1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,120 Hello everyone, I'm Diane Griselle. 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,440 I'm also known as Silver Disobedience to a lot of you. 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,600 This is the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics podcast and 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,520 we're recording at iconic Manhattan Center in New York 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,560 City. Today we're going to take a deep 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,880 dive into a topic that's a serious one. 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,120 We're going to be talking about eating disorders, and my guest 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:30,440 today is Maureen Kritzer Lang. She is a psychoanalyst who 9 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:36,120 specializes in this topic. Eating disorders, bulimia, 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:42,960 anorexia, orthorexia. These affect men and women, lots 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:48,560 of them, and they're mired in all kinds of just judgments. 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,640 There are societal issues to them and we're going to explore 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,240 them and look at what leads to them, what makes them so 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,880 insidious. Why do people hide them? 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,600 And with that, we're going to start with Maureen talking about 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:12,680 your podcast, your let's get the title straight, the Your Hidden 17 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,280 Life with an Eating Disorder. It's actually called My secret 18 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,520 Life with an eating disorder, Diane. 19 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,920 Yes, Maureen, where did that? It's a compelling title. 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,000 It's certainly an interesting topic. 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,120 It got my attention. What's the catalyst behind that? 22 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,880 Well, first of all, I am very excited to be here to talk about 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,880 this, so thank you very much for having me. 24 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:39,800 You're welcome. It's my pleasure. 25 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,960 Thank you. So my secret life with an eating 26 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:52,040 disorder came about because I had a terrible debilitating 27 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,520 eating disorder that lasted probably from the time I was 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,200 about. I can get chills talking about 29 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:05,080 it 1415 years old until I was almost 30 and for most of that 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:11,120 time it was a secret. I always looked good. 31 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,280 I was a high achiever. I was like that type A 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:21,560 personality, so people didn't know that I had an eating 33 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,200 disorder. My family did not know I had an 34 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,760 eating disorder. Can I ask eating disorder what 35 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,680 does? How are you defining what you 36 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,720 were dealing with? Because were you anorexic? 37 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,680 Were you bulimic? Were you throwing up what you 38 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:36,800 ate? What were you doing? 39 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,480 Well, I want to just say that eating disorders are on a 40 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,800 spectrum, right? So it's not just like the DSM, 41 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,280 you know, the diagnostic book that we use, which is your 42 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,840 anorexic, your bulimic, you have orthorexia, it can shift, it can 43 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,440 be a combination, it can be just disordered. 44 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,120 It can start off as disordered eating, which is just kind of 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,000 many, many people have, which is just worrying about what they're 46 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,600 eating, being super careful, being restrictive, just really 47 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,960 worrying a lot about food and how they look. 48 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,440 Now for me, I will just start with a little bit of my story, 49 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,560 which is that I was, well, first of all, I just wanted to say I'm 50 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,320 from the Midwest. I'm from Dayton, OH, and I grew 51 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,840 up in a privileged family and I'm the oldest of four kids. 52 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,960 And it really looked like we were sort of the quintessential 53 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,320 sixties, 70s family on TV. My father was an obstetrician 54 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,600 gynecologist. My mother was like the perfect 55 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:51,600 wife, mother looked perfect. And around 13 or 14, I felt like 56 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,040 I was just getting fat. And I never, I never was. 57 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,720 And I was starting to just I was going into junior high school 58 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,000 and I was just, we had just moved to a new big house that my 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,600 parents had designed. Do you, do you mind if I stop 60 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:10,520 either? Sure, you said to. 61 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,720 You said I felt I was getting fat. 62 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Now, obviously, when you go retroactively to how you felt 63 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,040 when you were 13, there you particularly as a psychoanalyst, 64 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,640 know you might not recall that feeling exactly. 65 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,480 It's what you think you may have felt at that point of time. 66 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,480 Did you start to feel a little out of control? 67 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:37,320 Because I think there's a lot of tie between eating disorders and 68 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,800 a sense of wanting to control. And you hit 13, you're hitting 69 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,760 puberty, you've got sexual hormones gracing through your 70 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,920 body, which, whether people confront them or not, is, you 71 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,600 know, there, there's just biology happening. 72 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,560 You are changing shape one way or another. 73 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,360 Your skin might be breaking out. So I think there's a lot of 74 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,840 other things beyond that. Somebody starts to think they're 75 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:07,000 feeling fat. What do you say to that? 76 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:13,080 Well, I think you raised some really good points there because 77 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:19,960 things were starting to feel out of control in my family and I 78 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:22,320 again, was feeling very insecure. 79 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,120 But I will say that I started noticing some stretch marks. 80 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,680 And what I feel like maybe maybe people will talk about it a 81 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:38,720 little more now, but back then, because this was in the 70s, so 82 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:44,560 way back when, nobody said what you just said, which is that as 83 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,440 we start developing, our bodies change. 84 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,720 So you go, you know, I was going from this like, you know, kind 85 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,440 of thin young girl to starting to develop hips and a sense of 86 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,920 curviness. And I just thought I was getting 87 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,680 fat. So I told my mom that I wanted 88 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,840 to lose weight and I had investigated like a local Weight 89 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:10,840 Watchers kind of place. Oh yeah, those were the days of 90 00:06:10,840 --> 00:06:13,920 Lucille Roberts. Weight Watchers both sit on that 91 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,920 machine that would vibrate. My babysat after school for 92 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,040 someone who did. That right yes yes, yes, yes, 93 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:21,600 yes yeah, yeah. So I. 94 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,680 Stillman Diet. Atkins Diet. 95 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:26,960 The grapefruit diet. The grapefruit has all of those 96 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,600 like drinking the cabbage. I don't know all those like 97 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:35,120 horrible diets, but I there was, it was a local, local Weight 98 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,720 Watchers. It wasn't Weight Watchers, but a 99 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,720 local like weight loss kind of place. 100 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,080 And I asked my mom if she would take me and she said yes. 101 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,600 And looking back, I think what was she actually thinking? 102 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:55,080 Because I was really not that, you know, whatever that means. 103 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,640 But on the other hand, I was, I was. 104 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,520 We had moved and it was a new school again. 105 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,840 I didn't feel like I fit in. Can I ask you a question looking 106 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:09,720 back on that, if you could try to get in touch with those 107 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:15,600 emotions? How did it feel when your mother 108 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,240 agreed? With you, I was glad you were 109 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,120 glad back then because again, I really believe that I needed to 110 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,640 lose weight. But I will also say that I felt 111 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,800 like if I lost weight, I would be prettier, smarter, more 112 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,120 popular, fit in. I believe that being skinnier 113 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:40,600 would change my life. So when she said yes, I was, I 114 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,280 was so happy. And The thing is, she took me to 115 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,800 this place and I was the youngest person there. 116 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,600 It was all people my mom's age that were there. 117 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:57,960 And I learned to count points or do exchanges and, and I got 118 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:04,440 really, really good at it. So I want to share because I 119 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,160 think this is important too. As a younger, a young girl, I 120 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:14,360 was very creative and I was in theater and I was involved in 121 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,400 dance and I would make up stories, I would write stories. 122 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,600 I would spend a lot of time just in my own head, my own 123 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,560 imagination. But looking back, I can see my 124 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:29,400 world shifting from getting away from my creativity to focusing 125 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,600 on food and calories and my body. 126 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,480 Do you also think because when you see younger people and 127 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,520 you're trying to find your identity, you're trying to 128 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,760 separate from your parents and in between your thirteens and 129 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,000 particularly at least your 20s, I mean, you like don't want to 130 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,080 even know. Most kids don't want to even 131 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,680 know their parents. They're embarrassed when their 132 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:52,400 parents come to school events. You know, maybe those 133 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,600 exceptional kids that don't feel that way, but it's a pretty 134 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,120 normal formal development pattern. 135 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:07,400 When you're thinking in terms of that control, that creative 136 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:13,920 aspect that you went from more creative to more focused on 137 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,520 food. Do you think some of your 138 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,280 creativity was involved in that as well 'cause I do think it is 139 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,200 with people with getting. Disorders. 140 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,880 I think that's a really good point. 141 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,360 Yes. I think I channeled it in a 142 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:34,080 whole different way, but it was rigid and it was super focused 143 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:40,560 to the point where, and again, I, I really, my mom was young 144 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,440 when she had me, my mother was 20 years old, right? 145 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,240 And she had four kids by the time she was 30 and she was very 146 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,000 busy and our house was pretty chaotic. 147 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,080 So I would start making my own food and literally these these 148 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,280 crazy things like this pie of like cottage cheese and cottage, 149 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,680 I don't know, it was like, and, and I also started. 150 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:06,600 But that is such a 70s thing, yes. 151 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,840 Right, I know I I remember many girls in. 152 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,640 Junior high school or high school that weren't imitating 153 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,520 their mothers who were eating cottage cheese and tuna fish. 154 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,720 I said that to my husband the other day and he's like, that 155 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,080 sounds disgusting. Yes. 156 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,600 My my mother lived. But The thing is, is my mother 157 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,520 did not worry about her weight. My mother was not somebody who 158 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,760 worried about her weight, who dieted. 159 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,040 She ate whatever she wanted. Now, my mother smoked 160 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,320 cigarettes, right? Because that was the thing at 161 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,560 then. And she had her glass of wine, 162 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,560 you know, not a lot, but, but it was my dad who is the one who is 163 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:46,960 dieting all the time, which is not necessarily what you hear 164 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,120 about like mothers get a bad rap, I think. 165 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,080 But it was my dad who was so focused. 166 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,680 And again, let me just remind you, my dad was an obstetrician 167 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,080 gynecologist. He loved women. 168 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,040 He loved pretty women. And so I think part of it was 169 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,280 also to keep my dad's attention, right? 170 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:14,120 And but I just, I really got so good at, at restricting my food 171 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,160 that I would carry like a bottle of balsamic vinegar with me to a 172 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,160 restaurant. I would, I just like so 173 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,200 restrictive and I lost a lot of weight. 174 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:31,320 And but nobody really, again, I look back and I think nobody 175 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,200 said anything to me like, like, what is going on here? 176 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,640 Or you're really getting thin? And then I also lost my period, 177 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,200 which is something that happens right when you lose a lot of 178 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,160 weight. And, you know, I was at that 179 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,960 point anorexic. And again, my dad just said, oh, 180 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,320 I just think that it's, you know, something going on in your 181 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,080 body. And I had to do all these tests. 182 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,840 And again, it was this secret. And I didn't even really know. 183 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,360 I, I had an eating disorder. I didn't know. 184 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,600 You used an interesting word. It was this secret. 185 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,640 Was it a secret within your family because your father, as a 186 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,560 doctor did not potentially maybe want to deal? 187 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,880 I think it was, but it was also. Or even your mother not. 188 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,000 I think it was denial, denial and it, but it was my secret 189 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:23,800 because I also didn't want anybody messing with what I was 190 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,360 doing. I didn't want anybody telling me 191 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,960 I should eat this or I should eat that. 192 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,960 That's, that's a very, you hear that theme when you speak with 193 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,320 anyone who's dealt with or is dealing with anorexia or bulimia 194 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,040 or any kind of controlling eating pattern. 195 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,800 Yes. But I, I was, I was diving into 196 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,400 like a really dark place also. And what I started doing is 197 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,600 journaling. And I started journaling because 198 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,040 I decided that I want to be, I wanted to be a journalist and I 199 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,080 also was interested in fashion. So I would literally study 17 200 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,440 magazine, Mademoiselle magazine, Glamour magazine. 201 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,640 And I would study them because I thought that I wanted to work 202 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,120 for fashion magazine and write and be a stylist. 203 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,280 And so I thought that if I started writing every single day 204 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,360 and again, I'm, I could be a very disciplined person that it 205 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,600 would help me do that. But it turned out that my 206 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,840 journaling was in a way kind of saved me because it became this 207 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,840 place that I could put down all these feelings of being lonely, 208 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:35,640 sad, depressed, super anxious, beyond anxious, feeling like I 209 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,760 couldn't do things. I was procrastinating. 210 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,360 I hated myself. I read back on my journals and 211 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:47,040 talking about how disgusting I was, how fat I was, how I hated 212 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:53,720 myself so much. And so I again, I but I looked 213 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,160 good. It looked good and. 214 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,480 It's interesting that dichotomy that develops that duality of 215 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,760 it's a, a form of a self loathing in a way, with this 216 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:14,360 incredible desire to control and have this image that we think is 217 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:20,120 going to be more loved than how you know someone is feeling. 218 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,200 You know, it's that external gratification that we're hoping 219 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,280 we get or someone gets. It's it's. 220 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,240 It's complex. It's very complex. 221 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:38,880 And I, my parents at one point had decided that I should go to 222 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,880 because I was interested in theater and dance, right? 223 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,000 This camp, an arts camp, which is called Interlochen Music 224 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,720 Camp, up in northern Michigan. And when I went there, I finally 225 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,560 felt like I found like my people and fit in because where I grew 226 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,520 up, I call it like Friday Night Lights, right? 227 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,120 It was literally about football and sports and academics weren't 228 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,280 that, I mean, they were important, but it wasn't a 229 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,600 focus. But I just again, was trying to 230 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,720 find my place and where I fit in. 231 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,640 But when I went there, I also realized that that was super 232 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,240 competitive. But and, and I would with my 233 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,680 friends, we would talk about food. 234 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,080 We would go on these little binges, you know, the teenagers 235 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,400 do where they eat like junk food and things like that. 236 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,840 But for me, it became a bigger situation than that where again, 237 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,800 I would literally, I have, I have notebooks where I would 238 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,840 write down every single calorie I ate all day long. 239 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,320 And I was in their dance program. 240 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,080 And literally like, like how little could I get by with 241 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,880 eating? But I call it a secret too. 242 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,560 I don't know, maybe secret denial, whatever. 243 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,040 But I in some ways I feel like I almost wanted somebody to know 244 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,000 how bad it was. I. 245 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,440 It was a crime for help. In some ways for help it was. 246 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,480 I think it's a way of saying I'm overwhelmed. 247 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,680 I can't handle this anymore. I'm not getting the attention I 248 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,680 need. You know, I think what I have 249 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,920 observed with people who've had severe eating disorders at some 250 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,640 in some way, they're the person who's trying to balance out a 251 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,240 family dynamic and they're feeling the weight on their 252 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,080 shoulders of, you know, craziness is happening over 253 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,760 here. Craziness is happening with the, 254 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,200 you know, my brother or sister or, or they have a brother or 255 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,000 sister that's disabled in some way or their parents have, you 256 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,600 know, something that's just not functioning. 257 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,520 I mean, there's all kinds of dynamics within a family. 258 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,520 But somehow that child that whether it's a boy or a girl 259 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:46,000 somewhere in those early teen years, says I have to almost 260 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,760 make myself invisible and make myself so perfect and make 261 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,520 myself be the the balance because God, I can't disrupt 262 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,240 anything. But within that is this painful 263 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,520 cry. Like, can't you notice that I'm 264 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,079 falling apart too? Is what I hear people say over 265 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:09,880 and over again when I talk to them about this. 266 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,079 Well, that's a perfect explanation. 267 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:16,480 Or a perfect description of of what it was like because my 268 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,280 parents marriage was falling apart and. 269 00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:24,040 That doesn't surprise me because it's, it's, it's a common and 270 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,480 even if it doesn't completely fall apart, it's often some kind 271 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,640 of catalyst. There's some tension going on 272 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,680 there, right, that a child is picking up. 273 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,120 On yes, yes, and, and things were all kinds of craziness in 274 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,440 my family. But if I could focus on food and 275 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,200 calories and how I looked, I did not have to think about all 276 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,840 those feelings. Because you could be in control 277 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,760 of something when you feel out of control of everything. 278 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,040 Yes, yes. And and somehow I always knew, 279 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,960 like even back then I thought my journals like I thought I'm 280 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,160 going to use this to write a book one day. 281 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,680 I'm going to get better. Like I knew somehow I was going 282 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,960 to get through this. I had no idea how. 283 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,600 And I, I, I set my sights on going out east to college and I 284 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,920 wanted to get out of Ohio and get away from my family. 285 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,280 And I was determined to go to Syracuse, which I, I did go 286 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,120 there. And but again, because and 287 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,040 people will even say this to me now because I always look like I 288 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:31,320 had it so together, nobody knew that I was really having a hard 289 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,040 time and I. You know, one of my favorite 290 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,640 expressions is I have quite a few friends have gone through a 291 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,600 A and I bought, ended up buying all the a a literature and one 292 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,440 of which applies for eating disorders or any kind of, you 293 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,720 know, obsessive behavior. And one of my favorite lines is 294 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,160 don't compare your insides to other people's outsides because 295 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,600 most people I know who have had challenges, whether it's drugs 296 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,560 or alcohol, until it gets, you know, goes into that area of 297 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,600 real severity. You would look at them and say, 298 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,440 wow, they really have it all together. 299 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,840 You know, they, you know, everything's going great in 300 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,280 their life and they become almost the comparison. 301 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,240 So there's a status with maintaining it, which makes the 302 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,480 whole cycle somewhat insidious. Yes, yes, well, and also my 303 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,680 website is called Don't Trust the Mirror, right, Because what 304 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,200 you said before, which is, you know, your insides don't match 305 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,640 your outsides because what you see in the mirror is just a 306 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,280 projection so often of how you are feeling on the inside. 307 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,440 So how do you get them to match up a little bit too, right? 308 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,080 But I when I went to Syracuse again, kind of a fish out of 309 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,960 water here I am from Ohio and this is a sort of a funny story 310 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,360 where I go the first day and it's almost like I thought 311 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:56,240 people would have name tags on and be introducing themselves, 312 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,800 right? I carry, I'm very naive that 313 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,880 way. And I went to the bathroom and I 314 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,160 said to her, she was, I guess a couple years older than me. 315 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,720 And I said, people don't seem to be all that friendly here. 316 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,360 And she said basically like, honey, you're not in Kansas 317 00:20:10,360 --> 00:20:11,960 anymore. This is New York. 318 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,240 Like you better really toughen up here. 319 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:20,520 So and I'll never forget that. And so so I made my way, but but 320 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:26,160 it was really hard and, and it was around and I joined a 321 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,440 sorority. And so, you know, I found like a 322 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:36,040 group of people and but things in my family were getting worse. 323 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,400 And, and I'll just share another funny story that when I went 324 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,600 away, I had my own room in our house growing up and my two 325 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,840 sisters shared a room. And when I left for college, my 326 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,160 younger sister got my room, which I still kind of torture my 327 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,320 mother. And I'll say like, see, like I 328 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,320 lost my room when I went to college. 329 00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:59,840 I lost the family when I went to college. 330 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,840 And, and, and many, many years later, my younger sister said to 331 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,160 me, she's like, I really never even wanted your room. 332 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,640 She's like, I really like sharing your room with Suzanne, 333 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,320 who is my other sister. She's like, but I had to take 334 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,600 it. But I really felt like I was 335 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,240 losing everything. And as I was away at school, my 336 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:23,360 family was deteriorating. So when I went back home after 337 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,800 my first year in college, my family had was not the same 338 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,360 family. And what happened is is I you 339 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,840 can only well. So now you're about 23 and you 340 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,440 said this eating disorder. Went well. 341 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,600 I was still like. 20. Yeah, I was. 342 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,400 Still about 30. Right. 343 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,120 So what happened is I couldn't, I couldn't keep starving myself. 344 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:50,080 And so I was home for a summer and things were bad in my family 345 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,800 and I started binging. Well, I didn't start throwing up 346 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,200 yet, but I just started binging. But then I got terrified because 347 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,920 then I started gaining weight and I will never forget. 348 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:08,080 And I talk about this episode in my podcast, which is that my mom 349 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,360 was sitting at a desk. My other, my younger, one of my 350 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:14,480 younger sisters was there with me and my mom got a call from my 351 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:19,520 dad and he he would like jerk around back and forth, back and 352 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,760 forth. My mother just really just 353 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,400 wanted to be back with my dad and my dad was with somebody 354 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,160 else. So he invited her out for 355 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,360 dinner. And I was like, don't go, don't 356 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:30,320 go, don't go. And she was like, yes, I'll go 357 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,040 out for dinner with you. And I was like, I was so angry. 358 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,320 And then my sister turned to me and she said to me, So what are 359 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,320 you making for dinner? And I was like, I don't know, 360 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,360 can I swear on this podcast? I was like, like, no effing way. 361 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:46,960 Are you kidding me? Like, how is this my 362 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,480 responsibility that I now have to deal with this? 363 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,880 And I don't even know where I got this idea, Diane, but I 364 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,800 ended up going into the pantry eating and I was like, you know 365 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,240 what, I'm just getting rid of all my food. 366 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,920 And I went in the bathroom and I stuck my finger down my throat 367 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,600 for the first time and, and. And that becomes an extra 368 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,720 insidious cycle because you can, as the expression goes, you can 369 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,280 have your cake and eat it too, and then you can get rid of the. 370 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,600 Evidence that was like the perfect solution. 371 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,440 That's what most people describe it as. 372 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,480 Oh, it was the perfect solution. And that's a very difficult 373 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,160 mental state to deal with when you're working with a patient, 374 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,640 you know, and they're saying, but but why doesn't everyone do 375 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:33,720 this right? It's right. 376 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,720 It's that twist of. But it does catch up with you 377 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,080 and also. Lost teeth, digestive disorders, 378 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,360 you know, people who have, you know, Barrett's esophagus or 379 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:48,360 different, you know, throat issues, throat cancer. 380 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,160 I've seen it. Right, right, and. 381 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,760 And I've seen it in men and women. 382 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,240 Well, and, and I'll, you know, Fast forward is that I've had to 383 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,520 have veneers put on all my teeth because my enamel on my teeth 384 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,760 were, was really destroyed for many years of, of, of binging 385 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,000 and purging. But there's also a physiological 386 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:13,040 effect because you get a relief like it's this like discharge, 387 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,000 just relief of anxiety when you throw up. 388 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,040 So it's the emotional piece. It's like the physical, like you 389 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,840 think you get rid of all your food, which you really don't. 390 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,240 And there's the like physiological piece too, which 391 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,120 is addictive as well in some ways to that feeling. 392 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,640 And then you have the further physiological piece, which is 393 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,360 what I worked on with clients when they were referred to me 394 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:44,440 was the further physiological 1 is your body starts to burn 395 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,160 calories differently. So because your metabolism so 396 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,400 screwed up your sugar, how your body's processing sugar has been 397 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,800 completely altered. It's releasing insulin and 398 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,880 adrenaline at the wrong times all around and not related to 399 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,600 food you're taking in that you're trying to digest because 400 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,000 it's like, well, some is here to digest, but rotten, not really 401 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,280 enough for what I just released. And it's a vicious cycle. 402 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,240 It's a vicious cycle. So it just got worse and worse 403 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,600 and it got really out of control. 404 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,760 And, and here I was again, this like picture of me that didn't 405 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,280 match. I was, I became president of my 406 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,880 sorority. I, you know, graduated college. 407 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:29,480 I then went to Dallas, TX because I, I wanted to go to New 408 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,760 York, right? And my dad said to me, how are 409 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,480 you going to get to New York? Like what, what are you, how are 410 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,520 you going to do that? And I was like, I don't know, 411 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,400 aren't you going to help me? He's like, I don't really think 412 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,880 you should go to New York. And my dad was very, I would 413 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,640 always go to him because I always thought he knew better, 414 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,560 right? I lost my sense of, of knowing 415 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,480 me. And so I went to Dallas, TX. 416 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,160 It was a time when the Dallas TV show was really big and it was 417 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,120 like a singles community. It was like, and I knew and I 418 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:05,640 was going there on my own. But again, I was like this a 419 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,240 parentified child, this adult sort of like looking adult, like 420 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,360 really not really feeling like this little girl. 421 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,880 And I went there and everything fell apart. 422 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,200 It really caught up, caught up with me in that way. 423 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:26,520 And, and so I, my eating disorder got worse and worse. 424 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:32,000 I became more and more isolated. I literally would spend like 425 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,160 lost weekends with just like binging and purging, binging and 426 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,480 purging, going through the garbage can like and and also I 427 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,600 started taking laxatives. I was really, really getting 428 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,920 sick and. So where was your turn around? 429 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,640 So what happened is that I, first of all, I went to a group 430 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,240 at, at Southern Methodist University that I had seen and, 431 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,040 and it was horrible because I just learned like better tips on 432 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,160 how to like be a better eating disorder person. 433 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,600 But I knew that I was going to, I, I was really afraid of 434 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,200 somebody finding me dead on the bathroom floor. 435 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:14,440 And so I found a psychiatrist and I do not remember her name. 436 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,960 I do not remember her office. I do not remember anything about 437 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,880 her at all. But I remember what I wore. 438 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,160 I wore this Navy polka dot dress with like puppy sleeves and 439 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,640 pearls, right? And she said to me, you were 440 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,720 sitting there looking perfect with a smile on your face and 441 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,000 telling me that you think you're going to die, you're not safe 442 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,160 here, and I need to call your parents. 443 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,520 And I said, no, no, no, no, no, you cannot call my parents. 444 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,040 And she was like, you can't stay here anymore by yourself. 445 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,880 And I said, if you call my parents, you cannot tell them 446 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,800 that I have been binging and purging. 447 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,880 I said, you can tell them I'm depressed, but you cannot tell 448 00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,760 them that I have an eating disorder. 449 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,960 And she was like, OK, fine. So she called my parents. 450 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,240 My parents were like, what? And my dad at one point said to 451 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,280 me, what are you talking about? Like, I got you this far. 452 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,600 Like you're pretty, you're intelligent. 453 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,120 You're, you know, well put together like what? 454 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,760 What could be the problem here? And so it turns out I went home 455 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,960 and and then I went into a psych ward of a hospital because I 456 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,560 didn't know where to go. I couldn't go home because my 457 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,400 family, there was too much chaos. 458 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,480 I couldn't be in Dallas by myself. 459 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,040 So I went to Cincinnati because I couldn't be in Dayton either 460 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,120 because my dad was very well known. 461 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,520 And so I went to Cincinnati. And I remember in some ways 462 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,800 feeling so relieved that I was going to this hospital because 463 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,360 it felt like a safe place for me. 464 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,760 I remember them taking my shoelaces. 465 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:56,680 I remember them. But. 466 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,280 What an interesting line. You couldn't stay in Ohio. 467 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,360 I couldn't stay in Dayton. I mean, in Dayton, you couldn't 468 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,080 stay in Dayton because your dad was so well known. 469 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,760 Yeah, that's a, that's a pretty, you know, all bullets loaded 470 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,640 statement. Right, right, right. 471 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,440 Because he because it was a small community and and. 472 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,080 A lot of images keep up. Exactly. 473 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,520 Exactly. And the interesting thing is 474 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:34,440 that, and this is such a like a dichotomy, which is that again, 475 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,560 pretending. So I, they took me to the 476 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,920 hospital on Yom Kippur and we went to services as a family 477 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,880 that day. Can you imagine like, going to 478 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,320 services, greeting people, seeing people I knew growing up, 479 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,520 knowing I'm going to the hospital after this? 480 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,480 No, I can't. Imagine and and nobody's like 481 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,480 saying anything either, so. It's almost like the irony, the 482 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,440 hot, the, the high holiday where everyone's fasting, right? 483 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,280 I mean, it's like very. Exactly, exactly that's. 484 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,560 Pretty intense. Yeah, yeah. 485 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,440 And so they took me there and, and dropped me off. 486 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,240 And I remember obviously having a second like, you know, 487 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,800 thinking about it again and feeling like maybe I shouldn't 488 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,320 be here, but I should. And I ended up staying in the 489 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,000 hospital for six weeks. And again, I went to the 490 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,760 hospital. They thought I was depressed. 491 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,720 It was still a secret. My eating disorder was still a 492 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,480 secret. But it couldn't have stayed a 493 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,720 secret that long because either 1 you stopped it, or two, they 494 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,760 would have noticed. Nobody noticed for six weeks 495 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,720 that you were eating and throwing up what you ate. 496 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,720 Well, in the hospital I started starving again. 497 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,360 And nobody noticed that. No, six weeks. 498 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,520 Pretty much. And, and at one point they had a 499 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,160 a stationary bike in a in a exercise room. 500 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,560 And I would spend hours, I would spend hours riding and I would 501 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,280 spend hours on this exercise bike. 502 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,720 And that was allowed. Yes, this is before eating 503 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,200 disorder programs. Before anything like that. 504 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,240 And at one point I said to my I was going home for a pass. 505 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,120 And I said to my psychiatrist, I'm really afraid to go home 506 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,600 because I'm afraid I'm going to throw up. 507 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,800 And he said just keep your fingers out of your mouth. 508 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:31,120 And I was like, what, What did you just say to me? 509 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,640 Keep my fingers out of my mouth like. 510 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,160 Well, it's good advice, but it's a little. 511 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,640 Harsh. Like yes, yes, yes. 512 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,040 Like like it's to the point. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 513 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,280 If it could be that easy, yes, that would be great. 514 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,600 That would be great. So yeah, that would be great. 515 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,160 So where was your turn around? So my turn around was really, I 516 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,840 spent a year in Ohio. I went to a therapist in after I 517 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,960 got out of the hospital in Dayton. 518 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,360 And she's like, I don't know that much about eating 519 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,000 disorders, but I'll help you if I can. 520 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,560 And finally I did have to tell my parents that I had an eating 521 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,240 disorder and I turned out then I ended up going to getting to New 522 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,520 York because that was my goal still to get to New York. 523 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,560 And I went to paralegal school in Philadelphia and I got myself 524 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,360 to New York and I was reading Glamour magazine still, right. 525 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,760 And I saw and I would look in bookstores for books on eating 526 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,240 disorders. I would there was a book, I 527 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,440 think Cherry O'Neill Pat Boone's or daughter or something had a, 528 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,040 had a book out, but very few things on, on eating disorders. 529 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,000 And I was reading Glamour magazine and there was an 530 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,640 article in there on eating disorders and it talked about 531 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,440 the center in New York, the Center for anorexia and bulimia. 532 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,240 And the woman's name in the, in the book was the magazine was 533 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,320 Ellen Short and it talked about you could get help there. 534 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,920 And so I called and a woman called me back and she, I set up 535 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,760 an appointment with her and I almost want to cry because I 536 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,720 started seeing her and she saved my life. 537 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,000 And her name was Ellen Agri Chandler. 538 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,440 And I would go, she lived in, I'd go to her office, she had it 539 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,720 in the, I think around 16th St. and 5th Ave. 540 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,760 And I would see her like two or three times a week. 541 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,200 And, and she taught like somebody asked me recently, 542 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,640 like, how did she help me? How did she help me? 543 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,840 And I think she just tolerated all my messiness, like all this 544 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,360 messiness inside of me, she tolerated it. 545 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,840 And and I think just by talking with her and talking about my 546 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,480 feelings, I started. I mean, I was still really bad. 547 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,280 I tried all kinds of medication. I don't know how she even 548 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,360 tolerated all like how she must have really worried about me a 549 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,960 lot. I was in a couple of abusive 550 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,440 relationships at the time. And so I feel like little by 551 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,640 little, I started kind of figuring out what I wanted to do 552 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,200 with my life. I was really unhappy as a 553 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,520 paralegal. I always wanted to go to social 554 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:15,920 work, school and and so I feel like my symptoms just started 555 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,080 decreasing a little bit. And I'll never forget, she said 556 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,679 to me at one point, she said as my symptoms started getting less 557 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,120 and less and it was hard and it was like 2 steps forward, one 558 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,239 step back. She said to me now the therapy 559 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,000 can begin because we were managing my symptoms really for 560 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,520 so long. Yeah, it's very, it's very 561 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:44,239 difficult to deal with someone that is physically, I mean to 562 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,960 address a mental or psychological issue when someone 563 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,400 is physically unstable, yes. You know, it's like another a, a 564 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,760 thing they say, you know, don't talk to anybody for 24 hours to 565 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,560 48 hours after they've been on a binge, right, right. 566 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,800 Because you are not dealing with someone who's mentally no 567 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,560 balanced in any way. Everything in their body from 568 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,080 sugar, you know, to everything right is off. 569 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,720 So it's very comparable. Yeah, yeah. 570 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,520 So she really just listened to me and she really just helped me 571 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,320 figure out what I wanted to do to help me feel better about 572 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:24,360 myself. And, and at that time, I had met 573 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,200 my husband at the time and he also encouraged me to go to 574 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,320 social work school. And, and I knew that I wanted to 575 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,840 be a therapist. I wanted to help people with 576 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,280 eating disorders, but I also knew if I was going to go to 577 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,400 social work school, I had to, I had to be well enough to go 578 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:45,240 because otherwise it was going to, I was going to fail. 579 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:46,800 I wasn't going to be able to concentrate. 580 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,520 I wasn't going to be able to get through school. 581 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,120 So I knew. So that was something that I 582 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,640 really wanted for myself. So I really worked hard and it 583 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,280 was hard to sort of, you know, deal with the urges I had to 584 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,240 binge to deal with the urges I had to throw up, to restrict. 585 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,160 And, and little by little, my symptoms got less and less. 586 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,320 But the work was real and continues to be hard 587 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,240 emotionally. So at some point you went into 588 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:25,440 private practice, and my guess would be that you recognized 589 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:31,040 your own voice and the importance of sharing your voice 590 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,080 because that's an underlying factor in so much with eating 591 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,040 disorders. What do you have to say to that? 592 00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:43,640 Yes and yes. Is that I think with an eating 593 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,400 disorder or, or my eating disorder or many people I see 594 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,200 with eating disorders, it takes away your voice. 595 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,320 You're afraid to speak up. So that's you use your symptoms 596 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,320 as a way of expressing yourself rather than using your voice. 597 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,920 And so I did go into private practice and I really felt 598 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,040 passionate about helping others with an eating disorder, with 599 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,120 their eating disorder or disordered eating. 600 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,800 And I always say that I had my own journey and my eating 601 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,120 disorder, but everybody's journey is different. 602 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,520 But I would hope that even through my podcast, through 603 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,600 speaking here, that people can identify with certain things 604 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,400 that I'm saying and it can offer them hope. 605 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,240 And I, in developing my podcast, I really felt like I wanted to 606 00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,760 get out of my office because I can only see so many people in a 607 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,000 week, right? And I really wanted to reach a 608 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,760 wider audience because I feel passionately about helping 609 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,760 people, about giving people hope, about helping them find 610 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,960 their voice, feeling better about themselves. 611 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:56,120 So I decided and I, and like just to go back a bit to my 612 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,920 journals, right? As I had all these journals and 613 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,400 I was like, what am I going to do with all these journals? 614 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:07,000 And so I I incorporated them into my podcast, which is I 615 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,120 started with telling a bit of my story and then reading some 616 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:15,280 journal entries and then talking about as a therapist, what I 617 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,240 would have wanted my younger self to know. 618 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,320 Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, and really being able to 619 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:26,160 kind of go back to that young girl and what she was struggling 620 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:31,160 with and how hard it was and being able to talk to her and 621 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,280 what. Would you want a younger person 622 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,240 to know a younger you? Any person, male, female, that's 623 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:43,120 dealing with any kind of struggles they're having with 624 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,840 food, whether it's they're restricting it, counting every 625 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,920 calorie, throwing up what they eat over exercising, what would 626 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,440 you, what would you say to them? What would you give them as a 627 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,000 ray of hope or a direction that they could go towards? 628 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:07,760 I would say that there is help, that there is hope and there's 629 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,320 help. And because when you you 630 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,520 struggle like that, you are in your own personal hell and 631 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,320 prison with it. And that there is a way out. 632 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,520 And by by finding your voice, by finding support, by developing a 633 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,880 village of people who love and care about you and who are 634 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,920 positive that you can find another way. 635 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,200 And that's really what what I have done is, is, is been able 636 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,440 to. I always knew that I was going 637 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,360 to get better. I just didn't know how and I 638 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,680 didn't know the trajectory of my life and exactly how that would 639 00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:48,400 turn out. And and, and I also, you know, 640 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,880 people ask me about recovery and I think that's a very, you know, 641 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,040 it's not like drugs or alcohol where you just you don't use 642 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,800 them anymore. You have to eat. 643 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,680 And so you really have to develop a whole different 644 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,400 relationship with food and with yourself and your body and be 645 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,280 able to accept yourself and also, you know, when working 646 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,920 with people who want to be at a certain weight, right. 647 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,200 And I'll say to them. Do you want to live your life 648 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,920 like you can be at that certain weight, but your life is going 649 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,040 to be really, really limited and do you want to enjoy food? 650 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,760 Do you want to enjoy going out and being social? 651 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,360 Then how do you accept your body at a place where it really wants 652 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:36,520 to be and learn to love yourself and, and not just focus on the 653 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,000 outside, but really focus on the inside and really being able to 654 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,080 take care of yourself? The other thing that that the 655 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,760 reason I was so afraid to tell people is because I was afraid 656 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,560 that people would take away my eating disorder. 657 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,600 I would. I was afraid like that 658 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,320 psychiatrist. Yeah, it's an identity. 659 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,240 And I was afraid. Well, you're going to tell me to 660 00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,600 stop, but I can't. I can't. 661 00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:06,960 And until you develop other coping skills and other ways to 662 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,120 deal, like speaking up, talking about your feelings, whether 663 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,280 it's through journaling, meditation, movement, whatever 664 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,640 it is, and being able to express yourself and deal with really 665 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,600 dark places, you can't just give up your eating disorder. 666 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:29,240 Well, I often say to people when I'm advising them on, on all 667 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,680 kinds of things, is who would you be if you gave up the story? 668 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,720 Because we're all storytellers and we get caught up in a story 669 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:39,520 and that story becomes our identity, whatever it is. 670 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,240 You know, I'm a cheerleader, I'm a football player, I'm an 671 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:45,480 athlete, or I'm, you know, I'm an anorexic or I'm a bulimic. 672 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,920 Whatever the story is, we build a life around that in one way or 673 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,120 another and identify with it. So I think it's always an 674 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,520 important question and it's an abrupt question, but who would 675 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,920 people be if they gave up that story? 676 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,000 That's a good question. Yeah. 677 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,400 And who would people be? I feel like at this point in my 678 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:13,680 life, doing this has given me really a, a platform to speak 679 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,520 out about. It's an intersection of my 680 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,040 personal and professional life and something I feel like I said 681 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:25,120 very passionately about in terms of really being able to get a 682 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,920 message of hope to people. And also, I feel like I've 683 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,760 gotten back to who I was, that little girl, because that little 684 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,440 girl that was creative that, you know, had such an imagination. 685 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,000 I'm really channeling it in a different way to continue to 686 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,400 heal myself and to be able to help others with that through 687 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,360 writing through my podcast. I'm working on a book right now 688 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,680 and I felt like I, I wanted to put my story into a book and be 689 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,280 able to share it with people that way too, and also use my 690 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:06,160 journalism background and come full circle with that and, and 691 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,680 really bring it all together. I I'm just curious how is it for 692 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:16,720 you to relive this story? That's a good question. 693 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,200 I don't know if it kind of makes me teary. 694 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,480 I I feel really sad for that little girl. 695 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:30,200 Yeah. I really sad it's I feel like 696 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,880 I've been through a lot and I also feel like it's been 697 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,240 important to to look at the people who are in my life and 698 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:41,800 feel like I need to be with people who actually see me, not 699 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,480 just what I look like, right, because I can get a lot of. 700 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,640 Attention inside because she's got a lot of heart. 701 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,760 Yes, yes, but who I am from the heart as well. 702 00:43:52,760 --> 00:44:02,480 And, and it's, it feels like it's, you know, my eating 703 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,360 disorder is still a part of me in some ways. 704 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,800 And we were talking a little bit off off Mike off camera, just in 705 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,000 terms of my life has changed where I've I've left a marriage 706 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,720 after a long time and I like relearning what it's like to be 707 00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,120 with myself again. My, my own little room that I 708 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,240 had is now an apartment. So now I have my own room in an 709 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:28,200 apartment, but I'm having to learn how to feed myself again, 710 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,360 how to cook, how to do things that when I was married, it was 711 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,960 all taken care of for me. So it's, it's like I continue 712 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,240 to, to have my conversations with that little girl and be 713 00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:46,120 able to give her the empathy and the compassion for what she went 714 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,680 through. And also be able to see the 715 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:53,360 courage and the determination I've had and be able to offer 716 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,520 that to other people that you, you know, people are brave and 717 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:03,160 courageous to really seek help to, to really work hard on 718 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,640 themselves. It really is quite the journey, 719 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,040 quite the journey it is, and it's quite the journey to guide 720 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,160 other people through because we each have to find our own 721 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,720 answers, wherever those answers are and wherever they'll lead 722 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:23,680 us. And hopefully people seek them 723 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,720 before they have something very seriously adverse happened to 724 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:29,800 them. Right before it's too late. 725 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,440 Yeah. What would you encourage 726 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,560 somebody to do today who's listening to this? 727 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:42,640 I would say to find somebody to talk to, to find a support 728 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:48,920 system, even if it's one person that, that you can speak to, to 729 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,040 talk to, to share your truth. Not to feel like you have to be 730 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,840 somebody or somebody's expecting you, but to really look and 731 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,240 listen to your heart in terms of what you really need. 732 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:08,240 And, and to sit quietly also. And I will also, I will also 733 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:12,320 share this, which is, and I, I continuously tell myself this is 734 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,120 that our thoughts and feelings always change. 735 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,560 As bad as it feels at that moment, it will shift and it 736 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,360 will change. That's a really good point. 737 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,320 I'm constantly reminding people don't act in the moment because 738 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,040 your thoughts are like the tides. 739 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,000 They go in, they come out, they go in, they come out. 740 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,360 Yes. Yes, well, this was a 741 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,520 fascinating conversation and I hate to see it and everyone I 742 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,640 have been speaking with Maureen Kritzer Lang, She has a great 743 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,040 podcast. All the information's going to 744 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:47,000 be below. Highly recommend you pay 745 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,680 attention to what she's saying. She she has a lot of heart. 746 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,240 This episode will be found on every major channel. 747 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:58,680 Again, it was recorded in the great Manhattan Center, but all 748 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,640 of Maureen's info is in the in the links below this. 749 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,040 So please feel free to share this, tell your friends, 750 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,440 subscribe. And again, Maureen, thank you 751 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,480 very much. Thank you, Diane. 752 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,080 It was a pleasure. Thank you so much. 753 00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,760 Truly mine. Thanks everybody. 754 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,360 Hit subscribe and share.