1 00:00:14,980 --> 00:00:17,180 Hello everyone and welcome. Back to people. 2 00:00:17,220 --> 00:00:20,620 You want to know podcast? We are continuing our goal. 3 00:00:20,620 --> 00:00:23,180 You will enjoy season with Shay Kateri. 4 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:27,100 Shay is a researcher at the Committee for Accuracy in Middle 5 00:00:27,100 --> 00:00:30,620 East Reporting and Analysis, also known as CAMERA, and a 6 00:00:30,620 --> 00:00:32,900 senior fellow at the Yorktown Institute. 7 00:00:33,140 --> 00:00:36,660 His work focuses on Middle East policy, transatlantic relations, 8 00:00:36,660 --> 00:00:40,160 and military strategy. Shay grew up in Iran and left in 9 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:41,760 the aftermath of the Green Movement. 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,760 He's lived in Budapest, Hungary, where he was adopted by the 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,120 Israeli community before coming to the United States in 2014. 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,320 He and his bulldog Tank reside currently in Scottsdale, AZ And 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,360 if you invite him over for. Shabbat he will. 14 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:55,840 Turn off the lights before leaving. 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,240 Shay is truly a righteous gentile, an ardent supporter of 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,440 our community, and someone who knows more about Jewish life 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,880 than a lot of Jews out there. He's an outspoken, intelligent 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,760 Persian man who has. Thought. 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,400 Awful views on his heritage and the future of Iran. 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,280 I came across Shay thanks to a connection from ZE Silver, a 21 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,680 prior guest of the show, who specifically requested that I 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,520 bring Shay on to talk about Iran. 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,040 Obviously the political climate is challenging, ever evolving 24 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,560 and I thought that this would be a very timely conversation. 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,920 Please enjoy this episode. Hello Shay, welcome to People Do 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,360 Want to Know podcast. Thank you so much for being with 27 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,680 me here. Thanks for having me excited to 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,560 talk to you today. Where are you based in the 29 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,800 world? Scottsdale, AZ North Scottsdale. 30 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,080 That's very nice. It's extremely nice. 31 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,160 It is 78° right now and that's what we call a cold day. 32 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,520 Lovely, lovely. So I sit here looking outside. 33 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,280 It's like my I'm getting violated by cold wind every day. 34 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,120 I live in this area by the river and it's always very windy. 35 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,160 Anyway, I want to know, please tell us about yourself, what do 36 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:02,880 you do and how did you get there? 37 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:12,400 So I have two jobs. 1 is a full time job at camera Committee for 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,240 Accuracy in Middle East Analysis, Reporting and 39 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,960 Analysis. It's a Jewish organization and 40 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,480 what we do is usually we scan the press to see what has been 41 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,000 inaccurately stated in the press about Israel or the rest of the 42 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,640 Middle East or also the American Jewish community. 43 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,440 And we try our best to contact the press and correct them or 44 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,640 provide more accurate information on our own website. 45 00:02:42,640 --> 00:02:47,560 I'm new to this role and on top of it, I've been working as a 46 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,680 defense policy analyst at the Yorktown Institute for the past 47 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,920 several years. And variety of others think 48 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:58,680 tanks. How I got into this is that I 49 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,760 grew up in Iran, so I always say that I was the US foreign policy 50 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,280 and I had all kinds of thoughts about it. 51 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,280 When I moved to the USI decided I I care about the the stuff I 52 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,720 grew up in a political family and I decided to be involved. 53 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,480 I went to grad school studying defense policy and from their 54 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,600 God one job after another. Would you say your family was 55 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:27,000 always supportive of like Western values and being allies 56 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,800 to Israel in the Middle East? Is this something that was 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,520 ingrained in your family growing up? 58 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,400 Yes and no more So my parents met at the Iranian Communist 59 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:44,600 Party and I, I grew up in a very, very good you can write. 60 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,920 It's been the formal far left, most extreme, far left household 61 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,360 you can imagine. But it was a funny time. 62 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,960 I was born in 89 right before the Soviet Union fell and the 63 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,680 year that the the wall came down. 64 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:03,520 So it there was an element of communism has been defeated. 65 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,560 We have to reckon with reality that this might not have worked. 66 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,760 So my family was also going through that intellectually, 67 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,120 whether that will communism was the right idea or not. 68 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,360 They still were lefties, but there has been a tradition of 69 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,600 pro Israel socialists because Israel was founded as a 70 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,800 socialist state itself with a lot of help from the Soviet 71 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,320 Union. So that element always existed 72 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,600 in our household that they were pro Israel. 73 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:33,640 As for the United States, the feelings were more complicated. 74 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:39,120 Oddly enough, my family had set his mind on Israel much easier 75 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,200 than on the US. But as I was growing up, my 76 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,960 family, as I mentioned, was going through transformation. 77 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:46,240 They were reckoning with reality. 78 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,920 And also they really hated the regime. 79 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,080 And what they realized, they were both political prisoners, 80 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,040 my parents, I should say. So what they realized was that 81 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:58,360 at the end of the day, the United States is the biggest 82 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,880 enemy of the regime, which would make it different of the Iranian 83 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,840 people and my family. So they came to reality with 84 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:10,320 that. As for also general broader 85 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,840 values that we hold socially, again, I was raised atheist by 86 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:18,240 atheist parents. So socially they were always 87 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,720 very much, my dad studied when I lived and studied in Germany for 88 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,520 11 years, Germany and Austria. So and he went to an American 89 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,920 boarding school. So that was very much in tune 90 00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:34,920 with what I what I grew up with. Would you say that that's like 91 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,760 atypical for Iranian households? I feel like this is different 92 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,000 from what most Iranians grow up like. 93 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:49,880 Well, I would say when you're 12 and your father hands you does 94 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,280 capital, it's atypical for anyone. 95 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,400 But it was very atypical because again, it was a very political 96 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,600 family and it was a very opinionated family, which is to 97 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,280 say I grew up in the average Jewish household despite not 98 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:11,160 being a Jew, and opinionated, opinionated parents, which 99 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,560 really hammered that into me, to be very opinionated, always 100 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,960 arguing with each other in the most friendly and loving manner, 101 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,480 but fiercely. And it was an intellectual 102 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:28,680 house, which means that I could not go take 10 steps inside 103 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,080 their house without some books somewhere that was on on the 104 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,880 coffee table or on the dining table. 105 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:42,680 And it was also a very isolated upbringing because as you 106 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,600 mentioned, it was not the typical family it was growing up 107 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,360 with. So it was self selective in what 108 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,000 kind of people we could we would socialize with. 109 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,360 And there were not many people like us. 110 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,400 That's very interesting, and I'm sure that it posed a unique set 111 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:57,800 of challenges for you growing up. 112 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,440 I'm curious to know how did you end up being involved with, you 113 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,080 know, Jewish organization supporting an organization 114 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,160 responsible for combating misinformation and 115 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,040 disinformation about the Jewish people? 116 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,520 Like what brought you there? So in Iran I might have met a 117 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,520 Jew or not. I would never be able to tell 118 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,480 because Persian Jews are so assimilated you can never tell 119 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,280 them apart. I always contrast that with 120 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,400 Christian for recent immigrants from Armenia, for the most part, 121 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,120 and like recent meaning 100 years or something, you could 122 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,640 tell if someone's Armenian, Iranian, but for a Jew you could 123 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,040 never tell. So as far as I know, I never met 124 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,600 one until I moved to Budapest in 2011. 125 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,520 And there I had one important mission, which my dad told me 126 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,160 not to surround myself with Iranians. 127 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,200 He said, listen, you're going to another country. 128 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,040 You've been around Uranians enough, Go explore other 129 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,960 cultures. I meet other people, so I 130 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,200 randomly befriend this guy in my class. 131 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,040 I mean, it happens to be from the hobo South of Tel Aviv. 132 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,960 And I was adopted by the Israeli community as one of their own. 133 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,800 I always joke that they treated me so much like themselves, like 134 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,720 an Israeli, that they would even speak Hebrew around me as if I 135 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,160 as if I understood it. And they were my wonderful 136 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,080 friends. And I from there, I two years 137 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:26,120 later, I came to the US because of my politics and my interest. 138 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,760 I was also anti Islamic Republic and I'm a new conservative. 139 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,280 So there's a proud Jewish tradition of new conservatism. 140 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,000 I always ended up in a Jewish intellectual circles. 141 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:44,720 By chance. My favorite college professor is 142 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,680 Jewish and they can went to grad school. 143 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:51,880 All my professors were Jewish, and there was this friendship 144 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,880 that I always had with Jews. And it was this familiarity that 145 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,720 they're Jews are so much like Persians that I always felt like 146 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,760 I was around people I had grown up with. 147 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,360 And on top of that, there was also the work I do. 148 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,720 There was an alignment of missions, which is essentially 149 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,400 overthrowing the Islamic Republic. 150 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:17,880 And because of that, I ended up being around Jews organizations 151 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,000 and Iran Jews all the time, non-stop. 152 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,080 Having done the research that you've done and what you've seen 153 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,120 at camera so far, what do you make of the current situation 154 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,440 between like how Israel's framed in the West? 155 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,600 What are you seeing like giving an inside look into your 156 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,320 day-to-day a little bit? So this is not cameras view. 157 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,480 We don't have a have an official view, but this is something that 158 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,840 I've gone through my I've come across through my own work. 159 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:57,360 One is for the past 81 years, since 1945, Europe and North 160 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,600 America, North America, North America was never at war. 161 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,880 Even during World War 2, the war didn't come to the to North 162 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,080 America. So as a society, America has 163 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:12,240 never been has not been at war since the Civil War, same as 164 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,200 Canada even longer, and Western Europeans have not been at war 165 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:21,080 since 1945. Eastern Europe is different, but 166 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,280 because of this, there's just a lack of familiarity with warfare 167 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,760 and how it is that would when a nation is under siege. 168 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,920 Man for Israel's case constantly. 169 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,680 And on top of that, you add the historical, historical 170 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:39,280 background of Jews that have not just been out born, even when 171 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,840 they didn't have a country of their own, you didn't have a 172 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,080 country of your own. There was still always a 173 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,320 genocidal threat against Jews. So all these anxieties that 174 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,720 exist both for Israelis as Israelis, but also on top of it 175 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:59,040 before Israel as Jews, they just don't understand how it is that 176 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,160 it that have that affects the society. 177 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:06,640 I think that is a huge problem that people again, don't 178 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,360 understand war and don't understand the society at war. 179 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:12,600 And that the part that they don't understand war is also 180 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,720 very important because as I mentioned, I studied defense 181 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,640 policy, that I studied military strategy. 182 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:22,040 I like to joke that the for many people, the view is that 183 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,280 countries have a right to defend themselves. 184 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,320 That bar is just as long as countries are defending 185 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,080 themselves and nobody dies during the war. 186 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,600 And that's not how it works. So there is that. 187 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,800 The other element of it is going back to, you know, there was a 188 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,440 piece in the Economist today that really annoyed me that 189 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,640 talks about, oh, Israelis most reckon with this and that. 190 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,800 And this is the guy who obviously has never been to 191 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,920 Israel or that hasn't tried to understand Israel. 192 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,320 And they act as if Oslo peace, of course, and Intifada, second 193 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,040 interfada never happened, change the Israeli view. 194 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,640 And he says, oh, Israelis rejected the Palestinian, it's 195 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,800 already running Gaza. And the answer is, well, one, 196 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,440 they have a good reason to distrust the Palestinian 197 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,680 Authority and two, Palestinians already ran Gaza after the 198 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,080 withdrawal and then was overthrown by Hamas. 199 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:15,680 So there is just this fantasy idea of how the Middle East 200 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:19,720 could work from coming from people who have such European 201 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,760 temperaments or that they have never been to the Middle East or 202 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:29,280 try to understand the region. And it really bugs me because it 203 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,000 is fine to be ignorant. I just I get annoyed when people 204 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,720 are so confident that they are right in their ignorance. 205 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,680 This is making me think about Iran, obviously, and this is 206 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:40,800 what I really wanted to talk to you about. 207 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,680 You know, what has it been like for you as an Iranian, somebody 208 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:49,320 who's escaped the regime? On one hand, I hear from you, 209 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,720 you know, that you're against the regime, which makes sense. 210 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,320 On the other hand, I imagine it's also hard to watch what is 211 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,360 happening to the people and, you know, Iranians getting 212 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,280 slaughtered by the regime day in, day out. 213 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,840 And the coverage on that has really changed. 214 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,320 That conflict is not resolving perhaps and as expeditiously as 215 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,480 we might want. What do you make of that? 216 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,440 Just. On that you said, as an Iranian, 217 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,920 I think it's important for me to just explain my priors. 218 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,080 I always call myself Persian, not Iranian. 219 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,400 And I know that anybody from Los Angeles have heard this, but for 220 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,920 me specifically is a considered description because I hold 221 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,000 Iranian citizenship. I still don't hold American 222 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,760 citizenship, but as far like as far as my heart goes, I'm, I'm 223 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,400 American and Persian is my ethnicity, but Iran, Iranian is 224 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,720 a nationality that they don't, even though again, I am an 225 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,640 Iranian national, but I don't care for it much. 226 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,240 When I say I don't care for it much, I mean that I, I have 227 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,960 adopted the United States as my country and that's that. 228 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,560 Having said this, I still care about that country. 229 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:50,640 I have loved ones there. I grew up there. 230 00:13:51,160 --> 00:14:00,280 And what really bugs me is there has been decades of trying to 231 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:06,120 ignore Iran and both on the right and on the left, and I 232 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,000 mentioned I'm I'm on the right, but I see this all the time. 233 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,360 There's an unknownst understanding of Iran's 234 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,160 politics, domestic politics that begin obscures things more than 235 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,560 it explains. And on the other hand, 236 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,240 especially on the left, there is a misunderstanding of the 237 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,440 Iranian society, because this is a society that when the war 238 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:32,120 started, people were going to the rooftops and making BBQ, 239 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,920 drinking and cheering for the Israeli and American fighters. 240 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,840 And it is completely excusable that people cannot fathom and 241 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,640 understand or even imagine that a nation would go and celebrate 242 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:51,200 and invent A mating force. But I think it has to some 243 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,640 extent people have come to realize that this is the case 244 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,040 with Iran, but they still do not try to understand why it is that 245 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,880 Iranians arrive to this point that they would cheer for 246 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,200 foreign militaries as opposed against their own country. 247 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:15,800 And the answer I would give is you see a lot of talk about for 248 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:20,280 instance, how this is hugely because of economics that are 249 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,400 Iranians grievance or four years ago when the Maso and mini 250 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,640 protest broke out, people will talk about how this that was 251 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,480 about hijab. And the answer is that those are 252 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,360 all triggers. But revolutions happen because 253 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,160 of injustice, not because of one single issue, not because of 254 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,720 economics or anything else. And the real answer there, and 255 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,760 what people don't understand is that Iranians tried everything 256 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:53,840 to take agency of their own country, to have some control of 257 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,520 their lives. And they're living in a 258 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,800 totalitarian country, which means that it's not just 259 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,480 politics they cannot control about their own lives. 260 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,360 It's even the smallest things, even the smallest details of 261 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,840 your life is controlled by by the regime and you just become a 262 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,840 robot at some point. And they tried everything they 263 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,200 could, from participating in politics through the within the 264 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,120 regime's boundaries, civil disobedience, protest. 265 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:21,960 They tried everything and they failed. 266 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,640 And the last straw was January massacre, which accounts differ, 267 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,600 but up to 40,000 people might have been massacred over 4 days 268 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,960 in Iran. So and they just gave up. 269 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,080 They realized that one, they are powerless and two, the regime is 270 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,720 even more evil than they had thought. 271 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,760 So. But, you know, again, people 272 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,520 have a sense that Iranians really hate their government, 273 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,040 but they don't understand how it was that they became so 274 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,680 radicalized. And one last thing that really 275 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,360 bothers me is when people talk about how Iranians are a Muslim 276 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,960 nation or Iran is a Muslim country. 277 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:01,240 And I'm like, well, according to one poll, 30% that here Shiite 278 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,000 Muslims. So at this point, over half of 279 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,720 Iranians do not associate with any religion. 280 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,960 And I think that's also important, an important context 281 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,839 to realize that as Iranians are becoming more and more secular 282 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:17,000 and reject religion of any kind, they're living under a religious 283 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,599 government. Do you have any thoughts or 284 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,400 feelings around how you would want this thing to resolve 285 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,280 itself now? You're American and you're 286 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,840 Persian and you have vested interests in both places. 287 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:35,880 How do you hope it unwinds? Well, there is a way for you to 288 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,320 unwind that requires some fantasy thinking that I'd rather 289 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,200 not certainly do. As a serious policy person, I 290 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:50,120 think the most realistic way is for someone within the regime to 291 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:54,200 assert himself against the rest of the regime, and you're seeing 292 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,720 some. Sabotage. 293 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,040 That's a lovely theory that also everybody in Russia is waiting 294 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,840 for to play out. They hope the same. 295 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,840 Except that in Russia, Putin is still alive, and that was not 296 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,000 going to happen as long as Harmony was alive. 297 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,160 But he's dead now. So for someone, and this is not 298 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,600 going to lead to a liberal democracy in Iran, after the guy 299 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,880 arises, people, someone from within the regime who's going to 300 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,160 assert himself is not almost certainly not going to be a 301 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,200 Liberal Democrat. But at least it could be someone 302 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,040 who changes the direction of the regime that some civil society 303 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,800 is allowed to form, that Iran moves away from totalitarianism 304 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,320 into some form of acceptable authoritarianism. 305 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,200 And then that could itself then transform into a free society 306 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,160 within hopefully my lifetime, but at least some some country 307 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,040 that is decent for its own citizens and is aligned with the 308 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,680 United States and is at peace with the region. 309 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,720 We need to have a tour, folks. That's what I'm hearing here. 310 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,760 There is a question that was submitted by one of your loyal 311 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,760 fans and my friend Zach Silverman. 312 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,760 He was wondering if you could talk about and I think it would 313 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,320 be interesting for the listener as well. 314 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,880 The The History of Israel. And Iran, because we are looking 315 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,120 at history as it is evolving today, you know, the 316 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:15,960 relationship between Iran and Israel. 317 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,280 But behind the scenes, kind of in the background, there's 318 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,080 always been this rich history between Israel and Persia and 319 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,920 Israel and Iran, Persians and Persian Jews. 320 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:28,400 Can you give me some of the highlights? 321 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,560 What do you think would be interesting for people to know? 322 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:36,480 Well, first of all, hi, Zach. Second, you know when Iran's 323 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,400 Iranians usually trace the founding to Cyrus the Great? 324 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,880 And Cyrus is a meshiach, according to most in the Hebrew 325 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,520 Bible, and that is when the friendship starts. 326 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,880 I don't have to explain to your audience about Cyrus, but, and 327 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,360 that is also important because a lot of the Jews liberated from 328 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:01,920 Babylon reside in Iran and some say it's Yemen, but it's it's 329 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,720 between Iran and Yemen for the oldest Jewish diaspora community 330 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,880 in the world. Either way, after 2500 years 331 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,560 Persian Jews became entirely Persians, and Iranians were 332 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,760 completely familiar and friendly with Jews. 333 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,000 Now on top of it, Jews were always not even tolerate that. 334 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,720 They were just accepted as a part of the Iranian society in 335 00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:26,080 pre Islamic Iran to a point that when you go to the Sasani 336 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,960 dynasty that fell about 14-13 hundred years ago, Sasani 337 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,720 dynasty was an officially Zoroastrian state. 338 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,000 So Zoroastrianism was the state religion. 339 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,080 And yet there are some anecdotes I really like. 340 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,600 For instance, you read the ancient Iranian history and 341 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,720 Christians had a serious grievance against the 342 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,280 Zoroastrian state, and that was that you're not letting us 343 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,160 persecute Jews. And there was a book a few years 344 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,320 came out a few years ago called about the Persian Talmud. 345 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,800 And it's literally about the Talmudic debates in Iran, a lot 346 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,320 of it between Zoroastrians and and Jewish rabbis. 347 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,040 But so again, this is the state religion. 348 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,320 But what's funny to me is that Jewish rabbis, I feel 349 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,680 comfortable telling these Rasan clerics, the magi, that no, your 350 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,920 religion is wrong. And let me explain to you, it's 351 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,880 not something that Jews could do in most countries. 352 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,200 They were, they lived. And it's not like Jews could 353 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:30,880 ever go to, in medieval Europe to a priest or to it, to an imam 354 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,560 in an Arab society saying that, well, I think that your religion 355 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,560 is wrong and mine is right. Let me explain to that. 356 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,440 Well, can I add, there was a time in history that was 357 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,840 documented where somebody in I believe, medieval Spain, the 358 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,760 priests organized a debate between the Jews and the 359 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,920 Christians on who was right and who was wrong. 360 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,760 And apparently, as is documented, the Jews kind of won 361 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,360 because they were more compelling. 362 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,560 And they still were, you know, killed because they're like, 363 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,640 yeah, no, no. What what's worse, if you win 364 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,160 the debate or if you lose it in that situation? 365 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,440 Yeah, exactly. So that was the history. 366 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:14,720 Even after the Arab conquest of Iran, the Jews still left her 367 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,800 and were part of the society. But obviously at some point 368 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:22,240 relationship became a little bit more antagonistic, especially in 369 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,600 recent hundred, 150 years under especially under the culture and 370 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,480 dynasty. But again, it was not perfect, 371 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,800 but it was better than most other countries for Jews. 372 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,800 At the end of the day, Jews are always going to have it best 373 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,760 either in America or in Israel. But Iran would qualify as top 374 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,400 five places to live historically for Jews. 375 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:52,360 But then even today that you have a you have a anti Jewish, 376 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,440 anti Zionist evil regime in Iran. 377 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,200 You should keep in mind that officially, I'm not talking 378 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,320 about their practices. Officially they still say that 379 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,360 truths are accepted as a respectable religion and they 380 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:11,360 are an Abrahamic religion and we give them freedom of worship. 381 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:14,880 Now, in practice it's very different, but it's because part 382 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,040 of it is religious ideology of the region, but part of it is 383 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:23,440 also that it is very difficult for the regime to persecute Jews 384 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,520 because of the somewhat protection that Jews have 385 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,880 received from the Iranian society. 386 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,720 So even today it could be much worse for Jews inside Iran if 387 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,240 not for that historical friendship that first of all, 388 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,200 not I wouldn't even say historical friendship, that 389 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,320 being historically part of Iran, I don't even want to say 390 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,960 historical friendship because that would say mean that they 391 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,360 are not Iranian, which they are. So those are some of the 392 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:54,280 highlights for me personally. And one last thing is that when 393 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,120 you now when you come to today, right now, the Iranian society 394 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:01,800 losing the diaspora and inside Iran and Iran is 90 million 395 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,720 people. There are a lot of you haters in 396 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,640 Iran for sure and other all kinds of opinions. 397 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,120 But I don't want to pretend as if this is the entire society. 398 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,680 But when you look at the diaspora and inside Iran after 399 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,200 Israel itself, Iran is the most a pro Israel nation in the 400 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,920 Middle East, maybe 50%, but 50% is much higher than any anywhere 401 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,600 else. And also there's an element of 402 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,360 the cutting of history that we liberated Jews 2500 years ago 403 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:36,560 and now Jews are going to do it for us to liberate us. 404 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,280 So there is also one an element to of looking at Jews as the 405 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,800 savior of the Iranian people today against the regime. 406 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,040 And when you look at when the joint force killed harmony on 407 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:54,920 February 28th, Iranians and Israelis were on the street 408 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,040 together in London and other places playing singing Persian 409 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,240 songs and Hatikvah. So you see that even in 410 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,720 diaspora, something that is quite unique. 411 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,960 I don't think that there's any ethnic community in anywhere in 412 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,960 the world that is as Jewish friendly as Iranians are right 413 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,360 now. As you were speaking, I was 414 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:18,960 thinking actually about when it comes to some of the other Arab 415 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,080 nations and their relationship to Israel specifically. 416 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,680 This will be a very boiled down over generalized statement from 417 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,920 my part, but I understood that typically the Arab nations, I'm 418 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,880 talking about Egyptians, Jordanians, a lot of those 419 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,960 people have the notion that, well, this land was never for 420 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,480 the Jews. Like, sure, they might have 421 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,560 controlled it at another point in time, but by the time of the 422 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,800 founding of the state of Israel, that was Arab land. 423 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,000 Whether it was Palestinian or not doesn't matter. 424 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,320 It was Arab land and now it belongs to the Palestinian 425 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,560 people. They are the Arabs that live in 426 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,680 that land. The Jews never had a claim to 427 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,080 it. And that's kind of where the 428 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,040 animosity stems from, is this belief that from the very 429 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,640 outset, the Jews were never entitled to this land to begin 430 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,480 with. But it doesn't seem that this 431 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,000 sentiment kind of translated as much to Iran. 432 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,480 And I wonder why. Is it as simple as the fact that 433 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,760 there was such a Jewish community in Persia that it 434 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,920 humanized, you know, Jews to Iranians and Persians? 435 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:31,200 Or is it something else? Well, first, you said yourself, 436 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,080 they say the Arabs say that this was Arab land and Iranians are 437 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,400 not Arab, so they don't have any claim to the land to begin with. 438 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,600 So it's not like they're giving up anything. 439 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,520 And that is important for the average Arab. 440 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,120 They think that they are giving up something and Iranians don't 441 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:46,960 have that sentiment. There's that. 442 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:52,160 There's also an element of Muslim tribalism that Iranians 443 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,080 had when they were more religious. 444 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,080 And as they have stopped being religious. 445 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,120 So they, if anything, more than Muslim tribalism, you have a 446 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,760 hostility toward Muslims in Iran, especially among anti 447 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,960 regime Iranians. So there's that. 448 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,520 And again, going back to what they said, third one is Arabs 449 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,280 are not going to come to save us, but Jews might. 450 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,440 So we're on the side of Jews and Israel here. 451 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,840 There's that too. And the last one is Iranians are 452 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,440 just, there's no better way of saying it. 453 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,040 They're quite racist against Arabs. 454 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,800 And if you go back and there's a very easy historical explanation 455 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,920 for this, because Iranians were Arabized and there were 1000 456 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,880 years ago. How Iranians, the Arabized 457 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,920 themselves was through an epic poem. 458 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,680 It's the longest epic poem in the world, I believe, the Book 459 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,680 of Kings. And that was the key to telling 460 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:48,360 the mythical history of Iran and the Arabizing Iran and reviving 461 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:52,160 the Persian language. But in it, Arabs are the 462 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,040 villains. They're the only villains. 463 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,800 And it is very anti Arab if you read it. 464 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,720 And because of that, that has stuck with Iran, with Iranians. 465 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:06,520 But there's nothing bad to read about Jews in in that a mythical 466 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,680 poem and that became part of the Iranian national character. 467 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,920 So there is that animosity too, that Iranians have. 468 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,200 Do you have a good sense of what percentage of people are anti 469 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,280 regime in Iran Isn't known. Everything I say is pre war, 470 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,760 okay. I don't know how the war is 471 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,480 going to change the trends in Iran. 472 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,280 Core of the support for the regime was 15% give or take. 473 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,520 This is not to say that 85% were entirely anti regime. 474 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,640 There would be 10-15 maybe even 20% of the population that I 475 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,520 would say closer to 10%. And you'd be familiar with this 476 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,000 like the Russians who are very status. 477 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,560 They will support any state of the country for Russia 478 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,520 regardless of the character of that state. 479 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,240 That would be about 10% of Iranians like that. 480 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,360 We're not pro or anti Islamic Republic. 481 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,360 This is the government we have and we will defend it. 482 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,880 But that would be more. We will defend it, we will defer 483 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,160 to it in Iran. We will defend it against a 484 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,040 foreign enemy and we would sit on the sideline if people are 485 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,960 going to try to overthrow the regime, not that they would 486 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,600 defend it against the Iranian people. 487 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:28,000 You'll be in on solid ground to say that 60 to 75% of Iranians 488 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:35,880 would do from going to protest to just sacrifice their lives to 489 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,880 overthrow the regime or at least vote against it in the ballot 490 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,040 box. But 60 to 75% anti regime of 491 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,680 some those of radicalism is probably correct. 492 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,720 What do you think are the most helpful things that Americans 493 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,000 can do right now in light of the climate? 494 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,280 Well, first, most Iranians don't have Internet connection. 495 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,600 About 30% of Iranians have satellite compatible phones. 496 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,120 But the problem is that you need a compatible carrier for that 497 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,600 too. That's because of AUS government 498 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,680 regulation that could be lifted by an executive order. 499 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:13,800 It doesn't even need to be a law. 500 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,000 So it would be awesome if the US government just waived that 501 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,040 executive order like we did in North Carolina during Hurricane 502 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,160 Helene for Iranians with those types of phones to have access 503 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,240 to the Internet just So even if you want them to mobilize 504 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,080 against the regime and take the take the streets, they need 505 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,920 Internet connection. So that would be very helpful. 506 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,680 And also I miss my loved ones and I'd like to talk to them, 507 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,680 but that's mostly self-serving. The other part of it is just try 508 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:52,040 to not forget that this issue still exists because it will be 509 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,960 very easy with other headlines in the news. 510 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,120 Midterms are coming up, XY and Z, and I'm sure there will be a 511 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,040 new controversy every week once this war is over. 512 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,160 But the struggle of the Iranian people is not going to be over. 513 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,120 And keep that in mind. Occasionally you just see what's 514 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,440 happening and try, if something comes up, try to talk with 515 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,280 people around you about it. And just keep in mind that this 516 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,440 evil regime is remains evil. I think that just a 517 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,120 consciousness of of that would be very helpful. 518 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,640 Now that you've spent so much time engaging with the Jewish 519 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,160 community and working for camera, doing all this work to 520 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,120 support your allies, I'm wondering if your perception of 521 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:42,000 Jews has changed at all. No, I didn't have any perception 522 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,360 of Jews when I first encountered my Israeli friends. 523 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,840 The only thing that was that I remember I was at home, I was 524 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,000 talking and something came out. I just used the word Jew hood 525 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,440 and I did not know that. I had just heard that referred 526 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,160 to Jews and I thought that that's what you call them. 527 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,560 And my dad, who was a very easy, chill guy, never suddenly got so 528 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,920 serious as I never used that word again. 529 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,240 That's a slur. Just called him Yahoo D. 530 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,600 That's what you should. And it was just to give you a 531 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,920 sense of the not perception, but just that there was no negative 532 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,800 connotation when it came to Jews. 533 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,640 It's not like Jews were a present part of the conversation 534 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,280 at the house, but the few times that Jews would come up, it was 535 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,280 never negative. So I'm sorry, you probably are 536 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,800 hearing my dog in the background. 537 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,520 So there was no perception when I first met Jews. 538 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,120 It was just these are people. Oh, these are people who are 539 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,440 very much like me. Oh, these are really fun friends 540 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,920 to have. Oh wait, I'm at Shabbat now and 541 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,480 it's complete freaking chaos and people are yelling over each 542 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,080 other and that feels so much like how I grew up and I never 543 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,160 want to leave the community ever again. 544 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,000 So the one thing I will say this actually, the one thing, it was 545 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,000 never a perception, but it was a stereotype that you would hear 546 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:09,440 that Jews are cheap. And boy, if Jews were cheap, I 547 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,800 would probably be on the side of some street right now dead 548 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:23,320 because I just financial and non financial time kindness. 549 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,600 Any type of Jewish charity that you can imagine, I've been the 550 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,160 recipient of. And I will never forget how much 551 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,960 I'm in that in in that to Jews. So that that is the one thing 552 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,560 that it's not shocking to me that this stereotype was wrong. 553 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,400 It's just shocking to me that Jews are not like everybody 554 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,200 else, but they are extremely charitable to a point that the 555 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,800 only parallel I've ever seen are Mormons, that those are the two 556 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,280 most charitable people I've ever met in my life, and it's not 557 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,360 even close. You know, that's so nice to 558 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,560 hear, honestly. And as I was thinking about it 559 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:06,480 like we really need people like you because the reality is your 560 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,360 upbringing influenced your vision and understanding of 561 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,320 Jewish people in Israel. But many people don't have this 562 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,400 upbringing so they come in with clear preconceived notions of 563 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,199 what Jews are or not what Israel is or is not. 564 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,040 Do you have any advice for Jews on how they can build bridges 565 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:28,120 with non Jews? Be yourselves and if you just be 566 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,120 around non Jews and they will see who Jews are for themselves, 567 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:33,840 you don't have to do anything special. 568 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,520 Jews are lovely people and as long as they're just being 569 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,400 themselves around non Jews, just the one thing is that you need 570 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,159 to be around Gentiles. That's that's the one thing. 571 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:49,120 There's no messaging or ad campaign that needs to be nice, 572 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,320 just that Gentiles need to be exposed in real life to 573 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,040 three-dimensional Jews who are walking and talking with them. 574 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,920 Okay, and as part of this go you will enjoy segment. 575 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:05,720 Every guest gets to ask me and you a question about anything, 576 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,400 you know, Jewish related, my opinion, anything that I can 577 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,160 answer. As a Jewish person, you know 578 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,360 everything there is to know about Judaism, Jewish people, 579 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,680 history, religion. So I know it's tough for you to 580 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,760 come up with something, but is there anything that comes to 581 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,200 mind for you that you would like to ask? 582 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:23,400 Me. Yeah, actually, where do you 583 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:24,800 live again? New York. 584 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,240 I'm not going to ask you about your personal politics, but just 585 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,640 I would imagine that you might have been surprised by a lot of 586 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,880 things after October 7. No, I was not surprised. 587 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,400 OK, you were not surprised, so how about your friends? 588 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,080 You know, I had different kinds of friends. 589 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,600 I think there I had friends that were a little delusional about, 590 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,960 you know, what the progressive left feels about Jewish people. 591 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,720 Whereas somebody like me looked at it in 2020 during BLM, when 592 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:55,640 BLM nobody asked them to do this. 593 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,560 This wasn't relevant. Took a position for BDS, right? 594 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,400 They didn't have to do that, but they chose to do that. 595 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,160 And the question is why? So by October 7th I was already 596 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,560 excluded and alienated from a lot of those progressive causes 597 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,000 because I wasn't willing to let them make me into a doormat as a 598 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,000 Jew and a pro Israel person. But on the other hand, there are 599 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,720 friends I have that weren't surprised like me, and they also 600 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,320 felt kind of ostracized and pariahed out of those spaces, 601 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,520 so. Generally among Gen. 602 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,840 Z and young millennials, millennial Jews who would be 603 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:35,080 around a lot of progressives, how much reconsidering is there? 604 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:39,480 And I think that could include, by the way, that deciding to 605 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:43,440 stick with the progressive left as opposed to embracing their 606 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,040 Jewish identity and just abandoning that or, as my friend 607 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,800 Eli Lake says, doing as a Jew to condemn Jewish survival as a 608 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,320 Jew. Like, tell me, what's the 609 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,800 landscape among young Jews about their place in young America? 610 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,400 Well, there's what I feel and what I experienced given my 611 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,480 circle, and then there's what the numbers say. 612 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,040 So in terms of what I feel and my inner circle, for the most 613 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,360 part, people have doubled down on being Jewish. 614 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,240 I'm not friends with any as a Jews, but when you look at the 615 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:17,560 numbers you're seeing that the as a Jew proportion year over 616 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,000 year is increasing, which means that it's regardless of what I 617 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,680 experienced, the effect is happening in the other direction 618 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,440 and that's the big concern for Jewish organizations today. 619 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,920 Now there are reasons as to why that is happening right and what 620 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,440 can be done to maybe stop it or reduce the total percentage. 621 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:44,800 I think a big driver of it is there were unaffiliated, kind of 622 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:50,080 like secular cultural Jews, who didn't feel strongly about it 623 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,120 one way or the other. But then when it actively became 624 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,360 dangerous or a threat or inconvenient to be Jewish and 625 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,080 Zionist, the cost was so high that they decided to opt out, 626 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,480 right? It was a path of least 627 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,280 resistance. I cannot live with myself if 628 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,680 that is what I were to do. I feel it is a privilege to be 629 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,000 born a Jew and I have been given a gift in this life to be a Jew 630 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,960 and to be part of this tribe, if you will. 631 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,440 Other people do not feel so strongly about their identity 632 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,640 and opt out. I actually have a semi tongue in 633 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,480 cheek joking semi joking advice here. 634 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,600 When you see that that kind of Jew, you should not yell at 635 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:31,840 them. You should just pick up the 636 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,920 phone and call their parents. And just like who raised this 637 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,880 person who who is yell at the parents like that? 638 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,760 That is absolute parental failure. 639 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,840 Parental failure right there. Well. 640 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,480 I want to tell you a little bit more about that. 641 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,360 So I'm a Russian speaking Jew, right? 642 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,400 It's Jews that came from the former Soviet Union. 643 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,680 And for the most part, Russian speaking Jews are all, you know, 644 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,920 like centrist to right wing. A a lot of Russian speaking Jews 645 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,640 vote Republican and they teach their kids to support, you know, 646 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,960 capitalism, to support Western values. 647 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,720 And, and for a large chunk of Russian speaking Jews, after 648 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:12,200 October 7th, as a form of rebellion against their parents, 649 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,120 they've become this kind of woke left. 650 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,320 And it really is a pain to the parents. 651 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,520 It's heartbreaking to the parents of these kids who came, 652 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,440 you know, from a country where they only had, you know, a loaf 653 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,880 of bread or however dramatic you want to be about it, to see 654 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,640 their kids have every opportunity in the world to 655 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,960 become successful. And this is what you chose. 656 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,000 You chose to be the purple hair. Good girl. 657 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,360 You know with the kafia. It is absolutely heartbreaking. 658 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,480 Yeah, I have nothing to say then. 659 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,040 It's just, well, the I like your. 660 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,080 Question. Thanks. 661 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,760 The good news is that I guess growing up in Iran has its 662 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,240 benefits. I guess you get a dose of 663 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:57,000 reality before moving to the US. Well, yeah. 664 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,880 And I think that it's becoming more apparent to me as I get 665 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,080 older too, that. Even though I have lived in 666 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,200 America for most of my life and I'm an American citizen, I came 667 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,800 to this country when I was 9. Most of my formative years are 668 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,000 here. There is a certain kind of 669 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,080 privilege and ignorance, either willful or unwillful, that a lot 670 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:23,760 of American Jews have about what life is really like for Jews in 671 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,760 other parts of the world. And this like PC culture, it's 672 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,080 on the decline because in some sense we overcorrected. 673 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,120 And for people that come from places in the world like I do, 674 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,880 where there's severe anti-Semitism, crime, you know, 675 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:45,000 war and ruin, you never have the privilege of being PC because 676 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,240 it's your survival is dependent on it. 677 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,160 Obviously a big part of it is just the Jewish question, to 678 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:57,600 quote Karl Marx, but the other part of it is it doesn't end 679 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,520 with the question of Jews. I mean, a lot of it is the 680 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,560 resentment of everything that is that exists. 681 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,000 And you mentioned you being an immigrant. 682 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,560 It's just I could never fathom not loving this country because 683 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,320 of how awesome it is. Like robbing your Don. 684 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:13,800 I living in Hungary. Let me just give you one 685 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,520 example. So in Hungary, mostly randomly, 686 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,320 I ended up living in the Jewish quarter. 687 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:25,080 And I was once walking on on the street and this guy, this 688 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,280 Hungarian guy, just locks eyes with me as I'm passing him and 689 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:33,840 just spits on me for no reason. And we couldn't figure out 690 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,160 whether he did it because I'm Middle Eastern or because he 691 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,880 thought I was Jewish or because he was just an asshole. 692 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,120 But I have cousins in Europe all over. 693 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,760 I would stay with them, I travel with them. 694 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,920 And it was quite obvious that even the most respectable 695 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,080 immigrants in Europe is still going to be an immigrant in 696 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,720 Europe. And then I came here, some not 697 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:03,920 so humble bragging gear. Just last month. 698 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,680 Last month, I was at a round table at the think tank, and 699 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,480 there was the former chief of Naval Operation, former 700 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,320 commandant of the Marine Corps, former commander of the Fifth 701 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,800 Fleet and other people. And there was me and we were 702 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,680 talking about US, India policy and nobody treated me as an 703 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,960 outsider, but he was interested in what I had to say as much as 704 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,160 anybody else. Not that I'm an immigrant or 705 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,160 anything, even though I don't even have citizenship. 706 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,120 And that is something that only would happen in this country. 707 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,880 That is something only I could an immigrant could only have in 708 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,600 this country. So I look around and I not 709 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,200 saying that America is a utopia because utopia doesn't exist on 710 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,880 Earth, but it is as good as I could ever imagine. 711 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,120 It's even better than what they could imagine. 712 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,680 Now to people that you talk about, it's not just Jews they 713 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,080 don't like. It's not just Israel they don't 714 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,240 like. They don't like this country 715 00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:58,760 either. They hate this country. 716 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,200 They resent it. And I could never understand 717 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,200 that. I could never understand how 718 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,680 someone could hate this country unless they they know of no 719 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,320 other country and. And that's why they hate it, 720 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,800 because they don't know other countries. 721 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,840 And you know, going to Vienna as a as an American tourist doesn't 722 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,760 count as knowing another country because. 723 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,160 Yeah, like studying abroad. Yeah, that's not knowing another 724 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,120 country. Try being me in Europe. 725 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,800 Try being a minority in Europe as opposed to a wealthy American 726 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,800 tourist. I will never forget one of my 727 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,360 favorite stories about visiting Russia was when we went to this 728 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,240 famous museum. It's called Ermitage. 729 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,680 It was a RIP off of the Versailles Palace. 730 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,240 And when we came in, you know, there's a big pavilion, and 731 00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:44,720 there are staff sitting there watching to make sure nobody 732 00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:47,680 touches the paintings. And as we come in with my 733 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,480 family, one of the staff looks at my father. 734 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,320 And in Russia, she goes, oh, Sir, be careful. 735 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,360 There are pickpockets in this room. 736 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,400 Be careful. And my dad looks at her and he 737 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,800 goes, wait, if there are pickpockets in this room, why 738 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,640 don't you kick them out, right, so that they don't rob anybody? 739 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,960 And she goes well, the problem is that if we kick them out, new 740 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,560 pickpockets will come and we won't know what they look like, 741 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,160 so we can't stop them. But at least these ones are 742 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:19,400 known, right? That is amazing. 743 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,560 Yeah, and that's a great metaphor for other countries and 744 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,160 being an immigrant to America from the former Soviet Union. 745 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,840 Anyway, tell me, how can people connect with you and keep up 746 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,000 with your work? I am on Mostly active on 747 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,320 Twitter, occasionally on Instagram and my handle is at 748 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:43,800 Shakatiri SHAYKHATIRI. You can also find my work on 749 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:51,480 camera websites and where I blog regularly, and also on the 750 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,880 Yorktown Institute website where and Middle East Forum where I'm 751 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,840 a contributor. Those are the places I publish 752 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,680 my or I publish or aggregate my more policy oriented pieces. 753 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,720 And yeah, just Google my name. Occasionally something might pop 754 00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:08,440 up. Thanks so much, this has been a 755 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,280 delight. I've loved meeting you and I 756 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,600 really appreciate the chance to Share your story. 757 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,400 You are a true boy. You will enjoy. 758 00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:18,000 Thank you. If you've enjoyed this podcast, 759 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,000 please go ahead and rate US five stars. 760 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,640 Be the first to hear our episodes by subscribing to 761 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,440 PEOPLE Do you want to know wherever you get your podcasts? 762 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,880 And for exclusive content, follow us on Instagram at People 763 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:29,560 Do You. Want to know?