1 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,560 Welcome back to the Decipher Podcast. 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,880 I'm Dennis Fisher and Lindsay O'Donnell Welch is here with me 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,960 today. And Linds, we're going to talk 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,920 about RSA Conference, which is next week as we're recording 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,640 this, one of our favorite and least favorite times of the 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,360 year. It's coming up quick. 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,600 Yep, it. Is it jumps out at you, 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,240 especially for you who has been on maternity leave for several 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,520 months and completely disconnected from all of this 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,640 nonsense? I know, yeah, I'm definitely 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,560 going to be catching up on some of the sessions. 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,960 And I feel like it's going to be just jumping straight into the 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,640 straight into things just, you know, after a couple months of 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,400 being fully, you know, in the loop with just a baby, so. 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,120 Yeah, you're not actually going. I'm going. 16 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,440 And I was trying to think of, like, how jarring it would be 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,040 for you if you ended your maternity leave on Friday and, 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,080 like, got on a plane Monday morning and just went to San 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,360 Francisco for RSA. I feel like you might have some 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,560 sort of mild, you know, disassociative episode or 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,760 something. I think it would be very 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,040 shocking. It would. 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,720 Very shocking. Yeah, it's shocking anyway, just 24 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,800 like even for people like us, because like as soon as you get 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,080 off the plane at SFO, it's just like billboards for random 26 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,600 security companies you've never heard of. 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,880 And it's just like in your face all the time. 28 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,720 Like even if you try to avoid it and go outside of like the 29 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:44,480 Moscone area, there's just like way MO's and billboards and you 30 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,240 know, random walking around St. performers, they're trying to 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,960 get you to go to some booth. Yeah, I know. 32 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,600 I was thinking the other day like the first time I went to 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,720 RSA, which was, you know, many years ago. 34 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,760 Not as many as you know when you first went, but ranking. 35 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,600 For that, yeah. It was just like completely eye 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,440 opening because I, I had just started in the cybersecurity 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,680 world and so going to San Francisco and seeing, you know, 38 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,680 walking in the exhibition booth area, it's like, what is going 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,240 on? Yeah. 40 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,000 Was that the first big security conference that you went to or 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,760 did you go to blackout before? That was the first Big 1 I 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,080 actually like. Within my first month I went to 43 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:36,400 Security analyst Summit SAS, which was also very much being 44 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,000 thrown into things, but. Yeah. 45 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:42,720 So that was nice to go to that one first and then go to RSA 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,240 after. Which one? 47 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,640 Which SAS was that? What was it? 48 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,200 I think the one in Mexico was in Cancun I think. 49 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,640 Oh, in Cancun like 2018? Yeah, 20/18/2017. 50 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,200 Oh, that's, yeah, 'cause that's right. 51 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:05,080 When we launched Decipher and Famita and I were both there. 52 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,560 Yeah. It was like, I think it was the 53 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,240 week we launched Decipher or the week after. 54 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,720 That is so funny. Yeah, that's wild. 55 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,360 That's I can't believe that's your first security conference. 56 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,680 You're like, this is great. I love cybersecurity. 57 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:21,960 Let's go to Cancun. Yeah. 58 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,000 I was like, I don't know what is going on, but I'm I love it. 59 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,480 That must have been so jarring. I can only imagine because SAS 60 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:37,600 itself is like relatively small, but and by design it was 61 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,720 relatively small. And it was almost everyone knew 62 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,680 every like we all knew each other for a very long time. 63 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,880 So you must have been like, oh, shit, like the kid walking into 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,360 the cafeteria in high school. You're like, I don't know these 65 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,320 people it. Was exactly like that, yeah. 66 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,360 And like it was, you know, if anyone's gone, they know this. 67 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,080 But like, it's a very much like everyone sticks together like 68 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,520 you get on buses to go to like. So it was really, I mean, I 69 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,520 thought it was awesome to be able to, you know, it was like 70 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:10,160 forced, like, like socialization and like getting into things. 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,840 And also the sessions were pretty technical as well. 72 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:19,680 So, you know, that was definitely something that was 73 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,480 jarring to, you know, first get into my, like, first or second 74 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:24,400 week on the job. Yeah. 75 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,280 It's so technical. I just remember like the years 76 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:33,600 when I worked at Threat Poster Kaspersky and was like one of 77 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:39,280 the like doing session hosting duties and like introducing, you 78 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:43,720 know, cost in or Jags or somebody giving some insane talk 79 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,480 or like marked out or somebody. And I'm just like, all right, 80 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,520 here comes the smart guy. I'll see you guys later. 81 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:49,840 I'm going to go to the back of the room. 82 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:52,320 You're just yeah, it's yeah, it was deep. 83 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,640 Yeah, but I like that conference because like you could go up to 84 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,160 the researchers and just talk to them and be like, hey, I don't 85 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,080 really like what do you, what do you mean about this or whatever? 86 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,480 Whereas at RSA or Black Hat, like, you know, it's a little 87 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,680 more like people will finish up their sessions or their keynotes 88 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,520 and then there's just a line of people wanting to talk to them. 89 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,400 So. But yeah, anyways, I'll be 90 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,800 missing RSA this year but. But I wouldn't say I'm missing 91 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,760 it, Bob. Yeah, Yeah, I know what you 92 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,400 mean. It's the, I've said it before on 93 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:31,040 this podcast, but the first time I went was 2001 and I had just 94 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,440 started covering security, which back then didn't really even 95 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,920 register on like the tech press radar at all. 96 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,440 And if for people that have been to RSA recently, you know, it's 97 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,400 like 3 parts, it's all of Moscone. 98 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,320 Like they literally built another part of Moscone for 99 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,400 large conferences like RSA and Salesforce or whatever. 100 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:58,280 But the first few times that I went O1, it was 1/2 of Moscone. 101 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:02,080 It, you know, and it there weren't nearly enough exhibitors 102 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,960 to take up even that exhibition hall because it was like it was 103 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,360 pre 911. So there wasn't like that huge 104 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:15,720 like uptick in security, you know, stuff and there just 105 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,720 wasn't, there weren't that many security companies there like 106 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,320 RSA, the company was maybe the biggest one. 107 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,760 It probably was the biggest one at the time, you know, and they 108 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,680 were selling like encryption software and they probably had 109 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,840 their hardware tokens at that point, but maybe even didn't 110 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:37,120 have those. And there was like, I don't 111 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,280 know, 100 other security companies if that. 112 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,560 It was crazy. What, so, you know, back then, 113 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,840 what kind of things were they, what were like the main topics 114 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:51,400 of discussion that were being discussed? 115 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,200 And like, you know, you look at the, you know, some of the 116 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,360 keynotes and sessions for this year in the past few years and 117 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,440 I'd imagine it's completely different. 118 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,720 It was very much a cryptography conference then, like crypto in 119 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,360 the cryptography sense. It was very much that like, I 120 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,320 don't, I honestly don't think it's there this year. 121 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,080 The cryptographers panel, which I think this is, I didn't see it 122 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,000 unless I miss it, it's not on there. 123 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,400 Maybe it's just a normal session instead of a keynote. 124 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,520 But the last, you know, 20 years or whatever, the cryptographers 125 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,080 panel was, you know, some combination of like Wit, Diffie, 126 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,880 Addy Shamir, Bruce Schneider, you know, a few, you know, Paul 127 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,960 Kocher, other people like that, pioneers, you know, pioneering 128 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,560 cryptographers. And it was always really cool. 129 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,440 I would go to that. You went sometimes like we kind 130 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:45,920 of look at each other, like I don't really know what they're 131 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,760 talking about, but this is cool seeing like the guys that 132 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,360 invented this shit up there. But yeah, those first few that I 133 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,920 went to were extremely cryptography focused and it was 134 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,000 all about like there was a lot of digital rights management 135 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,520 stuff back then. Like how are we going to protect 136 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:08,120 like video and audio content, which obviously nobody ever 137 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:13,080 figured out. And but a lot of it was just 138 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:17,600 like it was still not that long after like the first crypto wars 139 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,680 between, you know, like about weakening encryption by default 140 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,960 for government use and that sort of stuff. 141 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,680 So there was a lot of that kind of thing going on and it was 142 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,520 just a very small like clubby group. 143 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,440 You know, I can, I can vividly remember that the the first time 144 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,360 I went going to pick up my badge and Bruce Schneider was standing 145 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,760 just happened to be at the registration desk. 146 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,480 And I interviewed him a few times over the phone and I 147 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,440 introduced myself. And, you know, he was like, oh, 148 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,440 it's great to meet you. You know, I'm doing a book 149 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,200 signing or something like tomorrow you should come. 150 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,480 That was 25 years ago. Literally it was 2001. 151 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,560 So yeah, very crazy. And then the next year, which 152 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:07,360 was 2002, like very soon after 911, they had it in San Jose and 153 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,680 it was really, really small, like I think fewer than 2000 154 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:16,120 people there. Like really, really small. 155 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,680 Like now there's 2000 people at like the West Bar on like 156 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,400 Tuesday afternoon. You. 157 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:31,080 Know yeah was the like I feel like part of the shift that I've 158 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,280 noticed over the years too is like there's a lot more 159 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,560 executives and a lot more discussion around kind of you 160 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:43,040 know like strategy and risk and things like that. 161 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:48,200 Like what was more of the, what was kind of like the the base of 162 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,200 people that were going back then? 163 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,360 Like was it? It was, yeah. 164 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,320 I'd imagine or. There was a very technical 165 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,320 crowd, like the mathematician cryptography crowd that I just 166 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,120 described. Like that's that wasn't then and 167 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,480 it's still not now a very big group of people. 168 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,800 You know, you could sort of identify all of them and like 169 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,480 throw a blanket over them. You know, there might be like 30 170 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:18,440 of them total, those folks. And then there were the other 171 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,000 sort of like engineers and developers that were building 172 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,080 products. Like those people would go, 173 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,360 which there's not that many of these days. 174 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:34,760 You know, these days it's much more like practitioners who pay 175 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:41,880 $4000 to go or whatever. So many marketers and execs and 176 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,840 product managers and those kind of people. 177 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,040 It's much more of, you know, of a sales carnival than it is and 178 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,640 acts, there's still a lot of technical content there, but 179 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,640 it's you have to sort of go out of your way to go and find it. 180 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,720 And those sessions get, you know, sold out pretty or not 181 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,120 sold out, but full quickly. And a lot of times it's really 182 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,400 hard to get into them. They used to hold seats for 183 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,480 media in those in a lot of those sessions. 184 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:09,920 They don't. They don't even do that anymore, 185 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,960 even at keynotes. It's hard. 186 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,200 For us to get in there, yeah, it's weird. 187 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,120 I know, I'd imagine looking at so if you look at the agenda for 188 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,720 this year, and this is also what I've seen in previous years, but 189 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,040 you can they show you can basically break it down by 190 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,320 different types of topics and the amount of topics is just 191 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,400 insane and really goes to show how much, you know, cyber 192 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,040 security, just how how big it's become over the years. 193 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,200 I mean, they have like everything from critical 194 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:52,480 infrastructure to IoT to obviously AI and identity and 195 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,400 you know, risk management and you know, CSO track and 196 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,600 everything. So it's just crazy how you know, 197 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,360 I'd imagine for you like seeing it go from this kind of smaller 198 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:09,280 cryptography focus conference to just the breath now that it 199 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,240 covers is is wild. It is, yeah. 200 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,240 I mean, it used to be small enough that there was one track 201 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,480 called hackers and threats like that. 202 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,600 That was just a track, you know, and it and it that was the one 203 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,520 that all the like researchers that we know would, that's where 204 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,880 they would submit if they were speaking at or trying to speak 205 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,400 at RSA. And those would always be like 206 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,240 really good technical talks about like, you know, some 207 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:40,840 breakthrough in, you know, crypt analysis or things like that, or 208 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,520 sometimes even bug releases, you know, vulnerability disclosures 209 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,040 and things like that. But now it's like, I mean, I, I 210 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,680 wouldn't didn't count it, but there must be 30 or 40 separate 211 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,160 things. And now, you know, the keynotes 212 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,680 are essentially marketing presentations. 213 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,000 You know, it happened for many years. 214 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:06,600 Like, although maybe I don't know if Bill, yeah, Bill Gates 215 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:13,440 did a couple RSA keynotes when security was a big thing for 216 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,840 Microsoft or one of the times it was becoming a big thing for 217 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,000 Microsoft. I, I think I'm remembering that 218 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,600 right. But lots of Microsoft execs and 219 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,840 IBM execs and you know, Cisco execs. 220 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,360 Our friend Wendy did one a few years ago, which was very cool, 221 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:38,040 of course, because she's Wendy. But yeah, most of them now are. 222 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,560 They're just handed to the diamond level sponsors or 223 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:43,360 whatever the top level sponsorship is. 224 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,680 You get a keynote and that's the way it works, which is, you 225 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,400 know, that's how commerce works. And some of them are decent. 226 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,840 They'll have some decent stuff in them, but most of them are 227 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,080 just kind of like rah rah. Yeah, well, and one other just 228 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,440 before we look at the tracks and topics, but one other thing 229 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,240 that's interesting too, I've noticed over the years is, you 230 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,800 know, you mentioned that, you know, a lot of times there would 231 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,760 be some sort of breakthrough. I really haven't seen, you know, 232 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,720 the past few years any sort of like actual news or like major 233 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,440 vulnerabilities coming out of this conference just from the, 234 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,240 the media perspective, It's it's been very different. 235 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:26,400 I remember back in like 2017 or 2018 or where like you could get 236 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,440 some good, good, you know some good research coming out of this 237 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,520 conference. But it's definitely more in my 238 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,400 opinion focused on kind of the networking and the sales and 239 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,440 that aspect of. Things and there's you're 240 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,200 exactly right about that there. I can remember at least two 241 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,760 different cryptographers panels where Addy Shamir specifically 242 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,520 like he used to come and on that panel, like he doesn't speak 243 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,680 publicly ever aside from this basically. 244 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,120 And he would come and be like, OK, here's my year in review of 245 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,320 cryptographic breakthroughs. And like at least two or three 246 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:09,080 times there was he would just like drop information about some 247 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,840 new cryptographic breakthrough, like somebody had broken an 248 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,600 algorithm or a cipher or something on that panel. 249 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,040 And you know, I would always like go and talk to those guys 250 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,920 afterwards and be like, did you say what I think you said here? 251 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,280 Like, Oh yeah, yes, you know, we figured this out or whatever 252 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,920 because it's math. It's like 40 millennia beyond my 253 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,800 understanding. You're just like, I just want to 254 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,960 make sure I have this correct. But aside from that, now it's 255 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,040 more like, you know, which we do by default anyway, go and set up 256 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,960 those one-on-one interviews with people we think are interesting. 257 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,560 And hopefully, you know, whether it's hard news or just like an 258 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:51,520 interesting story that, you know, you get from somebody that 259 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,880 you know, is doing cool stuff or has interesting thoughts on the 260 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,840 direction that, you know, say AI is going, which is 99% of 261 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,120 everything that I've gotten this year in terms of pitches. 262 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,680 And you know, a lot of it is hand WAVY crap, as you would 263 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,240 expect, but some of it is actually kind of interesting. 264 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,000 You know, there's people using AI for different things, but a 265 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,440 lot of it is like we're debuting the first AI enabled like SIM 266 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,720 console. And I'm like, no, you're not 267 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,480 because I've gotten 42 emails that say that exact same thing. 268 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:27,840 So you guys need to talk to each other. 269 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:29,720 I don't know what. I don't know who told you you 270 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,640 were debuting anything, but you're not the first ones. 271 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:38,720 Yeah, and AAI enabled AI powered AI first. 272 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,280 Yep, seeing a lot of terms. So much of that, which is, you 273 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,760 know, that's just the way these things go. 274 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,720 It's cyclical. You know, it was, that's, that's 275 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,320 just what it is. But there's also like so many, 276 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,600 this has turned into like the South by Southwest situation 277 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,520 where there's a bunch of smaller satellite events around it. 278 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:03,000 Like besides SF and a bunch of VCs have conferences during RSA 279 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,640 week. I got an invitation yesterday. 280 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:14,440 The European Union is having an invite only event during RSA 281 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:19,240 week to talk about like regulations like and stuff. 282 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,760 I can't go to it. But I was like, I was really 283 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,040 surprised. It was like, this is OK, Yeah, 284 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,599 cool. Like a whole bunch of EU 285 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,520 delegates are coming to do this thing that's. 286 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,440 Really interesting, yeah. Yeah, it's quite not something 287 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,520 you normally see, you know, during this this week. 288 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,240 Yeah, well, what's interesting about that too is, you know, I I 289 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,480 noticed that there were a lot of there were some speakers from 290 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,880 other governments, like the UK government has a a ton of a 291 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:57,880 couple people, handful I thought I saw like United Arab Emirates 292 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,960 or something like maybe someone from there as well, just random. 293 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,760 So, you know, I feel like it is and I know like so they have 294 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:14,120 something in Europe that's similar to RSA. 295 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,120 I know they have. Infosec, Yeah. 296 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,040 Yeah, so. London, right? 297 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,920 I went to that once, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I've gone to that 298 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,920 once as well. So I don't know like you know 299 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,920 the logistics of meeting up at RSA in the US versus there, but 300 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,960 like I thought that was that's interesting as well. 301 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,800 It is. And there's, we were talking 302 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,240 about this before we started recording. 303 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,000 There's not that I saw. I may have missed it. 304 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,280 I didn't read every session description or every speaker 305 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,280 name. I don't recall seeing any U.S. 306 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,880 government speakers this year, which is a sharp contrast from 307 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,840 the past few years where either, you know, Jenny Easterly when 308 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,160 she was at SISA, spoke several years in a row. 309 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,480 Other SISA officials have Chris Krebs, you know, a few times. 310 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,520 And just other, you know, government officials, whether 311 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,200 they were from DoD or other parts of DHS or Energy or 312 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,480 whatever it happened to be, people from Cyber Command have 313 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,720 spoken. I just, I didn't see any this 314 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,240 year. And I think there's probably a 315 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,480 few reasons for that, but it's an interesting kind of data 316 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,920 point that they're not there. I'm sure they're there, but 317 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,480 they're not speaking. Not publicly speaking, yeah, 318 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,360 yeah, I think I saw like a couple like former like Cyber 319 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,440 Command types of role, you know, people. 320 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,960 But like, yeah, like you're saying, no one who actually 321 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,360 currently works that I that I could see, at least for the US 322 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:50,640 government. And the US government also has a 323 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,160 interesting past, I think more so with Black Hat, but with our 324 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,400 conferences as well. So, so I always look, I always 325 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,000 kind of look for those types of sessions too, because it's, it's 326 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,160 funny how it works out. Yeah, there used to be and and 327 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,280 maybe there still is. Again, I didn't read every 328 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,120 session description. There were very often you would 329 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:16,680 see mathematicians or cryptographers from NSA speak at 330 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,440 this conference to talk about, you know, either research that 331 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,640 they've been doing or things are collaborating on with the 332 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,600 private sector or just like where they see like post quantum 333 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,440 cryptography going, you know, big bigger picture things. 334 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,560 I didn't see any of that this year either. 335 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,880 So I don't know if there was just sort of a we're not 336 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,640 approving travel to to RSA or I don't know what the the case 337 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,960 was. Yeah, I, I looking at the 338 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,600 topics, like, was there anything that stuck out to you that, you 339 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,120 know, you were excited to go see this year? 340 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,040 Like I saw a couple of interesting things, but a lot of 341 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,120 it was kind of standard and par for the course. 342 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,160 Yeah. Let me hear the ones that kind 343 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,640 of that drew your interest. There's there's a few that I'm 344 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,440 that I have on my calendar that are pretty interesting to me. 345 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,480 Yeah, I think, well, so obviously we're talking about 346 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,680 Wendy earlier. Obviously when I saw that Wendy 347 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:20,600 and Bob Lord are talking, they're doing something about 348 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,400 learning from near misses and cybersecurity, which, you know, 349 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,080 I think that's going to be really interesting just because, 350 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,080 you know, both of those people obviously have been in the 351 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,000 industry and know what they're talking about. 352 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,560 But then also just the topic itself is something that's not 353 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,320 really discussed a fair amount. Kind of the idea of near misses 354 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,320 I thought was interesting. Very true. 355 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,000 Yeah, that looks very cool to me. 356 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,080 I was talking to her about that yesterday. 357 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,280 We recorded a different podcast on the movie The Martian, that 358 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,760 it's up now. Actually, you guys should go 359 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,880 listen to that. But I think I'm going to a 360 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,040 different session while she's doing that one. 361 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,760 But yeah, that sounds great. I mean, Wendy is one of the 362 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,800 smartest and like most experienced people in this 363 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,800 industry. And Bob Lord is for people that 364 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,080 don't know, is that Mozilla? He was at a bunch of different 365 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:18,800 places, the DNC, and is like one of the most no nonsense, like no 366 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:24,800 BS people about security that you know, he will be more than 367 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,280 happy to poke holes in your favorite, like, myth or, you 368 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:33,240 know, whatever it had theory or whatever it is. 369 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:35,600 Yeah, that should be really good. 370 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,720 A couple that I've got on my calendar, there's one on Tuesday 371 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:47,800 morning that is on commercial spyware on iOS and the speaker 372 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,200 is I apologize in advance for mispronouncing his name. 373 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,920 Matthias Friedlingsdorf. I think I got close. 374 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,920 He's one of the Co founders of I Verify, which, you know, is a, 375 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,560 you know, no free ads, but it's a very cool little tool kit for 376 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,480 iOS that essentially looks at your phone on a continuous basis 377 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,480 and says like, are you up to date on iOS? 378 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,400 You know, do you have this enabled? 379 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,080 Do you have that enabled? It's great. 380 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,280 There's a free version. In any case, they do a lot of 381 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,320 research on, you know, the mercenary spyware space. 382 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,480 And actually in the last two weeks, they've been part of the 383 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:35,360 publication of those iOS exploit kits that have come out, one 384 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,760 called Koruna. And there was another one they 385 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,920 just put out today. I haven't actually read it yet, 386 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:47,120 but another one that leaked that looks like it's linked to some 387 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:49,400 Russian, Russian threat actor as well. 388 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:55,440 So, you know, along with Citizen Lab and a couple of other 389 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:00,080 entities, they're one of the the groups that does this commercial 390 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:07,120 spyware research, which again is like the grossest subcategory of 391 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,840 our of our industry. Yeah. 392 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,240 Yeah, but that's, that's going to be a fascinating especially 393 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,520 because and we wrote about this last week or the week before, 394 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:22,200 but the fact that spy Ware vendors are so prolific now and 395 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,480 that I think it was Google came out with a report that said that 396 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:32,480 they are using 0 days that they attract more than you know at 397 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,200 this point state sponsored surveillance vendors. 398 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,760 So that's great. It's, it's really interesting 399 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:43,000 how how much those types of companies have moved forward and 400 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,280 that's definitely a good session to keep an eye on. 401 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,920 Yeah, that should be interesting. 402 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,960 You don't. I'm sure it'll be kind of 403 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,560 depressing too, like in the geopolitical sense, but what 404 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,480 isn't these days? Yes, I know. 405 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,760 Different. This one's a little, you know, 406 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,680 kind of related a little bit, but another one that was 407 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,280 interesting to me was the hack back one hack back session, it's 408 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,960 called hack back is a distraction scaling active cyber 409 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,960 defense. And that's essentially a session 410 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,200 that brings together a couple of different people, including Joe 411 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:27,120 Levy, CEO of SOFOS and Susanna say more who's with coalition 412 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:32,560 and a couple of other people talking about the, you know, 413 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:38,240 kind of how hack backs work, but then also what they kind of mean 414 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,680 in terms of legal implications, operational implications. 415 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,040 You know, this is it's obviously a really controversial type of 416 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,840 topic in the cybersecurity space. 417 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,200 So I'm, I'm always kind of drawn to those types of conversations 418 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,560 because I do think that it warrants a conversation. 419 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,200 So. Yeah, yeah. 420 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,120 And there's been a bunch of, because the White House 421 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,760 cybersecurity strategy that just came out a couple weeks ago has 422 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,440 some predictably vague language about doing that kind of thing 423 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:17,520 and enabling private sector operators to, you know, run 424 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,680 offensive operations. That's a conversation that's 425 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,680 happened for a very long time in this industry. 426 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,520 And it, yeah, it's a very heated discussion all the time. 427 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:34,760 But I've always kind of come down on the side of like that if 428 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,560 we're going to start enabling private sector operators to do 429 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,480 this kind of thing, you're opening a pretty large can of 430 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,200 worms that could lead to a really large pile of unintended 431 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,000 consequences. You know, our adversaries 432 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,920 already do this, whether it's explicitly or just hands off. 433 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,400 We we're not going to bother you if you're doing it. 434 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,000 If we start doing that and they, you know, other countries are 435 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,720 like, oh, OK, really, then, you know, we could have all kinds of 436 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,920 problems. Yeah, I can. 437 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,040 I'm I'm sure there's some sort of like trickle down effect as 438 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,040 well. And yeah, it's kind of a hairy 439 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,200 situation. I I hadn't seen that. 440 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,920 Well, I had heard about the White House new kind of 441 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,840 statement about cybersecurity. Kind of is the right yeah 442 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,960 modifier there. I hadn't looked into it too much 443 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,600 being on leave, but that's really interesting that, you 444 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,720 know, kind of the vague terminology around hack back in 445 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,240 that and I wonder if they'll talk about, you know, that as 446 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,040 well. Oh, I think so. 447 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,920 I mean, this is just the kind of, yeah, it's the very broad 448 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,320 outline thing. It's not the detailed strategy. 449 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,840 And it's exactly what you would expect, you know, from any other 450 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,920 White House cybersecurity strategy you've read from any 451 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,600 administration. Honestly, it's, you know, public 452 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,480 private partnerships, protect critical infrastructure, enable 453 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,800 the new generation of cybersecurity leaders, all of 454 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,160 that. The classic White House 455 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,400 cybersecurity statement Bingo card 100. 456 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,600 Percent. You could have written it, you 457 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,040 know, at any point. So could I. 458 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,080 It's there's, there's nothing original in there. 459 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,160 It's just, you know, kind of lather, rinse, repeat. 460 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:28,240 But yeah, yeah, so another one that I was, I'm not sure that 461 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,080 I'll actually go to this, but it's interesting. 462 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,920 We mentioned Jenny Easterly earlier. 463 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,760 She's doing one of the keynotes. She's not the main speaker. 464 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:42,120 I guess she in this case is sort of the interviewer and the her 465 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,920 guest has like 9 titles. The former Prime Minister of New 466 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,400 Zealand, if I'm reading this right, the right Honorable Dame 467 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,560 Jacinda Ardern. I hope I got that right, 468 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,320 Jacinda. But it's a, the session is on 469 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,880 empathetic leadership, which sounds interesting to me. 470 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,960 You know, obviously not a very technical topic, but it's sort 471 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,480 of to me fits in with a lot of the things that Jen used to talk 472 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,960 about when she was at Sisa is sort of, you know, she would 473 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,600 talk a lot about technical things, but she would also talk 474 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,920 about more, you know, non-technical topics like that, 475 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,920 that I think it could be really interesting. 476 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:28,920 Oh, there we go. Sorry. 477 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,440 Oh, come on, This is what this is what I've been waiting for. 478 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,000 So yeah, I'll, I'll check that out. 479 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,000 It's not like a newsy session, obviously, but you know, Jen's 480 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,000 smart and I assume this her her guest is smart as well. 481 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,640 So it could be entertaining. Yeah, yeah, I it's always good 482 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,400 to hear from from her as well. And you know, there I noticed 483 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,560 there were there were actually, I mean, this is interesting to 484 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,040 me and probably you as well, just as people writing about, 485 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,480 you know, more technical things. But there there was another type 486 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,040 of session that was talking about kind of communication with 487 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:17,000 non-technical professionals. And that one was by, let's see, 488 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,720 Rebecca Grapsey with Ford and Kevin O'Connor with Anibal. 489 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:26,520 So those, those always stick out to me as well because I think 490 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,800 that's a really difficult part that our of our industry that a 491 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,680 lot of people deal with is trying to get that gap close the 492 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,480 gap between kind of the more technical types of information. 493 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,040 And then how do you translate that for people across the other 494 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,480 parts of the business org or even just consumers, honestly? 495 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,640 Yeah. I mean, that's essentially what 496 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,400 we've spent our careers trying to do. 497 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,280 Yeah, you know. It's hard. 498 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,640 I mean, yeah, it's. Really hard, especially for 499 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,960 people like us who are, you know, not trained engineers. 500 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,640 We're, you know, English majors. So we're just kind of like 501 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,520 trying to take it as, you know, talk to smart people and then 502 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,240 translate what they tell us. Yeah, exactly. 503 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:14,480 It's. Fine. 504 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:20,160 Yeah, it's fun times. But one other one that I also 505 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,840 thought was interesting too is Inside the Hunt for China's 506 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,000 Typhoons. I don't know. 507 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,960 Yeah, just with everything going on with the Salt Typhoon and old 508 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,120 typhoon and all the typhoons over the over the years and 509 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,840 just, you know, obviously on the heels of last year, but I think 510 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:46,840 it was 2020, end of 2024, the whole salt typhoon revelations 511 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,680 about how they basically been in our critical infrastructure for 512 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,600 many, many months, if not. As long as they wanted to be, 513 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,920 yeah. Yeah. 514 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,280 So that one that's. Good. 515 00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:58,920 It does. Yeah. 516 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,240 That whole part of the the world is fascinating to me. 517 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,280 And I don't mean geographically, I mean like the critical 518 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,640 infrastructure and those threat groups that are specifically 519 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,920 tasked with, you know, pre positioning themselves in the 520 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,200 critical infrastructure of whatever the adversary nation 521 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,640 is. We have those groups too. 522 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,840 And hopefully they're doing their job. 523 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,360 But we know that the typhoons are doing their job 524 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,360 unfortunately. And given the current 525 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,720 geopolitical climate, I would assume that Iranian actors or 526 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,120 doing the same thing. Yeah, definitely, for sure, 527 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,440 although a little different from the Typhoon side of their 528 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,040 strategy and operations. But yeah, that's something I 529 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:50,080 didn't see too much about, kind of that the current events and 530 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,600 Iran and whatnot. No, I think it was a little too 531 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,200 late. You know, the, the RSA 532 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,760 Commission, the talks emission is months and months ago. 533 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,200 I don't remember what the deadline is, but you know, it 534 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,920 was certainly last year. So yeah, I think that it's a 535 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,480 little too soon. But I, I imagine this summer at 536 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,760 Blackhat and DEFCON there will be a whole bunch of that stuff 537 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,680 with like here's what we found, you know, in this operation or 538 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,480 that kind of thing, right? You know, I would, I would 539 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,000 anticipate a bunch of that so. Yeah, yeah. 540 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,280 And then the only other thing I just wanted to mention too that 541 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,160 I that I saw was, I think you mentioned this as well earlier 542 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,520 in the podcast, but I mean, obviously there was a lot of AI. 543 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,000 But what I've I've noticed just looking over and you know, 544 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,920 looking over the different sessions and whatnot, it seems 545 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,320 like there is a little bit of like moving from like looking at 546 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:53,800 tools to actually how AI is being implemented in the cyber 547 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,720 specific. Workforce. 548 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,080 So like red teaming, how can AI be utilized and what are the 549 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,040 barriers? I think there's a little bit of 550 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,360 a practical approach to, you know, how it's actually being 551 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,800 implemented as opposed to kind of the hype. 552 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,800 There is. And you know, the sock and 553 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,960 everything else. So anyways, I thought that was 554 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,400 that was something that stuck out to me as well when I was 555 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,920 looking at through the agenda for. 556 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,679 This there's a yeah, you're right, there's a bunch of, you 557 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:25,440 know, AI red teaming, whether it's using AI as part of a pen 558 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:31,400 test or red teaming against AI models and things like that. 559 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,400 There's, you know, there's so many different portions of this 560 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,320 thing. But yeah, you're right, there is 561 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:41,159 some of that implementation and how are we actually using these 562 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,560 tools rather than AI is here to save the world? 563 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:49,199 There's still plenty of that, but there's there's some actual 564 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,239 practical content too. Right. 565 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,719 Yeah, that makes sense. All right, I know you're you got 566 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,000 to go, but before I let you go, I I just sprung this on you. 567 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:05,680 Before we started recording, I had this idea of reading some 568 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,640 names to you and you would decide guess whether it's a 569 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,400 prescription drug or an RSA exhibitor. 570 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,760 Which I love. This just came to me while I was 571 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,600 watching some baseball game over the weekend probably. 572 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,040 So we'll just do a few before you have to go do things. 573 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,320 I'll I'll start with maybe some easy ones. 574 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:33,040 So is this an RSA exhibitor or a prescription drug? 575 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:40,240 Skyrizi. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to. 576 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,040 I I feel like I've heard of that. 577 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,440 So I'm gonna have to go with prescription drug in my OK, 578 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,240 cool. I watch a lot of ads. 579 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,120 I know. That's the whole problem. 580 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,240 These are so ingrained in our brains now, yeah, that you just 581 00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:56,440 can't. Like, it's really hard to 582 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,560 separate our, our work world from, like, the silly 583 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,280 prescription drug names. Yeah. 584 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,880 But if you think about it, Skyrizi definitely could be 585 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,320 like, I don't know, some sort of like. 586 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,360 Cloud security company. Oh, absolutely yeah, that's the 587 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,840 whole point. Like there's just, there's so 588 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,320 many of these. It's like, I mean, this is a 589 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,080 dumb I dumb game, but it's also just kind of shows you like 590 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,160 we've run out of names. Yeah, OK, here's one. 591 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,640 Just see where we can go here. Prescription drug name or RSA 592 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,320 exhibitor in case. Ace. 593 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:49,320 In case ENENQASE. That one's tough in case I feel 594 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,600 like that could be a prescription drug. 595 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:53,960 Could be, but it's a security company. 596 00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:01,040 Oh my. Gosh, it's a full stack quantum 597 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,880 safe security platform. Of course it's quantum. 598 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,360 Right, Yep. If you saw it like spelled out 599 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,720 with a capital Qi, think you would have gotten it. 600 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,520 You would have been like, Oh yeah, I got it. 601 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,120 I got. It you have to look it up after. 602 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,040 This Yeah, yeah. Listen, we're, we're learning 603 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,040 together on this, on this program. 604 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:25,960 OK, another one. How about Vraylar? 605 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,840 Oh, Oh my gosh, this is really hard. 606 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,680 OK, I'm gonna go with a vendor this time. 607 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:44,280 It's a it's a drug. It's unfortunately, it's a drug. 608 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,080 The Google description is a drug for schizophrenia. 609 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,840 That sounds like an alien planet. 610 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,760 Oh my. God, it does. 611 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,200 It does. It literally does. 612 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,640 It sure does. Yes, that would actually be a 613 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,800 really good cybersecurity company name, honestly. 614 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:05,600 I mean, you couldn't go wrong. Yeah, OK. 615 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:06,280 I'm. Enjoying. 616 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,240 It let's do a couple more before you have to go let's see let me 617 00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:19,720 just grab a random 10 that's too easy Oh here we go kindo. 618 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,160 Kindo like KINDO. That's correct. 619 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,600 I is it a vendor? It is, yes. 620 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:32,160 I got. One. 621 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,400 Yep. What do they do? 622 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,600 Kindo delivers self managed AI automation with a full tool 623 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,160 chain and broad model support. I don't know anymore now than I 624 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,880 did before I read that. There's a whole lot of words 625 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,080 there. I probably know less actually. 626 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,120 Yeah. I know. 627 00:38:55,120 --> 00:39:04,480 OK, one more How about Abilify? Oh man, this could really be 628 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,040 either or. I'm going to go with 629 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,840 prescription drug. Nailed it. 630 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,440 You got it. Yes, it really could be either 631 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:20,920 or because any like 90% of tech companies just or it's not so 632 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,480 much recently, but would just add if I on to the end of like a 633 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:33,160 noun to make yes, you know, like Securify or whatever encryptify 634 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,920 and you know there then you have a company name, but. 635 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,640 Honestly, you should double check that that's also not 636 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,160 available. It could. 637 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,120 Be. Oh my gosh, it very much could 638 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:47,040 be. Yeah. 639 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,920 OK, wait, I have one more. I think this is going to break 640 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,600 your brain. You're going to have a really 641 00:39:52,600 --> 00:40:03,520 hard time with this mind flow. Oh my, I don't know, mind flow. 642 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,160 OK, I'm going to go with. Fender. 643 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,480 Yes. Oh wow. 644 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:15,360 I know it sounds like like a melatonin type drug or something 645 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,280 is. That like social engineering, 646 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,720 that's the only thing I. Could think of I know it's an AI 647 00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:27,720 thing. Yeah I know but yeah, so that 648 00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:30,640 was our our silly game for RSA. I thought it would be fun and we 649 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,840 we could literally do this all day with the exhibitor list and 650 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,360 prescription drugs. It one thing I discovered is if 651 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,360 you Google like crazy prescription drug names, you 652 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,600 will get a whole lot of results. And you know, some of some of 653 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,200 them are just completely insane. And there's all these explainers 654 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,760 of like, why do drug names sound like this? 655 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,080 And there's there's actual like government regulation is about 656 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,960 like what has to be in the name and that kind of stuff. 657 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,400 But really, yeah, I didn't dive too deep into it, but there 658 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,080 there's reasons for it. It's not just random like word 659 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,760 salad, that there is some sort of logic. 660 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,720 Unlike naming companies, you can just say whatever you want. 661 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,560 That market like I mean, there are some really cool cyber 662 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,360 security vendor names in my opinion too, like Mandy and like 663 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,840 you, I don't know, I obviously like I don't know. 664 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,920 So I feel like it's funny how how different it's become the 665 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,600 past few years, like. Definitely. 666 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,000 Of these new companies in the debut. 667 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,120 Yeah, very much so, yeah. In the early days that I was 668 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,160 describing, you know, before about like the at the pre 669 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,120 history of the security industry, it was, it would just 670 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:47,240 be like someone's name or it would just be some pun, not pun, 671 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:52,200 but like version of key or crypto or security and some 672 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,880 combination of those. And that was kind of it like 673 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,560 Dave's, you know, key management company just like, OK, I guess. 674 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,760 Yeah, exactly. I and I love that, you know. 675 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,360 We got to go back. It was a simpler time. 676 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,720 Yeah. All right, Linds, I know you got 677 00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:12,400 things to do. You have a baby to take care of. 678 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,560 So it was, it was great seeing you. 679 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,360 Thanks for doing this and premature welcome back from 680 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,240 maternity leave. Yeah, thank you. 681 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,000 Starting next week, I'll be back. 682 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:27,400 So I'm very excited and yeah, enjoy our essay, some lots of 683 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:32,320 pictures or tweet them and maybe go in the exhibit hall and take 684 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,720 some pictures of some of these prescription drugs slash vendor. 685 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,520 That's exactly what I'm going to do. 686 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,920 I'm just going to send you an endless series of photos of 687 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:40,880 booths. Yeah, that's exactly what's 688 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,080 gonna happen. All right. 689 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:42,880 Good to see you. Take care. 690 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,680 Thanks. While you were happy planet, I 691 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,880 was trying to decide for one inland, even if I couldn't. 692 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:55,120 Understand it.