1 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,120 Hi everyone and welcome back to People Do Want to Know podcast. 2 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,440 My guest today is an iconic, eclectic and very grounded 3 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,680 artist, Mark Dennis. Mark Dennis is known for his 4 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,320 hyper realistic paintings where he finds new meanings in old 5 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,160 masters and explores contemporary questions of 6 00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:36,560 culture, humor and identity. His inspiration comes from 7 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,720 personal experiences ranging from accidentally starting a 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,000 forest fire at age 7 to his days camping in the Puerto Rican 9 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,920 forest as a middle schooler. His art is also sometimes 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,120 inspired by his troubled teen years, which include multiple 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,880 arrests, knife fights, several gun related incidents, a night 12 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,960 in jail, his day in court, and his highly influential post 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,280 college days living in a teepee on a Native American 14 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,880 reservation. All of this you will hear about 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,680 in the episode. Mark is also incredibly well 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,000 traveled. He's lived in Israel, Rome, 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,320 Venice, Florence and Egypt, as well as spent extensive time in 18 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:15,600 the mountains of Peru. He considers himself a Jewban, a 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,960 Jewish Cuban, and is a very acclaimed and respected member 20 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:22,400 of the art community both as an artist and as an educator. 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,600 What I'll add is that despite his turbulent upbringing, Mark 22 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,160 has done an extraordinary amount for the Jewish community and he 23 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,400 is also a highly devoted dad. He's turned himself around but 24 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,080 he's retained still this kind of fun and edgy side. 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,240 If you ever see Mark anywhere, he will most likely be wearing 26 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,600 his signature black and white Puma tracksuit. 27 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,560 After we recorded together, we split a potato knish. 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,760 He is an easygoing, well-rounded Mensch, and I'm so honored to 29 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,000 know him. Hello, Mark, welcome to PEOPLE. 30 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,040 Do you Wanna Know Podcast? Hi. 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:57,680 Thank you so much for being here. 32 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,080 My. Pleasure iconic tracksuit. 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,040 My I'm told I have to wear it forever. 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,840 Now. People notice me in art fairs, 35 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,440 they notice me in the street. So, you know, it's sort of a 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,039 blessing and a curse. Well, it's a signature look. 37 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,280 I guess so I should be paid by Puma? 38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,400 Sponsored by Puma OK, please tell us about yourself. 39 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,080 What do you do and how did you get there? 40 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,200 Well, I'm an artist, professor, college professor. 41 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,600 I was a tenured, I left the post at the time to come back to the 42 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,120 city I was teaching upstate. So I now am sort of an 43 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,360 independent instructor, but I'm a full time painter, a full time 44 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,240 single divorced dad of two teenagers, which is a very big 45 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,640 part of my life. And I'm represented with the 46 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:44,320 gallery here in New York City called Harper's and I'm 47 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,880 represented in Los Angeles with the gallery called a Not Ebgy 48 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,400 Gallery. I'm also a Holocaust researcher 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,600 slash scholar, and I take that kind of lightly because it's not 50 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,120 full time, but I taught Holocaust studies as well. 51 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,960 So I take great pride in that as part of my identity. 52 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,360 Tell me a little bit about your Jewish upbringing. 53 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,640 You have teenage kids, but you yourself, as a teenager, were a 54 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:12,520 big rebel. So I'm curious to know how that 55 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,600 kind of unfolded. What was your Jewish upbringing 56 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,600 like? I love this topic because it 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,880 feeds into everything that I kind of stand for today. 58 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,160 It's odd. So let me just say that as a 59 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,680 kid, like maybe six or seven, I drew all the time, all day long, 60 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,600 all night long. My parents were quite happy that 61 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,120 they knew we'd always find me sitting in front of the TV 62 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,160 drawing or looking at a book drawing, or being out in the 63 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:36,960 backyard drawing birds, whatever it might be. 64 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,600 But I never really wanted to be an artist. 65 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,120 I always thought it was just this hobby that came to me 66 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,840 naturally. I really enjoyed it. 67 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,920 I found some great solace in it. I was also a very active, 68 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:53,240 restless kid, one of five boys in a relatively Jewish secular 69 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,440 household. However, my dad grew up in Cuba. 70 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:01,040 He was born in Cuba because my Zadian Bubby Yaakov and Gussie 71 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,760 d'etenko came from a very small shetal outside Kiev, came to 72 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,840 America and were denied entry. They were told at the time, and 73 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,840 this is a quote that my daddy told me before he passed a long 74 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,680 time ago, he said we were told either to go back or to go to 75 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,360 Cuba, where the rest of the Jews are going. 76 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:21,880 Who knew? I don't know. 77 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,280 He didn't know. He didn't speak any English. 78 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:27,560 He spoke Russian, Ukrainian and Yiddish. 79 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,360 So he went to Cuba and that's where he raised a family of 80 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,000 four. My dad was one of them. 81 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:40,800 So my dad in this old Jewish section of Havana was studying 82 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,920 in yeshiva. He was relatively Orthodox. 83 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:44,160 Did you ever see Fiddler in a Roof? 84 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,000 Well, that's my zadie and my bubby. 85 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,720 They're like, you know, they were the, they were relatively 86 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,880 Orthodox coming from a very small schdettle and made it 87 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:54,560 work. And then they decided, you know, 88 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,800 let's get out of here because, you know, Castro's taking over 89 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,880 and that was a circus. So they came to Boston because 90 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,880 they learned that they had a cousin and a cousin would would 91 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,520 sponsor them. You had to be sponsored. 92 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,680 And the cousin's last name was DANIS Donis. 93 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:16,520 And they learned it through a lot of struggles and challenges 94 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,320 trying to find out if they could come to America through a 95 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:19,560 sponsor. And they discovered that there 96 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,320 was a sponsor outside of Boston, a distant cousin that they never 97 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,360 met. They didn't even meet them when 98 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,680 we came, when they finally got to Boston. 99 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,520 But when they finally got to Boston, it was a man. 100 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,280 It was a guy who who did their paperwork and he said, you got 101 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:33,040 to change your name for the Tenko. 102 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:34,640 You got to give it something else. 103 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,640 Like your sponsor here even has a weird name. 104 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,560 Maybe you should find a balance. Like, you know, it's a nice 105 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,200 Irish city. This is what I was told. 106 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,040 And he said, OK, what should we do? 107 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,280 And he said, Dennis, Dennis, that's a good name for you. 108 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,560 And that was it. And my Zadie said, OK, we're 109 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Americans. Thank you. 110 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,440 We're now Dennis's. So because my dad was relatively 111 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,960 Orthodox growing up, in very short time he met my mom, who 112 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,480 was from Roxbury, born in Somerville, but grew up in 113 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,160 Roxbury. My dad, his family moved to 114 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,000 Dorchester on Blue Hill Ave. and we were all born in Boston, me 115 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,000 and my brothers. And he met this woman who was a 116 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,320 secular Jew, Solomon Joy Solomon, Arlene Joy Solomon. 117 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,000 So they got married, they have 5 boys. 118 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,080 And we were raised in a way that was rather, you know, mostly it 119 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,440 leaned secular, but we did all the High Holidays. 120 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,800 I think it was very difficult for him to manage. 121 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,760 There's a term, you know, I never really knew what it meant 122 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,800 herding cats. But maybe it's good now because 123 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,320 to have Shabbat with five of us, 5 teenage boys a year apart, 124 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,600 dating, sports, it was really challenging. 125 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,600 Friday nights were big nights for football and whatnot. 126 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,320 So I think he gave that up and my dad ultimately just became a 127 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,760 secular Jew as well. I, however, and this is loops us 128 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,960 back to when I was drawing as a kid, became fascinated with my 129 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,920 ancestry. Like my Zadie and Bubby passed 130 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,560 away. My Nana and Poppy on my mom's 131 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,120 side were Polish, Hungarian. Maybe there's Lithuanian in 132 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:54,720 there. I wasn't sure. 133 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,120 Like, no one really knew about the family. 134 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,600 And then I learned I had cousins living in Jerusalem and Maya 135 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,680 Shereen, which means they're all too Orthodox. 136 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:03,800 And I'm like, what? I have that. 137 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:04,720 I have cousins. I don't know. 138 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,560 I mean, my mother said, yeah, Mark, you know, she speaks. 139 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:12,160 She's from Boston. So Mark is Mark, you know, you 140 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,400 got cousins everywhere. I mean, you want to meet him, 141 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,280 reach out. I don't know. 142 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:16,240 You know what? I don't have to tell you. 143 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,800 It's really hard, you know? But then I began to reach out, 144 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:25,880 and I did my research. And in 2001, I learned that I 145 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,640 could go to Israel and maybe look for my cousins and Mayor 146 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,080 Shireen, They're like, maybe. I don't know. 147 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:33,920 I wanted to try at least some point. 148 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,600 And at that time, I was engaged in dialogue with my secular 149 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,240 cousin who lived in Jerusalem, but he wasn't Alto Orthodox. 150 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,520 He was, you know, like I said, secular. 151 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,680 And we started chatting and he said, oh, yeah, you know, not 152 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,080 only that, but you're really, you know, we have associations 153 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:49,720 directly to Auschwitz Beer Canal. 154 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,880 And I'm like, wait, what? And he says, yeah, cousins from 155 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,960 the Klein family have we're all on paperwork had been murdered 156 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,520 at Beer Canal. And, you know, most people don't 157 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,720 know that Auschwitz is a massive camp of three camps. 158 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,840 There's Auschwitz one. There's Auschwitz 2, which was 159 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,520 otherwise Beer Canal, and then they had man of it, which was a 160 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,880 work camp, part of all the, the larger concentration camp unit. 161 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,560 And I said, tell me more. So he told me, he gave me a list 162 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,920 of the names like I, he had a copy of the paperwork. 163 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,440 Somehow you could find it. Yet Bashem had paperwork, the 164 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,280 Auschwitz memorial and Oshvichim Poland had it. 165 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,240 I think that's how you pronounce it, Oshvichim. 166 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,560 So in the Germans change names all the time. 167 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,960 So I had learned that on my mother's side of the family, we 168 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,360 lost 24 people at Beer Canal, murdered. 169 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,039 And then we had seven distant cousins also on the Klein family 170 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:42,280 who froze to death in the woods as partisan fighters. 171 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,040 And this really empowered me to do more research. 172 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,800 So based upon my research, by the way, I never, I did get to 173 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,960 Israel several times and I never met my cousins. 174 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,480 They were unreachable. I mean, may I share? 175 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,600 It was really hard to penetrate and no one really knew who I 176 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,360 wasn't, you know. So may I share him? 177 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,280 I don't know if that was filmed. May I share him? 178 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,680 I have to look into it. But it's, it's like that. 179 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:03,160 It's a community like that really. 180 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,680 So imagine like Williamsburg, you know, stacked high up and if 181 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:09,720 you see the movie, which busy and I think it's filmed 182 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,840 relatively close, which is fascinating movie by the way. 183 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,640 OK, so because I was interested in art and I did my research on 184 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,080 the Holocaust, I went to Yad Vashem. 185 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:21,880 This is how it all started for me. 186 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,320 All my studies on the show. I started on this day, 2005. 187 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:32,320 I walk into Yad Vashem and on the wall was a small drawing of 188 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,040 the moon. The black and white sort of ink 189 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,080 study like a it looked interesting and then it read 190 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:44,240 Peter, Peter PITER, you know, like a Czech spelling Peter Gins 191 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,560 that had seen what that is in stock is the Germans called, you 192 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:51,040 know, the so-called paradise ghetto that Hitler had named so 193 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,000 that when the American when the International Red Cross came to 194 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,520 the Prague, they would see that the Jews were being treated 195 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:57,840 fairly. But it was all a sham. 196 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,400 You know, there's a soccer field and whatnot, but these are this 197 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,240 was like a stopping point to go on to other concentration camps, 198 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,280 mostly algebra. So and this was in Prague. 199 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,800 So the little drawing in the wall said, you know that it's 200 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,680 seen Peter Ginns, age 15. And then it had like a date, 201 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,240 which I probably didn't pay much attention to because I walked 202 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,640 immediately up to the person who was manning well to woman. 203 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,000 So I don't know. It was the person that behind 204 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,840 the front desk. And I said, could you please 205 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,320 explain to me why you would have a a teenager do a rendering of a 206 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,760 moon saying it's like moon over Auschwitz? 207 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,200 I mean, why would isn't that odd? 208 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,600 Like, was this an assignment or she goes, no, that's an actual 209 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,600 drawing that someone made who was in that had seen the 210 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,720 concentration camp or the otherwise referred to as, you 211 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,120 know, a prison. And I said, wait, what? 212 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,000 They made art in the concentration camps? 213 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,640 And she said, well, yeah, I mean, it's actually a very 214 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,800 popular subject amongst certain scholars, but it's really not 215 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:59,000 been studied thoroughly except by two people, you know, and we 216 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,480 have some of the artwork here in the building. 217 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,280 And I said, well, I would give anything. 218 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,560 At the time, I had just accepted a teaching position, full time 219 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:09,880 tenured professor position at a small liberal arts College in 220 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,800 upstate New York. And I was on break now. 221 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,280 And I thought, wow, you know, this could, I could bring back 222 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:16,840 some of this information. I could share it. 223 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,840 And this is really important for me because being a professor, 224 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,160 you know, academia really mattered. 225 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,160 I was more of a professor at the time than a full time painter. 226 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,440 I mean, I mean, I was painting, but being a professor, I took 227 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,280 great pride in that. And I wanted to gather as much 228 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,240 information as possible to share in that context. 229 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,160 And well, may I see the drawings? 230 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,960 I mean, am I allowed to? I mean, she was, well, who are 231 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:38,880 you? I said, well, I'm, you know, I'm 232 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,520 a professor of painting and drawing at a small school in the 233 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,000 in upstate New York in America. And, you know, I'm a Jew. 234 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,400 And it turns out that I have cousins who perished in 235 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,080 Birkenau. And I would like to learn more 236 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,800 about this and being an artist, I think this would be incredible 237 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,080 information for a lot of reasons. 238 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:56,280 And she said, absolutely, let's go. 239 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:57,360 I was like, wait, what? That easy? 240 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,160 She goes, yeah, I'm going to introduce you to the curator. 241 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,400 And so we went upstairs, and I have a really cool photo because 242 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,440 the curator said, you know, you got to prove to people that you 243 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:05,800 were here, they're not going to believe you. 244 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:07,600 And, you know, I had a camera 2005. 245 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,680 So I went up with white gloves, and I handled artwork. 246 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,360 And I noticed that they were made in various concentration 247 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,400 camps. I mean, I'm thinking, wait, 248 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,080 what? These are made in the camp? 249 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,520 I mean, not just in that it seemed, which I learned later 250 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,760 had an art program specifically so that the children imprisoned 251 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,280 could make art to impress the International Red Cross, you 252 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:35,360 know, to to appease the world. You know, like this is like 1939 253 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,920 to 40 before, you know, it really hit the fan after the 254 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:41,880 Japanese bomb, Pearl Harbor, when we got involved and it 255 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,760 became massive deportation of Jews throughout Eastern Europe. 256 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,240 And I said to her, well, why would they make art? 257 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,320 How did they make art? Like, where did they get the 258 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:53,360 supplies? Like what? 259 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,120 And that's what led me. I'm very proud of this. 260 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,920 I wrote, it's essentially a book, but it's a syllabus that I 261 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,080 wrote that I brought back to the Dean and the president of the 262 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:04,480 small school that I was teaching. 263 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,200 And I had requested that they review it and maybe included in 264 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,720 a historical component for whoever teaches world history. 265 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,000 And they said, well, this is a lot of art in here, why don't 266 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,240 you teach it? I said, well, I don't have a 267 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,560 masters in our history. I mean, you know, but the 268 00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:20,400 faculty like me, I, you know, there's a lot of politics and 269 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,800 academia, but the faculty read it and they're like, they were 270 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,600 blown away by it. And they said, let's, let's 271 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:25,680 teach this. You can teach it. 272 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:29,840 So I taught this course called Under the Floorboards Hidden Art 273 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,080 of the Holocaust, because I had learned that mostly the artists 274 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,080 that were imprisoned, which was the other question I asked 275 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,760 myself if I were imprisoned as a Jew and as an artist, you know, 276 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,840 I think I'm pretty skilled. And the Nazis loved academic 277 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:45,880 art. They loved people who were 278 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,520 skilled. They loved representational art, 279 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,760 realism. So they would have loved my 280 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,400 skill set. They would have hated me, but 281 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,520 they would have forced me to make paintings of visiting 282 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,760 dignitaries or portraits of Hitler or Goering Himmler and 283 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,840 put them in the, you know, in the houses of the concentration 284 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,600 camp officers and, and the people who oversaw the camp 285 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,760 structure. So I had put together this 286 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,960 incredible syllabus and I taught it for 14 years and it became an 287 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,280 obsession and it just grew and it got larger. 288 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,360 And then I began to meet survivors. 289 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,160 And then I thought about the fact that these survivors would 290 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,600 not be around. Fast forward 10 years, which is 291 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,520 kind of where we are today, and they're not around very few. 292 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:34,600 So I joined forces with a friend of mine from Tel Aviv who was a 293 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:40,040 filmmaker, and we interviewed one particular survivor named 294 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:46,280 Deena Jacobson for I believe it was 7-8 hours, her entire story, 295 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,080 taking breaks. She was old. 296 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,480 Her husband had just passed, but I had met them upstate and I'd 297 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,240 become like best friends with them. 298 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,520 So I had this is before I was married with kids. 299 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:04,280 So we're talking like 2005 to 2015. 300 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,720 I had Shabbat with them. I had I would go over just to 301 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,480 have cookies and milk with Dina because she would make, she'd 302 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,920 call me and say, you know, you have to eat today and come over. 303 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,640 I have cookies and I'm like, OK, well, I have class in like an 304 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,960 hour. Well, you know, she lived down 305 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,200 the street from the school and we got to become best friends. 306 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,960 And she would tell me her story. And I said, you know, Dina, 307 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,120 before you know, we have to, I want to record this. 308 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,720 I want you to. She goes, whatever you want to 309 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,120 do, I'll work with you. I'll do this with you. 310 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,320 And she sat like we are now right in front of me. 311 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,120 I had a camera on my head so that there was no like she would 312 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,840 be looking, you know, people look at the camera like you just 313 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,840 said to me earlier. And so it's me in front of her 314 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,920 and, you know, and it's her looking directly at me. 315 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,560 And the idea of this film is for the survivor to tell their 316 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,520 story. So it's Dina telling her story. 317 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,880 There are other survivors, but there's so much work in editing 318 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,720 and things of that nature that I'm focusing on Deena Jacobson's 319 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,360 testimony and she's looking directly out at the viewer. 320 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:03,120 So it's like just her head speaking to whomever will take 321 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,160 the time to watch it. It's in the editing phase. 322 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,680 It's a lot of work. And this has been going on for 323 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:08,160 years. I was. 324 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,920 Going to say it was like 20 years at this point that this 325 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,520 has been in the works then. Right. 326 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,440 So that's when kids. So I got married, had kids, and 327 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,920 I, I don't know what else to say, but unless somebody 328 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,880 understands what it means to be a parent, devoted, dedicated, I 329 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,520 mean, you could be a, you know, a parent, but I took, I took 330 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,680 great pride in that more than anything in my life. 331 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:34,200 And I became That was mine. As you're speaking, I have this 332 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,360 thought that, you know, you're telling me the story of an 333 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:43,120 academic and a professor and like this, like, artsy Mensch 334 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,320 who has dedicated his career to the community. 335 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,280 But there's another dimension of you that's like, kind of a 336 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:55,360 troublemaker and someone who pushes boundaries and does 337 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,320 unconventional things. As you were speaking, I was 338 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,040 curious. You know, you mentioned to me 339 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,240 that you lived on a Native American reservation. 340 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,720 When was that in the timeline? So let me loop. 341 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,760 Back and why? Why did you even do? 342 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,760 It kind of sidestepped it. So I was drawing all the time as 343 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,079 a kid and I loved it. And I found great solace. 344 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:14,839 And I did say that I didn't want to be an artist. 345 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,400 I wanted to be, you know, I don't know, a zoologist, a 346 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,720 veterinarian. I had a lot of different 347 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,560 thoughts, mostly had to do with animals of all kinds. 348 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,680 You know, people think animals are just, we're animals. 349 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,520 Spiders are animals. So Fast forward to high school, 350 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,840 you know, even before high school 14, I was, you know, 8th 351 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,120 grade, I started stealing things. 352 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,520 I was pretty good at it. I don't know where to go with 353 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,920 this. I would walk into a store like 354 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,720 Walmart and just, you know, clip a block on a bike and walk out 355 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,280 with it. Why did you want to steal? 356 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,720 Stuff I don't know. I don't know. 357 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,320 I've been asked that question a lot, mostly by the cops when 358 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,960 they got me because I did get caught, which changed my life, 359 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:53,720 which is why I'm an artist, oddly enough. 360 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,640 But I don't know, I, I, it was a challenge. 361 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,680 I was restless. I was a good kid. 362 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,240 I did good. I did well in school. 363 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,160 I never flunked the class while art one year, but that's another 364 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,440 story. So I just didn't go to class. 365 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,200 But anyway, I'm in high school now and I'm 15. 366 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,680 I'm a sophomore and I went on a tear. 367 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,360 I robbed, I stole, I broke into homes, I broke into businesses. 368 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,240 I never went into a bedroom to take personal things. 369 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,320 But, you know, I stole things out of people's garages, mostly 370 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:27,800 because I had run into a group of oddly bikers in the area. 371 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,880 I can't really say much about this, but they always said to 372 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,200 me, you know, if you can get me a, you know, Makita drill set, 373 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,720 you know, I'll give you 100 bucks for 50 bucks or whatever. 374 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,040 And, you know, I was 15. It was great. 375 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:40,960 I'm. And this was in Massachusetts. 376 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,440 Yeah, so in and around the suburbs, I mean this, I have a 377 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,600 lot of stories. I mean, so many stories that got 378 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,800 me into trouble. But ultimately it comes down to 379 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,280 the fact that I did get bussed. I got arrested, cuffed, taken to 380 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,680 jail, and then naturally, I was released. 381 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,920 But I had a court date. And in court, again, I didn't 382 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,160 know what was going to happen. But I was told prior as I 383 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,600 entered the courtroom, I was told prior by the judge who met 384 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,680 me independently. She said, I'm going to give you 385 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,080 20 minutes to explain yourself, you know, to a jury of your 386 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,560 parents, peers, like they were all adults, people's homes 387 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,440 apparently, who I violated, cars I stolen, people who own those, 388 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,280 whatever. I was so scared. 389 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,840 But I, I thought, you know, I got to get a second check. 390 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,960 I got something, I mean, something good has to come out 391 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,200 of this because that's just the way I thought. 392 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,520 And I went off 20 minutes when the judge said you have 20 393 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,560 minutes to talk. We're all going to listen. 394 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,160 It's just you. Even if you pause, it's still 395 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:38,680 your time. We're not going to interrupt 396 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,480 till 20 minutes are up. Everybody here knows that. 397 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,240 I understand being 15 1/2. You know, you could be a little 398 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,840 nervous, but take your time. My God, I non-stop. 399 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,360 I talked non-stop, no breaks. I don't even think I breathed 400 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,520 about how I love art, of how I love comic books, mainly of how 401 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:05,040 my goal in life once I graduate high school is to put. 402 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,520 These are my words because I had this weird patriotic bent where 403 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,520 I would where I. Said that I wanted to be one of 404 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,640 those people who who could bring the old traditional American 405 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,000 comic book back to the forefront so that Annie Mae would take a 406 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,840 backseat you've. Literally done that now, which 407 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,920 is the crazy part, OK. Well, you're really wonderful 408 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,880 for saying that. But so she's looked, they're 409 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,280 listening and non-stop. And then she leans forward and 410 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,280 she has 2 letters in her hands. She's I'm going to read these 411 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,960 letters out loud. And I was like, what? 412 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,120 You got letters who? You know who I didn't write AI 413 00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:42,720 don't know who wrote a letter like what is this going to? 414 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,400 Who wrote the letters? I didn't know, you know, I was 415 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,840 my head was all over the place. And she said one of your letters 416 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,240 is from your teacher. It appears that you're on the 417 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,480 that you were on the yearbook committee and you know, that's a 418 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,720 little funky. I mean, I didn't want I was too 419 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,520 cool of a kid to like let people know that, But so I looked at 420 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:00,680 it. I was like really, you know that 421 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,760 I mean, you know, because I was like a hard ass, like, you know, 422 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,920 and you know, I had long hair and I wore AT shirt. 423 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,680 I had a shirt. I had a collar shirt in court, 424 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,760 but, you know, I was like that tough kid and I didn't want 425 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,240 people to know that. And I was like, well, is this 426 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:14,320 relevant? And she says, yeah, well, I'm 427 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,320 gonna have to read this letter, Mr. Dennis, so please let me 428 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,680 read this. And apparently the teacher who 429 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,760 ran the yearbook club in the yearbook committee was also my 430 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,800 English teacher. And, you know, I didn't really 431 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,520 know that at the time. I mean, I knew that, but I 432 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,560 didn't. I didn't know the teachers took 433 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,960 on clubs like was my. I only did it because they asked 434 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,960 me to be on it. And I liked one of the girls on 435 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,080 on the club because I could draw. 436 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,440 And they're like, dude, you could, can you put, can you draw 437 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,960 caricatures of teachers for the yearbook? 438 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,440 Can you draw cartoons and football players and, you know, 439 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,360 whatever. And it's like, yeah, I would 440 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,000 love to do that. You're going to put it in print. 441 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,760 So that was my motive, my motivation rather. 442 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,320 And. And so she reads the letter and 443 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,840 he said, and the letter states that Mark Dennis is a very 444 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,120 talented kid. He's a little restless, a little 445 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,680 problematic, some other words. But, you know, he's a really 446 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,040 good kid. And, you know, like, give him a 447 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,960 second chance, in other words. And then the other letter was 448 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,280 from the vice principal at the school who had said Mark is a 449 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,920 good kid, He's very well liked. No doubt he's a handful. 450 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,000 But I, you know, it's very touching. 451 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,920 He had said that I think the kids going to go places, that's 452 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,560 simple. And she said I'll make a 453 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,200 decision. And I didn't know anything till 454 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,080 like the next morning. But they gave me my second 455 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,960 chance. Do you think your parents had a 456 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,600 role that they played in that or it was all the school? 457 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,560 Because I imagine your Jewish parents must have had a heart 458 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,040 attack at that rate. Yeah, they were pissed. 459 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,000 Yeah. Yeah, I remember. 460 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,640 It's right here. I remember every second. 461 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,640 When my dad came to pick me up at the jail, he waited, rightly 462 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:44,320 so. He waited. 463 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,640 And then, you know, he was pissed. 464 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,560 You know, I still don't know really why I did what I did, but 465 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,560 I was always getting into trouble. 466 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,240 I mean, you know, in second grade, I lit the woods on fire 467 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,840 and started a forest fire. So I mean, that was a real big 468 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,080 mess at the time. And everybody thought, oh, this 469 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,560 kid, like I was Dennis the Menace. 470 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,320 I was the Dennis the Menace in real life. 471 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,080 Once you kind of had your second chance, what brought you to the 472 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,440 Native American reservation? So like I said, I had really 473 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,200 long hair, but I was very intrigued by Plains tribes 474 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,000 culture, specifically Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho. 475 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,040 I was really curious about the American West, and I was more 476 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,760 curious about the way that many of the tribes defeated the 477 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,920 cavalry post Civil War, like Custer. 478 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,800 I really want to know what happened. 479 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,920 I was really interested in their culture in the sense that it was 480 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,920 important to me to understand because it was what the history 481 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,000 of this country was prior to the arrival of the Europeans. 482 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,440 So I did a lot of research and I began to study the language, 483 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,880 Lakota language, which is otherwise referred to as the 484 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,240 Western Sioux Indians. And I began to learn the 485 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,320 language. I thought it was really 486 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,520 intriguing. I began to wore wore shirts. 487 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,440 I had shirts made out of deerskin. 488 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:09,960 Like I was that kid in high school. 489 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,920 See, I'm telling you, I went to the prom. 490 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,680 I mean, I got stories and I had long hair, you know, like like 491 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,040 as long as yours, if not a little bit longer dark. 492 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,000 I couldn't grow any facial hairs and people thought I was like 493 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,520 this half breed this, you know, like I was either Apache who I 494 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,520 also studied the the the different Apache traps because 495 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,440 Geronimo really interested me, but that wasn't his Apache name. 496 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,480 So I wanted to learn about Crazy Horse that shouldn't go with go. 497 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,120 I wanted to learn about sitting Bull. 498 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,680 You know, I wanted to learn all about their culture, all about 499 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,000 their wars. So one thing led to another. 500 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,320 And then I went out West much later after high school. 501 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:53,400 And while I was out West, I ran into a full blooded Lakota 502 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,640 Indian at a restaurant. And he came over to me because 503 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,840 he heard me say, you know, Hoka, hey, or stay low. 504 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,320 I was talking to some other guy and he's like, do you speak my 505 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:03,680 language? And I said, are you at Lakota? 506 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,440 He said, yeah. He says, you know, my name is 507 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,360 Daryl. And we started talking, and then 508 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:11,760 he said, I want to invite you to the res, which was to me an 509 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,960 incredible opportunity. Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in 510 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,280 what state? South Dakota. 511 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,880 So anyway, it butts up against another Indian Reservation 512 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,120 called Rosebud, which is where he was born. 513 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,760 But his relatives and his sister now lived on Pine Ridge, which 514 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,240 was a bigger reservation for, like, where, you know, Crazy 515 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:36,040 Horse lived and Red Cloud Pia Luta, where you could see the 516 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:40,840 Wounded Knee Memorial. So I went and I stayed with his 517 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,200 sister, Darlene Wounded Shield. That's her name, but she also 518 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,160 goes by Ibis Milk. They have two names. 519 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,600 A lot of the lot of the Lakota Indians I've met and befriended 520 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,840 had two names. It was an incredible experience. 521 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,200 And then they said you have to meet our holy man. 522 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,160 You know, Richard Moves Camp. That was his name on the rez. 523 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,720 The rez is pretty big. I mean, you know, compared to 524 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,800 the entire state of South Dakota, you know, and the 525 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,720 surrounding region, this is, it's very small for what they 526 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,200 knew. Like they no longer were 527 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:17,080 nomadic, you know, Buffalo hunters, but they were now on a 528 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,160 rez, you know, since like 18891890. 529 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,040 And he said to me, you can live in my teepee on the edge of a 530 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,800 Creek, but you got to like, it's a ride. 531 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,720 He had a big property. He had a lot of property. 532 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,280 And it was like an hour right across his property because he 533 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,200 was a very popular guy. I think he's still alive, 534 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,840 actually. So I said, OK, cool. 535 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,240 So I learned really how to utilize a teepee, which I did 536 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:42,920 not know. I was unfamiliar how the flaps 537 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,680 work and how you get a fire in the center going and how it 538 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,040 stays so warm because I was wicked nervous because it snowed 539 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,520 that night. And this was April 9th and it 540 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,520 snowed. And I'm thinking, Oh my God, I'm 541 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,640 going to live in a teepee during my first time and it's going to 542 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:58,880 snow. But I had to learn how to 543 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,120 control the flaps. It's incredible, actually. 544 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,480 So, you know, I spent some time out there a couple of months and 545 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,280 came back east and I was late 90s not and then I took a 546 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,840 teaching job upstate. And so my life is comprised of 547 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,560 all these, you know, pocketed interests that are being fed all 548 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,360 the time. I'm still very much interested 549 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:25,080 in Plains tribe history, obviously the Holocaust and and 550 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:26,960 painting. I mean now I'm a full time I 551 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,200 left my teaching post. And your art a kind of spans a 552 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,600 couple of different things from what I saw last. 553 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,760 All of it feels kind of like hyper realistic, but cartoonish 554 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,320 in a sense. And it has this depth where you 555 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,160 feel like you're immersed into the whatever you're looking at. 556 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,040 So if there's a Bunny with a bubble, the bunny's like right 557 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,080 there in front of you in your face. 558 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,000 And then at the same time you have the Jewish art that you 559 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,240 make and you're you have a self-portrait right, that you've 560 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,560 made where you're dressed like an Orthodox man. 561 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,280 What kind of inspires these completely different pieces? 562 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,000 Or how are you thinking about what you want to create? 563 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,960 That's a really good question. As an artist, I really do it to 564 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,640 make sense of the world I live in. 565 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,240 I don't know if it's anybody else's world, but you know, we 566 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,080 share a world and we also, you know, we all have our own 567 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,960 imaginations. And so I combine the 2. 568 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,120 So I take what it, I understand is the real world, the real and 569 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:26,960 physical world, and then I sort of allow it to merge with my 570 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,040 imaginary world. So I'm kind of creating an 571 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,360 alternate reality in my work. And I always thought that if 572 00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:34,480 that's the case, how are people going to know it's me? 573 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,880 Like, how are they going to know it's my work? 574 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,440 Because my style is not that unique. 575 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,120 I'm AI, am a hyper realist. That's a term which someone 576 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,400 applied to the nature of someone who paints very realistically, 577 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,600 but not from directly from a photograph. 578 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,200 Maybe using photographs as reference, but they don't copy a 579 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,000 photograph, which is what the photorealists did. 580 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,040 They work directly from the photo. 581 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,200 I violate the photo. I have many, many photos. 582 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,920 I work from, you know, photos being a screen, whatever the 583 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:02,440 case. So I thought, well, I'm going to 584 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,360 incorporate, you know, things about me, my identity, my sense 585 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,080 of humor, the fact that I grew up on comic books. 586 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,680 So I, I applied it all and I and I'm and it's been really 587 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,440 successful. So for some reason it's working. 588 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,960 It resonates with people and there was a so delightful and it 589 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,240 has just like a light heartedness about it that I 590 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,480 think really draws people in. Yeah, thank you. 591 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:28,600 Look, we all know that there's a there's an incredible sense of 592 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,400 division amongst probably every country is sort of at an 593 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,960 imaginary civil war in their minds. 594 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,920 Everybody takes sides. I try to see both sides and, you 595 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,160 know, nurture myself and make sure that I'm taking care of my 596 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,400 kids in the way that I need to as they're dead. 597 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,400 But as an artist, I don't care what people want. 598 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,440 I think about what is going to inspire and motivate me to spend 599 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,960 12 to 18 hours alone in the studio. 600 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,360 And believe me, you said earlier that I was a Mensch. 601 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,400 I love people. Well, you know, it's really hard 602 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,400 being alone in the studio for that long. 603 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,680 So if I'm going to be in the studio for that long, I better 604 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,680 damn well have the proper inspiration. 605 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,640 Like I, I can't think about what other people expect of me. 606 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,920 So I go in there and I just kind of think about my past, my 607 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,160 childhood, my the memories. And the thing that happens most 608 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,880 is that I always want people to feel comfortable, like I care. 609 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,040 Like that's the Mensch part. Like you had mentioned, when you 610 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,000 get up close to my, you know, you feel immersed and you know, 611 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,560 it's like I'm painting blankets for people's minds or their 612 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,040 souls. Like I'm giving them something 613 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,560 to wrap their head around. Like I don't make it difficult. 614 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,280 I don't believe. I don't want it to be too 615 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,520 conceptual. I don't want it to be too 616 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,440 disorienting. I want you to say, oh, you know 617 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,800 what? I know what those, I know what 618 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,240 I'm looking at. But my God, the presentation is 619 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,440 bizarre. Who is this person? 620 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,240 Well, I think that's also the part of the magic, because it's 621 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,240 so obvious. You're like, well, is that what 622 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,360 I'm looking at? What am I supposed to be looking 623 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,680 at? And then you're kind of going 624 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,520 through that stream of consciousness when you look at 625 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:03,800 your art. Yes. 626 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,000 So when I was teaching, I was told the students, I said, 627 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,840 listen, you're going to have your ideas, you're going to have 628 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,880 your intentions, you're going to have your inspirations. 629 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,560 You know the three I component of making art, ideas, intentions 630 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,880 and inspiration. And there's the three-part, 631 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,200 it's, you do it through experimentation, exploration, 632 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,800 and do all of it with enthusiasm. 633 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,640 So for me, I just, you know, because I, you know, I teach 634 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,760 that because I live it. I want people to take away 635 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,280 whatever it is that they are able or not. 636 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,960 I mean, because I have no control once the piece is done, 637 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,080 how people might respond or how they might react or how it might 638 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,360 reverberate with them later. And I've learned that being an 639 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,240 artist, you know, it's, I'm always taking a chance because 640 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,400 it's all I do. It's all I do is I make art. 641 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,400 And thank God there are people out there who want to live with 642 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,800 it. And believe me, I go to bed 643 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,640 every night. Every night. 644 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,640 First things I think about are my kids. 645 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,320 Second is like, damn, somebody up there likes me. 646 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,120 That's true. That is actually a fact. 647 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,960 You know, art, we talk about this a lot on the show, that art 648 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,240 is a self development process and that's all it is. 649 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,200 And a lot of art is not even, it's kind of like you're just 650 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,560 the vessel for conveying something that's provided to you 651 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,880 outside of, you know, what you believe or how you want to be 652 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,000 received. A true artists are just a vessel 653 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,560 for a greater message. And throughout all these life 654 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,440 experiences, what wisdom do you think you want to pass on to 655 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,680 your kids? Because I can see that like this 656 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,280 chapter of your life that you're in now, you're a very invested 657 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,800 father and that's kind of the project that you're diving 658 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,080 deeply on. So what is it that you you want 659 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,720 to share with them? Yeah, they're 15 and 17. 660 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,640 I always impress upon them to be true to themselves. 661 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,200 You got to let kids go. You got to let them figure shit 662 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,000 out. Like, I mean, no one. 663 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,520 I had no guidance. Obviously, I, I screwed up a 664 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,840 lot. But now that, you know, I'm on 665 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:10,000 my feet, so to speak, I want I, you know, I I to just be true to 666 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,880 themselves, to listen to the world, figure it out. 667 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,840 Like, don't you know everything in everything in moderation? 668 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,840 There's going to be extremists. There's going to be people who 669 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:19,960 don't care. There's going to be people who 670 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,440 care too much. You got to take it all in stride 671 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,200 and just figure it out. What about your message to 672 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,360 Jewish people? What would it be? 673 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,240 Well, I don't understand the you mean like, well, be true to 674 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,160 yourself. I think there are people who 675 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,960 question themselves. And I think if you could take a 676 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,880 breather and stop questioning yourself, I mean, you're a Jew. 677 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,800 You're a Jew and live your life. I asked because you and I 678 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,120 originally met at a dinner with a bunch of kind of content 679 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,360 creators and Jewish activists. And a lot of the people in that 680 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:56,640 room are very outspoken and there's almost an element of 681 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,240 like aggression around this is what we ought to believe as a 682 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,280 Jewish people. Whereas your art, although it is 683 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:12,000 very clearly Jewish, it doesn't really force any which way what 684 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,880 the viewer should believe, which is a sign of good art. 685 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,280 But I, I wonder how like how you make sense of that because 686 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,880 you're involved in the community and I want to know what, what 687 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,400 you want the Jewish people to do. 688 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,360 Oh wow, that's heavy. I love that Shabbat. 689 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,280 I wish they did more of that. Those Shabbat dinners are great. 690 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,520 I had a lot of fun, and I appreciate having been invited. 691 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,760 And you're right. There are a lot of people who 692 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,120 are in attendance, in attendance, you know, different. 693 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:42,400 They have a different perspective on things. 694 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:48,159 So like, going back to advice that my Nana gave me, my mom's 695 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:52,320 mom, whose relatives perished in Birkenau, although she was born 696 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,679 in America, she would always say to me, Mark, you know, seek 697 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,640 balance because I was a crazy kid, you know, 5 boys. 698 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,400 Yeah. Seek balance. 699 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,960 Like, like, don't like. You don't always have to eat 700 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,680 fast. You don't always have to rush. 701 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,160 You don't always have to like, you know, I don't know what she 702 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,600 was. I imagine it was 9. 703 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,480 And I don't know, I didn't care about balance. 704 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,640 I just, you know. But you remember. 705 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,960 Yeah, because I tell my kids now, everything in moderation, 706 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,080 just seek. Be true to yourself. 707 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,120 Everything in moderation, seek balance, you know, don't get 708 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,920 trapped in conversations you don't want to be part of. 709 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,320 You know, excuse yourself or you know, or go for it. 710 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,360 If you're that person who loves to debate and you're prepared, 711 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,240 go for it. I said the better informed you 712 00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,360 are, the more prepared you're going to be for a debate, You 713 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,520 know, whether it's healthy or unhealthy, you're going to be 714 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,240 able to hold your ground. And nowadays, you know, with 715 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,720 this whole, you know, the horrifying events that occurred 716 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:52,520 on October 7th that pushed everyone to the brink of 717 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,800 figuring out what to do next, You know, I can't tell someone 718 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:03,080 not to be extreme and I can't tell someone, you know, who's 719 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,640 all chill about it, like to become more active. 720 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,440 Those days are over. I'm not that person. 721 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,480 I'm, I'm focused on. I have like put it this way, I 722 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,520 have a lot of energy, but I, I know where to put it. 723 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,960 I can't be there for everyone all the time anymore because I 724 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:25,960 used to try to be. But I am certainly a very, I am 725 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,280 involved. I don't know what that 726 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:33,320 ultimately means to a person listening to this, but I am part 727 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,640 of the community in the sense that I will. 728 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,640 I am in attendance to these lectures and discussion groups 729 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,320 and Zoom calls that people talk about problem solving. 730 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,960 And I don't know if I have the answers. 731 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,600 You know, I come from a family of five boys. 732 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,880 I mean, I, I fucking punched this kid right in the face in 733 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,240 7th grade who called me a kike. Can I curse? 734 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:55,920 Sorry, this kid called me a kike. 735 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:56,920 I didn't even know what kike was. 736 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,080 No one had called me a kike up to that point in my life. 737 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,320 But I'm thinking, wait, what? How does he even know I'm a Jew? 738 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,000 Because I knew it had to mean something bad like a bug, 739 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,600 because I had just moved to this new town in Newtonville, 740 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,360 Massachusetts. And this kid, you know, Tony 741 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,560 DeAngelo, walked up to me and he says, hey, kike, you're in my 742 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,360 seat. I'm like, what? 743 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,200 Second day of classes, I just moved there. 744 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,040 I had, I was the new kid, but apparently people knew who I 745 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:17,760 was. I don't know why. 746 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,800 I don't know how that happened. You know, word spreads a lot in 747 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,760 7th grade. I think it's like a forest fire. 748 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,720 But I got up and I beat the crap out of this kid. 749 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:26,560 And it turned out to be the toughest kid in the grade 750 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:28,200 besides one other kid, Kevin Jones. 751 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,160 This black dude who came up to me at lunch that day, He was 752 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,520 like parting the the sea. He comes walking up towards me 753 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,840 in the lunchroom and he said, are you, you know, you? 754 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,920 I heard you kicked D Angelo's ass today. 755 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,560 I'm like, whoa. I mean, I don't know if I 756 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,280 kicked. Yeah, I punched him in the face. 757 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,600 A couple he goes. Yeah, man, that's cool. 758 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,720 I hate that kid. So I got your back from now on. 759 00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:50,480 And he walked away. So so the toughest kid in the 760 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,440 school embraced me because we both felt the kinship. 761 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:56,760 And it was the first time in my life where I realized, you know, 762 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,320 I now have this identity in the eyes of others. 763 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,320 Like I'm just a Jew growing up at that point, like, you know, 764 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,560 went to temple when we did high holidays, you know, and other 765 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,160 Jewish friends. But I have mostly non Jewish 766 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,520 friends. No one brought it up till it 767 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,680 till it came up, you know, here in 7th grade. 768 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,320 And from that point forward, I thought, you know, I'm proud. 769 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,360 I know who I am. I'm giving back to the 770 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,040 community, not just the Jewish community, but, you know, the 771 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,360 global community. Like, I think what matters most 772 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,400 is not to always wake up angry. It was a big concern of mine 773 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,200 when I was younger. I wasn't just restless. 774 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,000 I was always, I was ready to fight. 775 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,960 I was angry. I was just this kid, you know, 776 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,880 and this teenager and this college kid and I got to a lot 777 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,080 of fights. But one thing I heard most of my 778 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,040 life was funny. You don't look Jewish. 779 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,000 And I keep thinking, my God, this whole Jewish thing is what? 780 00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:45,840 And then when I did the research towards the Holocaust course, 781 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,560 and this is, you know, I'm a man. 782 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,160 I mean, I'm reading about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, 783 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,160 how it started in Russia and how the Nazis had adopted it. 784 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,280 And then I thought, why? Why were they so? 785 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,160 And then I did all this research on the history of being a Jew, 786 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,960 of Judaism, war, the way that we were viewed in the eyes of 787 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,080 others. And then I was really disturbed 788 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,920 by it and I remain so. But I do it so that if I'm going 789 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,120 to bring light to the fact that I am a Jew, I'm going to imbue 790 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,080 it with my sense of humor because I also think I'm pretty 791 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:15,440 funny. It's true. 792 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,240 And and so I started this body of work called 3 Jews Walk into 793 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,600 a Bar. And it's the bar that they're 794 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,720 walking into. It's metaphorical because 795 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:26,280 they're standing in front of a very famous painting by Eduard 796 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,840 Manet called the Follies Bergerie. 797 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,200 And it's a woman's a barmaid staring out. 798 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,360 And it's, you know, the whole, there's a joke, you know, you 799 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,120 could pick it. Anyone could walk into a bar. 800 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,680 Like you could pick a rabbi, a priest and a Buddhist to walk 801 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,240 into a bar, you know, But I thought, fuck it, I'm going to. 802 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,760 I'm a Jew. I'm going to paint about my 803 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,320 identity and the fact that we're funny. 804 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,120 You know, I think for the most part, because if you look at 805 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,960 comic history, not just comic book history, but comical actual 806 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,240 humor history, you know, they're all Jews behind the funny stuff. 807 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,600 People don't know that comic books were started as sort of 808 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,640 like Batman, in particular, Captain America to fight Nazis. 809 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,040 Captain America was only designed to fight the Nazis. 810 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,200 I don't think people even know this, but the comic book 811 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,440 industry, you know? Something I grew up on, I didn't 812 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,040 know at the time. So I began to think, you know 813 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,520 what? If I'm going to fight the fight, 814 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,120 the good fight, I got to do it in the ways that only I can do 815 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,400 it. There's a lot of people out 816 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,320 there that can fight the good fight in the ways that they're 817 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,160 able because of not just their skill sets, but the positions in 818 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,440 which they are in. I'm an artist, so I make 819 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,840 paintings. And the paintings I, you know, I 820 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:27,840 think they're pretty funny actually. 821 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,240 And people love them. In fact I had no idea that there 822 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:36,520 would be embraced so so widely. And the majority of buyers are 823 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,880 non Jews. I was there on your opening 824 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,880 night and I think as interesting as it was to see the different 825 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,000 pieces, of course it was more interesting to see who showed up 826 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,920 and how they responded. Wild, right? 827 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,560 It was a wild night. There was a guy with a parrot. 828 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,000 You know who I'm talking. About. 829 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,680 Yeah, and the parrot was a Jew. How do you know? 830 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:57,440 I don't know, squawking a lot, you know? 831 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,080 There's just a man who brought a parrot. 832 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:01,880 The art. Well, it is. 833 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,120 I mean, you know, there were weirdos everywhere, but in the 834 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,320 art community or whatever it's referred to the art planet, the 835 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,000 art orbit Galaxy, the universe. We exist. 836 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,480 I mean, the weirdos come out because I guess they're allowed 837 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,480 to. I mean, they're accepted, which 838 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,160 is fine, which is great, But there were also a lot of 839 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,080 prosthetic Jews. Right, because. 840 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,920 It came from Muncie, Williamsburg, Crown Heights. 841 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,120 You had someone helping you on a painting, right? 842 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,480 Who's an Orthodox Jew in Finney? Yeah, Penny. 843 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,040 Penny yeah, I was interested, you know, throughout your life, 844 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,560 seems to me that you kind of seek spirituality, whether it's 845 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,280 from your time on the reservation to the Jewish work 846 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,680 that you do now, connecting with your heritage. 847 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,720 Is there anything that really resonates with you and what 848 00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:46,000 you've learned? I like that you took notice that 849 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,640 I seek spirituality. I do. 850 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,640 I do. And I was asked not long ago, 851 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,760 what keeps you painting? Clearly I have bills to pay and 852 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,960 I love my life and I'm blessed and somebody up there likes me. 853 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,520 And if I can make art, I'm going to make art because my God, who, 854 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,480 who I could not have imagined this back in the day that I 855 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,160 would be doing this. I find my work the spiritual 856 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,400 stronghold. I find even sitting in my yard 857 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:16,400 sketching, say a bird, it could be a nearby blue Jay or a 858 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,440 Sparrow, you know, because I do birding. 859 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,480 I love birds. You know, I'd study birds and I 860 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,000 study a lot of animal life, but birds in particular because you 861 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,920 know, they're, they're like, you know, they're dinosaurs and they 862 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,840 intrigued me. And even that even putting even 863 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,920 filling the blank page with marks that that amount to a 864 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,440 replication of a bird that I'm seeing in real life. 865 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,960 There's something incredibly spiritual about that connection 866 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,480 that I'm sharing that time and space with the bird, that I'm 867 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,280 capturing it on paper, that that paper will be around forever 868 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,920 unless it's lost, you know? But the point being is that my 869 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,880 take away from seeking spirituality, it's not over. 870 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,000 I mean, I can answer that on my deathbed because I don't know. 871 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,560 I mean, I just do it because, well, one, the world is chaotic. 872 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,160 There's a lot of chaos, there's a lot of noise. 873 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,320 And I seek, without knowing it, I think I seek quiet. 874 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,320 And at the studio is a very quiet place, even though, you 875 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,400 know, I might have music on or podcasts or whatever, or guests 876 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,960 and I'm speaking to them or talking. 877 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,800 But, you know, in my mind, paintings are very quiet. 878 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,280 I don't ever associate noises or sounds with my work. 879 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,880 It's weird. But I, you know, like they're 880 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,640 quiet. There's these contemplative 881 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,080 places. And I, I think, you know, the 882 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,480 take away for that is really, if I have to, I mean, the reason 883 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,120 why I've been seeking is because I need it. 884 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,560 I think I just need. I thrive on that quiet place. 885 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,560 Two years ago on my show, I had a rabbi, very famous Rabbi Manus 886 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,160 Friedman. And one of the things I dug up 887 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,840 about him that was not well known because I always like to 888 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,400 dig things up about my guests that are not obvious on the 889 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,200 surface. He is a healer, so he has people 890 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,160 fly in from all over the world. They could have diseases or, you 891 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,520 know, emotional turmoil, and he will heal them. 892 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,040 And I heard of somebody he does this out of Minnesota or he used 893 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:08,160 to. And I'm from Minnesota. 894 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,320 So I know a lot of people who know of Manus Friedman. 895 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,760 One of the stories that I was able to share with him is 896 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,760 someone had told me that their son had some ear infection that 897 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,480 wouldn't go away and he had like horrible Vertigo because of it. 898 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,400 And they went to rap by Manus Friedman. 899 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,040 He wrote, put something down a piece of paper, gave them a 900 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:25,360 piece of paper. So I put it in your pocket, 901 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:26,440 forget about it. And that was it. 902 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,760 Then an infection went away at some point. 903 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,240 And then after that, the kid was like, well, what was written on 904 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,280 the paper, right? Because there's this paper in 905 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,000 the pocket. He was was forget about. 906 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,840 Of course, he looked and it was the some random word they 907 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,720 Googled a word. It's a Latin word for the root 908 00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:46,040 of some plant. The plants meant to reduce 909 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,200 infection. So the question is, why did he 910 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:49,920 do all of that? And I asked him about that. 911 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,680 I was like, why? That's really a bizarre thing to 912 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,600 do, right? And he said, the reason I do 913 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,400 that is because Judaism believes that words and things that we 914 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,880 kind of emit outward that we put on paper have energy. 915 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,440 So if I write a word on a piece of paper that and the word is 916 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,840 about healing, then I've created that energy on the piece of 917 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,280 paper for the person to heal. And I think that's kind of like 918 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,240 the philosophy on art is you're putting this energy onto paper 919 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,400 to kind of make sense of the world. 920 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:21,640 It's just another medium. It's not a word. 921 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,920 It's it's a drawing. That's very It's wonderful to 922 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,200 make that connection. Yeah, it's just funny because it 923 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,800 was like 2 years on the dot that I had him and we talked about 924 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,720 this and now I get to speak with someone who who does it in a 925 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,280 different way, but the message is kind of the same. 926 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,800 I definitely have no powers. I do believe in the power it's 927 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,280 going to sound. This is probably the most cliche 928 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,640 thing I've ever said in my life. But I do believe in the power of 929 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:50,480 love and I think if love is conveyed through art or through 930 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,160 any form of like a medium, like you say, healing, you know, 931 00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:56,880 people take notice. I mean, we are animals. 932 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,000 We feel the vibe of other creatures and just as humans 933 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,680 might feel the so-called vibe of another human and you know, they 934 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,720 have a connection. And I think that's the great 935 00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:11,960 thing about art is that there's this connection that's there's 936 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:17,200 this viable means to connect to others without ever really 937 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,760 knowing it. Like, but yet, you know 938 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,000 somewhere out there someone is feeling something from what it 939 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,320 is that I've made. Yeah, so moving us on to a less 940 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,040 woo woo topic, I wanted to understand where the tracksuit 941 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,080 came from. I was watching too many Soprano 942 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,640 episodes. This came much earlier because 943 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,640 the oddly, you know, I love The Sopranos and people, you know, 944 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,040 so I'm going to admit this. No one knows it. 945 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,080 I moved to Montclair, NJ, you know, with my kids and I did not 946 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:50,720 know that Sopranos were filmed out there. 947 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,800 But when I moved out there and I was wearing my Puma track suit 948 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:58,080 and, you know, I also have matching pants and people like, 949 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,240 dude, what are you? What are you that inspired by 950 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:02,400 The Sopranos? I'm like, come on, man. 951 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,120 I like a few people on that show wore track suits, but you know, 952 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,720 it was kind of funny, you know, and but prior to that, I 953 00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:14,160 remember distinctly looking for a jacket that was lightweight 954 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,720 that I could wear, that I could always have my wallet and my 955 00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,480 keys on my person, but without being in my pants pockets. 956 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,000 I always hated things in my pants pockets always. 957 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,360 I never understood that. It just feels, you know, on the 958 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:29,960 tuchus. It feels like an extra lump, 959 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,600 feels like you got a bulge and you don't need in the front. 960 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,520 It's just weird. Like, you know, when I had a lot 961 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,800 of keys, I had keys. I, you know, at a car, at a 962 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,640 studio. I so I, you know, and I grew up, 963 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,160 you know, playing sports and, you know, you know, I knew Puma. 964 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,080 I know Adidas, Adidas, you know, the whole nature of the story 965 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,120 between the German brothers. Yeah. 966 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,880 And Nike, of course. So I tried a Nike coat and 967 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:57,080 Adidas coat and then Puma coat, and the Puma coat fit the best, 968 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,080 and it still fits the best. And I've been wearing it for 20, 969 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:05,560 for 20 years. But I always just liked it. 970 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,440 It's black with a white stripe. And I have this affinity, wore 971 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,840 stripes on sleeves. And when I was studying, the 972 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,680 Lakota wore shirts, the same shirts that they wore when they 973 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,440 defeated Custer and the 7th Cavalry, you know, wore shirts 974 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,040 for the Indians. They would bead the sleeves on 975 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,120 the outside. And I always was blown away by 976 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:26,720 that design. And I thought why they should 977 00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:28,120 make, you know, shirts like that. 978 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,440 And then I realized, oh, my God, they do. 979 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,400 It's called a track suit or a track jacket. 980 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,000 I loved things on the sleeves. There's a motorcycle store in 981 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,400 Williamsburg, because we were living in Williamsburg before we 982 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:45,360 moved to Montclair called Jane's Motorcycles, and it's a great 983 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:46,480 store. You know, they have a little 984 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,280 cafe in there. So I used to take my son in 985 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,720 there and look at them like these motorcycles they built and 986 00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:53,280 they would serve, you know, like blueberry muffins and coffee. 987 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,680 And they had a black long sleeve shirt with the word Jane 988 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,720 Motorcycle down the side of it. And I bought as many as I could 989 00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:02,840 of those just to have them. I don't know where they are now, 990 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,000 but I wear it continually and everybody takes notice. 991 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,640 They're like, oh, dude, I never would have known you at say, you 992 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,160 know, at the Armory Show or the another art fair like Art Basel. 993 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,880 The people said, oh, I knew it was you because of the jacket. 994 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,320 And I said, really? They said, yeah, look around. 995 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,040 Do you think people are wearing Puma track suits at an art fair? 996 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,600 I mean, no way. They're, you know, And I was 997 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,000 like, OK. And then I just, you know, I 998 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,400 always wore it and people kept commenting on it, so now it's 999 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,680 become my thing. Stock. 1000 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,480 Yeah, The funny thing is stock. If you read Puma, but you read 1001 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,320 it using the letters in the Russian alphabet, it spells the 1002 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,200 word Rita, which is my name. So you are wearing my name? 1003 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,280 And that's So what? That's so cool and only you 1004 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,280 could say that to me. Because that's my name in 1005 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,120 Russian. Plus, it's a nice logo of the 1006 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,160 Puma. Yeah, leaping, you know, and I 1007 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,200 take great pride in that. Like it's a well designed logo. 1008 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,320 I mean better than Nike and Adidas. 1009 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,320 There's someone that you need to meet in Montclair, now that I 1010 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,200 know. That that's for you. 1011 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,320 We should talk about this later then. 1012 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,200 OK, Myron Sugarman, the last living Jewish gangster. 1013 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,160 I thought I was a gangster. Wait for real? 1014 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,480 Yeah, he lives there. Sugarman. 1015 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,080 Yeah, he's like the modern day Meyer Lansky. 1016 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,200 Yeah. Bugsy Siegel, Uncle Myron. 1017 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,040 For real. Well, OK, but we should talk 1018 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,000 about it. OK, tell me, how can people 1019 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,760 connect with you and keep up with your work? 1020 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,480 I would love if anybody has the wherewithal to get through this 1021 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,320 my nonsense, they should message me on Instagram. 1022 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,360 I would like to hear from people. 1023 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:40,280 My Instagram back in the day, I wouldn't have like I never 1024 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,000 thought it would. It's a good thing. 1025 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,760 I mean, it's like I get, there's a lot I get to share, you know, 1026 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,320 from my interests, not just about my art, but you know, the 1027 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,400 Broadway shows I attend with my daughter. 1028 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,680 I talk about the food that I might cook. 1029 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,560 Like I just cooked a bison steak for my son. 1030 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,400 I always talk about animals and you know, I find it like a way 1031 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,640 to entertain, you know, and I love to know that people are 1032 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,560 kind of joining me on this crazy trip. 1033 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:07,680 So my Instagram is simply the Dark Menace, which is, I got to 1034 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:09,160 tell you, I can't take credit for it. 1035 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,080 You know, my students back in college nicknamed me the Dark 1036 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,640 Menace, and I didn't know why for like a week. 1037 00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:18,800 I couldn't figure it out. Because it's the flip of the. 1038 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:23,080 Letter my initials. So not Mark Dennis, but dark 1039 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:23,960 menace. Why? 1040 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,520 Because I wore dark clothing. I was kind of a brooding human. 1041 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,880 I had dark hair, dark eyes, and I don't know, I always wear 1042 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,760 black and they're like the dark menace. 1043 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,400 And I was like, OK, whatever. I thought they were talking 1044 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,600 about me being abrasive or just Moody. 1045 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,680 That might be the case. But nonetheless, it it occurred 1046 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,760 to me, I'm like, you guys are all going to get an A for the 1047 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,600 next project. This is a brilliant nickname. 1048 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,720 So that's my handle or or whatever it's called. 1049 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,960 And your gallery is still in Chelsea, right? 1050 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,560 Harper's is in Chelsea. Harper's gallery. 1051 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,000 Harper's, 22nd St. Yeah, I show with him and anyone 1052 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,920 in Manhattan. I have absolutely, in fact, Mark 1053 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,960 calendars. September 10th I believe, is the 1054 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,120 opening of my next solo show with him. 1055 00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,320 Oh my gosh, I'm excited. OK, amazing. 1056 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:15,520 And I have one final. Question say like a Minnesotan, 1057 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,080 Oh my gosh, you're not that far from South Dakota. 1058 00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,880 You know you, you must not I've. Been to South and I've been to a 1059 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,600 reservation. Pine Ridge Pine Ridge, you know, 1060 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,600 it's right off Custer State National Park, which is. 1061 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,040 I've been to a reservation. It's really, it's like the 1062 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,000 second you cross, the energy kind of really changes, I think. 1063 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,320 So for someone who understands the history, and I'll just leave 1064 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,240 it at this, it's inspiring For someone who doesn't know the 1065 00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:38,680 history and just kind of drifts upon the Reds because you can 1066 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,520 drive through it, it's pretty depressing. 1067 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,040 But I'm there, you know, I imagine, you know, the bison 1068 00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,000 still moving across and no borders. 1069 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,400 And you know, I romanticize it because I, I, why not? 1070 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,880 Yeah, because you had that chapter in your life, I have one 1071 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,800 final question for you. It's one that I ask every guest 1072 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,080 of the show. Who would you like to nominate 1073 00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:59,240 for people? Do you want to know? 1074 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:03,520 Well, the first person that comes to mind is the person I 1075 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:05,440 had. You had mentioned that you had 1076 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,760 been to the opening of my show and Adam Cohen, who owns A Hug 1077 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,040 from the Art World, very active, also in his own way. 1078 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,960 The Jewish community gave me that opportunity to have these 1079 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,200 paintings presented where I don't think any other gallery 1080 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,400 would have given me that shot. You know, the show was called 3 1081 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,080 Jews Walk into a Bar. I mean, it's all and he was very 1082 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,320 happy about it and I don't know he'd make a pisser guest. 1083 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,840 Plus he has a wicked accent. I don't know where that he's 1084 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,720 from. Like somewhere in England. 1085 00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:35,240 I don't know if he's like, it's like Speaking of Ozzy. 1086 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,520 Oh, sold. Got it. 1087 00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:40,000 Thank you. Thank you so much for doing 1088 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:40,520 this. This is. 1089 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,920 Yeah, thank you for the invite. Yeah, OK. 1090 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:44,480 Thanks for the invite. I I loved it. 1091 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,440 I love doing this. I could talk all day, actually. 1092 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,720 If you've enjoyed this podcast, please go ahead and rate US five 1093 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:51,520 stars. Be the first to hear our 1094 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,840 episodes by subscribing to PEOPLE Do You Want to Know? 1095 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,360 Wherever you get your podcasts? And for exclusive content, 1096 00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,120 follow us on Instagram at PEOPLE. 1097 00:53:59,120 --> 00:53:59,800 Do You Want to Know?