Hello, my beautiful tower Bottoms.
I just wanted to give you the heads up.
The conversation in this episode does end somewhat abruptly.
It's only because our chat went so long I decided to break this
into two episodes. So next week will be Part 2.
But in the meantime, enjoy Part 1.
Yeah, more. Give it to me.
Yeah. Good morning, side of my Zach
Zowie Towers. Mike Levinson, you nailed.
You nailed. It I nailed it.
So I just got scolded by a listener in my podcast and I
don't even know them was on YouTube and they go this host is
so bad at introducing their guest.
I wind up having to Google who they are to see what they do.
And I like I'm not I'm not I'm not fit for this world,
especially when everyone can say things like that.
But I took it to heart. And so now I want to do like a
lengthy like who? Are you?
I'm the first lengthy intro. Yeah.
Wow. OK.
So you're tall. We know that if you run, run to
the YouTube because Mike is a certified hottie and talented,
talented girl. Did you do Broadway?
Thank you so much. No, I do.
I did Off Broadway. I just did my First off
Broadway. Ginger Twinsies.
Ginger Twinsies and. Please tell the folk.
Oh, so you're getting it. You're getting the intro who
bike is. No, it's but you are like a
musical theatre like Girly or I. Mean, I was a theatre kid.
I was a theatre kid. It was not a musical.
It was a straight, straight play with one sequence, one musical
sequence. But I was a theatre kid growing
up. I did not study theatre in
college. That's sort of a villain origin
story for me, 'cause I I started as an opera major.
Yeah, I started as an opera major.
In college. Yeah, now this is going to turn
into a whole thing. It's not the intro.
It's OK if you cry, you cry. OK, I, I, I tried to transfer
into musical theatre at Syracuse.
They did not accept me as an internal transfer.
So I did my other top choice, which was TV and film, which was
kind of like, it was like the rejections protection moment.
Ultimately, you were also like, fuck Opera.
I did not want to do opera. I was swindled into opera by my
voice teacher in high school. Because our brains weren't even
close to. No.
And I put also like he was like he was truly our God, Like he
was our cult leader. We were known as like Doctor
Nitschke, kids. His name is Doctor Nitschke.
That's. Crazy.
His house was Christmas year round.
Oh yeah, he would bid on Santa's mid voice lesson on eBay if you
were paying and he'd be like, he'd be like hold on, Michael.
Also, he had the craziest voice ever.
It was like it's like, hello Zach, it's three O 4:00 PM on a
Tuesday and I'm calling to. I'm going to go out on a limb
and say he touched people. He never touched us.
Are you sure? He never touched us, but he did
look like a Bond villain. I mean you.
Know Mr. Ratburn from Arthur. Oh my God, I was like, no, I'm
pulling up a cartoon right now, but.
It is the. It's the.
I would say the equivalent of that.
Being locked into Christmas is a very eerie trait.
He would like he would deviate into Easter, but it was kind of
like if it wasn't Easter, like 4th of July, it was Christmas.
I know and all like literally all around the house.
But he basically was like, you're not doing musical theatre
BFA. You are doing opera because like
you don't want to mess up your Dick.
You don't want to mess up your trajectory.
You need to perfect your instrument.
Do that, which once again, it actually kind of jail broke me.
It it freed me because I didn't go down the BFA track, which I
think broke a lot of my friends. If you see a lot of broken
people who did the BFA. Yeah, most of them are waiting
tables at Applebee's. Yeah, so this kind of forced me
into the other path of breaking my brain by doing the like LA
assistant track, which we can get into.
But like, I am a theatre kid at heart.
But like I I, I adjusted my first professional.
Did it OK in Ginger Twins. The concept is it's two people
who are not twins. It is the IT is the IT is the
Nancy Meyer's Parent Trap. But the most farce, a full
version of that story possible, which is that is, it is a
straight white male and a CIS black woman playing identical
twins. And you were the straight white
male. No, it's one of the
understudies. Oh incredible, incredible
actually did not. I covered basically every part
besides the twins which is honestly the I covered 5 parts
which was especially never doing it professionally.
That was tough. Challenging.
But I kind of just had to be like, it's OK.
You got this. I'm here and I have no choice.
Wow. And it's it's supposed to be one
of the funniest shows ever. It really was.
It was sensational. Is it done?
It? It is.
That's why I'm back. That is why I'm on this.
Podcast. So I'm looking for work.
Oh, OK, OK. Cool.
It is done. It ended.
It ended in November. OK, We were I, I kind of moved
to New York being like, who knows?
A Titanic lasted over a year and a half years.
Lasted years. Years and it's going like
Broadway now or West End Broadway it was.
West End and now it's Broadway. But I was like, I don't know,
you might never see me again. And then the show ended.
Wait, are you trying to? OK, so we know you're a theatre
girly. You were in TV and film.
Yeah, I got I moved out of here, started as an assistant and then
on my way into stand up by kind of realizing, oh, wait, I can
just like write my own music. I can write my own mini
musicals, which is just my like comedy songs and do that and
then perform. And then it's sort of like on my
own terms, even though it's. Immediate.
It's immediate, even though it's terrifying, and often times I
was so, so anxious and insecure about being the only person like
singing on the lineup, which actually turned out to be like,
people like viewed me as the breath of fresh air because even
if they didn't find it funny, I was doing something different.
But it's so funny. I most most of the time I think
it's received as funny, which is good.
Do you? Where's the best place?
Tower Bottoms? Those are the listeners can go
to find your work. I mean, my social is where I
post. Then I started posting my little
songs online, but monthly. I'm at Nico's Wine Bar in in
Atwater on the east side of LA. If you want to come see me,
Brendan Scannell and Courtney O'Donnell, we have to have you
on and your tower bottoms can come.
Please. We're ready 'cause you were so
funny when you did Stepsons a million years ago.
Oh, that was so you and Anne. I know.
Me and Anne. Who?
Your neighbor? Yeah, my best friend.
Crazy. But that's probably the best
place to see me 'cause I feel like I go up other random shows.
But like for now, that's and. Consistent Pretty recently, you
were the gay the gay jock who made Deborah Vance pass out the
gay. Jock, Thank you for making me
the gay, Jock. You're you're just the.
Gay guy Just the Gay just the. Gay guy, but you're you're
muscular. Sure.
Is that jock you would put me in Jock?
I don't know, Twunk. See, I was told I've graduated
past twunk into hunk, which I didn't realize.
Oh, hunk is. If hunk is on the table, then
yeah, hunk I. I didn't realize that was a term
though. I and I, I think that's also
terrible to like coin, like to take, to take on hunk, to be
like, yeah, I'm a hunk. Well, it's definitely not one of
the easier to you. You maybe can't say it yourself.
Someone has to say it. First.
Yeah, yeah. No, no.
I'm. Not.
Your words, not mine. I just used I'm just a twink.
I'm just a twink who started doing steroids.
How do you did you? No, not even steroids.
How do you feel about the categories that gay guys place
themselves in or are placed in? I mean, I think it's so
arbitrary because often times it's, I think you start first
from like almost a fetishized place of like I am into this
category. But then often times people are
people do not live up to that expectation of whatever they
are, the demon twink, the bear, the like Dom bear, whatever.
There's so many bears that I thought were going to top me and
then they wanted. To bottom.
They wanted me to top that. Yeah.
And I'm also, I'm, I am, I guess subverting form is like a top
fronting a top presenting bottom, which is my own plight.
That's my own plight. Is it?
Has it been a? It is especially being out and
wanting to meet people out off the apps as like.
And they see you. And they go, oh.
Yeah, it's all the, it's all the like 5-6 days looking up at me
being like. He could wreck me.
It's like you know what they the towel is the shoulder.
The shoulders will start to just like.
Oh, like that cat? The cat about.
Yeah, and I am like I am. I'm not in.
Not your fantasy, I'm your sister.
I'm your sister. Do you?
What if they were looking at you like I want to get my step stool
and mount that? I'm open.
But you don't like it. It's not like I'm not seeking
that out, but I'm also not against it.
I think when I'm out it, I don't know how you are.
I don't know what your what is your type?
It's ever expanding, that's. That's beautiful.
You know, you get older, you go, oh, it's not all it's tracked up
to be. You lower your standards.
I mean, literally I, no, I just go like it's honestly a sign
that my mind I think is opening more than it's closing.
And I was like, yeah, let's give this.
Just as your hole. Just as the hole expands and
contracts. I have a doula for my butt hole.
Yeah, I just like, yeah, I'm like, let's, let's try it.
I would say below 57 it becomes a logistical problem.
Sure, and I think 5/8 and above, it's really all about mindset.
There have been 59 tops that have felt like they were 6-7.
Do you know what I? Mean.
Yeah, it is a lot of essence. Essence it's I always say like,
do you feel tall? Because they're also tall guys
that feel short, like you know what I mean?
Like I don't, I feel like I feel shorter than 6/4.
Peter Bottom. Exactly.
I feel I'm also, I'm like, I'm the, you know, golden fever
puppy that knocks things over because I think I'm still tiny.
Yeah. But the lap dog?
But crushes I've never like, oh, a bear, that's what I'm going
for. I'm also similar, like I'm not
looking for a specific category. I think the category can quickly
lump you in. But I do find it fascinating how
I guess like minded, like minded categorized people find each
other and they they can stick together.
I know bears that sort of stay with their bears.
They understand the plight, yes, the plight of the very I almost.
Feel like gay guys. It's more about like, I don't
know if you feel this way. It's like groups of gay guys.
Often I look around and I'm like, yeah, you all probably
find each other subconsciously hot.
Maybe you've also said it to each other, but it's like you
are surrounding yourself with people that you find to be a
similar. Oh yeah, you're like, yeah.
Where I looked at my, I looked at my like a circle, and I was
like, you know what? In a different world, yeah.
My friends are beautiful. I'm like, I truly am platonic
with all of them. I don't know how you are with.
That's an. Interesting thing too, we.
Can talk about this 'cause I'm very much I have friends,
separate churches. You do not have genitalia.
If you're my, if you're like a sister, 'cause I'll immediately
I'll call you a sister. I think that's a good, that's a
good way to really make it clear.
Yeah, next to a buddy. Hey, bud.
Hey. Bud.
Hey, sis. Yeah, hey, girl.
I I just, I'm like, I'd rather, it's more important to me that
you're my sister and not that we're bumping butts, Sure.
Or a Dick in my butt, even if they're you know, and I don't
know. It's complicated.
Of course there's this traction. You can I can eternal sunshine
my mind and just not think about it that way.
Yeah. I mean, I think if you actually
have a friend who that attraction that I do want to
butt butts keeps coming. Maybe that's something you
should explore though. Has that happened to you?
Not in OK in a way, but maybe this is to your point what you
just said. You don't want to risk like
you're like, my friendship with this person is more important
than like a failed exposure. 'Cause I don't know how, I don't
know your history, but like for me, finding gay friends is like
a significantly hard like gay guys I really connect with in
like a true like history way. That's not just like we're at
the same parties. We're like, hey girl, it's like
we're actually able to get dinner and like hang out and.
Talk. That's so much more important to
me. How has it been hard for you?
I mean. These guys try to fuck you.
Everyone's just trying to. Fuck no.
I think I'm very feminine in my connections.
I'm very, I feel, I, I think I've mostly been friends with
women my whole life. And so I think that.
A girl's gay. Feeling taken care of
emotionally and I also like that as my first instinct is to take
care and maybe that invites a lot of crazy energy on the
female side. Yeah, and coined the term harem
of psychos for just earlier time in my life.
My hop is what she calls it, but just.
Psychos does start with AP. It does start with AP, don't
forget that. Wow.
But I think I welcome a certain energy of people who would cross
boundaries on the on the. Oh, sure, sure, sure on the.
Female side, female side, yes. And then that of course
translates into the gay side as well.
But I had to learn how to set. Up friends try to hook up with
you. No, no, no, I'm saying just they
would just cross boundaries by taking advantage of me.
Oh, oh, gotta gotta gotta. I mean, there were girls in
college that would be mad when I, like, stopped making out with
them at parties, like drunkenly. Like I got into fights with a
few girls. They were like, why won't you
make out with me tonight? I was like, 'cause I gay, 'cause
I'm gay. And you know this?
Yeah, this is don't take the crazy.
I just don't want to make out with you tonight.
Yeah, or technically ever. Technically ever, but sometimes
it this was fun. Yeah, you have soft lips.
You go your way, I'll go my way. But gay guys, I think guys are
still guys. I don't know.
That's how I've gay guys are still guys.
And so I think a lot of times it can be hard to find the gay guys
that feel also like girls, gays or feminine in their connection.
Sure. I guess it's also like the guy
thing, it's like you have to like, that's like exposure
therapy and that you have to like be around the guys multiple
times in multiple settings and really, 'cause I'm sure you have
your walls up and like both people have to like lower their
walls and be like, we're not flirting.
This is not sexual, you know. Yes, and I also my my own silly
little trauma. I had like a pretty intense like
best friend break up in college with like my gay best friend.
Over what can you say? It wasn't even like I like this
happened. It was just like, it was one of
those things of like, we just had this like massive falling
apart that like really shattered, like really shattered
me. And I think it took me a long
time to like, trust gay guys again, 'cause it, 'cause he at
that time was like the closest gay friend I'd ever closest
friend I'd ever had in that it was also very toxic.
And it wasn't one thing. It was like overtime.
It was overtime. We, I mean, it was also college.
We were getting drunk all the time.
That's such a, that's such a of course and you're trauma and
psychosis. You're spending the night.
You're doing everything. We're together.
I mean, it was like all of those things and like we both moved
out here the same time at post college.
And I think it was just this moment of he was like these
people don't necessarily want to be friends with you out here.
And if you make me choose between you and them, I'm going
to choose them. And so I moved out here being
like, OK, well, he doesn't be friends with me.
These people don't be friends with me.
I guess I'm on my own. Which actually was free.
It, it, it freed me of like, I'm needing to stay in my college
bubble because I think a lot of people can just stay in their
little bubbles moving to a big city.
So it freed me to find my own tribe elsewhere.
But like it I my walls were so closed off in so many ways.
I'm doing that again. No, even though I wanted it so
desperately. I was, I lived in Beverly Hills
for the first three years, like 20 minutes walking from Wijo.
So like I was going there, but I would just like I was so in my
head about making that connection again and then being
let down or being hurt the same way.
On top of them being so desperate for someone to like,
love me and want to taught me. In that order.
Love and then top, top and then
love I. Mean is there?
Is there a difference? The top is to love.
For those glorious 6 1/2 minutes.
But I I basically. Yeah.
So I think like I finally I I have finally accumulated, I
think the like the gay group I've always wanted out here.
Oh, good. I know.
Which has also been nice to come back.
I I was in New York and I had such a great time and I met so
many wonderful gay guys there. But like I kept on missing my.
Your. Crew.
My girl's here. I kept on missing them.
We just did a Joshua Tree trip where we did acid together and
we dressed up as Real Housewives of Salt Lake City 1.
Night on acid? No, no, that would.
That would be too. Scary.
This was that was the next night where we just did mushrooms.
But I, I kind of was like, wow, I made it.
I feel like I'm 31 and I, I always looked up as like a 22
year old. I looked up to like the 30 year
olds who had their crew and I was like, wow, 22 year old me.
I think would be really that would be really happy right now
to be like, oh, he, he did it. He found that.
Beautiful it. Is beautiful and we didn't.
And then we didn't fuck. There was no orgy.
Not this time. I'm not gonna.
Yeah, no, that's great. OK, Beautiful.
Check in. We'll come back to that.
Great. Introduction I.
Don't I think are are you happy user 928649312?
I don't know who it was but the comment.
Marsha. Yeah, I'm actually.
They're hopefully watching. Anyway, let's go back to the
beginning. This is a sex podcast about your
sexual journey. Do you remember your earliest
influences? Things that made you aware of
sex when you were like, younger? Yeah, I mean, this is going to
be a crazy story and I'm not into bestiality.
What a great, what a great intro.
But my first memory of like being aroused.
I don't know why I was watching the Scooby-doo movie, The live
action OK with. Len Descarte on.
That course, Sir Michelle Gellar.
Yeah, but it's not even Prince. Not Freddie Prince, not even
what's his name? Matthew Lillard.
Not even Matthew. Lillard, it's Scooby-doo.
Not even scooby-doo it was. I don't know how familiar you
are with the plot. One of the monsters.
It was Scrappy Doo, and Scrappy Doo starts sucking up the souls
of all the people and gets buff. It was the sequence of him
getting buff. That you were like, oh.
That literally like gave me my, it's like the earliest arousal I
remember as a child. And I think it had something to
do with the like he became so muscular and it was the like the
process of becoming, I think. I don't know why I was attracted
to that. I also, I think a lot of gay
guys, gay kids were fascinated and infatuated with like
transformation sequences. I was like, like Power Ranger,
like whatever. They would morph.
I would watch like Sailor Moon, the Sailor Moon transformations
over and over again. I was so obsessed with the like
sequence of transformation. I think it's a subconscious
thing, of course. Wow I've no one's said that to
me before but I love that. But as a theory.
I think it was the becoming the becoming muscular, the becoming
vascular. And also like, fabulous, it's
like magic. It is.
It's wish fulfillment too. And I think many twinks who
start their peptides and their steroids, they literally they,
they go from scrappy dude to King Kong big, scrappy big.
Scrappy. Don't.
Scrappy. Don't Scrappy Nasty.
My actually, you jogged a memory for me, one of my and we're very
far apart in age, but the mass. Not that far.
I'm 40. Oh, you look amazing.
Thank you The Mask, which is the Jim Carrey movie.
What's that? Who's he?
Okay, okay, so you're aware kind of?
I love the. Mask the bad guy, Yes, when he
had like the chiseled jaw like him as a thing.
And puts on when he puts on the. Yeah, I know.
That after, yeah, that. Chisel.
Little. Hot squid wordy.
Yes, yes, God, he was hot as a bad guy too.
He was which Why are we? Why are we something to the bad
boys? It's not just us.
OK, I'm trying to think from scribe because we're not we
can't just focus on scribe PD. When I like I would say I then I
think I repressed a lot of it. I did like, I think until like I
started watching porn and like the porn I started watching
should have been the dead giveaway 'cause I would only
watch straight porn with like truly.
And they must have been prosthetic monster cocks.
Like I'm talking like there's this one video I remember where
it's these two guys and it listed them as like 13 inch
penises. And this girl was like stroking
both of them. And like of course I was like,
yeah, the girl stroking them, but I was, she was like
invisible. She was truly.
You just saw like yeah, 2 Dicks. Like I saw 2 Dicks, I mean, and
so that's what I and then I found 2 Dick porn, which is I
maybe there's just one porn star who did this, but it was a guy
with two penises fucking both holes of a woman.
And I would I would go between the monster cock video and the
two Dick videos. So I guess it was a 2 to one
ratio thing. It was.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow.
Yeah, and I that that and I that's how I justified the like
straight. Sure.
Like I'm watching. I love porn.
I was a late bloomer too.
Like I didn't go trans. I didn't go, I didn't transition
this time until like starting freshman year of of high school.
When did you know though, that you were attracted to boys?
I mean, I probably knew then, but I just wouldn't.
Freshman year. I mean 8th grade I would say
when I really started but like I was masturbating and shooting
blanks. I wasn't even coming yet.
I. Didn't say.
Do you remember your first orgasm?
I remember being in the shower wanting so hard to come and I
climaxed but nothing came out. But did you feel good?
Did was it that? Is literally what it felt like.
It felt good, but I also was like, but I also was like
psychosomatic. I want to see something.
I was like, did I just. I think I just came because
also, like, I don't know how you were with boys and middle
school, but like, I was so desperate to be a part of the
like one of the boys. In the chat.
In the chat and so we were talking about, we were talking
about corn, we were talking about corn and studying, which
is what we called masturbating. Oh wow.
Maybe like, did you study last night?
Did you do your homework? You guys are brilliant for 8th
graders, you're brilliant. But we would like, we would
like, we would play truth or dare if one person wouldn't have
to go up. Like, we would all be like
watching a video and then going up and one person would go
upstairs and, like, jerk off in in theory, yeah, I never got
called up. Oh, I never got.
Called. You're never got called you up.
You're looking for something that looks like calm.
You're like. But so that weird, that's that
weird time where it's homoerotic and it's exploratory, but like
no one's really saying the thing.
Wow, what it is. And there's Okie Cookie, which
we never. I was unfortunately never in the
cool enough group to play Okie Cookie.
You're like, but I heard slow as possible.
You're like, Oh no, don't beat me.
Oh no, I don't want to eat this. Not this delicious frosted chips
Ahoy, you know. But we never, we never got my,
my, my friends. My friends never got there.
But there was. Cookie.
How do you spell cookie? How do I spell cookie?
Cookie cookie cookie. Didn't you say cookie Cookie?
Yeah, Okie cookie. Okie cookie.
I guess O OK, IE OK, I guess that's how you spell it.
Sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's
probably. Going to be the episode title,
that's why I asked. It could.
It could be regional too. It could be regional.
I'm from Chicago. Sure.
OK, Deep dish. Deep.
Dish deep dish is also a really good wait doing with a pizza.
Doing with a pizza. I'm just saying that's a good
idea for middle school. Boys shouldn't be talking.
About jerk on a jerk on a pizza. Yeah, deep.
Calling it deep dish. That's a lot.
Deep Dick.
Y'all do you like deep dish pizza?
I just. Kind of, yeah.
I look I'm I'm of the Tavern style.
Talk us through that. It's just thin crust.
It's like crackery thin, but it's not New York.
Style. Is Saint Louis, Oh I've had emos
emos. It's did you like it?
Sorry, sorry to my cousins and my aunt and uncle too.
That's. The cheese.
It's a no. That's like a really, It's a
regional, like, no, your palate. Like yeah, it sucks.
Like sucks to it, deforms to it. It's like a regional deformity
to appreciate that kind of what is it?
It's the most artificial cheese. No, it's just the cheese hybrid.
What's it called? Proval.
It's proval. It's provolone and mozzarella.
I think it's not. Right, it's not.
It's a cross breed. It's not.
It's not godly. Well, bitch, welcome to hell.
I ate it. I ate it and I didn't love it.
I liked the crust. I like the crockery, thin crust
and the sauce. But then I got to the cheese and
I was like, this isn't, this isn't.
Damn, OK, that's more for me. But I like deep dish.
I learned I used to really dislike it.
It's it's kind of crazy. It's a pie.
It is pie. It's just savory pie.
I will be brave and say I thought deep dish was like that
much dough. I thought we were looking at
like a fat thing of dough within the sauce on top.
I was. Like actually still thin.
It's pretty thin. Thin dough.
It's got like a thick back like. It does have baby got back.
She's got a, she's got big back. She's a big back.
But for me, I think it was I couldn't get past the like sauce
on top, which now sauce is my favorite part of pizza.
I do like sauce. But I think for a while I didn't
like vegetables of any kind, like tomato.
Yeah. So I just was like I looked at.
That that's like. I was like, no, that's that's a
salad. Yeah, I'm not touching that.
So I always got this, the thin, thin, thin Tavern style.
And then it's how it's cut, which is the square cut.
Yeah, that's Tavern. Oh, OK, That's also Saint Louis,
Yeah. Midwest.
So. Cookies.
Yeah, so. Yeah, you were shooting blanks.
I was shoot. I was shooting blanks.
Thinking about boys, but not really.
It was, it was I was so good at convincing myself that it wasn't
me thinking about boys, that I was like, 'cause I was like, no,
'cause the girl's there. I was like, I know it's the girl
servicing them. Yeah, it was that.
It was like said she was doing. That I'm not her to those.
Giant beautiful Dicks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I and I'm definitely not her with those long beautiful
extensions. And those big old titties.
Big old titties, I mean. Was the vibe of gay negative in
where you were growing? No, I grew up in the most
liberal bubble. I might my my parents best
friends were gay guys like I my they're like my second parents.
Looking back, were they hot? They were hot when they were
younger. Like there are pictures of them
and like I kind of look like one of them, OK.
So sadly, you think you're pretty.
Not we're not going to take it down, but but like he they were
very hot. They were like they met they met
literally the summer before the AIDS crisis.
Damn they their love. They've been together over down.
They've been together almost 50 years and they met this they
they literally met before the summer of the AIDS crisis and
like saved each other basically with their love.
It is the Yeah, they met at a leather bar, The Ramrod, which
is now a Jamba Juice. No.
Yeah, I remember Craig took me to New York and, like, walked me
by where they met, which is not a jam.
I just remember so clearly it was a Jamba Juice.
I was like, wow, that's so sad. That's crazy that.
RIP the ramrod. Bears used to come in there.
I know, but like Dushko was like and it's kind of and to back to
the hype thing, it's like it's kind of beautiful because Craig
tall bottom Dushko maybe he's 5857 top, like big, like he
bald, but like hairy. He used to be like beard, like
muscular little top. Wow, yeah.
Good for him. So, so like it was almost so
normalized, Gay was almost so normalized for me that it's like
I never had a conversation that it could be what?
Happened. Because it was just like, yeah,
it was, I was around them. I was around them and said, but
still the default is straight. So I just like I, but no one was
like, hey, you could be that. And you don't know, 'cause your
brain is like, is this what other people are feeling when
they watch this video? They're like, excited, like.
Everyone's watching this, everyone's into all of it.
Double dicked. Everyone's into all of it,
right? We're all into all.
We're all watching all. Of it.
No other guys now. 'Cause I would try to watch the
lesbian stuff and I just was like, well, no, this isn't
straight because there's no Dick.
You're like, this is gay. This is gay.
I'm not gay. I'm not gay.
So freshman year, so you're shooting blanks my.
My freshman year I started watching gay.
Then I started. I switched.
OK, now we're getting somewhere. Finally.
Do you remember your first orgasm with another person or
your first hook up with another person?
Well God I I had a girlfriend all of high school so I know
even. When you were watching gay porn.
So that's how I convinced myself.
I said well I'm getting vagina with her so I can watch.
She had sex. Gay porn.
But that wasn't until senior year.
OK, high school. But we we built up to sex.
Wow, yes. So was it when you guys hooked
up, were you just like, really getting through it, Like
grinning and burying it? It was the, I would say like the
hardest mental exercise of that because I'm not one of those.
I don't know if you are, I'm, I'm not one of those gay guys
that can get hard for anyone. No, my Dick is like a lie
detector. Test same litmus.
I'm like, we're not into this. Like her first hand job for me
was we were watching the Golden Globes next to my autistic twin
and she just like started stroking under a blanket.
You're kidding. And I had to excuse myself and
I'll be honest, I pretended, I pretended to come in the
bathroom and I went back and told her that I finished in the
bathroom because I was like, I can't do it next to I can't do
it next to Sam. And.
Then I told my friends the next day and they were like, what?
No, my, my, they're they were theater boys.
So. But I guess they said what?
No way. But they.
Yeah. So I like I kind of built this
Laura that that was like the first time I.
Is your twin identical or fraternal?
Fraternal. And then are they gay or
straight? He is I would say straight but
like I think his own neurodivergence has limited his
sexual. Got it, got it, got it, got it,
got it. Got.
It got it, really. Got it.
Date early. Yeah, it doesn't really explore
there, but I think he wants to be with a a woman.
Gotcha, but. Wow.
So you went in, so you had this like cool story.
But nothing happened. Right.
But also it made you look really like.
I looked hardcore. Yeah, you did.
But then of course my friends laughed me pretty quickly
because I'm stalling for a long time and by senior and by senior
year I kind of was like I was out of excuses.
So I. Had to get off the pod.
I got surgery my freshman year on my penis, which I was able to
milk for a long time. I, that's what.
She said. Come on.
And I wish she didn't. Can you say what?
Yeah, it was called a varicocele.
So I had basically what women have in their legs, the varicose
veins, the old women. I had that in my balls.
Oh yeah. So I always say the scales of
justice just were like unbalanced.
Like one of my balls just looked like that.
And so a doctor was like, hey, 'cause you're going to want to
have kids later with your wife. You this couldn't it's.
So true twin. You're going to this could
affect your fertility. So we're going to go in there
and we're just going to like tie them up and suck them up and
make it normal. And that happened in my freshman
year and like I was able to, I was I, she would be like, should
we go for a drive, which always meant let's go hook up and I
would send Olivia would be like, I don't know, my, it's kind of
hurts today. My very close my very close
vein. Needs you to be very far, very
far from me. But I, I, I was able to make it
until senior year basically. And I'll say I was like really
fine going down on her because I was like, as long as the
intention's not on me, I'm a giver.
OK, noted. Give her.
Give her bottom. But like as long as the
attention wasn't on me I was fine.
But like what? I just like I could not come.
I really just like couldn't. It took everything in me to like
find come True Blood was a very to.
Find come to. Find to come within me True
Blood was I think a huge like I would always try be trying to
think of True Blood which. Character Oh, Ryan Quanton.
Ryan Quanton. He was cut from stone.
Jason Stackhouse And then I remember reading that he just
like worked out outside. Like he didn't go to the gym.
He just like, climbed rocks and like.
What happened to him? Where did he go?
What? Happened to him.
And I mean, look Alexander Skarsgard too.
Also, what's his face of Sofia Virgara?
I mean really, honestly, to be honest, him all the way.
Joe Manchin, That's not it either.
Joe Manganiello. Maybe.
You're beautiful. There's no way of knowing.
And then the porn star. Do you know who this is?
Leo. Leo Giamatti I.
Don't think so. Are they a porn star in real
life? Yes, he was a porn star.
And he got to be a werewolf or no?
No, this is not on the show. This.
Was just the porn star just. Think of like he had like a he
was like Abu. I have to show you.
Maybe I'll recognize him. Beautiful like 10 inch Dick.
So you are still it sounds like a size queen.
Yes. You like a big old?
I need that, Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm 64.
I'm like. You got a lot of space to fill.
I literally think it is truly just ergonomical.
Like to to find the spot it just needs to go.
You need to go a little bit. You need to move some boxes out
of the way. It's.
Just what I it's, it's the gayest thing in the world.
But like that is what I like. No, it's fine.
I know how. Wait, how tall are you for the
people watching? 6465. 6465 in.
Between there. Wow and.
Leo Giamatti was like, I think he was like 63.
Have you ever hooked up with a porn star?
Unbeknownst to me, yes. Oh, and you found out in the
exit interview. No, I found out watching porn.
I was like, oh, I remember him. He was real.
He fucked me like a porn star. Does this guy look familiar?
No. Really.
And you're bottom too, right? Or verse what?
Do you I'm I've been in my side era for a bit.
OK, but I think God didn't make me a bottom.
But I'm also a squirmy bottom like a big old Dick.
Kind of freaks me out. Really.
I'd much rather like an average Dick so he can just go to town.
Wow. That's so fascinating to me,
'cause like it's, I'm not loose down there by any means.
But like a average feels like a finger probably in there.
It like a like. A little like, almost like
annoying. You're like, what is it?
What's going on? I.
Can sometimes like hurt honestly.
Interesting. OK.
And I also have, and so many big Dick guys have done this to me
where they're like, I swear it's like it's easier to take a big
Dick once you just like get through like the big, you know
what I mean? And maybe there is something to
it. No, I mean I lost my virginity
to like a nine inch Dick off of Craigslist.
Oh, my. Thank you for getting us back on
track. Yeah.
Wait, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
That was the most painful experience.
Before we get to that moment, unless it's moments after.
How old were you? Were you still dating the
girlfriend? No, this was like, so this, this
journey happened. We broke up, we had basically,
so we, it LED up to us finally losing our virginities to each
other. And that was finally the moment
where I was like and like, and throughout high school I was on
like gay teen, like I was on chat rooms and stuff.
Like I was like exploring a bit, but like.
Did you have gay.com or XY or Manhunt or?
But like 321 gay teen chat. No, no, I don't know.
That's what I would use, which I who the fuck knows.
I think it was mostly full of catfishes.
Great. What?
What's changed? Tell me what's changed.
Truly nothing. Yeah.
And then senior year, I had ran out of excuses.
We finally, like lost our virginities to each other.
And I just it was so hard just into I just like it was.
It took so much out of me. There's like, I don't think I
can do that again. I love her so much.
Like I was like, I wish I could. I wish it could be easy, but
it's not. You Nutter and you're like, that
took my entire life worse. I mean, I'm I'm not getting.
I had to like. I just always get freaked out
that I didn't hit record. We'll take the moment because I
my fly's been down. Oh my, run to the YouTube you
might have caught. US.
Of Mike's uneven balls. They're even now.
I'll be OK, I'll show you. I'll show you later.
But they're even now. So you're just like, this is it?
Took me 45 minutes to get hard. I have one of my songs is about
this. You're like.
Stop watching me. Literally she was like can I
help? And I literally said no.
You're just turning. Around I had to turn around from
her and like try to get hard and finally I was able to and it
lasted 2 minutes, 'cause look, God, God built it correct.
It does feel good. It feels great down there.
It's like a full slip and slide. It's awesome.
But the minute it ended I was like, I can never do that again.
Did you say that out loud? I wish, I wish I just did in
that moment, but no, I I had to, for some reason, wait until the
midnight premiere of Hunger Games.
The first Hunger Games. I didn't invite her, which is
the this is the worst. This is like the worst thing I
ever did at the time was I invited all my friends to a
midnight premiere of Hunger Games at the Cinemark in
Evanston. And I did not include my
girlfriend. And she was like, why didn't you
invite me? And I was, and I, I sure I came
up with some bad excuse. And then my friends were like,
Mike, if you're like, if you want to end this and you're not
happy, like you should just like RIP the Band-Aid off.
And so I, they took me into the emergency staircase, made me
call her on speakerphone and suggest that we go on a break.
And then a week later we broke up.
Wow. But a week after that, her best
friend all of high school, the opposite of me, a like wonderful
short king named John Katz professor's love to her and they
are now married with you're kidding second child on the way.
Oh, I love that. No, it's beautiful.
I love that. It's beautiful and it freed me
of like, honestly, it freed me. You're like, I did that.
Why? I was just like, you know what,
you ended up where you needed to be and I ended up where I needed
to be. And like when I finally came out
to her, I saw the, I saw it all click in the place where she was
like, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God.
Like it was never her. It was always me.
It was never her. She's perfect.
It was just always my own shit. So then I'm like, because this
is like beginning of grinder. So it's like it was like
Craigslist and Grinder at the same time.
And Craigslist. I posted ads.
Yeah, no, I did too. I posted ads with the headlines
Gay teen bottom. Gay virgin bottom.
You broke an. Athletic top to like pop cherry.
This was like all in my just my headline full on like face
picture just. Like no, I should be a ghost.
Oh I should be a ghost. Went over to a guy's place who
turned out to be like a 38 year old father and yeah, ginormous
penis. Did he?
Did he represent himself accurately when he sent?
He did luckily cause also that could have easily been like a
murder. Easy.
Door click close. No one knew where I was on the
ground. No one knew where I was going.
I took my family's minivan like no one knew where I was going.
Was it far? No, it's like 20 minutes away.
But I was like my obviously heart, Oh my God, pounding.
Do you still get do you still hook up?
I did. And do you still get nervous a
little bit? At this point I just get no.
I don't even get nervous. I'm just like the.
I noticed my heart rate going up.
If I'm real, if I'm like, this is like, if I'm really into them
and I'm like really hopeful that it's as good as oh.
OK, you know, mine just like generalized anxiety, it's like
pop up. I'm like, Oh my God, we're this
is about this is going to happen.
They're on their way. This is going to happen.
Once again, if I'm really excited, yes.
But if it's just kind of like, OK, let's get this over with,
let's see it, and then I'd love to be pleasantly surprised.
Sure, but I've never been more nervous in my life.
And he took his pants. He pulled his pants down.
I mean it literally like this. But did you know?
Like this this but like thicker. Did you know?
Did you, had you seen a picture? Yeah, that's.
What I was looking for I literally was like looking for
hung top. So you're had you already
explored your butt hole or did you instinctively know that you
needed? I did but only with my older
brothers Adidas sport colon bottle that was like cylindrical
and how to like a ball It had like a ball cap.
I'm going to tell you that was the scariest sentence to hear
someone embark on 'cause you went.
I did, but only with my older brother.
And I was like, still waiting for like, Oh my God, what his
dildo? Like what's going on here?
Nope, his Adidas Sport Cologne bottle that he did not know I
used. So sorry, David.
You heard it here 1st and. I put it up my butt.
I would do that for years honestly, and it was like a good
starter size like. I bet it masked the smell too.
Beautifully, It's like, it was like a nice, like it was like
that big that that skinny. But of course, my junior year, I
remember I put it up, I was using it, took it out, cap was
gone, cap was gone. I remember sticking my finger up
there and I felt the cap and I of course pushed it up further
and I was like, this is I was still with my girlfriend.
I was like this, so I'm going to have to come out.
I was like, this is I was like that.
Was so scary. Yeah.
And then of course to Google. Anything medical related is
going to tell you you have cancer, you're going to die.
Yeah, be like, go to the emergency.
So they were like, you have glass inside you, you should go
to the emergency. It was a glass cap.
Because I mean, of course it was high quality.
My family's good taste. No, but it was like fully glass.
And I started, Lydia started sobbing, sobbing suddenly in the
bathroom. And I just was like, I'm going
to die. This is how I'm going to die.
And I was like, I'm going to have to tell my mom I'm bleeding
out on the inside because I put my brother's Cologne bottle up
my butt. And luckily I waited to, I, I
read in one post that was like, let gravity see if you can like
squat like our ancestors and let gravity do its thing.
And so I literally, I, I remember squatting for like 2
1/2 hours. No.
Actually shaking and sobbing in the bathroom.
I didn't leave the bathroom and eventually it came out.
You're also so lucky there wasn't like an air suction
thing, do you know what I mean? Like.
Don't. Yes, yeah.
Terrifying. Also, I'm going to shame you a
little bit. How did you not think that like
the cap might pop off like? Desperate times, I guess, for
desperate measures. I feel like you should have gone
the other way. Cap down.
See, and that's that's why you're hosting a podcast and I'm
the guest. You're the brilliant.
Mind. Wait.
OK, so you go over this 38 year old.
Yes, that's the only size I've really had up there until then,
which was like maybe 5 inches, like 5 1/2 inches.
Feel like this ain't doing it? Of course not.
You should have sat on like a soda can or something.
My God, did you, did you have like boys in middle school or
something that they would like? They would be like, yeah, my
Dick's like as thick as a Coke can.
No, I didn't get to in on that 'cause I did hang out with girls
and they didn't they, I think they knew I was an absolute
flaming homosexual from early age, so they never were like.
I think I was able to hide behind the theater like the
sweet theater. Theater boy.
Sure. Sort of like image.
I guess I did know actually one guy who was a year older than me
who was also in like a singing group with me.
He iconically had like a big thing, and so did my friend who
was a year younger. He was straight.
Yeah. Yeah.
We did a few of those who we knew were a big swing in, but
they were straight. And there's nothing you can do
about that. You can try your hardest, but
there's nothing you can do about that.
OK. I remember he just kind of
started putting it in and I just remember like the most
beautiful, like Academy Award, like best actress, just.
Single. Tear down my cheek as like I'm
doggy style. Did he eat your butt?
No. That's sad, I didn't.
Eat my butt. But I also at that time, I don't
think I wanted that. You know what I mean?
I think that was like too much for me.
That's too gay. Weirdly, tongue and butt too
gay. Did you guys kiss?
Yes, you did kiss. But like, and he was very sweet
and gentle and of course, like, I think he knew how painful it
was for me. But like, I was just like, it's
fine, It's fine. But I kind of, I think a bit
masochistically liked it. Yeah, I think I liked it.
And then I was hooking up so infrequently over the next few
years that like it would be like every 4-5 months that I think
like my whole would just shrink. And so it was like every time it
felt like the first time, wow, it's so beautiful.
But I would seek out like. Hung tops.
Ginormo Dicks, yeah. So you're going through, you're
going, all these Craigslist things are coming across your
desk. And did the next headline read
like newly freshly popped cherry?
No, from there I transitioned to Grinder fully and then I met my
first like fuck buddy in Chicago and then basically from him.
He was clearly a like married father with a child that I just
was like first time I hooked up was in a pool shed of like his
neighbors crazy. I just was like you know what,
I'm not asking questions be like he like fucked me on a pool
floatie. I'm just like you know what,
don't need to know. Second time we hooked up he had
me over at his place. Saw like little uggs.
Toys. Like little uggs I I saw like
peplum flares like like kicking out of.
His closet. It's like a like a dress, like a
peplum flare on a dress. I just was like a woman lives
here too and a child and they must have not been home.
But I just was like, I'm the other woman, which I guess is
kind of hot, but I felt a little bad.
Was he hot? At the time he was like the
hottest man in the world. He still, he still texts me.
Happy New Year. Oh wow, just happy new year
married. Who knows?
I don't. Even remember what he.
Looks like. Damn.
But like, I remember at the time being like, I can't believe he's
into me. I know that's how it felt like
looking back, he probably was fine looking.
Yeah, and you were as well. Probably cute.
Sure, I was just like a cute. I was like a cute tall noodle at
the time. This was like before I started
working out or anything. So I was just like.
I looked, I looked. I want to say it looks like your
light stands. That was my exact thought.
That was my exact bite to type. OK, So this went on with with
people every four or five months you'd get effed and the B yes.
Did it ever start to get regular or when did you come out or had
you come out? I was, yes.
I came out right after I broke up with my girlfriend.
I. Was out at this time, but
college is where I was like I thought I was going to get to
college. I went to Syracuse and I thought
I was going to get to college and meet my boyfriend and have
my gay little wife and that literally never happened for me.
So I kind of was just like, honestly, Syracuse really like I
think warped my sense of self because it while there were gay
guys there, it was kind of like the gay guys in the like musical
theater Conservatory who were like gay, gay.
And then the rest of the campus, which I was a part of kind of
was like a smaller subset of gay guys than I think I expected.
And then and then the grinder of course was ruled by the DL
torsos primarily the like closeted.
Fry guys, of course. I hoped there was a bunch of.
Those, Oh my God, they're my kryptonite at the time.
No longer my kryptonite, but my kryptonite at the time did.
You get fucked by a bunch of them.
A few of them and like, but I remember like it really first
year especially, I was wearing like a big tweed jacket and bow
ties. So it's like peak Kurt Hummel,
like bow ties and ties every day.
And like I would get messages from guys being like, Oh, you're
the, you're the gay guy who wears the trench coat.
Like I would literally like I was getting shamed for my, I
won't even say femininity, but my flair, my personal like my
personalized sense of self that I quickly was like, Oh, who I am
is not attractive. I guess I must change that.
And now you're on a journey of being attractive to people based
on like their their desires. Fully, I mean, it was just like,
how can I, how can I slowly become as like mask presenting
as I think I, I think a lot of gay guys go on this journey of
how can I? Well, it's celebrated so much
masculinity both by straights and gays is celebrated.
Exactly, unless it's a woman who's masculine.
Oh my God. Then it's hey, bad, bad, bad,
bad, bad, bad. Bad, but there's couldn't be
anything worse. But I remember hooking up with
frat guys who just kind of fat. I mean, couldn't care if I lived
or died, but I kind of loved that.
I did kind of love it. Well, it was like it.
It will always be a thing. I think of like a straight guy
being into you. He also looks like the bully.
He looks like the job. He looks like you.
Feel like the main girl in the movie?
You do you. Do I was.
Like he chose me, he chose me. He won't tell me his name, but
he chose me. Totally he he might get really
mad later. Oh, he will block me for for
sure. Don't come around here.
But like I, I remember there was like there was 1 frat guy in
particular who like freshman year would fuck me great and
like I loved it. But like, there went if I saw
him at a frat. Party Nothing.
Absolutely nothing could never I, I, I know unfortunately it
was really hot, but that somewhere between freshman,
sophomore year, I was like, someone's got to change.
I'm going to, I'm going to get ripped.
I I was like, I'm going to do P90X.
P90. X Peak P90X By the end of the
summer I got to the place where before, like the start, I could
not do a single pull. Up.
Was this like 2009 or something? This was 2012, 2013, summer of
2013 and I by the end of the summer I could do one pull up.
I was like, I was like, fuck yeah.
I fell huge. And from that, that kind of
started my workout journey. And then I started working out
and like it took a long time to get to where I was.
Like I, I was happy with myself, which I think is a more of a
mental journey anyways, but I remember.
Because you can do that anytime. You truly can.
Exactly. But I was like, until I look
like Leo Giamatti or one of the True Blood guys, I won't be
desired. And also like my gay best friend
was all he always had boyfriends.
I was always the like, I was always the best friend on the
side, like, you know what I mean?
Like in better shape I'm by these bettership being me like
more standardly muscular masculine.
Not even, I think he just was out longer and just had this
like I think some people just like it feels like some people
just had. Some people take to
relationships. Yeah, He also just like I think
he had it figured out more. I think he also was unapologetic
about who he was. And I think that there is where
I was so desperate to be whoever they needed me to be to for them
to fall in love with me, which I think unfortunately is not going
to often lead to. Probably nothing long term or
genuine, no. Exactly.
So maybe I was being spared by the universe.
Hello, Tower Bottoms. It's me, your host Zach Newby
Towers. Thank you so much for listening
to Good Side Pod. If you haven't already, give it
a five star rating, Leave a review, share it with a friend,
get the word out. I love you so much.