Hello, and welcome to the Decipher Podcast.
I'm Dennis Fisher. I'm really honored and thrilled
today to have as my guest Matt Eversman.
For folks that don't know, Matt is a author, a speaker,
leadership consultant, and a retired First Sergeant in the US
Army. Matt, thanks so much for being
here. Dennis, you are very kind and it
was a very thoughtful introduction and I am happy to
to share some thoughts about whatever it is, whatever journey
we're going to go on today. But I just appreciate you being
so thoughtful to invite me. Yeah, absolutely.
I, I reached out to you a few weeks ago because I just watched
a, a video interview that you had done where you spoke about
kind of your, your whole journey from, you know, you're growing
up in Virginia, sort of your college years, deciding to
enlist in the Army and then what came after that.
And it was really fascinating to me.
So I wanted to kind of start there.
I know you didn't have like a, a straight line to the Army like
some folks do, you know, enlisting out of high school.
Had you like, what did you when you were growing up in kind of
central Virginia? What did you sort of think you
were going to do if you had any thoughts?
Like, did you think, like, you know, I'm going to go to college
and then I'll get a job and, you know, I'll figure it out.
Almost at broad, I mean, truly. And it's funny looking back on
it, my wife and I have this discussion all the time about
how, you know, how our parents with their mindset was versus,
you know, now real time what we are with our 23 year old
daughter and kind of going back. And, you know, the the short,
short answer was or, or whatever the future was going to be for
me, which is something I do later.
Like it literally like everybody's like, yeah, you're
going to talk to your buddies. Like you're going to fly in F16.
I'm going to be in the Marine Corps.
I'm going to do that. And you're like, yeah, that's
cool. It's sort of like, OK, I think
I'm going to do that sometime. And but it was only some time.
There's nothing definite in my life.
It was always just a vague notion.
And it's the youngest of four, you know, when it came time to,
to leave high school and graduate college, I really had
no earthly idea. And I, I, I, maybe I had a
little, but nothing much more than I should go to college
because my siblings did, you know, like that.
That's the, that's the, the natural line of drift.
And I wound up at, at, at Hampton Sydney College in
central Virginia, which is a great school and a story for
another day, maybe later. But even there it was.
Now what do I do? And the thought of, well, you
know, I, I, I, I don't know what I like, what I want, what I'm
good at, all that kind of shit. Pardon me.
And it just wound up being like, well, I guess I ought to be a,
an economics major because my dad was a businessman.
And, you know, but, and my idea that sometime I'll just to land
a plane, I'm going to go back to Natural Bridge and I'll, I'll,
I'll take over from my parents and run there their hardware
store in their lumber yard. Like that was about as close to
any semblance of order and plan that I could have even dreamed
up. And that's probably given myself
a little bit of credit. Well, I think, you know, when
you're 17 or 18 years old and you're looking at college, or if
you're not going to college, you know you're going to do
something else. The idea that you're supposed to
know what you want to do for the next 30-40 fifty years is kind
of insane. You know, like even trying to
figure out what you want to study in college is really
difficult because you know, and for the most part, you don't
have these paths in high school where they sort of say, oh,
well, if you like writing, go do this or if you like science, go
do this. And everybody gets to college
and they're like, well, I guess I'll be a business major.
Like you said, economics. I don't really have any other
idea unless you have like a real special, you know, I want to go
to Med school or, you know, something like that.
It's, you know, asking, especially an 18 year old boy
like like you or I was like, what do you want?
I don't know. I want to go meet some girls.
Exactly. I mean, I'm drinking beer and
playing in mud puddles. That's what I I the the
occasional eraser, you know, my wife and I really and it wasn't
very it was just like this continuous conversation we've
had and I know I'm jumping forward about just that.
And then and, you know, because I realized after, you know,
cratering at at Hampton Sydney after three years, you know,
look back and of course your first thing is like, man, I'm an
idiot, I'm stupid. I'm you know, all those things.
And I'm like, yeah, there are some things I just don't get.
Like I just macroeconomic theory just doesn't, you know, it
doesn't fit. It doesn't mean I'm dumb.
It just means I, I didn't really have aptitude for it.
And that kind of was when I started thinking, which is will
be a later discussion, I'm sure in this conversation about like
you, you know, I can't quite be so bold to say there's no such
thing as failure because clearly there is by definition.
But this idea like, you know, I, I didn't have the aptitude and I
certainly didn't have the maturity and I didn't have all
these things when I was 18 years old.
And, you know, there was so much expected and, and to a degree
rightly so, Dennis, you know, but it was like, man, if you
mess this one up, buddy, you know, you're, you're going,
you're going over the Cliff into the chasm, never to be seen
again. And you know, your your life is
done. And and that's how we all kind
of well, certainly how I felt. And maybe we, we drifted a
little too far, you know, with our daughter.
I don't think we did, but we're like encourage her.
If you're good at filling the blank in school and you want to
study that what, why not? You know, I don't want to go be
a neurosurgeon, A neuroscientist.
I again, those gifted kids do it.
But you know, for the rest of us, it's like, man, you know, I,
I love history. Go study history and don't
listen to all the people like, well, you'll never make any
money, you know, doing that. You know, that's just again,
industrial age logic. That is, is stupid, but I
digress. I apologize that that was a long
winded answer to your question about where.
I thought to myself where where I thought I was going.
But that's, I mean, I think you're exactly right there,
Matt, because like when I was going to school, like I knew I
wanted to be a writer. And, you know, I had taken some
journalism classes in high school and thought, OK, this is
cool. And so that's what I studied in
college. And I do remember my dad who was
an engineer and, you know, my mom was a teacher, but my dad
was like, what the hell are you going to do as a journal?
And how are you going to make money?
That's cool that you're a good writer.
We love that. How will you make money as a
journalist, especially in, you know, like the early 1990s when
I was getting out of college, you know, now it's a completely,
there's different paths. But back then it was like, you
go find a job in a newspaper, then you get a job at a bigger
newspaper and then hopefully that continues, right?
And you're still not going to make any money.
So it was just kind of, I didn't think about it.
I was like, I don't know, I'm good at this.
This is what I want to do. And it's interesting, you know,
and I, I watched all the President's men too many times.
So here we go. And you know, not to be super
mushy, but I hope and I know that's true.
They are. But you know, I hope that we
haven't all, you know, that we're never stifling creativity.
And that does mean for kids that want to go paint and do, you
know, literally the arts, you know, you can be a creative
engineer and, you know, investment banker.
And also, but that, that idea of, of, of doing that, which
I've kind of learned later in life, like, man, that's a,
that's a gift from God that, that, you know, I think
everybody's got a little bit of. And how else are you, how else
are you going to define yourself out in the business world?
And again, industry agnostic, where, where, where are you?
How are you going to differentiate yourself, You
know, unless you've got creativity and passion and you
know, all those things that we kind of poo poo, you know, about
like, oh, you know, go out and work and, you know, put your
shoulders into it and work hard and you'll be good.
You're like, I'm not so sure that that's the recipe for
success. Not always, no.
And you know, in the cybersecurity world where I've
worked for 25 years, a lot of the most successful and most
interesting people I've met in this world did not study
computer science or engineering or anything like that.
Some of them were like studied library sciences or they were,
you know, communications majors like me or English or history
majors or, you know, Fine Arts majors who just brought some
sort of critical thinking and outside perspective to the hard
problems that people are trying to solve.
And, you know, there's not I, I do feel like we sometimes gloss
over that and, and don't encourage people to, you know,
maybe this lane isn't for you. Go try this.
You know, like like you did. Truly, I mean, you know,
overused fridge when we say 100%, but it it, it is just so
true. And you know, I think that
mindset and again, I know this sounds a little Pollyanna for
for some people, you know, that are just built in right angle
people that are like this is the only way.
This is the process. This whatever that is in life.
I get that and God love you and that's that's great for you, not
for me. But this idea like, man, you
know, you, you if, if, if, if you, if you run into that
roadblock and you realize after some really good hard thought
and prayer, like I'm, I'm not getting it, You know, like this,
this really is we're at that Rubicon point and it's like,
not, not where I need to go, go try something else.
You know, the worst things happened is you try something
else and that doesn't work and you come back to home base like
that. That is it because if not like,
do you want to be that guy? And I mean, this probably is
what scares me the most is being that person that was locked into
fill in the blank for fill in the blank years.
And and, you know, becomes that cautionary tale like, yeah, you
know, I hated every job I've ever had, right?
No, that was absolutely my worst nightmare.
Yeah. And I, I, I don't think I could
have like I would, I would have found some way out of it there.
There's no way I I'm not one of those people that could have
done. And it doesn't sound like you
are either, Matt. Like it just wouldn't.
And I know those people. You know, I've plenty of friends
that, you know, yes, they make good livings or whatever, but
boy, are they not happy with what they're doing and it's not
fulfilling. And they're, you know, they get
up every morning and they're like, oh shit, well, here we go.
And you're just like, man, you can't, you got to find a way.
And I, I mean to kind of bring it back.
You, you mentioned, you know, like things didn't go the way
you wanted them to go when you're at Hamden Sydney.
And so you did you just kind of take a look around.
I think you had a brother that went to BMI my the West Point of
the South. Let's go baby.
And then see, did you just kind of think, you know, the military
could be a good option for me? Well.
If, if you don't remember that, that, you know, hey, you know,
I'll always, you know, maybe I'll fly jets, you know, and
I'll be the Marines because everybody wants to be the
Marines. And I'd say that action for our
Marine Corps brethren, but yeah, that that that timetable sort of
started getting closer because I did wind up going home working
for my parents. You know, the Hampton, Sydney
folks put me on a sabbatical, which was really very kind to
them. And they should have done it way
earlier. But, you know, they they did.
I mean, who fails out after their junior year, literally the
summer before your senior year? They're like, take a break bow.
And again, and rightly so, Well deserved.
Totally my all me, but I was working at I love to share this
story, Dennis, not to sound so grand, but it just it it was
such a great moment in my life. I was working for my parents,
you know, delivering sheetrock and two by fours doing that
stuff. And it was the spring.
It was the fall of of two of 1987 Ronald Reagan president,
you know, commander in chief and we're we're still fighting the
Russians and or going to stop the Russians in Germany in the
folder gap Cold War stuff. And this kid I went to high
school with walked into the lumber yard and I get I can
picture him right now. He you know, he's always, he was
a decent athlete, you know, he played ball together, but he
walked in and he, he, you know, he he stood a little straighter
and shoulders were a little back.
OK. It was just like right out of a
recruiting poster. I hadn't seen him.
He went up. He had gone to WNL.
He gone to Washington Lee and lost track and, and I'm like,
hey, Kevin, how's, how's everything at W now?
He's like, oh man, you know, I failed out like 1 semester.
I'm like, we're, you know, kindred spirits.
And I'm like, well, So what are you doing now?
And he's like, oh, I, you know, I joined the join the army and
I'm like, oh, you know, first it's like, that's cool.
I'm like, where do you, what do you do?
It's like, oh, I'm, I'm an MP and I I'm in Berlin and I'm
thinking, Dan, it's like I might as well have been the moon, you
know? I mean, I've never even.
Been on Oh for sure. You know, Berlin and he's just,
I remember he stood there across the counter and he probably 20
minutes just telling me stories of being a soldier in Berlin
with, you know, divided and literally talking about the spy
transfers, you know, at the gate and early.
And it, it, it was literally like a magic carpet ride that
for me. And I, I just, I remember going
home and I told my parents, you know, I, I, I saw Kevin Topping
and, and, you know, told him the same story.
And I said, I think I'd like to go talk to the recruiter.
And my mom and dad were like, you know, go, man, go, go see
what's up. And I think it, you know, as
I've looked back on it, I think what I realized that it wasn't
necessarily the Army was my my calling as much as I realized,
you know, I got to do something on my own.
You know, I, I have to accomplish something.
I got to, I got to put one in a win column.
You know, I'm the youngest. I, I'm, I, my brothers and
sisters are, you know, just brilliant and smart and great
and awesome and they're awesome brothers and sisters.
And I'm like, I, you know, I'm the weakest lane kind of thing.
And and the Army seemed like to me knowing nothing, I literally
knew nothing really about the Army other than what have
learned, you know, the recruiter like that, that this could be
something that basic training is probably harder than, you know,
fraternity initiation. And you know, let me go see if
let me kind of go see if I can do it.
I think that was was, really, and not that I'm that dramatic A
thinker about my development as an 18 year old or 20 year old by
then, but I do remember thinking I got to do something hard and
the Army gave it to me. That's interesting.
You know, my, my dad is a Army captain retired like, you know,
the long before I was born or a few years before I was born.
And you know, I, I did hear a lot of he was in the Vietnam
area. He didn't serve in Vietnam, but
he was in Huntsville, AL doing like missile stuff.
And so he had like some experience and he had always
sort of like I talked to him about the military when I was
growing up because I wasn't like the most disciplined kid on
earth and didn't totally know what I was going to do.
And he he didn't like warn me off.
He was just like, I don't, I don't know.
I don't, I don't know that that's for you, Like, but
whatever, you know, and I had friends in high school who went
that route and that kind of thing.
And you know, some of my college buddies after college ended up
joining the military as well. But I completely understand that
mentality of like, I need to go do something hard and see if I
can do that, like see where my limits are, see what I can
accomplish. You know, especially when you're
192021 years old and you really want to kind of like, now's the
time. Yeah.
Let's go see what this is all about.
And you know, as you said, that was 878080. 8 The end of it I
did. I listed December 27th, 1987,
went to basic, you know, two days later, I think I was down
there for New Year's Eve. There you go.
But yeah, no, I didn't mean to cut you off, but it is.
It's like, you know, you need that, that need.
And listen, I, I, I, I know this about myself.
Back then, it wasn't particularly adventurous, not
that I necessarily AM, but I do think I, I, I did have a, a, a
pretty solid work ethic. And, and again, my academic
prowess wasn't what it was, but it wasn't a lack of effort.
And that I can say, and I think that's kind of important to the
story. Wasn't like, hey, I was just,
you know, boozing it. I mean, I drank a lot clearly,
like most kids did. But you know, I, I lived in that
library and people look at me like, yeah, you know what?
I'm sure you did. I'm like, no, I, I, I, I lived
in, in that library. And it, so it wasn't that, that
the lack of effort, it was, you know, it just didn't have the
skills. And I think that that was the
thing about the Army that that again, looking back on my entire
career that I love was that, you know, if you put in the effort,
you know, literally, if you, if you, if you follow the rules,
keep your nose above water, you know, do do the right things and
do it absolutely with everything you got, you can be successful.
And like, that's just, it doesn't mean you're going to be
in every single task, but it does generally speaking in that
institution. You will, you will do, you will
do well. And that was a great, I think
reinforcement for me that now I'm out on my own, this new
world. And, you know, the hard work,
the meritocracy pieces really do really do work.
And just as a quick footnote, I appreciate that, you know, there
are people out there listening like Matt, you know, the army
socks and blah, blah, blah. And it's, you know, crazy.
And I'm like, of course it is. It's a 500,000 person strong
bureaucracy that is goofy in so many ways.
And there's the toilet, $500 toilet, all that stuff.
But that's bell curve. You know that that is usually,
in my opinion, that's on the bell curve.
And if you get to the to the centre mass of it, you know,
that organization, it's only as good as people, but it lets it
it, it rewards, generally speaking, good effort, hard
work, and just, you know, great initiative.
Did it, did it kind of click for you right away after you, you
know, say you got through basic or whatever and did you think,
OK, I this is something that I think I can do.
Yeah, no, it did. And, and it's so funny and, and
this is a goofy story, but you know, the, you go to basic
training. We've all seen movies and TV
shows and you know, you're sleeping in this big open Bay in
your bunks and they, they show you how to, they show you how to
do everything, which is really quite brilliant when you think
about it, because a lot of people don't know how to make a
bed. Literally, that's the whole
story. Like they're like, this is
hospital corners on your bed. Well, you know, not to be like,
I'm so great because my mom showed me, but like I knew how
to do it. And it was like Pythagorean
Theorean, you know, standards of, of, of getting those, those
folds right. But like that all made sense.
All, you know, everything was written, all the rules, total
right angle stuff. And I'm like, now we're cooking.
I, I got it. I, I can, I can follow this
formula. The funny thing though, and I
thought about this so often, is that, and maybe that's true for
everybody, but I think, you know, once you learn the system,
once you learn, you know how to keep doing this like a right
angle, like AT square. You like, then you learn, OK,
you can, you can, you can widen the aperture a little more for
me and everything doesn't have to be, you know, absolutely 100%
by the rules in the sense of now we can we can we can open up
that range fan for you so that you can you, you individual
soldier can start making some decisions and you can take a
little bit of liberties of you know, how you're going to
accomplish a task. And it doesn't have to be
necessarily, you know, A-Z. You might only have to do, you
know, A to T and there might be some steps in in certain
circumstances. And again, keyword that you can,
you can hedge on, you can skip and you know, you found then now
the commanders that are giving you a lot of latitude and less
guidance and expecting you to, to move.
I guess that's the thing, you know, that, that allowing you to
move within wide, wide parameters.
I found myself really enjoying that part.
You know, you learn the basics really, really strictly, you
know, and the expectations also. But then you can, you can let
off those, you know, you can, you can open up the goal post or
whatever analogies were used and let that let, let people run.
And, and that I found really a cool, really exciting.
Of course, that's what the special operations community
really is about. It's, you know, balance between
both the, the really strict process and protocols to, you
know, incredible problem solving and individual thinking.
Anyway, I covered a lot of bases in there, sorry.
No, that's a, that's a perfect segue to where I wanted to go
next. Because I think a lot of folks
from the outside who, you know, watch movies and read books
about the military, you think about it as that rigid
institution that you describe, Matt, where you're like, here
are rules. You follow those rules.
And that's what you do every single day for X amount of
years. But in a situation like you were
in, you know, in in Somalia, in the battle of Mogadishu, that is
not a situation that followed any rules.
Like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong over and
over and over again. And you have to have some
critical thinking and problem solving skills to be able to
react. And, you know, anybody who's
Googled your name will, will know what your role was there.
But you were that was like your first leadership position,
right? Like you were a brand new leader
before you deployed to Somalia for that mission.
Yeah, no, it, it, it was. And and you know, the, the
interesting thing Dennis is, and again, there's plenty of holes
to shoot, you know, in the military in general, whatever
branch and and I got it and they're probably all correct.
Whatever anyone's experienced with a bureaucracy and you know,
and people, you know, sometimes it's the good old boy club, good
old girl club gone bad. Sometimes you bad people in
command and that sucks. But in general, again, going
back, you know, the thing that I found wonderful and I think was
so helpful was sort of build on what I just said a minute ago.
You've got this, this self licking ice cream cone of, of
accountability and responsibility, particularly in
the special operations world, but in the Army in general, that
that's constantly developing the young men and women to do.
You're being groomed to be the next level.
And the next day, like, you know, you're actually kind of
shunned and looked at with disfavor.
If you just want to be, you know, the professional private,
so to speak, you know, and again, it's, it's, it's the
triangle and all that meritocracy, blah, blah, blah.
But you know, if you're not trying to improve, you find that
you're, you're really not, you're not, you're really not
going to be in the club that long.
And so to just to bring that in, yeah, you know, you're, you're
learning as you go. And, and for me in, in
Mogadishu, you know, we, we've been in, in country for, you
know, a month and a half and, and done some missions.
And, you know, a couple of days before the end of September, my,
my chalk leader, the guy in charge of our helicopter got
called home on a on a Red Cross message.
You know, a Red Cross alert mom had been diagnosed with terminal
illness. And you know, it's the protocol,
like, you know, soldier goes and you go home, the next in the
chain of command, the next in the succession plan, you know,
steps up to be in charge. And that happened to be to be
me. And, and I, I think to the to
that point, it's funny, you know, out here, the difference
between that scenario I just described Dennis and, and you
know, real life out here where I remember we were at the beach.
I promise I'll come back to the Mogadishu store, but we're at
the beach right, Right after I retired.
I think. No, I guess it was right before
I, before I went to Iraq. It must have been because I had
two weeks leave. We were at the beach with
another two families and the, the two husbands were, were
finance guy. They were Wall Streeters in, in
New York and wives had all gone to school together.
That's how I got in that, that little club.
And it was fascinating talking about, you know, I'm on, you
know, my two weeks leave. So I'm, I'm enjoying every
second of every checked out. Like there's no, you know,
there's no army in me. And these two guys, you know,
are, are, are constantly there at the beach on the phone just
before we're all so nutty about cell phones, but they're on the
phone all the time. Got to leave the beach, leave
the kids got to go back to the house and and do something for
work. And I remember saying, like, you
know, dude, what's what's going on?
I can't somebody else do that. And he's like, no, you know, I
can't let anybody else do that. Then then then you know I'm out
of a job. Right.
Then my worth is diminished. Yeah, and.
And anyway, that whole thing, I was just like, that wasn't what
we were thinking, you know, in the military.
And for good reason, you know? So, yeah, you, you, you get
thrust into this role of, of, hey, man, it's time to go.
And I think falling back, if you dissect it, the training, you
know, the regiment of the training and the reason we do
the training to great standards, the right angle side of it, you
know, is what's going to pay off in a in a crisis.
You know, and I've learned this lesson, you know, that
standards, you know, high standards determine outcomes
before chaos like that. That's my pithy little quote of
the day. And I did, I realized like that
that's it because you're going to get in this position in a
Crucible experience, whether it's on a battlefield, on hawala
dig road or fill in the blank in whatever industry where there's
nobody to come save you literally and figuratively.
You know, if I can just paint this picture, Dennis for a
second, you know, I mean this October 3rd where we're going in
on this mission and I'm in charge and literally daylight
raid and, and on the, the insertion, we got put in the
wrong spot. One of my soldiers falls off the
fast rope, you know, falls down. I got immediate casualty.
My, my radios don't work. I can't communicate with the,
the commander. And in like 20 seconds, we're
automatically all of a sudden we're in a firefight.
You know, we're, we're taking fire, you know, literally from
three directions. And this all happens like again,
2030 seconds, you know, like you can't even, I remember thinking,
I can't even contemplate how all this stuff go wrong so quickly.
You know, there's not a training scenario like, hey, let's bury
this young soldier, you know, with so many mind boggling
challenges and let's just, you know, ha, ha, ha, watch him
struggle. Like, you know, maybe you do one
or two, but. Right, right.
You know, and, and this all leads back to this point that if
you're groomed, that it's all you and only you, if that's what
you really believe, one that's incredibly arrogant and you
know, so self-righteous and self-centered.
But on the other hand, that's the surefire recipe for disaster
because, you know, either, you know, you take one in the Peach
or you just have no control over the situation.
So you've got to figure it out. It's the whole the whole point
that's going to happen. It's going to happen in in
battle and it's going to happen in life and it's going to happen
in business. I think you only get out of it
by by by preparing, you know, by training and, and that that high
standard kind of stuff. Anyway, sorry to suck all the
oxygen out of the room. No, that's, I mean, that's
exactly what I was getting at. I think, you know, you mentioned
your, that your commander, your, your superior officer had been
called home for a medical emergency.
And so you were sort of thrust into this, you know, maybe it
would have happened six months later for, for you or something
like that, but you were kind of thrust into it.
And then a few days or weeks later you, you know, you fast
rope down a helicopter and everything goes to shit in 45
seconds. And you don't have that
commander to fall back on. You can't look around and be
like, wait, where's the adult? Oh, I'm the adult.
Uh oh. Like you have to be able to
react, right? Like you have to be able to your
men are looking at you, you have to have some answers for them.
A. 100% and, and I think that again, you know, so many lessons
I learned from that everybody does from at least you, you talk
to anybody else on that battlefield anywhere and
they've, they've got some very similar and some very different,
you know, experiences and lessons learned.
So again, I, I, I said earlier, I can only tell you what I, what
I learned, but what I learned there, and I think truly right
off the bat, what got me through was being in that, that moment
where I'm like, holy shit, I really don't know.
I don't have an answer. Like I, I, I am that adult, I'm
the grown up in the room. I don't have an answer and the
clock's ticking And oh, by the way, you know, when you start
thinking about it and it just starts to, to manifest itself.
And this idea like, man, the more I'm trying to to remain
calm and think that I got to do something, I don't have an
answer, the more, you know, excited I'm getting.
And you get to that point, at least again, me, pardon me, you
get to that point where you're like, holy shit.
If I don't, if I don't say something, you know, we're,
we're going to, we're going to fail, we're going to implode.
And that I can vividly picture it.
I was kind of standing in the middle of the street and it was
probably only for a few seconds, but it felt like, you know, time
just stops. And I was watching the guys, my
Rangers, you know, in the fight and Dennis, I swear it was just
like immediately I remember thinking like, man, we're going
to be all right. These guys, they're doing
exactly, exactly what they're supposed to do.
I mean, it might not be the perfect, you know, training
standards, but they're getting after it.
And these two, you know, 20 year olds and 21 year olds are, are,
are, are just duking it out with the enemy.
And I haven't said one thing to him.
I haven't given one command. No, nothing like they're on
autopilot. They're doing their jobs just as
they, just as they train, just as we rehearse, just as we
planned in the most challenging environment.
And I realized like, man, they're the, they're, I got the
easy part. They're they're the guys that
are that are fighting. All I got to do is just be a
problem solver. And this is an easy problem to
solve. I don't got to solve all of
them. I just got to solve the, the,
the, the, the, the, the most important, which is the loss of
life. And that like that changed the
whole, they, they changed the whole day for me.
And then again, certainly scary. Don't get me wrong.
My it's easy to be sound really brave, you know, in West Palm
Beach, FL. But you know that, that moment,
though, it wasn't me the, the, the, the leader in the org
chart, you know, it was a young Sergeant.
You know, it was the young special, like, you know, the
privates, the, the, the kids on the front line.
They, they were the centre of gravity and they, they did their
job. And like, you know, kind of
important lesson back to the beach.
And you know, the beach story. It's like, if you're in a
culture where it all depends on you, I'm like, who do you?
I don't want to be you and I certainly don't want to work for
you, because this is just bullshit.
That's exactly right. Yeah.
That whole idea of like one person being a single point of
failure in an organization, that's like, that's bad
organization, it's bad management.
It's arrogant thinking the way that you put it earlier, Matt,
like nobody else can do what I do.
Like I'm the guy, Like I'm the only one who can push this
button on the computer. Get out of here.
A million other people can do what you're doing.
You just happen to be in that job right now.
And you know, it's a completely different, you know, mindset
into what you're talking about on an actual battlefield.
But you know, if you're in that, that sort of self-centered,
arrogant mindset of like, I'm the most important part of this
whole equation, you're not going to be able to solve a lot of
problems because you're going to see everybody else is the
problem, you know, and you're not going to be able to look,
look outward and say like, oh, no, there's OK, I can actually
go help with that. And you're not just, you know,
yelling orders at everybody like you could have been, I'm sure.
Yeah, no, 100% and, and I will say just as the comma, but
because that exposes the other side, the bad side of of
military leadership in the hierarchy and the strict
protocols and the regimen and all that stuff is that you can,
I think inadvertently get to what you just described, Dennis,
because everybody, you know, the tyrant, you know, always, always
wins because the law, you know, is behind them.
And you know, you, you, you. And I'm sure we've seen it out
here in the civilian world, but certainly in the military, you
know, the the the reinforced negative, you know, nothing bad
happened under his or her watch. And they were in favor of
somebody because they're, you know, somewhat of a sycophant or
a lap dog or whatever. And, and the system works that,
that bad people do get promoted and you know, that, that 100%
does does happen. And, you know, it's unfortunate
and it sucks when it does because it kind of, you know,
ruins it for, for the rest of us.
But they start believing that, you know, I, I, you know, I am,
I am, I am the gift. In fact, I remember talking to
this, to this one retired Colonel and we're having a
leadership discussion and, and by no means folks, am I the, the
expert on, on any of this? Like not, but he was talking to
this group about, you know, kind of command philosophy or some
army, you know, way up here kind of stuff.
And they're like all doctrinally correct.
You know, I, I give them my blah, blah, blah.
And this is how we do mission planning and all that kind of
shit. And, you know, we're talking to
this group of civilians and the civilian asked a question, a
leadership question. Now he's talking up at a more
senior military level and I'm, you know, my level is down here
at the the ground at the tactical level where I'm
assuming this person asking the question is coming from.
And so the answer, as you might imagine, comes from, you know,
the senior command level, like kind of everybody does what I
say. And you know, you just call
them, you know, you, you just tell them, you know that they.
Need 'cause I said so. And Z and I'm like, hey, that
ain't going to work at, you know, Price Waterhouse Cooper
like that. They're going to, you know, say
no and and off you go. And I remember afterwards just
sort of floating it by like, hey, well, well, what happens if
you know, you know, Joe 6 pack says, yeah, I'm not, I'm not I'm
not buying that. And you know, looked at me like,
you know, how dare he? And I'm like, dude, you're
missing that what you're talking is not reality.
Like that's not how it works. You know, you're talking
comedian structure. And, you know, if you're asking
me about leadership at my level, I'm like, how do I get, how do I
get that, You know, that that whomever just asked that
question to follow me down the dark alley just so to speak,
Like that's the base. How do I get her to do that?
Because she doesn't want to. And if I hadn't had the
opportunity to train her and do all this kind of stuff
systematically, like in the military, how do I connect with
her and, and, and just get her to do her shit really well?
And you're in life. Two different theories.
And I think sometimes the Army promotes that when it's not
always that realistic. Anyway, just my, you know, my
$0.02. No, but I mean, I feel like the
the training side of that is what's important because like in
the situation that you were in in Mogadishu, like that's what
the training is for, right? Like you mentioned, your guys
just on their own knew what to do.
You know, these are 2021 year old guys in the worst situation
of their lives and probably hadn't been in that before.
They didn't totally know what to do, but they were like, OK,
instinct training this. I'm going to go here, he's going
to go there. We're going to figure this out
and, you know, that's what the training is for.
You fall back on that until, you know, then you can start solving
problems in some kind of sequence.
But yeah, in the civilian world, where did the leadership style
is? You know, because I said so
like, or because I'm 4 levels above you and I went to, you
know, Harvard ambient that, like you said, get out of here with
that. Like, tell me why.
Like give me, give me a reason why I'm supposed to, you know,
think that you're a leader or show me, you know, more
importantly, give me some evidence that you've actually
done something worthy of following.
And a lot of people just don't, you know, they kind of assume
that once they get into a management or leadership
position, the title confers all of the authority and and
responsibility that it that is necessary.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And and, and you know, and I
think it's at least again my, my experience coming out in my 40s
to the new world and, and again with my ideas of again, kind of
and, and not all 100% correct, but it's my only database which
to correct, you know, compare leadership to leadership, new
civilian, you know, leadership to that.
And not again, always fair, but in one sense it it should be.
And what you find out here is it took me a while to to figure it
out too. And again, this is a little
broad. So this is not like everybody
out here is bad. It's certainly not a work for
some amazing leaders out here. Just to, you know, cut to the
chase that I always say they're the ones that missed their
calling. Like would have been great to be
in the Rangers or the but you know what you find like a lot of
a lot of small companies, my experience has been, man,
somebody had a really great idea, like a really, really
brilliant, I'm talking to clearly entrepreneurial stuff
and which I love, you know, really great idea.
Absolutely just brick and hit it right over the green monster
just crushed it. Had the wherewithal to get some
smart people to help and off they go to the races.
They build this company and everybody wants to go and jump
in and whatever it is and they can't lead for shit.
You know, really good at whatever it is and you know,
really made a lot of dough and really always.
But as far as solving problems for their people and getting the
best out of their people, it's just like, hey, where you, you,
you, you either, you know, respect the salary or, or, or
beat it. You know, we, we have no
interest at all in helping you outside of these four walls as I
don't give one shit and just suck it up.
Whereas you've got 22 year olds, you know, that are, are
responsible for making sure that a 19 year old's paying his
bills, you know, and, and treating his.
And, and I'm not suggesting we got to go that far, but you can
see where I've got I, I, I care about you far more than just
being able to squeeze the trigger.
So in there I'm like, we have lost that out here, at least it
seems to me. No, I think you're right.
I've seen that 1000 times in the tech world where you have a
founder or a founding team that has this great idea and they get
it to a certain level. And then they need adult
leadership to come in and say, OK, we got it from here.
You know, you guys can, you can be the chief engineer or
whatever, but you're not ACEO anymore.
Like you, you got us from one employee to 40 or whatever.
Here come the adults and some founders are like, oh, thank
God, good. I want to just go build this
thing again. Some lose their minds and fight
and those companies typically don't make it.
But you know, it's it's a tough, you know, come to Jesus type
thing for everybody. Some people are relieved and
some people are like, no way, this is my company.
Like you see, that's it's me, like I am the company.
But if you're, you know, if you want the organization as a whole
to succeed, you can't, you can't really hold on to that that
tightly. No, no, and, and, and again, I,
you know, far be it for me to can't see anybody's soul, but I,
I just, my experience has been then on that other lens, Dennis,
where somebody, oh, you know, Matt's the leader of that
company. It's like, oh, Matt's an idiot.
You know, again, Matt's got a lot of dough.
Matt, you know, he's the guy you just talked about.
So we're like, man, that guy's leadership.
He, he, he's hit. I'm like, no, he's not.
He's he's horrible. Like would you want to follow
him down the alley? Which again, quite unfair, A
litmus, but enamour like wow, but he made a shit ton of dough
and and that's that's the name of this.
Again, you all want to, but you're going to work for this
clown. Like literally, you know, on the
promise that maybe you're you're really going to hit a pig with
Joe. By the way, you're not because
he's never going to let you. You know he no.
Absolutely. Going to let you though, he's
just going to squeeze you until you're, you're just dry and Gee,
anyway, I, I, I, you know, it's just an interesting thing,
Dennis, this whole idea, which I think if I take a really big
leap, you know, so many times I, I, I just keep thinking it's
like my wife says to this when, when, when something, you know,
unpleasant happens. So you have some unpleasant
experience with another human, you know, in this case, we'll
talk about it Work. You're like, you know, just
people being people, You know, they're just people being
people. The arrogance, the rudeness,
the, you know, suddenly, you know, it seems more often the
bad behaviour, but it really is the bad behaviour.
And, and, and I think so often it's like, man, just, you know,
follow the golden rule folks. I mean, if you've got to an
organization and you understand the mission, regardless of any
kind of org chart, you know, if you just understand the mission
and you're like, I, I, I give a shit about the I'm sorry, my
mouth should be washed. Please.
You know, we just, I really actually do care about the
people on my left and right. Theoretically, the thing should
run and and I don't understand how now in the military again,
I'd love it, but has has has weaponized this idea that you
can be a friendly leader like truly.
And I got to tell a quick story this.
Please. Because, you know, I got to,
when I got to Iraq in, in 2006, you fly into everybody, you fly
into Kuwait playing in the middle of the night.
And, you know, so the bad guys can't see it.
And you get off the plane and it's about a 5,000,000° and you
get in these buses, these school buses and all the school bus,
you know, like old, you know, school bus, they have all
curtains on the inside. So again, apparently the bad
guys at midnight can't, you know, see the gringo sitting in
his seat and you leave the, the, the airfield to go to, you know,
the cantonment area, wherever they've got the, the barracks.
You're going to stay in Kuwait for a couple of days.
And anyway, as you're leaving the airfield in this bus,
they've got Serpentine barriers, you know, these big Jersey
cement. You see them on the side of the
highway and they're staggered. So, you know, the suicide bomber
can't just drive in. You got to you got to do really
broad, you know, S turns to go out about, you know, a mile an
hour. It's just brutal.
And I'm sitting here by the window and I'm, I'm peeking out,
you know, through the curtains and I'm noticing that on each of
these Jersey barriers, someone had a good idea that we're going
to stint. Someone in the military said
we're going to stencil, you know, some pep talk, you know,
catch phrase or something. And you know, it's like, you
know, check your magazines and drink water and all, you know,
you're like, OK, you know, reminder that we send a message
and all that kind of shit. And then there's this one, I'll
never forget it said we need leadership, not likership.
And I'm like, you know, I just want to stick a knife in my
temple because it's like somebody and then somebody at a
senior level said this is a good idea.
And, and it was, you know, we, we, you got to be strong, man.
It's going to be hard. And you know, you can't just
sweet talk your way. I mean, I, I get that on one
sense, but on the other, it's the license to give people to be
assholes. And it's like, you know, you
have to do what you say by law, as long as it's not illegal,
unethical or immoral. And if you don't, I'm just going
to yell at you even louder, you know, and and that's the
solution. I've watched it a million times
and you're like, you know, this guy is really going to want to
follow you down the dark alley. To which I'd also say to people,
Dennis, I'm like, hell yeah. I'd like them to like me.
I'm going to enforce the rules, of course, but I'm not going to
let anybody slide. But I'd really like them to like
me because when I do run down there, you know, in the middle
of the night with my gun and my flip flops because we got to go,
I hope that they're trying to beat me.
Like, I hope that they're like, I, I, I want to follow that
Eversman guy because he, he's a good dude and he treated me
well. You know, that's just, I don't
understand that. I don't either.
Yeah. Like, this is the thing that
I've, like tried to instill in my kids from the time they were
little. Life is so much easier if you're
not an asshole. Just like be nice, do what
you're supposed to do. Life will be so much simpler.
Like, it just it it sounds so simplistic.
And you know, Polly and whatever, it's just true.
Like whatever organization you're in or whatever team
you're on or situation you're in.
Don't. Be a jerk.
Dennis, I, I, I hate to do this, but I got to throw a question to
you and because, because it's on the tip of my tongue, like, why
do you think people do that? Like why do you, you know,
you're in a, you've been, you're in, you got a, you got 25 LB
brain folks around you all the time, really smart, really
talented, really. I mean, I, I, I know that group
in a sense, I don't understand it, but I do know that group.
You know, you must see it. You know, the arrogance, the
assholes, and of course there's great people, but why do you
think you'll like that? Is there?
Should their parents be beaten or what is it?
Some of it I do think is like insufficient parenting on some
level, but also I think once some of these folks in it, this
is not a blanket statement or by any means, But for some people,
once they have that first kind of real taste of success and
it's something that they created or did, or, you know, they're,
they're primarily responsible for that success.
They get it in their heads that they, you know, they just can't
fail or, you know, they are the, the big Wiz.
They're they're it and they can't be disabused of that
notion. No matter, no matter how many
failures they might stack up later.
They're they just have that mentality of like, it's me, man.
I'm the one, you know, it's, it's something you see in
professional athletes. I think by, by they have to have
it because otherwise they wouldn't keep going back out
there. You know, it wouldn't make any
sense if they didn't think they were going to succeed again.
But yeah, it's a weird thing. And it's, you see it in all
walks of life too. I'm positive you saw it plenty
of times. But yeah.
And again, it's not trying to be, you know, like we're all
unicorns and, you know, fairy dust kind of stuff.
But I think your your comment about, you know, what you tell
your kids and I almost would go so far.
Maybe I would not almost, I would say like if you can't do
that, like if you can't just treat people well and just not
be an asshole, You know, you're you're you're setting yourself
up for an incredible fall whenever it's going to be, but
it will happen because sooner or later you're going to come
across a bigger asshole and he or she's going.
To yes. Going to make it hurt and.
It's the same with bullies. You know, there's always a
bigger bully, like somebody's somebody's meaner.
I, I think everyone gets so dramatic in their pendulum shift
and they're like, oh, you know, you're just, you know, you, you,
you're just being a softie and you're not enforcing standards.
And lots of like, no, not that. I'm just just like, we spend
more time with these people than we do the people.
We, we, we're married to our spouses, our partners and our
kids. Wouldn't it be nice to make
that, you know, 8/10/12 hours of just a little bit more
enjoyable? Yeah, not an absolute like death
March. Yeah, it would be.
It would be great, but I did want to, I wanted to go back a
little bit to the, to the Mogadishu thing, everybody, you
know, sorry I took this. I took this generomo.
No, This is why this is what I wanted to talk to you about.
But you know, everybody's aware of the movie Black Hawk Down in
the book and all that kind of stuff.
You know, they were awesome. I loved them both.
What was your initial reaction when you, when you and your,
your friends and, you know, teammates heard like, oh,
there's going to be a book coming out?
Obviously I know you're involved in the writing of the book and
all that kind of stuff. But was it far enough after the
fact where you're like, OK, now I've got some perspective on
this? Or was it still like a little
too fresh in your mind where you're like, I don't know, man.
Like I remember what happened, but I'm not.
I don't know that I have any broad thoughts about it.
So this is this is, it's a great question because in 2026 with,
you know, or, or, or our media and the, our ability to do all
of the technology that we have, everything's real time,
everything's fast, it happens and all this stuff, you know,
this is the battle happened in 1993 as a reference and sometime
in 1994 ish, I can't remember exactly right.
I'm walking into to, to work to the third range of battalion and
the, the company commander is standing on the front steps as
I'm, I'm walking literally in it at 5:30 and whatever time in the
morning, you know, and give him the salute and greeting And he's
like, yeah, B Sergeant and everything be in the, the
conference room at, you know, at 09 because there's, there's a
journalist that wants to talk to some, some of you.
You're like, you know, yes, Sir. OK.
And show up at 09. And it's this guy named Mark
Bowden and public affairs officers and, and I promise the
story will make sense in a SEC. We sit down and apparently we we
talked for a couple of hours. You know, he and I didn't, there
were probably 568 Rangers that Bowden had gotten permission to
speak to. And I was one of them and did
this long interview. And I remember he turned on a
tape recorder and can I just started talking and poor guys
eyes are like rolling back in his head and you know, left and
sort of went on to training and that was that.
Never thought about it, never heard from him, nothing 0 like
that. Was that probably in I think it
was in if it was December, it was either like December of 1996
or December of 1997, one of the two.
And this thing called the Internet had just come out.
Like it just literally came out and I'm walking into work again
and one of these these little nerdy privates is like starting
everyone. I can hear your voice on the
radio. What the fuck are you talking
about? Pardon me.
And and this Philadelphia Inquirer where Mark Bowden work
had set up a website and they were publishing 1 chapter each
day. And I don't even think it had a
title, but it was about the battle in Mogadishu.
That was it. And, you know, it was being
simultaneously printed in all the Knight Ridder newspapers.
And they were. Doing.
Online and I didn't have a computer then, didn't even know
what 1 and why anybody would have such a thing and I'm like
this. Poor kid sounds great.
Was a hacker, he probably the pastor probably stole something
and I didn't get the newspaper because, you know, I'm 27 or 28,
whatever it is. And anyway to land the whole
plane, knock on my door in my apartment that weekend and a
buddy of mine comes in and he drops the Philadelphia Inquirer
on the floor. And I'm like, what the hell.
He's like, man, you're on the front page.
And sure enough, that was the the what turned out to be the
book Black Hawk Down came out, you know, right there in this
newspaper. And this is all long winded
thing to answer your question, I had totally forgotten about the
interview. I mean, I certainly feel events
that were always, you know, I'd totally forgotten about the
interview And, and, and I remember like looking at it, I'm
like, huh, that's interesting. I, I, I wonder if anybody will
read it. Like that was my first time.
I wonder if anybody will read it.
And the server on the Philadelphia Inquirer website
crashed that day because there were so many, there were like
250,000 hits and you know, like the first two minutes and just,
you know, blew the whole thing up.
And, and it's sort of a fun story, but the, the idea was
like, you know, at that time we were like, hey, history, it's
done like that. That really aim to kind of cut
to the cheese that we were like, wow, man.
Like, I mean, that's cool and all, but you know, we're, we're
focused on now we're focused on the next mission.
And I remember, you know, reading in it again, thinking, I
don't even remember this dude. I don't even remember this guy.
This Internet stuff doesn't make any sense.
And sure enough, about a year later, all of a sudden the the
the book came out. And then, you know, it just
became, and I must admit it, a little strange for me, being the
first guy mentioned in the, the book and then being a character,
for whatever reason they chose to be in the movie kind of gives
me a unique circumstance that it's, it's just wild.
I guess the, the, the, the final comment, at least to, to that
question, though, is personally, you know, I, I, I made peace
with the experience in Mogadishu really early on, like, you know,
went through the grief of losing soldiers and friends, processing
all that, you know, young, we don't normally talk about
mortality as as young men and women and maybe even as old men
and women. We don't.
But you know, going through all that, that trauma of, of battle,
you know, I'm very thankful that, that I was able, I
believe, to process and deal with and, you know, kind of spit
out the bad and keep the good and all that kind of stuff.
So when this all came out, it wasn't at all like, Oh my gosh,
you know, the, the, the memories.
I mean, yeah, there's some sad stuff.
Then you revisit. But it also was like, man, those
guys are pretty freaking brave. Holy shit.
Look at what these guys. Yeah.
And I'm learning about what other guys did on the
battlefield because, you know, you know, all I know really
first hand is the stuff, you know, in my, my so that was, I
found it on the other hand to be like, it's fascinating.
That's the really interesting part to me, Matt, I just read
this past week your first hand account, the Battle of Mogadishu
book that has your account in several other soldiers who were
there that day or the following days too.
And that was my one of my main takeaways was they all had their
sort of like pie piece view of what happened that day, you
know, which makes complete sense.
But when you read the book or you read, they do such a nice
job of tying all the narratives in, like orienting you around
the city of like, OK, Matt's unit is here now and the crash
site is over here and the convoy is doing this.
So you have like this large picture in your head.
But like you said for you, you were like, I saw this four way
intersection. That's what I saw.
And then I was in a Humvee and then I saw that.
And then I was on the airfield and it's all just.
So when you read the book or you know, have you seen the movie?
I know that's a crazy question, but have you watched the movie?
I have and you know it. It was one of those I I I can't
don't want to be a weasel, but I, I got to see the first
private screening up up at new up in Sony headquarters in New
York by myself. Oh, cool.
Yeah. No, it was, it was really pretty
cool. And I remember like, it was
walking into this, as you might imagine, what a screening room
at Sony headquarters in New York looks like.
It's it is that cool? At least it wasn't.
And I remember getting ready to sit down in the seat, you know,
by myself. And it dawned on me, like, man,
what? What happens if this thing
sucks? You know, like.
Really. Like, you know, I'm getting
like, you know, there's a character forever named Matt
Eversman. Yeah.
Is just going to be there. And if this, if, if this, if
they flubbed it, you know, this is Barney Fife Eversman, you
know, like this. And I remember really being
being nervous. And then they opened the thing
up and man, 3 hours later, I'm sitting on the front of my seat.
I mean, truly sitting on the front of my seat.
And I, I, again, it's hard to be objective and I appreciate why
somebody would say that, you know, really can't listen to
Matt on this. But if I could be somewhat
objective, I, I, I would say I think it's very authentic and I
think they did a very good job. As close to being real as
Hollywood can be given, you know, the movie formula.
Cause. And I also had the benefit of,
of, of talking to, to Jerry Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott
about how they make movies. And, you know, I got to go to
the set and listen to, you know, hey, they, they can only, you
can't tell an 18 hour gunfight in 18 hours.
You got to condense it and you can only have a couple of
characters. So we got to got to mold some
together. Like there's a formula that they
follow. And sure, I, I, I will say I, I,
I did, I think they did, I think they did a, a good job.
And the fact that here it is 20, I came out in 2001, December of
2001. So 25 years later, it's still
you walk on a plane and I'm, I'm seeing somebody watching on the
plane and I'm like, yes, it's almost, I, I feel like I should
say something, but I don't, I just got to sit back.
And if they only knew. That's another question.
It's, it's interesting. I, it's a really good movie.
I and I remember at the time it came out, I was, I don't know,
2829 when it came out. And I remember thinking like
this is one of the best like of these type of movies.
And I knew it was really Scott. So I knew it would be great.
And I was like, this is really, really good, but I didn't know
I'd read the book. But you never know, like what's
real and what's a composite character and that sort of
thing. But to hear your experience
getting to talk to the director and the producers and you know
that private screening, that's, that's a really kind thing I
would assume that they did for you because.
Yeah. Sitting at a crowded theatre
would not have been much fun for you, I can't imagine.
Yeah, it, I eventually got to go see it in crowded theatres
because every one of your friends was like, hey, I want to
watch it with you. I'm waiting to watch it with
you. And.
Oh my God, it's not like it's not a ROM com that we're going
to see. I I mean, I bet I saw it easily
a dozen times at theaters and business.
But and again, I loved every minute of it because your
friends that care and want to do it with you.
But what I was going to say, you know, about the, you know, the,
the movie folks with and this I think is worth worth singing out
loud too, because I went out prepared to completely hate all
the Hollywood people. Of course, go ahead.
That I am. And I'm like, you know, you
know, you know, Hollywood super liberal match, super
conservative, and you know, we don't nary the two shall meet.
And, you know, just all that knucklehead stuff.
And certainly there's a little bit of truth in both sides.
But I got to tell you from day one, from literally the first
time that I walked into Jerry Bruckheimer's office at his
invitation to come out and, and see the, the, the first draft of
the the screenplay till the couple of premiere movie
premieres we were invited to. They were nothing but
professional, like truly and not being patronizing, not being,
you know, like saccharine, you know, here's our our army guys
and let's just be. No, they were just they, they
treated certainly me nothing but professionally and kindly.
And yeah, I, I, I, I, I walked away like wow, man, I this shame
on me again. Shame on me for, for being that
guy. And also, wow, talk about
creative, like that whole group, it's like the most creative
people in the world. And they all work hard.
They all work so freaking hard. I mean, everybody in that
industry works hard, at least what I saw on on a movie set,
which was kind of new, kind of cool.
Oh yeah, making a movie looks like an absolute nightmare
experience. Like it looks so hard.
Yeah, just in the movie, let alone something like that.
It it's like the, you know, it's like a military operation.
I mean, it really is, you know, and Ridley Scott and Jerry are
the generals. But then, you know, and they're,
they're doing great things up, up, up high, but then down low,
you know, they've got the Sergeant major just cracking
heads keeping people in mind and, you know, jerking and not
in the ass of the actor. It's like, Hey, I don't give a
shit who you are. You're you're doing what I say.
You're like, oh, wow, that guy's that guy's kind of scary.
That was cool. It really was cool.
That's that's a podcast for for another day.
There's so many cool things to to talk about the movie set,
but. Oh, I'm sure.
I mean. Then they were so kind.
They they really were. And to this day, I always got a
soft spot for for Jerry Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott for
sure. That's great to hear.
I love that and it I'm sure it doesn't hurt that Josh Hartnett
played you. So, you know, that's, that's not
tough. Shocking comparison, you know,
with me and I, I will say again, lovely young guy.
Couldn't have been, couldn't have been more more friendly.
It was a little awkward, as you might imagine, for both of us.
Like I'm sure. It's just really strange that
this guy goes out with, you know, at the time was like, I'm
dating Scarlett Johansson and I'm not, you know, you're like,
wow, this this guy is like my hero.
But he was very kind. Josh was was was wonderful.
And he I think he did again, how can I be objective?
But I think he did that a good job.
I mean, the character, again, at the end of the day, I'm like, I
don't look at it and be like, oh, man, that's sort of nervous,
man, you know, horrible. I'm like, no, you know, I mean,
a couple of things that anyone knows me knows that's it's not
quite my personality, but it, it was for the movie and for the
role. It it, it worked.
And yeah, far more good than than any bad.
And if there is any bad, it's it's minuscule shit.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the the movie still
holds up 25 years later. It's, you know, the story is
there and it's, you know, realistic from, you know, it's a
layperson's point of view. And yeah, it's, it's really well
done. It's it just sounds like a
completely surreal experience seeing you know you're you're a
someone playing you on a on a 60 foot movie screen.
It's it's it is, it's buffoonery.
There's no doubt about it. But you know, it also fair to
say too, and and again, I'm I know I'm not the expert film
critic or anything, but I've told people a million times
since then. I'm like, you know, if you want
to know what urban battles like, watch that movie.
Like at least regardless of storyline, what watch the movie.
It's that, you know, frenetic, it's that chaotic Ridley Scott
purposely made the volume, made it louder to the point that, you
know, because he wanted people to to really feel it.
And, you know, all the bad things that happened are are
legitimately all the bad things that happened.
And so if you want to know, you know, you could you could say to
somebody, hey, man, what would you have done?
Whether you're saying that in a yeah, you know, don't be a
Monday morning quarterback or hey, it's really hard.
What I mean, what would you have done?
I, you know, guys are running on the roof with RPG.
What what do you do? How do you how do you combat
that? You know, so that that movie, I
think does have a legit purpose specifically to that because of
that battle was so unique. And then it was played out, you
know, in, you know, 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan too, you
know, in very similar environment.
So I think it it does give you a visual.
I am shocked at how many, you know, how many soldiers in
particular. But people in general will, will
say, like, you know, grandmother will come up to me.
And it's like, that's my grandson's favorite movie.
I'm like, well, you know, how old's your grandson?
Like he's 10. What?
Like what are you? Doing What are we doing?
No, I mean, but yeah, no, a lot of people just and God love
them, but I find it just it's it's it's well done.
It's really well. But I I can't say it's my
favorite movie, but. I I would think not.
It's Yeah, it it seems like one of those things it is cool to
have done. Like, it's cool that it exists,
but you probably don't want to sit down on a Saturday afternoon
and watch it again. Yeah, Yeah.
Well, well, would, would you? You know, we, we showed it to my
daughter. We're blessed with I was going
to ask you that and we. We sort of, you know, Molly
would didn't, really couldn't figure it out until, you know,
she got a little bit older and older and she knew the story.
But we said like, yeah, we're, we're, we're we're not going to
watch it And, and until, you know, the right time and when
you watch it, you're going to watch it with mom and dad.
And, you know, I think it was when she was 15.
I think of 15, we watched it together for the first time.
And, you know, as you can imagine how dramatic that might
be, it was just that and, you know, very great family moment.
But, you know, she's like, yeah, I don't need to see it again.
Like, and my wife's the same thing.
She's like, yeah, I don't need to see it again.
I'm like, I hear you. I do, but people, people, people
who it's, you know, just, you know, sort of divorce myself
from the reality. I just find it interesting like
because it's I tell people all the time when they that haven't
seen it, I'm like, you know, it's not a happy movie.
I mean, sure, there's depictions of incredible courage and
bravery and tenacity and all this it resolve of the fighting
man and woman and all that stuff, but you know, it's not,
you know, you got to be in the right mind to be uplifted.
Yeah. The end of it all, and
certainly, you know, that's the theme is all very uplifting, but
it's, it's, it's, it's tragic, you know, I mean, it's just just
reality of combat and combat sucks.
Combat's evil, scary and sad. Yeah, having never gone through
that, I was struck by your in that first person account that
you wrote early on in that you talk about how, you know, you,
you were kind of eager to like go to combat in like that's a,
you know, a very common mindset in the young soldier of like, I
want to go and test myself in this way.
I'm curious what your, you know, reaction was after that.
You mentioned that you had been on submissions previous to, you
know, the events of October 3rd. But I I'm curious what your what
your mindset was afterwards? Yeah, well, you know, it's a
couple of things that come through and they all seemingly
might be pulling in opposite directions.
Could you realize, I guess in no particular order, Dennis, you
know, what I realized is like, you know, they're they're bad
people out here, evil people, enemies that that want to do us
harm. And we need we need to fight
them. Like that's there's just new two
ways about it. We need a force that's willing
to go and, you know, and fight like that.
There's no, that's it. And that I got, and I also
realized like, man, you know, it's an imperfect science and
you only learn by doing it, you know, being you, you only learn
how to get better by by by doing it.
And, you know, you think about all the mistakes that were made.
And I'm talking about just me, my mistakes, man.
You know, I, I, I wish somebody would have told me some of this
stuff before. You know, I never talked to any
guys that have been to combat before.
And even though I surrounded by him and all these guys in the
Rangers that have been to Panama, you know, and jumped in
and that been in fights, you know, I was too, too nervous or
intimidated to ask him. And for whatever reason, nobody
felt like they was worth sharing.
And after this battle on October 3rd, you know, guys that have
been to both of them said, man, you know, I thought Panama was,
you know, blah, blah, blah. And then this, this just was 10
times different. I'm like, well, shit, that would
have been good to know. And then I think I also realized
like, you know, and this took a little longer to figure out, but
it was like, man, I hope that whoever is in charge, you know,
is doing this for doing this, meaning sending us, you know,
they better be doing for a good reason.
Because when you got to go home and introduce yourself to a 23
year old widow and explain to her or him in this case, you
know, in the current time, but you got to explain to them, you
know, we've just turned your world completely upside down
forever. And it was worth it because.
And some people might have a very stock answer for that.
I find that to be really challenging sort of in the don't
be an asshole, you know, category.
Like, you know, you can't bullshit this person.
If you do, you're a bad person. But so how do you how do you
justify, you know, that to to a young widow?
And sometimes you can like, hey, man, he he died protecting
somebody. Like I can tell you when he took
his last breath, he did this and that was that.
And they're like cool. But then when you look and you
Fast forward, you know, go for further Dennis, you know, and
you're like, say, for instance, at the at the beginning, back to
our favorite strategic world, you know, like so we left 19
bodies, you know, 19 bodies of, you know, blood on the streets
of Mogadishu. And it's no better off today.
You know, that's the kind of the answer is we need strong
defense. We need people that want to
fight and we kids to protect and serve 100% then some.
But man, if you're going to use them, the people that are going
to use them better have their shit straight.
And I'm not sure that all of them in concert always do.
And now that we got to go down the whole political rabbit hole,
I don't mean to, you know, we all have our opinions, but
universally, when you ask, you know, what to learn, what do you
take away at Mike? Yeah, man, it's easy to talk a
big game until you've been shot at.
And some people once is enough and call it a day.
And I don't blame them. And other people are like, hey,
man, no, I, I despite all that, I still want to.
I still want to serve. And and I wanted to continue
serving. And so I went up doing, you
know, 20 years and, and a couple extra months.
But I did, I think everybody would tell you it's, it's scary
and it's, it's not, it's no fun when you see, you know, a friend
of yours get get hurt or killed. There's just nothing cool,
nothing sexy, nothing. All that stuff goes out the
window and you're like that. That's a really tough, that's a
bitter pill to swallow. And sadly, it's a reality of
that profession. Yeah, I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to bring us all the way down.
I asked the question. I'm the idiot you.
Know, it's serious business too, you know, and it's not something
we can take lightly and it's not, you know, it just isn't.
And I think sometimes, again, over, you know, decades, we've
gotten a little numb to it. You know, we citizens have
gotten a little numb to American sons and daughters being out in,
you know, in in tough spots for us.
And they are today, I mean, real time.
It's, it's almost 5 of, you know, 6IN in Mogadishu.
And we got people out there fighting Al Shabaab, you know,
get after it and God love him for it.
But hopefully it's hopefully they get home safely.
Anyway, That's, that's, that's a long, long answer to your to
your question, my friend and I, I'm sorry.
Not at all. No.
I mean, yeah, I Yeah. Well, I think that's probably a
great place to end it. Matt, I I can't thank you enough
for all your time. And, I mean, this was an
absolute honor to have you on here and to get to hear your
story and hear your your lessons and hear your thoughts on
resilience and leadership. And you know how you've gone
about that in your career. Thank you so much for your time.
Yeah, well, Dennis, thank you. And again, I know an unlikely
guest, you know, in the cyber world, but I do appreciate you
having, having me on and thank you for for all you're doing.
And yeah, man, it's it's it's it's a good day.
It's a good way to spend the morning.
I appreciate the the fun conversation.
Good questions. All right.
Thanks a lot, Matt. Take care of yourself.
Hi buddy, be safe. You too.