1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,320 Hello everyone and welcome to the Silver Disbedience 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,920 Perception Dynamics podcast. I'm Diane Grissell and today 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,680 we're going to be talking about music. 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,960 Music is a subject, a language that everyone can relate to on 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,600 one level and or another, no matter where you are in the 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,160 world. And we're going to be talking 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,040 about that world component as well. 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,560 And think about it when you know, if you think back in 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,760 music, you can think of a song, any song. 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,080 You probably remember where you were when you first heard it, 11 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,480 who you were with, the feeling that it evoked. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,200 And how many times do you hear something as simple as OK, and I 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:51,920 Can't Sing, but it brings you to something in your head where you 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,960 heard that possibly if you were as old as me, it was the high 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,040 school band that it was probably the only song they could play. 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,760 But if they played it all night long, everybody was happy. 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,840 So today we're going to be talking with someone who took a 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:13,440 wish and made it a reality. He put in the time, the effort, 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,720 the community to make something really big, which is music will. 20 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:25,800 So I want to welcome Dave Wish, who is the founder of Music 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,560 Will, and we're going to learn all about this today because 22 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,160 this is a great topic. Thank you, Diane. 23 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,760 Great to be here. OK, I have to start with the 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,960 elephant in the room question. Sure is wish your real last name 25 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:40,080 or is it a stage name? No, it's my real name, David 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,480 Wish, and often I have to explain. 27 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,440 No, it's just the way it sounds. WISH. 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,400 What a great name. Thank you. 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,440 So you had a wish one day. I did. 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,520 You started off as a elementary school, I believe, first grade 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,560 teacher. Were you a music teacher? 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,520 No, I was the most unlikely first grade teacher, maybe of 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,320 all first grade teachers, because I like to joke. 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,360 I'm an an expert in first grade because I taught it for 10 35 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,000 years, but I also took it for two years as a kid. 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,160 I was so good at it. They wanted me to show the other 37 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,760 kids what was what. No, but yeah, so I think a lot 38 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,480 of teachers that I had would have been like, wait, that guy's 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,320 growing up to be a school teacher? 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,760 Growing up is debatable, but I did become a school teacher and 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,960 I was a first grade school teacher in a bilingual school. 42 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,240 So all of my kids were Spanish speakers. 43 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,880 And my focus was very much on how do you work with a recently 44 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,240 or, you know, these these were recently arrived immigrants from 45 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,200 Mexico. How do you work with a young 46 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,760 child who hasn't yet learned to read in their primary language? 47 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,480 How do you help them acquire English and how do you help them 48 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:47,840 acquire literacy, how to read? Because reading is that's the 49 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,640 jam in first grade big time. And I was very proud that all of 50 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:55,560 my kids for my 10 years read at or above grade level each and 51 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,280 every year. And so my focus was really on 52 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,280 how do you make the learning of a second language really fun and 53 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,960 natural and easy the way it is when you learn your first 54 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,880 language, you're not even conscious that you're learning 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,000 it. And how do you make reading 56 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,080 something that's really exciting for any child? 57 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,720 So those were the two, those were my 2 areas, but the school 58 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,160 had no music program and and that's when I one day I was 59 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,720 like, wait a minute, I could teach these kids to play guitar. 60 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:29,800 And that was really the beginning of the last 27 years 61 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,960 of my life. You know what you're talking 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,680 about is probably more timely than ever. 63 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,360 I was speaking with a second grade teacher just a couple of 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,160 weeks ago and she said her class has, and she's in one of the 65 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,320 special and gifted New York City public schools teaching 2nd 66 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,520 grade. And she said her class has now 67 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,720 nine kids who speak only Spanish, three who speak 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,880 Russian, two who speak some version of Arabic, and then the 69 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,200 rest speak English. And she said it's really 70 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,080 becoming an incredible challenge to try to teach because you've 71 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,640 got all these different languages. 72 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,560 And I said, well, can you use Google Translate? 73 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,520 She goes, you'd have to be able to read to be able to use that. 74 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,680 And it never occurred to me. So you used music? 75 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:23,800 Well, I used music to, you know, it wasn't so connected to my 76 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:24,920 first. So it's interesting. 77 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,080 I started teaching my kids to play guitar and I did it by feel 78 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,160 because I didn't stick with any music program I ever had as a 79 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:33,560 kid. I was dyslexic. 80 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,360 I didn't read music. I didn't really relate to the 81 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:37,840 music that they were trying to teach me. 82 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:40,680 I mean, I my parents were playing Little Richard, Chuck 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,280 Berry, Stevie Wonder, and my music teacher was teaching me 84 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:47,200 old King once is lost, three Blind mice and etcetera. 85 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,800 So it I wasn't like, I was like, Oh, I'm cool. 86 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,520 And that's not, I just like I couldn't really find my way and, 87 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,960 and I didn't feel especially welcomed in my music classes 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:58,760 either because I just didn't fit, fit the mold. 89 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,040 So when I started teaching, I learned to play music outside of 90 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,960 school entirely. Friends in high school taught me 91 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,360 older sisters, older brothers, you know, and they taught me in 92 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,520 a, in a more informal, culturally forward way. 93 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,760 Oh, you want to play Neil Young? OK, here's put your fingers 94 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,280 here. Put your fingers there. 95 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:20,280 Learn a couple chords and the first time I strung together 96 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:23,560 anything that sounded like a song that I loved, I was like, 97 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:25,920 that's it. You know what's so funny? 98 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,000 What you said, because in your bio I saw somewhere Hal Leonard. 99 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,560 Oh, yeah. And that brought me back to the 100 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,080 what you just said a moment ago about playing contemporary music 101 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,680 because I could play a mean version of She'll Be Coming 102 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,120 Around the Mountain, which really dates me. 103 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,320 But that's what I could play when I taught myself guitar and 104 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,520 when I saw the Hell Leonard thing that triggered that 105 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,920 memory. But then that you focused on 106 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,520 contemporary music. Yeah. 107 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,200 Well, I, I had the same experience when I, when I 108 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,880 started teaching my kids to play, I went out and I tried to 109 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,640 buy method books like a good teacher, but I looked at it and 110 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,280 it was like, yeah, she'll be coming around the mountain. 111 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,400 I'm not doing that. I mean, I had never heard the 112 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,800 song before trying to figure out how to play it, so how do you 113 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,680 have a reference? Well, and and one of the things 114 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,880 I'd like to say to people is that there's a saying bread and 115 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,840 water can so easily be made tea and toast. 116 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,800 So take a song like coming around the mountain. 117 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,880 She'll be if one chord 1 chord 1 chord 1 chord 1 and then then 118 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,840 you go to the four chord back to one. 119 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:31,320 Yeah, but but also you could also do your insecure don't know 120 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,600 what for or or you're turning heads as you walk through the 121 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,160 door or whatever. Now you're teaching a kid same 122 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,760 chords, but that is you know, I forget what boy band that, but 123 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,560 that was a number one hit. You know, everyone else in the 124 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,320 world can see everyone else. You don't know you're beautiful. 125 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,800 I think One Direction, so that's, you know, so she'll be 126 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,720 coming around the mountain and what this One Direction song, 127 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:03,360 same musical DNA, but a much deeper heartfelt cultural 128 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,440 resonance and connection in music, I don't think. 129 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,240 And you feel cooler instantly. If you're struggling with 130 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,920 learning, all of a sudden you feel cool that you can play some 131 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,720 song that's on the radio. Absolutely. 132 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,640 And I also like to think music is not first and foremost an 133 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,200 academic subject. And music doesn't come from 134 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,360 school. Music is a human, is a byproduct 135 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,280 of humanity. And in fact, one of the most 136 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,960 beautiful things that humans produce is music. 137 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,400 And they do it all over the world, whether or not they're in 138 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,680 school or not. So music goes comes to school, I 139 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,640 believe, not from school, even whether it's being brought there 140 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,240 by the teacher who will bring it. 141 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,720 But every child comes. They're not empty vessels. 142 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,600 They come with the music that is culturally relevant to them and 143 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,080 their communities and their families. 144 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,160 And so, yeah, my, my thing was to teach kids music the way that 145 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,800 I wished music had been taught to me. 146 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,800 If someone had told me in 6th grade, hey, we're going to teach 147 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,040 you how to play guitar, I would have said heck yeah. 148 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,840 And if they said and and we're going to teach you how to play 149 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,520 Led Zeppelin, I would have said double heck yeah. 150 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,120 But but what happened to me was I wanted to play guitar, and 151 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,920 they didn't offer it. So I tried this other thing that 152 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,640 looked like a guitar was called a violin, you know? 153 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,040 And after a short while, I was like, you know, what am I going 154 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:19,320 to do with this? And I remember I went into 155 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,960 school and I asked my music teacher if he would show me. 156 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,440 I was like, oh, I know I could play that Beatles song. 157 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,920 So I went in and I told my teacher, can you please show me 158 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,360 how to play Eleanor Rigby on this thing? 159 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,039 Because that song I like. And I remember he said, no, you 160 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:34,480 get that at home. You know, we do serious music 161 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,280 here. And that's when I had realized 162 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,840 that I had a serious difference of opinion as to how education 163 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,080 in general could be student centered versus teachers. 164 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,840 You know, you've raised such an interesting point. 165 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,040 There was no guitar teaching in the school I went to either, and 166 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,120 I don't think I've ever seen that in or in. 167 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,240 Maybe now a little more thanks to the work you're doing, but 168 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,960 why was guitar? Was it related to Rock'n'roll? 169 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:06,080 Or why is guitar not considered? Well, I mean, I think that what 170 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,600 music? So it's beyond instruments. 171 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,160 What music is taught and what music is not taught in state 172 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:19,720 schools is reflective of what cultures are and are not valued 173 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,840 by state schools. So there was a. 174 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,760 So right now, if you look in public schools around the 175 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,280 country, there are tons of jazz bands. 176 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:31,640 And jazz is now wild, widely heralded as a American cultural 177 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,600 treasure, one of the few truly American art forms. 178 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,520 That's not how it started out. And in fact, people work really 179 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,640 hard to keep jazz out of our schools. 180 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,000 They originally called jazz band stage band so that they wouldn't 181 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,000 have to say they were teaching jazz to kids. 182 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:52,000 That's what progressive liberal educators, you know, did in 183 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,400 order to get jazz into the curriculum. 184 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,600 Now, that was true that it was the popular American Music in 185 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,320 the 40s and 50s and maybe a little in the 60s. 186 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,160 But since that time, other incredible American art forms, 187 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:09,040 rock'n'roll, hip hop, you know, all of pop music have also come. 188 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,960 And they've also been slow. It's been slow for the schools 189 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,320 to adopt them. And that's been my mission from 190 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,080 day one is to democratize music education and make it 191 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:23,200 reflective, as diverse and beautiful as the schoolchildren 192 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,880 that it serves. And those children listen to by 193 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,440 and large, music of their community, Rock, rap, disco, 194 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,920 pop, Top 40. And because I look at it as a 195 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,480 cultural treasure as opposed to a subject, it's like the 196 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,360 richness of music class actually comes from the students. 197 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,000 And it's up to us to draw that, to draw their music out as 198 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,880 opposed to drum any particular music in. 199 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,960 And furthermore, I might add, while I'm sitting on my soapbox 200 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:59,160 here, that this notion of there being a right kind of music to 201 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,520 learn or a right way to teach music or a right thing to focus 202 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,400 on. I take a page out of Sergey 203 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:10,400 Rachmaninoff said that a lifetime, you know, music is 204 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,280 enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for 205 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,320 music. So what does that mean? 206 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,800 OK, I'm the best jazz saxophonist in the world. 207 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,480 Great. Did you reach the end? 208 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,760 How about this? Can you play Indian tabla? 209 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,040 Can you play classical Chinese music? 210 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,120 No. OK, well, guess what? 211 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,600 That would take you another lifetime to get there. 212 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,400 Can you freestyle rap like, you know, Kendrick Lamar? 213 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,080 Oh, you can't. Well, then there's another 214 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,200 lifetime for you. And so this notion, So I guess 215 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:42,840 my, my central supposition is that to be human is to be 216 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,920 musical. It's almost a synonym. 217 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,760 And that means that if all humans are musical by their 218 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,720 nature, there is many different ways of being musical as there 219 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,640 are of being human. And the skillful teacher 220 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,840 empowers their student to be musical the way that is most 221 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,000 befitting them. And that that that translates to 222 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,240 instruments. Maybe guitar is not your thing. 223 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,680 Maybe you want to be a DJ, you want to be a rapper. 224 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:12,520 OK. Oh, you don't like being a DJ or 225 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,120 rapper? Well, maybe you want to be a 226 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,000 bass guitarist or you want to be a songwriter and trying to 227 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,600 squeeze children into artistic molds. 228 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,080 I think what happens is the people that don't fit often get 229 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,120 left out. And so there's no shortage of 230 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,120 people that I meet adults who, when you ask them if they play. 231 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:33,120 Yeah. Do you play in the. 232 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,080 Oh, well, when I was a kid, I took lessons on this or that. 233 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,600 It's always some variation. I wasn't very good. 234 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,040 I'll hear a lot or I didn't practice, but the punch line is 235 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,280 almost always the same. And now I wish I could play. 236 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,840 I, you know, it's like regret syndrome. 237 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,120 And I think that, you know, I don't blame, I never blame the 238 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:53,320 student. I'm a teacher. 239 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,320 Like I always blame, blames a heavy word. 240 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,160 But I would say that if you were to find the root of the problem, 241 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,640 it's the pedagogy, it's the approach, you, you. 242 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,240 It was a mismatch between a child's natural musicality or an 243 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,320 adult's and connecting to connecting that to them in the 244 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,640 way that made most sense for them in their learning style. 245 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:18,400 Well, the other thing too is you're you're pushing music 246 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,400 forward and you're obviously can see all the different ways kids 247 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,400 learn from it and community learn to communicate better from 248 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,000 it. Yet it's music and art are the 249 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,960 first things often cut from budgets. 250 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,720 So what do you what do you think about that? 251 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,640 Because it's not just whether you were were exposed to jazz 252 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,360 versus classical, your kids just aren't getting exposed in a lot 253 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,760 of situations at all, which is kind of where your your vision 254 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,360 came in. Well, you bring up a really good 255 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,440 point. So I've I have said the same 256 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,600 frequently. You know, that's the you know 257 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,520 that music and arts are first to be cut. 258 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,520 There isn't there is a deficit right now. 259 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,800 It's much smaller than most people realize. 260 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,480 So, for example, there's approximately, call it 55 to 60 261 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,920 million K through 12 students in the United States right now, and 262 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,320 approximately 3 million of them don't get music of any kind in 263 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,200 their schools. So that's a problem, but but 264 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,480 it's not as big a problem as it may be. 265 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,760 It looms in the popular imagination. 266 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,400 That's good to know. It is good to know and, and like 267 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,280 everything like, you know, sometimes the, the problem is 268 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,400 not as big as as we think and the solution is small as 269 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,600 sometimes is smaller than the problem itself. 270 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,600 And I think with music education, arts education, this 271 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,920 is a good example. So, so I'm going to give your, 272 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,280 your audience and you a very a 22nd lesson in music at in the 273 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,040 United States, when there's a music teacher, it's compulsory K 274 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,200 through 5, meaning you have to go. 275 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,520 So what do you have participation rates of 100% 276 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,080 Sounds great. Now what about middle schools 277 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,520 and high schools? Well, now participation becomes 278 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,800 elective. That means a child has to say, I 279 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,040 want to take music. And what happens? 280 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,080 The statistics show in the United States that schools that 281 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:15,320 do have music programs, often at the middle school level, 20% or 282 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,920 fewer of the students will opt in. 283 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,520 And then when high school comes, even fewer will opt in. 284 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,600 Why now? I I would say I in my my 285 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,920 observation is on the surface that makes no sense because 286 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,080 teenagers will listen to more music likely than they ever will 287 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,840 again in their lifetimes, and many of them will define and 288 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,960 remember their use and their identities with that same music 289 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,280 as they grow older. There are studies that show that 290 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:47,640 the music you listen to as a teenager is the most sticky, 291 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,680 tenacious music. And typically you'll continue to 292 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,440 listen to and like that music. You might expand, but that'll be 293 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,520 the core of who you are musically. 294 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,920 So why would people drop music just at that moment? 295 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,880 Because the musical pedagogy that is offered at school offers 296 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,280 no connective tissue to the musics that children are 297 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,240 carrying in their heart. So if I'm a kid and I'm 298 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,200 listening to nonstop rock'n'roll and I get into my music class 299 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,840 and my options are classical, jazz and children and folk 300 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,360 music, well, you know, I'm not that, you know it's. 301 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,880 Funny you say that because you remind me of our kids when they 302 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,240 were little, went to a music and art school and everything was 303 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,720 you danced, you play, everyone got some kind of instrument. 304 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,200 It was very interactive. And he goes into kindergarten 305 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,800 and he comes home and he's extremely upset. 306 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,360 Like really upset. I'm like, how could this kid be 307 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,520 upset? He loves music. 308 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,880 I know he had music today. And he says the music teacher's 309 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,640 terrible. She doesn't know how to teach 310 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,520 music. She knows nothing about music. 311 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,320 This is like a very well known music teacher the school had 312 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,200 recruited. I'm like, what's the matter? 313 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,400 And she goes, she told me I can't dance when I'm, when I'm 314 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:05,400 singing. You know the inside of a 5 year 315 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,960 old. You know that she's like, she 316 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,240 told me I had to hold the sheet music and stand still. 317 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,319 What kind of teacher would tell someone that Mom? 318 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:15,000 Right. Oh my gosh. 319 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,440 Well, it reminds me of of an apocryphal quote attributed to 320 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,599 John Lennon. So John Lennon, this is again 321 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,720 apocryphal in the in the land of fake news. 322 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,520 I don't like to, you know, I don't like to pressure, but it's 323 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,400 a great quote. The teacher said, go home and 324 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,160 write an essay about what you want to be when you grow up. 325 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,320 And, you know, and he says I want to be happy. 326 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,560 So the teacher says, I don't think you understood the 327 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,760 assignment. And John Lennon purportedly 328 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,640 said, I don't think you understand life because let 329 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,120 purpose of life is a life of purpose and enjoyment. 330 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:52,760 So to me, you know, and into your daughter's experience, 331 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:53,960 what? It's such a, you know, Yeah. 332 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,920 From the mouth of babes there, I think there are certain African 333 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,680 languages where to sing and to dance are literally the same 334 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,520 verb, right? And it there it's not as 335 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,560 differentiated. So if you're dancing and you're 336 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,640 singing, you use the same word and it's context clues to let 337 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,520 you know. So this notion, that's a very 338 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:20,280 Western Conservatory top down approach to music education, 339 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,800 that the music comes from paper and notes. 340 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,520 I would actually posit that music comes from the heart and 341 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,320 from the person and the notes and the dots and the paper. 342 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,840 That's an afterthought and not even necessarily a needed 343 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,560 afterthought. If you look at music throughout 344 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,600 history and in the human family, if you take Indian classical 345 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,040 music, which has traditions that go back thousands of years, in 346 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,080 Chinese classical music, same thing. 347 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:49,280 None of it was notated, none of it was written down so clearly. 348 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:53,080 Having the ability to write music can be wonderful, but it 349 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:54,960 doesn't. Music doesn't come from 350 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,880 notation. Music comes from people. 351 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,760 Now from that, let's go back. You're you're a first grade 352 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,000 teacher and I want to go back to those days. 353 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,680 So because you have this vision that you built out. 354 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:11,120 So you're a first grade teacher and you are getting kids to play 355 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,720 music somehow. What did that? 356 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,920 What did those early days of getting kids to play music look 357 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,640 like? And what did the the teachers in 358 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,520 the classroom next door think when you're doing that? 359 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,960 So my first I went to the music store, tried to buy a book to 360 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,840 show me how to teach kids to play guitar. 361 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,920 I'd never done it before. I begged and borrowed a bunch of 362 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,840 guitars from my friends, my musician friends who owed me 363 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:40,000 money or favors or both, and I couldn't find anything that was 364 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,040 meaningful. So the first day of my guitar 365 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,920 class for my first grade kids after school, I said, I want you 366 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,120 to write down the names of your favorite songs on one side of 367 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:49,480 this card and your names of your favorite artist. 368 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,360 And it was Selena and the Backstreet Boys and Carlos 369 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:56,200 Santana and that kind of stuff. And so I was like, great, that's 370 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,640 what we're going to do. And that's exactly what we did. 371 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,960 I taught them to play the music that they knew and loved. 372 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,800 And because I'm, you know, a fairly advanced player myself, I 373 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,080 could simplify things, though. Selena bitty bitty bumber mints 374 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,040 and B flat. Oh fool, that's a pain on the 375 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,360 guitar. So we'll just do it in a 376 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,480 whatever. And and what, what happened very 377 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,200 quickly is that my kids started interacting with music exactly 378 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,920 the same way I had, except I was 18 when I started and they were 379 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,880 six and seven. And which is to say? 380 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:30,440 What they they devoured a few chords and started apply. 381 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,880 Oh, if I can play Biddy Biddy Bum Bum, I can also play Angel 382 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,160 by Shaggy. And if I can play Angel by 383 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,120 Shaggy, I can also play One Love by Bob Marley. 384 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:45,920 And so the kids started playing frequently, in and out of class, 385 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,880 out on the lawn after school, the music that they knew and 386 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,640 loved. And all the other kids in the 387 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,840 school wanted to be in my guitar class. 388 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,600 Oh, I bet. And so. 389 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,520 And it's funny too when you talk about, you know, the B flat 390 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,920 versus the A you reminded me of. I'm a self-taught guitarist, but 391 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:11,960 I do credit Mr. Leora, Mr. Lorenzo, who ran the church folk 392 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,840 group, but let me join. But I do remember very vividly 393 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,120 him one day saying somebody's out of key. 394 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,520 I'm like, I don't know, it can't be me. 395 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,520 But it was much easier to play AC chord than an F. 396 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,800 Absolutely. So I kept trying to squeeze that 397 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,920 C in every time. Does this work here? 398 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,400 You know, so it's interesting that you talk about, you know, 399 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,560 accommodating the music to those hands that are trying to learn 400 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,720 because some chords are a lot harder when you're, you know. 401 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,320 Absolutely. Well, and So what what I would 402 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,240 do with things like that, I'd be like, OK, I have a group of 36 403 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,840 kids. You know, I'd be like Diane, 404 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,480 you're going to play a that's all you play, you know, so the 405 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,560 song goes AADEDD back to you a cool. 406 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,600 Well, this is what I'm talking about in terms of pedagogy, in 407 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,880 terms of approach. If I think that for you to be 408 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,880 musical, you must be able to easily go from A to D to E 409 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,200 without pausing, you may fall down at the first hurdle. 410 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,640 And if I think that if that defines success to me, then I 411 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,400 may also. That might be my value. 412 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,240 I guess Diane doesn't have it. Well, I refuse to think that 413 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,880 way. I can't think that way. 414 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,240 It didn't work that way. If you. 415 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,440 Just gave me goosebumps. I love to hear this. 416 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,200 Well, what a wonderful way to teach someone. 417 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,160 But I. Think that well, I'm glad that 418 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,200 it makes you feel good. This turns out music has that 419 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,280 magical power. It tends to make people feel 420 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,120 good. And I, what I have learned in my 421 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,920 study of the human family and how we make music is how few 422 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,840 people are comfortable in their own skin with their own music. 423 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,120 I've met some of the best known musicians in the world who when 424 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,440 you really talk to them, they'll tell you they, they get nervous 425 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,280 and they feel like impostors. Why? 426 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,000 Well, you know, you're, you're, excuse me, your first chair in 427 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,200 the New York orchestra as the, you know, principal violinist. 428 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,040 Why are you? Well, because I can't improvise. 429 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,880 Well, OK, I get that. But like, look at what you can 430 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:17,920 do. And yet you're not. 431 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,400 You don't feel. Well, one of my favorite 432 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,720 interviews was with Mick, with an interview with Mick Jagger. 433 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,320 And it was says they were doing their 50th year. 434 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,160 Maybe that was the steel wheels or something like that. 435 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,480 And they said to him, you know, this is old hat to you now. 436 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,920 Do you ever get nervous? You know, and he's like, did you 437 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,920 ever notice my first song? I never walk out holding the 438 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,200 microphone. And he said, I don't touch that 439 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,040 microphone. My hands are sweating. 440 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,360 I have no idea if the audience is going to still think we're 441 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,800 relevant. Goes, and I don't want a chance. 442 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,560 It slips out of my hand until I know the crowd's with me. 443 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,560 I thought, Oh my gosh, Mick Jagger says that. 444 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,640 Yeah, and the more that I talk with art, like, you know, I was 445 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,200 talking with the drummer. I'll reveal who he is in a 446 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,160 second. He was told by his middle school 447 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,160 he couldn't do the buzz roll on the Star Spangled Banner. 448 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,520 And so, you know, he tried and he tried. 449 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,000 And his drum teacher, the music teacher at the school said, hey, 450 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,840 DeVito, hang up the sticks. You'll never do anything with 451 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,400 the drums. That drummer is is Liberty 452 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,640 DeVito, who was Billy Joel for 30 years, one of the most 453 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,080 recorded artists in the world, one of the most recorded 454 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,400 drummers of all time. And he still carries the scars 455 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,760 and the weight of feeling judge. So to me, you take people on one 456 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800 end of the and people like Mick Jagger and Billy Joel and The 457 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,120 Beatles, who are not classically trained and feel like they're 458 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,320 impostors, feel unworthy. And then you find people on the 459 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,720 other side, these incredibly classically trained people, and 460 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,600 they feel like impostors. And what I feel like is when I 461 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,880 say I want to democratize music education and just music in 462 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,920 general. Like you're all worthy, everyone 463 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,160 of you in the entire continuum. There's no wrong way to be human 464 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,200 other than deliberately harming other people. 465 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,400 But other than that, you'd be yourself. 466 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,720 And that's the beauty of what the arts bring. 467 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,320 They'll never be another Diane. They'll never be another person 468 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,680 will express their musicality exactly like yours, and the more 469 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,160 time you put in, the more joy you'll get from it. 470 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,680 And the more the more you're forced to conform to someone 471 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,040 else's expectations, the easier it is for you to feel like, 472 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,960 well, maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe I'm not worthy. 473 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,080 OK, so now back in the 90s, you're still in that first grade 474 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,000 classroom and you've got the teachers listening in. 475 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:43,360 How did you start to enroll others in this evolutionary 476 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:47,680 crazy new way you were trying to teach and bring music into kids 477 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,560 lives? Well, we started releasing CD's 478 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,840 of the kids original music. The kids started writing their 479 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,320 own music. Oh my gosh. 480 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,840 So we started recording the my classroom was the recording 481 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,040 studio. Teachers started asking if they 482 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,120 could be in my guitar classes as well. 483 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,240 So I opened more and more classes. 484 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,320 I would sell tapes and CD's of the kids original music and buy 485 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,200 more instruments. So then the second graders could 486 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,520 have a class or the 3rd or the 4th or the 5th or. 487 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,160 And and eventually those those CD's got played on the radio 488 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,320 where they were noticed by local musicians like Bonnie Raitt and 489 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,080 Carlos Santana and John Lee Hooker. 490 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,160 May he rest in peace and power. And all of them came by and all 491 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,880 of them supported this weird program, this weird first grade 492 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,880 school teacher. And I started to dawn on me that 493 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,600 I was on to something bigger than only my kids and my 494 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,320 classes. And so I, it got to the point 495 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,960 where I couldn't take on any more kids. 496 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,160 But I, I had a, a whole phalanx of teacher admirers who were 497 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,640 either studying alongside of the kids, which was great for me 498 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,200 because I had free teachers aides, you know, or who could 499 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,200 play themselves, but didn't have any kids, you know, didn't have 500 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,400 instrument seats. And I said, look, let me train 501 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,480 you. I will, I, let me show you my 502 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,520 approach, my pedagogy. So the thing that you said where 503 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,040 you got, you got, you said you've suddenly felt excited to 504 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,920 think that you'd be in a class with me where you would play the 505 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,600 A chord and you didn't have to go to the D chord right away. 506 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,680 Well, guess what? A lot of teachers felt the same 507 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,080 way. Like, wait a minute, I never 508 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,480 would have thought of that. And So what really I brought to 509 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,400 the table for my peers and what I think I continue to bring is a 510 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,800 unique pedagogy unlike any other pet. 511 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,480 Well, excuse me, like. Well, my one of our supporters 512 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,880 is this nice guy named James Hetfield, lead singer and 513 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,560 guitarist of Yeah. You're my favorites. 514 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,560 He sent me an e-mail one time and I loved the sign off, it 515 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,560 said. I'm unique just like everybody 516 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,080 else. I was like, no wonder I like 517 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,720 this guy. But but our, so our pedagogy is 518 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,080 unique like every other pedagogy and like every other pedagogy 519 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,920 has a lot in common with a little bit from this, a little 520 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,000 bit from that. But the way I've put it together 521 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,720 is unique. I call it music as a second 522 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,000 language comes from that classroom. 523 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,520 And so getting teachers involved very easy because they saw the 524 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,800 result. They they saw what was happening 525 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,440 for the kids and many of them experienced what it was like for 526 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,320 them. Their own musicality really 527 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,040 changed. They start to look at them 528 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,360 selves differently in their own musicianship. 529 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,200 And I started having suddenly I had more resources than I could 530 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,800 use because we were only at one school. 531 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:28,640 So it dawned on me like, wait a minute, there are other schools 532 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,320 where there's this problem where kids aren't getting music or if 533 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,720 they're getting music, they're getting it in a way that doesn't 534 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,520 connect to them. So I left teaching in 2002 to 535 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,520 found what would go what it was called Little Kids Rock at the 536 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,680 time. We changed our name a few years 537 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,040 back and since that time. And now it's music. 538 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,440 Will now it's music. Will we changed the name back in 539 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,640 2022. Little Kids Rock was a little 540 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,400 misleading because yes, we work with little kids and. 541 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,840 Those kids started to get bigger and they still wanted to rock 542 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,280 with Dave Wish. And all our teachers and yeah, 543 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,400 so we have programs in middle schools, elementary schools, 544 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,520 high schools, even at the college level. 545 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,680 We now have programs because, well, here I'll just say this, 546 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,920 Music will for 24 some years now has been doing the same thing we 547 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,160 have. We, I like to call them the four 548 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,200 CS. We recruit teachers and we 549 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,240 certify them. That's the first C. 550 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,440 We give them our training. And so they learn about our 551 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,280 pedagogy over a period of days and then they're trained. 552 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440 Then we give them all of our curriculum, which is driven by 553 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,120 that pedagogy. That's free. 554 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,280 And then we give them classroom instruments. 555 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,800 That's the third C guitars, basses, keys, etcetera. 556 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,240 And then we put them together in community. 557 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,200 That's the 4th C. They are like a community of 558 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,280 practice. So for 24 years, we've been 559 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,240 doing that. And that has been the secret 560 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,520 sauce that it is a community effort of teachers who want to 561 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,280 see music education be as diverse and beautiful as the 562 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,320 full student body that they serve. 563 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,560 And they understand, especially music teachers understand that, 564 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,480 that dropping out, that opting out is a problem we cannot 565 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,520 accept. You can't tell me like in in a 566 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,720 district like Los Angeles, fewer than 10% of all high school kids 567 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,360 will take a music class It's crazy. 568 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,760 It's the heart of the music industry. 569 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,280 There's only one there. Yes, there are some. 570 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,040 Why? Do you think that is is it 571 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,960 they're not available or is it kids get embarrassed or is it 572 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,480 the impact of the Internet? What I think? 573 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,960 I think there are understandable and acceptable reasons like, you 574 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,000 know, so many hours in a day, I want to do sports, etcetera. 575 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,440 But when you can't wait, but you can't, that doesn't factor that 576 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,320 90% of kids who are like, Nope, not for me. 577 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,360 Well, to me, it's like it's, it's the cultural disconnect. 578 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,080 I, I'm listening to this kind of music. 579 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,480 I don't want to learn that kind of music. 580 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,760 And so about 10 years ago, I invented, this is one of my 581 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,800 other little creations, a new category of music education, 582 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:09,200 which I call modern band. Now it's a boring term. 583 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,760 I picked it because it's boring. And I'll again like a 32nd, you 584 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,600 know, edge history music lesson or music education history 585 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,240 lesson. Your listeners will probably 586 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,400 have heard of marching band in schools, and they'll be able to 587 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,920 pick your da, da, da da or orchestra or jazz band. 588 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,760 What they will not know, likely, is modern band. 589 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,600 They also won't know stage band because no one uses that term 590 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,800 anymore. Stage band is what they used to 591 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,960 call jazz band. Why did they? 592 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,680 Why didn't they just call it jazz band? 593 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,440 Because it was too culturally fraught, the idea that they 594 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,600 would take the popular American Music of the day and teach it to 595 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,400 American children. The actual music that was being 596 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,440 listened to actually being taught and valued in schools. 597 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,640 So again, progressive educators called it stage band just to 598 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,200 slip it in. So I was like, oh, that worked 599 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,000 once in the 60s. And we are not embracing the 600 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:13,200 cultural music of today. Rap, rock, pop, Top 40, Taylor 601 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,080 Swift, Beyoncé, all of that. Let's do it again. 602 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,000 And so I came up with this idea of modern band and districts 603 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,160 around the country have started writing it into their 604 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,160 curriculum. And we are now also partnering 605 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,240 with over a hundred colleges and universities across the United 606 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,760 States that have music education majors who are going to, you 607 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,640 know, people are going to go on to become music teachers. 608 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,960 And we're training them in in modern band approach in music as 609 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,760 a second language pedagogy before they get in the classroom 610 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,880 so that when they graduate, today's music teachers will be 611 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:53,240 ready to serve today's students by teaching them the music of 612 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,320 today, along with all of these other wonderful things like jazz 613 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,640 music and classical and et cetera. 614 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,600 But again, no one of those is going to fire on every piston 615 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,640 for every child. And we have to have music 616 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,840 education reflect the students it serves because music serves 617 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,160 children. Children don't serve music. 618 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,280 The educational system serves children. 619 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,560 Children don't serve. We don't have kids going to 620 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,920 school to impress us with their test scores. 621 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,760 We have kids going to school so that they can we can put 622 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,560 something of lasting value in their lives that will benefit 623 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,280 them for the rest of their lives. 624 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,760 And to me, it's always really bothered me that people miss out 625 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,560 on having music, not even because they don't have access 626 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,040 to a music teacher, but because it lacks relevance. 627 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,120 And they, you know, so they opt out. 628 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,040 And, and, and that's what that's a big part of what we've been 629 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,720 able to do is show music teachers at scale across the 630 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,560 United States. No, no, no, keep doing what 631 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:55,560 you're doing. That's fine. 632 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,800 But you need other tools in your tool belt. 633 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,280 And we'll happily supply them with them to you. 634 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,720 Yes, you can teach them. You know, she'd been coming 635 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,080 around the mountain. But, you know, we can also show 636 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,480 you how you can use that to teach a Beyoncé song. 637 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,440 It's no different, you know, it's the same language. 638 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,920 It's just putting it in faucets on a different syllable. 639 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,760 But it makes everything feel different to the learner. 640 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,120 Can someone who's not a music teacher or not a teacher sign up 641 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,840 to take your course? So that brings me to a really 642 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,719 interesting fork in the road that I've come to. 643 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,719 So I've been with music well now for the past 23 or 24 years as 644 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,520 the founder. And I announced recently that 645 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,560 come November, I'm going to be sort of taking my next step into 646 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,480 my next adventure. I'll be joining the Advisory 647 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,000 Board of the organization, which is where a lot of our well known 648 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,639 musician friends will be serving. 649 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,440 But I'm looking for something, again, a multiplier of my own 650 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,360 personal impact. So I like to joke, although of 651 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,720 course most times when I'm joking I'm kind of serious. 652 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:03,080 At the same time, I have dedicated my work life to 653 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:08,000 building what I like to call instruments of mass instruction. 654 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,840 I like that. Or implements of mass 655 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,440 instruction. So Music Will is an implement of 656 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,520 mass instruction. Together with the 6000 music 657 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,760 teachers that I've had the privilege of supporting and 658 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,360 working with, Music World Teachers have brought the 659 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,960 transformational gift of music education to nearly 2 million 660 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,400 students in all 50 states across the United States. 661 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,640 What an accomplishment. Wow. 662 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,720 That's 6000 people leaning in for the benefit of their kids 663 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:39,600 and it's an honor and a privilege to watch it. 664 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:45,040 So that's, that's a far cry from where I was in my first grade 665 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,560 classroom. So, you know, concentric circles 666 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,560 of impact. First it was me just teaching 667 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,400 all my kids, and then it was me teaching my my colleagues kids. 668 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:54,880 Then it was me teaching my colleagues. 669 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:55,840 Then it was me teaching my colleagues. 670 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,920 Then it was me starting an organization dedicated to 671 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,800 teaching music teachers. Then it was that same 672 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,920 organization partnering with colleges and universities. 673 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,040 And during that time we also started some programs overseas. 674 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:14,440 We have partnerships with orphanages in Haiti through CORE 675 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,520 and Music Hills International. That's a nonprofit that was set 676 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,680 up by Sarah Wasserman and also by Sean Penn. 677 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,960 We have programs in Venezuela through them as well. 678 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:31,360 We have programs in Guatemala. And today I am, as I think I'm, 679 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,840 you know, 57 years young or old, depending on the day of the 680 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,560 week. And when I think about the last 681 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,040 part of my career, which maybe I'm entering, maybe I got 682 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,440 another 20 years, who knows? I don't ever plan on, like, 683 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,600 retiring. I'm looking at a world where 684 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:53,000 people are looking inward and at least politically and dividing 685 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,640 themselves, you know, I'm, you know, using nationalist 686 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,880 rhetoric. And I believe there's one family 687 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,200 and it's the human family and there's nothing as important as 688 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,240 family. So I will be 1 of the things I 689 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:09,080 intend to do in the next next year or so is write a book about 690 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,760 our philosophy, about our approach, music as a second 691 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,280 language, which will be applicable in schools, outside 692 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,720 of schools, inside of correctional facilities, inside 693 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,920 of homeless shelters, inside of high schools, whatever. 694 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,520 Because again, the approach is very human centered. 695 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,400 So anywhere that humans are dwelling, I believe this can 696 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,640 provide some real value. And the other thing in terms of 697 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,040 that instruments of mass instruction, you know, I do, I 698 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,920 do. I could show you one, but or we 699 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,600 could wait till later. I brought one for show and tell. 700 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,960 Do you know? Well, we're in the middle here. 701 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:56,080 I'm going to ask where are are amazing, Chief Engineer Josh 702 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,800 says. You can try pulling it out. 703 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,200 So let's try pulling it out and let's see what can happen. 704 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,560 So when I said I designed. Because because I do want to say 705 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,360 everyone, we're sitting in Manhattan Center and which is a 706 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:13,560 musical icon in the world of New York City and if not the world. 707 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,440 So I'm sitting here with Dave Wish, who is the founder of 708 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,000 Music Will, and he has invented something that's quite 709 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,200 fascinating. So we're going to try pulling it 710 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,040 out and. Yeah. 711 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,160 And so let him. Showcase. 712 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,560 It so So a piece of background in this is that we donate 713 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,320 instruments, thousands of them every year to classrooms around 714 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,760 the country. And when I go in, I'll see 20 or 715 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,640 30 kids playing guitar at the same time or keyboard at the 716 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,800 same time. Kids love drums, but drums are 717 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,280 big and they are loud. So what I'll see in our 718 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,480 classrooms is 1 drum set and a line of kids who wish it was 719 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,160 their turn to play. And I started thinking, well, 720 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,200 what if there was a drum set that wasn't too big, wasn't too 721 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,960 loud, it wasn't too expensive. Then I could teach 20 or 30 kids 722 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:02,520 and our teachers could teach 20 or 30 kids to play drums at the 723 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,120 same time. But there was no such drum set. 724 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,080 So I went into my basement and I invented 1. 725 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,800 And that's what this thing is. I won't, I won't set it all up 726 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,280 for you guys, but you can. Everything that you see here 727 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,800 fits inside of this bucket. This lid comes up. 728 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,960 You know this, it's a little Inspector Gadgety or you know 729 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,240 this. So everything comes out and goes 730 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:29,080 in the bucket, but you have all of the parts of a drum set. 731 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,080 You've got a kick, you've got a, you know, a hi hat that opens 732 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,920 and closes. You've got a snare. 733 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,720 Actually, I forgot the snare. This is a Tom, but and you can 734 00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:42,280 Add all kinds of other bells and whistles and even it comes with 735 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,200 this throne. I don't know, I can see the 736 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,400 camera over there. Look, so even this throne fits 737 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,920 inside the bucket. I didn't invent it, but you can 738 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,080 twist it and close it and there you have it. 739 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,200 OK, getting the thumbs up that that was in frame. 740 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,320 So this thing I call it a zip kit. 741 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,640 Kids can carry it back and forth to school just like a. 742 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,920 Bag and you invented this. I, I patented it, I invented it, 743 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,640 and I the the patents all belong to the charity started. 744 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,440 So revenue that comes from this will benefit the nonprofit 745 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,960 profit and that will be a virtuous cycle because then we 746 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,600 will be able to purchase more and more. 747 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:20,400 Is this available today? This is going to be available 748 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,280 for sale in 31 countries around the world starting this July. 749 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,320 Your, your listeners may notice there are some talks about 750 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,680 tariffs going on. So we're trying to figure that 751 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,600 out right now, but for sure it will be available come July. 752 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,960 I genuinely couldn't believe the demo that you had done right 753 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,400 before we started to film. I mean, it sounded like a drum 754 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,640 kit. Well, what I found, so it's 755 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,480 funny, when I invented, I was like, oh, this is going to be 756 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:53,000 great for teaching kids at scale again, instruments of mass 757 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,680 instruction. What I did learn after building 758 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,680 a lot of them is that they're just really fun for kids of all 759 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,600 ages. And there's a lot of places 760 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,440 where you can't have a drum set, like a small apartment or on 761 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,440 your front porch or you go on a camping trip. 762 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:09,720 So since I've been inventing it and developing it, I've seen 763 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:12,800 professional drummers play it. I've seen little kids play it 764 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:14,400 and the reaction is always the same. 765 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,280 It's just fun. It's really fun to have a kid. 766 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,720 So when so we have people like James Hetfield and Bonnie Raitt 767 00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:23,200 and Smokey Robinson and all these other folks that are 768 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,280 filming themselves using it are going to help promote it. 769 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,960 So I'm very excited. This will probably be like it, 770 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,680 like I said, launching in July and revenue will go back to the 771 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,160 nonprofit. I also have other instruments 772 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,160 and things that I've invented and patented. 773 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:43,600 And so this again, this next chapter of my own life is how do 774 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:49,080 I help the nation of, you know, the family of nations, right? 775 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,160 Do what I think Pablo Casal's asked us to do. 776 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,120 Pablo Casal's was a one of the world's most famed cellist. 777 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:03,720 He lived through fascist wars in, in, in Europe, survived and 778 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,360 said that his quote is you must work. 779 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,000 We all must work to make the world worthy of its children. 780 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:14,960 And I would argue that right now we're not doing a good job, 781 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,760 generally speaking, as grown-ups, not only in this 782 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,880 country but elsewhere. And, you know, it's up to 783 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,640 responsible adults, which is funny to think of myself as such 784 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:30,400 a thing, but perhaps I am too. To, you know, walk the walk and 785 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,920 talk the talk. If we want our kids to live in a 786 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,680 harmonious world, then we've got to invest in harmony. 787 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,880 And if we want our kids to inherit a beautiful world from 788 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,880 us, we have to invest in beauty. And I really can't think of 789 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,480 anything that I have any expertise in that makes people 790 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,120 more beautiful than music and the arts and putting them in 791 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,280 touch with, In fact, that someone smarter than me once 792 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:58,000 said, you know, I'm not that concerned about the fact that 793 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,240 children can make music, can make beautiful music. 794 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,120 I'm moved by the fact that music makes children beautiful. 795 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,000 And I believe that's true. I believe that it's true that 796 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,520 when you just the way finger painting makes them beautiful 797 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:19,680 and crayons and sculpture and that that that that very human 798 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,720 desire, I think to create and share. 799 00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:24,600 And what kid hasn't come to their parent and been like, look 800 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,280 what I made for you. Look, you know, and it's you 801 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:29,720 know, it's it to me. It's so moving. 802 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:31,880 In fact, I'm just thinking of this for the first time, which, 803 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,600 you know, when you get to be our age, it's rare that you have 804 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,360 your first time. It's funny how often those first 805 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,680 creative outputs are gifts. I want you to have this, Mommy. 806 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,560 I made this for you. And we're, what do we do? 807 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,040 Oh, that's the greatest one of these I've ever seen. 808 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,280 You put it right up on the refrigerator. 809 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,000 And if you nurture that seed in a young person again, now, I 810 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,640 can't think of a better way of putting something of lasting 811 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,760 value into another person's life. 812 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,760 And it's just as easy to turn that switch off. 813 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,760 Like, what's that? A drawing of houses aren't pink, 814 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,280 dogs aren't orange. I mean, it's you know, now I'm 815 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:19,360 not saying that music programs are that reductive and so but 816 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,160 but sometimes they can be. Sometimes we give a wrong 817 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,920 message to a young person about whether what they're what they 818 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,200 want to do and their their way of expenses is appropriate or 819 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,560 not. And I like to point out that 820 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:38,120 those are lessons that, you know, you tell it what what you 821 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:39,800 tell a young person they will believe. 822 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,560 Well, it's interesting the point you just made because I'm going 823 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,520 way back when I don't remember which one of our kids was in 824 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,200 that music school, Music and art school. 825 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,040 And it was a snowy day and the second support teacher hadn't 826 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,960 gotten there, but we had gotten there because we were in easy 827 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,200 walking distance to the school. And I said, I'll help out. 828 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,320 And, and the teacher had put this big table that all the kids 829 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,280 sat around and everyone had a piece of paper and they had all 830 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,960 different paints in the middle. And one of the kids said to me, 831 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,640 can I please have more red? So I pick up the red and I'm 832 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,240 about to just put it on the page. 833 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,760 And the teacher just gently went like this in my arm and said, 834 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,120 did you ask her where she wants that red before you squirt it on 835 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,640 her painting? That's. 836 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,840 Smart. I have never forgotten that 837 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:32,160 lesson, you know, because a good teacher recognizes that in a 838 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,360 child, which is clearly something you're recognizing. 839 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,040 And another thing you talked about, you know, the, the innate 840 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:44,440 aspect of music. And I think of little kids and 841 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,120 little babies. I mean, you hand them a wooden 842 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,040 spoon and they're going to figure out some place to bang 843 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,560 that and be fascinated. And I have a a nephew, a younger 844 00:45:54,560 --> 00:46:01,480 nephew who has significant vision issues, but his ability 845 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,560 to what he hears. And I'll never forget one time 846 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,160 watching him when he was only about 18 months old. 847 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:15,080 He was at her home and there was a metal like clasp on a trunk. 848 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:22,320 And he stood there clasping that metal thing down until he got it 849 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,640 into some kind of rhythm. And he's 18 months, can't really 850 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,880 see, and there he is just getting a rhythm with this metal 851 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,880 lock. Isn't it something? 852 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,520 Isn't it something like we are all born with a with a drum that 853 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,760 keeps time for our whole lives? It's our heart. 854 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,560 Boom, boom, boom, boom. And that rhythm. 855 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,840 Boom, boom. That's the rhythm of the Blues. 856 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,800 Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. 857 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,240 And you, you can't really notate it. 858 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:52,680 You can try. I've talked to music theorists. 859 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,800 You can't really quite notate it, but you sure can feel it. 860 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,240 And again, it's a great example of how the music comes from us, 861 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:02,400 not to us. The instrument that I most play 862 00:47:02,720 --> 00:47:06,280 is the guitar. And you know, most you know, no 863 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,960 one really knows where did the first stringed instruments come 864 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,240 from, but it's a very solid bet that it came from bows and 865 00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:15,040 arrows. You and I are out hunting Boing, 866 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,840 boing. Hey, wait a minute, boing, 867 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,960 boing. Hey, the way that sounded to get 868 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,680 let pull your string Boing. Oh, wow, that sounds cool. 869 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,440 Then you start playing with the different lengths, just like 870 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,000 your your beloved one started playing with the click, Kitty 871 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,120 click, Kitty click. I like the way this sound is. 872 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,600 Well, another one of our supporters is a guy named Tom 873 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,560 Waits, wonderful musician, and he once said music is just doing 874 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,960 interesting things with the air. Interesting thought. 875 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,600 Interesting thought. It's just and, and what do we 876 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,000 share more readily than the air that we breathe that connects 877 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,640 us, that sustains us in any room? 878 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,600 You know, we're, we're, we're sharing this air. 879 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,280 Music is something that only travels in that air that goes 880 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,720 between us, right? I can only, you know, if we were 881 00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:07,400 in space, which would be cool, and we each had our oxygen masks 882 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,120 on and I was playing my guitar, there'd be no sound. 883 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,840 There'd be, you can't have music without air. 884 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:18,680 So, you know, like there's something profound for me about 885 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,000 are we going to share the air and show that we care about 886 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,560 every other human being? And are we going to live in a 887 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:28,760 world where every child is valued and every country is 888 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,720 valued, or are we going to pretend that some people are 889 00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:35,280 less human, some musics are less important? 890 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,560 I, I just won't, I can't play that game. 891 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,480 I don't believe in it. And I don't think it's healthy 892 00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:42,680 for children and other living things. 893 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:48,440 And I think music has an incredible potential to call us 894 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:53,600 back to our common humanity and to these things that are so 895 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,400 basic to who we are. You don't want this episode to 896 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,000 end, but that was one heck of a conclusion. 897 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,760 That was phenomenal, Dave. Well, that's music. 898 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,200 That's the power of music. It's like a magical force in the 899 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,440 universe, you know? I want to thank you so much for 900 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,720 joining me. I seriously, we could, I could 901 00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:15,360 talk to you for another two hours. 902 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,360 I'll come back, we'll do a. Part we are going to have to do 903 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,360 that and we have to do a full demo. 904 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,440 And as you go on to this next adventure and phase of your 905 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:29,520 life, I want to stay in touch. And everyone, I want to thank 906 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,720 you all for tuning into this podcast. 907 00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:35,520 I've been with Dave Wish. He's the founder of Music Will. 908 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,920 He's got all kinds of new adventures planned, including 909 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,680 that really cool drum kit that he showcased. 910 00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:43,640 And you should definitely check out more. 911 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,560 It's coming out in June or July, July, and you'll find all kinds 912 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,960 of links to learn more about what he's doing below this 913 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,440 podcast. And thank you so much for 914 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:55,760 joining me. Diane, it's been a real 915 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:56,720 pleasure. Thank you. 916 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,560 Thank you. This has been the Silver 917 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,720 Disobedience Perception Dynamics podcast. 918 00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:06,000 We're recording in Manhattan Center, which is the home of 919 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,120 many musical geniuses throughout the years, the many years that 920 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,040 it's been open. And I want to thank you all for 921 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,840 watching. Please hit subscribe and 922 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,240 definitely share this episode with your friends. 923 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,000 Thanks. Thanks, Dave. 924 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,760 Thank you, really appreciate it, so fun.