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Hello, I'm Diane Grissell. 
Welcome to the Silver Despedance

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Perception Dynamics podcast 
where we explore a variety of 

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operating systems within 
society. 

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And today we're operating within
Manhattan Center. 

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So I'm pretty excited to be here
because these are iconic studios

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where some of the greats have 
either played or performed. 

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So it's a lot of fun to be here 
and I, I have a super 

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fascinating guest today. 
She is a true entrepreneurial 

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spirit, an athlete and 
entrepreneur, a real innovator. 

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Her name's Dale Noel. 
She is the founder of True Model

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Management, and she started as a
model and then morphed into 

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owning an agency, and now she's 
a real fabulous spokesperson for

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the industry. 
And so, Dale, thank you so much 

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for joining me. 
Oh, thank you so much for having

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me. 
You know, Dale, one of the 

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things I want to start with 
right off the bat is I didn't 

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start modeling till I was 56. 
And frankly, I'll tell you 

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straight up, I had no idea what 
a model did the day I was 

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scouted. 
So let's start with what's your 

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definition of what is a model? 
Because everyone thinks, oh 

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they're so good looking, you 
should model. 

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But I would disagree with that 
statement. 

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So I'd love to hear your 
thoughts. 

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Well, that's a great question 
because there is a very broad 

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definition these days of what a 
model is. 

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Historically, people always 
think it's a tall, thin runway 

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model or just the gorgeous 
perfect face on a magazine page.

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And nowadays modeling is so much
more. 

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The models, they still have the 
basic job of showcasing, you 

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know, accessories or you know, 
fashion. 

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It could be any type of product 
or service, but they come in all

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shapes and sizes and ethnicities
these days. 

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It's been great to watch and to 
be part of. 

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When I was a model, it was more 
cookie cutter and very basic. 

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If you didn't fit in the mold, 
it was difficult. 

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And I was one of those models 
who didn't exactly fit into the 

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mold, and I just acted myself. 
And I don't know, I think it 

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was. 
Let's talk about that how you 

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started modeling. 
Oh well, I wore many hats in the

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fashion industry I started. 
Let's see, I had a couple of 

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brands that I own starting back 
in college, but Fast forward 

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there as a production manager, a
salesperson traveling around the

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country, it was the salesperson 
job that led me to modeling 

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everywhere trade show I was at, 
I would be asked like, or people

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just hand me clothes. 
I'm like in my booth, like 

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selling, you know, and I've got,
you know, department stores 

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there, boutiques and they're 
like, Oh yes, excuse me, can you

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put this on? 
I'm like, no, I'm working, you 

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know, like I'm working, you 
know. 

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So hearing it too many times, I 
just had the push from a 

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designer work this, she's like, 
damn, you have to check out 

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modelling. 
So I did one day I called top 

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three agencies and management 
companies in the world and one 

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decided to see me in person and 
I kind of laughed it off. 

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I said, OK, great. 
If they want to see me in 

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person, I'll go to the meeting 
and then I'll be over. 

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I'll go back to business and you
know, that's it. 

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So lo and behold, I got a 
contract on the spot from the 

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largest agency in the world. 
And the next day they were 

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sending me messages. 
Can you meet Calvin Klein? 

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Can you meet Victoria's Secret, 
The Gap and one other French 

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company? 
And I got all of them. 

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And I was like, wait a minute, 
like, that wasn't supposed to 

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happen. 
And I was like, I have a job 

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anyway. 
So I wound up quitting my day 

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job became a model, which is not
the usual typical model story, 

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but I kind of got into it by 
accident. 

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So I was very lucky and 
fortunate that way. 

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I did not think it would last. 
I said, you know, maybe I'll do 

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it one year and then we'll see 
what takes us. 

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But Fast forward and. 
And here you are. 

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You own a model management 
company. 

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What? 
What do you think has have been 

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some big shifts from the days 
you started as a model to today?

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Yeah, as you were saying before,
the cookie cutter mold is 

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broken. 
Nowadays, models are all sizes, 

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shapes, ethnicities and a true 
model management. 

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We've represented all of the 
different types of people before

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diversity and inclusion became 
trending, you know, phrases. 

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And I'm really happy to see how 
it's opened up and that models 

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now have a voice. 
They're not just those, you 

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know, beautiful people walking 
down the runway or posing with a

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product. 
They bring their life 

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experiences, their services, 
their charitable works, their 

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personality, you know, their 
activism. 

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All different aspects of models 
life can be brought to the table

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nowadays, not always on the job,
you know, you have to still be 

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the what the client is trying to
portray. 

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So some jobs are a little 
acting, you know, model that 

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combined with acting to you 
know, you might have to wear 

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clothes or something that's not 
your style. 

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Say, you know, you should still 
always be your own self on set. 

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So I don't want to get that 
wrong. 

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You shouldn't be faking who you 
are, but for the ad, you might 

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have your hair styled a way that
you wouldn't normally wear it or

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your makeup done how you 
wouldn't normally wear it. 

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So you're still there to be of 
service to the client. 

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You know, you mentioned 
something interesting, all the 

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different things models are 
involved with, because one of 

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the things I hear casting agents
say these days is, well, we want

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somebody who can model, but the 
client is also looking for 

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someone who has some other 
interests. 

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Have you noticed that as a 
trend? 

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Why do you think that is? 
Where did that come from? 

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Is that the Internet and social 
media or what is that? 

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Absolutely. 
That is a trend that I hope this

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continues forever because it's 
been a good part of the 

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business. 
But I believe that it started 

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from the Internet. 
Like you said, in social media, 

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many models are also 
influencers, and many 

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influencers now are becoming 
models so that the industries 

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are crossing and merging and 
there's more connection there 

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than ever before. 
When if I go back into the 80s, 

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there were, we'll call them the 
supermodels. 

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Is that a trend you think is 
happening today or is that trend

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over? 
Are there supermodels today or 

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are there models that are just 
more popular than those 

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supermodels were? 
I think it's all semantics. 

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I think there were and there 
were the supermodels and the 

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pack of models that were 
together and all to at the same 

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shows and in the same ads and 
the same parties and they 

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travelled in like a a pack. 
I don't notice that as much 

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anymore. 
And they're not they're not 

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label labeling them as they were
in the past. 

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I think it was more about the 
labels in the presentation. 

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There still are popular models, 
but I think they portray them 

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more, you know, as friends and 
influencers and different ways 

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so. 
When when you look when as a 

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professional who certainly knows
the industry far better than 

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most people, you've probably 
forgotten more more about the 

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modeling industry than most 
people will ever know. 

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So there's a variety of 
different categories of 

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modeling. 
There's fit modeling, there's 

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runway as you mentioned, there's
commercial, there's print. 

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What? 
How would you classify the 

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different looks that someone 
might want to think about for 

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themselves if they wanted to 
model? 

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Oh, sure. 
For modeling, we could start 

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with the classic, the runway or 
the editorial model. 

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So these are the models that 
you're used to seeing with very 

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symmetrical faces, flawless 
skin, very thin and narrow long 

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legs, toned bodies. 
Those models, they are, for a 

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while they were getting away 
from them and trying to be very 

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diverse on the runway. 
It seems like there's a shift 

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back to being more classic 
runway type of beauties. 

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There are many people who have 
that body naturally. 

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So the sad part is when they're 
the person does not have that 

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physique naturally and they'll 
starve themselves to try and be 

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that. 
So I think that's where some 

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dangers lie when people are 
saying, oh, that's not 

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attainable. 
It's like for some people, 

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they're naturally like that. 
I've met many of them, but 

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others, you know, suffer greatly
trying to attain that. 

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So my advice for people want to 
be a model like find who you 

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are, define who you are, what 
feels good and healthy to you 

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and be the best version of 
yourself and then find your 

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place. 
Not say I want to be a runway 

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model and like I did some 
runway, but I was always the 

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biggest and the shortest and you
know, they would look at me and 

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be like, but I had huge clients 
and you know, depending who, you

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know, sometimes you can get into
shows just because who knows you

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And like they're like, oh, we 
want to see her because all of 

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them are too skinny. 
You know, let's throw her in 

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there. 
So I kind of was a plus model 

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sort of for some of the print 
and runway in the very early 

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90s. 
And I was like a slim athletic 

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size 6. 
But you know, standing at 5, 

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eightish and having broad 
shoulders, you know, they said 

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Cindy Crawford was so big back 
then and I looked enormous. 

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Next time I was just like, OK, 
well, there's something wrong 

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with that picture here. 
But to get back to the types of 

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models, though, you hit on a lot
of them, yes, their lifestyle 

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commercial models who do a lot 
of e-commerce and they sell 

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everyday products. 
There are athletic, you know, 

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fitness models. 
So if you have the physique and 

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you love working out and our 
bigger muscles and definition 

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than most, that might be an Ave.
for you. 

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If you're, you know, a size 18 
woman or a big and tall man, you

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know, you could be in the plus 
or you know, big and tall type 

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of work parts modelings and 
don't look at my hands, but you 

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have beautiful hands or feet or 
hair like you. 

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I'm sure you must have done hair
modeling, you know. 

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The number one thing I got hired
there. 

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You go beautiful eyes, lips, you
know, So there's a whole 

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industry just in parts, you 
know, there's maternity models, 

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there's pretty much everything. 
So I think if you just find what

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you feel makes you shine and 
then seek managers or agents or 

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even clients directly, whatever 
works for your lifestyle and 

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your business. 
You know, that is such good 

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advice because so many people 
will call me up and say my 

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daughter or my son or I want to 
be a model. 

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And my first question is, do you
understand what a model is and 

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what they do? 
And that your job is not to have

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one pose, but to that minute 
that camera turns on, you need 

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to come alive. 
You need, you need to make this 

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cup feel like it is the most 
nice. 

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You. 
Have ever touched in your life 

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and whatever's in it is liquid, 
you know the elixir of a health 

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or energy or whatever and you 
know it's not that one pose it's

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not that one look which you see 
a lot on let's say Instagram or 

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social media where there's 
always you know the one face the

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perfect I'm going to I believe 
this side of my face looks good.

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So every picture is going to be 
on this. 

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I remember getting yelled at by 
my first photographer on a shoot

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for Amazon and Oprah. 
And the photographer, first of 

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all, at 56, I was cast as the 
chic 70 year old, which was the 

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first funny part. 
And then I was so nervous. 

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And he says to me, he goes, OK, 
I realize you think this 

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particular angle on your face is
your best, but now could you 

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give me your whole face? 
That's so funny. 

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Yes, you are spot on. 
I mean, part of what we were 

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talking about before about 
personality and bringing that, 

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that is part of modeling because
your personality and your life 

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needs to come through the lens 
and you need movement. 

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So some dancers, you know, are 
phenomenal on the camera. 

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Just naturals are gracefully 
pick that mug up and and knowing

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your angles. 
And a lot of people don't 

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realize with modeling how much 
work it really is. 

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I mean, there are naturals who 
just go in from the camera and 

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they become someone's muse right
away and instant, you know, fame

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that has happened. 
But 99% of the rest of us that 

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you know, have to learn the 
angles, you know, because I got 

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in through one division of 
modeling, the fit modeling 

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production part. 
But from there is how I got into

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print and runway and all of the 
other. 

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00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,000
And I had to really, really work
at all the types of modeling and

227
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,720
their different skills. 
It's different, you know, you 

228
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,880
need to do your homework, you 
need to be present and 

229
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,760
professional. 
I think people that think, oh, 

230
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,880
you know, my daughter's 
beautiful or my son is gorgeous,

231
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,160
you know, they could be models. 
It's like that could very well 

232
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,680
be absolutely, but it depends. 
Is this the type of personality 

233
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,960
that wants to put the work in 
and has the resilience, you 

234
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,680
know, for all the rejection And 
then like, go back to the 

235
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:56,600
drawing board, like you said, 
change your face. 

236
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,040
Show me more. 
It's like, OK, you have to be 

237
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,560
willing to be in front of the 
camera and in front of the 

238
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,360
mirror all the time. 
Well, you know that in front of 

239
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,400
the mirror. 
It's so funny. 

240
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:11,200
I remember when I was first 
signed, the agency brought me in

241
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:15,400
and they said, OK, you know, we 
realize, you know, you're 56, 

242
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,240
everyone's going to assume you 
know what you're doing when you 

243
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,040
walk on because they're going to
assume you've done this your 

244
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,760
whole life, but you haven't. 
So we're going to assign 2 

245
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,760
models who've been around a long
time and both of them were 

246
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,400
Brazilian and they moved like 
dreams had started when they 

247
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,920
were 13 and we're both in their 
early 30s. 

248
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,600
And I'm like, and my wildest 
dreams, I'm never going to be as

249
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,520
fluid as these two girls were. 
And then I remember it's like, 

250
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,720
no, what? 
You know that to make that jump 

251
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,640
movement, you're going to step 
and step back and you're going 

252
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,440
to step and step. 
You know the little tricks of 

253
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,600
the trade. 
Or when you do your first beauty

254
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,840
campaign and you're waiting for 
them to send you to wardrobe or 

255
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,920
something, and all they do is 
change your shirt and you're 

256
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,440
standing in front of the beauty 
stand and you're supposed to 

257
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,760
just know how to move your hands
in certain ways. 

258
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,800
You know, to not make your hands
look like claws, which is so 

259
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,000
easy to do. 
Hands are so hard. 

260
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,040
Oh my gosh, how hard are hands? 
Especially if they're not. 

261
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,040
Oh my God. 
And as I've gotten older I'm 

262
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,240
like, I really notice how hard 
hands are as I put mine onto 

263
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:25,760
the. 
Table. 

264
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,880
I did a Sally Hansen commercial 
one day and they're like, you 

265
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,840
know, can you bring your hands 
over here? 

266
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,880
We need some close-ups. 
And I'm like, Oh my God, Are you

267
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,720
sure you want my? 
They did make it into the 

268
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:39,800
campaign. 
I was shocked. 

269
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,160
There you go. 
No, I don't think so. 

270
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:51,680
But it it was interesting to see
just the angles of just when 

271
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,800
somebody is trying to just get 
your hands taken. 

272
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,200
And when you do talk to those 
hand models who do nothing but 

273
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,240
wear gloves pretty much 24 hours
and are have the most soft 

274
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,440
moisturized hands, the perfect 
manicures 24/7. 

275
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:05,840
Such a business. 
Wow. 

276
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,720
I was friends with one. 
It was unbelievable. 

277
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,360
By the way, it affects your life
to keep those hands. 

278
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,400
And you know, posing, you know, 
one of the things I was well, 

279
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,840
actually before posing, when 
people say what are things I 

280
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,440
should do? 
I the first thing I say, well, 

281
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:24,880
are you aware you're going to 
need to get some pictures to an 

282
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,680
agency without any makeup on? 
And that's usually the first 

283
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:35,880
harsh, the first reality check 
talk about how different brands 

284
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:43,840
are how or you as a model 
management firm, the idea of, 

285
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,840
you know, you're selling a 
product, you are selling that 

286
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,800
face, that, that look, that body
to a client. 

287
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,160
And what let's say Ralph Lauren 
might buy might not be what 

288
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:03,520
Diane von Furstenberg might buy 
or or Eileen Fisher or any other

289
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:09,079
brand or Lululemon, because they
all have a look to some degree. 

290
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,839
So how, how do you explain that 
to people? 

291
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:16,560
Yeah, we explained that to 
people just by saying bring your

292
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,680
uniqueness. 
You know, there is a place for 

293
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,520
almost everyone and if there 
isn't yet, let's carve that 

294
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,320
niche and bring it to the 
fashion or the modelling or the 

295
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,640
advertising industry. 
So I feel like the people who 

296
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,360
especially nowadays where they 
don't conform to the cookie 

297
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:41,840
cutter look and try to fix 
everything about their teeth or 

298
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,920
fix everything about, about, you
know, their hair, whenever it is

299
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,960
that uniqueness, there are many 
brands who say, Oh, we want that

300
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:55,240
tooth gap or we want that, you 
know, you know, very full hair 

301
00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,440
or we want whatever it might be,
anything unique is so sought 

302
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,200
after these days. 
So people that were ashamed of 

303
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,160
something about themselves or 
felt like, Oh, I look like 

304
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,000
different than everybody else. 
I, I don't feel left out. 

305
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,840
It's like, now's your time to 
shine. 

306
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,760
So isn't that? 
True when I love when I walk, 

307
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:18,080
weather wherever I am. 
And billboards vary throughout 

308
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:19,720
the city. 
So if you're in the Lower East 

309
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,800
Side, the brands that choose the
certain kind of billboard there 

310
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,080
is different than the Billboard 
you might see in Times Square or

311
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,760
outside of Madison Square Garden
on the rotating billboards. 

312
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,640
It's so funny how different 
brands choose their neighborhood

313
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,160
for their ad. 
Smart it is. 

314
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,760
Smart cater to the clients or 
the customers. 

315
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,680
Yeah. 
And it's fascinating to see 

316
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,840
today the different looks, 
whether it's the ethnicities, 

317
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:50,040
the hair, the skin tones, the 
the teeth, the I mean 

318
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,880
everything, the sizes, the 
shapes. 

319
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,800
Tattoos like some will not go 
near. 

320
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,400
We're like we need clean 
palette. 

321
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,640
No, not a speck on the skin. 
And others are like, show me the

322
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,880
craziest tattoos or we want to 
see a scar. 

323
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,560
We want to see, you know, we 
hear everything. 

324
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,120
So that makes it a lot more 
interesting and challenging for 

325
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,320
our job as model managers too, 
because before you're always 

326
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,200
looking for almost the same 
type, you know, and you still 

327
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,680
need a certain amount of each 
type, but it's, it's more 

328
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,000
interesting nowadays and you not
need to work with a lot more 

329
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,160
people. 
So if someone said they wanted 

330
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,280
to model, I would tell them get 
used to standing in front of a 

331
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,240
mirror for a bit. 
What would you say about that? 

332
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,840
Absolutely in front of mirror, 
in front of the camera. 

333
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,600
Have everyone take pictures of 
you and really do your homework 

334
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,600
and analyze those pictures and 
seek the advice of, you know, 

335
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,400
any professional that you 
personally know, whether it's a 

336
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,160
photographer or a manager or 
someone who's a model themself. 

337
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,600
I mean, the best lessons I got a
lot were on the job working with

338
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,600
other models. 
Like you were saying, the the 

339
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,520
models you worked with, you 
know, you're watching how they 

340
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,080
move. 
I did the same exact thing. 

341
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:12,200
You try and emulate the basic 
principles and the movements of 

342
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,160
the best you know. 
So get used to watching those 

343
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:22,040
models on you know, the Internet
and and come up with your own 

344
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,680
unique way of doing things. 
But to see what works and 

345
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,320
doesn't work with a lot of trial
and error or working with 

346
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,560
professionals so. 
You know, it's it's so true what

347
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,920
you're saying. 
I found it so I learned more on 

348
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,320
set from photographers, not only
also the models that have been 

349
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,480
around a long time. 
Like, I remember being on set 

350
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,680
with Pat Tracy, who's, you know,
been a model for forever and 

351
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,600
she's stunning. 
And she's, you know, late 60s, 

352
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,000
maybe 70 now. 
And we had to do something 

353
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,760
together. 
And she'd say, Diane, whatever. 

354
00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:00,280
I do count to 2 and then you do 
the exact move. 

355
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,480
She goes that way. 
We're never doing the same thing

356
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,960
at the same time. 
Just study what I'm doing and 

357
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:06,720
then you do it. 
You do your version. 

358
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,960
That's so nice of her. 
It was so nice and the pictures 

359
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,960
came out great. 
Now I think it was a big Keurig 

360
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,200
campaign as we're both having 
this great conversation over our

361
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,880
cup of coffee in the morning. 
But if it wasn't for her being 

362
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,120
so generous teaching me that, or
if I think of the photographers,

363
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,840
you know, that would say just 
different things, like often 

364
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,760
starting with relax. 
Which is a funny. 

365
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,160
Word like just, you know, have 
fun. 

366
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,880
You know, we're just relaxing 
here. 

367
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,560
We're having we're moving. 
But so much has to do with 

368
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,520
getting used to looking at your,
as you said, your angles in a 

369
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,680
mirror and what looks right. 
Yes, I'm being comfort, 

370
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,840
comfortable and confident. 
Confidence is huge. 

371
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,880
I mean that you walk in the 
door. 

372
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:57,600
I've been behind the scenes many
times when the major designers 

373
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,400
are casting and seeing their 
faces, their reaction, then who 

374
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,120
gets chosen? 
It's like that first, second 

375
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,800
when you walk in the door. 
That is almost everything. 

376
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,800
And you've got to walk in 
without being arrogant, but as 

377
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,120
if you, you know, command the 
attention and deserve it and 

378
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:18,920
you're just a joy to be around 
and you have confidence. 

379
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,560
You know you need to exude 
confidence. 

380
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,480
You know you are a a great 
spokesperson for the industry 

381
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,480
and looking at you, I kidded you
about your delts, but I wasn't 

382
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,280
kidding. 
I was genuinely jealous. 

383
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,800
I mean, a good pair of delts are
awesome, especially on a woman 

384
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,920
who's fit, lean. 
I've seen you in fancy outfits. 

385
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:45,400
I've seen you in casual clothes.
You personify that, you know be 

386
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,240
a healthy person. 
Weren't that part of your being 

387
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,240
developed from? 
Were you always that way or did 

388
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,760
it come about? 
Well, I have a long history of 

389
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,880
medical issues and near death 
experiences, and that's a whole 

390
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,800
other other podcast. 
But yeah, health was always a 

391
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,440
big topic and the house I grew 
up in and for me especially, it 

392
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,600
was usually focused around me. 
Like the house got to be 

393
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,760
healthy, you know, and I was 
always, my father was an 

394
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,080
advocate of a calisthenics. 
They called it calisthenics back

395
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,440
then, working out. 
And I was a gymnast and a 

396
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,680
competitive baton twirler and a 
dancer and exercise was, you 

397
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,280
know, part of our daily routine.
And if there wasn't like formal 

398
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,800
exercise, my dad would be like, 
OK, put on my Army boots, grab 

399
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,480
those weights, go up and down 
the stairs. 

400
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,880
Like we, it was like work camp 
at my house. 

401
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,240
You know, I'm, I'm first 
generation American. 

402
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,840
He's from Italy, so we have 
that. 

403
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,720
Army boots going up and down. 
Literally did that. 

404
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,120
I was a little kid, so and then 
everything was manual labor 

405
00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:54,040
growing up. 
And I thought it was like, Oh my

406
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,760
gosh, because we're so poor, you
know, it was like, we have to do

407
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,520
everything. 
So we made things from scratch. 

408
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,320
We had in our basement a wood 
shop, a metal shop. 

409
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,360
If you thought of it, go make 
it. 

410
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,920
If it breaks, you learn how to 
fix it. 

411
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:13,280
You know, we were composting and
we were recycling everything. 

412
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,040
My grandmother with her glass 
jars. 

413
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,760
And I'm just like my little, I'm
like the little grandma now, you

414
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,680
know, saving my good glass jars 
from, you know, a jam or 

415
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,640
whatever it is. 
But getting back to your thing, 

416
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,280
everything in our house, you 
know, the toy we had, you know, 

417
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,400
I got a soccer ball. 
We were at the soccer growing 

418
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,640
up. 
So it was like, OK, this is your

419
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,440
soccer ball for life. 
So here's a jar of saddle soap 

420
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,760
and every day you're saddle 
soaping your ball. 

421
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,160
You know, I loved baseball. 
It was like you got to my dad 

422
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,400
was so big on saddle soap. 
So it was like that wax on, wax 

423
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,600
off everything. 
Every toy we had, we were like 

424
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,360
ocean saddle soap, everything. 
He's he ruined my first 

425
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,400
expensive couch I bought when I 
was modeling and ruined it with 

426
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,240
saddle soap. 
Like, what are you doing? 

427
00:24:56,360 --> 00:25:00,600
But the point is, everything we 
did was hard manual labor. 

428
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,240
We would paint the house, We'd 
climb up on the ladders, go on 

429
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:04,640
the roof. 
We'd cut the tree down. 

430
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,480
You know, we were sawing. 
We were. 

431
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,120
So we learned how to do a lot of
the jobs that people hire people

432
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,600
to do. 
But it made all of us really 

433
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,600
strong. 
And then just it kind of stayed 

434
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,800
with us. 
And my dad made working out fun.

435
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,720
So we didn't know that carrying 
all those cement bags to and 

436
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,160
from the car because we were 
going to do this, you know, or 

437
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,760
the soil, you know, we did the 
garden yourself. 

438
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,880
I used to mow the lawn and push 
a manual lawn, you know, So I 

439
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,400
was always so strong and my 
sister too, and my brother and 

440
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,320
yeah, So it just is ingrained in
US. 

441
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,080
And when people see me nowadays,
I'm always like, you know, at 

442
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,720
the grocery store, they'll be 
like delivery, right? 

443
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,440
I'm like, I'm good. 
I'm going to like, light them 

444
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,160
up. 
And I'm just like walking home 

445
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,560
like, so I don't really have a 
formal workout right now, but my

446
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,120
life, you know, I'll take the 
stairs instead of taking the 

447
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:57,040
elevator in many situations. 
I'll carry everything. 

448
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,360
I'm always lugging things. 
So I think the arms come from 

449
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,560
everything that I just carry 
every day. 

450
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,960
I love this. 
So you really just made it big 

451
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:12,400
Fit is just a part of your life.
Yeah, that's the only way at 

452
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,720
this point. 
We're in the past since I've had

453
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,680
true, that's been the way it's 
working for me. 

454
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,600
But I just formally started. 
I did go to the gym this past 

455
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,840
week and I'm registering for a 
registered for triathlon. 

456
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,480
So I am going to start training 
or I did just start. 

457
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,000
So I'm on I'm on my journey. 
And you know, many years I was a

458
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,880
trainer. 
I was a physical trainer in my 

459
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,760
20s and on and off and a little 
older and a health coach. 

460
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:47,080
And the health coaching that 
was, I think it's stemmed from, 

461
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,360
you know, I had to deal with so 
many health issues and I was 

462
00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:53,480
friends with so many doctors and
I'm, you know, no stranger to 

463
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,400
hospitals. 
So I was doing it to deepen my 

464
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,440
own understanding and practice 
of my own body and self. 

465
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,440
And then when I went through my 
certification program, I 

466
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,520
realized like, oh, I could help 
other people. 

467
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,320
You know, it was kind of, I knew
I could, but then so I did it 

468
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,960
for a short while helping other 
people through health coaching. 

469
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,240
And now I lean on the knowledge 
to casually help people. 

470
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,520
I don't really do it as a 
business now, but I do want to 

471
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,360
get more into the health and 
lifestyle and Wellness business 

472
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:27,760
because people keep asking for 
it and there's such a need so. 

473
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,720
Well, you have a lot of areas in
your life where you have 

474
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,960
explored. 
We we were talking one day a 

475
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,160
couple of months ago and you 
mentioned, you know, refinishing

476
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,160
furniture. 
And now I know this story about 

477
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,320
your father and the saddle soap.
Yeah. 

478
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,880
We have to refinish furniture. 
Yeah, I've always recycled, 

479
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:50,720
repurpose and now it's trending.
So we if, if this if I was 

480
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,960
growing up today, I'd be like 
the cool kid, you know, but I 

481
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,160
love all that Yes. 
And whenever I get more time, I 

482
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,480
would love to that to work that 
into my business as well. 

483
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,360
How? 
How are your days divided You 

484
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:09,800
You travel, you have your 
management model, management 

485
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,360
company, you have these. 
Passions. 

486
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:15,640
How do you fit lots of in 
passions? 

487
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,360
I let's see. 
I don't sleep as much as most 

488
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:25,760
people I believe, but besides 
that, I would say I usually 

489
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,160
group things together either 
whether it's location or topic 

490
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:36,640
to get a few things done at once
is one thing that I do As far as

491
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,920
my day, every day is totally 
different. 

492
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,680
I do travel a lot and I usually 
I'm always working when I'm 

493
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,720
travelling. 
Some people are like, oh, you're

494
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,400
on vacation again, I'm like not 
exactly, but you know, I am 

495
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,560
travelling. 
So I would say I I've learned to

496
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,640
delegate a lot. 
I have to say I do a lot every 

497
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,600
day. 
But at true now I pretty much 

498
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,600
oversee all the problems come to
me. 

499
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,760
So I'm always dealing with the 
lawyers, the accountants and the

500
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,920
issue that comes up. 
It's very time consuming. 

501
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:12,240
So a lot of my day really is on 
the phone in the emails, you 

502
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,800
know, putting on my lawyer hat 
to redline contracts because I'm

503
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,000
very much an advocate and 
supporter and protector of the 

504
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,680
models. 
So contracts that we get at the 

505
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,520
last minute before a job. 
I've, you know, many people 

506
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,000
might or other people might just
so sign it. 

507
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,040
Like I read everything. 
I'm like, I don't like that. 

508
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,600
They're like, Nope, not allowed 
to make client might be like not

509
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,800
allowed to make changes. 
I'm like, let me talk to the 

510
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,520
general counsel. 
Let's see what we can do here. 

511
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,600
You know, so I'm always trying 
to improve things. 

512
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,720
So I, I get very involved and 
passionate, sometimes maybe more

513
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,200
than I, I need to. 
So I would say my days are 

514
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,040
divided up. 
I love in person meetings. 

515
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:57,320
I love, I still work one-on-one.
Whoever the model is that comes 

516
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,360
to me and says, you know, I'd 
like to work with you 

517
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,200
one-on-one. 
I need some training, I need 

518
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,920
some guidance. 
I make myself available. 

519
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,000
I like to do it in person as 
much as possible. 

520
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,840
So that's takes time. 
That's one of my most most 

521
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:15,080
enjoyable parts of my job. 
If not, it's a zoom call or a 

522
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,920
phone call. 
And I also I hire unbelievable 

523
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,680
people. 
The team a true model management

524
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,640
is incredible. 
So they pretty much run the 

525
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,000
day-to-day. 
I do my check insurance. 

526
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,000
They come to me with problems, 
needs, tools that you know have 

527
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,200
to be put in place and figure 
out the overall overall 

528
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,000
organization. 
So I'm very much the a visionary

529
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,320
and always have been. 
So I think that's the best place

530
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:41,680
for me. 
I. 

531
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,600
Said a lot of things that raise 
so many questions I'm. 

532
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,000
Trying to keep like did I even 
answer your question because I 

533
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,280
can Babble a. 
Lot sometimes you, you answered 

534
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,720
it beautifully, but OK, one 
question anyone watching this 

535
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,840
would be curious about how, how 
does somebody go about becoming 

536
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,400
a model today? 
Today Becoming a model there are

537
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,880
many avenues to become a model 
you can apply online either to a

538
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,400
model manager, agency or 
directly to clients and brands 

539
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,680
you see that you like through 
social media. 

540
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:22,360
A lot happens just Dming and 
most managers, agents have an 

541
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,520
online presence on their website
where you can submit your 

542
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,760
photos. 
And if you're doing that route, 

543
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,040
I would suggest to take very 
clean, like you said, no makeup 

544
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,720
or very little makeup and you 
know, fitted outfit or a 

545
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:42,400
swimsuit front, side back photos
and less is usually more. 

546
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,400
If you have some professional 
pictures to put in there with 

547
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,960
those, what they call digitals, 
the front, side back pictures, 

548
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,680
that's great. 
But they really want to see who 

549
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,480
you are and what the client will
be delivered, like the clean 

550
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,400
palette, so the client knows 
what they have to work with. 

551
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,880
You know, if you want to put a 
special note in there, that's 

552
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,400
great. 
They'll usually want your body 

553
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,920
measurements, clothing size. 
You can attend networking events

554
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,720
to meet people in the industry. 
It depends on your personality 

555
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,000
and style and the approach that 
you want to take. 

556
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,000
Because modeling is a business. 
So I think sometimes people lose

557
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,040
sight of that. 
Oh, I want to be a model. 

558
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,240
And I think like, I'm just going
to step into glamour. 

559
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,160
You're not. 
You know, I, I cannot tell you 

560
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,480
how many and I'm not the person 
to do it. 

561
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,440
You know, it's not like I have, 
you know, I mean, you've done, 

562
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,040
I've done some really big 
campaigns, but I'm, it's not 

563
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,880
like I have some longevity 
career and modeling like so many

564
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,760
people do. 
But I I feel terrible when I say

565
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,240
to somebody, wait a second, you 
know you're going to have to 

566
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,800
wash your face. 
You know. 

567
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,040
You're going to have to wash 
your face. 

568
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,960
They're going to want to see, as
you said, what they're buying 

569
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,480
because and it's so funny 
because I've done campaigns 

570
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,680
where I've looked at the after 
pictures or even funnier when my

571
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,480
husband or kids are and they 
said didn't they like maybe want

572
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,360
to touch that up a little, you 
know, and I'll say, well, you 

573
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,480
know, they wanted me to be the 
70 year old. 

574
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,400
Grandmother in that. 
Campaign and then there'll be 

575
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,600
other ones where, you know, it's
like, yeah, I wish I could walk 

576
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,800
around looking like that all the
time because it looks nothing 

577
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,800
like me. 
But, you know, I look like 

578
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,640
somebody took 20 years off 
because not only was the makeup 

579
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,840
perfect, the hair stylist was 
amazing. 

580
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,480
The clothes were cool and chic, 
you know, and then somebody 

581
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,680
touched it up amazingly in the 
air in post production. 

582
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,280
So it's so funny. 
But the first, the first hurdle,

583
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,800
it fascinates me how many people
are the first pictures when 

584
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,840
they'll say, well, could you 
could you help me get something 

585
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,080
to an agency I like? 
Well, send me a couple of 

586
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,760
pictures with no makeup on. 
They either have make up or 

587
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,880
they've been totally 
photoshopped. 

588
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,720
Yeah. 
Or filtered, yes. 

589
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,520
Well, the one key though, 
lighting. 

590
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,680
Lighting is everything. 
So in addition to learning your 

591
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,920
angles, the lighting's even or 
almost just as important or even

592
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,440
more important sometimes I feel 
because like you don't want this

593
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,880
light coming over you casting a 
shadow on every line or bag 

594
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,920
under your eyes, whatever it is.
So the pictures that you send, 

595
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,960
try to find the best natural 
lighting you absolutely can with

596
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,199
a clean light or white 
background without clutter from 

597
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,800
your house all over. 
Like I would work on that 

598
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,000
location and the lighting. 
Yeah, that location, I get a lot

599
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,639
of pictures from bathrooms. 
I'm like, OK, can you find a 

600
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,560
white wall? 
Can you or even a brick wall? 

601
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,360
Go out on the street, find a 
brick wall, a door. 

602
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,159
You can stand in front of his. 
Better, probably than the toilet

603
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,840
in the background. 
I agree and usually bathroom 

604
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,440
lighting is not the best. 
Exactly. 

605
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,360
You do want to shine the best 
light on yourself before you 

606
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,960
take those pictures. 
And you don't have to wear a 

607
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:02,800
swimsuit in the street if you're
going to do you know the 

608
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,920
background. 
You could wear fitted jeans, a 

609
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,840
tank top or a black or any color
fitted tank top and legging 

610
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,920
something that they can at least
see your shape. 

611
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,040
I mean swimsuits grey so you can
see the skin tone and 

612
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,960
everything. 
But you could start with the 

613
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,960
shape if you want to do it 
outside and you're not 

614
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,560
comfortable standing your 
bathing suit somewhere. 

615
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,120
And as and as you say, you know,
there are possibilities 

616
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,920
everywhere. 
Another thing like I know I 

617
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,640
would say to people, look, go 
through magazines and try to 

618
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,720
figure out which brands you 
think absolutely you could 

619
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,960
imagine yourself in. 
I mean, Victoria's Secret's not 

620
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,920
hiring me to walk down a runway,
not today and frankly not ever, 

621
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,440
you know, well. 
That might be your choice, but 

622
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:50,800
they might be looking for you. 
No, I do have pride, but you 

623
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,360
know, it's like knowing. 
But that's an interesting point 

624
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,600
too. 
It might be their choice, which 

625
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,440
is a big thing. 
That's that's a very interesting

626
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,640
point to keep in mind. 
Not as far as Victoria's Secret 

627
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:03,880
with me. 
We're not talking about that, 

628
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,600
but I'm talking about in 
general. 

629
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,240
But it does. 
Would you encourage people who 

630
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,920
say they want to model, you 
know, look through magazines, 

631
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,440
figure out what brands seem like
you blend with? 

632
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,200
Yeah, I think any research you 
can do on the industry that you 

633
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,840
want to get into. 
As I said before, modeling is a 

634
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,240
business. 
So the more homework you do from

635
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:29,080
every angle aspect, you know, go
to the stores, try all the 

636
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,520
clothes, look at what they have 
hanging in the store, look at 

637
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,480
the billboards, look at the 
online ads, magazine ads, 

638
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,440
absolutely. 
And and see the way they're 

639
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,840
posing to, you know, the way 
they dress themselves. 

640
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,240
Because when you go to a client,
you want to, you know, bring 

641
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,440
across the side of you that is 
most like their customer, if 

642
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,400
that's what they're looking for.
Or, you know, some people, some 

643
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:55,200
clients hire or some brands hire
because they want to change what

644
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,160
they're doing and they want to 
hire you as the muse to look 

645
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,680
like your own personality and 
bring that to their brand. 

646
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,720
But more often than not, it's 
like they're bringing you in to 

647
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:09,440
portray their brand. 
So it definitely helps to look 

648
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,640
and practice emulating 
everything. 

649
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,160
You know, you were talking 
earlier about you go through all

650
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,880
the contracts and you're looking
at all, you know, these red 

651
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,560
lines and well, you know, we 
need to discuss this. 

652
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,320
One of the things that I hear so
many models talking about is and

653
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,520
actors, and we and I interviewed
the chief correspondent of 

654
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,480
Variety not too long ago. 
We were talking about the impact

655
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,600
of AI on the world of modeling 
and acting and writing and, and 

656
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,120
all aspects of entertainment in 
many ways. 

657
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,000
How are you finding that's 
impacting the world of modeling?

658
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,000
I'm so glad you brought this 
point about AI because in the 

659
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,880
very early 1990s, I was 
approached by one of my client 

660
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,640
clients who's a major brand that
everybody knows. 

661
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,200
They wanted to scan my body. 
I was in a lot of the early 

662
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,240
meetings and I would see on the 
screen someone else's body at 

663
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:07,920
the time or a computer generated
body and they were, you know, 

664
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,400
showing every angle this 3D and 
they asked to scan me. 

665
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,520
We talked about, you know, rates
and how it would work. 

666
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:20,920
There were no laws about how my 
IP, my intellectual property or 

667
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,760
my likeness would be protected 
and who would own it. 

668
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,440
So since I believe it was 1991, 
I have been, I could have bought

669
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,840
a nice house by this point. 
I think the lawyers that I have 

670
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,320
hired just so I can have 
conversations about, you know, 

671
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,040
what the laws are, what other 
areas and businesses have 

672
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,800
similar case studies that you 
can share with me and what can 

673
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,360
we do? 
I've talked to companies about 

674
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,480
tagging and tracking photos. 
I mean, early on when I was a 

675
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:57,800
print model before there was AI,
they a client, a major brand 

676
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,080
that people know. 
I was doing all their swimsuit 

677
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:06,800
catalogs, and a year after my 
usage was paid for and wasn't my

678
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,840
job anymore, another designer 
found my body all throughout the

679
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,760
catalog with suits I never tried
on. 

680
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,920
And that was like a old 
fashioned kind of photoshopping.

681
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,720
And I was like, that's not me. 
I didn't do the job. 

682
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:21,080
I didn't wear that suit. 
And I wasn't even thinking like,

683
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,160
you could change it online, you 
know, this is like 1991 and you 

684
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,640
could do it then. 
It was a little more work, but 

685
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,880
she pointed out a beauty mark on
my body and I'm like looking. 

686
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,800
I'm like, she's put her on 
picture and like that isn't me. 

687
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,840
Anyway, we approached the 
company within a day or two that

688
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,240
all the bodies were changed 
because it was unrecognizable 

689
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:43,880
that that particular one. 
It was like like catalog showing

690
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,480
each style. 
So that was my first encounter 

691
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,360
with someone infringing on and 
not paying me for work that I 

692
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,120
did. 
And that's why I've stayed with 

693
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,280
it until now. 
And I'm glad you brought it up 

694
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,760
because there's the Fashion 
Workers Act. 

695
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,880
I'm not sure if you've heard 
about it or not that big in our 

696
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,880
industry and. 
I'm really grateful for all the 

697
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,680
people that are been so 
dedicated and worked so hard to 

698
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,360
bring a Fashion Workers Act to 
be law. 

699
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,960
It was signed in December. 
It goes into effect in June. 

700
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,760
And Sarah Ziff and Model 
Alliance, her advocacy group, 

701
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,360
brought that to the table with, 
I believe is Susan Scafidi, 

702
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,400
who's a professor at Fordham 
University. 

703
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:37,480
And the senator that brought it 
to the legislators was or is 

704
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,200
Brad Hoylman Siegel. 
So I commend all of them. 

705
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,080
It's just such a huge feat and 
undertaking, and they worked so 

706
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,280
hard to do it. 
And I'm happy there's a law. 

707
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,080
All the honorable managers that 
I know are happy about it. 

708
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,280
Models are happy about it, but I
have to tell you, I've been 

709
00:40:54,280 --> 00:41:00,080
talking to legislators directly 
also for the past two years as a

710
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,560
voice for the boutique model 
managers and also in 

711
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:08,200
conversations with a group of 
the major model managers and 

712
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,880
agencies. 
And I was bringing to light all 

713
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,320
of my experience because I was a
independent model without a 

714
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,160
manager. 
I was with the biggest agency in

715
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,320
the world and I manage models. 
I used to own brands, so he's a 

716
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,800
higher models. 
So I feel like, and I think the 

717
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,000
groups that I was talking 
everything like, well, you've 

718
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,400
kind of done most of what we're 
talking about here, like all the

719
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,560
stakeholders in this loss. 
So I really feel first hand the 

720
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,480
needs, the pain points and the 
benefits for each party involved

721
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,520
in this law. 
And I have to say I'm really 

722
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:50,840
disappointed in the law because 
it lacks clarity. 

723
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,760
Definitions are not accurate. 
They're putting huge burdens and

724
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,800
penalties on managers for things
that are out of their control. 

725
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:07,240
There is no, there's nothing 
said about timely payments. 

726
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:10,000
That's like the biggest, biggest
thing for me as a model. 

727
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,360
I think I was about five years 
in of model. 

728
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,240
I was modeling for five years at
this point and I got a negative 

729
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:20,880
$50,000 on my check in December 
on my statement. 

730
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,800
And I was like, what is this? 
And I thought up until that 

731
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,440
point, you know, I, I was one of
the top producers. 

732
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,120
I was a really successful model 
and I worked every day, all day,

733
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,480
all the time, morning till night
or the wee hours in the morning,

734
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,760
weekends a lot of times this 
negative $50,000 on my check. 

735
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,800
I thought it was a typo. 
I went to the manager and 

736
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,000
they're like, Nope, that's 
right. 

737
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,560
We didn't get paid for that. 
That was, you know, Barney's and

738
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,160
another big French, another 
company that they defaulted. 

739
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:55,640
They didn't pay. 
We closed the books. 

740
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,880
I was like, wait, how long was I
not paid? 

741
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,720
Because I back then the top 
models got advance money. 

742
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,200
Now it's impossible to advance 
the money. 

743
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:05,880
Like managers and agents 
couldn't stay in business 

744
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,360
because we're not finance 
companies. 

745
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,600
So I. 
I learned that happily and to 

746
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,760
that degree. 
It was quite shocking. 

747
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:18,560
So from that day on, literally I
would just listen to my messages

748
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,920
of where I was going to work 
tomorrow and like never talk to 

749
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,640
my book. 
Any call that I had time to make

750
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,400
to the management company was to
accounting department. 

751
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,640
And every time I would get a new
client I said OK. 

752
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,520
Who do they pay their bills? 
How are they paying? 

753
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:33,560
You know, they were my best 
friend. 

754
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,360
They knew me so well. 
And I would stick up for all the

755
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,320
models there, too because I was 
like, OK, listen, we're going to

756
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,960
be in solidarity here. 
They owe four other models at 

757
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,240
our company, our management 
company. 

758
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,320
Like you tell this big designer,
I'm not going until they pay 

759
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,680
everybody. 
So there were jobs that I turned

760
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,080
down. 
And then I learned I cherry 

761
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,880
picked all the accounts at that 
point because I went through 

762
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,920
everyone's finances. 
That's when I started like I was

763
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,640
always a business, business 
minded person that had 

764
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,120
businesses before I modeled. 
But then I really got into like 

765
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,880
the accounting side. 
I was like, this is ridiculous. 

766
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,160
Like they can't get away with 
this. 

767
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:13,640
And then there were there were 
jobs or clients that did go 

768
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:18,320
Chapter 11 or Chapter 7. 
And I would, if they had a 

769
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,880
store, I would tell them that 
I'm coming to the store and I'm 

770
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,600
taking two or three or four 
times the amount that you owe me

771
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,160
and clothes or something, you 
know, like I would just come up 

772
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,200
with the creative ways. 
I can't wonder with nothing. 

773
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,760
And there was a counter 2, not 
the big ones that I told you 

774
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,400
about, but there was a counter 2
that I went to them when my 

775
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,640
manager gave up and we worked 
out something where they were 

776
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:45,320
paid me slowly and maybe it 
wasn't in full, but I got 

777
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,240
something, you know, so, so I 
feel really strongly impassioned

778
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:53,160
about this with our models. 
I've, I've sat outside 

779
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,080
president's doors, like being a 
little too loud, probably. 

780
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,160
I've got some projection in my 
voice. 

781
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,800
And I was like, I'm not leaving.
So you pay true model 

782
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,360
management. 
You owe the models. 

783
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,280
Do you have to pay me? 
I have my mother like the car, 

784
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,880
the getaway, you know, I was 
just like, this is so not right.

785
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,520
So I was so excited for this 
law. 

786
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,040
Let me go, go back. 
I was so excited for this law 

787
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,720
because I'm like, oh, we'll get 
paid. 

788
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,400
The first draft of the bill, I 
believe it was had. 

789
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,720
Oh yeah, model managers will pay
in 30 days. 

790
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,080
We're like, we can't pay if 
we're not paid, if you're not 

791
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:23,520
paid. 
Exactly. 

792
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,680
We are, you know, our clients 
are the models and our clients 

793
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,040
are the brands and we're A-Team.
We all work together so. 

794
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:37,000
It's it's truly unbelievable 
when you see the 60 to 90 to 120

795
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,880
days on on payment. 
Unbelievable. 

796
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,680
And then if they pay and the way
you're then it goes through the 

797
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,480
modelling agency, you know, or 
the manager and then they want 

798
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,320
to make sure the check clear. 
Yeah, you know, So then then the

799
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,800
model pay before if they see it 
in four or five months. 

800
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,600
It's really, and it's crazy. 
No, it is ridiculous. 

801
00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:02,600
And absolutely by all means this
law is great because, you know, 

802
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,520
people who are the ones 
committing wrongdoings and 

803
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,880
breaking laws, they should be 
penalized and punished. 

804
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:16,080
But there are no enforcement 
protocols in it. 

805
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,120
And they're putting most of the 
the burdens and penalties I said

806
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:26,320
on the wrong on the wrong. 
Party, I mean, I have had 

807
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:34,200
multiple times where a hair care
company or different companies 

808
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,600
have used my image without 
permission. 

809
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,640
I've won. 
I've won three. 

810
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,440
Good for you. 
Claims for that but you have to 

811
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,400
I have a great lawyer for that 
fact. 

812
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,880
He's the top just won the top 
entertainment agency in 

813
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,920
Hollywood. 
So Robert Darwell, that's a plug

814
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,240
for you because I mean Shepard 
Mullen, yeah, I mean his team is

815
00:46:57,240 --> 00:47:04,320
unbelievable and he's been great
with you know, and but you know 

816
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,800
you have the expense you have to
put out you know you have to lay

817
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,360
out money to get the money that 
you were owed in the 1st place. 

818
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,040
You know when somebody steals 
your image and I just had one 

819
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,440
where someone took my face. 
Apple News and I don't mind 

820
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,320
saying Apple News right out 
because I'm livid about it 

821
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,240
there. 
And it was all my followers on 

822
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:25,440
social media that, you know, 
sending the notes. 

823
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,920
I got bombarded. 
Oh, can't believe it. 

824
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,520
You're the you're all over my 
Apple News today. 

825
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,720
You're all over my Apple News. 
Yeah, it's me in a car in a 

826
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:37,400
great Mustang that I've never 
been in, but it's absolutely me.

827
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,480
And you know, when I went and 
contacted my attorney on that, 

828
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,200
he said, well, you got to find 
your exact image that would show

829
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,680
that it was used. 
I'm like, I don't know what the 

830
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,240
exact image was, but everyone in
the world knows it's me in that 

831
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:58,280
ad and I was. 
It's not paid for it. 

832
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,000
It's not me. 
Someone cut and chopped my head 

833
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,120
into it. 
It's inferior. 

834
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,640
Thank you so much for bringing 
that up. 

835
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:09,520
And the topic was AI And now the
way I was envisioning it when 

836
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,600
they wanted to scan me and use 
my digital like this, like this 

837
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,320
is a great new revenue stream 
for models. 

838
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,080
This is going to enhance our 
business. 

839
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:21,880
Once a model can't work anymore,
they can just, you know, sell 

840
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,120
their likeness. 
And I've worked with many 

841
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,320
companies. 
I beta tested so many programs 

842
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:32,680
and been in the works with 
tagging and tracking. 

843
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,040
There's one company with a 
patent is pending and they're 

844
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,360
going to call me right when it 
comes through because I can't 

845
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,560
wait that we can track these. 
I have so many ideas of what we 

846
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,360
could do and work with the 
models, work with the clients. 

847
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,680
We only feel like sit together. 
So there are advocacy groups and

848
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,880
media, which is great to amplify
things, but I feel like they've 

849
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,560
been separating everyone and I 
just want to unite everyone to 

850
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,400
hear what everyone has to say. 
There's so many great ideas out 

851
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,280
there, not only my ideas. 
And I want everyone to be heard 

852
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,600
and really make a positive 
change together because the 

853
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,960
models, the managers, the 
brands, we're A-Team. 

854
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,320
You know, it's not like, oh, 
model against your manager, 

855
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,320
managers against your clients. 
It's like they need to see what 

856
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,280
we go through. 
And I think high levels, 

857
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,760
especially of brands don't 
understand the nuances in the 

858
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,080
inner workings of a models life 
of a manager's life. 

859
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,640
You know, we're just, we're just
little numbers on the page to 

860
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,280
most of them who are making the 
decision. 

861
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,800
So I would love to sit down with
some of the big brands and 

862
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,920
companies like Google and 
companies, you know, all the 

863
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,320
social media platforms and talk 
to them because this is what 

864
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,560
you're talking about, the 
tracking of the images. 

865
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,320
This happens to us every single 
day. 

866
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,440
And it's usually a model's 
friend or family or themselves 

867
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,920
saying, oh, I just saw a 
billboard of me. 

868
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,200
I just saw a hangtag of me in a 
store and wait, that was five 

869
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,280
years ago. 
It happened to us. 

870
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,480
I mean, it happens all the time.
But there was one particular 

871
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,240
story, a model that said, oh, 
I'm all over this one store that

872
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:04,800
I worked for five years ago. 
The usage was up three or more 

873
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:09,040
years ago. 
And one of the the things about 

874
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,880
our industry too is it's not 
like that client was the one to 

875
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,560
call our company to hire the 
model. 

876
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,000
It was the casting director who 
hired the production company, 

877
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,120
who hired A photographer who so 
it took us. 

878
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,120
So we talked about what I do all
day. 

879
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,040
That's one of the things it took
me a year. 

880
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,320
It took me the year to track 
down this one job. 

881
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,240
When we finally got to the level
of the brand, and it's a major 

882
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,520
brand, everybody knows this one.
They were like, oh, OK, yes, an 

883
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,240
oversight or whatever it was. 
There's your check for five 

884
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:42,560
years of usage. 
Great. 

885
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,320
But that's one in how many jobs 
per day? 

886
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:47,840
And it's like you have to catch 
them. 

887
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,800
And I'm going through that every
single day more and more and 

888
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,280
more. 
So that's a lot of what I do 

889
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,560
every day actually, and is with 
this AI because it's, it'll be 

890
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,280
so incredible if it was ethical 
practices and there was 

891
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,720
transparency. 
And you know, I suggested to 

892
00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:06,840
some clients, can you please 
just send us the final image or 

893
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,720
just raw pictures of everything 
you took of that model like we 

894
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:12,480
know you? 
Often don't see the final 

895
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,040
language you never. 
Know it's are you using it or 

896
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:16,480
not I. 
Never know what's going to 

897
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:17,800
appear. 
I can never see. 

898
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,680
Always someone who points out, 
but Oh my gosh, we could keep 

899
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,320
going. 
Oh yeah, out of time. 

900
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,520
Oh really? 
And this I know the time wise 

901
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,200
when we're having fun, but 
really this is a topic I would 

902
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,680
love to explore. 
Yeah, because I think so much 

903
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,120
stuff. 
Drill down in it. 

904
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,720
Yeah, yeah. 
And I would love to. 

905
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,400
And I think you're a great 
spokesperson for it because 

906
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,480
you've been through every aspect
in the industry and you you 

907
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,720
really understand what's at 
stake and the costs and the, and

908
00:51:47,720 --> 00:51:49,520
the chain. 
Yeah, of. 

909
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,120
Where that money's getting lost.
Yes, yes, yes. 

910
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,000
And not just the money. 
Yeah. 

911
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,080
And so my biggest thing is I 
really want to unite the fashion

912
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,000
industry, the model, especially 
right now, it's really urgent 

913
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,200
that the models, the managers 
and the advocacy groups and the 

914
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,040
brands and the lawyers, the 
legislators, like we all come 

915
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,600
together. 
That's why I started putting 

916
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,480
together some sessions. 
I'll be speaking at Berkeley 

917
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,040
College. 
I talked to Berkeley College. 

918
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,400
So May 8th, we're having a whole
discussion to try and push this 

919
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,280
forward, maybe make some 
amendments to the Fashion 

920
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:23,480
Workers Act. 
And you know, we want to invite 

921
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,720
everyone so everyone could 
really be educated because I 

922
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:30,040
feel like there's a lack of 
education in our industry. 

923
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,360
And the more educated you are 
and the more people you bring 

924
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,320
together, the more ideas and the
better we can make in the world.

925
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,320
Well, thank you so much, Dale. 
This was such a good 

926
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,360
conversation. 
I've been talking with Dale 

927
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,960
Noel. 
She is the founder of True Model

928
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,720
Management. 
Thank you so much for all your 

929
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:52,040
insight, the education, your 
knowledge and your energy. 

930
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:54,240
Thank you, Diane, I'm so happy 
to be here. 

931
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:55,800
Can't wait to continue the 
conversation. 

932
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,520
Yes, same here. 
I'm Diane Grissell, the Spin the

933
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,320
Silver Disobedience podcast 
we're recording at iconic 

934
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:04,960
Manhattan Center and I want to 
thank you for watching. 

935
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:09,120
All of Dale's information is 
going to be below this podcast. 

936
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,440
So you can follow her, you can 
get in touch, you can pay 

937
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,920
attention to all the good things
she's doing and cause a bunch of

938
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,040
links will be there to find her.
And please hit subscribe and 

939
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,280
share this with your friends. 
I'm sure they're going to want 

940
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:22,720
to know all about this episode.