1 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Welcome to the Decipher podcast. I'm Dennis Fisher here with 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,880 Lindsay O'Donnell, Welch Linds. I think we actually made it 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,080 through a week without a giant vulnerability or targeted attack 4 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:25,160 or anything catastrophic happening. 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:32,080 Knock on wood, but yes, that's. Yeah, I think, oh, right, that's 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,440 true. It's not the weekend. 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,440 We have like 15 hours before. Yeah, things could still go 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,560 sideways. Yeah. 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,040 The, I think the biggest, like it wasn't a security event, but 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,680 the AWS outage took up a lot of people's time and energy this 11 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:48,680 week. I think I I paid a little bit of 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,080 attention to it, like everybody did. 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,040 But once I realized it wasn't security related, I was like, 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,040 Nah, I don't care. They'll they'll fix the Internet 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,760 at some point. I know I, I feel like those crop 16 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,240 up every, you know, few months or weeks where you know, 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,920 there's, there's an outage and then everyone realizes just how 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,640 interconnected everything is. And yeah I did see some 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,120 hilarious tweets about was it IoT connected like beds or 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,560 something weren't heating up properly or weren't like moving, 21 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,560 just first world problems. The first thing that came into 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,880 my head was like what in the hell have we done that? 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,040 Like people are getting like first degree burns because their 24 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,360 bed won't cool down because the cloud platform is out. 25 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,680 Like what? That's I think there are bigger 26 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,560 issues at play if that's really your biggest problem. 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Honest to God in it, it was one of those things where like it 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,920 happened overnight for us, like, you know, US East Coast and I 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,000 kind of woke up and I don't, oh, I know exactly how I figured out 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,120 what had happened. I went to play Wordle and it 31 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,360 wouldn't work. And I was like, oh, there must 32 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,000 be a thing going on. And then, you know, noticed it 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,560 in some group chats or whatever. But that's like how how 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,880 interconnected and dumb the world is that you're just like 35 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:16,520 Oh my word game doesn't work and my bed might kill me and like my 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,640 oven won't Preheat remotely. It is funny like that's you 37 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:25,800 know, in in like the movies and when these types of things are 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,160 dramatized, like it's always like all the power shuts down 39 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,520 and like these are black and everything. 40 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,560 But like even like do you remember the Dan you know D Dos 41 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,560 attack in like 2017? That was because of the Mirai 42 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,480 bot Nets, like the cute DDoS attack like even that I, I 43 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,960 remember I found out about that because I couldn't log into 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,240 Netflix. I was just like, OK, this is 45 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,880 just, there's nothing critical happening from my end, you know, 46 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,120 as an everyday user, so. It's just funny. 47 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,600 Yeah. It was funny because it kind of 48 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,040 turned into like, almost a snow day for people, too, because, 49 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,600 like, my son who's in college texted me. 50 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,040 It was like, what the hell did Amazon do to the Internet? 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,600 I can't even do school work here. 52 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,640 And you know, he had like a bunch of laughing emojis and I 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,600 text him back. I was like, there's, I've told 54 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,640 you this, there's like 4 companies that run the Internet. 55 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:23,400 That's one of them. And when it breaks like this is 56 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,240 what happens. He's like, cool, I'm going to go 57 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,200 play golf. That's good reaction. 58 00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:34,040 Yeah, it's every, every so often that meme pops up where it like 59 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,560 all the blocks are, you know? Yes. 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,760 Spiraling down to 1 little block and I've and sadly I've seen 61 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,640 that over and over with, you know open source security issues 62 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,360 and like you know just all these out like a critical 63 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,720 infrastructure and now just this so like it's. 64 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,640 Just. I think that there's a recurring 65 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,360 theme here, so. I can't even remember what the 66 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,680 original. I know it's from XKCD, but I 67 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:07,200 don't remember what the original like configuration of that comic 68 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,040 was. Like what's holding up the 69 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,680 entire Internet? It's probably something like 70 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,960 JavaScript or, you know, some dumb shit like that. 71 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,360 I can't remember what it was, but it's used over and over and 72 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,280 over whenever there's some kind of cascading failure like this 73 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:26,640 and the general public realizes that everything is being held 74 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:32,200 together, you know, by Silly Putty and you know, like 4 75 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,240 people in a data center in Seattle. 76 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:36,560 Exactly. Yeah. 77 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,560 That's, that's not going to change, I don't think. 78 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,280 Unfortunately, no. It's only going to get worse, 79 00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:44,680 like consolidation. And yeah, we know. 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,040 All right, let's get to some actual security things. 81 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,160 So you wrote a story this week, Linds, about this Cyber Solarium 82 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,840 Commission report. They sort of come out with 83 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:56,320 these. I don't know if it's like a 84 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:02,720 regular cadence, but every few months or so they do some really 85 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,680 good work. Tell us about that one that 86 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:05,400 came. Out this week. 87 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,000 Yeah, that it, this is interesting to write about and 88 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,960 read because those were, the report basically comes from this 89 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,120 Commission, as you mentioned, the Cyberspace Solarium 90 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,800 Commission that was created I think like 6 or so years ago by 91 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,840 Congress to basically when the US was like, how can we, you 92 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:32,520 know, defend against really big cyber attacks? 93 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,040 And like, what do we need to do? Like we need like benchmarks and 94 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,600 like a step by step process to measure like how well we're 95 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,560 equipped to defend against these types of things. 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:51,040 So the Commission created 82 recommendations for how, you 97 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,080 know, different, basically different measures that the US 98 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,080 government could take across Congress, across, you know, 99 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,240 executive actions, all these different things like in also 100 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,840 like operationally, how its agencies operate, things like 101 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:08,920 that. And every year so far, the 102 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,280 report, there's been like a report basically that comes out 103 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:17,480 in matches and measures how the US government's doing using 104 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,320 these recommendations as a benchmark. 105 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,920 So you know, some of these things are like, you know, 106 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:32,200 strengthen SISA or like, you know, diversify workforce, yes, 107 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,800 improve cyber capacity building and consolidate the funding of 108 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,320 cyber foreign assistance things, things along that those lines. 109 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,280 So like you can imagine over the past year, just with like all 110 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:51,720 the craziness and chaotic nature of what's been happening that, 111 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,080 you know, in this past report that they came out with this 112 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,680 week, they found that some of the recommendations that had 113 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,240 previously been, you know, there a lot of progress had been made 114 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,360 towards those recommendations. Now we're kind of in reversal 115 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:11,320 and they're they basically said that there was a bit of a set 116 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:16,320 back in EU s s ability to protect itself from threats due 117 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:21,960 to things like SISA budget cuts and, you know, some other moves 118 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,560 that have been made over the past year. 119 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,840 Now, I do want to say that in the report, they found that some 120 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,280 of this, some of the things that they have seen over the past 121 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,920 year is just kind of the nature of, you know, things that 122 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,280 happened during presidential transitions, kind of par for the 123 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,360 course. Like there's going to be there's 124 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,920 going to be personnel turnover. There's going to be like a shift 125 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,560 in priority. And like that's just kind of 126 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,440 what happens. But I think, you know, they 127 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,680 pointed specifically to CISA, which you know, as we've seen in 128 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,520 the news recently has been going through a lot of budget cuts and 129 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:04,560 a lot of personnel cuts and then also a couple of other, a couple 130 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,960 of other concerns there as well. Yeah, it's, it's disheartening 131 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,880 to see these kind of things obviously because as we just 132 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:19,600 detailed talking about the AWS thing, everything relies on the, 133 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,600 you know, on the Internet in one way or another, whether you 134 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,240 think it's disconnected or, or it's not. 135 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:33,720 And we're at a point in, you know, human history where you 136 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,400 can't go backwards on these things. 137 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:40,320 You really do need to be making progress on a continual basis 138 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:47,200 because we have, you know, nation state adversaries who are 139 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,920 trying to do the same things we are and are also watching what 140 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,760 our defensive capabilities are and developing offensive 141 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,680 capabilities to exploit where they see weaknesses. 142 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:05,880 I mean, everybody talks about China and Russia and to some 143 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,320 degree North Korea and Iran in terms of their offensive 144 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,960 programs. And they're not, you know, 145 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,560 they're not slowing down, they're accelerating and in a 146 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:19,200 lot of cases are, are ahead of us in terms of some of these 147 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,760 offensive capabilities and the type of programs they're putting 148 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,000 in the field. So if we're going backward on 149 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,600 defense in some cases or in some, some key areas, it's, you 150 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,680 know, that's a, that's a real problem. 151 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,480 You know, outside of the CISA, the personnel things and all the 152 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,960 budget chaos here, our government is not operating at 153 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,840 the moment, which is always, you know, which is a crazy thing if 154 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,120 you, I don't know if you've had these conversations, but I have 155 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,520 friends that work in the government in DC or, you know, 156 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,280 have recently. We also have friends, you know, 157 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,960 and colleagues from other countries that are like, I don't 158 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,120 really understand. Your government just does not 159 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,520 work right now. No, Yeah. 160 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,120 They just, they just sent everyone home and said we'll pay 161 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,880 you later. It's almost impossible to 162 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,120 explain. It's so it's crazy, yeah. 163 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,640 I mean, and we talked about this in previous podcast too, but 164 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,520 like the impact that, you know, the current situation short term 165 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,280 is having on cybersecurity is really interesting to see play 166 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,880 out. But then as you mentioned, when 167 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,000 you look at other countries and the capabilities that they have 168 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,280 that that's really scary as well. 169 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,320 I mean, if you look at how China operates, like they're so 170 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,480 unified in terms of how different processes work 171 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,080 together. If you look at, you know, what 172 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,120 they're, you know, some of their rules are their standards for 173 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,840 vulnerability disclosure and things like that compared to how 174 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,680 you know other nations operate. And then you look at kind of 175 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:56,520 where we're at right now in terms of like our, the 176 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,000 operations that we currently have in place, it's, it's a 177 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,520 little disheartening. So, and the other thing too is, 178 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:09,240 you know, CISA, I would say does a lot of work behind the scenes, 179 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,560 both in within the government, but then also like they've 180 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,920 really done a good job in my personal opinion, like fostering 181 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,760 this like public private collaboration over the past few 182 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,440 years and like trying to reach out to those like less 183 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,640 resourced, you know, entities like, you know, that might be in 184 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,480 more of, you know, rural areas. So like trying to like go from 185 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,080 the ground up a little bit more there. 186 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,200 So I think there's just going to be a longer term impact there in 187 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,160 the private sector that hopefully won't be too big of a 188 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,400 hit, but we'll see. Yeah, there's no question about 189 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,360 it. We did mention this I think a 190 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,880 couple weeks ago when we were talking about some of the 191 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,760 specific cuts that had to do with funding for state, local 192 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,080 and tribal government programs, specifically around 193 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,560 cybersecurity, which you know those, those agencies tend not 194 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:07,280 to have large budgets and they don't have large personnel pools 195 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,120 with cybersecurity specific experience. 196 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,320 And it's really difficult for them to go and find and pay for 197 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,720 that, that expertise when they don't have the funding from the 198 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,480 federal government to do it. You know, the, the information 199 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,440 sharing part of it is great. And that's all well and good 200 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,720 when Cissa sends you a bunch of things and says, Hey, there's 201 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,480 attacks against this F5 bug or whatever it happens to be. 202 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:38,040 But if you're a small government agency in a, you know, in Nevada 203 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,720 and you're like, well, cool. But we don't have anybody to 204 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,080 help us actually do anything about that. 205 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,080 You know, we have Fred, the IT guy that runs everything for an 206 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,600 entire county and doesn't, you know, how is he going to go find 207 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,560 and patch every F5 box we have? But. 208 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,440 Yeah, Yeah, that's a really good point. 209 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,680 The other thing in the report that, you know, I wanted to get 210 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:07,200 your thoughts on too was the. So basically it made several 211 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,560 recommendations to help, you know, in the coming year, get us 212 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:15,040 back to where we need to be in terms of strengthening, you 213 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,320 know, different authorities and like getting more funding to 214 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,600 agencies. And obviously, you know, SISA 215 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,600 was was part of that as well as the State Department restoring 216 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,840 the workforce and funding there. They also mentioned elevating 217 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,720 the role of the office of the National Cyber Director. 218 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,040 I thought that was interesting because and kind of obvious, but 219 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:41,560 like, you know, we have so many different regulatory security 220 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:45,760 initiatives across the US and it's such like a patchwork and 221 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,040 fragment system. So that's, you know, over the 222 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,880 past few years, that's that's been top of mind for me at least 223 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,640 is like, you know, how to capture it basically like 224 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,720 encapsulate better unified, like security initiatives across the 225 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,320 country. And that was one thing that this 226 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,840 report kind of highlighted was needed, the need for the Office 227 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,480 of the National Cyber Director to have these elevated 228 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,480 privileges to be able to, you know, help do that. 229 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,520 I completely agree with that. I don't know. 230 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,880 The way that the federal government works is an absolute 231 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,520 opaque mystery to me, even though, you know, we all learned 232 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,840 about it in grade school and understand like the branches and 233 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,520 all that. But who does what when is is 234 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,760 still kind of mysterious. But that seems to me like a 235 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,040 position that should be essentially a cabinet level 236 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:47,800 position given the dependency of everything on the Internet or, 237 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,400 you know, however you want to classify it on, you know, 238 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,200 computer technology these days, networks, cyber security, 239 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,920 whatever you want to say that. I mean, how is that not as vital 240 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:06,320 as, you know, the kinetic defense or, you know, Department 241 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,120 of Treasury or things like that Department of Transportation 242 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,200 that are part of everybody's daily lives. 243 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,080 And as we see when something like the AWS outage happens or, 244 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,080 you know, the Mirai thing that you mentioned earlier, Linds, 245 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,280 people realize it when those things happen. 246 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,920 They don't realize it is part of their daily lives. 247 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,520 But you know, when their car won't update its software 248 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,520 because there's some sort of like cloud problem or, yeah, 249 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,480 your, your bed tries to kill you in the middle of the night, then 250 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:42,400 then you realize it. But I do feel like that is these 251 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,920 are essential things that are part of daily life and the 252 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,520 government needs to be paying as close attention to those as it 253 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,800 does to any of those other bits and pieces. 254 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:57,920 So elevating that to the highest possible level seems like a no 255 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,880 brainer to me. And it seems like something that 256 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,320 probably, but one of the other problems is we've had so many 257 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:08,040 different versions of that position over the years. 258 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,280 You know, there was like a cybersecurity czar at various 259 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,600 times, or there was this office or there's this office. 260 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,440 And there's so many different parts of the government that are 261 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,560 responsible for overlapping pieces of critical 262 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,800 infrastructure defense. And I do feel like it's in some 263 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,320 some ways sort of a game of telephone of like, OK, well, 264 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,480 who's in charge of this and who's responsible for that? 265 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,080 And who's going to do this, especially when we're in the 266 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,400 middle of this chaotic period that doesn't really seem to have 267 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,120 any end on the horizon with budget cuts and personnel cuts, 268 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,920 You know, at CISA, which everybody sort of points to, is, 269 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,320 and rightly so, is the flagship cybersecurity defense 270 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,440 organization for the federal government. 271 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,800 And they're being, you know, systematically gutted, 272 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,560 especially the cybersecurity portion of CISA over the last, I 273 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,880 guess what, seven months, six months now, whatever it is, it's 274 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:14,760 been and there's no real, I don't, I haven't seen any real 275 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:20,079 logic to those, to those reductions or any real game plan 276 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:25,520 in why they're doing this. And you know, it, it doesn't 277 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:30,560 seem like it's certainly not improving our defenses in any 278 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,520 way. So I I don't know. 279 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,640 That's. It's kind of a rambling answer 280 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,240 to your question, but. No, yeah. 281 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,280 And that's an interesting like one thing that sticks out to me 282 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,640 is like, now we're obviously seeing these, you know, these 283 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,680 cuts in in personnel, these cuts in workforce. 284 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:53,320 Like when it comes to security, is there going to be an explicit 285 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,880 way that we can measure like, oh, we had more cyber attacks 286 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:00,360 this year like we, you? Know. 287 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,080 I think it's going to be really hard and like, you know, one way 288 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,080 that it could be measured is, you know, maybe there's going to 289 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,920 be like, if any, like just with the the challenges right now 290 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,040 around, you know, public collaboration and having like 291 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:23,160 reporting, sharing, you know, ways to share and report about 292 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,840 security incidents. Like I almost wonder if we're 293 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,720 going to see less reported breach it. 294 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,800 Yeah, I don't know. I think it's going to be tough 295 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,440 like to figure out what the impact is going to be for this 296 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,520 and how, how to measure that. But yeah, I guess it's just 297 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,480 still to be seen. There's a couple of things there 298 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:44,640 that are pretty interesting to me. 299 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:50,360 One is the, IT in some ways reminds me of the way that 300 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,600 whenever there is a change in presidential administration, 301 00:18:53,960 --> 00:19:00,000 they always sort of will weaponize things like jobs 302 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,480 reports and economic reports and be like, look how well we're 303 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,000 doing since we came into office or, you know, those sorts of 304 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,280 things. Even with like a sample size of 305 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:16,200 like 1/2 an hour, you know, and you have to take that with a 306 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,800 grain of salt. But the thing that you mentioned 307 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,520 of like are we going to, are these reporting mechanisms still 308 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,240 going to be in place where we're going to know about attacks that 309 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,480 have happened? That's a great question. 310 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,000 I don't, I don't really have an answer. 311 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,280 I mean, there are laws in place in in almost every state, I 312 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,960 think at this point that you need to report these and there 313 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,640 are regulatory things and all that kind of stuff. 314 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,000 And you can go look at the SEC filings, but the anecdotal 315 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,840 things that get sort of reported through CISA and other agencies 316 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:55,080 where a private organization will alert them to an ongoing 317 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,040 attack and then that gets disseminated. 318 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,600 I don't know because the I don't know if those, those information 319 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,640 sharing mechanisms are still going to be in place. 320 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,320 And it reminds me of the line that we see in every or in a lot 321 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,000 of breach disclosures and after action reports will those 322 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,520 they'll say something like we haven't found any evidence of. 323 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,560 Active exploitation or of you know, source code theft or XYZ, 324 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:25,320 whatever, whatever you want to put into there. 325 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,360 And everyone with any experience will be like, well, have you 326 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:32,920 looked or do you have the logs to tell you if this happened? 327 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,880 So if if six months from now somebody in the government 328 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,440 points to a thing and says look how much data breaches have gone 329 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,680 down since, you know, the beginning of 2025, you've got 330 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,880 really, have they or are we just not hearing about them, you 331 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,120 know? Yeah, I know it's like we could 332 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,800 do like a whole other podcast about, you know, stats and how 333 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,480 data is framed like that, especially in cybersecurity, 334 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,880 because there's always going to be a, you know, some sort of 335 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,560 back end context there, Especially when it comes to 336 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,640 incident reporting, because that's such a, there's so many 337 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,160 layers there, like are things being reported, like, you know, 338 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,760 what's happening on the back end and all these different things. 339 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,440 So yeah, it's really interesting. 340 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,360 Oh, yeah, I'm sure some of our stat nerd friends are like 341 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:22,280 screaming at their, you know, podcast players right now about 342 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,760 this stuff and like sample size and all kinds of other phrases I 343 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,880 don't want to hear about. But yeah, I, I think it's going 344 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,320 to be something to watch going forward. 345 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,120 That's it's a really good point you raised. 346 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,000 Yeah. So what was the other? 347 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,200 Oh, there was a couple of other things I wanted to mention that 348 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,360 you mentioned the F5 thing briefly that, you know, incident 349 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,560 that happened a few I guess two weeks ago now. 350 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,680 Gosh, yeah. With the F5 intrusion and and 351 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,280 sort of a supply chain attack, and I saw some reporting this 352 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,160 week sort of tied to the SISA thing. 353 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,040 We were just talking about how, you know, SISA put out the 354 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,600 emergency directive for the F5 thing. 355 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,440 Essentially what those say is, hey, agencies go find all these 356 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,160 F5 things and disconnect them if they're vulnerable or try and 357 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,800 patch them. And, you know, they're kind of 358 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,320 boilerplate and they happen all the time. 359 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,560 But some of the reporting, I think it was Cyberscoup 360 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,280 specifically went and kind of did a story and talked to some 361 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:32,960 former CISA folks and some Cisos that said, well, they didn't 362 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:38,000 actually know where all part of the reason that that emergency 363 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,440 directive went out is because they didn't know. 364 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,680 Well, all this F5 stuff was inside the federal government, 365 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,320 despite billions of dollars spent on these various programs 366 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,480 that are designed to know exactly where all these things 367 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,280 are inside these agencies, which, you know, it's just kind 368 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,400 of another, I don't know if data pointer is the right word, but 369 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,160 anecdotal anecdote. There we go in the, in the 370 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:08,720 timeline that shows it's not, you know, we're kind of taking 371 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,840 steps back here. You know, it's not to keep 372 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:19,440 beating this drum, but it is kind of more, you know, evidence 373 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,720 to the on that side of the fence that things are not going well. 374 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,240 Yeah, that was, that report was really interesting. 375 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:33,440 I didn't read too much into it. But so basically there was they 376 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,760 didn't understand like where the different assets were. 377 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,800 Is that what you're saying? Like, yeah, OK, yeah, it's not 378 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,480 great. No, it's not great. 379 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,800 I mean, an old cliche of like, you can't secure what you don't 380 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,200 know you have, which is, you know, one of my favorites. 381 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,480 But it's so true. It's a cliche for a reason. 382 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,760 You can't go and fix something if you don't know that you 383 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,920 actually own it. You know, we saw this so often 384 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,880 with things like the, you know, the SolarWinds attack was, you 385 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,720 know, one of the most obvious examples where tons of 386 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,840 organizations were like, no, we don't have that. 387 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,720 And then, you know, three days later, they're like, oh, we do, 388 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:13,600 yeah. Or you that. 389 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,320 Yeah, I, I feel like that's really interesting cuz like 390 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,200 asset inventory is like the number one basic thing that, and 391 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,760 the other thing is like these aren't like like, I guess 392 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,320 SolarWinds like you kind of were like, oh, that's something maybe 393 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,320 some people didn't know where it was, but like big IP appliances 394 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,280 like these are like historically targeted devices that you got to 395 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,400 know like. Right. 396 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:50,400 If you you, I would have assumed, like if I worked in any 397 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,520 government agency, I would have assumed that we had a bunch of 398 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,600 these somewhere. Like just by default, you know, 399 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,360 they almost certainly do. I can't imagine that there's any 400 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:06,240 government agency in, in DC that doesn't, you know, unless 401 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,880 they've like, ripped them out at some point. 402 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,960 But I mean, it's ubiquitous stuff. 403 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,200 But it's yeah. Yeah, that's not great. 404 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,280 No, it's not. It's not. 405 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,160 The other thing I wanted to just talk briefly about was like, 406 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,160 we've been doing these The Hacker Movie podcasts, which 407 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,040 have been super fun. The one we did this last this 408 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,040 past week that came out on Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday. 409 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,160 I think it was real genius, which I loved in your first time 410 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,840 watching that movie. And I got a lot of like, I don't 411 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,880 know if you did, but a lot of feedback from people that were 412 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,120 like, how had Lindsay never seen this movie? 413 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,640 It was so delightful, like listening to her talk about this 414 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,600 after having watched it for the first time. 415 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:54,720 Caring like an innocent child. Completely. 416 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,640 Yeah. You're like, there's a dude that 417 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,520 lives in the tunnels. I don't get it. 418 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,080 Yeah, that was great. I loved I. 419 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,040 What's funny is I I actually bought that movie, so I'm going 420 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,440 to go watch it again. Oh. 421 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,480 Hell yeah, I'd love that yes I own it for sure I own it on like 422 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,440 AI probably have a couple copies of it, but I just I rented it on 423 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,840 Amazon just for like convenience sake too just so I could watch 424 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,000 it but. Comfort movie. 425 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,040 It's so good. It's it's such a delight. 426 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,200 So if people haven't watched or listened to that episode, I 427 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,800 would encourage you to go check it out. 428 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,560 We had our friend Wendy Nether on, which is so great. 429 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,720 Just not just because Wendy is great, but she tells some really 430 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,440 incredible stories. She was part of the, I guess you 431 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,800 would call it hacker scene. I mean, she explains it, but in 432 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:53,600 the early 80s, early to mid 80s, that is sort of portrayed in 433 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,560 real genius. And she knew the woman who the 434 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,520 character of Jordan was was pretty loosely based on. 435 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:06,240 But she Wendy's just got some great sort of stories about that 436 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:11,360 time and some some explorations that they did that were pretty 437 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,080 funny. Her and her friends and yeah. 438 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,960 It was definitely some great background, I would say to the 439 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,720 movie. And I feel like you have, you 440 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,880 know, we've got a couple more of these in the pipeline, you know, 441 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,880 going down the road for in terms of picking other movies. 442 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,960 So if people have, you know, things that they want us to talk 443 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,480 about, specific movies or TV shows or anything, would love 444 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,040 to, we'd be open to it and want to continue this. 445 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,160 Yeah, absolutely. We have a spreadsheet with like 446 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:47,000 a very long list of of these movies and you know, we've done 447 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,160 sneakers and war games and real Genius already. 448 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,160 And there's a bunch of others that are, you know, considered 449 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,800 hacker movies, things like the Net and hackers, the Matrix, 450 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,080 things like that. But then, you know, the 451 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,400 definition gets a little looser after that with, you know, 452 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,840 things like Die Hard. And we do have Black Hat on 453 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,320 there, which is I don't have you ever seen that? 454 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,560 I think I have a while ago. Is that with Chris Hemsworth? 455 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,280 Yes, yes. I think I saw it a while ago. 456 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,240 Yeah, we need like a bad hacker movie like offshoot. 457 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,600 We're going to do that. I mean, we've done, we did all 458 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,240 of those. You weren't you weren't involved 459 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:34,480 in these, but we did a lot of these movies previously, me and 460 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,640 Pete Baker and Zoe Lindsay, usually with some some guests 461 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,760 like back in the day. And now we're we're redoing a 462 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,000 bunch of them. But we do have a long list and I 463 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,640 I sent that list to a bunch of our friends too and said, hey, 464 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,960 if you have, if you want to come on a on an episode, let me know. 465 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,680 And people added a couple of other movies like Superman 3, 466 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,080 which I'm there's no way on earth you've seen that movie. 467 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:02,360 There's no way OK you if you, if and when you watch it, you'll 468 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,920 understand why it's on there. But it's it's incredibly dated. 469 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,520 It's from like 1983, I think. But it's extremely goofy. 470 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,840 But there is, there is like a computer, computer aspect to it, 471 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,920 which is quite funny. But there's other ones, you 472 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,400 know, like Independence Day and like Catch Me If You Can, which 473 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,600 is a great social engineering movie, obviously. 474 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,600 Yeah, I was going to say all the social engineering movies like 475 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,800 Home Alone would be a good one. Around Christmas. 476 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,720 The Ferris Bueller's Day Off has some good stuff in there. 477 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,640 Yeah, catch what you can. So I I think all that stuff is 478 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,000 really fun. Yeah. 479 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,480 Oh, Ferris Bueller's common we got, we got a special episode on 480 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:46,800 that one. We've talked about that. 481 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,080 Yeah. Catch me if you can. 482 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,240 There was a it might have been probably right around the time 483 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,320 you started covering security. There was like a whole two to 484 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:01,320 three-year period where that guy Frank Abingnail was like he was 485 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,200 just available at every hacker conference. 486 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,120 He was out there like giving keynotes and things. 487 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,800 It might have been maybe a little before your time, I'm not 488 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,560 sure. But he was around like you would 489 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,240 see him at like Black Hat or things like that. 490 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,000 Yeah, yeah, that's, that's kind of funny. 491 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,520 You're just like, all right, buddy. 492 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,640 I mean, I'm all for everybody getting their money. 493 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,880 But like, once you've heard his stories about like, yeah, OK, 494 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,720 you impersonated there and, like, got it, Got it, Got it, 495 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,880 Yeah. That's yeah, sounds about right. 496 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,400 Sorry about your childhood. Yeah. 497 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,320 I feel like the there's also like some good TV shows too that 498 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,080 that are worth and I don't know, I feel like another cool thing 499 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:55,480 is like, you know, now with like AI, like, yeah, there's a lot of 500 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,160 movies that have like interesting philosophical takes 501 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,640 on AI and like machine learning and all that too. 502 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,000 And there's a little bit of a cybersecurity twist in it. 503 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,920 So I think that would be a cool angle to take to. 504 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,640 There's so many AI Movies Now, like just in the last probably 505 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,360 four years, we both watched this absolute trash movie called 506 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,400 Heart of Stone that has Gal Gadot and I can't even remember 507 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:28,680 who else but her just in front of a green screen AI thing for 508 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,800 90. It's absolute nonsense. 509 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,360 There could not have been a script. 510 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,680 I don't we'll we'll do that at some point, but there's a lot of 511 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,360 those, the most recent Mission Impossible movies too, all AI 512 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,120 based crap. But yeah, there's a lot of the 513 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,080 TV part of it. We we had talked about trying to 514 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,400 do something with Mr. Robot when that was still on, but we 515 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,000 couldn't really figure out a way to. 516 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,920 I mean, I guess now that it's been off the air, like the whole 517 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,040 series is completed and, you know, there's no real way to do 518 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,560 it episode by episode, but we could sort of talk about it in 519 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,120 general. Yeah. 520 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,360 You know, because there are people that we know who worked 521 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,880 on that show, which could be kind of fun to do. 522 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,680 It got pretty far away from the hacker stuff towards the end, 523 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:20,920 but. It did, yeah. 524 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,240 I think probably the first like 3 episodes would be the best for 525 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,200 that, but yeah, yeah. I remember when that started the 526 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,360 first episode where he's just like, I thought it was going to 527 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,400 be kind of hacker of the week, like, you know, kind of ACSI 528 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,400 thing where he was just going to go and take down, you know, like 529 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:44,320 sort of soft blackmail, you know, criminals. 530 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,640 And I was like, oh, this will be cool. 531 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,040 That sounds great, but it very clear, you know, very quickly 532 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,720 you're like, Oh no, that's not what this is at all. 533 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,520 This is real weird. This is some Doctor Jekyll and 534 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,640 Mr. Hyde type shit going on. Yeah, so good though. 535 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,400 It is. It's really good. 536 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,120 All right, before we go animal updates. 537 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,160 Yes, do. You do, I have. 538 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,920 Nope, don't have a dog yet, but some very important dog related 539 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,560 news. I was on a walk on the bike path 540 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,320 in my town a few days ago and there's tons of dogs in there 541 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,720 all the time, always stopping to pet them if they'll let me. 542 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,280 I met a little golden retriever puppy named Rigatoni. 543 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,240 Amazing name. I know. 544 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,640 I couldn't believe it because her owner kept calling her Tony. 545 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,320 And I was like, oh, that's her name's Tony. 546 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,480 And she said Rigatoni. It was this older woman, like in 547 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,360 her 70s, and she was so proud of it. 548 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,800 Like Rigatoni. She's like, yes, I'd love it. 549 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,600 It's incredible. A+ name. 550 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,000 I'm going to have to steal that when we get Future. 551 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,480 When we get her second dog, whenever that is. 552 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:01,480 Yeah, yeah. So no dog for me, but I did meet 553 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,360 Rigatoni, which is great. I loved him or her actually. 554 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,120 It was great. OK, on your end, you have a much 555 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,960 more concerning animal update. Yes, well, I, I, I was talking 556 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,280 to you on Twitter about this, but I, we basically had what we 557 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,239 thought was a squirrel in our bathroom. 558 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,239 And we discovered it 1:00 AM. It was in it literally in the 559 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,719 toilet, still alive. Alive. 560 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,400 Yeah. And we were like, that's, you 561 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,040 know, really weird, but whatever. 562 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:40,840 And by the way, so I didn't see this alleged squirrel in there. 563 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,520 So he was like, oh, it was a squirrel. 564 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:48,000 Like it had a bushy tail. The next night we we were just 565 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,199 watching TV, my husband and I and we look over and on the 566 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,760 couch across the room there was another squirrel that he thought 567 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,120 was a squirrel but Nope it was actually a rat. 568 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,680 It was not a squirrel. So we have a bit of a rat 569 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:11,240 infestation going on now. The tail was like slightly 570 00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:15,560 furry, so I understood why he maybe thought it was a squirrel, 571 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,760 but I was, I took one look at it. 572 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,280 I was like, that is not a squirrel. 573 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:25,160 That that. And yeah, we saw, we saw that 574 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,120 one. We saw another one, the other, 575 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,760 you know, at like 1:00 AM the same night. 576 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,960 So yeah, it's. We're dealing OK, All right. 577 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,840 This is both more concerning and clears up a few things because I 578 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,240 couldn't figure out how a squirrel had a gotten into your 579 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,720 house and B would want to be in the toilet. 580 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,120 I didn't know that. Didn't make a lot of sense to 581 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,000 me. Squirrels are dumb, but like 582 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,400 they they wouldn't. I don't consider them aquatic 583 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,080 creature. I couldn't imagine why he would 584 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,240 be in the toilet and. I like literally like Speaking 585 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,320 of CSI, like spent half the day. I was like there we have like an 586 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,600 air vent on the ceiling. So I was like, maybe it jumped 587 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,560 from the ceiling down into the toilet. 588 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,880 Like, yeah, I like measured out all the holes. 589 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,320 I was just like how? Did. 590 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,320 Oh yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that. 591 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,560 But the rat thing makes more logical sense. 592 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,840 Like from a animal perspective I can understand how a rat gets 593 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,440 into a house and specifically a toilet. 594 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,560 I guess I don't know if you guys have a septic tank or I'm the 595 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,160 sewer but if. Yes, we do. 596 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,160 OK, so the septic I don't know, but yeah, who knows? 597 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,440 Like, you know, we've had mice in our house. 598 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,840 Everybody get has mice in your house. 599 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,160 You're like, how do they even get in here? 600 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,920 I don't know. Who knows deal with mice. 601 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,880 I yeah, rats are different. This I'm going to next time I 602 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,240 see one, which I will, I'm going to take a picture of it and 603 00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,320 I'll, I'll post it on Twitter and people, yeah, please sells. 604 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,280 But I mean, I thought it was a rat. 605 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,360 You know, my husband still is like, I don't know a squirrel, 606 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,680 but I I definitely think it's not a squirrel, but it looks, 607 00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:15,000 but it's like a mat, a mouse rat basically like. 608 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:20,400 It's but it has a tail. Do you oh, do you think it's a 609 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,360 vole? Have you ever seen one of those? 610 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,880 I so I that was one of my options. 611 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,840 I looked it up and I don't think it's a vole. 612 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,840 It has like the body of a mouse, like a very big mouse, but then 613 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,320 not like a rat tail. It's like a, it's like a furry 614 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,400 tail. I'm so confused by this. 615 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,480 So it's it's too bad this isn't a video episode. 616 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,040 Our faces are just like too much. 617 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,880 I have maybe one of our honest nurses got some thoughts on 618 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,800 this. There'll probably be like 40 619 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,880 people that'll be like, hey, dummies, it's this. 620 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,240 But I can't think of anything. I was going to have some 621 00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:00,520 questions for your husband about. 622 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,800 Like squirrels and rats don't really look all that much alike 623 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,120 at all. That's that's why I was like, 624 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,400 that's, that's a rat. That's not a squirrel. 625 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,120 That's a rat, yeah. I'm not, I'm not afraid of 626 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,800 squirrels at all. I mean that they're stupid and I 627 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,440 don't like them, but like rats, I wouldn't say I'm afraid of 628 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,920 them, but I don't want to be anywhere near them. 629 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,040 Like they're like, if you've ever walked down like in New 630 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,880 York City street or whatever, and you just see one and they're 631 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,200 black and just like, this is the most disgusting creature on 632 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,840 earth. I, yeah, I, I so I did, I looked 633 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,720 at more pictures. I think the closest I could see 634 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:42,520 if people go look up this on their phone is a pack rat 635 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,640 because it kind of has like the body of a mouse, but then it has 636 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,840 like a tail that's a little furry. 637 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,000 So. But then I saw that they're not 638 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,240 really native to Massachusetts, which is where I'm based, so. 639 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,560 I have to be honest, I'm not sure. 640 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,720 I did not know that a pack rat was a real thing. 641 00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:06,520 I thought a pack rat was just like somebody who collects a 642 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,840 bunch of shit that they don't need. 643 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,320 It's an actual. OK, I know a. 644 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,040 Lot about rats right now. I've done extensive research. 48 645 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:16,320 hours. Oh my. 646 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,720 God this is the nightmare. My you know my wife. 647 00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:26,320 She would have sold our house in 1/2 an hour. 648 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,800 Yes, I did. Not, but you just moved into 649 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,320 your house, yeah. It's we set up so many traps 650 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,560 like we, we haven't called an exterminator, but we're going to 651 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,920 see how, you know, last night went and they actually didn't 652 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,520 appear again last night. This was two nights ago that all 653 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:50,800 this happened and went down but. I assume you have not informed 654 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,080 your children of this. Have they seen this thing? 655 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,280 OK. We caught one on on sticky tape. 656 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,720 I I don't know if like I'm going to get cancelled for talking 657 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:03,000 about the ways that. These I have glue traps. 658 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,240 Get out of here with that. But so we, we kind of like hid 659 00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:08,920 that from them. But yeah, they're they're 660 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,400 blissfully unaware right now. That's good. 661 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,760 Yeah. I told you we had like, this is, 662 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,360 we've been in our house a very long time, like 15, almost 20 663 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,880 years ago probably. We had a bat in our house. 664 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:23,400 We. No. 665 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,120 Oh, yeah, I, we have a ceiling fan in our bedroom. 666 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:32,640 I woke up in the middle of the night one night and looked up 667 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,840 and I, you know, just kind of rolling over and I saw something 668 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,080 just flying around the ceiling fan. 669 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,280 I was in the middle of the summer and just saw it. 670 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:46,320 And I was like, Oh my God. And the like, the only thing 671 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,680 people know about bats is that they're like, they follow 672 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,320 motion, right? So I was like, that's got to be 673 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,560 a bat. I turn on the light. 674 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,240 I was like, Oh my God, turn the light back off real quick. 675 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,800 Like kind of woke my wife up and was like, don't freak out. 676 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,360 But and you know, she somehow like didn't freak out and got 677 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,880 out of the room. We both got out of the room and 678 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,800 I opened the bedroom window and then we just left the room and 679 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,400 eventually didn't see the bat anymore. 680 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,160 But for like weeks after that. Or because you read so anything 681 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,640 online and they're just like, Oh no, they could be hiding in your 682 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,240 walls. They can they can squish down 683 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:30,760 into the size of like, you know, a tiny little thing and crawl 684 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,400 into. I was like just kept waiting for 685 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,720 it to. Yeah, exactly. 686 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,440 You feel. Like itchy like that. 687 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:38,160 Oh, I know. Yeah. 688 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,160 But there's like a million ways that a back can get in your 689 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,200 house, apparently. Like, it's not usually through 690 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:44,960 an open window. It's probably your attic or 691 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,600 something like that, which totally makes sense. 692 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,000 Went and checked out the attic, did all that. 693 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:55,840 But yeah, that was not a fun like 4 hours, like 2 in the 694 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,320 morning and. The worst part is when you have 695 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,920 to go in there and you're like, you have to make sure that it's 696 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,360 gone and you're you go in and you're like, is it gone? 697 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,400 Oh, yeah. And they will. 698 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,200 As I discovered, it was like sitting on like, the curtains by 699 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,160 the wind. You just like, oh, yeah. 700 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,920 And our kids were really young at the time, so it was just, you 701 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,480 know, we didn't tell them till much later in their lives. 702 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,240 Oh, that's so gross. Yeah, it was not great, not 703 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,560 ideal, but yeah, maybe you send. We should post a picture of 704 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,160 whatever it is that you eventually find. 705 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,680 I need to do it. I'm going to keep my phone handy 706 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,200 in case I come. Across. 707 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:38,600 I'm sure I want to see it for sure. 708 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,040 Yeah. I'm a little like, I'm really 709 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,360 confused by your husband's assessment of it as a squirrel. 710 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,800 Maybe it was just like hopeful. Oh yeah, it's just a squirrel. 711 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,600 It's fine. I. 712 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:52,960 Think it was just like hopeful wishing. 713 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,480 Yeah, exactly. Wish casting. 714 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,800 Yeah, it is totally harmless. Yeah. 715 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:01,080 Oh God. OK, well, that's been Animal 716 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,080 Corner with Dennis and Lindsay anyway. 717 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,200 OK, that was fun. We'll we'll keep everyone 718 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,560 updated on the wildlife and also security. 719 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,080 So, yeah. And have a good weekend all. 720 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:17,320 Right, you too see. Ya, bye.