1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,800 Hello everyone. I'm Diane Grissell, also known 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,120 as Silver Disobedience, and this is the Silver Disobedience 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,560 Perception Dynamics podcast where we explore all kinds of 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,760 operating systems within society. 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,920 And today I have a very interesting guest. 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,560 She got her master's in counseling and then went on to 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:27,280 get licensed as a counselor, but she's giving up that license. 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,160 Her name is Anna Holtzman, and we're going to talk to her about 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:41,080 shifts in psychology, therapy judgments, self worth issues, 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,640 how these things shift, what's changing within psychology and 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,840 how the landscape's changing. So please say hi to Anna 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,320 Holtzman. Hi, Diane, thank you so much for 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,120 having me here. I am very happy to have you. 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,080 As we talked a little bit before this show started, the entire 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,200 landscape of psychology, which is basically a relatively new 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:11,080 science, is changing on all different cylinders for a lot of 17 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,120 different reasons. Tell me what some of your 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,960 thoughts are on the current state of psychology. 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,880 Yeah, well, part of me, the current state of psychology 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,040 could be a pretty broad topic. But I know that one of the 21 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,560 things we were chatting about just earlier is that for a long 22 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:36,760 time, therapists were trained to be kind of a blank slate, you 23 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,120 know, not to really share anything about themselves 24 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,480 personally, maybe even not to share their own emotions. 25 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,840 And that is something that's changing quite a bit. 26 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,240 And I'm a big fan of that change. 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,680 And it's it's one of the reasons I really like, I work as both a 28 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,000 therapist and a coach, but I'm no longer taking on new therapy 29 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,800 clients. I'm phasing that out. 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,760 And I really enjoy working in under the umbrella of coaching 31 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,560 where it's kind of anything goes. 32 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:14,400 You know, you can trust your own instincts and use your own life 33 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:19,360 experience as part of the work. And I think that that's a really 34 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,680 powerful way that we relate as human beings. 35 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,320 You know, like, have you ever had a conversation with any 36 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,600 human being other than a therapist where you felt heard 37 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,680 and connected and, you know, like just engaged in human 38 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,680 connection where they were just sitting there like a blank slate 39 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,000 and not sharing any of their own humanity with you? 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,440 Well, it's an interesting shift in psychology and I'm not 100% 41 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,600 on board with it. Yeah, I love, I love that we 42 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,480 have different tastes on. This yeah. 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,600 And when I first read a, you know, when I first read about it 44 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,680 in Psychology Today and I had seen that all these, this new 45 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,880 younger breed of therapists are all saying, no, we have sharing 46 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,560 sessions. I share how I feel about this 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,480 and the client shares how they feel. 48 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:14,000 And my thought was why you're bringing your opinions into it. 49 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,400 And the idea about a good therapy session is one that 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,880 someone's not judging you. They're not giving their 51 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,800 opinions. They're letting you explore what 52 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,680 you think by asking provocative, thought provoking questions. 53 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:31,560 So I think there's a I'm curious as to where you think the 54 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,240 benefits are of sharing your insights. 55 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,600 I mean, that's interesting. I, I don't often share my own 56 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:44,360 opinions on things in a session, but things I will share are, you 57 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,000 know, if I've had a life experience that relates to what 58 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,800 someone I'm working with is experiencing, I'll share. 59 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,360 You know, I'll say something like I'm just in AI, you know, 60 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,640 I'm a coach, but I'm also just another human being. 61 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:05,360 And, you know, the feelings that you're having totally make sense 62 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,640 to me because I've had those feelings as well. 63 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,480 And it it just helps to to normalize what the person is 64 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,880 feeling, you know? But in a therapy session, 65 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,279 suppose your feelings were repulsed by what someone shared. 66 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,320 So if you enter an area. If you enter an area. 67 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,120 Which is why I don't think it ever belongs. 68 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,360 I mean, when you are in a situation where a therapist is 69 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,880 sharing their in some, in some ways it's easier you're getting 70 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,240 their approval or your their reprimand or dislike if someone 71 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,960 is if that's the environment you're in. 72 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,360 I mean, that's an interesting I, I'm like, that's just so 73 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,520 different from how I, how I work or really how I think about it 74 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,480 when it's kind of like a, an all or nothing. 75 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,440 Like I'm, I'm not going to share every feeling that I have with a 76 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,800 client. I'm going to share things that I 77 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,800 think can be helpful and supportive to them, that can 78 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,920 help them feel less alone with their experience. 79 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:15,320 That can, you know, help them feel less isolated in their 80 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,760 experience. That can help them feel like 81 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:22,360 they're a part of humanity and not some alien who's broken and 82 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,960 weird and disconnected from everyone. 83 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,240 So I'm not going to share things just to throw spaghetti at the 84 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,240 wall, right? I'm going to share things that I 85 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,200 feel would support them. And if where? 86 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Does, where do you draw that line? 87 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,440 Well, how does, how does a therapist draw that line though? 88 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,520 You know, which is what I wonder when I see this as a new trend, 89 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,360 and I'm not saying I think it's totally right or wrong. 90 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,200 I want to have a discussion on it because it is such a huge 91 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,560 shift. And you know, I mean, some 92 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,320 people will say, well, I, I didn't want to do therapy 93 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,800 because I feel like the person's just listening to me. 94 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,760 But a good therapist is listening and asking thought 95 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,440 provoking questions to make the person understand themselves. 96 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:15,280 The focus is I'm paying you and the focus is 100% on me and 97 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,680 helping me understand myself. When it starts to become that 98 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,120 sharing dynamic, I don't see how judgment can't enter the 99 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,520 equation one way or another. Well, judgement can enter the 100 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,160 equation even if you're not sharing anything verbally about 101 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,680 yourself. I mean, judgement can come out 102 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:39,480 in a vibe, in a look. And it usually does come out if, 103 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,160 if the therapist is judging you, I mean, you're going to know 104 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,560 even if they don't say something that tells you that. 105 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,240 But you were asking about where do you draw the line? 106 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,720 And I think, I think this goes to something that you talk about 107 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:02,160 a lot, which is like rules and you know, codification. 108 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,720 And I think it's really whether it's therapy or coaching, it's a 109 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,360 relationship. So I really draw on the 110 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,080 relationship skills that I use in any other relationship. 111 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:19,880 I'm, I'm noticing what I'm feeling and I'm using my 112 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:26,040 intuition and I OfferUp something and I check in with 113 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,160 the client like here's what's coming up, here's a reflection 114 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,880 that's coming up for me. How does this land for you? 115 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,640 And if it lands in a way that's not helpful, like that's 116 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,560 information that helps us figure out where to go next. 117 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,000 How do you differentiate between when you think I'm wearing my 118 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,320 therapist hat versus my coaching hat? 119 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,040 Yeah, it's, that's a really interesting question, people. 120 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,680 I've have asked me that a lot and I've sort of 2 answers to 121 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,960 that. One answer is that I'm when I'm 122 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,320 working with someone, I'm working with someone and it's 123 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,880 about presence and it's about relationship. 124 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,920 And it's not about whether the title I'm being given in that 125 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,880 moment is therapist or coach. So I really attuned to the 126 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,880 person that I'm working with. And so in that sense, I'm kind 127 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,280 of working in the same way, whether it's called therapy or 128 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,800 coaching. And there's just like this legal 129 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,000 delineation between the two. You know, if it's therapy, they 130 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,600 can get reimbursed by their their insurance provider. 131 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,960 And if it's therapy, I can only work with folks who reside in 132 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,760 the state of New York because that's where my license is. 133 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:50,400 But in another sense, there's something in the back of my mind 134 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,240 that just knows, you know, that what's happening right now is 135 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,880 being called therapy or that knows what's happening right now 136 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:03,960 is being called coaching. And that very subtly impacts me 137 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,960 and how I show up in those sessions because when, when I 138 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:14,040 know like this is therapy, all this stuff that I heard in grad 139 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,960 school kind of comes in and it's not in the foreground, but it's 140 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,680 somewhere there in the background. 141 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,200 And there's all this stuff about, you know, there's kind of 142 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,720 like a right way and a wrong way to do things. 143 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,840 And well, if you do this, you could use your lose your 144 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,120 license. And it, it's not that there 145 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:36,320 isn't a purpose to all of these guidelines and education, but 146 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,720 there's also, and I've spoken to many therapists who have had a 147 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,240 similar experience. I experienced the, the 148 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,960 atmosphere in Graduate School as having quite a bit of like fear 149 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,280 mongering. Like, you know, if you step 150 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,880 outside the side, the line, you could, you're doing things 151 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:54,960 wrong. You could really harm the 152 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,040 client. If you share anything about 153 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,720 yourself, it could harm the client relationship or and so 154 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,600 there's just this kind of like subtle. 155 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:07,360 Squeers. So we're back to that idea of 156 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,240 sharing about yourself crossing the line. 157 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,080 Yes, so, and that's just one of the ways in which you know. 158 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,200 But but that is a big area in therapy because it is, you know, 159 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,800 the sharing about yourself crossing the line. 160 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:25,800 And I really wonder how much, you know, social media, which 161 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:31,360 has disintermediated so many industries and changed how 162 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,080 people think in so many, many areas. 163 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,160 And all of a sudden, you know what, when I used to, you know, 164 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,720 when I'd work with public relations clients and they'd 165 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,520 say, wait a second, we need to that newspaper to retract that 166 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,240 statement. And I'd say, OK, well, we can 167 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,880 ask them to retract it. But they're, I think it was 168 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,680 maybe Thomas Jefferson who said, you know, never go to battle 169 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,320 with people who buy ink by the barrel, you know, because a 170 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,200 newspaper has unlimited pages to attack you if that's what they 171 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,360 want to do because they're extra aggravated. 172 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,880 You just annoyed them. And the Internet, we've seen 173 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,600 that crowd mentality where everyone has a voice. 174 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:12,840 Anyone can say anything they want with no restriction 175 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,080 whatsoever. And I really wonder how that 176 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,680 impacted psychology. You know, are we raising a group 177 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:22,760 of new psychologists that have grown up with, well, I can say 178 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,760 whatever I want and therefore in my sessions, because I do think 179 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:31,560 it creates a false, a very false sense of importance, which is a 180 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:34,720 whole other discussion. That's that's so interesting 181 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,880 because I also I have like a completely different take on 182 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:38,720 this. Let's hear it. 183 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,640 And I'm very active on social media and I love it. 184 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,000 I think it's a great thing. I think that, you know, I mean 185 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,640 social media, just like the printed word, it can be used for 186 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,040 for good, bad and everything in between. 187 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,760 It's how you use it and how you interact with it. 188 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:02,080 But I feel that social media has really democratized therapy. 189 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,680 It has taken away the sense of, you know, there are the 190 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:10,000 authorities who are going to tell you if you were well or 191 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,920 unwell or who are going to tell you what's right and wrong. 192 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:19,480 And it's really opened things up for everyone to interact and 193 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,920 have their, you know, just survey a wide range of different 194 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,160 ideas and express their own ideas. 195 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:33,560 And to me it's a tool for developing self trust, which how 196 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:37,000 I believe is how. How does it help teach self 197 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,160 trust? I'm curious. 198 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,320 To me, it teaches self trust because it it takes us out of 199 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,560 this context that we formerly were in where there were like, 200 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:54,320 you know, several famous books by famous psychologists or, or 201 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,520 therapists. And those were the people that 202 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,080 we perceived as having all the authority. 203 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,560 And they know better than I do because they're the only ones 204 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:08,240 who have a voice and they're the only ones whose voices I can 205 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,320 find. And I don't have a platform to 206 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,880 have a voice. So that means my voice doesn't 207 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,120 matter and I should just listen to them. 208 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,920 Whereas in this world of social media, sure, it can be used in 209 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,480 all kinds of different ways, but one of the ways in which it's 210 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:35,400 used is it it shows you that everyone has a voice and can use 211 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,120 it if they want to. And you have a voice too and can 212 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,320 use it if you want to. There are 1,000,000 zillion 213 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,840 different ideas out there about different things. 214 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:49,680 Like there is no one word of authority on what therapy 215 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:54,040 modality is the best. Or, you know, there's just lots 216 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,280 of different ideas out there and they're there for you to 217 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,560 synthesize and come up with your with your own feelings and views 218 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,720 about things. That's, that's a very intriguing 219 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,720 perspective because I do believe in the disintermediation that's 220 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:13,120 occurred from the Internet and particularly social media. 221 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,680 We also have a point where there's so much self diagnosis 222 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:26,320 going on and the running joke of a Google doctor. 223 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:33,120 But and then where are those boundaries that you draw on 224 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,640 social media or are there none? Do you feel it's a free for all? 225 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,320 You know, because you're you're sometimes wearing the therapist 226 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:47,400 hat and sometimes you're not. Well, when I, when I use social 227 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,400 media, I use it as a coach and I don't even, I mean, I, I may 228 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,640 mention, you know, as part of a story that I, I am licensed as a 229 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,600 therapist and that's part of my background, but I'm not, I don't 230 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,440 use the letters after my name on my Instagram profile, for 231 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,480 example. How do you define the difference 232 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,600 between a therapist and a coach from your perspective? 233 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,560 Yeah. You know, the way that I would 234 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,600 define the difference is probably very different from how 235 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:25,320 most other therapists or coaches would define it, because I 236 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:31,320 define it as, to me, this is controversial to most people. 237 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:38,640 To me, it's largely a difference in legal specifications and 238 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,240 marketing. It's a difference in marketing 239 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,600 because marketing yourself as a therapist with the letters after 240 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,320 the name projects a certain kind of image and there's a certain 241 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:57,560 kind of client who's looking for a particular style of support 242 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,520 that is attracted to that type of marketing. 243 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:09,200 Whereas if I market myself as a coach, I'll just say very 244 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:14,560 broadly, and there are tons of exceptions to this, but a client 245 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:21,160 who's looking for a therapist is generally looking to bring a 246 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:28,600 problem to this therapist and get this therapist expertise in 247 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,000 solving that problem. And they are looking to the 248 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,880 therapist as an authority who knows more than them. 249 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:45,200 Someone who is looking for a coach, I would say is more often 250 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,760 someone who has a particular goal in mind, less about 251 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,400 something they want to solve and get rid of like a problem, but 252 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,920 more more often a goal that they want to reach or achieve. 253 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,080 And they are looking for someone who's maybe like walked the path 254 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:08,119 already who might know more by virtue of being further along on 255 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,400 the path that they want to walk on than they presently are. 256 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:16,040 So kind of like a a mentor and they're looking to do the work 257 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,839 and have someone's guidance and support. 258 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,359 And I'm curious, you prefaced that by saying this is 259 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,119 controversial. What part of that statement was 260 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,280 controversial? Because it sounded like a good. 261 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,960 Differentiator. I think the controversial part 262 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,040 is that I see the difference more as being about the 263 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,120 marketing aspect. Whereas what I generally hear 264 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,800 from therapists and coaches, but particularly from therapists, is 265 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:47,800 that, you know, a therapist is first of all, delving into the 266 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:54,800 past and also, you know, has particular training so that they 267 00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:00,400 are qualified to work on certain diagnosable disorders. 268 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:06,400 And whereas a coach is future focused, but also they're, you 269 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,440 know, they're not qualified to deal with certain diagnosable 270 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,040 issues. And those should be left for a 271 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:14,480 therapist. I think there is, you know, 272 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,400 there are, there are situations it's, it's very important to 273 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,360 know the limits of your scope. Honestly, even if you're, if you 274 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,240 are a licensed therapist, like I'm not an expert in eating 275 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,520 disorders, for example. So that's really out of my 276 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,600 scope. It would be irresponsible for me 277 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,280 to take on a client to say, you know, I'm going to help you heal 278 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,960 from this eating disorder. I don't have that training or 279 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:50,680 that expertise, but I know coaches who have great expertise 280 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,440 in eating disorders and and tons of experience in that field who 281 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,360 help people in that realm. I think what's, what's 282 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:04,800 controversial is in my opinion, it's about the relationship you 283 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,600 have with the client and your personal area of expertise more 284 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,240 so than to me, it's, it's really not that important if you have 285 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,320 the letters after your name or not. 286 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,040 Do you have but legally you know? 287 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,240 Do you have coaching clients who ask if they can run you through 288 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,680 run their invoices through their therapy bills? 289 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,080 I've had that question, but I'm very, very clear with that with 290 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,160 folks like right at the beginning of working together, 291 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,720 I, I say, you know, what we're doing is coaching. 292 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,680 And one of the things that means is that this is not billable 293 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,760 through insurance. When you think of the shifts 294 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,680 going on, why do you think they're happening? 295 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,280 Why do you think there are more coaches coming up? 296 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,840 Is it that they don't want to go through school like you did, 297 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,720 they don't want to deal with the licensing? 298 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,120 Or is it just plain a different mentality? 299 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,640 I think it's a different mentality. 300 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,080 And what do you think that is? I think it's a different 301 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,720 mentality and what what I see is there are a lot of people in the 302 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,120 field who similar to me. Our do have a therapy license 303 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:14,560 and they're either they're leaving their license to go into 304 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,280 coaching or they're adding coaching and they're doing both. 305 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,920 And in the broadest terms, the the main reason is it just gives 306 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,720 you a lot more freedom in a lot of different ways. 307 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,920 It gives you more freedom. I feel it gives you more freedom 308 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,440 to be yourself more authentically. 309 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,040 And to me, that's a really useful tool in helping people 310 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,560 grow when I'm being myself authentically. 311 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,720 Like what do every one of my clients want? 312 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,720 They want to be themselves authentically at the end of the 313 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,680 day, you know, whether they're coming to me because they they 314 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,360 want to heal from chronic pain, which was a specialty of mine 315 00:20:55,360 --> 00:21:00,160 for about five years. Or whether they're coming to me 316 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,440 because they want to grow their own business or they want to 317 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,760 write a book, or they want to put their art out into the 318 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,320 world, which are some of the things that people are coming to 319 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,840 me for. And now at the, you know, the 320 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,400 underpinning of it all is they want to feel like they are being 321 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,800 their authentic selves, that they're authentically expressing 322 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,080 themselves and sharing that with the world. 323 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,600 And so if I'm not doing that as I'm working with them, it 324 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,360 doesn't really, it's not conducive to them growing into 325 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:37,560 that either. Well, that to me is where I 326 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,920 would draw the line between therapy and coaching. 327 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,240 If you're, if you're going to share your experiences to me and 328 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:51,720 to guide someone, I would think that leans a little more into 329 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,360 the coaching. I mean, because even leading a 330 00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:59,640 group, you know, you know, even if it was a group discussion, 331 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,160 it's still you have the moderator who's leading it. 332 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,600 That is not necessarily sharing their, his or her opinion. 333 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:16,760 Yeah, yeah, I coaching is certainly a lot more conducive 334 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,640 to the coach sharing themselves authentically. 335 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,920 And I think that's one of the big reasons that a lot of 336 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,760 people, whether they're coming from being a therapist and 337 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,480 having a license or not, are being drawn to coaching now. 338 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,400 And some of the other reasons are, as I was mentioning before, 339 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,840 when you're a therapist, you can only work with clients who are 340 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:46,000 residing in the state in which you are licensed. 341 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,840 And it's kind of a pain in the butt to get licensed in multiple 342 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,960 states, although people do it, but it's just more paperwork. 343 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,120 Do you think this shift happened when people started to work from 344 00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,120 home? Yes, yes, that's exactly what I 345 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:01,200 was going to say. Yeah. 346 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,720 So when the COVID lockdown started, we all went remote. 347 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,280 My work went remote. I was not happy about the 348 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,600 reasons it was happening, but I was happy to go remote because 349 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,120 it just gives you a lot more freedom and flexibility in lots 350 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:21,720 of ways. And then you start thinking, 351 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,720 well, why am I only working with people who live in my state? 352 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,200 There's so many people around the world who need and want my 353 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,640 help, and it just feels so limiting to be limited to those 354 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,600 who live locally. When you know, we're we're 355 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,480 working with each other on Zoom, so you could be anywhere. 356 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,600 What? How do you define your work set 357 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,640 today? Let's say in the coaching area, 358 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,120 What would be your area of expertise? 359 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,080 So my area of expertise is the nervous system. 360 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,480 I work through a nervous system lens and the people that I work 361 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:02,160 with are creatives, coaches and entrepreneurs, people who are 362 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,000 very passionate about what they do. 363 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:07,920 There are people who are a lot like me. 364 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,800 They're they're, they have big passions about what they do. 365 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,640 This very strong need to express themselves authentically to be 366 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,960 seen and heard. And also they're sensitive 367 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,280 people. So along with that big passion 368 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:27,120 is like very intense fears of saying what they really want to 369 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,320 say, of putting themselves out there in a more authentic way, 370 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,920 of truly letting themselves be seen. 371 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,920 And so I am helping those people learn how to work with their 372 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,800 nervous system so they can kind of dance with this passion and 373 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,360 fear. They can help them work together 374 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,600 and not have the the fear just be blocking the passion and be 375 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,400 in conflict that way. You know, it's interesting. 376 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,440 One of the words you use a lot is authentic and authenticity. 377 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,120 And they say in psychology courses, when someone repeats 378 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,280 the same word over and over again, that's the word you 379 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,840 should probably pay attention to because you're getting hidden 380 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,400 clues about the person you're speaking with. 381 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,720 Yeah. So considering you use the word 382 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,440 authentic a few times in this interview, what does that mean? 383 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,960 Because it's, in many ways, it's a very, in my opinion, it's an 384 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,640 extremely overused word that has lost a lot of its meaning 385 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,520 because it's so overused. I mean, people want to be just 386 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,880 plain jerks and say, well, I'm being authentic. 387 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,680 And it's no, you're being a jerk. 388 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,920 You know, your, your rights have gone beyond. 389 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,640 So how do you define authenticity? 390 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,440 Here's how I'll define what it means to me and I'll I'll 391 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,920 describe this using the lens of the nervous system, which is the 392 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:58,560 lens that I find really useful. So the nervous system, our 393 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,800 nervous systems are, are pretty simple like they're, they're 394 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:07,520 pretty, they're very similar to like the nervous system you. 395 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,120 Touch something, it's hot. You know it in a second and. 396 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,200 So you could say there's kind of like a switch in our nervous 397 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,480 system and it has two basic settings. 398 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,400 One setting is fear, threat response, and the other setting 399 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,560 I'll call flow. When we feel connected with 400 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,120 ourselves and we're able to connect with other people, we're 401 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:34,080 able to think expansively and consider that there are many 402 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,720 different options. We can feel like we're in the 403 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,080 creative flow. We feel in tune with our bodies. 404 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,200 We feel present. That's what I mean by 405 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,840 authenticity. When you feel connected to 406 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:54,080 yourself and to others and to your to your flow of energy. 407 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,360 Where do you think the boundaries are on authenticity 408 00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,360 these days? What do you mean by that? 409 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,240 Well, you know, someone could say I feel very connected with 410 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,920 myself and therefore I feel I can say whatever I want. 411 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:14,400 I personally, my opinion is that that I can say whatever I want 412 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,560 like without any consideration for how that might affect other 413 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,600 people. I feel that comes from a fear 414 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,840 place to me like that fear setting. 415 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:35,520 When we're in that fear mode, we tend to either suppress what we 416 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,120 think and feel or we express it explosively. 417 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,800 Like we, we push it through, but when we're in that flow setting, 418 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,520 we express things relationally. So we express to connect with 419 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,480 other people. And when if I'm just going to 420 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,760 say whatever the hell I want without caring how that's going 421 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:04,000 to impact other people, that's not communicating relationally 422 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:06,920 and that's not connecting, that's projecting. 423 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:14,440 Right, so there is that. There is that line you see in 424 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,200 projecting verse. How would you define rejecting 425 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,400 since you just said it? And I wouldn't even see it as a 426 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:21,080 line. I would. 427 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,040 I would. I see it as like, there's left 428 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,240 and there's right. And those are kind of like the 429 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,640 two fear directions. And then there's up, which would 430 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,200 be the flow direction. So like fear. 431 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,160 Yeah. It leads to either suppressing 432 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,800 ourselves or just black. You know, just like shouting at 433 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,840 someone instead of communicating with someone. 434 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,440 What do you think of the expression Think Before You 435 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,480 Speak where the acronym is? Is it thoughtful, hurtful, 436 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,800 intelligent, necessary, or kind? I mean, I, I think it's a good 437 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,360 policy and I would maybe, I would maybe tweak it for myself 438 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,920 to feel before you speak like feel and you know, I'll feel 439 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:13,360 into my body like because I can tell by sensing into my body if 440 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,960 I'm in fear or if I'm in flow. And I don't want to speak from 441 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,080 fear. If I'm in fear, I want to come 442 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,520 have a conversation with myself 1st and melt through that fear 443 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,200 and get into flow before I express this to anyone else. 444 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,640 What do you think comes first, the feeling or the thought? 445 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,960 It really depends. It depends, and it depends how 446 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,160 tuned in or not tuned in we are to our feelings which are, which 447 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:46,040 are in our bodies, like fear. If I want to know what I'm 448 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,920 feeling, I'll ask myself, like, is my body feeling like it's 449 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,680 contracting or does it feel open? 450 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,200 And if it's contracting, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. 451 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,960 It's perfectly natural and normal and it's a sign that 452 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,080 there there's some fear going through me, which is a common 453 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,760 thing. I mean, we feel fear about a 454 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,040 bazillion times a day. I do agree with you. 455 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,360 I think there's a difference and there's a time 11 precedes the 456 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,720 other. I would hate to rule out 457 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,080 instincts. You know, one of my favorite 458 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,200 books was The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker when he talks 459 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,400 about, you know, if you were in a dark building and you're about 460 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:31,160 to get in an elevator and you see someone in the elevator, if 461 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:36,120 you have that split second instinct of fear, don't get in. 462 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,680 Just say, you know, turn around, you forgot your keys. 463 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,880 You don't have to explain it, but he talks about how most 464 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,320 people overrule that instinct and they get in the elevator 465 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,880 anyway. And so those are times I think 466 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,600 you absolutely have a feeling 1st. 467 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,560 And then there's times people ruminate. 468 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,480 They get in the middle of a thought and that thought becomes 469 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,280 obsessive to some degree or another, and now they're having 470 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,720 little feelings of what they can do, what they can't do. 471 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,440 You know how things are going to unfold. 472 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,080 Yeah, absolutely. I kind of feel like it's a 473 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:15,480 chicken and egg thing, you know, like I think of the body 474 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,320 reaction to fear and the mind reaction to fear as just 475 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,560 different, different expressions of fear. 476 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,320 You know, when I am in fear, I'll know it because maybe my 477 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,800 body's contracting. Maybe I feel like my shoulders 478 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:36,320 are tight, or I have a headache, or I might notice it because I'm 479 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,640 talking to myself in a really mean way. 480 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,360 Or maybe it's all the above. But these are all just 481 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,640 expressions. These are all the different ways 482 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,120 that fear makes itself known to me. 483 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,000 One of the things you said was interesting. 484 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,320 You said, you know, you'll with your coaching clients, for 485 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,160 example, you might share some of your experiences. 486 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,400 And I often think about professional sports, which I've 487 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,920 never played and I'm completely uncoordinated. 488 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,800 So no one's signing me up at any phase of my life for those. 489 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,880 But I've often thought about, you know, the coaches that 490 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,600 played the game and the coaches that didn't. 491 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,200 And if I was a player at the, you know, top of my game, which 492 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,960 what it takes to be a professional athlete in this 493 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,480 country, it's a, you know, funnel that really narrows it 494 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,040 down. You know, would I, would I be 495 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,040 able to shelve my ego and listen to a coach that maybe had never 496 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,480 played the game, but really knew the game? 497 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,720 Well, what do you think about that when it comes to coaching 498 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,480 clients? If you're coaching a business 499 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,440 leader, where where your. Yeah, you know, it's 500 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,720 interesting. So I have 2 answers to this. 501 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,280 One is like when I look for a coach, I specifically look for 502 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,680 someone who has already been on the path that I'm beginning to 503 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,920 walk on. For example, as I mentioned, I 504 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,800 had been working in the area of helping people recover from 505 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,800 chronic pain, stress related chronic pain syndromes. 506 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,960 And that's something I got into because I had struggled with 507 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,560 migraine headaches for like 10 years. 508 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:23,800 And I recovered through the work of chronic pain therapists who 509 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,680 speak a lot about their own recovery on podcasts and stuff 510 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,200 like that. And that just helped me so much 511 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,200 because they were showing me what, you know, not exactly what 512 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,480 my path was going to look like, but what a path could look like 513 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,000 because they had been on the path and then they had, you 514 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,320 know, subsequently led many clients on that path. 515 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,720 I work with two coaches at the moment. 516 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,840 I have a business coach that I work with, and I work with her 517 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,480 because of her experience in business and her success in 518 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,760 business. And I am a stepmom and so the 519 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,440 life coach that I work with with for, you know, on all kinds of 520 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,400 stuff, emotions, etcetera. I first started working with her 521 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,840 because she is a stepmom coach, because she is a stepmom and 522 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,400 she, you know, uses all of her experience to help other 523 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,400 stepmoms who are just starting out in that role. 524 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:29,080 So on the one hand, I think it's very, very helpful when the 525 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,000 coach has had a very relevant experience to you. 526 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,320 And a lot of the people that come to work with me, a lot of 527 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,840 them are creatives and I have a creative background. 528 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,199 I used to work in film and TV, and before that I was a 529 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:47,520 journalist and worked in publishing at the same time. 530 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,000 One of my favorite clients is a corporate lawyer, and that work 531 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,080 is like completely out of my realm. 532 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,600 I've never worked in that type of setting. 533 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,680 I've never worked in law. But we're a great fit. 534 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:08,000 And I think what makes us a great fit is that I bring the 535 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,600 nervous system lens to the human experiences that this client is 536 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,400 having. And while I may not have 537 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,720 experience with that context, I certainly have experiences with 538 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,160 feeling intimidated at a meeting full of other people even though 539 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,640 I'm on their same level. But somehow I'm not. 540 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,600 Like my nervous system doesn't know that I have the same level 541 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,160 of authority, you know? I really find it fascinating how 542 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,080 you, when you speak, you zoom in on the nervous system, which is 543 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:46,000 phenomenal and fascinating and endlessly worthy of exploration. 544 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:48,480 And I've never heard of something, you know, I think of 545 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,640 it as, you know, instant reactions to things. 546 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,040 And it's very interesting how you're at, you know, pain 547 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,520 pleasure, you know, the the scope of it. 548 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,000 But it's very interesting how you are saying you're bringing 549 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,680 that into your counseling process. 550 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,120 Yeah, I'm. How did you zoom in on that? 551 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,160 Because of the pain. Yes, that was exactly it. 552 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:17,840 So it, it was funny enough, it was while I was in Graduate 553 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,880 School to become a licensed mental health counselor that I 554 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,800 began studying the nervous system. 555 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,280 But I mean, this will might seem surprising, but I was not 556 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,920 studying it as part of my studies like, and I wasn't even 557 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,000 initially thinking of it in that way. 558 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,320 The reason I was studying it was because I was, I had been 559 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,640 experiencing migraine headaches for the last 10 years when I was 560 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,360 working in reality TV, doing totally different work as a 561 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,160 video editor. And then when I left my TV 562 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,840 career and went to grad school to become a therapist, I thought 563 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,600 that the headaches would subside because, you know, it's like 564 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,840 leaving this very high stress, high pressure career. 565 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,640 And I thought the stress is going to go down, the headaches 566 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,640 are going to go down. But the opposite happened. 567 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:17,720 And the way I understand it now, I certainly was confused by it 568 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:21,000 at the time, but the way I understand it now is that I 569 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,920 thought I was going to be stepping into a new environment 570 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,360 where I would feel free to be me. 571 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,280 I would feel like I could just be fully self expressed and talk 572 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,880 about my feelings and just, you know, feel all this ease. 573 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,760 But there were a lot of great things about grad school, but 574 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,400 there were also, you know, a lot of rules and a lot of things I 575 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,600 didn't agree with and a lot of situations where I felt like I 576 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,840 had to sort of hold my tongue in order to pass the class. 577 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,920 And so coming into it, like, ready to just open up and, like, 578 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,840 melt. But then getting there and kind 579 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,840 of like tightening up and contracting, I think that that 580 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,000 just sort of sent my nervous system into a spiral. 581 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,320 So the, the migraines started to really take over my life at that 582 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,240 point. And it finally, it hadn't been a 583 00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,400 huge part of my life up until then. 584 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,440 But when it really started to take over, you know, like 585 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,960 anybody who has a symptom that's really taking over their life, I 586 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,200 finally went to Google and was like, what the heck do I do 587 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,720 about this? And I have a holistic 588 00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:31,840 orientation. So I'm looking for, you know, 589 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,160 things that match that. And I discovered this whole 590 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,160 world of mind body medicine and specifically nervous system 591 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:45,080 education that was helping other people to recover from symptoms 592 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,400 like migraine. And it ultimately helped me 593 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,480 recover. So that was my motivation was to 594 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,680 to fix the problem I was having of of migraine headaches. 595 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,000 You know, something you said that was interesting was the 596 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:03,360 idea of, you know, I went to school and I thought this was 597 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,760 going to be freeing and instead there were these different 598 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,320 rules. That's actually something I hear 599 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,200 a lot from people now. And I also think about the, I 600 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,560 think there's pluses of that and I think there's minuses because 601 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,880 if you want to be, let's say, a brain surgeon, well, there are 602 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,200 definite rules on how you put capillaries back together, you 603 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,720 know, and you better know them, you know, but it's almost like 604 00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:32,360 there's a in a lot of different industries. 605 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,800 And it's also where I wonder about the impact of the Internet 606 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,080 that people are saying, well, I want to skip that part of the 607 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,000 learning, but it might be an essential part of the learning 608 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,600 because when you learn it and you have to suffer a little 609 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,560 through what you learn, you learn different forms of 610 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,960 discipline going forward. And it's also how you decide 611 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,600 what you like going forward or not. 612 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,280 Yes, I completely agree with you and especially on the brain 613 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:01,280 surgeon point, but but also I'm really glad that I went to grad 614 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,000 school. I'm glad that I went through the 615 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,680 process of getting licensed. I learned so much and a lot of 616 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,880 it was learning what I didn't agree with. 617 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:18,120 But I, you know, coming to deciding that you disagree with 618 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,320 something based on deep knowledge of that thing you're 619 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,840 disagreeing with is very different from just skipping 620 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,640 over it. That's an. 621 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,000 Excellent point. Yeah. 622 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,120 And for me that for me that really helped me build a lot of 623 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,800 confidence and self trust. I'm not saying that everyone 624 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,560 needs to get licensed in order to work with people. 625 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,720 Then as a coach, I work. I have been the client of many 626 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:46,880 coaches who don't have therapy licenses. 627 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,560 They have other life experience and expertise in training and 628 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,760 they're fantastic. But for me, that was really a 629 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,760 helpful part of my developing self trust as a coach actually. 630 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,440 Well, I. Your, your background is 631 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,000 actually what drew me to want to speak with you. 632 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:11,040 I get tons of people reaching out to me who are psychologists 633 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,520 in different fields and I'm really looking for experts in 634 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,440 certain areas. And then I, you know, get a lot, 635 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,120 obviously the hurdles to becoming a coach are a lot lower 636 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,320 than the hurdles of getting licensed. 637 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,840 OK, so that let's just put that on the table. 638 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,280 There's actually no hurdle to becoming a coach because it's 639 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,480 not a regulated field. Meaning like there are all kinds 640 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,120 of certifications you can get if you want to, but there are no 641 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:42,120 legal repercussions for just waking up one day and putting up 642 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,640 a website and an advertisement and saying I'm a coach. 643 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:50,040 Whereas if you put up a website and you know Psychology Today 644 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,520 listing saying I'm a psychotherapist and you aren't 645 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,680 licensed, that's a problem and you can get in trouble for it. 646 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,280 And let's talk about that since you're you said I'm giving up my 647 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,440 license over here on therapy side and there's no restrictions 648 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,960 to being a coach. How do you think people in 649 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,160 general, obviously it would be great if they called you, but if 650 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,760 you're if you're not in their, you know, their issue is not 651 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,560 your core expertise. How would you go about telling 652 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,160 people to look for that coach or therapist that's going to be? 653 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:35,240 Oh yeah, like, like my advice on on what people should look for. 654 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,280 Yeah, yeah, people do ask me this a lot. 655 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:44,960 And often times people ask me like, if I, especially if 656 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,520 they're looking for a therapist, they'll say what, what modality 657 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,200 should I look for? Because there are all these 658 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,360 different modalities and you know, they know that I, I'm 659 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,440 familiar with these modalities. So what do I think would be best 660 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:01,560 for them? And you know, if, if there is a 661 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,800 particular mode, if I know them reasonably well and there is a 662 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,240 particular modality I think they would like, I'll mention that to 663 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:13,200 them. But then the caveat is the most 664 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,160 important thing is how you feel when you're having a 665 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,160 conversation with this person. So prioritize that over what 666 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,200 training or modality they say that they use. 667 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:30,080 Because if you feel safe with someone and supported by them, 668 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,280 that means your nervous system is feeling safe. 669 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:39,560 And that means in their presence, you're able to soften 670 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:47,680 and open up enough to for changes to happen in your 671 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,840 nervous system, in your body and your mind and your spirit. 672 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,520 Like that means it's an environment in which you're 673 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,240 going to be able to open up enough to make the changes that 674 00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:02,680 you want to make. Whereas if you have a 675 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,120 conversation with this person and you're like, their resume 676 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,480 really impresses me and it's like ticks all my boxes. 677 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,800 And when I'm, but when I'm speaking to them, like I feel 678 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,640 all tense and self-conscious and I don't really feel like I trust 679 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,400 them on a gut level or I feel like I have to hide parts of 680 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,480 myself. It's just not going to be a 681 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,320 context in which you're going to be able to do the work you want 682 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,080 to do. If you were going to Fast 683 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,800 forward into five years into the future with the changes of 684 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:37,640 what's going on in healthcare insurance, psychology, and being 685 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,160 a therapist and licensed therapist versus a coach, what 686 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,000 would your crystal ball, your gut say of where those changes 687 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,560 are going to go? Just out of curiosity? 688 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,160 A fun a fun question. I mean, I don't have a crystal 689 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,280 ball obviously, but where where I see that things are going at 690 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:01,520 the present is deregulation, meaning that a lot of people are 691 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:09,120 leaving the licensure world to be free and do their own thing 692 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:14,800 and not be limited by a lot of the restrictions that exist in 693 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,040 that world. And the other thing that I see 694 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,120 is happening has to do with social media, like people are 695 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:28,600 finding coaches that they want to work with on platforms like 696 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,440 Instagram or through podcasts like this one. 697 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,600 You know, they're, they just have access to getting to know 698 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,480 people before deciding that they want to work with them. 699 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:45,240 And so, you know, I think things are moving more and more in the 700 00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:51,680 direction of things being based on forming personal 701 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:57,840 relationships with people rather than with licensing boards or 702 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,040 with names of well known modalities. 703 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,760 What that will look like, I'm really not sure because, you 704 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:12,120 know, somehow the the world of licensure is going to have to 705 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:20,760 adapt and yeah, evolve. But it's certainly an intriguing 706 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,160 thought, and I think it's going to shift. 707 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,040 And where those shifts fall out, I'm not sure. 708 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,520 But one of the things I think about a lot because I'm 709 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,560 constantly reading what's going on in the field of psychology, 710 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:41,160 is I'll equate it to a makeup artist, OK, an Instagram makeup 711 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,000 artist. I've been on set a lot of times 712 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,560 doing commercials, advertisements and ads. 713 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,440 And a few times someone would say, well, I hired this makeup 714 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,440 artist because I've seen their Instagram page. 715 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,960 It looks great. Well, that makeup artist comes 716 00:46:54,960 --> 00:47:00,160 on set and within 10 minutes the set is entirely destroyed. 717 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,240 The tension level has gone up exponentially because that 718 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,360 makeup artist was really good at doing their own makeup. 719 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,840 Yeah, but they weren't good at doing makeup on, let's say, 720 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,840 somebody with a different skin tone or different skin texture 721 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,960 or a different age skin or worse. 722 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,360 They only bought their makeup kit for their own their own self 723 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:28,680 instead of the entire makeup kit for a realm of ethnicities, 724 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:32,240 ages, and everything else that a professional would bring. 725 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,560 Yeah, and I know it's say a stretch on an analogy, but it's 726 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,040 not. And when everyone starts getting 727 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,680 their advice from Instagram and I have a very big community, 728 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,880 over 1,000,000 people read my contact content the month, I 729 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,680 wouldn't necessarily tell them. And I tell them constantly, 730 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,680 Don't take advice from me. I don't know you, you don't know 731 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,800 me. So I am sharing thoughts I have, 732 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,880 but I certainly don't suggest you. 733 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,160 You know, it's like my I maybe because I grew up with a mother 734 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,600 who said, OK, so if John jumps off the Brooklyn Bridge, you're 735 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,320 going to do it too. You know, so I were, I wonder 736 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,960 about this. I wonder about it for future 737 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,280 generations, grabbing their info and thinking just because 738 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,280 someone has a lot of followers, they're the person I should 739 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,240 listen to. I I think that's wrong. 740 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,920 So I'm going to share the a flip side. 741 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,720 To I love it, yes, that's what that's our goal in these 742 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,440 discussions. Yeah, I, I, I these are the most 743 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,800 interesting kind of in conversations, right? 744 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,360 When when we're not like exactly on the same page because we get 745 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:38,920 to learn from each other and like. 746 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,000 And we can do it without shouting, which is the goal of 747 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,760 this show. When isn't that really what the 748 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,320 world needs, especially right now? 749 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:56,400 So, you know, I, I've been a, a therapy client since before this 750 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:02,720 age of social media. And when I first went about 751 00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:08,520 looking for a therapist, all I really knew about them was that 752 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,960 they had a license. And I read their brief bio in 753 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,040 Psychology Today. If that was even if they even 754 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,280 had one, because I remember my, my first real therapist, I just 755 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,760 my best friend was seeing a therapist and he said, you know, 756 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,920 can your therapist recommend a therapist to me? 757 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,400 Which is a perfectly legit way of going about it. 758 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:38,560 So I got this recommendation. I went to see her and, you know, 759 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,760 I didn't even, I wasn't even going to shop around because how 760 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,760 do you even shop around in those days? 761 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,200 And I was pretty fortunate. It was I, I benefited from that 762 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,320 therapy relationship. But I know lots of other people 763 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,320 who had similar experiences where they just, you know, 764 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,120 they're like, well, that person's licensed and they were 765 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,840 recommended to me and they, you could have any range of 766 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,920 different kind of experience. I know people have had horrific 767 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:07,280 experiences and they didn't know that this wasn't unusual because 768 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,680 there's no context. They're not seeing other people 769 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,520 on social media talk about what a good therapist is, right? 770 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,760 They they don't. Yeah, they're they're not 771 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,680 hearing other people's experiences. 772 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:25,760 Whereas nowadays, when I want someone to help me with an 773 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,120 issue, like struggling with my role as a stepmom, for example, 774 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,440 I can listen to all these different podcast interviews 775 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,120 that this person spoke on. I can read everything they've 776 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,120 ever written on Instagram. So I really get a sense of what 777 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,680 is their point of view, what is their style? 778 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:47,360 Who are they as a person? I can kind of get to know them 779 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,440 and make an informed decision in a way that I couldn't have 780 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,680 before social media and podcasting. 781 00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:58,440 That's a very interesting perspective. 782 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,280 And you you raised some very good points and I've been 783 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,720 speaking with Anna Holtzman and you are really just very 784 00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:08,480 fascinating. I enjoyed every aspect of this 785 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,960 conversation truly from start to finish. 786 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,720 Me too, this is just a really enlivening conversation. 787 00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:18,640 Thank you so much. Everybody, I'm Diane Grassell. 788 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,240 This has been the silver despedience perception Dynamics 789 00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:25,240 podcast and we've been recording in iconic Manhattan center. 790 00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:29,760 We're in TV Studio 2 where, Oh my gosh, some greats have either 791 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,640 practiced here or played here or filmed shows here. 792 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,720 So it's a true honor to be here. Anna Holtzman was my guest. 793 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,560 We had a great conversation and all her information is below. 794 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,360 And I highly encourage you follow her on social media, get 795 00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,120 in touch, say hello, tell her how much you enjoyed her 796 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,000 episode, and please hit subscribe. 797 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,560 I'm Diane Grissel again, please hit subscribe and share this 798 00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:58,440 with your friends and come back often. 799 00:51:58,600 --> 00:51:59,080 Thank you.