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Hello, and welcome to the 
Decipher Podcast. 

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I'm Dennis Fisher. 
I'm really honored and thrilled 

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today to have as my guest Matt 
Eversman. 

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For folks that don't know, Matt 
is a author, a speaker, 

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leadership consultant, and a 
retired First Sergeant in the US

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Army. 
Matt, thanks so much for being 

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here. 
Dennis, you are very kind and it

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was a very thoughtful 
introduction and I am happy to 

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to share some thoughts about 
whatever it is, whatever journey

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we're going to go on today. 
But I just appreciate you being 

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so thoughtful to invite me. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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I, I reached out to you a few 
weeks ago because I just watched

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a, a video interview that you 
had done where you spoke about 

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kind of your, your whole journey
from, you know, you're growing 

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up in Virginia, sort of your 
college years, deciding to 

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enlist in the Army and then what
came after that. 

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And it was really fascinating to
me. 

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So I wanted to kind of start 
there. 

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I know you didn't have like a, a
straight line to the Army like 

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some folks do, you know, 
enlisting out of high school. 

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Had you like, what did you when 
you were growing up in kind of 

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central Virginia? 
What did you sort of think you 

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were going to do if you had any 
thoughts? 

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Like, did you think, like, you 
know, I'm going to go to college

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and then I'll get a job and, you
know, I'll figure it out. 

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Almost at broad, I mean, truly. 
And it's funny looking back on 

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it, my wife and I have this 
discussion all the time about 

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how, you know, how our parents 
with their mindset was versus, 

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you know, now real time what we 
are with our 23 year old 

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daughter and kind of going back.
And, you know, the the short, 

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short answer was or, or whatever
the future was going to be for 

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me, which is something I do 
later. 

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Like it literally like 
everybody's like, yeah, you're 

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going to talk to your buddies. 
Like you're going to fly in F16.

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I'm going to be in the Marine 
Corps. 

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I'm going to do that. 
And you're like, yeah, that's 

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cool. 
It's sort of like, OK, I think 

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I'm going to do that sometime. 
And but it was only some time. 

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There's nothing definite in my 
life. 

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It was always just a vague 
notion. 

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And it's the youngest of four, 
you know, when it came time to, 

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to leave high school and 
graduate college, I really had 

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no earthly idea. 
And I, I, I, maybe I had a 

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little, but nothing much more 
than I should go to college 

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because my siblings did, you 
know, like that. 

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That's the, that's the, the 
natural line of drift. 

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And I wound up at, at, at 
Hampton Sydney College in 

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central Virginia, which is a 
great school and a story for 

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another day, maybe later. 
But even there it was. 

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Now what do I do? 
And the thought of, well, you 

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know, I, I, I, I don't know what
I like, what I want, what I'm 

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good at, all that kind of shit. 
Pardon me. 

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And it just wound up being like,
well, I guess I ought to be a, 

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an economics major because my 
dad was a businessman. 

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And, you know, but, and my idea 
that sometime I'll just to land 

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a plane, I'm going to go back to
Natural Bridge and I'll, I'll, 

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I'll take over from my parents 
and run there their hardware 

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store in their lumber yard. 
Like that was about as close to 

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any semblance of order and plan 
that I could have even dreamed 

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up. 
And that's probably given myself

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a little bit of credit. 
Well, I think, you know, when 

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you're 17 or 18 years old and 
you're looking at college, or if

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you're not going to college, you
know you're going to do 

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something else. 
The idea that you're supposed to

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know what you want to do for the
next 30-40 fifty years is kind 

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of insane. 
You know, like even trying to 

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figure out what you want to 
study in college is really 

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difficult because you know, and 
for the most part, you don't 

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have these paths in high school 
where they sort of say, oh, 

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well, if you like writing, go do
this or if you like science, go 

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do this. 
And everybody gets to college 

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and they're like, well, I guess 
I'll be a business major. 

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Like you said, economics. 
I don't really have any other 

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idea unless you have like a real
special, you know, I want to go 

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to Med school or, you know, 
something like that. 

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It's, you know, asking, 
especially an 18 year old boy 

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like like you or I was like, 
what do you want? 

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I don't know. 
I want to go meet some girls. 

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Exactly. 
I mean, I'm drinking beer and 

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playing in mud puddles. 
That's what I I the the 

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occasional eraser, you know, my 
wife and I really and it wasn't 

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very it was just like this 
continuous conversation we've 

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had and I know I'm jumping 
forward about just that. 

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And then and, you know, because 
I realized after, you know, 

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cratering at at Hampton Sydney 
after three years, you know, 

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look back and of course your 
first thing is like, man, I'm an

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idiot, I'm stupid. 
I'm you know, all those things. 

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And I'm like, yeah, there are 
some things I just don't get. 

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Like I just macroeconomic theory
just doesn't, you know, it 

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doesn't fit. 
It doesn't mean I'm dumb. 

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It just means I, I didn't really
have aptitude for it. 

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And that kind of was when I 
started thinking, which is will 

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be a later discussion, I'm sure 
in this conversation about like 

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you, you know, I can't quite be 
so bold to say there's no such 

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thing as failure because clearly
there is by definition. 

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But this idea like, you know, I,
I didn't have the aptitude and I

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certainly didn't have the 
maturity and I didn't have all 

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these things when I was 18 years
old. 

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And, you know, there was so much
expected and, and to a degree 

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rightly so, Dennis, you know, 
but it was like, man, if you 

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mess this one up, buddy, you 
know, you're, you're going, 

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you're going over the Cliff into
the chasm, never to be seen 

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again. 
And you know, your your life is 

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done. 
And and that's how we all kind 

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of well, certainly how I felt. 
And maybe we, we drifted a 

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little too far, you know, with 
our daughter. 

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I don't think we did, but we're 
like encourage her. 

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If you're good at filling the 
blank in school and you want to 

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study that what, why not? 
You know, I don't want to go be 

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a neurosurgeon, A 
neuroscientist. 

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I again, those gifted kids do 
it. 

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But you know, for the rest of 
us, it's like, man, you know, I,

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I love history. 
Go study history and don't 

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listen to all the people like, 
well, you'll never make any 

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money, you know, doing that. 
You know, that's just again, 

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industrial age logic. 
That is, is stupid, but I 

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digress. 
I apologize that that was a long

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winded answer to your question 
about where. 

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I thought to myself where where 
I thought I was going. 

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But that's, I mean, I think 
you're exactly right there, 

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Matt, because like when I was 
going to school, like I knew I 

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wanted to be a writer. 
And, you know, I had taken some 

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journalism classes in high 
school and thought, OK, this is 

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cool. 
And so that's what I studied in 

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college. 
And I do remember my dad who was

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an engineer and, you know, my 
mom was a teacher, but my dad 

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was like, what the hell are you 
going to do as a journal? 

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And how are you going to make 
money? 

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That's cool that you're a good 
writer. 

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We love that. 
How will you make money as a 

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journalist, especially in, you 
know, like the early 1990s when 

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I was getting out of college, 
you know, now it's a completely,

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there's different paths. 
But back then it was like, you 

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go find a job in a newspaper, 
then you get a job at a bigger 

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newspaper and then hopefully 
that continues, right? 

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And you're still not going to 
make any money. 

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So it was just kind of, I didn't
think about it. 

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I was like, I don't know, I'm 
good at this. 

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This is what I want to do. 
And it's interesting, you know, 

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and I, I watched all the 
President's men too many times. 

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So here we go. 
And you know, not to be super 

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mushy, but I hope and I know 
that's true. 

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They are. 
But you know, I hope that we 

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haven't all, you know, that 
we're never stifling creativity.

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And that does mean for kids that
want to go paint and do, you 

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know, literally the arts, you 
know, you can be a creative 

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engineer and, you know, 
investment banker. 

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And also, but that, that idea 
of, of, of doing that, which 

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I've kind of learned later in 
life, like, man, that's a, 

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that's a gift from God that, 
that, you know, I think 

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everybody's got a little bit of.
And how else are you, how else 

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are you going to define yourself
out in the business world? 

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And again, industry agnostic, 
where, where, where are you? 

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How are you going to 
differentiate yourself, You 

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know, unless you've got 
creativity and passion and you 

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know, all those things that we 
kind of poo poo, you know, about

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like, oh, you know, go out and 
work and, you know, put your 

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shoulders into it and work hard 
and you'll be good. 

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You're like, I'm not so sure 
that that's the recipe for 

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success. 
Not always, no. 

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And you know, in the 
cybersecurity world where I've 

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worked for 25 years, a lot of 
the most successful and most 

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interesting people I've met in 
this world did not study 

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computer science or engineering 
or anything like that. 

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Some of them were like studied 
library sciences or they were, 

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you know, communications majors 
like me or English or history 

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majors or, you know, Fine Arts 
majors who just brought some 

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sort of critical thinking and 
outside perspective to the hard 

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problems that people are trying 
to solve. 

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And, you know, there's not I, I 
do feel like we sometimes gloss 

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over that and, and don't 
encourage people to, you know, 

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maybe this lane isn't for you. 
Go try this. 

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You know, like like you did. 
Truly, I mean, you know, 

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overused fridge when we say 
100%, but it it, it is just so 

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true. 
And you know, I think that 

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mindset and again, I know this 
sounds a little Pollyanna for 

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for some people, you know, that 
are just built in right angle 

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people that are like this is the
only way. 

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This is the process. 
This whatever that is in life. 

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I get that and God love you and 
that's that's great for you, not

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for me. 
But this idea like, man, you 

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know, you, you if, if, if, if 
you, if you run into that 

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roadblock and you realize after 
some really good hard thought 

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and prayer, like I'm, I'm not 
getting it, You know, like this,

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this really is we're at that 
Rubicon point and it's like, 

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not, not where I need to go, go 
try something else. 

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You know, the worst things 
happened is you try something 

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else and that doesn't work and 
you come back to home base like 

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that. 
That is it because if not like, 

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do you want to be that guy? 
And I mean, this probably is 

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what scares me the most is being
that person that was locked into

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fill in the blank for fill in 
the blank years. 

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And and, you know, becomes that 
cautionary tale like, yeah, you 

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know, I hated every job I've 
ever had, right? 

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No, that was absolutely my worst
nightmare. 

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Yeah. 
And I, I, I don't think I could 

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have like I would, I would have 
found some way out of it there. 

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There's no way I I'm not one of 
those people that could have 

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done. 
And it doesn't sound like you 

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are either, Matt. 
Like it just wouldn't. 

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And I know those people. 
You know, I've plenty of friends

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that, you know, yes, they make 
good livings or whatever, but 

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boy, are they not happy with 
what they're doing and it's not 

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fulfilling. 
And they're, you know, they get 

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up every morning and they're 
like, oh shit, well, here we go.

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And you're just like, man, you 
can't, you got to find a way. 

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And I, I mean to kind of bring 
it back. 

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You, you mentioned, you know, 
like things didn't go the way 

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you wanted them to go when 
you're at Hamden Sydney. 

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And so you did you just kind of 
take a look around. 

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I think you had a brother that 
went to BMI my the West Point of

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the South. 
Let's go baby. 

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And then see, did you just kind 
of think, you know, the military

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could be a good option for me? 
Well. 

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If, if you don't remember that, 
that, you know, hey, you know, 

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I'll always, you know, maybe 
I'll fly jets, you know, and 

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I'll be the Marines because 
everybody wants to be the 

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Marines. 
And I'd say that action for our 

219
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:28,400
Marine Corps brethren, but yeah,
that that that timetable sort of

220
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,440
started getting closer because I
did wind up going home working 

221
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,400
for my parents. 
You know, the Hampton, Sydney 

222
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,040
folks put me on a sabbatical, 
which was really very kind to 

223
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,520
them. 
And they should have done it way

224
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,800
earlier. 
But, you know, they they did. 

225
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,320
I mean, who fails out after 
their junior year, literally the

226
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,680
summer before your senior year? 
They're like, take a break bow. 

227
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,040
And again, and rightly so, Well 
deserved. 

228
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,840
Totally my all me, but I was 
working at I love to share this 

229
00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,320
story, Dennis, not to sound so 
grand, but it just it it was 

230
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,600
such a great moment in my life. 
I was working for my parents, 

231
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,000
you know, delivering sheetrock 
and two by fours doing that 

232
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,080
stuff. 
And it was the spring. 

233
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:16,520
It was the fall of of two of 
1987 Ronald Reagan president, 

234
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,640
you know, commander in chief and
we're we're still fighting the 

235
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,080
Russians and or going to stop 
the Russians in Germany in the 

236
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,960
folder gap Cold War stuff. 
And this kid I went to high 

237
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,000
school with walked into the 
lumber yard and I get I can 

238
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,840
picture him right now. 
He you know, he's always, he was

239
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,000
a decent athlete, you know, he 
played ball together, but he 

240
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,800
walked in and he, he, you know, 
he he stood a little straighter 

241
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,680
and shoulders were a little 
back. 

242
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,240
OK. 
It was just like right out of a 

243
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,560
recruiting poster. 
I hadn't seen him. 

244
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:48,040
He went up. 
He had gone to WNL. 

245
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,720
He gone to Washington Lee and 
lost track and, and I'm like, 

246
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,000
hey, Kevin, how's, how's 
everything at W now? 

247
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,320
He's like, oh man, you know, I 
failed out like 1 semester. 

248
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,480
I'm like, we're, you know, 
kindred spirits. 

249
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,240
And I'm like, well, So what are 
you doing now? 

250
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,440
And he's like, oh, I, you know, 
I joined the join the army and 

251
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:07,680
I'm like, oh, you know, first 
it's like, that's cool. 

252
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:09,080
I'm like, where do you, what do 
you do? 

253
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:15,200
It's like, oh, I'm, I'm an MP 
and I I'm in Berlin and I'm 

254
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,160
thinking, Dan, it's like I might
as well have been the moon, you 

255
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:21,160
know? 
I mean, I've never even. 

256
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,880
Been on Oh for sure. 
You know, Berlin and he's just, 

257
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,240
I remember he stood there across
the counter and he probably 20 

258
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,160
minutes just telling me stories 
of being a soldier in Berlin 

259
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:38,400
with, you know, divided and 
literally talking about the spy 

260
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,800
transfers, you know, at the gate
and early. 

261
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,640
And it, it, it was literally 
like a magic carpet ride that 

262
00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,440
for me. 
And I, I just, I remember going 

263
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,720
home and I told my parents, you 
know, I, I, I saw Kevin Topping 

264
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,080
and, and, you know, told him the
same story. 

265
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,200
And I said, I think I'd like to 
go talk to the recruiter. 

266
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,880
And my mom and dad were like, 
you know, go, man, go, go see 

267
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,240
what's up. 
And I think it, you know, as 

268
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,440
I've looked back on it, I think 
what I realized that it wasn't 

269
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,920
necessarily the Army was my my 
calling as much as I realized, 

270
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,440
you know, I got to do something 
on my own. 

271
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,520
You know, I, I have to 
accomplish something. 

272
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,440
I got to, I got to put one in a 
win column. 

273
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,560
You know, I'm the youngest. 
I, I'm, I, my brothers and 

274
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,120
sisters are, you know, just 
brilliant and smart and great 

275
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,360
and awesome and they're awesome 
brothers and sisters. 

276
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,520
And I'm like, I, you know, I'm 
the weakest lane kind of thing. 

277
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,480
And and the Army seemed like to 
me knowing nothing, I literally 

278
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,040
knew nothing really about the 
Army other than what have 

279
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,160
learned, you know, the recruiter
like that, that this could be 

280
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,640
something that basic training is
probably harder than, you know, 

281
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,080
fraternity initiation. 
And you know, let me go see if 

282
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,840
let me kind of go see if I can 
do it. 

283
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,960
I think that was was, really, 
and not that I'm that dramatic A

284
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,680
thinker about my development as 
an 18 year old or 20 year old by

285
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,240
then, but I do remember thinking
I got to do something hard and 

286
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,200
the Army gave it to me. 
That's interesting. 

287
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,960
You know, my, my dad is a Army 
captain retired like, you know, 

288
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,760
the long before I was born or a 
few years before I was born. 

289
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,160
And you know, I, I did hear a 
lot of he was in the Vietnam 

290
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:24,560
area. 
He didn't serve in Vietnam, but 

291
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,400
he was in Huntsville, AL doing 
like missile stuff. 

292
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,240
And so he had like some 
experience and he had always 

293
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,360
sort of like I talked to him 
about the military when I was 

294
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,600
growing up because I wasn't like
the most disciplined kid on 

295
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,720
earth and didn't totally know 
what I was going to do. 

296
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,480
And he he didn't like warn me 
off. 

297
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:43,840
He was just like, I don't, I 
don't know. 

298
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,680
I don't, I don't know that 
that's for you, Like, but 

299
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,640
whatever, you know, and I had 
friends in high school who went 

300
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:49,960
that route and that kind of 
thing. 

301
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,240
And you know, some of my college
buddies after college ended up 

302
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,920
joining the military as well. 
But I completely understand that

303
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,000
mentality of like, I need to go 
do something hard and see if I 

304
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,520
can do that, like see where my 
limits are, see what I can 

305
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,800
accomplish. 
You know, especially when you're

306
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:13,400
192021 years old and you really 
want to kind of like, now's the 

307
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:14,760
time. 
Yeah. 

308
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:16,880
Let's go see what this is all 
about. 

309
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:22,200
And you know, as you said, that 
was 878080. 8 The end of it I 

310
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,960
did. 
I listed December 27th, 1987, 

311
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,960
went to basic, you know, two 
days later, I think I was down 

312
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,400
there for New Year's Eve. 
There you go. 

313
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,760
But yeah, no, I didn't mean to 
cut you off, but it is. 

314
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,640
It's like, you know, you need 
that, that need. 

315
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,840
And listen, I, I, I, I know this
about myself. 

316
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,560
Back then, it wasn't 
particularly adventurous, not 

317
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:53,560
that I necessarily AM, but I do 
think I, I, I did have a, a, a 

318
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,440
pretty solid work ethic. 
And, and again, my academic 

319
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,320
prowess wasn't what it was, but 
it wasn't a lack of effort. 

320
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,640
And that I can say, and I think 
that's kind of important to the 

321
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,599
story. 
Wasn't like, hey, I was just, 

322
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,119
you know, boozing it. 
I mean, I drank a lot clearly, 

323
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,280
like most kids did. 
But you know, I, I lived in that

324
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,000
library and people look at me 
like, yeah, you know what? 

325
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,599
I'm sure you did. 
I'm like, no, I, I, I, I lived 

326
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,640
in, in that library. 
And it, so it wasn't that, that 

327
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,599
the lack of effort, it was, you 
know, it just didn't have the 

328
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:28,800
skills. 
And I think that that was the 

329
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,160
thing about the Army that that 
again, looking back on my entire

330
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,800
career that I love was that, you
know, if you put in the effort, 

331
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:39,480
you know, literally, if you, if 
you, if you follow the rules, 

332
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,840
keep your nose above water, you 
know, do do the right things and

333
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,200
do it absolutely with everything
you got, you can be successful. 

334
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,600
And like, that's just, it 
doesn't mean you're going to be 

335
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,560
in every single task, but it 
does generally speaking in that 

336
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,080
institution. 
You will, you will do, you will 

337
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,440
do well. 
And that was a great, I think 

338
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,560
reinforcement for me that now 
I'm out on my own, this new 

339
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,600
world. 
And, you know, the hard work, 

340
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,880
the meritocracy pieces really do
really do work. 

341
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,160
And just as a quick footnote, I 
appreciate that, you know, there

342
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,400
are people out there listening 
like Matt, you know, the army 

343
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,440
socks and blah, blah, blah. 
And it's, you know, crazy. 

344
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,680
And I'm like, of course it is. 
It's a 500,000 person strong 

345
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,720
bureaucracy that is goofy in so 
many ways. 

346
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,480
And there's the toilet, $500 
toilet, all that stuff. 

347
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,440
But that's bell curve. 
You know that that is usually, 

348
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,120
in my opinion, that's on the 
bell curve. 

349
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,280
And if you get to the to the 
centre mass of it, you know, 

350
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,680
that organization, it's only as 
good as people, but it lets it 

351
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,720
it, it rewards, generally 
speaking, good effort, hard 

352
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,760
work, and just, you know, great 
initiative. 

353
00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,680
Did it, did it kind of click for
you right away after you, you 

354
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,440
know, say you got through basic 
or whatever and did you think, 

355
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,480
OK, I this is something that I 
think I can do. 

356
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,800
Yeah, no, it did. 
And, and it's so funny and, and 

357
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,400
this is a goofy story, but you 
know, the, you go to basic 

358
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,000
training. 
We've all seen movies and TV 

359
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,800
shows and you know, you're 
sleeping in this big open Bay in

360
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,200
your bunks and they, they show 
you how to, they show you how to

361
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,600
do everything, which is really 
quite brilliant when you think 

362
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,200
about it, because a lot of 
people don't know how to make a 

363
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,000
bed. 
Literally, that's the whole 

364
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:29,360
story. 
Like they're like, this is 

365
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,800
hospital corners on your bed. 
Well, you know, not to be like, 

366
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,760
I'm so great because my mom 
showed me, but like I knew how 

367
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,600
to do it. 
And it was like Pythagorean 

368
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,400
Theorean, you know, standards 
of, of, of getting those, those 

369
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,440
folds right. 
But like that all made sense. 

370
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,040
All, you know, everything was 
written, all the rules, total 

371
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,320
right angle stuff. 
And I'm like, now we're cooking.

372
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,480
I, I got it. 
I, I can, I can follow this 

373
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,240
formula. 
The funny thing though, and I 

374
00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,800
thought about this so often, is 
that, and maybe that's true for 

375
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,480
everybody, but I think, you 
know, once you learn the system,

376
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,000
once you learn, you know how to 
keep doing this like a right 

377
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,800
angle, like AT square. 
You like, then you learn, OK, 

378
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,800
you can, you can, you can widen 
the aperture a little more for 

379
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,480
me and everything doesn't have 
to be, you know, absolutely 100%

380
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:24,440
by the rules in the sense of now
we can we can we can open up 

381
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,520
that range fan for you so that 
you can you, you individual 

382
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,320
soldier can start making some 
decisions and you can take a 

383
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,480
little bit of liberties of you 
know, how you're going to 

384
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,040
accomplish a task. 
And it doesn't have to be 

385
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:44,320
necessarily, you know, A-Z. 
You might only have to do, you 

386
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,760
know, A to T and there might be 
some steps in in certain 

387
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,720
circumstances. 
And again, keyword that you can,

388
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,800
you can hedge on, you can skip 
and you know, you found then now

389
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,720
the commanders that are giving 
you a lot of latitude and less 

390
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,640
guidance and expecting you to, 
to move. 

391
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,800
I guess that's the thing, you 
know, that, that allowing you to

392
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,640
move within wide, wide 
parameters. 

393
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,760
I found myself really enjoying 
that part. 

394
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,800
You know, you learn the basics 
really, really strictly, you 

395
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,280
know, and the expectations also.
But then you can, you can let 

396
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,600
off those, you know, you can, 
you can open up the goal post or

397
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,560
whatever analogies were used and
let that let, let people run. 

398
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,320
And, and that I found really a 
cool, really exciting. 

399
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,160
Of course, that's what the 
special operations community 

400
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,520
really is about. 
It's, you know, balance between 

401
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,200
both the, the really strict 
process and protocols to, you 

402
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,920
know, incredible problem solving
and individual thinking. 

403
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,480
Anyway, I covered a lot of bases
in there, sorry. 

404
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,440
No, that's a, that's a perfect 
segue to where I wanted to go 

405
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,560
next. 
Because I think a lot of folks 

406
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,480
from the outside who, you know, 
watch movies and read books 

407
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,280
about the military, you think 
about it as that rigid 

408
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,560
institution that you describe, 
Matt, where you're like, here 

409
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,360
are rules. 
You follow those rules. 

410
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:05,760
And that's what you do every 
single day for X amount of 

411
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,320
years. 
But in a situation like you were

412
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:14,000
in, you know, in in Somalia, in 
the battle of Mogadishu, that is

413
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,400
not a situation that followed 
any rules. 

414
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,400
Like everything that could have 
gone wrong went wrong over and 

415
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,920
over and over again. 
And you have to have some 

416
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,960
critical thinking and problem 
solving skills to be able to 

417
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,600
react. 
And, you know, anybody who's 

418
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,160
Googled your name will, will 
know what your role was there. 

419
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,720
But you were that was like your 
first leadership position, 

420
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,680
right? 
Like you were a brand new leader

421
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,280
before you deployed to Somalia 
for that mission. 

422
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,720
Yeah, no, it, it, it was. 
And and you know, the, the 

423
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,880
interesting thing Dennis is, and
again, there's plenty of holes 

424
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,120
to shoot, you know, in the 
military in general, whatever 

425
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,720
branch and and I got it and 
they're probably all correct. 

426
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,120
Whatever anyone's experienced 
with a bureaucracy and you know,

427
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:05,880
and people, you know, sometimes 
it's the good old boy club, good

428
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,360
old girl club gone bad. 
Sometimes you bad people in 

429
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,640
command and that sucks. 
But in general, again, going 

430
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,840
back, you know, the thing that I
found wonderful and I think was 

431
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,960
so helpful was sort of build on 
what I just said a minute ago. 

432
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,760
You've got this, this self 
licking ice cream cone of, of 

433
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,560
accountability and 
responsibility, particularly in 

434
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,080
the special operations world, 
but in the Army in general, that

435
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,960
that's constantly developing the
young men and women to do. 

436
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,080
You're being groomed to be the 
next level. 

437
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,560
And the next day, like, you 
know, you're actually kind of 

438
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,200
shunned and looked at with 
disfavor. 

439
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,800
If you just want to be, you 
know, the professional private, 

440
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,440
so to speak, you know, and 
again, it's, it's, it's the 

441
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,720
triangle and all that 
meritocracy, blah, blah, blah. 

442
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,920
But you know, if you're not 
trying to improve, you find that

443
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,360
you're, you're really not, 
you're not, you're really not 

444
00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:03,760
going to be in the club that 
long. 

445
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,400
And so to just to bring that in,
yeah, you know, you're, you're 

446
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,040
learning as you go. 
And, and for me in, in 

447
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:15,080
Mogadishu, you know, we, we've 
been in, in country for, you 

448
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,280
know, a month and a half and, 
and done some missions. 

449
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,480
And, you know, a couple of days 
before the end of September, my,

450
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,680
my chalk leader, the guy in 
charge of our helicopter got 

451
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,120
called home on a on a Red Cross 
message. 

452
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,840
You know, a Red Cross alert mom 
had been diagnosed with terminal

453
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,560
illness. 
And you know, it's the protocol,

454
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,120
like, you know, soldier goes and
you go home, the next in the 

455
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:42,400
chain of command, the next in 
the succession plan, you know, 

456
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,400
steps up to be in charge. 
And that happened to be to be 

457
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,400
me. 
And, and I, I think to the to 

458
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,400
that point, it's funny, you 
know, out here, the difference 

459
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,720
between that scenario I just 
described Dennis and, and you 

460
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,200
know, real life out here where I
remember we were at the beach. 

461
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,080
I promise I'll come back to the 
Mogadishu store, but we're at 

462
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,560
the beach right, Right after I 
retired. 

463
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,400
I think. 
No, I guess it was right before 

464
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,560
I, before I went to Iraq. 
It must have been because I had 

465
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,520
two weeks leave. 
We were at the beach with 

466
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,920
another two families and the, 
the two husbands were, were 

467
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,200
finance guy. 
They were Wall Streeters in, in 

468
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,760
New York and wives had all gone 
to school together. 

469
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,440
That's how I got in that, that 
little club. 

470
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,920
And it was fascinating talking 
about, you know, I'm on, you 

471
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,800
know, my two weeks leave. 
So I'm, I'm enjoying every 

472
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,480
second of every checked out. 
Like there's no, you know, 

473
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,080
there's no army in me. 
And these two guys, you know, 

474
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,840
are, are, are constantly there 
at the beach on the phone just 

475
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,280
before we're all so nutty about 
cell phones, but they're on the 

476
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,640
phone all the time. 
Got to leave the beach, leave 

477
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,240
the kids got to go back to the 
house and and do something for 

478
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,040
work. 
And I remember saying, like, you

479
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,280
know, dude, what's what's going 
on? 

480
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,600
I can't somebody else do that. 
And he's like, no, you know, I 

481
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,520
can't let anybody else do that. 
Then then then you know I'm out 

482
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:08,960
of a job. 
Right. 

483
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,800
Then my worth is diminished. 
Yeah, and. 

484
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,640
And anyway, that whole thing, I 
was just like, that wasn't what 

485
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,160
we were thinking, you know, in 
the military. 

486
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,000
And for good reason, you know? 
So, yeah, you, you, you get 

487
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,400
thrust into this role of, of, 
hey, man, it's time to go. 

488
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,360
And I think falling back, if you
dissect it, the training, you 

489
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:31,720
know, the regiment of the 
training and the reason we do 

490
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,440
the training to great standards,
the right angle side of it, you 

491
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,720
know, is what's going to pay off
in a in a crisis. 

492
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,640
You know, and I've learned this 
lesson, you know, that 

493
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,440
standards, you know, high 
standards determine outcomes 

494
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,680
before chaos like that. 
That's my pithy little quote of 

495
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,040
the day. 
And I did, I realized like that 

496
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,760
that's it because you're going 
to get in this position in a 

497
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,480
Crucible experience, whether 
it's on a battlefield, on hawala

498
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:03,080
dig road or fill in the blank in
whatever industry where there's 

499
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,000
nobody to come save you 
literally and figuratively. 

500
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,160
You know, if I can just paint 
this picture, Dennis for a 

501
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,320
second, you know, I mean this 
October 3rd where we're going in

502
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:19,880
on this mission and I'm in 
charge and literally daylight 

503
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,320
raid and, and on the, the 
insertion, we got put in the 

504
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,920
wrong spot. 
One of my soldiers falls off the

505
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,840
fast rope, you know, falls down.
I got immediate casualty. 

506
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,600
My, my radios don't work. 
I can't communicate with the, 

507
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,600
the commander. 
And in like 20 seconds, we're 

508
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,920
automatically all of a sudden 
we're in a firefight. 

509
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,880
You know, we're, we're taking 
fire, you know, literally from 

510
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,000
three directions. 
And this all happens like again,

511
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,000
2030 seconds, you know, like you
can't even, I remember thinking,

512
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,920
I can't even contemplate how all
this stuff go wrong so quickly. 

513
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,880
You know, there's not a training
scenario like, hey, let's bury 

514
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,880
this young soldier, you know, 
with so many mind boggling 

515
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,480
challenges and let's just, you 
know, ha, ha, ha, watch him 

516
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,280
struggle. 
Like, you know, maybe you do one

517
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,600
or two, but. 
Right, right. 

518
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:24,920
You know, and, and this all 
leads back to this point that if

519
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,800
you're groomed, that it's all 
you and only you, if that's what

520
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,360
you really believe, one that's 
incredibly arrogant and you 

521
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,800
know, so self-righteous and 
self-centered. 

522
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,000
But on the other hand, that's 
the surefire recipe for disaster

523
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,160
because, you know, either, you 
know, you take one in the Peach 

524
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,360
or you just have no control over
the situation. 

525
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,000
So you've got to figure it out. 
It's the whole the whole point 

526
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,160
that's going to happen. 
It's going to happen in in 

527
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,240
battle and it's going to happen 
in life and it's going to happen

528
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,040
in business. 
I think you only get out of it 

529
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,600
by by by preparing, you know, by
training and, and that that high

530
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,680
standard kind of stuff. 
Anyway, sorry to suck all the 

531
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,080
oxygen out of the room. 
No, that's, I mean, that's 

532
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,400
exactly what I was getting at. 
I think, you know, you mentioned

533
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,800
your, that your commander, your,
your superior officer had been 

534
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,520
called home for a medical 
emergency. 

535
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,480
And so you were sort of thrust 
into this, you know, maybe it 

536
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,560
would have happened six months 
later for, for you or something 

537
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,360
like that, but you were kind of 
thrust into it. 

538
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,800
And then a few days or weeks 
later you, you know, you fast 

539
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,400
rope down a helicopter and 
everything goes to shit in 45 

540
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,040
seconds. 
And you don't have that 

541
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,640
commander to fall back on. 
You can't look around and be 

542
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,280
like, wait, where's the adult? 
Oh, I'm the adult. 

543
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,760
Uh oh. 
Like you have to be able to 

544
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,680
react, right? 
Like you have to be able to your

545
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,200
men are looking at you, you have
to have some answers for them. 

546
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,560
A. 100% and, and I think that 
again, you know, so many lessons

547
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,440
I learned from that everybody 
does from at least you, you talk

548
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,560
to anybody else on that 
battlefield anywhere and 

549
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,240
they've, they've got some very 
similar and some very different,

550
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,520
you know, experiences and 
lessons learned. 

551
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,480
So again, I, I, I said earlier, 
I can only tell you what I, what

552
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,040
I learned, but what I learned 
there, and I think truly right 

553
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,280
off the bat, what got me through
was being in that, that moment 

554
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400
where I'm like, holy shit, I 
really don't know. 

555
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,240
I don't have an answer. 
Like I, I, I am that adult, I'm 

556
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,000
the grown up in the room. 
I don't have an answer and the 

557
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,520
clock's ticking And oh, by the 
way, you know, when you start 

558
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,720
thinking about it and it just 
starts to, to manifest itself. 

559
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,200
And this idea like, man, the 
more I'm trying to to remain 

560
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,280
calm and think that I got to do 
something, I don't have an 

561
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,360
answer, the more, you know, 
excited I'm getting. 

562
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,040
And you get to that point, at 
least again, me, pardon me, you 

563
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,160
get to that point where you're 
like, holy shit. 

564
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,640
If I don't, if I don't say 
something, you know, we're, 

565
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,000
we're going to, we're going to 
fail, we're going to implode. 

566
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,520
And that I can vividly picture 
it. 

567
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,880
I was kind of standing in the 
middle of the street and it was 

568
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,240
probably only for a few seconds,
but it felt like, you know, time

569
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,440
just stops. 
And I was watching the guys, my 

570
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Rangers, you know, in the fight 
and Dennis, I swear it was just 

571
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,720
like immediately I remember 
thinking like, man, we're going 

572
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,960
to be all right. 
These guys, they're doing 

573
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,640
exactly, exactly what they're 
supposed to do. 

574
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,360
I mean, it might not be the 
perfect, you know, training 

575
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,000
standards, but they're getting 
after it. 

576
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,480
And these two, you know, 20 year
olds and 21 year olds are, are, 

577
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,360
are, are just duking it out with
the enemy. 

578
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,200
And I haven't said one thing to 
him. 

579
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,640
I haven't given one command. 
No, nothing like they're on 

580
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,600
autopilot. 
They're doing their jobs just as

581
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,520
they, just as they train, just 
as we rehearse, just as we 

582
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,120
planned in the most challenging 
environment. 

583
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,920
And I realized like, man, 
they're the, they're, I got the 

584
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,840
easy part. 
They're they're the guys that 

585
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,360
are that are fighting. 
All I got to do is just be a 

586
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,480
problem solver. 
And this is an easy problem to 

587
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:02,560
solve. 
I don't got to solve all of 

588
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,920
them. 
I just got to solve the, the, 

589
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,400
the, the, the, the, the most 
important, which is the loss of 

590
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,200
life. 
And that like that changed the 

591
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,080
whole, they, they changed the 
whole day for me. 

592
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,280
And then again, certainly scary.
Don't get me wrong. 

593
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,200
My it's easy to be sound really 
brave, you know, in West Palm 

594
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,720
Beach, FL. 
But you know that, that moment, 

595
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,280
though, it wasn't me the, the, 
the, the leader in the org 

596
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,680
chart, you know, it was a young 
Sergeant. 

597
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,840
You know, it was the young 
special, like, you know, the 

598
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,680
privates, the, the, the kids on 
the front line. 

599
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,840
They, they were the centre of 
gravity and they, they did their

600
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,520
job. 
And like, you know, kind of 

601
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:38,960
important lesson back to the 
beach. 

602
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,960
And you know, the beach story. 
It's like, if you're in a 

603
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:48,120
culture where it all depends on 
you, I'm like, who do you? 

604
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,280
I don't want to be you and I 
certainly don't want to work for

605
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,000
you, because this is just 
bullshit. 

606
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,840
That's exactly right. 
Yeah. 

607
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,960
That whole idea of like one 
person being a single point of 

608
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,960
failure in an organization, 
that's like, that's bad 

609
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,440
organization, it's bad 
management. 

610
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,360
It's arrogant thinking the way 
that you put it earlier, Matt, 

611
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,160
like nobody else can do what I 
do. 

612
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,960
Like I'm the guy, Like I'm the 
only one who can push this 

613
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,440
button on the computer. 
Get out of here. 

614
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,440
A million other people can do 
what you're doing. 

615
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,920
You just happen to be in that 
job right now. 

616
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,880
And you know, it's a completely 
different, you know, mindset 

617
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,880
into what you're talking about 
on an actual battlefield. 

618
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:39,840
But you know, if you're in that,
that sort of self-centered, 

619
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,720
arrogant mindset of like, I'm 
the most important part of this 

620
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,640
whole equation, you're not going
to be able to solve a lot of 

621
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,360
problems because you're going to
see everybody else is the 

622
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,240
problem, you know, and you're 
not going to be able to look, 

623
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,080
look outward and say like, oh, 
no, there's OK, I can actually 

624
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,760
go help with that. 
And you're not just, you know, 

625
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,280
yelling orders at everybody like
you could have been, I'm sure. 

626
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,040
Yeah, no, 100% and, and I will 
say just as the comma, but 

627
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,199
because that exposes the other 
side, the bad side of of 

628
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,719
military leadership in the 
hierarchy and the strict 

629
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,400
protocols and the regimen and 
all that stuff is that you can, 

630
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:25,199
I think inadvertently get to 
what you just described, Dennis,

631
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:30,120
because everybody, you know, the
tyrant, you know, always, always

632
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,480
wins because the law, you know, 
is behind them. 

633
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,679
And you know, you, you, you. 
And I'm sure we've seen it out 

634
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,520
here in the civilian world, but 
certainly in the military, you 

635
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,920
know, the the the reinforced 
negative, you know, nothing bad 

636
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,560
happened under his or her watch.
And they were in favor of 

637
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,320
somebody because they're, you 
know, somewhat of a sycophant or

638
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,880
a lap dog or whatever. 
And, and the system works that, 

639
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,400
that bad people do get promoted 
and you know, that, that 100% 

640
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,800
does does happen. 
And, you know, it's unfortunate 

641
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,240
and it sucks when it does 
because it kind of, you know, 

642
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:07,880
ruins it for, for the rest of 
us. 

643
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,560
But they start believing that, 
you know, I, I, you know, I am, 

644
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,200
I am, I am the gift. 
In fact, I remember talking to 

645
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:21,320
this, to this one retired 
Colonel and we're having a 

646
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,960
leadership discussion and, and 
by no means folks, am I the, the

647
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:31,160
expert on, on any of this? 
Like not, but he was talking to 

648
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,480
this group about, you know, kind
of command philosophy or some 

649
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,240
army, you know, way up here kind
of stuff. 

650
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:40,920
And they're like all doctrinally
correct. 

651
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,160
You know, I, I give them my 
blah, blah, blah. 

652
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,920
And this is how we do mission 
planning and all that kind of 

653
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,760
shit. 
And, you know, we're talking to 

654
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,040
this group of civilians and the 
civilian asked a question, a 

655
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,760
leadership question. 
Now he's talking up at a more 

656
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,720
senior military level and I'm, 
you know, my level is down here 

657
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,160
at the the ground at the 
tactical level where I'm 

658
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,840
assuming this person asking the 
question is coming from. 

659
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,280
And so the answer, as you might 
imagine, comes from, you know, 

660
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,920
the senior command level, like 
kind of everybody does what I 

661
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,000
say. 
And you know, you just call 

662
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,960
them, you know, you, you just 
tell them, you know that they. 

663
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,560
Need 'cause I said so. 
And Z and I'm like, hey, that 

664
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,800
ain't going to work at, you 
know, Price Waterhouse Cooper 

665
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,080
like that. 
They're going to, you know, say 

666
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,520
no and and off you go. 
And I remember afterwards just 

667
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,480
sort of floating it by like, 
hey, well, well, what happens if

668
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,720
you know, you know, Joe 6 pack 
says, yeah, I'm not, I'm not I'm

669
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:44,040
not buying that. 
And you know, looked at me like,

670
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,920
you know, how dare he? 
And I'm like, dude, you're 

671
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,440
missing that what you're talking
is not reality. 

672
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,800
Like that's not how it works. 
You know, you're talking 

673
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,440
comedian structure. 
And, you know, if you're asking 

674
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,600
me about leadership at my level,
I'm like, how do I get, how do I

675
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,680
get that, You know, that that 
whomever just asked that 

676
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,360
question to follow me down the 
dark alley just so to speak, 

677
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,080
Like that's the base. 
How do I get her to do that? 

678
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,920
Because she doesn't want to. 
And if I hadn't had the 

679
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,560
opportunity to train her and do 
all this kind of stuff 

680
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,720
systematically, like in the 
military, how do I connect with 

681
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:25,920
her and, and, and just get her 
to do her shit really well? 

682
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,200
And you're in life. 
Two different theories. 

683
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,720
And I think sometimes the Army 
promotes that when it's not 

684
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:38,040
always that realistic. 
Anyway, just my, you know, my 

685
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,240
$0.02. 
No, but I mean, I feel like the 

686
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,120
the training side of that is 
what's important because like in

687
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:47,040
the situation that you were in 
in Mogadishu, like that's what 

688
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,960
the training is for, right? 
Like you mentioned, your guys 

689
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,480
just on their own knew what to 
do. 

690
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,000
You know, these are 2021 year 
old guys in the worst situation 

691
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,960
of their lives and probably 
hadn't been in that before. 

692
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:02,240
They didn't totally know what to
do, but they were like, OK, 

693
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,120
instinct training this. 
I'm going to go here, he's going

694
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,920
to go there. 
We're going to figure this out 

695
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,960
and, you know, that's what the 
training is for. 

696
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,480
You fall back on that until, you
know, then you can start solving

697
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,200
problems in some kind of 
sequence. 

698
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,560
But yeah, in the civilian world,
where did the leadership style 

699
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,320
is? 
You know, because I said so 

700
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,960
like, or because I'm 4 levels 
above you and I went to, you 

701
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,080
know, Harvard ambient that, like
you said, get out of here with 

702
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,800
that. 
Like, tell me why. 

703
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,040
Like give me, give me a reason 
why I'm supposed to, you know, 

704
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,400
think that you're a leader or 
show me, you know, more 

705
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,160
importantly, give me some 
evidence that you've actually 

706
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,040
done something worthy of 
following. 

707
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,760
And a lot of people just don't, 
you know, they kind of assume 

708
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,720
that once they get into a 
management or leadership 

709
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:57,280
position, the title confers all 
of the authority and and 

710
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,360
responsibility that it that is 
necessary. 

711
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,040
Yeah, no, absolutely. 
And and, and you know, and I 

712
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,360
think it's at least again my, my
experience coming out in my 40s 

713
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:14,160
to the new world and, and again 
with my ideas of again, kind of 

714
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,240
and, and not all 100% correct, 
but it's my only database which 

715
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:21,920
to correct, you know, compare 
leadership to leadership, new 

716
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,840
civilian, you know, leadership 
to that. 

717
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,280
And not again, always fair, but 
in one sense it it should be. 

718
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,600
And what you find out here is it
took me a while to to figure it 

719
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,800
out too. 
And again, this is a little 

720
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,120
broad. 
So this is not like everybody 

721
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,560
out here is bad. 
It's certainly not a work for 

722
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,520
some amazing leaders out here. 
Just to, you know, cut to the 

723
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,640
chase that I always say they're 
the ones that missed their 

724
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,720
calling. 
Like would have been great to be

725
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:53,840
in the Rangers or the but you 
know what you find like a lot of

726
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,800
a lot of small companies, my 
experience has been, man, 

727
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,720
somebody had a really great 
idea, like a really, really 

728
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:03,280
brilliant, I'm talking to 
clearly entrepreneurial stuff 

729
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,280
and which I love, you know, 
really great idea. 

730
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,160
Absolutely just brick and hit it
right over the green monster 

731
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,760
just crushed it. 
Had the wherewithal to get some 

732
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,480
smart people to help and off 
they go to the races. 

733
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,880
They build this company and 
everybody wants to go and jump 

734
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,680
in and whatever it is and they 
can't lead for shit. 

735
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,600
You know, really good at 
whatever it is and you know, 

736
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,800
really made a lot of dough and 
really always. 

737
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,440
But as far as solving problems 
for their people and getting the

738
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,160
best out of their people, it's 
just like, hey, where you, you, 

739
00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,200
you, you either, you know, 
respect the salary or, or, or 

740
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,320
beat it. 
You know, we, we have no 

741
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:45,880
interest at all in helping you 
outside of these four walls as I

742
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,440
don't give one shit and just 
suck it up. 

743
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:52,960
Whereas you've got 22 year olds,
you know, that are, are 

744
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,880
responsible for making sure that
a 19 year old's paying his 

745
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,200
bills, you know, and, and 
treating his. 

746
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:03,480
And, and I'm not suggesting we 
got to go that far, but you can 

747
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,080
see where I've got I, I, I care 
about you far more than just 

748
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:08,200
being able to squeeze the 
trigger. 

749
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:12,720
So in there I'm like, we have 
lost that out here, at least it 

750
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:15,280
seems to me. 
No, I think you're right. 

751
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,120
I've seen that 1000 times in the
tech world where you have a 

752
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:24,360
founder or a founding team that 
has this great idea and they get

753
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,640
it to a certain level. 
And then they need adult 

754
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,960
leadership to come in and say, 
OK, we got it from here. 

755
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,640
You know, you guys can, you can 
be the chief engineer or 

756
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,080
whatever, but you're not ACEO 
anymore. 

757
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:43,040
Like you, you got us from one 
employee to 40 or whatever. 

758
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,520
Here come the adults and some 
founders are like, oh, thank 

759
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,080
God, good. 
I want to just go build this 

760
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,960
thing again. 
Some lose their minds and fight 

761
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,080
and those companies typically 
don't make it. 

762
00:41:55,040 --> 00:42:00,080
But you know, it's it's a tough,
you know, come to Jesus type 

763
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,240
thing for everybody. 
Some people are relieved and 

764
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,200
some people are like, no way, 
this is my company. 

765
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,840
Like you see, that's it's me, 
like I am the company. 

766
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,840
But if you're, you know, if you 
want the organization as a whole

767
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,640
to succeed, you can't, you can't
really hold on to that that 

768
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,200
tightly. 
No, no, and, and, and again, I, 

769
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,840
you know, far be it for me to 
can't see anybody's soul, but I,

770
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:29,520
I just, my experience has been 
then on that other lens, Dennis,

771
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,680
where somebody, oh, you know, 
Matt's the leader of that 

772
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,320
company. 
It's like, oh, Matt's an idiot. 

773
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,000
You know, again, Matt's got a 
lot of dough. 

774
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,600
Matt, you know, he's the guy you
just talked about. 

775
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,400
So we're like, man, that guy's 
leadership. 

776
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,400
He, he, he's hit. 
I'm like, no, he's not. 

777
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,680
He's he's horrible. 
Like would you want to follow 

778
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,800
him down the alley? 
Which again, quite unfair, A 

779
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,720
litmus, but enamour like wow, 
but he made a shit ton of dough 

780
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:54,680
and and that's that's the name 
of this. 

781
00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:00,040
Again, you all want to, but 
you're going to work for this 

782
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,240
clown. 
Like literally, you know, on the

783
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:05,160
promise that maybe you're you're
really going to hit a pig with 

784
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,040
Joe. 
By the way, you're not because 

785
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,000
he's never going to let you. 
You know he no. 

786
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,320
Absolutely. 
Going to let you though, he's 

787
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,680
just going to squeeze you until 
you're, you're just dry and Gee,

788
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:20,760
anyway, I, I, I, you know, it's 
just an interesting thing, 

789
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:25,040
Dennis, this whole idea, which I
think if I take a really big 

790
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:30,320
leap, you know, so many times I,
I, I just keep thinking it's 

791
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,120
like my wife says to this when, 
when, when something, you know, 

792
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,520
unpleasant happens. 
So you have some unpleasant 

793
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,600
experience with another human, 
you know, in this case, we'll 

794
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,080
talk about it Work. 
You're like, you know, just 

795
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,520
people being people, You know, 
they're just people being 

796
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,880
people. 
The arrogance, the rudeness, 

797
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,440
the, you know, suddenly, you 
know, it seems more often the 

798
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,480
bad behaviour, but it really is 
the bad behaviour. 

799
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:01,200
And, and, and I think so often 
it's like, man, just, you know, 

800
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,160
follow the golden rule folks. 
I mean, if you've got to an 

801
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,000
organization and you understand 
the mission, regardless of any 

802
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,120
kind of org chart, you know, if 
you just understand the mission 

803
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,000
and you're like, I, I, I give a 
shit about the I'm sorry, my 

804
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:18,920
mouth should be washed. 
Please. 

805
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:24,040
You know, we just, I really 
actually do care about the 

806
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,560
people on my left and right. 
Theoretically, the thing should 

807
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:34,080
run and and I don't understand 
how now in the military again, 

808
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:42,040
I'd love it, but has has has 
weaponized this idea that you 

809
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,080
can be a friendly leader like 
truly. 

810
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,320
And I got to tell a quick story 
this. 

811
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,840
Please. 
Because, you know, I got to, 

812
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,960
when I got to Iraq in, in 2006, 
you fly into everybody, you fly 

813
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,600
into Kuwait playing in the 
middle of the night. 

814
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,600
And, you know, so the bad guys 
can't see it. 

815
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:06,120
And you get off the plane and 
it's about a 5,000,000° and you 

816
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,320
get in these buses, these school
buses and all the school bus, 

817
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,240
you know, like old, you know, 
school bus, they have all 

818
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,040
curtains on the inside. 
So again, apparently the bad 

819
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,920
guys at midnight can't, you 
know, see the gringo sitting in 

820
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:25,840
his seat and you leave the, the,
the airfield to go to, you know,

821
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,000
the cantonment area, wherever 
they've got the, the barracks. 

822
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,720
You're going to stay in Kuwait 
for a couple of days. 

823
00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:33,440
And anyway, as you're leaving 
the airfield in this bus, 

824
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,760
they've got Serpentine barriers,
you know, these big Jersey 

825
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,560
cement. 
You see them on the side of the 

826
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,120
highway and they're staggered. 
So, you know, the suicide bomber

827
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,680
can't just drive in. 
You got to you got to do really 

828
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,080
broad, you know, S turns to go 
out about, you know, a mile an 

829
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,680
hour. 
It's just brutal. 

830
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,040
And I'm sitting here by the 
window and I'm, I'm peeking out,

831
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:01,120
you know, through the curtains 
and I'm noticing that on each of

832
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,760
these Jersey barriers, someone 
had a good idea that we're going

833
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,440
to stint. 
Someone in the military said 

834
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,160
we're going to stencil, you 
know, some pep talk, you know, 

835
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:18,840
catch phrase or something. 
And you know, it's like, you 

836
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,600
know, check your magazines and 
drink water and all, you know, 

837
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,840
you're like, OK, you know, 
reminder that we send a message 

838
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,520
and all that kind of shit. 
And then there's this one, I'll 

839
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:34,840
never forget it said we need 
leadership, not likership. 

840
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,760
And I'm like, you know, I just 
want to stick a knife in my 

841
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,520
temple because it's like 
somebody and then somebody at a 

842
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,960
senior level said this is a good
idea. 

843
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,560
And, and it was, you know, we, 
we, you got to be strong, man. 

844
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,840
It's going to be hard. 
And you know, you can't just 

845
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,360
sweet talk your way. 
I mean, I, I get that on one 

846
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,560
sense, but on the other, it's 
the license to give people to be

847
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,480
assholes. 
And it's like, you know, you 

848
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,600
have to do what you say by law, 
as long as it's not illegal, 

849
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,360
unethical or immoral. 
And if you don't, I'm just going

850
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,480
to yell at you even louder, you 
know, and and that's the 

851
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,920
solution. 
I've watched it a million times 

852
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,040
and you're like, you know, this 
guy is really going to want to 

853
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:21,160
follow you down the dark alley. 
To which I'd also say to people,

854
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,360
Dennis, I'm like, hell yeah. 
I'd like them to like me. 

855
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,200
I'm going to enforce the rules, 
of course, but I'm not going to 

856
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,240
let anybody slide. 
But I'd really like them to like

857
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:31,840
me because when I do run down 
there, you know, in the middle 

858
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,560
of the night with my gun and my 
flip flops because we got to go,

859
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,320
I hope that they're trying to 
beat me. 

860
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,680
Like, I hope that they're like, 
I, I, I want to follow that 

861
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,560
Eversman guy because he, he's a 
good dude and he treated me 

862
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,720
well. 
You know, that's just, I don't 

863
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:46,960
understand that. 
I don't either. 

864
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,520
Yeah. 
Like, this is the thing that 

865
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,160
I've, like tried to instill in 
my kids from the time they were 

866
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,280
little. 
Life is so much easier if you're

867
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,040
not an asshole. 
Just like be nice, do what 

868
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,960
you're supposed to do. 
Life will be so much simpler. 

869
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,000
Like, it just it it sounds so 
simplistic. 

870
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,040
And you know, Polly and 
whatever, it's just true. 

871
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,680
Like whatever organization 
you're in or whatever team 

872
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,400
you're on or situation you're 
in. 

873
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:15,680
Don't. 
Be a jerk. 

874
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,080
Dennis, I, I, I hate to do this,
but I got to throw a question to

875
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,600
you and because, because it's on
the tip of my tongue, like, why 

876
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,800
do you think people do that? 
Like why do you, you know, 

877
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,240
you're in a, you've been, you're
in, you got a, you got 25 LB 

878
00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:34,760
brain folks around you all the 
time, really smart, really 

879
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,360
talented, really. 
I mean, I, I, I know that group 

880
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,240
in a sense, I don't understand 
it, but I do know that group. 

881
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,840
You know, you must see it. 
You know, the arrogance, the 

882
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,200
assholes, and of course there's 
great people, but why do you 

883
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:47,080
think you'll like that? 
Is there? 

884
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,160
Should their parents be beaten 
or what is it? 

885
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,560
Some of it I do think is like 
insufficient parenting on some 

886
00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:00,840
level, but also I think once 
some of these folks in it, this 

887
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,200
is not a blanket statement or by
any means, But for some people, 

888
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,920
once they have that first kind 
of real taste of success and 

889
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,640
it's something that they created
or did, or, you know, they're, 

890
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,240
they're primarily responsible 
for that success. 

891
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,880
They get it in their heads that 
they, you know, they just can't 

892
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,480
fail or, you know, they are the,
the big Wiz. 

893
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,200
They're they're it and they 
can't be disabused of that 

894
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,320
notion. 
No matter, no matter how many 

895
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,200
failures they might stack up 
later. 

896
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,640
They're they just have that 
mentality of like, it's me, man.

897
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,480
I'm the one, you know, it's, 
it's something you see in 

898
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,280
professional athletes. 
I think by, by they have to have

899
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,040
it because otherwise they 
wouldn't keep going back out 

900
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,320
there. 
You know, it wouldn't make any 

901
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,400
sense if they didn't think they 
were going to succeed again. 

902
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:54,480
But yeah, it's a weird thing. 
And it's, you see it in all 

903
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,200
walks of life too. 
I'm positive you saw it plenty 

904
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,000
of times. 
But yeah. 

905
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,440
And again, it's not trying to 
be, you know, like we're all 

906
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,400
unicorns and, you know, fairy 
dust kind of stuff. 

907
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,440
But I think your your comment 
about, you know, what you tell 

908
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,920
your kids and I almost would go 
so far. 

909
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,760
Maybe I would not almost, I 
would say like if you can't do 

910
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:24,680
that, like if you can't just 
treat people well and just not 

911
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,800
be an asshole, You know, you're 
you're you're setting yourself 

912
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,800
up for an incredible fall 
whenever it's going to be, but 

913
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,240
it will happen because sooner or
later you're going to come 

914
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:37,120
across a bigger asshole and he 
or she's going. 

915
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,920
To yes. 
Going to make it hurt and. 

916
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,120
It's the same with bullies. 
You know, there's always a 

917
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,200
bigger bully, like somebody's 
somebody's meaner. 

918
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,280
I, I think everyone gets so 
dramatic in their pendulum shift

919
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,200
and they're like, oh, you know, 
you're just, you know, you, you,

920
00:50:55,240 --> 00:50:58,120
you're just being a softie and 
you're not enforcing standards. 

921
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,320
And lots of like, no, not that. 
I'm just just like, we spend 

922
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,080
more time with these people than
we do the people. 

923
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,240
We, we, we're married to our 
spouses, our partners and our 

924
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:10,520
kids. 
Wouldn't it be nice to make 

925
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,440
that, you know, 8/10/12 hours of
just a little bit more 

926
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,400
enjoyable? 
Yeah, not an absolute like death

927
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,040
March. 
Yeah, it would be. 

928
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,840
It would be great, but I did 
want to, I wanted to go back a 

929
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,400
little bit to the, to the 
Mogadishu thing, everybody, you 

930
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,480
know, sorry I took this. 
I took this generomo. 

931
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,760
No, This is why this is what I 
wanted to talk to you about. 

932
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,840
But you know, everybody's aware 
of the movie Black Hawk Down in 

933
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,000
the book and all that kind of 
stuff. 

934
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,360
You know, they were awesome. 
I loved them both. 

935
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,560
What was your initial reaction 
when you, when you and your, 

936
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,640
your friends and, you know, 
teammates heard like, oh, 

937
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:51,880
there's going to be a book 
coming out? 

938
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,960
Obviously I know you're involved
in the writing of the book and 

939
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,800
all that kind of stuff. 
But was it far enough after the 

940
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,480
fact where you're like, OK, now 
I've got some perspective on 

941
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,960
this? 
Or was it still like a little 

942
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,040
too fresh in your mind where 
you're like, I don't know, man. 

943
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:06,800
Like I remember what happened, 
but I'm not. 

944
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,960
I don't know that I have any 
broad thoughts about it. 

945
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,920
So this is this is, it's a great
question because in 2026 with, 

946
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:22,160
you know, or, or, or our media 
and the, our ability to do all 

947
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,080
of the technology that we have, 
everything's real time, 

948
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,400
everything's fast, it happens 
and all this stuff, you know, 

949
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:34,360
this is the battle happened in 
1993 as a reference and sometime

950
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:40,000
in 1994 ish, I can't remember 
exactly right. 

951
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,120
I'm walking into to, to work to 
the third range of battalion and

952
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,960
the, the company commander is 
standing on the front steps as 

953
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,240
I'm, I'm walking literally in it
at 5:30 and whatever time in the

954
00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:54,680
morning, you know, and give him 
the salute and greeting And he's

955
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,160
like, yeah, B Sergeant and 
everything be in the, the 

956
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:01,160
conference room at, you know, at
09 because there's, there's a 

957
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,640
journalist that wants to talk to
some, some of you. 

958
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:05,840
You're like, you know, yes, Sir.
OK. 

959
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,880
And show up at 09. 
And it's this guy named Mark 

960
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:14,360
Bowden and public affairs 
officers and, and I promise the 

961
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,240
story will make sense in a SEC. 
We sit down and apparently we we

962
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:21,360
talked for a couple of hours. 
You know, he and I didn't, there

963
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:27,400
were probably 568 Rangers that 
Bowden had gotten permission to 

964
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,600
speak to. 
And I was one of them and did 

965
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,960
this long interview. 
And I remember he turned on a 

966
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,920
tape recorder and can I just 
started talking and poor guys 

967
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,760
eyes are like rolling back in 
his head and you know, left and 

968
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,240
sort of went on to training and 
that was that. 

969
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,160
Never thought about it, never 
heard from him, nothing 0 like 

970
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,760
that. 
Was that probably in I think it 

971
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:59,840
was in if it was December, it 
was either like December of 1996

972
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,960
or December of 1997, one of the 
two. 

973
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,280
And this thing called the 
Internet had just come out. 

974
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:14,520
Like it just literally came out 
and I'm walking into work again 

975
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:18,160
and one of these these little 
nerdy privates is like starting 

976
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,560
everyone. 
I can hear your voice on the 

977
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,920
radio. 
What the fuck are you talking 

978
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:25,000
about? 
Pardon me. 

979
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,360
And and this Philadelphia 
Inquirer where Mark Bowden work 

980
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:36,400
had set up a website and they 
were publishing 1 chapter each 

981
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,160
day. 
And I don't even think it had a 

982
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,400
title, but it was about the 
battle in Mogadishu. 

983
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:43,040
That was it. 
And, you know, it was being 

984
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:49,600
simultaneously printed in all 
the Knight Ridder newspapers. 

985
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:50,440
And they were. 
Doing. 

986
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,920
Online and I didn't have a 
computer then, didn't even know 

987
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,600
what 1 and why anybody would 
have such a thing and I'm like 

988
00:54:58,600 --> 00:54:59,760
this. 
Poor kid sounds great. 

989
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,440
Was a hacker, he probably the 
pastor probably stole something 

990
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,480
and I didn't get the newspaper 
because, you know, I'm 27 or 28,

991
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,040
whatever it is. 
And anyway to land the whole 

992
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:17,400
plane, knock on my door in my 
apartment that weekend and a 

993
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,080
buddy of mine comes in and he 
drops the Philadelphia Inquirer 

994
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,400
on the floor. 
And I'm like, what the hell. 

995
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,880
He's like, man, you're on the 
front page. 

996
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,840
And sure enough, that was the 
the what turned out to be the 

997
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,080
book Black Hawk Down came out, 
you know, right there in this 

998
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,040
newspaper. 
And this is all long winded 

999
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,320
thing to answer your question, I
had totally forgotten about the 

1000
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,680
interview. 
I mean, I certainly feel events 

1001
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,160
that were always, you know, I'd 
totally forgotten about the 

1002
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,440
interview And, and, and I 
remember like looking at it, I'm

1003
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:52,960
like, huh, that's interesting. 
I, I, I wonder if anybody will 

1004
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,080
read it. 
Like that was my first time. 

1005
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,360
I wonder if anybody will read 
it. 

1006
00:55:56,720 --> 00:56:03,720
And the server on the 
Philadelphia Inquirer website 

1007
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:08,640
crashed that day because there 
were so many, there were like 

1008
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,240
250,000 hits and you know, like 
the first two minutes and just, 

1009
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:14,800
you know, blew the whole thing 
up. 

1010
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,920
And, and it's sort of a fun 
story, but the, the idea was 

1011
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,120
like, you know, at that time we 
were like, hey, history, it's 

1012
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,200
done like that. 
That really aim to kind of cut 

1013
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,360
to the cheese that we were like,
wow, man. 

1014
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,640
Like, I mean, that's cool and 
all, but you know, we're, we're 

1015
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,080
focused on now we're focused on 
the next mission. 

1016
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:37,320
And I remember, you know, 
reading in it again, thinking, I

1017
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,280
don't even remember this dude. 
I don't even remember this guy. 

1018
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,040
This Internet stuff doesn't make
any sense. 

1019
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,520
And sure enough, about a year 
later, all of a sudden the the 

1020
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,960
the book came out. 
And then, you know, it just 

1021
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:59,120
became, and I must admit it, a 
little strange for me, being the

1022
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:03,400
first guy mentioned in the, the 
book and then being a character,

1023
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:08,040
for whatever reason they chose 
to be in the movie kind of gives

1024
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:15,240
me a unique circumstance that 
it's, it's just wild. 

1025
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,720
I guess the, the, the, the final
comment, at least to, to that 

1026
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:25,440
question, though, is personally,
you know, I, I, I made peace 

1027
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,640
with the experience in Mogadishu
really early on, like, you know,

1028
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:34,880
went through the grief of losing
soldiers and friends, processing

1029
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,800
all that, you know, young, we 
don't normally talk about 

1030
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,080
mortality as as young men and 
women and maybe even as old men 

1031
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:42,880
and women. 
We don't. 

1032
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:47,440
But you know, going through all 
that, that trauma of, of battle,

1033
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,760
you know, I'm very thankful 
that, that I was able, I 

1034
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,200
believe, to process and deal 
with and, you know, kind of spit

1035
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,360
out the bad and keep the good 
and all that kind of stuff. 

1036
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,520
So when this all came out, it 
wasn't at all like, Oh my gosh, 

1037
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,200
you know, the, the, the 
memories. 

1038
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,200
I mean, yeah, there's some sad 
stuff. 

1039
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,040
Then you revisit. 
But it also was like, man, those

1040
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:08,920
guys are pretty freaking brave. 
Holy shit. 

1041
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,040
Look at what these guys. 
Yeah. 

1042
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,600
And I'm learning about what 
other guys did on the 

1043
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,040
battlefield because, you know, 
you know, all I know really 

1044
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,600
first hand is the stuff, you 
know, in my, my so that was, I 

1045
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:23,480
found it on the other hand to be
like, it's fascinating. 

1046
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,880
That's the really interesting 
part to me, Matt, I just read 

1047
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,160
this past week your first hand 
account, the Battle of Mogadishu

1048
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:35,480
book that has your account in 
several other soldiers who were 

1049
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,240
there that day or the following 
days too. 

1050
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:44,880
And that was my one of my main 
takeaways was they all had their

1051
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:50,160
sort of like pie piece view of 
what happened that day, you 

1052
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,080
know, which makes complete 
sense. 

1053
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,000
But when you read the book or 
you read, they do such a nice 

1054
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,680
job of tying all the narratives 
in, like orienting you around 

1055
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,840
the city of like, OK, Matt's 
unit is here now and the crash 

1056
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,120
site is over here and the convoy
is doing this. 

1057
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,240
So you have like this large 
picture in your head. 

1058
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,160
But like you said for you, you 
were like, I saw this four way 

1059
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,880
intersection. 
That's what I saw. 

1060
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,800
And then I was in a Humvee and 
then I saw that. 

1061
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,280
And then I was on the airfield 
and it's all just. 

1062
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,920
So when you read the book or you
know, have you seen the movie? 

1063
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,480
I know that's a crazy question, 
but have you watched the movie? 

1064
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:35,440
I have and you know it. 
It was one of those I I I can't 

1065
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,200
don't want to be a weasel, but 
I, I got to see the first 

1066
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:44,280
private screening up up at new 
up in Sony headquarters in New 

1067
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:49,640
York by myself. 
Oh, cool. 

1068
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,320
Yeah. 
No, it was, it was really pretty

1069
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:57,120
cool. 
And I remember like, it was 

1070
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,920
walking into this, as you might 
imagine, what a screening room 

1071
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,120
at Sony headquarters in New York
looks like. 

1072
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,720
It's it is that cool? 
At least it wasn't. 

1073
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,760
And I remember getting ready to 
sit down in the seat, you know, 

1074
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,960
by myself. 
And it dawned on me, like, man, 

1075
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,760
what? 
What happens if this thing 

1076
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:16,960
sucks? 
You know, like. 

1077
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,360
Really. 
Like, you know, I'm getting 

1078
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,000
like, you know, there's a 
character forever named Matt 

1079
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,720
Eversman. 
Yeah. 

1080
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,800
Is just going to be there. 
And if this, if, if this, if 

1081
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,400
they flubbed it, you know, this 
is Barney Fife Eversman, you 

1082
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,360
know, like this. 
And I remember really being 

1083
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,480
being nervous. 
And then they opened the thing 

1084
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:45,040
up and man, 3 hours later, I'm 
sitting on the front of my seat.

1085
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,200
I mean, truly sitting on the 
front of my seat. 

1086
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:53,600
And I, I, again, it's hard to be
objective and I appreciate why 

1087
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,040
somebody would say that, you 
know, really can't listen to 

1088
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,840
Matt on this. 
But if I could be somewhat 

1089
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,440
objective, I, I, I would say I 
think it's very authentic and I 

1090
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:07,400
think they did a very good job. 
As close to being real as 

1091
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,920
Hollywood can be given, you 
know, the movie formula. 

1092
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,800
Cause. 
And I also had the benefit of, 

1093
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:15,960
of, of talking to, to Jerry 
Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott 

1094
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,120
about how they make movies. 
And, you know, I got to go to 

1095
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:23,400
the set and listen to, you know,
hey, they, they can only, you 

1096
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,320
can't tell an 18 hour gunfight 
in 18 hours. 

1097
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,480
You got to condense it and you 
can only have a couple of 

1098
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,000
characters. 
So we got to got to mold some 

1099
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:33,560
together. 
Like there's a formula that they

1100
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,120
follow. 
And sure, I, I, I will say I, I,

1101
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:40,600
I did, I think they did, I think
they did a, a good job. 

1102
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,600
And the fact that here it is 20,
I came out in 2001, December of 

1103
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,040
2001. 
So 25 years later, it's still 

1104
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,520
you walk on a plane and I'm, I'm
seeing somebody watching on the 

1105
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:54,160
plane and I'm like, yes, it's 
almost, I, I feel like I should 

1106
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,080
say something, but I don't, I 
just got to sit back. 

1107
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,560
And if they only knew. 
That's another question. 

1108
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:05,680
It's, it's interesting. 
I, it's a really good movie. 

1109
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,840
I and I remember at the time it 
came out, I was, I don't know, 

1110
01:02:08,840 --> 01:02:11,480
2829 when it came out. 
And I remember thinking like 

1111
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,840
this is one of the best like of 
these type of movies. 

1112
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:17,960
And I knew it was really Scott. 
So I knew it would be great. 

1113
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,560
And I was like, this is really, 
really good, but I didn't know 

1114
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,440
I'd read the book. 
But you never know, like what's 

1115
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,320
real and what's a composite 
character and that sort of 

1116
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,680
thing. 
But to hear your experience 

1117
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,440
getting to talk to the director 
and the producers and you know 

1118
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,480
that private screening, that's, 
that's a really kind thing I 

1119
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,160
would assume that they did for 
you because. 

1120
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,120
Yeah. 
Sitting at a crowded theatre 

1121
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,640
would not have been much fun for
you, I can't imagine. 

1122
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:47,000
Yeah, it, I eventually got to go
see it in crowded theatres 

1123
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,120
because every one of your 
friends was like, hey, I want to

1124
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:50,480
watch it with you. 
I'm waiting to watch it with 

1125
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:51,000
you. 
And. 

1126
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:57,000
Oh my God, it's not like it's 
not a ROM com that we're going 

1127
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:01,360
to see. 
I I mean, I bet I saw it easily 

1128
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:04,080
a dozen times at theaters and 
business. 

1129
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,920
But and again, I loved every 
minute of it because your 

1130
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:09,840
friends that care and want to do
it with you. 

1131
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:15,200
But what I was going to say, you
know, about the, you know, the, 

1132
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:19,160
the movie folks with and this I 
think is worth worth singing out

1133
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:23,000
loud too, because I went out 
prepared to completely hate all 

1134
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,520
the Hollywood people. 
Of course, go ahead. 

1135
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,520
That I am. 
And I'm like, you know, you 

1136
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:31,040
know, you know, Hollywood super 
liberal match, super 

1137
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,960
conservative, and you know, we 
don't nary the two shall meet. 

1138
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,920
And, you know, just all that 
knucklehead stuff. 

1139
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,240
And certainly there's a little 
bit of truth in both sides. 

1140
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,680
But I got to tell you from day 
one, from literally the first 

1141
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:50,840
time that I walked into Jerry 
Bruckheimer's office at his 

1142
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:55,800
invitation to come out and, and 
see the, the, the first draft of

1143
01:03:55,800 --> 01:04:02,000
the the screenplay till the 
couple of premiere movie 

1144
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:06,000
premieres we were invited to. 
They were nothing but 

1145
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,520
professional, like truly and not
being patronizing, not being, 

1146
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:15,280
you know, like saccharine, you 
know, here's our our army guys 

1147
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,360
and let's just be. 
No, they were just they, they 

1148
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:24,360
treated certainly me nothing but
professionally and kindly. 

1149
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:31,520
And yeah, I, I, I, I, I walked 
away like wow, man, I this shame

1150
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:34,360
on me again. 
Shame on me for, for being that 

1151
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,160
guy. 
And also, wow, talk about 

1152
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,560
creative, like that whole group,
it's like the most creative 

1153
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:43,720
people in the world. 
And they all work hard. 

1154
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:47,560
They all work so freaking hard. 
I mean, everybody in that 

1155
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,600
industry works hard, at least 
what I saw on on a movie set, 

1156
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,080
which was kind of new, kind of 
cool. 

1157
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,560
Oh yeah, making a movie looks 
like an absolute nightmare 

1158
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,080
experience. 
Like it looks so hard. 

1159
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:00,720
Yeah, just in the movie, let 
alone something like that. 

1160
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,880
It it's like the, you know, it's
like a military operation. 

1161
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,400
I mean, it really is, you know, 
and Ridley Scott and Jerry are 

1162
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,720
the generals. 
But then, you know, and they're,

1163
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,680
they're doing great things up, 
up, up high, but then down low, 

1164
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:16,240
you know, they've got the 
Sergeant major just cracking 

1165
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:19,680
heads keeping people in mind 
and, you know, jerking and not 

1166
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,560
in the ass of the actor. 
It's like, Hey, I don't give a 

1167
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,240
shit who you are. 
You're you're doing what I say. 

1168
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:27,840
You're like, oh, wow, that guy's
that guy's kind of scary. 

1169
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,120
That was cool. 
It really was cool. 

1170
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,360
That's that's a podcast for for 
another day. 

1171
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,800
There's so many cool things to 
to talk about the movie set, 

1172
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:37,280
but. 
Oh, I'm sure. 

1173
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:39,360
I mean. 
Then they were so kind. 

1174
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:43,040
They they really were. 
And to this day, I always got a 

1175
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,000
soft spot for for Jerry 
Bruckheimer and Ridley Scott for

1176
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,000
sure. 
That's great to hear. 

1177
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,720
I love that and it I'm sure it 
doesn't hurt that Josh Hartnett 

1178
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,240
played you. 
So, you know, that's, that's not

1179
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:58,240
tough. 
Shocking comparison, you know, 

1180
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:03,320
with me and I, I will say again,
lovely young guy. 

1181
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:06,000
Couldn't have been, couldn't 
have been more more friendly. 

1182
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,520
It was a little awkward, as you 
might imagine, for both of us. 

1183
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,200
Like I'm sure. 
It's just really strange that 

1184
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:15,840
this guy goes out with, you 
know, at the time was like, I'm 

1185
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,320
dating Scarlett Johansson and 
I'm not, you know, you're like, 

1186
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,880
wow, this this guy is like my 
hero. 

1187
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:25,880
But he was very kind. 
Josh was was was wonderful. 

1188
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:32,560
And he I think he did again, how
can I be objective? 

1189
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,200
But I think he did that a good 
job. 

1190
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,880
I mean, the character, again, at
the end of the day, I'm like, I 

1191
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,120
don't look at it and be like, 
oh, man, that's sort of nervous,

1192
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:43,080
man, you know, horrible. 
I'm like, no, you know, I mean, 

1193
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:46,000
a couple of things that anyone 
knows me knows that's it's not 

1194
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:51,080
quite my personality, but it, it
was for the movie and for the 

1195
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:52,880
role. 
It it, it worked. 

1196
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,880
And yeah, far more good than 
than any bad. 

1197
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,840
And if there is any bad, it's 
it's minuscule shit. 

1198
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,560
Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, the the movie still 

1199
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,200
holds up 25 years later. 
It's, you know, the story is 

1200
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:12,200
there and it's, you know, 
realistic from, you know, it's a

1201
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:17,240
layperson's point of view. 
And yeah, it's, it's really well

1202
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:18,720
done. 
It's it just sounds like a 

1203
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:23,880
completely surreal experience 
seeing you know you're you're a 

1204
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:27,240
someone playing you on a on a 60
foot movie screen. 

1205
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,120
It's it's it is, it's 
buffoonery. 

1206
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:34,360
There's no doubt about it. 
But you know, it also fair to 

1207
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:38,320
say too, and and again, I'm I 
know I'm not the expert film 

1208
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,960
critic or anything, but I've 
told people a million times 

1209
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:43,480
since then. 
I'm like, you know, if you want 

1210
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,760
to know what urban battles like,
watch that movie. 

1211
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,520
Like at least regardless of 
storyline, what watch the movie.

1212
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:55,760
It's that, you know, frenetic, 
it's that chaotic Ridley Scott 

1213
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:00,280
purposely made the volume, made 
it louder to the point that, you

1214
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,200
know, because he wanted people 
to to really feel it. 

1215
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,680
And, you know, all the bad 
things that happened are are 

1216
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:08,880
legitimately all the bad things 
that happened. 

1217
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,920
And so if you want to know, you 
know, you could you could say to

1218
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:14,960
somebody, hey, man, what would 
you have done? 

1219
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,279
Whether you're saying that in a 
yeah, you know, don't be a 

1220
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:21,399
Monday morning quarterback or 
hey, it's really hard. 

1221
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:22,680
What I mean, what would you have
done? 

1222
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:24,680
I, you know, guys are running on
the roof with RPG. 

1223
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:26,920
What what do you do? 
How do you how do you combat 

1224
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:28,920
that? 
You know, so that that movie, I 

1225
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:34,080
think does have a legit purpose 
specifically to that because of 

1226
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:38,240
that battle was so unique. 
And then it was played out, you 

1227
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:43,160
know, in, you know, 20 years in 
Iraq and Afghanistan too, you 

1228
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:44,960
know, in very similar 
environment. 

1229
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,840
So I think it it does give you a
visual. 

1230
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:53,760
I am shocked at how many, you 
know, how many soldiers in 

1231
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,560
particular. 
But people in general will, will

1232
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,080
say, like, you know, grandmother
will come up to me. 

1233
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,359
And it's like, that's my 
grandson's favorite movie. 

1234
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:03,920
I'm like, well, you know, how 
old's your grandson? 

1235
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,279
Like he's 10. 
What? 

1236
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:08,720
Like what are you? 
Doing What are we doing? 

1237
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:15,120
No, I mean, but yeah, no, a lot 
of people just and God love 

1238
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:19,040
them, but I find it just it's 
it's it's well done. 

1239
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,720
It's really well. 
But I I can't say it's my 

1240
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,520
favorite movie, but. 
I I would think not. 

1241
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:29,240
It's Yeah, it it seems like one 
of those things it is cool to 

1242
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,000
have done. 
Like, it's cool that it exists, 

1243
01:09:32,399 --> 01:09:35,000
but you probably don't want to 
sit down on a Saturday afternoon

1244
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:36,840
and watch it again. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1245
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,880
Well, well, would, would you? 
You know, we, we showed it to my

1246
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:41,960
daughter. 
We're blessed with I was going 

1247
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,920
to ask you that and we. 
We sort of, you know, Molly 

1248
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,880
would didn't, really couldn't 
figure it out until, you know, 

1249
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:52,000
she got a little bit older and 
older and she knew the story. 

1250
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,440
But we said like, yeah, we're, 
we're, we're we're not going to 

1251
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:58,800
watch it And, and until, you 
know, the right time and when 

1252
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:00,640
you watch it, you're going to 
watch it with mom and dad. 

1253
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:07,000
And, you know, I think it was 
when she was 15. 

1254
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,320
I think of 15, we watched it 
together for the first time. 

1255
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:15,480
And, you know, as you can 
imagine how dramatic that might 

1256
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:20,880
be, it was just that and, you 
know, very great family moment. 

1257
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,240
But, you know, she's like, yeah,
I don't need to see it again. 

1258
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:24,960
Like, and my wife's the same 
thing. 

1259
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:26,360
She's like, yeah, I don't need 
to see it again. 

1260
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:32,200
I'm like, I hear you. 
I do, but people, people, people

1261
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:36,840
who it's, you know, just, you 
know, sort of divorce myself 

1262
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:39,400
from the reality. 
I just find it interesting like 

1263
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:43,240
because it's I tell people all 
the time when they that haven't 

1264
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:46,000
seen it, I'm like, you know, 
it's not a happy movie. 

1265
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:48,520
I mean, sure, there's depictions
of incredible courage and 

1266
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:52,240
bravery and tenacity and all 
this it resolve of the fighting 

1267
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:55,160
man and woman and all that 
stuff, but you know, it's not, 

1268
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:58,600
you know, you got to be in the 
right mind to be uplifted. 

1269
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:01,280
Yeah. 
The end of it all, and 

1270
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,920
certainly, you know, that's the 
theme is all very uplifting, but

1271
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:08,040
it's, it's, it's, it's tragic, 
you know, I mean, it's just just

1272
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:10,320
reality of combat and combat 
sucks. 

1273
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:17,480
Combat's evil, scary and sad. 
Yeah, having never gone through 

1274
01:11:17,480 --> 01:11:21,400
that, I was struck by your in 
that first person account that 

1275
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:26,960
you wrote early on in that you 
talk about how, you know, you, 

1276
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:31,000
you were kind of eager to like 
go to combat in like that's a, 

1277
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,120
you know, a very common mindset 
in the young soldier of like, I 

1278
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:37,200
want to go and test myself in 
this way. 

1279
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:42,160
I'm curious what your, you know,
reaction was after that. 

1280
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:46,000
You mentioned that you had been 
on submissions previous to, you 

1281
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:51,520
know, the events of October 3rd.
But I I'm curious what your what

1282
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:55,680
your mindset was afterwards? 
Yeah, well, you know, it's a 

1283
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,880
couple of things that come 
through and they all seemingly 

1284
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:04,680
might be pulling in opposite 
directions. 

1285
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,200
Could you realize, I guess in no
particular order, Dennis, you 

1286
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:10,640
know, what I realized is like, 
you know, they're they're bad 

1287
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:14,040
people out here, evil people, 
enemies that that want to do us 

1288
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:15,720
harm. 
And we need we need to fight 

1289
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:17,880
them. 
Like that's there's just new two

1290
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:19,960
ways about it. 
We need a force that's willing 

1291
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:23,480
to go and, you know, and fight 
like that. 

1292
01:12:23,480 --> 01:12:27,960
There's no, that's it. 
And that I got, and I also 

1293
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,840
realized like, man, you know, 
it's an imperfect science and 

1294
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:35,320
you only learn by doing it, you 
know, being you, you only learn 

1295
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:37,120
how to get better by by by doing
it. 

1296
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,400
And, you know, you think about 
all the mistakes that were made.

1297
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,440
And I'm talking about just me, 
my mistakes, man. 

1298
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:46,160
You know, I, I, I wish somebody 
would have told me some of this 

1299
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:49,360
stuff before. 
You know, I never talked to any 

1300
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,080
guys that have been to combat 
before. 

1301
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:54,680
And even though I surrounded by 
him and all these guys in the 

1302
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,120
Rangers that have been to 
Panama, you know, and jumped in 

1303
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:01,640
and that been in fights, you 
know, I was too, too nervous or 

1304
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:06,400
intimidated to ask him. 
And for whatever reason, nobody 

1305
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:08,400
felt like they was worth 
sharing. 

1306
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:12,360
And after this battle on October
3rd, you know, guys that have 

1307
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,040
been to both of them said, man, 
you know, I thought Panama was, 

1308
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:18,760
you know, blah, blah, blah. 
And then this, this just was 10 

1309
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:20,200
times different. 
I'm like, well, shit, that would

1310
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:24,600
have been good to know. 
And then I think I also realized

1311
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:29,320
like, you know, and this took a 
little longer to figure out, but

1312
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:35,040
it was like, man, I hope that 
whoever is in charge, you know, 

1313
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,840
is doing this for doing this, 
meaning sending us, you know, 

1314
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:40,200
they better be doing for a good 
reason. 

1315
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:44,360
Because when you got to go home 
and introduce yourself to a 23 

1316
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:49,480
year old widow and explain to 
her or him in this case, you 

1317
01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:53,760
know, in the current time, but 
you got to explain to them, you 

1318
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,120
know, we've just turned your 
world completely upside down 

1319
01:13:56,120 --> 01:14:00,680
forever. 
And it was worth it because. 

1320
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:05,480
And some people might have a 
very stock answer for that. 

1321
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:07,920
I find that to be really 
challenging sort of in the don't

1322
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:09,960
be an asshole, you know, 
category. 

1323
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:12,600
Like, you know, you can't 
bullshit this person. 

1324
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:15,920
If you do, you're a bad person. 
But so how do you how do you 

1325
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:20,240
justify, you know, that to to a 
young widow? 

1326
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,840
And sometimes you can like, hey,
man, he he died protecting 

1327
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,520
somebody. 
Like I can tell you when he took

1328
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,240
his last breath, he did this and
that was that. 

1329
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:35,000
And they're like cool. 
But then when you look and you 

1330
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,960
Fast forward, you know, go for 
further Dennis, you know, and 

1331
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,800
you're like, say, for instance, 
at the at the beginning, back to

1332
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,000
our favorite strategic world, 
you know, like so we left 19 

1333
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:48,680
bodies, you know, 19 bodies of, 
you know, blood on the streets 

1334
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,800
of Mogadishu. 
And it's no better off today. 

1335
01:14:52,440 --> 01:14:55,920
You know, that's the kind of the
answer is we need strong 

1336
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:57,240
defense. 
We need people that want to 

1337
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:00,960
fight and we kids to protect and
serve 100% then some. 

1338
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:03,320
But man, if you're going to use 
them, the people that are going 

1339
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:05,640
to use them better have their 
shit straight. 

1340
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:11,400
And I'm not sure that all of 
them in concert always do. 

1341
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,280
And now that we got to go down 
the whole political rabbit hole,

1342
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,920
I don't mean to, you know, we 
all have our opinions, but 

1343
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,920
universally, when you ask, you 
know, what to learn, what do you

1344
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:22,880
take away at Mike? 
Yeah, man, it's easy to talk a 

1345
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:24,280
big game until you've been shot 
at. 

1346
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:28,320
And some people once is enough 
and call it a day. 

1347
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,760
And I don't blame them. 
And other people are like, hey, 

1348
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:33,280
man, no, I, I despite all that, 
I still want to. 

1349
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:36,120
I still want to serve. 
And and I wanted to continue 

1350
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,040
serving. 
And so I went up doing, you 

1351
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:40,320
know, 20 years and, and a couple
extra months. 

1352
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:45,240
But I did, I think everybody 
would tell you it's, it's scary 

1353
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:50,320
and it's, it's not, it's no fun 
when you see, you know, a friend

1354
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:55,280
of yours get get hurt or killed.
There's just nothing cool, 

1355
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:58,240
nothing sexy, nothing. 
All that stuff goes out the 

1356
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,680
window and you're like that. 
That's a really tough, that's a 

1357
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:04,920
bitter pill to swallow. 
And sadly, it's a reality of 

1358
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:07,440
that profession. 
Yeah, I'm sorry. 

1359
01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:09,080
I didn't mean to bring us all 
the way down. 

1360
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:12,000
I asked the question. 
I'm the idiot you. 

1361
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,120
Know, it's serious business too,
you know, and it's not something

1362
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:19,600
we can take lightly and it's 
not, you know, it just isn't. 

1363
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:24,120
And I think sometimes, again, 
over, you know, decades, we've 

1364
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:28,120
gotten a little numb to it. 
You know, we citizens have 

1365
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:33,800
gotten a little numb to American
sons and daughters being out in,

1366
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,000
you know, in in tough spots for 
us. 

1367
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:39,160
And they are today, I mean, real
time. 

1368
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:45,760
It's, it's almost 5 of, you 
know, 6IN in Mogadishu. 

1369
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:49,080
And we got people out there 
fighting Al Shabaab, you know, 

1370
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:51,160
get after it and God love him 
for it. 

1371
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:54,760
But hopefully it's hopefully 
they get home safely. 

1372
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:59,560
Anyway, That's, that's, that's a
long, long answer to your to 

1373
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,880
your question, my friend and I, 
I'm sorry. 

1374
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:04,160
Not at all. 
No. 

1375
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:09,040
I mean, yeah, I Yeah. 
Well, I think that's probably a 

1376
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,600
great place to end it. 
Matt, I I can't thank you enough

1377
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:14,120
for all your time. 
And, I mean, this was an 

1378
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:17,240
absolute honor to have you on 
here and to get to hear your 

1379
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:22,640
story and hear your your lessons
and hear your thoughts on 

1380
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:26,480
resilience and leadership. 
And you know how you've gone 

1381
01:17:26,480 --> 01:17:29,080
about that in your career. 
Thank you so much for your time.

1382
01:17:29,480 --> 01:17:32,720
Yeah, well, Dennis, thank you. 
And again, I know an unlikely 

1383
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:36,080
guest, you know, in the cyber 
world, but I do appreciate you 

1384
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:41,520
having, having me on and thank 
you for for all you're doing. 

1385
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:44,560
And yeah, man, it's it's it's 
it's a good day. 

1386
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:45,840
It's a good way to spend the 
morning. 

1387
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:48,280
I appreciate the the fun 
conversation. 

1388
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:49,920
Good questions. 
All right. 

1389
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,520
Thanks a lot, Matt. 
Take care of yourself. 

1390
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:53,680
Hi buddy, be safe. 
You too.