Hello everyone and welcome to the Silver Disbedience
Perception Dynamics podcast. I'm Diane Grissell and today
we're going to be talking about music.
Music is a subject, a language that everyone can relate to on
one level and or another, no matter where you are in the
world. And we're going to be talking
about that world component as well.
And think about it when you know, if you think back in
music, you can think of a song, any song.
You probably remember where you were when you first heard it,
who you were with, the feeling that it evoked.
And how many times do you hear something as simple as OK, and I
Can't Sing, but it brings you to something in your head where you
heard that possibly if you were as old as me, it was the high
school band that it was probably the only song they could play.
But if they played it all night long, everybody was happy.
So today we're going to be talking with someone who took a
wish and made it a reality. He put in the time, the effort,
the community to make something really big, which is music will.
So I want to welcome Dave Wish, who is the founder of Music
Will, and we're going to learn all about this today because
this is a great topic. Thank you, Diane.
Great to be here. OK, I have to start with the
elephant in the room question. Sure is wish your real last name
or is it a stage name? No, it's my real name, David
Wish, and often I have to explain.
No, it's just the way it sounds. WISH.
What a great name. Thank you.
So you had a wish one day. I did.
You started off as a elementary school, I believe, first grade
teacher. Were you a music teacher?
No, I was the most unlikely first grade teacher, maybe of
all first grade teachers, because I like to joke.
I'm an an expert in first grade because I taught it for 10
years, but I also took it for two years as a kid.
I was so good at it. They wanted me to show the other
kids what was what. No, but yeah, so I think a lot
of teachers that I had would have been like, wait, that guy's
growing up to be a school teacher?
Growing up is debatable, but I did become a school teacher and
I was a first grade school teacher in a bilingual school.
So all of my kids were Spanish speakers.
And my focus was very much on how do you work with a recently
or, you know, these these were recently arrived immigrants from
Mexico. How do you work with a young
child who hasn't yet learned to read in their primary language?
How do you help them acquire English and how do you help them
acquire literacy, how to read? Because reading is that's the
jam in first grade big time. And I was very proud that all of
my kids for my 10 years read at or above grade level each and
every year. And so my focus was really on
how do you make the learning of a second language really fun and
natural and easy the way it is when you learn your first
language, you're not even conscious that you're learning
it. And how do you make reading
something that's really exciting for any child?
So those were the two, those were my 2 areas, but the school
had no music program and and that's when I one day I was
like, wait a minute, I could teach these kids to play guitar.
And that was really the beginning of the last 27 years
of my life. You know what you're talking
about is probably more timely than ever.
I was speaking with a second grade teacher just a couple of
weeks ago and she said her class has, and she's in one of the
special and gifted New York City public schools teaching 2nd
grade. And she said her class has now
nine kids who speak only Spanish, three who speak
Russian, two who speak some version of Arabic, and then the
rest speak English. And she said it's really
becoming an incredible challenge to try to teach because you've
got all these different languages.
And I said, well, can you use Google Translate?
She goes, you'd have to be able to read to be able to use that.
And it never occurred to me. So you used music?
Well, I used music to, you know, it wasn't so connected to my
first. So it's interesting.
I started teaching my kids to play guitar and I did it by feel
because I didn't stick with any music program I ever had as a
kid. I was dyslexic.
I didn't read music. I didn't really relate to the
music that they were trying to teach me.
I mean, I my parents were playing Little Richard, Chuck
Berry, Stevie Wonder, and my music teacher was teaching me
old King once is lost, three Blind mice and etcetera.
So it I wasn't like, I was like, Oh, I'm cool.
And that's not, I just like I couldn't really find my way and,
and I didn't feel especially welcomed in my music classes
either because I just didn't fit, fit the mold.
So when I started teaching, I learned to play music outside of
school entirely. Friends in high school taught me
older sisters, older brothers, you know, and they taught me in
a, in a more informal, culturally forward way.
Oh, you want to play Neil Young? OK, here's put your fingers
here. Put your fingers there.
Learn a couple chords and the first time I strung together
anything that sounded like a song that I loved, I was like,
that's it. You know what's so funny?
What you said, because in your bio I saw somewhere Hal Leonard.
Oh, yeah. And that brought me back to the
what you just said a moment ago about playing contemporary music
because I could play a mean version of She'll Be Coming
Around the Mountain, which really dates me.
But that's what I could play when I taught myself guitar and
when I saw the Hell Leonard thing that triggered that
memory. But then that you focused on
contemporary music. Yeah.
Well, I, I had the same experience when I, when I
started teaching my kids to play, I went out and I tried to
buy method books like a good teacher, but I looked at it and
it was like, yeah, she'll be coming around the mountain.
I'm not doing that. I mean, I had never heard the
song before trying to figure out how to play it, so how do you
have a reference? Well, and and one of the things
I'd like to say to people is that there's a saying bread and
water can so easily be made tea and toast.
So take a song like coming around the mountain.
She'll be if one chord 1 chord 1 chord 1 chord 1 and then then
you go to the four chord back to one.
Yeah, but but also you could also do your insecure don't know
what for or or you're turning heads as you walk through the
door or whatever. Now you're teaching a kid same
chords, but that is you know, I forget what boy band that, but
that was a number one hit. You know, everyone else in the
world can see everyone else. You don't know you're beautiful.
I think One Direction, so that's, you know, so she'll be
coming around the mountain and what this One Direction song,
same musical DNA, but a much deeper heartfelt cultural
resonance and connection in music, I don't think.
And you feel cooler instantly. If you're struggling with
learning, all of a sudden you feel cool that you can play some
song that's on the radio. Absolutely.
And I also like to think music is not first and foremost an
academic subject. And music doesn't come from
school. Music is a human, is a byproduct
of humanity. And in fact, one of the most
beautiful things that humans produce is music.
And they do it all over the world, whether or not they're in
school or not. So music goes comes to school, I
believe, not from school, even whether it's being brought there
by the teacher who will bring it.
But every child comes. They're not empty vessels.
They come with the music that is culturally relevant to them and
their communities and their families.
And so, yeah, my, my thing was to teach kids music the way that
I wished music had been taught to me.
If someone had told me in 6th grade, hey, we're going to teach
you how to play guitar, I would have said heck yeah.
And if they said and and we're going to teach you how to play
Led Zeppelin, I would have said double heck yeah.
But but what happened to me was I wanted to play guitar, and
they didn't offer it. So I tried this other thing that
looked like a guitar was called a violin, you know?
And after a short while, I was like, you know, what am I going
to do with this? And I remember I went into
school and I asked my music teacher if he would show me.
I was like, oh, I know I could play that Beatles song.
So I went in and I told my teacher, can you please show me
how to play Eleanor Rigby on this thing?
Because that song I like. And I remember he said, no, you
get that at home. You know, we do serious music
here. And that's when I had realized
that I had a serious difference of opinion as to how education
in general could be student centered versus teachers.
You know, you've raised such an interesting point.
There was no guitar teaching in the school I went to either, and
I don't think I've ever seen that in or in.
Maybe now a little more thanks to the work you're doing, but
why was guitar? Was it related to Rock'n'roll?
Or why is guitar not considered? Well, I mean, I think that what
music? So it's beyond instruments.
What music is taught and what music is not taught in state
schools is reflective of what cultures are and are not valued
by state schools. So there was a.
So right now, if you look in public schools around the
country, there are tons of jazz bands.
And jazz is now wild, widely heralded as a American cultural
treasure, one of the few truly American art forms.
That's not how it started out. And in fact, people work really
hard to keep jazz out of our schools.
They originally called jazz band stage band so that they wouldn't
have to say they were teaching jazz to kids.
That's what progressive liberal educators, you know, did in
order to get jazz into the curriculum.
Now, that was true that it was the popular American Music in
the 40s and 50s and maybe a little in the 60s.
But since that time, other incredible American art forms,
rock'n'roll, hip hop, you know, all of pop music have also come.
And they've also been slow. It's been slow for the schools
to adopt them. And that's been my mission from
day one is to democratize music education and make it
reflective, as diverse and beautiful as the schoolchildren
that it serves. And those children listen to by
and large, music of their community, Rock, rap, disco,
pop, Top 40. And because I look at it as a
cultural treasure as opposed to a subject, it's like the
richness of music class actually comes from the students.
And it's up to us to draw that, to draw their music out as
opposed to drum any particular music in.
And furthermore, I might add, while I'm sitting on my soapbox
here, that this notion of there being a right kind of music to
learn or a right way to teach music or a right thing to focus
on. I take a page out of Sergey
Rachmaninoff said that a lifetime, you know, music is
enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for
music. So what does that mean?
OK, I'm the best jazz saxophonist in the world.
Great. Did you reach the end?
How about this? Can you play Indian tabla?
Can you play classical Chinese music?
No. OK, well, guess what?
That would take you another lifetime to get there.
Can you freestyle rap like, you know, Kendrick Lamar?
Oh, you can't. Well, then there's another
lifetime for you. And so this notion, So I guess
my, my central supposition is that to be human is to be
musical. It's almost a synonym.
And that means that if all humans are musical by their
nature, there is many different ways of being musical as there
are of being human. And the skillful teacher
empowers their student to be musical the way that is most
befitting them. And that that that translates to
instruments. Maybe guitar is not your thing.
Maybe you want to be a DJ, you want to be a rapper.
OK. Oh, you don't like being a DJ or
rapper? Well, maybe you want to be a
bass guitarist or you want to be a songwriter and trying to
squeeze children into artistic molds.
I think what happens is the people that don't fit often get
left out. And so there's no shortage of
people that I meet adults who, when you ask them if they play.
Yeah. Do you play in the.
Oh, well, when I was a kid, I took lessons on this or that.
It's always some variation. I wasn't very good.
I'll hear a lot or I didn't practice, but the punch line is
almost always the same. And now I wish I could play.
I, you know, it's like regret syndrome.
And I think that, you know, I don't blame, I never blame the
student. I'm a teacher.
Like I always blame, blames a heavy word.
But I would say that if you were to find the root of the problem,
it's the pedagogy, it's the approach, you, you.
It was a mismatch between a child's natural musicality or an
adult's and connecting to connecting that to them in the
way that made most sense for them in their learning style.
Well, the other thing too is you're you're pushing music
forward and you're obviously can see all the different ways kids
learn from it and community learn to communicate better from
it. Yet it's music and art are the
first things often cut from budgets.
So what do you what do you think about that?
Because it's not just whether you were were exposed to jazz
versus classical, your kids just aren't getting exposed in a lot
of situations at all, which is kind of where your your vision
came in. Well, you bring up a really good
point. So I've I have said the same
frequently. You know, that's the you know
that music and arts are first to be cut.
There isn't there is a deficit right now.
It's much smaller than most people realize.
So, for example, there's approximately, call it 55 to 60
million K through 12 students in the United States right now, and
approximately 3 million of them don't get music of any kind in
their schools. So that's a problem, but but
it's not as big a problem as it may be.
It looms in the popular imagination.
That's good to know. It is good to know and, and like
everything like, you know, sometimes the, the problem is
not as big as as we think and the solution is small as
sometimes is smaller than the problem itself.
And I think with music education, arts education, this
is a good example. So, so I'm going to give your,
your audience and you a very a 22nd lesson in music at in the
United States, when there's a music teacher, it's compulsory K
through 5, meaning you have to go.
So what do you have participation rates of 100%
Sounds great. Now what about middle schools
and high schools? Well, now participation becomes
elective. That means a child has to say, I
want to take music. And what happens?
The statistics show in the United States that schools that
do have music programs, often at the middle school level, 20% or
fewer of the students will opt in.
And then when high school comes, even fewer will opt in.
Why now? I I would say I in my my
observation is on the surface that makes no sense because
teenagers will listen to more music likely than they ever will
again in their lifetimes, and many of them will define and
remember their use and their identities with that same music
as they grow older. There are studies that show that
the music you listen to as a teenager is the most sticky,
tenacious music. And typically you'll continue to
listen to and like that music. You might expand, but that'll be
the core of who you are musically.
So why would people drop music just at that moment?
Because the musical pedagogy that is offered at school offers
no connective tissue to the musics that children are
carrying in their heart. So if I'm a kid and I'm
listening to nonstop rock'n'roll and I get into my music class
and my options are classical, jazz and children and folk
music, well, you know, I'm not that, you know it's.
Funny you say that because you remind me of our kids when they
were little, went to a music and art school and everything was
you danced, you play, everyone got some kind of instrument.
It was very interactive. And he goes into kindergarten
and he comes home and he's extremely upset.
Like really upset. I'm like, how could this kid be
upset? He loves music.
I know he had music today. And he says the music teacher's
terrible. She doesn't know how to teach
music. She knows nothing about music.
This is like a very well known music teacher the school had
recruited. I'm like, what's the matter?
And she goes, she told me I can't dance when I'm, when I'm
singing. You know the inside of a 5 year
old. You know that she's like, she
told me I had to hold the sheet music and stand still.
What kind of teacher would tell someone that Mom?
Right. Oh my gosh.
Well, it reminds me of of an apocryphal quote attributed to
John Lennon. So John Lennon, this is again
apocryphal in the in the land of fake news.
I don't like to, you know, I don't like to pressure, but it's
a great quote. The teacher said, go home and
write an essay about what you want to be when you grow up.
And, you know, and he says I want to be happy.
So the teacher says, I don't think you understood the
assignment. And John Lennon purportedly
said, I don't think you understand life because let
purpose of life is a life of purpose and enjoyment.
So to me, you know, and into your daughter's experience,
what? It's such a, you know, Yeah.
From the mouth of babes there, I think there are certain African
languages where to sing and to dance are literally the same
verb, right? And it there it's not as
differentiated. So if you're dancing and you're
singing, you use the same word and it's context clues to let
you know. So this notion, that's a very
Western Conservatory top down approach to music education,
that the music comes from paper and notes.
I would actually posit that music comes from the heart and
from the person and the notes and the dots and the paper.
That's an afterthought and not even necessarily a needed
afterthought. If you look at music throughout
history and in the human family, if you take Indian classical
music, which has traditions that go back thousands of years, in
Chinese classical music, same thing.
None of it was notated, none of it was written down so clearly.
Having the ability to write music can be wonderful, but it
doesn't. Music doesn't come from
notation. Music comes from people.
Now from that, let's go back. You're you're a first grade
teacher and I want to go back to those days.
So because you have this vision that you built out.
So you're a first grade teacher and you are getting kids to play
music somehow. What did that?
What did those early days of getting kids to play music look
like? And what did the the teachers in
the classroom next door think when you're doing that?
So my first I went to the music store, tried to buy a book to
show me how to teach kids to play guitar.
I'd never done it before. I begged and borrowed a bunch of
guitars from my friends, my musician friends who owed me
money or favors or both, and I couldn't find anything that was
meaningful. So the first day of my guitar
class for my first grade kids after school, I said, I want you
to write down the names of your favorite songs on one side of
this card and your names of your favorite artist.
And it was Selena and the Backstreet Boys and Carlos
Santana and that kind of stuff. And so I was like, great, that's
what we're going to do. And that's exactly what we did.
I taught them to play the music that they knew and loved.
And because I'm, you know, a fairly advanced player myself, I
could simplify things, though. Selena bitty bitty bumber mints
and B flat. Oh fool, that's a pain on the
guitar. So we'll just do it in a
whatever. And and what, what happened very
quickly is that my kids started interacting with music exactly
the same way I had, except I was 18 when I started and they were
six and seven. And which is to say?
What they they devoured a few chords and started apply.
Oh, if I can play Biddy Biddy Bum Bum, I can also play Angel
by Shaggy. And if I can play Angel by
Shaggy, I can also play One Love by Bob Marley.
And so the kids started playing frequently, in and out of class,
out on the lawn after school, the music that they knew and
loved. And all the other kids in the
school wanted to be in my guitar class.
Oh, I bet. And so.
And it's funny too when you talk about, you know, the B flat
versus the A you reminded me of. I'm a self-taught guitarist, but
I do credit Mr. Leora, Mr. Lorenzo, who ran the church folk
group, but let me join. But I do remember very vividly
him one day saying somebody's out of key.
I'm like, I don't know, it can't be me.
But it was much easier to play AC chord than an F.
Absolutely. So I kept trying to squeeze that
C in every time. Does this work here?
You know, so it's interesting that you talk about, you know,
accommodating the music to those hands that are trying to learn
because some chords are a lot harder when you're, you know.
Absolutely. Well, and So what what I would
do with things like that, I'd be like, OK, I have a group of 36
kids. You know, I'd be like Diane,
you're going to play a that's all you play, you know, so the
song goes AADEDD back to you a cool.
Well, this is what I'm talking about in terms of pedagogy, in
terms of approach. If I think that for you to be
musical, you must be able to easily go from A to D to E
without pausing, you may fall down at the first hurdle.
And if I think that if that defines success to me, then I
may also. That might be my value.
I guess Diane doesn't have it. Well, I refuse to think that
way. I can't think that way.
It didn't work that way. If you.
Just gave me goosebumps. I love to hear this.
Well, what a wonderful way to teach someone.
But I. Think that well, I'm glad that
it makes you feel good. This turns out music has that
magical power. It tends to make people feel
good. And I, what I have learned in my
study of the human family and how we make music is how few
people are comfortable in their own skin with their own music.
I've met some of the best known musicians in the world who when
you really talk to them, they'll tell you they, they get nervous
and they feel like impostors. Why?
Well, you know, you're, you're, excuse me, your first chair in
the New York orchestra as the, you know, principal violinist.
Why are you? Well, because I can't improvise.
Well, OK, I get that. But like, look at what you can
do. And yet you're not.
You don't feel. Well, one of my favorite
interviews was with Mick, with an interview with Mick Jagger.
And it was says they were doing their 50th year.
Maybe that was the steel wheels or something like that.
And they said to him, you know, this is old hat to you now.
Do you ever get nervous? You know, and he's like, did you
ever notice my first song? I never walk out holding the
microphone. And he said, I don't touch that
microphone. My hands are sweating.
I have no idea if the audience is going to still think we're
relevant. Goes, and I don't want a chance.
It slips out of my hand until I know the crowd's with me.
I thought, Oh my gosh, Mick Jagger says that.
Yeah, and the more that I talk with art, like, you know, I was
talking with the drummer. I'll reveal who he is in a
second. He was told by his middle school
he couldn't do the buzz roll on the Star Spangled Banner.
And so, you know, he tried and he tried.
And his drum teacher, the music teacher at the school said, hey,
DeVito, hang up the sticks. You'll never do anything with
the drums. That drummer is is Liberty
DeVito, who was Billy Joel for 30 years, one of the most
recorded artists in the world, one of the most recorded
drummers of all time. And he still carries the scars
and the weight of feeling judge. So to me, you take people on one
end of the and people like Mick Jagger and Billy Joel and The
Beatles, who are not classically trained and feel like they're
impostors, feel unworthy. And then you find people on the
other side, these incredibly classically trained people, and
they feel like impostors. And what I feel like is when I
say I want to democratize music education and just music in
general. Like you're all worthy, everyone
of you in the entire continuum. There's no wrong way to be human
other than deliberately harming other people.
But other than that, you'd be yourself.
And that's the beauty of what the arts bring.
They'll never be another Diane. They'll never be another person
will express their musicality exactly like yours, and the more
time you put in, the more joy you'll get from it.
And the more the more you're forced to conform to someone
else's expectations, the easier it is for you to feel like,
well, maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe I'm not worthy.
OK, so now back in the 90s, you're still in that first grade
classroom and you've got the teachers listening in.
How did you start to enroll others in this evolutionary
crazy new way you were trying to teach and bring music into kids
lives? Well, we started releasing CD's
of the kids original music. The kids started writing their
own music. Oh my gosh.
So we started recording the my classroom was the recording
studio. Teachers started asking if they
could be in my guitar classes as well.
So I opened more and more classes.
I would sell tapes and CD's of the kids original music and buy
more instruments. So then the second graders could
have a class or the 3rd or the 4th or the 5th or.
And and eventually those those CD's got played on the radio
where they were noticed by local musicians like Bonnie Raitt and
Carlos Santana and John Lee Hooker.
May he rest in peace and power. And all of them came by and all
of them supported this weird program, this weird first grade
school teacher. And I started to dawn on me that
I was on to something bigger than only my kids and my
classes. And so I, it got to the point
where I couldn't take on any more kids.
But I, I had a, a whole phalanx of teacher admirers who were
either studying alongside of the kids, which was great for me
because I had free teachers aides, you know, or who could
play themselves, but didn't have any kids, you know, didn't have
instrument seats. And I said, look, let me train
you. I will, I, let me show you my
approach, my pedagogy. So the thing that you said where
you got, you got, you said you've suddenly felt excited to
think that you'd be in a class with me where you would play the
A chord and you didn't have to go to the D chord right away.
Well, guess what? A lot of teachers felt the same
way. Like, wait a minute, I never
would have thought of that. And So what really I brought to
the table for my peers and what I think I continue to bring is a
unique pedagogy unlike any other pet.
Well, excuse me, like. Well, my one of our supporters
is this nice guy named James Hetfield, lead singer and
guitarist of Yeah. You're my favorites.
He sent me an e-mail one time and I loved the sign off, it
said. I'm unique just like everybody
else. I was like, no wonder I like
this guy. But but our, so our pedagogy is
unique like every other pedagogy and like every other pedagogy
has a lot in common with a little bit from this, a little
bit from that. But the way I've put it together
is unique. I call it music as a second
language comes from that classroom.
And so getting teachers involved very easy because they saw the
result. They they saw what was happening
for the kids and many of them experienced what it was like for
them. Their own musicality really
changed. They start to look at them
selves differently in their own musicianship.
And I started having suddenly I had more resources than I could
use because we were only at one school.
So it dawned on me like, wait a minute, there are other schools
where there's this problem where kids aren't getting music or if
they're getting music, they're getting it in a way that doesn't
connect to them. So I left teaching in 2002 to
found what would go what it was called Little Kids Rock at the
time. We changed our name a few years
back and since that time. And now it's music.
Will now it's music. Will we changed the name back in
2022. Little Kids Rock was a little
misleading because yes, we work with little kids and.
Those kids started to get bigger and they still wanted to rock
with Dave Wish. And all our teachers and yeah,
so we have programs in middle schools, elementary schools,
high schools, even at the college level.
We now have programs because, well, here I'll just say this,
Music will for 24 some years now has been doing the same thing we
have. We, I like to call them the four
CS. We recruit teachers and we
certify them. That's the first C.
We give them our training. And so they learn about our
pedagogy over a period of days and then they're trained.
Then we give them all of our curriculum, which is driven by
that pedagogy. That's free.
And then we give them classroom instruments.
That's the third C guitars, basses, keys, etcetera.
And then we put them together in community.
That's the 4th C. They are like a community of
practice. So for 24 years, we've been
doing that. And that has been the secret
sauce that it is a community effort of teachers who want to
see music education be as diverse and beautiful as the
full student body that they serve.
And they understand, especially music teachers understand that,
that dropping out, that opting out is a problem we cannot
accept. You can't tell me like in in a
district like Los Angeles, fewer than 10% of all high school kids
will take a music class It's crazy.
It's the heart of the music industry.
There's only one there. Yes, there are some.
Why? Do you think that is is it
they're not available or is it kids get embarrassed or is it
the impact of the Internet? What I think?
I think there are understandable and acceptable reasons like, you
know, so many hours in a day, I want to do sports, etcetera.
But when you can't wait, but you can't, that doesn't factor that
90% of kids who are like, Nope, not for me.
Well, to me, it's like it's, it's the cultural disconnect.
I, I'm listening to this kind of music.
I don't want to learn that kind of music.
And so about 10 years ago, I invented, this is one of my
other little creations, a new category of music education,
which I call modern band. Now it's a boring term.
I picked it because it's boring. And I'll again like a 32nd, you
know, edge history music lesson or music education history
lesson. Your listeners will probably
have heard of marching band in schools, and they'll be able to
pick your da, da, da da or orchestra or jazz band.
What they will not know, likely, is modern band.
They also won't know stage band because no one uses that term
anymore. Stage band is what they used to
call jazz band. Why did they?
Why didn't they just call it jazz band?
Because it was too culturally fraught, the idea that they
would take the popular American Music of the day and teach it to
American children. The actual music that was being
listened to actually being taught and valued in schools.
So again, progressive educators called it stage band just to
slip it in. So I was like, oh, that worked
once in the 60s. And we are not embracing the
cultural music of today. Rap, rock, pop, Top 40, Taylor
Swift, Beyoncé, all of that. Let's do it again.
And so I came up with this idea of modern band and districts
around the country have started writing it into their
curriculum. And we are now also partnering
with over a hundred colleges and universities across the United
States that have music education majors who are going to, you
know, people are going to go on to become music teachers.
And we're training them in in modern band approach in music as
a second language pedagogy before they get in the classroom
so that when they graduate, today's music teachers will be
ready to serve today's students by teaching them the music of
today, along with all of these other wonderful things like jazz
music and classical and et cetera.
But again, no one of those is going to fire on every piston
for every child. And we have to have music
education reflect the students it serves because music serves
children. Children don't serve music.
The educational system serves children.
Children don't serve. We don't have kids going to
school to impress us with their test scores.
We have kids going to school so that they can we can put
something of lasting value in their lives that will benefit
them for the rest of their lives.
And to me, it's always really bothered me that people miss out
on having music, not even because they don't have access
to a music teacher, but because it lacks relevance.
And they, you know, so they opt out.
And, and, and that's what that's a big part of what we've been
able to do is show music teachers at scale across the
United States. No, no, no, keep doing what
you're doing. That's fine.
But you need other tools in your tool belt.
And we'll happily supply them with them to you.
Yes, you can teach them. You know, she'd been coming
around the mountain. But, you know, we can also show
you how you can use that to teach a Beyoncé song.
It's no different, you know, it's the same language.
It's just putting it in faucets on a different syllable.
But it makes everything feel different to the learner.
Can someone who's not a music teacher or not a teacher sign up
to take your course? So that brings me to a really
interesting fork in the road that I've come to.
So I've been with music well now for the past 23 or 24 years as
the founder. And I announced recently that
come November, I'm going to be sort of taking my next step into
my next adventure. I'll be joining the Advisory
Board of the organization, which is where a lot of our well known
musician friends will be serving.
But I'm looking for something, again, a multiplier of my own
personal impact. So I like to joke, although of
course most times when I'm joking I'm kind of serious.
At the same time, I have dedicated my work life to
building what I like to call instruments of mass instruction.
I like that. Or implements of mass
instruction. So Music Will is an implement of
mass instruction. Together with the 6000 music
teachers that I've had the privilege of supporting and
working with, Music World Teachers have brought the
transformational gift of music education to nearly 2 million
students in all 50 states across the United States.
What an accomplishment. Wow.
That's 6000 people leaning in for the benefit of their kids
and it's an honor and a privilege to watch it.
So that's, that's a far cry from where I was in my first grade
classroom. So, you know, concentric circles
of impact. First it was me just teaching
all my kids, and then it was me teaching my my colleagues kids.
Then it was me teaching my colleagues.
Then it was me starting an organization dedicated to
teaching music teachers. Then it was that same
organization partnering with colleges and universities.
And during that time we also started some programs overseas.
We have partnerships with orphanages in Haiti through CORE
and Music Hills International. That's a nonprofit that was set
up by Sarah Wasserman and also by Sean Penn.
We have programs in Venezuela through them as well.
We have programs in Guatemala. And today I am, as I think I'm,
you know, 57 years young or old, depending on the day of the
week. And when I think about the last
part of my career, which maybe I'm entering, maybe I got
another 20 years, who knows? I don't ever plan on, like,
retiring. I'm looking at a world where
people are looking inward and at least politically and dividing
themselves, you know, I'm, you know, using nationalist
rhetoric. And I believe there's one family
and it's the human family and there's nothing as important as
family. So I will be 1 of the things I
intend to do in the next next year or so is write a book about
our philosophy, about our approach, music as a second
language, which will be applicable in schools, outside
of schools, inside of correctional facilities, inside
of homeless shelters, inside of high schools, whatever.
Because again, the approach is very human centered.
So anywhere that humans are dwelling, I believe this can
provide some real value. And the other thing in terms of
that instruments of mass instruction, you know, I do, I
do. I could show you one, but or we
could wait till later. I brought one for show and tell.
Do you know? Well, we're in the middle here.
I'm going to ask where are are amazing, Chief Engineer Josh
says. You can try pulling it out.
So let's try pulling it out and let's see what can happen.
So when I said I designed. Because because I do want to say
everyone, we're sitting in Manhattan Center and which is a
musical icon in the world of New York City and if not the world.
So I'm sitting here with Dave Wish, who is the founder of
Music Will, and he has invented something that's quite
fascinating. So we're going to try pulling it
out and. Yeah.
And so let him. Showcase.
It so So a piece of background in this is that we donate
instruments, thousands of them every year to classrooms around
the country. And when I go in, I'll see 20 or
30 kids playing guitar at the same time or keyboard at the
same time. Kids love drums, but drums are
big and they are loud. So what I'll see in our
classrooms is 1 drum set and a line of kids who wish it was
their turn to play. And I started thinking, well,
what if there was a drum set that wasn't too big, wasn't too
loud, it wasn't too expensive. Then I could teach 20 or 30 kids
and our teachers could teach 20 or 30 kids to play drums at the
same time. But there was no such drum set.
So I went into my basement and I invented 1.
And that's what this thing is. I won't, I won't set it all up
for you guys, but you can. Everything that you see here
fits inside of this bucket. This lid comes up.
You know this, it's a little Inspector Gadgety or you know
this. So everything comes out and goes
in the bucket, but you have all of the parts of a drum set.
You've got a kick, you've got a, you know, a hi hat that opens
and closes. You've got a snare.
Actually, I forgot the snare. This is a Tom, but and you can
Add all kinds of other bells and whistles and even it comes with
this throne. I don't know, I can see the
camera over there. Look, so even this throne fits
inside the bucket. I didn't invent it, but you can
twist it and close it and there you have it.
OK, getting the thumbs up that that was in frame.
So this thing I call it a zip kit.
Kids can carry it back and forth to school just like a.
Bag and you invented this. I, I patented it, I invented it,
and I the the patents all belong to the charity started.
So revenue that comes from this will benefit the nonprofit
profit and that will be a virtuous cycle because then we
will be able to purchase more and more.
Is this available today? This is going to be available
for sale in 31 countries around the world starting this July.
Your, your listeners may notice there are some talks about
tariffs going on. So we're trying to figure that
out right now, but for sure it will be available come July.
I genuinely couldn't believe the demo that you had done right
before we started to film. I mean, it sounded like a drum
kit. Well, what I found, so it's
funny, when I invented, I was like, oh, this is going to be
great for teaching kids at scale again, instruments of mass
instruction. What I did learn after building
a lot of them is that they're just really fun for kids of all
ages. And there's a lot of places
where you can't have a drum set, like a small apartment or on
your front porch or you go on a camping trip.
So since I've been inventing it and developing it, I've seen
professional drummers play it. I've seen little kids play it
and the reaction is always the same.
It's just fun. It's really fun to have a kid.
So when so we have people like James Hetfield and Bonnie Raitt
and Smokey Robinson and all these other folks that are
filming themselves using it are going to help promote it.
So I'm very excited. This will probably be like it,
like I said, launching in July and revenue will go back to the
nonprofit. I also have other instruments
and things that I've invented and patented.
And so this again, this next chapter of my own life is how do
I help the nation of, you know, the family of nations, right?
Do what I think Pablo Casal's asked us to do.
Pablo Casal's was a one of the world's most famed cellist.
He lived through fascist wars in, in, in Europe, survived and
said that his quote is you must work.
We all must work to make the world worthy of its children.
And I would argue that right now we're not doing a good job,
generally speaking, as grown-ups, not only in this
country but elsewhere. And, you know, it's up to
responsible adults, which is funny to think of myself as such
a thing, but perhaps I am too. To, you know, walk the walk and
talk the talk. If we want our kids to live in a
harmonious world, then we've got to invest in harmony.
And if we want our kids to inherit a beautiful world from
us, we have to invest in beauty. And I really can't think of
anything that I have any expertise in that makes people
more beautiful than music and the arts and putting them in
touch with, In fact, that someone smarter than me once
said, you know, I'm not that concerned about the fact that
children can make music, can make beautiful music.
I'm moved by the fact that music makes children beautiful.
And I believe that's true. I believe that it's true that
when you just the way finger painting makes them beautiful
and crayons and sculpture and that that that that very human
desire, I think to create and share.
And what kid hasn't come to their parent and been like, look
what I made for you. Look, you know, and it's you
know, it's it to me. It's so moving.
In fact, I'm just thinking of this for the first time, which,
you know, when you get to be our age, it's rare that you have
your first time. It's funny how often those first
creative outputs are gifts. I want you to have this, Mommy.
I made this for you. And we're, what do we do?
Oh, that's the greatest one of these I've ever seen.
You put it right up on the refrigerator.
And if you nurture that seed in a young person again, now, I
can't think of a better way of putting something of lasting
value into another person's life.
And it's just as easy to turn that switch off.
Like, what's that? A drawing of houses aren't pink,
dogs aren't orange. I mean, it's you know, now I'm
not saying that music programs are that reductive and so but
but sometimes they can be. Sometimes we give a wrong
message to a young person about whether what they're what they
want to do and their their way of expenses is appropriate or
not. And I like to point out that
those are lessons that, you know, you tell it what what you
tell a young person they will believe.
Well, it's interesting the point you just made because I'm going
way back when I don't remember which one of our kids was in
that music school, Music and art school.
And it was a snowy day and the second support teacher hadn't
gotten there, but we had gotten there because we were in easy
walking distance to the school. And I said, I'll help out.
And, and the teacher had put this big table that all the kids
sat around and everyone had a piece of paper and they had all
different paints in the middle. And one of the kids said to me,
can I please have more red? So I pick up the red and I'm
about to just put it on the page.
And the teacher just gently went like this in my arm and said,
did you ask her where she wants that red before you squirt it on
her painting? That's.
Smart. I have never forgotten that
lesson, you know, because a good teacher recognizes that in a
child, which is clearly something you're recognizing.
And another thing you talked about, you know, the, the innate
aspect of music. And I think of little kids and
little babies. I mean, you hand them a wooden
spoon and they're going to figure out some place to bang
that and be fascinated. And I have a a nephew, a younger
nephew who has significant vision issues, but his ability
to what he hears. And I'll never forget one time
watching him when he was only about 18 months old.
He was at her home and there was a metal like clasp on a trunk.
And he stood there clasping that metal thing down until he got it
into some kind of rhythm. And he's 18 months, can't really
see, and there he is just getting a rhythm with this metal
lock. Isn't it something?
Isn't it something like we are all born with a with a drum that
keeps time for our whole lives? It's our heart.
Boom, boom, boom, boom. And that rhythm.
Boom, boom. That's the rhythm of the Blues.
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
And you, you can't really notate it.
You can try. I've talked to music theorists.
You can't really quite notate it, but you sure can feel it.
And again, it's a great example of how the music comes from us,
not to us. The instrument that I most play
is the guitar. And you know, most you know, no
one really knows where did the first stringed instruments come
from, but it's a very solid bet that it came from bows and
arrows. You and I are out hunting Boing,
boing. Hey, wait a minute, boing,
boing. Hey, the way that sounded to get
let pull your string Boing. Oh, wow, that sounds cool.
Then you start playing with the different lengths, just like
your your beloved one started playing with the click, Kitty
click, Kitty click. I like the way this sound is.
Well, another one of our supporters is a guy named Tom
Waits, wonderful musician, and he once said music is just doing
interesting things with the air. Interesting thought.
It's just and, and what do we
share more readily than the air that we breathe that connects
us, that sustains us in any room?
You know, we're, we're, we're sharing this air.
Music is something that only travels in that air that goes
between us, right? I can only, you know, if we were
in space, which would be cool, and we each had our oxygen masks
on and I was playing my guitar, there'd be no sound.
There'd be, you can't have music without air.
So, you know, like there's something profound for me about
are we going to share the air and show that we care about
every other human being? And are we going to live in a
world where every child is valued and every country is
valued, or are we going to pretend that some people are
less human, some musics are less important?
I, I just won't, I can't play that game.
I don't believe in it. And I don't think it's healthy
for children and other living things.
And I think music has an incredible potential to call us
back to our common humanity and to these things that are so
basic to who we are. You don't want this episode to
end, but that was one heck of a conclusion.
That was phenomenal, Dave. Well, that's music.
That's the power of music. It's like a magical force in the
universe, you know? I want to thank you so much for
joining me. I seriously, we could, I could
talk to you for another two hours.
I'll come back, we'll do a. Part we are going to have to do
that and we have to do a full demo.
And as you go on to this next adventure and phase of your
life, I want to stay in touch. And everyone, I want to thank
you all for tuning into this podcast.
I've been with Dave Wish. He's the founder of Music Will.
He's got all kinds of new adventures planned, including
that really cool drum kit that he showcased.
And you should definitely check out more.
It's coming out in June or July, July, and you'll find all kinds
of links to learn more about what he's doing below this
podcast. And thank you so much for
joining me. Diane, it's been a real
pleasure. Thank you.
This has been the Silver
Disobedience Perception Dynamics podcast.
We're recording in Manhattan Center, which is the home of
many musical geniuses throughout the years, the many years that
it's been open. And I want to thank you all for
watching. Please hit subscribe and
definitely share this episode with your friends.
Thanks. Thanks, Dave.
Thank you, really appreciate it, so fun.