming up. 212 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,960 I don't know if I've ever shared this, but I'm studying sociology 213 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,920 and history and politics together and it's now time to 214 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,280 think of my bachelor's thesis. And I was thinking to write 215 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,240 something about the individualisation of society. 216 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:37,480 And I've seen such a clear contrast here where we 217 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,120 experience often time that people are so focused on their 218 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,120 own benefits and their own ones and their own freedom. 219 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,400 And I think your message is really great because it focuses 220 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,640 on what good society can bring when we are together. 221 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,120 So this was taken me a bit out of the conversation and reminded 222 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,000 me of this, which is why I think your idea and the coaching and 223 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,600 the work you do is really great for society in general before. 224 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,240 You go to the next question. I just want to really bring that 225 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,760 home point that you just, you know, the thought that just came 226 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,440 up for you because I think you're so spot on. 227 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,120 I do think that we have a development at least in the 228 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,920 Western world in terms of looking at development as if it 229 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,040 was an isolated action, right? So as if I can become 230 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,920 enlightened and then my world is going to be OK. 231 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,840 So if I just do enough inner work, then I'm going to be 232 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,120 happy. I'm going to love myself, I'm 233 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,160 going to be OK with me in the world. 234 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,880 And I don't think it works that way because we are a social 235 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,760 species. We don't exist in a vacuum. 236 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,080 And the collectors that we are part of to invest in those being 237 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,440 happy, I think is a huge factor of our well-being and 238 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,360 flourishing as a human species, not just for me as an 239 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,040 individual, but collectively. And that's why, you know, for 240 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,760 example, from a sociological viewpoint right now, the the 241 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,480 ever increasing gap between rich and poor I think is a problem 242 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,640 because we think if we only belong to the people who have 243 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,280 rather than the ones who have not will be OK. 244 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,520 But that world doesn't exist because ultimately we're all 245 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,920 sitting on the same, you know, cruise ship Like my, you know, 246 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,400 if I'm sitting in the deck chairs rather than sitting in 247 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,080 the engine room, I might notice much later when our collective 248 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,960 boat is sinking. But I'm going to drown anyway, 249 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,120 right? So I do think it's in our 250 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,200 self-interest to be interested in the well-being of other 251 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,120 people. Completely, totally. 252 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,520 Something else more current is the virtual workspace I was 253 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,440 thinking of. I personally work very much 254 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,800 virtual with my team members. They are sitting in other places 255 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,520 of the world, other places in Germany. 256 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,440 Coming together is sometimes really hard and so I was 257 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,400 thinking of collaboration and communication in regards to 258 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,320 that. What tips would you give or how 259 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,960 do you perceive communication and calibration within this 260 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,120 workspace? Because I think if you can talk 261 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,360 face to face, working together can be way much easier. 262 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,080 If you don't like each other, maybe it's nicer to work in the 263 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,960 virtual workspace then. But thinking that you want to be 264 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,160 productive and you want to be efficient together with your 265 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,360 team members, what would you state out to be important within 266 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,640 the virtual workspace? You know, again, Magdalene, I 267 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,160 think we can never forget that we are social animals, right? 268 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,160 I mean, we see ourselves as the crown of evolution. 269 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,640 I'm not entirely sure if that's even true, looking at the state 270 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,560 of the world right now. But what I can say for sure is 271 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,400 that there are impulses and instincts and needs in us that 272 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,600 are very much like in any other mammal. 273 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,200 So, therefore, the need to be connected, the need to belong, 274 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,120 the wish, the longing to be seen, to be received as a human 275 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,640 being is deeply, deeply ingrained in US. 276 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,000 And I think that one of the mistakes we have made in the 277 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,920 virtual world is to believe we somehow don't have to deal with 278 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,160 this need. Like, you know, we can work in a 279 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,560 virtual way and it can make us very efficient. 280 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,760 And all the fluff that we used to have, like hanging out at the 281 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,480 coffee machine, you know, smokers often reported that they 282 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,440 had some of their best conversations when they were 283 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,960 meeting outside to have a cigarette together. 284 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,640 Those random moments of social connection, that's something 285 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,040 that automatically falls away in a virtual space because when you 286 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,120 and I meet, we meet because of a specific task. 287 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,800 We meet because we have a meeting. 288 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,320 And then we feel, you know, now I'm done. 289 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,880 Now I want to get out of the space because my real life is 290 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,400 actually happening somewhere else. 291 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,840 And that I think is dangerous given how much time we are 292 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,480 increasingly spending online. So for example, one of the 293 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,840 principles that we have embedded in all of our programs at 294 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:00,760 Conscious You is to leverage our capacity and our wish for deep 295 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,960 and connected relationships in a virtual space. 296 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,760 So we give people, usually small groups of three people that 297 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,200 seems to be a pretty optimal size to have a deeper 298 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,560 conversation online. And we give them a script that 299 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,160 asks some questions that they would normally not talk to each 300 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,319 other about, even if they were seeing each other face to face, 301 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:25,079 by the way. Because it's not the kind of 302 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:28,319 conversation you would necessarily immediately have 303 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,000 unless you already had three beers with your teammates. 304 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,200 But we prompt them to dive into a deeper space directly by 305 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,680 giving them conversational clues. 306 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,200 And what we notice is that our human need for connection is so 307 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,800 strong that when we get the instructions to have a deep 308 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,800 conversation, we usually will. And it ends up being a magical 309 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,840 hour between three people that have never seen each other quite 310 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,040 in this way, right? So I think in a virtual space, 311 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:03,200 we need to pay more attention to how we facilitate social 312 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,080 interactions and true connection. 313 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,160 It's doable, but you need to do it more intentionally than in, 314 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,560 you know, quote UN quote, the real world. 315 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,240 Because more random things happen when we just happen to be 316 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,760 in the same space together in the virtual world. 317 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,520 We need to make them happen, OK? I'm sometimes a bit isolated 318 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,800 because I think of jobs like mine where a lot of things 319 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,160 happening virtual. Of course there are other 320 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,480 workspaces. For example, for nurses work in 321 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,880 hospitals, of course they're working physically, they're 322 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,160 they're not having computer, they're running around and 323 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,200 having their patients on the other end. 324 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,160 But for workplaces like mine, which can tend to be very 325 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,920 virtual, would you say for people like me, for example, 326 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,920 people working at SAP, that there can be some kind of loss 327 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,280 happening for humanity, for connections and communications? 328 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,000 What is your current observation on this? 329 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,640 Are we? Are we different people in 330 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,640 regards to interpersonal matters? 331 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:09,520 I think we are because what I mean, not that we really are at 332 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,600 the core, but I do believe our behaviour changes, right? 333 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:18,800 So in a virtual space like the one we're sharing right now, it 334 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,520 usually does feel a little bit like a barrier because I can see 335 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,720 less of you, right? So there's the barrier of not 336 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,120 having free access to your body language. 337 00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:30,800 I can only see you from the shoulders upwards. 338 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:36,080 So our systems of our, you know, unconscious systems of reading 339 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,480 other people, feeling other people, for most people, they 340 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,920 feel very limited. I even have colleagues who are 341 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,240 coaches and psychologists who hate working online because they 342 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,880 feel they don't have enough information about the person in 343 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,600 front of them. I do think that can be trained. 344 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,280 But again, our tendency is then to withdraw, right? 345 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,360 To only talk about the things that we we're here to talk 346 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,840 about. So we're staying much more on 347 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,440 task. Also because an online space, 348 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,680 you know, the moment we're more than two people, the free 349 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,240 flowing conversation becomes that much harder because 350 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,680 technology doesn't fully cover that yet, right? 351 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,520 We cut into each other and then one person started talking when 352 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,920 the other wasn't finished yet. And then you can't quite hear 353 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,880 And and then you have these awkward moments in online 354 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,920 meetings where either everybody talks at the same time or 355 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,480 everybody shuts up and then you don't know when to start. 356 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,520 So again, I do. Think we need a different 357 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,280 etiquette if you want in a virtual space that contradicts 358 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,000 this movement towards withdrawal and being more lonely. 359 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,240 And it is possible. And you know in our programs, 360 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,880 we're proving over and over again that it's quite easy 361 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,120 actually to create that. But you need to want it and you 362 00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:49,320 need to have a bit of a process for it. 363 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,880 And so, for example, during COVID, I was supporting an 364 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,800 organization in the UK called Camarados. 365 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,240 And their whole slogan is that the solution for our problems, 366 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,640 we each other, right? So that there is a human 367 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,360 component and that you can help me with a problem. 368 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,120 And what they do is they have a very physical movement in the 369 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,880 sense that they meet in physical spaces all over the UK and build 370 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,400 impromptu living rooms where they pull a sofa from somewhere, 371 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,680 they have a tea kettle, they sit down in a Market Square and they 372 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,760 facilitate open conversations, right? 373 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,600 There's no questions, there's no facilitator, there's no outcome. 374 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,680 You just have people meet. And then during COVID, all of 375 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,640 that was gone, of course, because nobody was allowed to be 376 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,080 in an open space anymore and meet strangers. 377 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,160 And Mev Potts, who is the founder of this movement, was 378 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,880 really desperate and wrote this heartbreaking post online about 379 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,320 sort of the end of the camarados movement and feeling so 380 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,640 helpless, not being able to connect with people in that way. 381 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,200 And then I contacted him and I had known him through a 382 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,000 conference and I said, listen, I know a lot about how to 383 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,080 facilitate online spaces. And I know it's not the same 384 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,960 thing as sitting on the sofa in the middle of the Market Square 385 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,680 and having a cup of tea with somebody. 386 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,320 But I think I can offer you the second best thing. 387 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,800 So we started facilitating online camarados meetings where 388 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,040 people from all over the world participated, you know, and I 389 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,240 gave even something that in the beginning he felt a bit strange 390 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,640 about because I said, I know that one of your principles in 391 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,520 one of those public living rooms is nobody's facilitating and 392 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,080 there are no questions to be answered. 393 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,560 You just allow a natural conversation to emerge. 394 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,720 However, in an online space, it's much easier if you actually 395 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,880 have a facilitator and if you give people a bit of structure 396 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,800 and some guiding questions. So one of the things you know, 397 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,200 that could be a conscious ritual for you and your colleagues, 398 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,520 Magdalena, is to have, you know, sort of a virtual drinks hang 399 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,800 out where everybody comes with, you know, whether that's an 400 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,280 actual alcoholic drink and a beer or, you know, a soft drink, 401 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,400 it doesn't matter. But you, you have these spaces 402 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,640 where you create smaller breakout rooms and one of you 403 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,200 brings a set of questions and then you each have a couple 404 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,600 minutes to share your responses before you dive into an open 405 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,200 conversation. That can be a wonderful way to 406 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,800 get to know each other, to feel less alone, to actually share 407 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,600 something about your lives that is not connected to work. 408 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,680 So again, it can be done, but it needs to be done with more 409 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,600 intentionality. That's that's reminding me of 410 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,440 something we have internally. The idea is really great. 411 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,600 I think it's called bubble matches. 412 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,000 I think where you are matched with other student colleagues 413 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,720 from other locations. I think this also had the COVID 414 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,240 background. And then you're like schedule 415 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,840 half an hour coffee break and you don't know each other. 416 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,200 You've never met before. Maximum you see what the other 417 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,760 person is belonging to team wise. 418 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,280 And then you're. Sitting there and for me, the 419 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,040 first time times were really strange situations because I'm 420 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,440 just ringing a random colleague to just have a coffee and then I 421 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,560 talk. You need to have a conversation 422 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,040 with that person. But then it, this was it. 423 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,160 Like it was just 30 minutes and it was done. 424 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,760 And I appreciated this so much when I had one colleague coming 425 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,760 in and he said, Hey, shall we do this again? 426 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,080 I like when when I'm having a good conversation, I like to do 427 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,320 a monthly one with this. And I thought what a wonderful 428 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,320 idea this is, this initiative thought a bit further. 429 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,440 And even though we are not working in the same team and and 430 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,280 we do totally different things, we can exchange about our 431 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,440 company how it's like for me here and puts them how it's like 432 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,120 for him and Waldorf. And I also get a different 433 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,600 picture of the company. And I really much like the 434 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,760 initiative itself, but also his idea taking it further. 435 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,880 We have several, I would say initiatives now even increasing 436 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,720 to come together. Most of the times they are 437 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,960 having a professional nature. But in general, I, I really 438 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,240 think this was necessary to come back together. 439 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,640 And I think especially for my location, it was really hard. 440 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,560 We had colleagues in the lead for creating events and no one 441 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,800 was coming. And then they kind of thought, 442 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,720 OK, what are we going to do now when people are coming and we 443 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,040 have this urge to come back together. 444 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:14,240 And now finally, I mean, we are 2024 now. 445 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,320 I would say kind of two years post this epidemic. 446 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,000 It was taken as quite a long time, I would say, to be really 447 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,600 in this. I wouldn't even say we're back 448 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,640 at where we've been before. We are still somehow on the way. 449 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,000 But you can see that a crisis, a break in how society used to 450 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,640 run, can take quite a long time to re cultivate. 451 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,360 Yes, absolutely. Beautiful that you've been doing 452 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:43,920 that. That's an amazing initiative. 453 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,360 I think also that's really great. 454 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,280 Now I want to come to a thing I think is really fundamental for 455 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,520 interpersonal exchange, for interpersonal mattress. 456 00:25:54,840 --> 00:26:00,040 I think the most important interpersonal skill, it's 457 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,160 empathy. And I think we're kind of losing 458 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,040 it. As I said, the increasing 459 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:11,320 individualization of society is kind of making us lose the 460 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,120 ability to be empathic with each other. 461 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,080 Would you say this can be learned again, this can be 462 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,600 trained again? And if you say yes, how so? 463 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,280 Yeah, my answer is very clearly yes, it can be trained. 464 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,560 I think empathy is a bit of a muscle and a mental and 465 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:36,000 emotional muscle. We need the right setting and 466 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,240 tasks. You know, as what I described 467 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,160 earlier, when in our programs, for example, we have these 468 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:46,160 little pod conversations of three people, we in some ways 469 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,400 create an artificial situation in which empathy can be 470 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,200 practiced. So we give people a set of 471 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,080 fairly personal questions and instructions of how do I 472 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,800 interact with you in this hour that we have together. 473 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,080 So for example, one of the ground rules that we have is 474 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,320 instead of jumping right into an open conversation, it's usually 475 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,560 a bit more structure than the beginning where one person gives 476 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,920 you a question and you have or a few questions and you have and 477 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,080 protected uninterrupted time where you speak about your 478 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,600 responses to this question. And then in the next step, the 479 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,560 people who were listening to you give you a resonance. 480 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,160 So they let you know, how did this land with me? 481 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,480 What was the effect of what you were sharing on me? 482 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,120 Because again, we are not an island. 483 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:38,080 Whatever you do has a ripple effect and it touches me in some 484 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,040 way, right? And it can be more on a 485 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,960 cognitive content level. It can be about the energy with 486 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,960 which you said something. It can be about the emotion that 487 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,400 I think I picked up. So I give you this resonance. 488 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,880 And by beginning to mirror each other and these processes, we do 489 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,360 become more empathic. We do notice more about what is 490 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:02,720 happening for our opposite. And the the second part of it 491 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,600 really is about creating conditions in which you have the 492 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,760 permission to listen without any expectation of you fixing 493 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,280 anything. Because I think one of the 494 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,280 natural ways or reasons why we limit our capacity for empathy 495 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,200 is because we're afraid that we might be responsible and that we 496 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,240 don't have the ability to actually help. 497 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,480 And then therefore it becomes easier to just not engage in the 498 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,200 1st place. You know, one drastic example I 499 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,120 think that most people can probably relate to is what 500 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:39,600 happens when you see a homeless person on the street. 501 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,000 Yeah. So is your tendency to look away 502 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,840 right away because you're like, I don't know what to do with 503 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,600 that. So I just not going to look. 504 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,440 Is your tendency to want to make it go away by giving that person 505 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,960 money and, you know, then turning around and leaving, or 506 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,840 do you sometimes allow yourself to engage in a conversation with 507 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,720 them in a moment of connection? And I do believe the reason why 508 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,800 most people don't do that is not because they're bad people, but 509 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,640 but but they're afraid that something might happen that 510 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,800 requires a response of them that they don't feel capable of. 511 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,520 So they walk away. And if we in organizations want 512 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,840 to train empathy, we have the same issue. 513 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,920 People are afraid that if you tell me something very personal 514 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,920 about yourself, you know, let's just imagine you had a parent 515 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,040 that wasn't doing well and you had a lot of care, 516 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,160 responsibility, and you're overwhelmed with the situation. 517 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,400 Then I feel helpless because I don't know how to help you. 518 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,040 And what we underestimate is the power of just listening. 519 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,840 So I think what organizations can do and teens can do to train 520 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,160 empathy, to make it very clear, yes, we're here to share, but 521 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,560 we're not here to fix. Yeah, I can be present with your 522 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,440 story. I can be present with your pain, 523 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,160 with your challenge, without taking responsibility for your 524 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,320 life. And I think that's one of the 525 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,920 often overlooked preconditions for training empathy is to take 526 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,040 away this perceived responsibility of, oh, and then 527 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,320 I need to do something about it. Also, I like the idea, again 528 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,800 stressing that it's also about listening. 529 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,640 I think we forget about this so many times. 530 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,920 I know that about myself. Sometimes I have a huge urge to 531 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,040 share as much of me and my perspective and my ideas as I 532 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,160 can, but sometimes I myself also in personal conversations, but 533 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,680 also I work forget the listening part, which is why I like this 534 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,400 idea so much. And also I think this is 535 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,160 benefiting the group of people I want to target with my next 536 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,680 question, introverts. In this overview of the 537 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,560 Mackenzie future skills, there's sociability stated and I 538 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,800 consider myself part of the introverted people. 539 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,280 Would you say, looking at the future, like I have the feeling 540 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,360 it's sometimes even expected in a lot of positions, that you are 541 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,040 kind of a performer, that you can sell yourself very well, 542 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,880 that you're good and hiding your your doubts, your anxieties, 543 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,440 your fears. Would you say introverted people 544 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,320 are kind of disadvantaged in this direction? 545 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,040 Maybe they are, and I think there is. 546 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,520 You know, there's a lot we can do to remedy that. 547 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,680 The first thing is to to realize what you just described. 548 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,720 Actually, in my view, two different levels of your 549 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,200 reality. I do believe you have the 550 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,680 capacity to learn certain skills, right? 551 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,000 So you could learn, for example, with an actor who trains you of 552 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,480 how to come across as more sociable, how to make small talk 553 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,640 even if something you don't enjoy, how to talk about in a 554 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,560 positive way about yourself. Those are things that can be 555 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,880 trained. However, you as an introvert, 556 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,960 you probably need more alone time to regenerate. 557 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,960 And that's one of the misunderstandings I feel often 558 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,240 in this world of when we use the terms introvert and extrovert 559 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,160 because it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be outgoing 560 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,120 in a social setting. It just means you need more time 561 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,640 than other people by yourself and with yourself to refuel your 562 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,080 batteries. Yeah. 563 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,240 So there's something about making sure that you get the 564 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,080 space. And that's something that first 565 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,640 and primarily you have to give yourself and you have to grant 566 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,520 yourself that you can recharge in appropriate amounts of time. 567 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,960 But also I think there is a path to getting that from other 568 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,560 people by communicating it more clearly. 569 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,720 Yeah. So the, the communication to me 570 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,360 is always, you know, at the core of getting our needs met. 571 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,120 If you tell, you know, let's just say I was your team lead 572 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,120 and you told me, Nadia, I'm, you know, more of an introvert. 573 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,760 I need more time for myself. I don't want to be constantly in 574 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,400 these social functions. It stresses me. 575 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,480 Then I can work with you. Then I can negotiate with you 576 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,000 and go, OK, I get that. So which of these social 577 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,880 functions would you be willing to participate in? 578 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,160 And where can we excuse you and say this is simply not how you 579 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:17,880 recharge? Yeah. 580 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,680 And where other people might get joy and connection out of an 581 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,320 event like that, perhaps for you, it's stressful. 582 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,280 So to to communicate what we need is one of those skills that 583 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,400 we need to train. And you know, for example, in 584 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,960 one of our programs that is called CU Connect, it's all 585 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,800 about communication. We actually have a task where 586 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,680 people have to write an instruction manual for 587 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,040 themselves. So they have to write down what 588 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,760 are the conditions under which I can be my best self. 589 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,360 If you want to use that terminology. 590 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,480 Where I thrive, where I feel I have best access to my resources 591 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,680 and I have the capacity to regenerate. 592 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,080 And this instruction manual is something that you can literally 593 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,320 give on other people because we always assume that people should 594 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,480 know by just looking at us. But, you know, the reality of it 595 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,280 is, Magdalena, most people are so busy looking at themselves 596 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,960 that they notice very little about you. 597 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,600 So to give them an instruction manual and say, this is how you 598 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,480 can get the best from me is actually very helpful. 599 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,120 And you don't have to, you know, if you get my instruction manual 600 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,520 and I get yours, we don't have to take a lot of stuff personal 601 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,480 anymore because suddenly we realize, oh, OK, that's just how 602 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,960 she functions. And I can learn that about you. 603 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,880 Also, I was thinking when we are at work, I like to separate that 604 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,360 sometimes the way I think for me personally, emotions are somehow 605 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,080 out of the work context. As you said, this is not 606 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:52,639 necessarily needed, but I see always rational thinking and 607 00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:58,280 emotional intelligence can be antagonizing to each other. 608 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,160 Would you say that they go together, that there is a way to 609 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:08,720 combine it and what is maybe also emotional intelligence in 610 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:14,040 the future or for the future of rational thinking relevant? 611 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,760 Yes, I I definitely think so. I do think that rational 612 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,800 thinking, as you called it, an emotional intelligence actually 613 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,000 complement each other a great deal. 614 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,040 I want to quote a, you know, very famous researchers name is 615 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,560 Ian Mcgilchrist, and he has done some research about the left 616 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,160 hemisphere of the brain and the right hemisphere of the brain. 617 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:42,280 The left hemisphere being very excellent at categorizing, at 618 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,600 putting things into small and organized boxes into what you 619 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,360 might call rational thinking, organizing knowledge. 620 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,240 Yeah, making distinctions. One thing is unlike the other 621 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,920 and that is helpful of course, because that helps us to do 622 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,320 pattern recognition in a structured way, find responses, 623 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,800 you know, due to yeah, use language in a coherent way. 624 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,360 All of these things connected to this side of our brain. 625 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:15,280 However, the right hand hemisphere is connected to a 626 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,120 more holistic way of perceiving the world. 627 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,000 So instead of separateness and distinctions, it's possible for 628 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,400 the right hemisphere to be integrative and see the world, 629 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,240 experience the world from a more holistic viewpoint, to see the 630 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,400 connections, to feel the connection. 631 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,200 So I, I would assume that emotional intelligence very 632 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,600 often is connected to the right hemisphere to our capacity to 633 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,480 see interconnectedness where our left hemisphere only sees 634 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,120 separation. And the healthy way forward for 635 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,920 me also, as you know, as a species on this planet would be 636 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,640 to engage our right hemispherical thinking, 637 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,760 perceiving of the world in a much bigger way because we've 638 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,400 been over dominated by left hemisphere thinking and decision 639 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,440 making. So they are interconnected, and 640 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,600 I don't think that only staying in sort of the rational mind 641 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,480 will provide the solutions that we need in the day and age we're 642 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,640 in. So emotional intelligence is 643 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,760 defined as the ability to perceive, to use, to understand, 644 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,640 manage and handle our emotions, right? 645 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,800 So that is a skill that I wish we would have been trained in 646 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,440 much earlier in life. I mean, there are luckily some 647 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,560 schools in kindergartens to do that, but many still don't. 648 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,880 And by the time, you know, we're in our mid 20s, it's often a 649 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,760 very conscious act that is needed to connect to these 650 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,560 different skills to be emotionally intelligent. 651 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,400 But the good news is that research has also shown that it 652 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,960 can be done. And I think if we have, you 653 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:04,360 know, sort of a cognitive ability to assess the world in a 654 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,680 rational way, combined with these inner skill sets of 655 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,800 perceiving emotions, using emotions, understanding 656 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,400 emotions, regulating our own emotions, something very 657 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,240 powerful can emerge from that place. 658 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:21,280 So I would definitely make a case in point for training 659 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,000 emotional intelligence. Absolutely. 660 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,600 I'm also very happy about the development. 661 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,760 Regarding early education. I don't know if we spoke about 662 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,720 that before, but I have children myself. 663 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,840 And the first thing that impressed me so much is that 664 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,520 already in kindergarten, you're sitting together with the 665 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,360 caretakers and you talk about your child and also about their 666 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,080 emotional development. So this was something flashing 667 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,840 me because I know my mom wasn't doing that for me. 668 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,720 And then the next thing is they was starting this assessment of 669 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:56,680 children again regarding their development in general. 670 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,720 And they also had one category for social emotional 671 00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:05,640 development. And when I seen this part on the 672 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,520 paper, I was like, yes, already a step forward in early 673 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,240 education. And I oftentimes come to this 674 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:20,320 little interactions because there's where our roots are are 675 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,840 planted, where we kind of think of ourselves as a tree or a 676 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,080 plant. Now where we come from is in our 677 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:34,400 childhood and a lot of tools we we get used to working with are 678 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,320 embedded in this time. And the way I grew up, something 679 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,200 like emotional intelligence would have been what a fancy 680 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,720 thing. No one needs this and I really 681 00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:47,200 appreciate that. It gets a lot of tension now. 682 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,400 So I would like to give a bit kind of tools to my listeners. 683 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,400 I like to have things structured and sorted out. 684 00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:00,840 What would be your go to essential skills on the way to 685 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,200 be emotional, intelligent? What to focus on? 686 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,640 Probably what we already talked about the capacity to train my 687 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,080 listening and the listening can be in two directions. 688 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,360 It can be inward, which means to really learn to differentiate 689 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,160 between the different voices that I have in my head and 690 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,320 realizing that I'm not just one person either, right? 691 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,760 I'm not just one consistent persona. 692 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,200 I have a multitude of different in ourselves, different in our 693 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,040 voices in me. And to learn to listen to those 694 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,640 paths, to learn to differentiate between them. 695 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,680 I think is a is a very powerful inner listening skill. 696 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,200 And then the outer listening is what you also talked about is 697 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,040 not just be in ascending mode the whole time, but to actually 698 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,480 push pause and be very deliberate about igniting my 699 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,680 curiosity about another person. And to really think about what 700 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,040 else could I ask them to know them better, to understand 701 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,680 better what the world looks like from their perspective. 702 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,840 And if you do these two things, training, you're listening 703 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:11,360 inside without taking everything for truth that you hear, by the 704 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,600 way, as well as training you're listening to the outside. 705 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,840 And again, also not taking everything as true that another 706 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,600 person says, but taking it as valid from that viewpoint, from 707 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,160 their perspective. I think it's a fantastic way to 708 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,560 step into being more emotionally intelligent. 709 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,760 That's what I liked a lot about what you shared today, the work 710 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,240 on yourself. Because I have this image now of 711 00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:38,600 this grey world and every person is stepping in his own thoughts 712 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,040 to place. ABC is doing the things he has 713 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,880 to do without really reflecting how he's feeling, how life is 714 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,040 like for them, what could do things better. 715 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,760 Because I think we are sometimes ending up in this another 716 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,280 metaphor and this piece and the wheel and we keep it running, 717 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,080 but we don't really reflect on our position there. 718 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,360 So this is what I liked really much. 719 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:06,000 And this is what I take mostly from this conversation that I 720 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,360 myself need to figure out what is there, what I need, and then 721 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,720 I can bring myself in a good shape into my work environment, 722 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,760 but also my personal and social environments. 723 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,120 To come now to a conclusion to our epilogue Echoes. 724 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,200 What is your most important message you want to send to our 725 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,640 listeners? What is your personal wish on 726 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:30,760 how we're going to work in the future? 727 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:37,080 My biggest personal wish is that we learn how to link this world 728 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,080 of inner work, which I believe is so important, with a 729 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,680 collective movement, with a collective, with a focus on the 730 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,960 collective. We're focusing on collective 731 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,400 well-being and flourishing. I don't think the two of them 732 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,560 can be separate. Should be separate for a long 733 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,160 time, and personally I've just returned from Japan and have 734 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,000 hence been exposed to a culture that has a completely different 735 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,920 focus from ours, where the collective is everything and the 736 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,480 individual counts for very little. 737 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,640 Of course that comes with its own set of challenges, but there 738 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,960 is something really quite amazing when you are in an 739 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,880 environment where collective well-being is at the front and 740 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,400 center of everyone's attention. So I do think we need to find a 741 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,280 way to marry these two worlds. Absolutely. 742 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,280 This is what I like to think of 10 times in my academic time, 743 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,520 how to bring the goods from traditional societies and the 744 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,600 goods from modern societies together. 745 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,960 I mean, there's tons of theories about it, but none couldn't have 746 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,760 made the magic in our world yet. So I think this has really taken 747 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,080 work from all of us. Thank you so much for being 748 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,600 here. I really, really think this is 749 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,800 an important matter also to bring into the professionals 750 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,920 fair. So I'm really happy to do this 751 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,960 with this podcast for our listeners to give you input on 752 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,080 how to prepare yourself for the job market and also bring a good 753 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,560 influence to the future job market. 754 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,560 Thank you so much for being here, sharing your insights, 755 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,000 sharing your expertise. It's been a true joy and it's 756 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,840 been truly a joy to explore the matter of future scales with all 757 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,360 of you together. So I hope you enjoyed this mini 758 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,960 series and goodbye at this point. 759 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,280 Thank you so much for having me, Matalina. 760 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,280 Good luck to everybody listening in.