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Hello everyone and welcome back 
to People Jew Want to Know 

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podcast. 
This episode is literally with 

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one of my idols, Vlad Hikin. 
Vlad leads the North American 

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Advocacy and Social Impact 
Initiative for Simon Wiesenthal 

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Center, a leading global human 
rights activism organization 

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that confronts anti-Semitism and
hate, defends the safety of 

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Israel and Jews worldwide, and 
uses lessons of the Holocaust to

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teach tolerance. 
In his role, Vlad spearheads 

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policy changes that reduce acts 
of anti-Semitism and hatred, 

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create positive changes in 
behavior towards Jews and other 

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persecuted communities, and 
increase public support for the 

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State of Israel. 
He partners with people in the 

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highest levels of government, 
law enforcement, and faith to 

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protect against extremism and 
denounce hatred in the strongest

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terms. 
Prior to Simon Wiesenthal, he 

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served as the Director of Public
Research and Knowledge at the 

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Anti Defamation League or the 
ADL. 

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There he led international 
advocacy efforts, represented 

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the Jewish community with social
media and technology companies 

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in Silicon Valley, he put out 
cutting edge research and 

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delivered programs confronting 
anti-Semitism and extremism. 

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He's also a former refugee from 
state sponsored anti-Semitism in

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the Soviet Union and a grandson 
of Holocaust survivors. 

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Vlad is a legend to say the 
least. 

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He is a true scientist, 
researcher, scholar. 

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He's just a bright, sharp mind. 
And while I do consider him a 

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friend, he knows that I'm 
actually, embarrassingly, a huge

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fan girl. 
I have very little to say in the

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introduction because Vlad's 
episode is just so good. 

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My one thing to share, however, 
is that Vlad mentioned to me 

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offline that in May the Simon 
Wiesenthal Center is going to be

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putting out a report outlining 
the Soviet anti Zionist tactics 

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that have recently been picked 
up by Iran. 

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This is super interesting and 
just timely. 

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When it comes out. 
I'll probably review it and 

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share about it when it goes 
live. 

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So please look out for that. 
For now, enjoy this episode. 

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Hey Vlad, welcome to People Do 
want to Know podcast. 

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Thank you so much for being with
me here. 

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Hey, thanks so much for having 
me. 

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I have been waiting for weeks 
for this conversation. 

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Nothing makes me happier than to
speak to fellow Russian speaking

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Jews, former Soviet Union folks,
and I am just like eagerly 

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awaiting to pick your brain on 
quite a few things. 

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Without further ado, please tell
us about yourself. 

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What do you do and how did you 
get there? 

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My name is Vlad Hikin. 
I serve as the head of Advocacy 

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for North America for the Simon 
Wiesenthal Center. 

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Before that I spent almost 11 
years at the ADL, the Anti 

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Defamation League, in various 
roles. 

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You know, before that I was at 
AJC. 

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Before that I was at JCRC. 
So I've spent most of my career 

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in this line of work, which is 
really deeply personal for me. 

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I came to the United States as a
refugee fleeing the Soviet Union

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from state sponsored 
anti-Semitism and anti Zionism 

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in the Soviet Union. 
And I'm also a grandson of 

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Holocaust survivors. 
My grandfather on my dad's side 

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fought Nazis across Europe, you 
know, liberated multiple 

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European capitals and then 
returned home to a grateful 

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nation. 
They called him a Zionist 

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fascist after liberating Europe 
from fascism. 

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And that's something I think I 
never really quite let go of. 

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I held on to that resentment for
the way that my grandfather, a 

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highly decorated war hero, was 
treated and others like him were

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treated that, you know, on the 
one hand they were, you know, 

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helped fight for the the 
fatherland as it was. 

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And on the other hand, they were
persona non grata in society 

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because, well, for the crime of 
wanting to speak their own 

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indigenous language, wanting the
right to practice their religion

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or their traditional lifeways 
and in the way that meant 

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something to them, or even just 
to emigrate to the land of their

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ancestors. 
For all those crimes, you know, 

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Jews in the Soviet Union were 
harassed and interned in some 

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cases. 
There was violence, there was 

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purges from positions of 
influence, all kinds of 

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discrimination and 
marginalization and persecution.

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And so I think that really 
shaped who I am today, how I 

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think about the world and 
certainly my career path. 

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You would call yourself a former
refugee of anti Zionism. 

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Walk the listener through what 
Soviet anti Zionism looks and 

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feels like and how it manifests 
today. 

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So my story isn't unique at all.
Actually it is a story that 

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characterizes millions of Jews 
who are alive today. 

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You know, wherever anti Zionism 
was embraced as a matter of 

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policy, in every society that 
embraced it, it led to more or 

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less a uniform set of harms to 
the Jewish community in that 

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society. 
You know, dispossession, 

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disenfranchisement, 
displacement, mass violence. 

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You know, that was pretty much 
the story in all cases where 

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Zionism took root. 
And so, you know, when you look 

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at the sort of the the Jewish 
population today and where those

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population centers exist, that 
looks very different from the 

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way the world looked in terms of
its Jewish population centers 

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pre 1950s, let's say, right. 
You know, partially that's to do

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with the Holocaust, of course, 
that really emptied Europe of 

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its Jewish population. 
But there was another wave, 

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right, that took place after the
Holocaust with the various waves

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of, of anti Zionist purges and 
waves of persecution, the show 

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trials, right? 
And so on. 

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That took place in Eastern 
Europe, the, the Soviet bloc 

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and, and its sphere of 
influence, whether we're talking

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about Czechoslovakia, right, 
with the Slansky trial, whether 

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we're talking about Poland in 
1968 with the student uprisings 

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that turned into sort of 
anti-Semitic uprisings. 

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And of course in the Soviet 
Union itself, where, where we 

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both come from, where there was 
all kinds of things that took 

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place that, you know, 
marginalized Jews that suppress 

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Jewish life, Jewish religion, 
culture and so on. 

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And so, you know, this is one of
my pet peeves, right? 

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Is, is in the debates over 
whether anti Zionism is a form 

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of anti-Semitism. 
You know, those debates are 

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always had on the level of 
theory and it's always sort of 

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abstracted from the lived 
experience of Jewish people, 

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right. 
And, and why do we do that? 

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You know, if you want to know 
what it was like for Jews in 

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anti Zionist societies, there's 
millions of Jews alive today who

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can tell you exactly what that 
was like. 

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They no longer live in the 
societies where all of this 

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drama took place because they 
had to flee it to to places 

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where they could be free, where 
they could be openly, proudly 

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Jewish and be dignified and be, 
you know, live in safety and so 

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on. 
This is why I say that, you 

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know, it's important to judge 
ideologies on the basis of the 

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material conditions that they 
create on the ground, rather 

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than the sort of beautiful self 
branding that always comes with 

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these ideologies. 
Because, you know, in terms of 

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the the language that's used to 
sell anti Zionism, oftentimes 

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it's very beautiful language 
about equality and justice and 

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all the things that, you know, 
normal human beings with a 

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functioning conscience would 
embrace. 

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And yet the reality is very 
different in the societies that 

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embrace anti Zionism. 
And so again, let's let's judge 

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anti Zionism and other 
ideologies on the basis of what 

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realities they actually create 
for the people that they target.

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And and even in the societies 
more broadly, because anti 

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Zionism has always swept others 
into its maelstrom as well, 

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right? 
Like anti-Semitism generally, 

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anti Zionism also has harms that
go well beyond the the Jewish 

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population in in the societies 
that embrace it. 

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It leads to, you know, anti 
intellectualism, anti democratic

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phenomenon, right? 
And we've seen that whether in 

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Iraq or whether in, you know, 
the Soviet Union or Poland or 

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Czechoslovakia or any, you know,
North Africa, it was largely the

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same kind of story and the same 
sort of social harms that 

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accrued as a result of the 
spread of this ideology. 

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So let's stop having these 
theoretical abstract 

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conversations, which are 
fascinating to geeks like me who

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love this stuff and want to 
debate it all day. 

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But at the end of the day, you 
know, if we are actually aimed 

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at protecting Jewish people, 
Jewish lives, Jewish culture, 

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you know, then what we actually 
want to do is look at the actual

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impacts on living, breathing 
Jews rather than just looking at

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these abstractions. 
You've built a career in 

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supporting Jewish people through
different dimensions, right? 

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The ADL does one type of work. 
JCRC does another type of work. 

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Simon Wiesenthal does a third 
type of work. 

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Where do you think the most 
impact can be had right now? 

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What are the most effective 
things these legacy Jewish 

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organizations can do? 
First of all, I neglected to 

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answer the the second part of 
your question, right, which is 

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how do we see some of those 
currents that we experienced in 

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the Soviet Union? 
How do we see them manifesting 

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today? 
And I do think there is a kind 

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of genealogy here that links 
current sort of phenomena, you 

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know, to the Providence in in 
the Soviet Union. 

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And actually even even earlier 
than that. 

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I would say that anti Zionism of
the kind that we see today, the 

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sort of demonological 
conspiracist anti Zionism really

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takes root in pre Soviet Russia,
right during the time of at the,

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you know, at the turn of the 
century when there's, you know, 

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sort of all of these different 
groups vying for power, right? 

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Empires are collapsing. 
You know, the old systems of 

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monarchy are being challenged. 
And so you have a lot of 

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misgivings in society about, you
know, a sense of uncertainty 

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about what the future is going 
to look like. 

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What is going to be the dominant
system, Who's going to rule, 

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which ideologies are going to 
win out? 

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Communism, socialism, liberal 
democracy, monarchy, Right, all 

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of these different factions and 
groups vying for power. 

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And within that sort of 
environment arises Zionism as 

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one of the sort of movements, 
right, that is vying for power, 

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a specifically Jewish movement 
that insists on Jewish rights. 

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And so of course, anti-Semitism 
being primarily organized around

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a suspicion of Jewish power was 
necessarily going to treat 

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Zionism as a lightning rod, 
right? 

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Because when you see Jews and 
they're organizing for power, 

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you know, the sort of 
anti-Semitic mindset, uh, leads 

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one to ask the question of, 
well, what are the Jews going to

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do with that power? 
And you know, of course, the 

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answer to that is something 
malicious, right? 

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And so I think, you know, anti 
Zionism begins to take on these 

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sort of conspiracies notions 
about Jews wielding inordinate 

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and undue power over non Jews in
a in a malicious kind of way 

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already at the turn of the 
century. 

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In fact, you know, decades prior
to that, you already had people 

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like Vilhelmar, the guy who 
coined the term anti-Semitism. 

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He already talking about Zionism
as a foul Jewish swindle, right?

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Something nefarious, something 
malicious, something 

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manipulative and kind of 
criminal, maybe, right. 

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But you know, the Soviets very 
much developed that that older 

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propaganda, right? 
Every generation of propaganda 

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builds on that which came before
it. 

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They use sort of use historical 
inertias to build upon and 

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create something that's really 
potent. 

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And they did, right. 
And initially it was used, I 

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think as a tool of domestic 
repression, right? 

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But very quickly, particularly 
after 1967, where Israel 

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basically handily defeated the 
Soviets, Arab allies, anti 

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Zionism of this again 
demonological kind becomes an A 

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product for export, right? 
And so it becomes a tool of 

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geopolitics and the Soviet 
intelligence begins to 

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disseminate anti Zionist ideas 
again in this sort of 

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conspiracist form. 
Not anti Zionism as you know, 

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sort of a sober opposition to 
Zionism, quasi Zionism, but 

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rather sort of an anti-Semitic 
conception of what Zionism is. 

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That looks very much more like 
the Protocols of Zion than any 

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actually existing Zionism, 
right? 

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And so, you know, they actually 
took the Protocols, translated 

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it into Arabic, Farsi and other 
languages, right, and 

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disseminated it across the 
Middle East, alleging that the 

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contents of the Protocols of the
learned Elders of Zion, which is

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an anti-Semitic conspiracy 
tract, probably the sort of the 

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ER tract that upon which a lot 
of modern anti-Semitic 

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conspiracy theories are based. 
They promoted the idea that the 

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the plot for global domination 
contained at the heart of the 

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Protocols was the plans of 
Zionism. 

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And so that that is partly why 
today when you speak to a lot of

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00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,120
anti Zionists, the Zionism that 
they're talking about, most 

229
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:51,920
Zionists wouldn't recognize, 
right? 

230
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,840
It's, you know, almost 
completely divorced from Zionism

231
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,880
as we know it and instead 
replaced with this conspiracy 

232
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,000
theory about global domination 
and, you know, manipulation of 

233
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,040
the media, control of 
governments, right, and various 

234
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,720
other kinds of conspiracy 
theories. 

235
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,200
And so the the Soviets, you 
know, wielded anti-Semitism as a

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00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,440
geopolitical weapon against the 
democratic West. 

237
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:18,640
And those currents very much 
took on a life of their own. 

238
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:24,200
Soviet intelligence influence 
operations were based in a kind 

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00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,760
of propaganda that was always 
intended to take on a life of 

240
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,960
its own and to turn the targets 
of the propaganda into its 

241
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,640
distributive system, right? 
In other words, so it's not just

242
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:40,040
about convincing and spreading, 
it's about turning people into 

243
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,960
the propagators of this 
conspiracy theory of the 

244
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,400
propaganda itself, right? 
So it's this kind of viral or 

245
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,400
self propagating form of 
disinformation, right? 

246
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,920
And so today we very much see a 
lot of the ideas that were sort 

247
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,720
of workshopped and pioneered and
propagated by Soviet 

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00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,320
intelligence that have become 
Derriger on certainly on parts 

249
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,120
of the left, but also in parts 
of the right. 

250
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,120
And this is something that a lot
of people miss. 

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00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,440
I think that, you know, we tend 
to think about left 

252
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,720
anti-Semitism and right 
anti-Semitism and I think that's

253
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,360
a mistake in in many ways 
because it's foolish to think 

254
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,960
that ideas remain quarantined to
the ideological sector in which 

255
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,640
they initially arise. 
That never happens, right? 

256
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,680
When we study anti-Semitism 
historically, what we see is a 

257
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,120
tremendous cross pollination of 
ideas from left to right and 

258
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,160
back again, right? 
So I think it's important to 

259
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:39,360
think about anti-Semitism as 
having a core architecture, but 

260
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,640
dressing for the occasion, as I 
like to say, right, if it if it 

261
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,560
comes to seduce the left, it's 
going to dress one way, right? 

262
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,720
It might, it might Don a hammer 
and sickle armband right, and 

263
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,360
speak in the language of the 
left, in the values of the left,

264
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,760
in the ideological frameworks of
the left. 

265
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,160
If it comes to seduce the right,
it's going to speak a different 

266
00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,080
language, it's going to dress 
differently for that occasion, 

267
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,400
right? 
It might wear a swastika armband

268
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,000
and it might speak in in the 
language of nationalism and and 

269
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,920
patriotism and the values of the
right, conservative values, 

270
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,480
right and so on. 
If it comes to seduce 

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00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,920
Christians, it's gonna speak in 
the language of the gospels. 

272
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,280
If it comes to seduce Muslims, 
you get the point. 

273
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,920
So it's important to understand 
anti-Semitism as this highly 

274
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,760
protein, fungible, adaptable 
ideology that can really be 

275
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,440
used, you know, to explain any 
grievance in the world. 

276
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,800
And that is really, I think how 
anti-Semitism should be 

277
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,920
understood not merely as a kind 
of organic social prejudice, but

278
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,880
rather as a as a kind of 
interpretive model or an 

279
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,440
analytical framework that 
alleges to explain how the world

280
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,440
quote, UN quote really works, 
right? 

281
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,120
Not the way that the sheeple 
understand it, but you know, 

282
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,440
what's really going on behind 
the scenes, as it were. 

283
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,440
And so if you understand it that
way, you can understand that it 

284
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,600
is a highly portable ideology 
that purports to, to basically 

285
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,920
bridge the gap between the world
as it exists or as we perceive 

286
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,040
it and the world as we wish it 
was or think it ought to 

287
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,000
function, right? 
So when you look out on the 

288
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,720
world, you see various things 
that you're unhappy about, 

289
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,440
right? 
No matter your vantage point 

290
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,920
from the left, from the right, 
from a Christian perspective, a 

291
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,680
Muslim perspective, whatever it 
is, you see, you know, innocents

292
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,040
dying in wars, you see people 
don't have enough to eat. 

293
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,120
You see environmental 
destruction, you see political 

294
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,160
corruption. 
You see all kinds of things that

295
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,200
we wish we didn't see in the 
world, right. 

296
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,920
And the mind naturally wants to 
know what is the cause of this? 

297
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,240
What is the cause of this 
suffering? 

298
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,800
What is the cause of this 
injustice? 

299
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,800
The utility of anti-Semitism. 
And I think it's important to 

300
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,240
ask not only what is 
anti-Semitism, but to what end? 

301
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,080
In other words, what what 
utility does it hold to for 

302
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,480
those that embrace it? 
And I think one of the, you 

303
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,440
know, a tremendous end, this 
utility that anti-Semitism holds

304
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,800
is its explanatory power, its 
ability to allay sort of a 

305
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,240
psychological anxiety around not
knowing the source of the 

306
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,280
threat, right? 
If you are somebody who's 

307
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,520
struggling to put food on your 
family's table, the first 

308
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,800
question in your mind is how do 
I stop this? 

309
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,880
How do I end this deprivation, 
right? 

310
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,760
How do I change my economic 
situation so that I can feed my 

311
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,760
family? 
And that necessarily requires 

312
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,960
some sense of well, how did I 
get here? 

313
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,680
What caused me to be in these 
dire straits? 

314
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,400
anti-Semitism comes along and 
gives you the answer. 

315
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,600
It's the Jews, the Zionists, the
globalists, the rootless 

316
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,320
cosmopolitans that are the cause
of your suffering, the cause of 

317
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,360
the suffering of your people, of
your society, of your nation, of

318
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,600
the world, Right. 
And so that puts us back into 

319
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,840
the sort of control seat. 
It puts us back in the driver's 

320
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,520
seat because it tells us, OK, 
yes, these things are going 

321
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,120
wrong. 
But now we've identified the 

322
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,760
source of the problem. 
And if we strike at the source 

323
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,560
of the problem, we can correct 
the problem, right? 

324
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,960
In other words, anti-Semitism 
alleges that Jews or Zionists or

325
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,600
whatever euphemism you want to 
use stands between US and that 

326
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,080
better, brighter, more just and 
equitable world that, you know, 

327
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,800
we want to see, right. 
So if you want to get to that 

328
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,160
world, what do you have to do? 
Well, you have to remove the 

329
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,240
impediment, which is the Jews or
the Zionists or, you know, 

330
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,720
etcetera. 
OK, so Jewish institutions, what

331
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,040
can what can be done I. 
Think this this is a great segue

332
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,840
because you know, if the Jewish 
mind works in very similar ways,

333
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,760
we too are seeking the cause of 
the problem. 

334
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,080
And you know that are facing us 
in this case specifically 

335
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,520
anti-Semitism. 
There's a way in which we want, 

336
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,480
you know, a sort of panacea, 
right? 

337
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,840
And that makes sense. 
We want to feel safe. 

338
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,760
We want to feel secure. 
We want to feel dignified and 

339
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,880
respected in our society, right?
And unfortunately, though, I 

340
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,360
don't think there's a silver 
bullet to anti-Semitism. 

341
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,600
If there was, you know, we 
probably would have solved this 

342
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,920
thing a long time ago. 
I think the way to think about 

343
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,760
it, rather than than thinking 
about, you know, what is, what 

344
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,920
is the one thing that can solve 
anti-Semitism? 

345
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,840
You know, if we can just find 
that one message, that one 

346
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,560
intervention, that one piece of 
educational content or that one,

347
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,720
you know, whatever it is, right,
then we'll, we'll save our 

348
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,400
people, right. 
I think that rather the 

349
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,600
important question to ask is for
every individual, you know, 

350
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,600
where are you best positioned to
have an impact? 

351
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,000
That is the, the core 
fundamental question that I 

352
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,400
think each one of us has to ask 
because really this fight 

353
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,080
requires all of us. 
You know, it's not going to get 

354
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,600
solved by, you know, a few dozen
folks at an NGO working on this 

355
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,560
thing. 
It's, it's too big, it's too 

356
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,840
powerful. 
It's got too much historical 

357
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:41,240
momentum for, you know, for a 
few NGO workers to really solve 

358
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,280
this issue. 
So it's going to have to involve

359
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,960
all of us and and it's going to 
have to involve us really 

360
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,840
thinking about our position, the
skill set, the assets that we 

361
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,560
bring to this fight, right. 
That could be funds. 

362
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,120
If you're a person of means, 
there's a lot of things that 

363
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:02,640
could use your funding right, be
it research, be it the creation 

364
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,240
of different kinds of 
interventions. 

365
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,320
You might have relationships and
connections, right, that could 

366
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,520
be leveraged in service of 
fighting anti-Semitism. 

367
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,920
You might have a membership on 
certain boards or have a 

368
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,560
standing in certain groups or 
organizations. 

369
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,000
You know that again where that 
work can be done. 

370
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,360
You know if you are, for 
example, if you if your politics

371
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,040
are lean left, you're not going 
to be as effective fighting 

372
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,120
anti-Semitism in. 
In right wing political spaces, 

373
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,920
as you are on the left, right, 
because you're going to be seen 

374
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,360
as an outsider, you don't have 
the cultural capital in those 

375
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,160
spaces to really convince people
that, you know, maybe these 

376
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,440
George Soros conspiracy theories
are trending a little bit into a

377
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,480
an anti-Semitic direction, 
right? 

378
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,480
Because the truth is people have
tremendous blind spots where it 

379
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,600
comes to anti-Semitism in their 
own backyard, right? 

380
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,400
Everybody can readily identify 
anti-Semitism across the 

381
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,200
political spectrum over there, 
right, with those people who 

382
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,520
have those politics. 
Where we struggle is to identify

383
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,080
anti-Semitism of the people who 
share our political ideology 

384
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,200
viewpoint, right and so on. 
But that's actually where we 

385
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,120
need to do the work because 
again, you're not going to be as

386
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,880
effective in spaces where you're
seen as not what part of the 

387
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,480
family, right? 
You're not, you're not on the 

388
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:21,720
inside. 
You're an outsider. 

389
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,320
So do the work where you're 
positioned to to have greatest 

390
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,840
impact. 
And there's really no, no end to

391
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,000
the kinds of interventions we 
need here, right? 

392
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,880
Because it's not a unilateral 
kind of issue here. 

393
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,560
It's not simply a policy issue. 
It's not merely an education 

394
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,880
issue. 
It's not merely a media literacy

395
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,320
issue. 
It's not merely a national 

396
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,040
security issue. 
It's it's a whole bunch of 

397
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,320
things that that come together 
to create this problem. 

398
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,720
And so the solutions are similar
going similarly going to have to

399
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,720
be, you know, sort of 
multidisciplinary, if you will. 

400
00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,840
There's, you know, those who 
have skills in, for example, in 

401
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,760
in social media, right? 
That's a very useful skill. 

402
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,720
People who have skills as 
educational curriculum 

403
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,960
designers. 
That's a really useful skill. 

404
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:16,040
People who know how to do 
research right that's a really 

405
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,640
important skill. 
There's so much that we don't 

406
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,880
know about anti-Semitism, how it
functions, why it functions, its

407
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,600
harms right. 
There's there's still very scant

408
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,320
research into this phenomenon, 
which you know, is one of the 

409
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,000
oldest and I would say Moat 
historically most successful 

410
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,360
phenomena that has seduced 
people across eons, across 

411
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,400
generations, across cultures, 
political ideologies, religious,

412
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,800
etc. 
And so one of the things that I 

413
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,680
say is what can we learn from 
anti-Semitism, right? 

414
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,160
How can we reverse engineer this
incredibly successful 

415
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:58,120
psychosocial phenomenon, right? 
So I would sort of encourage 

416
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,800
movements, groups, organizations
in individuals to think about it

417
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,480
in those ways, right? 
To think about where are you 

418
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,800
best positioned to have an 
impact? 

419
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,520
What do you bring uniquely to 
this fight? 

420
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,320
You know, critically to think 
about anti-Semitism in those 

421
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,360
terms, right? 
Not merely as a kind of organic 

422
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,240
social prejudice, but as an 
interpretive model that helps 

423
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:22,160
explain the a, a complex and and
often scary world to people. 

424
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,600
And if you approach it that way 
and understand why it's been 

425
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600
successful, what makes it so 
successful, then we can 

426
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,760
potentially reverse engineer 
some of that right to use it 

427
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,920
against to fight anti-Semitism, 
right? 

428
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,560
Which is part of how I think 
about my work, certainly at the 

429
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,800
Simon Wiesenthal Center and and 
previous to that at ADL. 

430
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,680
There are kind of camps forming 
now around what to do with the 

431
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,680
word Zionism. 
So there are all these for 

432
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,120
example activists that are 
saying we need to reclaim the 

433
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:53,240
word Zionism. 
Like where your Zionist AF shirt

434
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200
out and proud explain to people 
what Zionism is and then there's

435
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,600
another camp that's like that 
ship might have sailed. 

436
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,280
We need to use other language to
get the message across. 

437
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,080
Like let's talk about Jew 
hatred. 

438
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,240
Let's set Zionism aside and 
still explain kind of the 

439
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,400
negative impacts of all of this.
What do you think I? 

440
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,360
Mean this debate has been going 
on for years and there's 

441
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:19,600
certainly very strong opinions. 
And I do think terminological 

442
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,400
debates are important. 
You know, terminology matters. 

443
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,280
How we define and explain our 
world, you know, the terms we 

444
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,480
use to, to sort of explain our 
world. 

445
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,600
It really does matter. 
I perceive a kind of desperation

446
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,240
in these debates, though, a real
sense, again, going back to to 

447
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,480
what we just discussed. 
You know, there's a there's a 

448
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,600
real desperation to find that 
one thing, right, that one 

449
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,760
explanation so that people 
finally get it. 

450
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,080
There's been such tremendous 
gaslighting of Jews around the 

451
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,400
issue of anti-Semitism, right, 
that it's all in your head. 

452
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,560
Oh, you're making it up or, or 
even, you know, oh, you're just 

453
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,600
using the the charge of 
anti-Semitism. 

454
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,600
You're pulling the anti-Semitism
card, right, in order to cover 

455
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,400
up Israeli crimes or, you know, 
whatever the case may be. 

456
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,680
The amount of gaslighting to 
which Jews have been subjected, 

457
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,080
I think has led to this real 
desperate attempt to find this 

458
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,520
one sort of rhetorical maneuver,
this one explanation, this one, 

459
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,280
you know, sort of terminological
tool that we can use so that the

460
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,640
rest of the world finally sees 
us and sees what we're 

461
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,760
experiencing, right? 
And sees that no, this really is

462
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,600
anti-Semitism. 
We're not making it up. 

463
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,560
It's not in our heads. 
We're not using it to manipulate

464
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,280
people. 
It really is happening in the 

465
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,120
way that we described. 
I lament the fact that that we 

466
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:39,840
we have these debates in this 
way. 

467
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,600
I'll also say that I, I think I 
don't know that there's like a 

468
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,320
perfect descriptor here, right? 
Because, you know, the those who

469
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,600
want to just use Jew hatred, 
well, anti-Semitism and and 

470
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,120
including in its anti Zionist 
form can't really be reduced to 

471
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,240
hatred, right? 
As I already said, it's more of 

472
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,720
an analytical model, right? 
It's more of a particular way of

473
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,840
of trying to make sense of the 
world than it is a an emotion, 

474
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,280
right? 
Hatred is an emotion. 

475
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,520
anti-Semitism operates beyond 
sentiment, right, beyond sort of

476
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,640
feelings. 
It's really again a way of 

477
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,920
trying to understand the world. 
So I'm not sure that describing,

478
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,720
you know, anti Zionism as just 
Jew hatred is really accurate. 

479
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,440
On the other hand, it might be 
more effective, right? 

480
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,640
What's what's most accurate is 
not necessarily what's most 

481
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,120
effective, right, rhetorically 
speaking. 

482
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,280
And so, you know, when you say 
Jew hatred, people get that they

483
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,200
understand it viscerally 
sometimes, right? 

484
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,680
And so, you know, there might be
a good reason to go with a 

485
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,200
descriptor that's maybe less 
technically accurate but more 

486
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,160
rhetorically effective, right? 
Like calling it Jew hatred. 

487
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,880
So I don't know, these debates 
are complex. 

488
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,640
I think whatever the case may 
be, all of this, we can't guess,

489
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:57,800
right? 
We can't guess at this. 

490
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,760
We actually need to subject any 
of these hypothesis to rigorous 

491
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,840
scientific testing, right? 
You know, when you describe 

492
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,240
something as Jew hatred, how 
does it land versus if you 

493
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,160
describe it as anti-Semitism 
versus if you describe it as 

494
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,440
anti Jewish prejudice or you 
know, any other descriptor that 

495
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,240
you might come up with which one
gets through to people? 

496
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,720
What is the effect of using one 
term over another? 

497
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,960
There's research happening right
now that seeks to get at those 

498
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,320
kinds of questions, but really 
we really need a lot more 

499
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,360
research into these questions. 
There really is just not 

500
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,520
insufficient research into 
anti-Semitism and its 

501
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,560
corollaries. 
And so I, you know, if you are a

502
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,560
Jewish philanthropist that's 
listening to this, there's a lot

503
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,200
of good places that you could 
direct your philanthropic funds 

504
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,160
to help us better understand 
this phenomenon, which, you 

505
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,920
know, again, has been around for
thousands of years and yet 

506
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,640
remains really poorly 
understood. 

507
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,080
There I have two favorite 
gaslights. 

508
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,680
I don't know if that's a noun. 
I have two favorite gaslights 

509
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,240
that I hear that always drive me
nuts. 

510
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,800
The first one is, well, that's 
not how Zionism is defined. 

511
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,600
That's not how I define Zionism,
as if Zionism is like can have a

512
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,200
personal definition. 
That's my first favorite 

513
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,880
gaslight. 
My second favorite gaslight is 

514
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,960
from our very own community. 
It's to me a form of 

515
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:25,760
internalized anti-Semitism. 
Have you seen the movie? 

516
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,640
So be bore. 
Yeah, with Constantine Hebensky,

517
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,320
so very famous Russian actor and
producer and director, and he's 

518
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,240
like, I don't know, Tom Cruise, 
Bradley Cooper level in Russia, 

519
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,760
and he's a Jew. 
And he made a film that was 

520
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,880
nominated for the International 
Oscar about the revolt of Sobie 

521
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,480
Board. 
It's all based on a true story. 

522
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,480
And as I got to see, this was 
years ago. 

523
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,920
I got to go to a premiere in New
York City where he took a Q&A 

524
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,920
afterwards. 
And that was like the first time

525
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,120
I ever met, you know, a 
celebrity like that in my life. 

526
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,000
I was so excited. 
I planned a question. 

527
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,920
And as I watched the movie, I 
felt this kind of vibe that, 

528
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,240
like, the Jews walk themselves 
to their own slaughter kind of 

529
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,560
vibe. 
And that here was this 

530
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,560
character, this protagonist 
played by Constantine Hibianski,

531
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,360
who wouldn't stoop like the rest
of those Jews. 

532
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,880
And he mobilized everybody to 
stage a revolt. 

533
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,880
And if it weren't for him, all 
of them would have been dead. 

534
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,120
And so that's the kind of vibe I
picked up on. 

535
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,640
And I asked him. 
I said, you know, are you 

536
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,360
telling me that the Jews could 
have done more and with this 

537
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,600
film? 
And he basically said that the 

538
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,440
Jews are very old people, a very
wise people, but they didn't see

539
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,320
it coming. 
And that's a big mistake on on 

540
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,920
our part effectively, which is 
the most kind of common 

541
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,880
internalized anti-Semitism in 
the former Soviet Union 

542
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,840
mentality. 
They have been the Jews 

543
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,600
themselves have been convinced 
they did something wrong, you 

544
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,360
know, when it comes to the 
Holocaust. 

545
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,920
And that's another form of 
gaslighting. 

546
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,360
That's so profound, yeah. 
Well, I mean, look, this is a 

547
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,000
really important point that 
you're making, which is that 

548
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,320
nobody is immune to 
anti-Semitism. 

549
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,120
I'll repeat that. 
Nobody is immune to 

550
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,520
anti-Semitism, including Jews, 
right? 

551
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,120
Jews are just human beings who 
live in a society. 

552
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,080
And if that society happens to 
be suffused with anti-Semitic 

553
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,960
undercurrents, right messaging, 
you know, cultural norms, social

554
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,480
dynamics, etcetera, for 
centuries. 

555
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,320
And if you live in that society,
you can't help but be influenced

556
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,200
by the same thing that the rest 
of the society is going to be 

557
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,360
influenced by to varying degrees
lesser, more. 

558
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,200
But but at the end of the day, 
Jews too are susceptible to 

559
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,640
anti-Semitism. 
And you do know, in the Soviet 

560
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,040
Union, you know, and this kind 
of brings us full circle, right?

561
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,720
There was one of the prevailing 
ideas about Jews is that they 

562
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,720
were unwilling to fight, right? 
That they were unwilling to 

563
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,960
fight to defend the, the 
fatherland, the homeland, and 

564
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,720
generally that Jews are not that
they're weak, that they're Neba 

565
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,200
she, they're not soldiers, 
they're not fighters. 

566
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,920
They're not, they don't have 
physical prowess, They're weak. 

567
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,520
They are cowardly, right? 
They're, they're not the kind of

568
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,400
people that you think are going 
to take up arms to defend the 

569
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,800
nation. 
And so it was very common to 

570
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,560
hear in the Soviet Union, 
including from, from elected or 

571
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,680
elected officials. 
It's that's, that's silly to say

572
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,080
in the Soviet Union, but but 
from the from the government 

573
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,800
itself, you would hear these 
messages that Jews did not fight

574
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,320
the Jews, you know, basically 
sat out the war. 

575
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,920
The truth is, of course, that 
like my grandfather, there were 

576
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,440
many, many, many Jewish war 
heroes, highly decorated, you 

577
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,880
know, veterans of the Second 
World War. 

578
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,400
And of course they used them, 
you know, where it was useful, 

579
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,560
for example, the anti Zionist 
committee of the so of the 

580
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,040
Soviet public right, which was 
this body that was formed by the

581
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,280
Communist Party of the Soviet 
Union to basically put a kosher 

582
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,480
stamp of approval on their 
anti-Semitic and anti Zionist 

583
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,040
policies and to promote anti 
Zionism among Jews and and, you 

584
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,560
know, to run interference 
basically against charges of 

585
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,720
anti-Semitism. 
You know that that group was led

586
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,840
by a highly decorated Jewish war
hero, General Dragunski, right. 

587
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,400
So it's not that people didn't 
know that there were actual, you

588
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,040
know, highly decorated war 
heroes among the Jews, but there

589
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,280
was this prevailing notion and 
this constant messaging that 

590
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,720
Jews did not fight, the Jews 
could not fight, that they were 

591
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,400
cowardly, right? 
And all this, all these things. 

592
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,040
And I think you're right that 
Jews to, to varying degrees, 

593
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,480
internalized this idea. 
And you do see it coming up. 

594
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,680
The truth is, of course, that 
many Jews did see it coming, 

595
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,160
right? 
Those Jews were called Zionists.

596
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,560
They left and they now have 
families in Israel and those who

597
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,800
who didn't see it coming, well, 
many of those are no longer with

598
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,920
us, unfortunately. 
But the reality is that 

599
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,520
somewhere between 30 and 40,000 
Jews, I think, took up arms 

600
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,240
outside of the traditional 
armies, right outside of the Red

601
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,600
Army and so on, the American 
military, that they took up arms

602
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,080
as resistance fighters, right, 
as partisans. 

603
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,000
And in fact, that was my first 
sort of nonprofit job was the 

604
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,720
the Jewish Partisan Educational 
Foundation, which is, you know, 

605
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,680
dedicated to preserving and 
disseminating and teaching about

606
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,280
the history of Jewish resistance
during World War 2. 

607
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,280
Because, you know, Jews didn't 
go like sheep to the slaughter. 

608
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,440
They did resist in many ways, 
both in armed conflict, but also

609
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,320
in many other forms, right? 
Cultural resistance, right, and 

610
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,000
so many other acts of, of 
bravery and defiance. 

611
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,880
And that's a really important 
story that needs to be told 

612
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,640
because it does shape how people
regard Jews. 

613
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:50,320
You don't gain respect from the 
world by basically laying down 

614
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,320
your arms and and going like 
sheep to the slaughter. 

615
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,080
That's not a narrative that's 
going to win friends for the 

616
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,120
Jews, right? 
It makes Jews seem kind of 

617
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,480
pathetic and and not people you 
really want to ally with. 

618
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,720
We got a chance to talk about 
this offline, the fact that 

619
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,840
there is a form of internalized 
anti-Semitism happening today, 

620
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,880
specifically when it comes to 
Zionism, especially progressive 

621
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,080
circles. 
What are you seeing now on the 

622
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,840
ground? 
I think this is something that 

623
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,880
we really haven't tackled as a 
community. 

624
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:25,040
You know, the internalized 
depression is something that is 

625
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,199
a factor in many minority 
communities. 

626
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,120
But I think we, you know, the 
Jewish community, I think is a 

627
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,400
little bit behind other 
communities that have been 

628
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,159
marginalized and suppressed to 
bear, you know, subjected to 

629
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,639
various kinds of racist 
propaganda, stereotyping, 

630
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,360
essentializing and so on. 
In terms of our sort of 

631
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,120
recognition of this phenomenon, 
in terms of our understanding of

632
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,239
this phenomenon, research into 
this phenomenon basically 

633
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,360
doesn't exist. 
There's really quite little out 

634
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,840
there that is scientifically 
rigorous, you know, in terms of 

635
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200
inquiry into this phenomenon of 
internalized anti-Semitism, the 

636
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,560
processes of it, the harms of 
it, right, the impacts of it. 

637
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,400
So, so that's one of these sort 
of lanes of research that I 

638
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,520
would offer really needs a lot 
of support work and funding and 

639
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,720
so on, because we really don't 
know so much about how this 

640
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:20,480
works or the effect that it has 
on us. 

641
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:26,760
You know, I often use the 
example that let's say you are a

642
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,320
Jewish woman in a corporate 
environment who, you know, is 

643
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,000
really kick ass at her job, 
right? 

644
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,320
Just killing it every day and 
then you know, it's time, you 

645
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,320
know, for your review and it's 
time for you to potentially be 

646
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,320
promoted or get a raise. 
If you are operating in an 

647
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,880
environment in which Jews are 
seen as materialistic, money 

648
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,320
driven, acquisitive and so on, 
are you going to advocate as 

649
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,080
powerfully for yourself as you 
otherwise would as a Jewish 

650
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,200
woman? 
I would offer that often times 

651
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,080
the answer is no, because we 
don't want to be seen as 

652
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,080
fulfilling those stereotypes, 
right? 

653
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,720
And so the question that arises,
what is the economic harm to the

654
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:10,560
Jewish community when you 
extrapolate from the individual 

655
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,880
onto an entire community? 
What is the economic loss from 

656
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,920
just that one very narrow impact
of internalized anti-Semitism, 

657
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,120
right? 
The way that it conditions us to

658
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,840
act in ways we wouldn't 
otherwise act, right? 

659
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,200
So this is something that that 
really needs to be studied to a 

660
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,720
much greater degree and, and 
understood much more deeply. 

661
00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:33,280
You know, in the 1954 Brown V 
Board of Education case, it 

662
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,080
really turned on this key piece 
of research, right? 

663
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,880
That was funded by the Jewish 
community and carried out by a 

664
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,560
couple of black psychologists, 
the Clarks. 

665
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,160
And what they sought to 
understand was the pernicious 

666
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,880
effects of segregation on the 
minds of black children, right? 

667
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,240
And So what they came up with 
was of the doll test. 

668
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,240
And you can go to YouTube right 
now and punch in doll test and 

669
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:58,680
you can see a recreation of this
experiment. 

670
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,480
But the basics of it was that 
they took tiny little black 

671
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,880
children, you know, 5678 years 
old, and they put in front of 

672
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,440
them a black doll and a white 
doll. 

673
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,160
And then they asked them a 
series of question, which is the

674
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,720
good doll? 
Which is the naughty doll? 

675
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,880
Which is the smart doll? 
Which is the stupid doll? 

676
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,840
Which is the beautiful doll? 
Which is the ugly doll? 

677
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,520
Now, which doll looks like you? 
And it is one of the most 

678
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,680
painful things that I forced 
myself to, to witness on a 

679
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:27,000
yearly basis because it reminds 
me of why I do this kind of 

680
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,280
work. 
It is so painful to watch these 

681
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,960
tiny little children already 
having internalized at the age 

682
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,200
of, you know, 5-6, seven years 
old, these ideas about 

683
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,680
themselves that they are somehow
less worthy, less smart, less 

684
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,880
capable, less beautiful, simply 
because of the color of their 

685
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,600
skin. 
And there's a parallel 

686
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,160
phenomenon that Jews also 
experience, right? 

687
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,480
And, and all groups that have 
faced marginalization and 

688
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,520
oppression and persecution face 
these kinds of things, whether 

689
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,080
you're a woman, whether you're 
black, whether you're Jewish, 

690
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,320
internalized anti-Semitism is 
real. 

691
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,840
And it it does shape our 
behavior. 

692
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,680
It does impact our sense of self
worth, our sense of dignity, our

693
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,080
sense of, you know, what we're 
capable of, what we should 

694
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,720
strive for, what we can achieve,
right? 

695
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:17,160
And and so I think especially at
a time like right now when you 

696
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,840
know, young Jewish people, but 
really all of us are being 

697
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:25,240
subjected to just a torrent, a 
tsunami of anti Jewish content 

698
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,760
that is conditioning us to think
that Jews are, you know, less 

699
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,920
honest, less dignified, less 
worthy, less humane, less 

700
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,880
ethical than other people, 
Right? 

701
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,960
That repetition over and over 
and over again, like a steady 

702
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,560
drip of poison into our social 
media feeds over time. 

703
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,880
That has an effect. 
And we don't know the scale and 

704
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,800
scope and depth of the harms of 
that effect because it hasn't 

705
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,480
been studied. 
But we know it's incredibly 

706
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,000
pernicious. 
We know that it has tremendous 

707
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,680
harms to the Jewish psyche, to 
Jewish people, to the Jewish 

708
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,920
community writ large. 
And so, you know, we really need

709
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,360
to understand this phenomenon 
better, but also we can't wait 

710
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,680
to get that research. 
We have to start acting now. 

711
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,200
And so I think it's really 
important to almost repeat this 

712
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,640
as a mantra, right? 
Particularly for young Jewish 

713
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,080
people, but really for all of us
that this isn't true. 

714
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,320
It's not about us and it's not 
our fault. anti-Semitism is 

715
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,920
based on falsehoods. 
It doesn't approach the Jew as 

716
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,280
the Jew exists. 
It creates A fictitious 

717
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,640
villainous Jew on to whom we 
project all of our misgivings 

718
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,720
about society, about the world. 
Right. 

719
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:41,840
As we previously discussed, the 
Jew of the anti-Semitic 

720
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,280
imagination is a caricature. 
It's not really about us. 

721
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,960
anti-Semitism really at its 
heart isn't about Jews. 

722
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,560
It's about all of the 
psychological drama, the 

723
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,680
misgivings, the sense of 
disempowerment, 

724
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,960
disenfranchisement, dislocation,
etc that the non Jewish world 

725
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,280
has and then projects on to 
Jews, right? 

726
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,400
So it's not true, it's not about
us, and it's not our fault, 

727
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,760
right? 
The anti Jewish virus. 

728
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,720
Does not arise from within the 
Jewish society. 

729
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:12,920
It's a malady of the non Jewish 
world. 

730
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,480
So that's where the work needs 
to be done, right. 

731
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,800
It's the non Jewish world that 
needs to heal from this virus 

732
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,920
with which it's been infected 
and that's we can't do that for 

733
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,440
them. 
What we can do though, is focus 

734
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,800
on the again, the degree to 
which we've been infected with 

735
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,880
that same virus, that same 
internalized anti-Semitism. 

736
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,600
Unless we critically self 
analyze and look at, you know, 

737
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,200
to what degree we have 
internalized some of these ideas

738
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,280
and sort of sentiments and 
ideological inclinations 

739
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,920
ourselves. 
Unless we do that, it will sort 

740
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,760
of sit in the background, right,
and sort of do harm to us 

741
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,120
without us ever recognizing it. 
So, you know, I think we have to

742
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,200
set aside this pretense that 
anti-Semitism is something that 

743
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,680
comes from outside, right, That 
we are the guardians at the gate

744
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,880
trying to keep this this thing 
out. 

745
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,840
We have to recognize that the 
call is already coming from 

746
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,200
inside the building. 
It's already burrowed its way 

747
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,280
into our psyches, right? 
Even the most proud Jews, even 

748
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,680
people who have spent their 
entire careers fighting 

749
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,880
anti-Semitism. 
I still would not get too 

750
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,920
comfortable thinking that no, 
no, not me, not me. 

751
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,960
Couldn't be me, right? 
I'm impervious to it. 

752
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,160
No, all of us. 
All of us. 

753
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:28,840
The proud Jew, the disconnected 
Jew, the unaffiliated Jew, the 

754
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,400
Jew who spent every single, you 
know, Shabbat in synagogue and 

755
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,600
the one who's barely ever set 
foot in synagogue. 

756
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,200
All of us are susceptible to 
internalizing these ideas. 

757
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:40,800
And so we really have to be 
vigilant about this. 

758
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,400
We have to be vigilant with 
ourselves. 

759
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,320
We have to be vigilant with, 
with our, our kids, our young 

760
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:50,000
people in our lives, right? 
Because if we, if we aren't, we 

761
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,560
risk losing an entire generation
because we think about 

762
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,120
anti-Semitism in the most 
extreme forms, right? 

763
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,720
The Holocaust, genocide, mass 
violence, right? 

764
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:00,960
But it's a spectrum. 
And one of the ways that 

765
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,320
anti-Semitism operates is simply
by raising the cost of being 

766
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:11,400
Jewish, doing Jewish affiliating
Jewishly so high that Jews just 

767
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,320
start to opt out. 
You know it's not worth it if 

768
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,560
being openly and proudly Jewish 
and affiliating with Hilal on 

769
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,560
campus means I'm going to be 
called a baby killer every 

770
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,120
single day on campus, right? 
And subjected to the most ugly, 

771
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,760
nasty slurs and smears. 
At some point I might decide, 

772
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,040
you know what, it's not worth 
it, and I might start to opt 

773
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,720
out. 
I might take off my Star of 

774
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:35,720
David. 
I might stop identifying as 

775
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:38,520
Jewish, stop going to Jewish 
events, stop affiliating with 

776
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,120
Jewish organizations and so on. 
And we really risk losing an 

777
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,520
entire generation. 
But there's two parts to that 

778
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,240
equation, right? 
On the one hand, it's the cost 

779
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,280
of being Jewish, which 
anti-Semitism always seeks to 

780
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,280
raise that cost, right? 
Raise the price of entry into 

781
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,040
Jewish identity. 
But the other factor of that is 

782
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,800
counterbalanced by the value of 
being Jewish. 

783
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,320
In other words, Jewish people 
are willing to pay the price of 

784
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,480
being Jewish so long as what 
they get for their Jewish 

785
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,520
identity is something 
meaningful, valuable, right, 

786
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,080
that has utility for their life,
right? 

787
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,000
So that also is AI think a 
challenge to Jewish 

788
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,680
organizations to ensure that we 
have a Judaism, a Jewish 

789
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,960
culture, a Jewish communal 
infrastructure, programming, 

790
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,320
etc. 
That brings meaning to people's 

791
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,920
lives, that brings value into 
their lives, that helps them 

792
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,760
understand how to make their way
through the world, that gives 

793
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,880
them a sense of belonging, that 
gives them a sense of cultural 

794
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,720
richness and so on. 
If we don't do that again, we, 

795
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:39,920
we really risk losing an entire 
generation. 

796
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,680
And if we lose an entire 
generation, we risk losing it 

797
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,120
all right, because that line of 
continuity is so important. 

798
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,240
We've we've maintained this, the
Jewish story, we've written the 

799
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:52,320
Jewish story across generations,
right? 

800
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,880
And it would be such a shame if 
we close the book on the Jewish 

801
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,480
story in this generation. 
So my part of my mission is not 

802
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,520
to allow that to happen, right, 
To ensure that, you know, at 

803
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,320
minimum, right? 
For my part, I don't work on the

804
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,400
sort of cultural production side
of things. 

805
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,520
I don't work in, in a synagogue 
or a Jewish cultural 

806
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,240
institution. 
I work primarily in an 

807
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:14,720
institution that seeks to keep 
the price of being Jewish down, 

808
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:17,160
which is to say to fight 
anti-Semitism, right? 

809
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,680
And it's corollaries. 
But that is, you know, how I see

810
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,400
my mission, right, is to ensure 
that Jews live in an environment

811
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,440
where they can be Jewish and 
where the cost of being Jewish 

812
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,240
does not rise above the value 
that Judaism and Jewish identity

813
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:35,520
brings into people's lives. 
Vlad, what an honor to have you 

814
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,840
tell me how can people connect 
with you and learn more about 

815
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:39,920
your work? 
Sure. 

816
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,040
Thanks very much. 
Yeah. 

817
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,680
So I go through periods of being
active on on social media. 

818
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,400
I think recently I've been less 
active, but you know, I'm, I'm 

819
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,680
on Twitter X whatever it's 
called these days. 

820
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,120
You know, I'm, I'm on Instagram,
although I don't post much 

821
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,120
there, but you can connect with 
me through through the Simon 

822
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,440
Wiesenthal organization, 
wiesenthal.com. 

823
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,760
Come see us at the Museum of 
tolerance, right. 

824
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,960
Wiesenthal Center runs the 
Museum of tolerance in LA. 

825
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,840
We have a incredible new exhibit
going in slated to open in 2027.

826
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,960
This is an exhibit on 
contemporary anti-Semitism, 

827
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,240
right? 
We deliberated for some time, 

828
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:18,320
but we ultimately arrived at the
decision to focus on 

829
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,240
contemporary anti-Semitism, 
which is to say largely post 

830
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,920
1945, which is to say post 
Holocaust. 

831
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,720
We didn't want to do a 3000 year
retrospective on anti-Semitism 

832
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,200
because we didn't think that 
that's what the world needs 

833
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,160
right now. 
What the world needs is to 

834
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,760
understand the anti-Semitism 
that threatens Jewish 

835
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,400
communities today, not the 
anti-Semitism that threatened 

836
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,520
our great, great greats, right? 
And so the exhibit is really 

837
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,160
going to focus on the 
contemporary occurrence of 

838
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,480
anti-Semitism, including some of
the stuff that we've discussed 

839
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,480
today, right? 
Including the practical 

840
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,120
implications of anti Zionism, 
right? 

841
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,000
To show the story of what 
happened to Jewish communities 

842
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,520
in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon, 
right in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, 

843
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,520
etc. 
As well as of course the Soviet 

844
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,840
Union and the Eastern Bloc 
countries to show that story, 

845
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:06,880
right? 
To actually force people to 

846
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,120
reckon with the practical 
implications of anti Zionism. 

847
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:13,520
Not just again, it's, it's sort 
of self branding or self 

848
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,920
promotional content. 
So come, come see our exhibit 

849
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,480
when it opens next year. 
We, we really are working with 

850
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,520
some of the top contemporary 
scholars and thinkers on 

851
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:26,600
anti-Semitism, on various 
diasporic communities and, and 

852
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,440
how the events that ultimately 
led to this mass migration, 

853
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,720
right, this exodus from from 
around the anti Zionist world, 

854
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,560
how that all sort of unfolded. 
So it's a, it's going to be an 

855
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,240
incredible exhibit. 
I encourage all of you to come 

856
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:42,280
and check it out. 
And of course, you know, around 

857
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,920
the exhibit, we're also planning
a whole host of different 

858
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,800
events, panels, lectures, film 
screenings and so on. 

859
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,760
So it's really going to be, I 
think, a an important cultural 

860
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,960
moment. 
And we really hope to be able to

861
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,960
use the exhibit, you know, not 
just as a nice, you know, come 

862
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,040
and see it, but but really to to
begin to bring decision makers, 

863
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,760
institutional decision makers, 
community leaders to the exhibit

864
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,960
so that they hear the the story 
of the Jewish experience with 

865
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,920
contemporary anti-Semitism 
across the world, Right. 

866
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,400
And we hope that that they will 
also have the opportunity to 

867
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,520
hear directly from some of the 
people that lived it. 

868
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,760
Because again, there's millions 
of people alive today, be they 

869
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,080
Soviet Jews or be they Mizrahi 
Jews, who can tell you what it 

870
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,040
was like from personal 
experience to live in an anti 

871
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,840
Zionist society. 
And so we hope very much to 

872
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,440
bring that into the world and 
bring decision makers and 

873
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,480
communal leaders to the museum 
for this kind of experience so 

874
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,520
that they really understand what
it was like for Jews in practice

875
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,760
over the last century dealing 
with anti Zionist societies. 

876
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,560
If you need a panel moderator, 
call me, I will come to LA. 

877
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,560
Absolutely, Absolutely. 
I have one final question for 

878
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,040
you. 
It's one that I ask every guest.

879
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,960
Who would you like to nominate 
for People Jew want to? 

880
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,960
Know great question. 
Well, you've already had my my 

881
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,680
friend and colleague Melissa 
Mott on so that would be that 

882
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,440
would be one person I would 
recommend. 

883
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:08,800
You've had a lot of great 
guests. 

884
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,480
So a lot of people that that 
come to mind are folks you've 

885
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,240
already had. 
One person I might recommend to 

886
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:20,960
you is Y'all Feinberg are Y'all 
is a friend and a colleague, 

887
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,080
collaborator, a Co conspirator 
perhaps. 

888
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,840
He is the head of the the first 
graduate program in 

889
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,040
anti-Semitism studies at Gratz 
College. 

890
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,240
It's the first of its kind in 
the United States. 

891
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,640
And but more than that, a Y'all 
is building the field of 

892
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,760
anti-Semitism studies, which is 
so deeply important. 

893
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:45,200
You know, again, this is a field
that is very nascent in terms of

894
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,080
the research. 
It's really still in its early 

895
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:53,120
stages and y'all is is somebody 
who is broad minded enough to 

896
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,880
think beyond his own immediate 
institution and has really been 

897
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,960
somebody who has gone out and 
and sought to assist others who 

898
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,760
are looking to set up their own 
programs in the study of 

899
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,800
anti-Semitism. 
And I just can't say enough 

900
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,720
about how important that is 
because we really need in this 

901
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:13,880
fight people who really have a 
deep and sophisticated 

902
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,720
understanding of anti-Semitism 
beyond sort of the simple 

903
00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:20,040
platitudes of, you know, 
anti-Semitism is Jew hate. 

904
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,840
Because although rhetorically it
might be effective in certain 

905
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,080
contexts, it doesn't really help
us understand anti-Semitism in 

906
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,600
its complexity, in its mechanics
and dynamics and how it moves in

907
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,360
the world. 
So it's a really important thing

908
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,120
that he's doing. 
You know, I, I've agreed to 

909
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,080
serve on the faculty for, for 
the program at grads college and

910
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,640
of course support all the 
efforts to build the field. 

911
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,240
But I, I really think y'all 
would be a fun guest because 

912
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:50,360
he's not only incredibly 
knowledgeable, not only somebody

913
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,320
who's doing incredibly important
work, but also is a lot of fun. 

914
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,600
I think you guys are going to 
have a really a blast doing a 

915
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,120
podcast together. 
So if you'd like, I'm happy to 

916
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,840
make that introduction. 
Thank you so much, this has been

917
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:03,840
incredible as always. 
My mind is blown. 

918
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,320
You know I'm your biggest fan 
and I really appreciate your 

919
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,760
time today. 
This has been nothing short of 

920
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,360
iconic mic drop. 
My hat's off to you. 

921
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,080
Thanks for doing this. 
You're very kind. 

922
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,480
I really appreciate it. 
Thanks everyone. 

923
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:17,800
If you've enjoyed this podcast, 
please go ahead and rate US five

924
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,560
stars. 
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925
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,560
episodes by subscribing to 
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926
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,200
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927
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:27,880
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