1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,240 Hi there, I'm Diane Grissell. I'm also known as Silver 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,600 Despedians to a lot of you. This is the Silver Despedians 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,800 Perception Dynamics podcast. And today we are recording in 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,400 iconic Manhattan Center. So this is a real honor to be 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,160 here. I have a great guest today and 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:23,160 you have probably read at least one thing he's written, if not 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,800 many or any of his regular columns that have appeared in 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,720 the New York Times, The New Yorker, Town and Country or any 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,960 of his books, of which there are several. 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:40,200 What I really like about my guest, who is Bob Morris, the 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:46,680 Bob Morris if you're looking first website is that he really 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,600 tackles and drills down on family relationships and 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,560 dynamics in such a thought provoking way. 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,960 I can't wait to just have a free form discussion with him for the 15 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,240 next bit. So TuneIn and get comfortable. 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,440 This is going to be really good unless you're on a treadmill 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,200 walk and enjoy it and enjoy this episode. 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:08,720 Bob, Thank you. Thank. 19 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:16,120 You, Diane. Bob, you really drill down on 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:21,920 people, dynamics, humans, human interaction in such a way that's 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,760 so fascinating to me and self reflective. 22 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,280 Where does this come from in you? 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,040 Self reflective and also self deprecating. 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:38,520 Yes, you know, writers who do well, especially in the 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,200 nonfiction realm, which is what I've done memoirs and I had a 26 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:43,760 first person column in the Times. 27 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,920 The main thing is honesty. People know it when they see it, 28 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,600 and often honesty means embarrassing revelations about 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,480 yourself. You know, one of the columns I 30 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,240 read that you wrote, which I wanted to share with everyone in 31 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,800 the world when I read it, was about getting pulled over for 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,440 drunk driving and how you started it. 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,520 You know your belligerence, your anger, your. 34 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:15,080 Yeah, how dare they. I was barely over the drinking 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:15,920 limit. Yes. 36 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,280 And it was it, you know, and you got to that self reflective 37 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,480 point in it. Yes, yeah. 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:30,160 And that it's unfortunate that people who Google me or look at 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,400 the Bob Morris will see that I was in jail for drunk driving in 40 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,000 San Diego. Well, you know, I think plenty 41 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,800 of us could have been, you know, but we didn't get caught. 42 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,640 And you know, but you reflected on it in such. 43 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,720 A. An eye opening way. 44 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,240 Yeah. And if there are writers out 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:52,240 there, there's a lesson in all of that, which is there's a 46 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,360 little arc to that. You know, it was in the New York 47 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,800 Times op-ed pages. And you know, there's there's a 48 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,960 story there of somebody pissed off. 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,040 How did these cops find me? They didn't get me at my car. 50 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,840 I probably would have had a case against them because they 51 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,680 accosted me and handcuffed me after I'd left the car, which I 52 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,800 don't think they could do. And I was like, how dare you, 53 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,440 you know, and what are you wasting your time? 54 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,520 And why is San Diego spending all this money? 55 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,520 You know, apparently there were helicopters following me for my 56 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:28,280 5 minute drive from the bar to my hotel and on very, you know, 57 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,200 empty streets. So it for all these reasons I 58 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,120 was like, Oh my God, this is a how dare they? 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,120 You know, I didn't quite say, do you know who I am? 60 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:46,000 But you know, when hours later, after finally getting thrown in 61 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,240 a cell, it started to fill up in the course of the night with all 62 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,280 these men, the situation was terrible. 63 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,080 I remember being mad about that. Like, I didn't even know how to 64 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,360 make a phone call because the instructions were unclear. 65 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,280 The toilet was overflowing. It was COVID time, and people 66 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,280 were not wearing masks properly. And I was still pissed off. 67 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,080 And then over the course of what, 16 hours being stuck with 68 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:22,680 these guys, I started to realize none of them had the money for 69 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,400 bail to get out. They, you know, they were call. 70 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,560 I, you know, the phone is right there in the cell with you. 71 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,200 And I heard them like they were calling their father and so 72 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:37,920 ashamed or they were calling their ex-girlfriend and trying 73 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,000 to work out, you know, and and also then you start to hear what 74 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,400 they had done to get thrown in jail. 75 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,840 You know, one guy got thrown in jail because he was he fell 76 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:52,920 asleep in the backyard of his former girlfriend who had a 77 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,520 restraining order against them. But another one was driving the 78 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,400 car where his friend got out of the car and robbed a bodega. 79 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:09,600 You know, another one had drugs and it went for like 16 hours. 80 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,600 They gave us a Bologna sandwich. I didn't know what was going to 81 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,280 happen. You lose complete control of 82 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:23,000 your authority, especially as a person that's always been able 83 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,520 to be in control. You know, in my socio economic 84 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,880 bracket, you don't you're not face what like for example, 85 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,240 immigrants are facing right now or even people depended on 86 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,360 Medicaid or people dependent on other healthcare, women 87 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,760 reproductive. So you know, I was just used to 88 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:45,760 being privileged and I started to hear all these people's 89 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:52,040 stories. And when finally I got my call 90 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:58,480 through, I called a friend right down the road in San Diego and 91 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,120 she bailed me out for 2500 bucks. 92 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,560 And the rest of the guys in my cell heard this. 93 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,760 And I'll never forget, like several of them said, your 94 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,880 friend bailed you out. Like they couldn't believe that 95 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,760 there was a guy among them who had that, who had access to that 96 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,400 money that I could pay her back for. 97 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:29,960 And in the course of that and finally getting out, it was very 98 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,920 sobering about the system and, and the fact that these this 99 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,280 jail cell was so disgusting and these people are treated so 100 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:39,440 badly. And they have, you know, a lot 101 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,840 of them didn't do terrible things. 102 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,760 But it's always almost 24 hours overnight in jail with a bunch 103 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,280 of other people in an overflowing toilet on top of it. 104 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,800 Unless you have a question on top of it. 105 00:06:53,800 --> 00:07:03,200 Then the system forced me into two courses, 2 online courses, 106 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:11,160 which were set up like military martial law situations. 107 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:12,680 You had to zoom at a certain time. 108 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,800 If you were one minute late, you didn't get credit for attending 109 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,760 and you had a $35 fee and you had to go on the phone for hours 110 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,520 to rearrange another zoo meeting. 111 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,960 And I remember I was late one day because it was the Jewish, 112 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,640 it was Yom Kippur. And I had been to like, say that 113 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,040 for my parents memorial, you know, and I was late and that I 114 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,840 was punished. You know, you could not. 115 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,640 It was a very, very military situation run by a former 116 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,280 addict, which, and this is apparently how these former 117 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,840 addicts are, once they get sober, they get really tough 118 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,760 with you. And I started to realize that 119 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,400 she had tremendous trouble, this woman who I hated, you know, who 120 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,480 was running this group for like God knows how many 20 weeks or 121 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,080 something. It was horrible. 122 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,000 If God forbid, my Wi-Fi was down, I'd miss a course. 123 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:14,160 It was so nerve wracking. And I started to realize she was 124 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:21,040 having really big problems with her teenager, and I think her 125 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:27,400 dog had died. And I realized that there was, 126 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:34,880 in all her toughness, a true love of helping and trying to 127 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:42,360 get people to really give up drinking or to really not drink 128 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,440 and drive again. Now a lot of these people, in a 129 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,960 similar way to the people in jail, were having to take the 130 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:56,120 bus to work because their their licenses had been revoked. 131 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:03,200 They had to stop work to attend this meeting, like in some 132 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,720 closet in their place of employment at time it was. 133 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:12,040 It was incredibly it was much harder on them than on me. 134 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,440 Now I'm curious, you, you talked about the loss of control. 135 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:24,400 How do you parallel the loss of control that you experience with 136 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:31,680 that, with your career? You know, yes, as a writer. 137 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,960 Yes, well, that's a hefty transition. 138 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,040 We like to get right into the meat of it here, Bob. 139 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:52,440 Well, ultimately with this driving thing, I came to realize 140 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,200 that I couldn't have control of the situation and in my opinion 141 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,760 didn't matter. I think that in a writing 142 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,520 career, you also, there are certain things that writers 143 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,440 can't control, and one of them is the culture and what it's 144 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,360 hungry for, what it wants, what will be received when you 145 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,720 publish a book. But if you go back from that, 146 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:26,360 you also then have to wonder what a publisher is looking for. 147 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,920 And I think we're all aware of the shift in interest in various 148 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,520 ways. Probably there's a certain 149 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:44,160 interest right now in the topic of data and probably tyranny, 150 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,480 you know, based on the situation we're in right now with the 151 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:55,320 government or I, you know, obviously the culture of around 152 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,520 DEI is up for a lot of conversation. 153 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:05,280 A lot of black authors are doing really interesting things that 154 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:06,800 I've been done before and publishers want them. 155 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:14,520 OK, what they might not be looking for, unless you're 156 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:21,040 brilliant and David Sedaris or Sebastian younger or, you know, 157 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:28,120 in a pop level, James Patterson, what they're probably not going 158 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,040 to look for right now is a older white man. 159 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,640 I just agree with you, you know, I unless you're brilliant, I. 160 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:42,080 I, I'm going to tell you why I disagree with you because I, I 161 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,200 have to, I have to put a time out on that one, not not time 162 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,960 out with the cameras. Why I, I think, I think society 163 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,320 is always shifting. I think the extremes in life and 164 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,560 form the middle. So you know, there's always 165 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,240 these extremes, but the pendulum always comes back into this 166 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,560 middle area. And like 2 of like one of your 167 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:07,080 books was assisted loving and, and these are some, you know, 2 168 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,720 year older books, but they really spoke to me. 169 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,680 And the other one was last words with your parents. 170 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:20,960 And they probably really hit me because my mother was remarried 171 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:27,000 twice after her 50 year marriage with my father and her her 172 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,520 second husband died within three months after their honeymoon. 173 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:33,160 And it would devastated her, devastated her. 174 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,280 She was the only person my mother was ever with besides my 175 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,720 father. And then she met someone else on 176 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,160 Valentine's Day. They dated for a year and they 177 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,960 got married and were married for 14 years before she died. 178 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,560 But the last two years, three years before she died, had a lot 179 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:51,400 of very intense conversations with her, more than I had ever 180 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,640 had during my life. And when I was reading these 181 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,680 books, and I think about these books, and I think we have an 182 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:02,240 aging population. Now, I know sometimes you don't 183 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,560 want to rewrite what you've written, but you had such 184 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:10,080 insights. And we have an aging population. 185 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,680 We're getting older. We have parents getting older. 186 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:19,120 And I think about the legacy lessons that you draw upon and 187 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,880 do it so well. I'd want to know more about what 188 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,440 you can pull out of anyone. Well listen at the risk of 189 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,000 undermining your lovely response. 190 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,720 Don't you dare. But I'm, you know, I'm going to 191 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,960 just because I wanted, I like, I like the opportunity to be 192 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,440 honest about things. Yeah. 193 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:47,920 So that first book, which was about my, it's called assisted 194 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,720 loving True Tales of Double Dating with my dad is a good 195 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,280 premise. It's, you know, basically my dad 196 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,640 was also married 50 years. He wanted to be in love. 197 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,680 He turns to me, maybe because I know how to dress, you know, 198 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:09,360 maybe because I was the single gay son, not the other son who 199 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,720 was married with two children running a big business. 200 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:17,920 He, he, he knew I was not readily available, but that he 201 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,200 could, he could nudge me into getting involved, let's put it 202 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,800 that way. And he wanted help on dating. 203 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,280 So, I mean, originally I called that book Pimping for my Dad 204 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:36,200 because I was like trying to find women for him partly, and 205 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:42,520 this is the unacceptable part of it, I didn't want him with just 206 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,520 anybody. I wanted somebody acceptable to 207 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,240 my taste level. Right, I think. 208 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,800 And he was a sweet guy who was not a snob. 209 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,320 He was an educated man, a lawyer and a judge. 210 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,760 But he was a slob. He was terrible table matters, 211 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,120 but a wonderful guy. But he could have dragged 212 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,720 anything into our family. He could have, you know, he 213 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,360 wasn't so picky. So I became the Screener. 214 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,280 I even tried to procure women for him if I heard somebody had 215 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:24,720 a single mom from a nice family. We all kind of like a little 216 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,680 dating help, you know, that person who knows us well enough 217 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,840 that's going to go out and find that mate, of course. 218 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,960 It's easier. Simultaneously, I was going to 219 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:37,760 say I was single myself and sort of almost resigned. 220 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,240 I was cynical. It wasn't the time of of apps 221 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,720 yet, but it was a little bit of that in the culture. 222 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:54,240 It's just I had talked myself into realizing that a life alone 223 00:15:54,240 --> 00:16:00,040 was not a crime and doable with lots of friends and lots of a 224 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:05,040 big career. And but in the course of seeing 225 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:10,760 how much he wanted love and how he threw himself into it, I fell 226 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,240 in love myself. So it's sort of a double. 227 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,520 There's a whole, it's a double love story. 228 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,400 And, you know, I ended up marrying and he ended up with 229 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,160 somebody. And of course, it was very 230 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,760 attractive to all the networks. All wanted meetings. 231 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:31,160 And you know, Oh my God, it's like all kinds of people, major 232 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:37,480 people made adaptations that for pilots and it never got made. 233 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,200 When the book came out, I was on fresh air for an hour twice with 234 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,360 Terry Gross on the radio. It got all kinds of great 235 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,520 reviews and everything. And this is back to your topic 236 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,400 of control, Diane. It didn't sell this book that a 237 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,400 lot of people still remember and had. 238 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:06,160 I was so lucky to have all the attention, all the media, all 239 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,680 the interest from Hollywood. It didn't go anywhere and the 240 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,280 book did not earn back my advance. 241 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,480 I think it needs a relaunch. And, you know, it was very, I 242 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,760 suffered at that, you know, and you keep trying. 243 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:29,840 And I thought to myself, well, it just didn't catch the wind. 244 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,800 It didn't catch the wind that would sail it into financial 245 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,920 success. Now you can say what you want 246 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:46,200 about that, but as I'm older now, I think I understand it 247 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,960 better. I'll tell you another story 248 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,680 about control. Around the same time I wrote 249 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,720 that book, I was asked to ghostwrite the book for this 250 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,600 beautiful actress, Diahann Carroll, who was the first black 251 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:05,880 actress to have a sitcom on NBC. She was a Broadway * Richard 252 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,600 Rodgers wrote a musical for her called No Strings. 253 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,880 She was the black woman on Dynasty, the black bitch, 254 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,120 Dominique Deveraux on Dynasty. She was a star and and and 255 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:18,520 revered. You know, her friends were 256 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,160 people like Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier and Miles Davis 257 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:27,000 and and she lived a superstar life and was beautiful. 258 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,040 When I was working on this book with her, it came out it won the 259 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,920 NAACP Image Award. It hit the bestseller list for a 260 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,840 week or two. It didn't do gangbusters. 261 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,920 And when it came time for a year later to come out in paperback, 262 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,160 we were doing an interview for TV or something. 263 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,200 And I said, you know, Diane, what you do is you, you know, 264 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:59,200 you hire a private publicist and you set up a whole nother tour 265 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,680 about this book. And she says to me now, Bob, you 266 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,000 have to know when the public has spoken. 267 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:13,320 And I sort of thought about that on Election Day this year. 268 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:25,960 I sort of had to understand that what the people want is what 269 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,480 they want, and you can't necessarily force them or make 270 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,880 them. Now, if that's a terrible, 271 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,120 terrible bit of advice to a young person who's got a book 272 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:40,680 and should do everything that he or she can to get it out there, 273 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,800 set up every event, do everything you can, but to me, 274 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:55,040 control and the the ease of just recognizing no matter what I do 275 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,840 right now, is this an uplifting conversation? 276 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,640 No, but. It does bring me to something 277 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:12,720 that I have been thinking about lately, which is the art and the 278 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:21,920 joy of giving up. Like knowing when you can stop 279 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,240 being the bird flying against the glass and give yourself a 280 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,720 break. That's an intriguing, deep and 281 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:39,520 profound statement because giving up and letting go are 282 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,760 very different things that, to me, often get confused. 283 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:44,040 Tell me more. I didn't. 284 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,280 I don't know what you mean. When I think of giving up, I 285 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:53,360 think of I'm done, I'm quitting, I'm never doing this again. 286 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,720 When I think of letting go, to me it's a rewrite of how I think 287 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:05,360 using writing analogy. I'm saying to myself, I am going 288 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:09,800 to do this for me. I know there are other critics. 289 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,240 I'm going to make sure I'm finding joy in what I'm doing, 290 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,880 that I'm having fun with it, that maybe it's a whole new 291 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:25,200 topic that interests me. And I'm going to explore that 292 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,320 without necessarily thinking of the end consequence. 293 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,960 Because sometimes when you start something, if you're just 294 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,600 focusing on how much you're into it, the thing, it's like the 295 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,920 pieces of the puzzle start to fall together. 296 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,280 Like earlier we were talking and you said, you know, you, we were 297 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,000 talking about singing and, and I want to get into this. 298 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,440 You mentioned you had a brother who had a stroke that couldn't 299 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,760 speak, but singing changed his life again. 300 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,960 I think that's a very moving story. 301 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,960 I want to know more. I know people who have had 302 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,680 strokes. I would love to figure out a way 303 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,680 to get through to them. We have more people that are our 304 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,480 age in this country right now than any other age, you know, 305 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,840 are aging up. We're so and strokes are 306 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,720 becoming more prevalent. And when you see someone have a 307 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,520 stroke, it's it's debilitating. So I would think it's not giving 308 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,000 up, it's letting go of the perceived notions that other 309 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,560 people are going to have, letting go of the expectation 310 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,600 because. Expectation it and. 311 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,040 We, you know, we do stuff and we have so many expectations of 312 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,480 what are the response going to be, what's the result going to 313 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,520 be and there that's a lot of misery often in that. 314 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,120 OK, let's talk about that for a SEC. 315 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,760 There was a book called On Giving Up that came out last 316 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,800 year by the psychologist philosopher Adam Phillips, an 317 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,680 Englishman, quite a popular author. 318 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:03,840 It was a small book and it was rather academic for me, but at 319 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:13,560 the time I was going through a lot of discomfort, changing what 320 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,560 my goals were. One of the things that stood out 321 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:26,080 from the book On Giving Up was that he talked a little bit 322 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,720 about on giving up bad things like cigarettes or booze or 323 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,720 compulsive gambling, which was not something I was interested 324 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,200 in. But he talked about that in 325 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:45,800 context of giving up things that were just making you 326 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,600 disappointing you or making you anxious or unhappy. 327 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:56,160 And he thought that the public might think of that as not 328 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,760 failing as much as transitioning. 329 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,320 And I like that idea. Now, the contrary of that would 330 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,000 be what the great writer Samuel Beckett said. 331 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,400 And I think this might have been addressed also to writers, which 332 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:18,760 is fail once, no bother, fail again, fail better. 333 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,080 That's a good one. I love it. 334 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,480 Can you? However, can you fail once? 335 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,800 No bother, fail again, Fail better now? 336 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,000 This is not where I'm at anymore. 337 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,600 I'm not interested in failing at all anymore. 338 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:45,520 And that is probably privilege of being 67 and being 339 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,520 comfortable enough financially that I don't have to get a job, 340 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:58,840 you know, at Walmart. But my story about giving up 341 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:04,360 sort of does has to do with singing and my brother and my 342 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,720 marriage. And the reason I've been 343 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:14,520 thinking about it is all when COVID started, I had a 344 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:20,720 particularly dramatic time. My brother who had had a stroke, 345 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:30,040 my Big Brother, my successful, very paternal, fraternal, bossy 346 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,680 Big Brother who loved me. I was his only brother. 347 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,400 I had a stroke, and it took away his ability to speak. 348 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,720 And while his wife and his son were pushing him in therapy and 349 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,400 physical therapy, it just wasn't coming back. 350 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,560 It was not coming back. And I could see it and I knew 351 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,160 it. And he was miserable. 352 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,720 Being shuttled, you know, to this therapy and that and the 353 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,040 speech and how frustrating after a year and it's not coming back, 354 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,920 you know, for a man who still had complete control of his 355 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,800 cognition, right? I mean, I could read to him from 356 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,880 the New York Times and he, we'd laugh at stuff going on, you 357 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,240 know, So he just sort of gave up eventually. 358 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:17,880 And what I realized was even though he couldn't speak at all, 359 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,280 he could sing. And that was in our family. 360 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,560 Since we were babies, we had a mother who sang to us. 361 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,280 You know, we still remember the Yiddish lullaby she sang. 362 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,560 Our father loved to harmonize. We would have, Passover stated. 363 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,320 We would sing through the whole thing. 364 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,520 I did little shows in the living room. 365 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,960 We sang in the car at the top of our lungs. 366 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,960 We sang in the backyard. Music was this universal 367 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:53,720 consciousness for us. And when my brother gave up on 368 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,760 the speech and his wife and son, I think sort of backed off, I 369 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,560 came in and we sang and he fortunately had a piano. 370 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,960 I have a ukulele. It's all we did. 371 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,680 And you might think that somebody who had a massive 372 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,600 stroke, who was a paraplegic in a wheelchair, but who still 373 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,680 could think, would give up. But in his case, no, you know, 374 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,280 he was right at home exactly where he was. 375 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:28,800 But it was, I think taking the expectation, like you said, of 376 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,280 getting speech back and getting back on his feet and getting out 377 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,520 of a wheelchair and taking that away and giving up on it 378 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,200 actually did give him a nice few years at the end. 379 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:44,600 Do you think it's like arguing semantics? 380 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,560 If I say, is it giving up or is it accepting? 381 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,680 Because I love the Serenity Prayer and whenever somebody's 382 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,280 having trouble in anything, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous made 383 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,080 a famous. But I just think it's such a 384 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,560 good prayer for everybody. Accepting what you can't 385 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,880 control, right? Yeah. 386 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,080 You know, because when you accept something, new 387 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,480 possibilities just to me seem to appear. 388 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,120 Yeah. Yes, that's that's you know, 389 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:12,920 'cause. You stop pushing the boulder 390 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,160 uphill. I can't push the boulder uphill. 391 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,240 You got it If I stop. So yeah, expand on that. 392 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,720 Well, I mean, I was going to say the boulder uphill situation is 393 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,080 and you know, again, like this is the opposite of a self 394 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,320 promotional video that I'm going to look like some hotshot author 395 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,480 with a million balls in the air and this project or that. 396 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,960 I mean, the truth is I started to think of all the plays I had 397 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,400 written that that had runs off Broadway or in regional 398 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,360 theaters, but they never got further. 399 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,320 And that's a boulder. And this musical that I wrote 400 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,080 and this cabaret show that I wrote with a boulder right now, 401 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,160 I just finished writing a one man show for the actor George 402 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,520 Hamilton. And it was a fantastic process 403 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,160 and he's got an amazing life. But I don't really think now 404 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,760 that we're done with it, he's 85. 405 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,080 I don't know that he's going to want to do a one man show. 406 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,040 So talking him and said that's another boulder. 407 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,120 All these boulders I'm looking at now at the bottom of a Canyon 408 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,840 and maybe flowers are starting to grow on them and birds are 409 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,400 nesting on them. But there's like a whole so many 410 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,360 things I wanted to do. You know, recently I was fooling 411 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,600 around with a producer because I wanted to talk about, I wanted 412 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,600 to do a cheeky, well, a podcast, but starting as an Instagram on 413 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,400 pills. So I did this thing called pill 414 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,160 talk, you know, and I was having such a good time with it. 415 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,360 But, you know, because I think people have shame around their 416 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,360 pharmaceuticals and, you know, meds. 417 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,680 Like if I did a podcast, it would be called Pill Talk and I 418 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,480 would invite people on and I'd say, what meds are you on? 419 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,960 And then our conversation would go like this. 420 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,480 So anyway, that was another boulder. 421 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,280 I mean, it's just like console is constantly doing projects, 422 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,880 right? With the goal, not creative 423 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,880 satisfaction as much as taking my talents and my humor and 424 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,880 trying to get something out in the world the way you've gotten 425 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,960 this out in the world, for example. 426 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,360 So anyway, all the boulders, pushing the boulders up the 427 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:13,320 hill, The biggest boulder that I was pushing up a hill for many 428 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,480 years was my marriage. I was married to a fantastic 429 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:26,360 guy, very literary, very funny, incredibly supportive, who 430 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,240 really helped me like write, get my books, get myself together as 431 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,360 an author, but had serious issues. 432 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:43,760 And when it became clear that he wasn't loving me anymore and no 433 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,320 matter what I did, it wasn't going to change, of course, I 434 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:55,360 suffered because like at the age of 60, you know, one I didn't, I 435 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,960 didn't want to be single again. I didn't want that. 436 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,600 I didn't like the idea of giving up our shared country house, the 437 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,720 dog that we shared. There was so much I didn't want 438 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,920 to give up and I held on to it. But all signs were indicating 439 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,680 that, you know, he'd lost that love and feeling, you know, you 440 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:22,840 know, and when finally push came to shove and something kind of 441 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,040 threatening was happening, that made me move out. 442 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,200 And this was like, I think the day after COVID was declared in 443 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,000 New York State. You know, I'm a lucky guy. 444 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,560 I have people who like me. And so I had a couch to stay on 445 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,880 on Long Island in this town where I spent a lot of time. 446 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,000 And then another, somebody else gave me their house and and then 447 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,920 I found a really nice place to live. 448 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:56,800 And as the weeks went on, I realized that giving up on this 449 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:04,040 was bringing out all the love and all the good feelings I had 450 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:10,160 accumulated through friendship and good relationships, right? 451 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,480 And I thought, oh, my God, I'm not a terrible person. 452 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,400 A lot of people enjoy what I have to offer. 453 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,200 And I had to release myself and give up on marriage. 454 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:29,840 Now, that's a very common story. I think in my particular case, I 455 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,680 moved into this little cottage in the dark of, like, you know, 456 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,680 March. It was very quiet area. 457 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:44,600 It was very cold that that year 2020, but there was a little 458 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,360 instead of a kitchen table, there was a bar in this little 459 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,920 cottage where you would eat stools and a bar. 460 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:56,480 And I looked at it and I thought, piano, I want a piano 461 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,720 in this dark little cottage in the middle of the winter. 462 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:07,400 I want to bring back into my life what gave me such joy as a 463 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,240 child and as a little boy, playing the piano for my parents 464 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,080 and doing shows with my girl cousins in the living room for 465 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,960 holidays and singing and learning new songs. 466 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:27,680 And I remember looking and looking to find a piano small 467 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,120 enough that wasn't going to be a disaster when I went to 468 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,960 Connecticut to buy it, you know, and find out it was a waste of 469 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:39,760 money, time. And I was walking up our country 470 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,280 lane and this young friend of mine is biking pass and he stops 471 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,600 and he goes, hey, Bob, do you need a piano? 472 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,800 Because I thought of you. And I know that you wanted one 473 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,080 in the house you lived in with your husband, but I knew there 474 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,680 wasn't room. I have it in storage in 475 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,720 Patchogue. Come take a look. 476 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:07,640 And it's and it was small and of all things, this piano fit under 477 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,360 my bar instantly. And almost the moment that 478 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:18,480 happened, we figured out how to sing with all the I very 479 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,440 talented neighbors. And they were all of course, had 480 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,719 nothing to do. And we had porches and heat 481 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,880 lamps and we'd sing songs. Sometimes I would, oh, and I 482 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,639 would zoom on the piano with my brother, who was in a nursing 483 00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,800 home, and we would sing. I mean, I have recordings of him 484 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,120 singing You Are My Sunshine with me. 485 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,239 And I formed a band, something I always wanted to do my whole 486 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,840 life, but I knew I was never good enough to really do that, 487 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,760 especially in a city like New York. 488 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,960 Well, we did it, you know, he rehearsed. 489 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,400 I, I don't know if we opened all the window. 490 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,800 I mean, singing is a very dangerous thing to do during 491 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,320 COVID. It's a, it's a super spreader, 492 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,320 but we did it. Nobody got sick. 493 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,440 And because I had given up on this marriage where first of 494 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,840 all, I couldn't even have a piano in that little the house I 495 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:13,760 lived in with my husband. But B, the time, the need to 496 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,640 express the love that maybe can go into a relationship was going 497 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,600 into this relationship with music and people that wanted to 498 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,000 sing. And so within a year, one of my 499 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,600 dreams, you know, just to be able to choose the songs for a 500 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,720 band to sing and write the harmonies and rehearse enough 501 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,840 and then have a very, very receptive audience happened, and 502 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:44,120 it's still happening now, more recently, you know, this topic 503 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,640 of singing, which interested me tremendously because of my 504 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,920 brother's story and how we sang right to the end, I mean. 505 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,280 Which is just remarkable. Is there a medical like research 506 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,280 that's singing and overcome? Lots of things. 507 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,640 Oh, but you can't speak, but you could sing. 508 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:01,920 Yeah. I mean, that's just. 509 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,240 Remarkable. You have a science background, 510 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:04,960 I'll tell you. I'll tell you about it a little 511 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,480 bit. And I don't think it's news, but 512 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,040 some interesting things about how people whose left side are 513 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:21,240 affected, which effects language and I think other area areas 514 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:25,320 too. But when you sing. 515 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,640 You. Are rhythmically throwing 516 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:35,080 yourself into something that overrides the issue of words, 517 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,240 like a single word and its meaning. 518 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,480 So that's one thing that happens, another thing that 519 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,760 happens and. Are there any books on that? 520 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,760 Yeah, there are, there's, there's, there's work out there. 521 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,080 I was not, I was not on to anything new in thinking about 522 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,120 wanting to write about why we sing. 523 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,520 Another thing that happens, of course, as you've read, is that 524 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,520 Alzheimer's patients and dementia people, what singing 525 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:11,240 does for them is it triggers memory because they associate 526 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:17,440 this song, what a wonderful world with a time when they may 527 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,080 have been in college or something. 528 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:24,720 And, and so it, it releases a different, it releases them from 529 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,280 the concerns of the present and it throws them back in the past, 530 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,920 which is very helpful, you know, for people. 531 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,720 And then of course, with their kids who are all freaked out 532 00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:42,520 because their parents have lost their mind across the board. 533 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,040 If they sing to them, it will bring them into the present. 534 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,640 I thought that with my brother, singing brought him into the 535 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,120 moment, into the present. And not only that, but in his 536 00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:01,120 case, the guy was such an opinionated, powerful man when 537 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:08,360 he was well. And I think that this let let us 538 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,760 know he wanted us to know he was still there. 539 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,040 And that's how he did it. And that's how we did it. 540 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,400 And there was nothing else that he got a kick out of as much as 541 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,360 that. I mean, he had, you know, we bag 542 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,680 on pots and pans and, you know, and then and then the other 543 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,600 thing about it is that it made me and this was the case with my 544 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,480 dad in my second book when he was unwell and he really needed 545 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,200 a lot of entertainment. And it was the perfect job for 546 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,720 me, for both my brother and my dad is to be the entertainment, 547 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:48,400 to be the transgressive, funny, play songs by ear, sit at the 548 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,040 piano at the assisted living place and, you know, make a fool 549 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:53,960 of myself. Oh, there people were looking on 550 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,960 and my dad was singing at the top of his lungs. 551 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,440 And so and So what I, what I always advise when you're in a 552 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:09,760 situation that is overpowering and, and and frustrating with a 553 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,600 loved one who's unwell and is probably not going to get 554 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:19,360 better, is to figure out how the best time you can in their 555 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,920 presence because that will pay off. 556 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:29,480 So for instance, when my ex who loves social media was going 557 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,320 through this with his 95 year old mom, I suggested that he 558 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,000 like bring his iPad and introduce her to the world of 559 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,280 Facebook and Facebook messaging and get her granddaughters who 560 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,840 she loved onto the iPad on Facebook and talk. 561 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,440 And like, you know, it was like all of a sudden she was thrown 562 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,880 into the world of the future, you know, that she didn't know. 563 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,280 And he loved it because he was sort of being the DJ and he was, 564 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,160 you know, and I loved seeing that and he was very grateful 565 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,960 for that. And and I think talking about 566 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:12,240 all of these things, taking care of people who really need you 567 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:18,240 and figuring out a way to find your muse again without 568 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:22,640 expectation does come when you get to the point where you give 569 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,880 up. And it's not so sad. 570 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,360 I have so many friends that say, oh, Bob, you're such a talented 571 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,000 writer. You know, you shouldn't give up. 572 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,400 And, you know, you need to do another book and all. 573 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,520 Well, you know, I tried to do a book on singing. 574 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:43,520 I have a very good agent and he couldn't sell it to a publisher. 575 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,920 The numbers on my books weren't so good, right. 576 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:54,640 And I realized, you know, I'm, I probably will go back and figure 577 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,600 out how it will work. But if you don't sell a lot of 578 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,160 memoir, you're probably not a publisher's not going to jump. 579 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,200 If your, your sales figures aren't good, they're not going 580 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,320 to jump to another one. And so I have to figure that 581 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:13,160 out, you know, or I can do what I've been doing, which is just 582 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,720 have the best time in the world doing something new, which in my 583 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:22,680 case is working on another musical show to perform on Long 584 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,920 Island. And I'm in a songwriting class 585 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,080 with a bunch of very talented songwriters in West Hampton. 586 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,560 And, you know, other people find their way into painting or 587 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:39,360 poetry groups. And I know this probably, you 588 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,760 know, young people would roll their eyes and be disappointed 589 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,680 in me because a lot of young, younger writers and editors look 590 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,200 up to me, you know, because when they were very little, I was in 591 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,360 the New York Times every week. And, you know, I had a big 592 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,640 presence in the the style section of the Times, and I had 593 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,600 a personal voice. And somehow I broke through and 594 00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,920 had an audience. And so people are disappointed 595 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,080 that I'm fooling around writing songs that they're never going 596 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,920 to hear, you know, But I think that. 597 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,320 How do you know they're never going to hear them? 598 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,560 Now don't you lay your expectations on me, Diane. 599 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,640 No, no expectations. Just a just a question, you 600 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:17,400 know. How do you know? 601 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,160 How do I know? Because I'm not going. 602 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,440 That's not what I want to do with them. 603 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,800 All I want to do is sing them to my songwriting group and play 604 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,360 them at my next gig in two weeks in an Italian restaurant with my 605 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,160 little band. That's you know. 606 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:34,040 I think that's how Billy Joel started. 607 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,840 And look at what happened, you know, just wasn't he sitting in 608 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,360 an Italian little Italian restaurant with a bottle of red 609 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,880 and a bottle of white and, or actually in Cold Spring Harbor 610 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,840 in a bar which my older brothers and sisters remember and, you 611 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,840 know. He was probably all 20 years 612 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:57,120 old. I, I, you have to respect the 613 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:02,080 release and of the experience of letting go. 614 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,000 You know, I think that the trick is to stay engaged. 615 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,520 And so that's really, I think what I might be talking about, 616 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,560 about taking up singing and engaging my brother in, in 617 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,800 singing. And the trick is to stay 618 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:27,120 engaged, which is. Probably why I push back on the 619 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:34,840 word of letting go, you know, because I don't think it's 620 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,560 letting go. I think it's accepting. 621 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,840 I think it's acknowledging. I think it's again, it could be 622 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,480 semantics. You know, you write books, you 623 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,920 I'm sure you debate a word, one word versus another and how is 624 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:55,760 it going to be interpreted? But you're shifting into new 625 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,800 things. You're making room. 626 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,680 You're you're making room for new possibilities. 627 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:07,160 Yes, yeah. Now we happen to be sitting in 628 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,960 the middle of the most ambitious city in the world. 629 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,320 Certainly in London. People are ashamed of being 630 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,160 ambitious. You know, they the last thing 631 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,840 they respect is somebody self promoting and you know, same 632 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,720 thing in Paris. They have a different way about 633 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:39,120 accruing power. And here my discomfort in this 634 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:45,160 transitioning in New York is that it really is a city that's 635 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,400 all about what you're working on. 636 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,680 I will go out tonight and people will say, what are you working 637 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,640 on? And, you know, 10 years ago, I 638 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,480 would have said, well, I'm work. I'm thinking about the topic of, 639 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,600 of singing. I want to write a book about why 640 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:06,960 we sing across cultures and emotionally and why, why it 641 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,520 means so much, you know, and I would talk about that and I'd 642 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,560 say, you know, and I'm publishing this piece in the 643 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,040 Times and, you know, being flown off to Europe, you know, I mean, 644 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:26,960 they that is what is social currency in my world in New 645 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,160 York, what you're working on now, you know, I'm sure there 646 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:37,080 are people who are working in other areas like that. 647 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,360 People don't want to hear about when you, but when you have a 648 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,960 byline and a slightly public following, then people want to 649 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,520 know that you're doing something like that right now. 650 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,760 Can you imagine if I said, well, I just finished a song I really 651 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,080 like about my dog? If I go to my event tonight at 652 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,160 Joe's Pub, you know and well, I. Don't know I'm. 653 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,040 I'm old enough to remember a song. 654 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,160 Me and you and a dog named Blue. Oh yeah, so or Boo, whatever the 655 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,760 dog's. Name Bojangles on a dog. 656 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,200 You know they're no, but you know what I mean. 657 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:18,400 It's just like it doesn't, it's a it's a transition of what 658 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,520 people can expect. You know, you were, you were 659 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:25,200 looking at my maybe looking at my bio or reading about me a 660 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:30,960 little bit, you know, saying, oh, it must be uncomfortable, 661 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:36,240 like leaving a very glamorous nightlife, you know, and having 662 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:42,080 a decent ethical compass, right, to be moral, but also be 663 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,720 socially ambitious or whatever it was that you very wisely 664 00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:50,120 discerned. Well, I'm not so socially 665 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,760 ambitious anymore because I'm not invited, right. 666 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,720 And so I can be, I can admit that, Oh, it would be nice to be 667 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:59,200 invited to that black tie dinner. 668 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,280 You know, I'd be really nice. Right now, I'm obsessing about 669 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,800 trying to get a preview of the new Frick, which just the Frick 670 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,160 Museum just got renovated, you know, or the opening night of, 671 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,760 you know, the next big musical, which is what I used to do, not 672 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,720 because I was so special, but because I had a column in The 673 00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:23,440 New York Times, right. So, you know, people are very 674 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,120 transactional in this town. Now. 675 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,160 The expectations of having that kind of life are, let's put it 676 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,200 this way, I'm better suited to be a bigger fish in this little 677 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,040 town on Long Island called Brookhaven then. 678 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,480 I mean, I would never ever play the songs that I play with my 679 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:48,760 band in the city, right? So you have to adjust like you 680 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,200 say. And there's fun in that. 681 00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:58,720 You know, it's, but it's also, you know, admitting I'm not what 682 00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:00,960 I had hoped I would be right now. 683 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,320 And believe me, when you live in New York and you grew up around 684 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,680 David Sedaris and Candace Bushnell and a friend of mine 685 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:15,800 who has another musical opening on Broadway and another friend 686 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:22,680 who just is doing a documentary for HBO, you know, it's it's a 687 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,240 particularly accomplished group. And all my friends are 688 00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:27,840 accomplished. They write best selling books, 689 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,840 you know, and we all enjoy each other and I'm proud to know 690 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,120 them. But I'm not accomplished that 691 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:38,120 way. Did I do something with my life? 692 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,760 Sure. You know, I made my parents very 693 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,360 proud. You know, my small town 694 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,960 librarian mom and my small town lawyer dad. 695 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,520 You know the their sons who accomplished things in business 696 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,560 and in my case, a small media career, publishing career. 697 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,280 You know they were proud. But no, on the big picture, I'm 698 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,960 not famous. I'm not that rich. 699 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,480 I'm not rich. And you know, I don't have 700 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,840 another book to pitch to you. Yeah, and that's where we are. 701 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,400 And that's what you want to always say is yet. 702 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:17,840 Well, I believe in acceptance and if you accept where you are 703 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:23,880 now without any expectations, I believe possibilities unfold. 704 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,760 If if I'm when I'm in a state of constant acceptance and I mean, 705 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:34,000 or constant challenging myself, possibilities might be less 706 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,160 likely. But the more I get into the mode 707 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,920 of, well, this is this is where I'm at today. 708 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:45,000 And all I have to do is wake up and you know, interview Bob and 709 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:49,120 I have no idea what's happening next because that's pretty much 710 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,600 how life is unfolded. I have no clue. 711 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,520 And I think I have a clue. I think I can control, I think I 712 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,560 can decide what's going to happen next. 713 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,800 And that's been proven false more times than it's been proven 714 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,680 true. So you're saying just I think I 715 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,800 I think I agree with this. Like you get up with something 716 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,640 to do. My bad days are when I don't and 717 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,480 I waste time. That's quitting. 718 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:20,680 Zoom scrolling or, you know, not that I dislike napping or that 719 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:25,880 I, I think it's valuable, but, you know, the better days are 720 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:31,320 when I do something as little as finishing a song or figuring out 721 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,680 the chords to a song, because you never know. 722 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,280 Or pitching. You know, I pitched my New 723 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,160 Yorker editor the other day and immediately got rejected. 724 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,840 But I did it, you know. That's all that counts. 725 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,840 Right and. Because that thought is now out 726 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:49,360 in the universe, and you have no idea when that editor may say 1. 727 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,800 Excuse me. It was great talking to Bob the 728 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,800 other day. I got another idea for him. 729 00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,280 Yeah, or two. I didn't think that was a great 730 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,560 idea then, but now that I've had a cup of coffee, you know, or 731 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:05,400 now that I'm in a. Better. 732 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,440 I think it's worse. Well, yeah, well, it could be. 733 00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:12,920 I don't want this to end, but we are up with our time. 734 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,520 What do you like? That here I I have acceptance 735 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,880 for the fact that we're out of. Time and I'm bummed we're going 736 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:19,120 to have to talk about this again. 737 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,360 Your wisdom, What were you going to ask? 738 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,360 I said we're just going to have to do this again because I like 739 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:28,800 your insight. Yeah, I'll come back when my 740 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,040 next book is out, Diane. I don't know. 741 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:32,440 Maybe it's going to be your next song. 742 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,160 Maybe it's going to be that play with George Hamilton. 743 00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:38,200 Yeah, I don't know, George. A lot of possibility. 744 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,520 That's. Right, George? 745 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,360 Well, thank you. This has been really great. 746 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,200 Yep. I'm inspired. 747 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:49,840 That's what it's about, right? Yeah. 748 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,760 Thank you and you inspired me. I'm Diane Grissel. 749 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,400 This has been the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics 750 00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,960 podcast. My guest has been Bob Morris, 751 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,880 the Bob Morris if you want to look up his website and there's 752 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,440 going to be all kinds of links so you can find him his books. 753 00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:10,560 I highly recommend you check out any of his articles as well as 754 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,240 books because they are great. They're very thought provoking 755 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,120 and that's what this is all about. 756 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,240 So thank you, Bob. I really appreciate your time. 757 00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:19,040 A. Pleasure. 758 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,120 Thank you, everybody. Again, we've been recording at 759 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,240 Manhattan Center and I'm going to encourage you all to 760 00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:29,680 subscribe and share this with your friends. 761 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,560 Thanks a lot. Have a great day week, see you 762 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:34,000 next time.