1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,320 Deep in the Old Forest, 4 hobbits, Frodo, Sam, Mary, and 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,680 Pippen followed a path beside the river with a windle. 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,960 The afternoon sun beat down upon them, and a mysterious 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:16,920 drowsiness began to steal over them. 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,040 Soon all four hobbits had succumbed to the enchantment of 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,520 a massive ancient Willow tree. Mary and Pippen leaned against 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,080 its trunk while Frodo wandered toward the riverbank where the 8 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:28,120 willows roots stretched into the water. 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,800 Sam alone remained vigilant. When he returned from gathering 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,280 their ponies, he discovered Frodo partly submerged in the 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,280 water, held down by a tree root. After pulling him free, they 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,640 found to their horror that Pippen had vanished entirely 13 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,600 into a crack in the tree's trunk while Mary was half trapped, his 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,080 legs still visible outside. Their attempts to free their 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,840 friends proved useless. In desperation, Sam suggested 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,600 fire, and they began to build a small blaze against the tree's 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,440 trunk. The Willow trembled with rage, 18 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,400 and Mary screamed that he was being squeezed tighter. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,640 Frodo, panic stricken, ran on the path crying for help. 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,440 And then, remarkably, an answer came someone singing 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,520 nonsensically, drawing closer. Suddenly a curious figure 22 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,000 appeared, a man in a blue coat with battered hat, yellow boots 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,400 and a long brown beard, carrying water lilies. 24 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,520 Help, cried Frodo and Sam, rushing toward him. 25 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,400 Whoa, whoa, steady there, cried the man, holding up one hand, 26 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,400 and they stopped short. Now, my little fellows, whereby 27 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,440 you are going to puff in like a bellows. 28 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,760 What's the matter here then? Do you know who I am? 29 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,360 I'm Tom Bombadil. Trouble. 30 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,560 Tom's in a hurry now, don't you crush by lilies. 31 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,720 My friends are caught in the Willow tree, cried Frodo 32 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,560 breathlessly. Master Mary's being squeezed in 33 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,560 a crack, cried Sam. What? 34 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,680 Shouted Tom Bombadil, leaping up in the air. 35 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,000 Old Man Willow. Not worse than that, eh? 36 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,520 That can soon be mended. I know the tune for him, Old 37 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,760 Grey Willow man, I'll freeze his marrow coal if he don't behave 38 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,040 himself. I'll sig his roots off. 39 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,720 I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. 40 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,320 Old Man Willow. Setting down his lilies 41 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,960 carefully on the grass, he ran to the tree, began singing into 42 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,720 the crack, broke off a branch and struck the Willow with it. 43 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,200 You let them out again, old Man Willow, he said. 44 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,080 What were you thinking of? You should not be waking. 45 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,400 Eat earth, dig deep, drink water, go to sleep. 46 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,760 Bombadil is talking. He seized Mary's feet and pulled 47 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,800 him free with a crack. Pippin sprang out as if kicked. 48 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,720 The Willow shuddered from root to tip and fell silent. 49 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,840 Thank you, said the hobbits. Bombadil burst out laughing. 50 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,880 Well, my little fellows, said he, stooping to peer into their 51 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,640 faces, you shall come home with me. 52 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:39,040 The table is all laden with yellow cream, honeycomb and 53 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,120 white bread and butter. Goldberry is waiting time and 54 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,160 answer for questions. Please set a supper table. 55 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,760 You follow after me as quick as you are able. 56 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,120 With that, he picked up his lilies and danced away along the 57 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,120 path, beckoning the grateful Hobbits to follow. 58 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,080 Welcome to the Imagination Redeemed podcast where we follow 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,160 the great stories further up and further in In Pursuit of the 60 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:11,200 Life of Christ. Welcome to this special episode 61 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,840 of the Imagination Redeemed podcast, which is also the kick 62 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,120 off to our four week exploration of what the character of Tom 63 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,680 Bombadil can teach us about vocation, calling, and mastery. 64 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,360 If you'd like to participate in the reading group and you're not 65 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,760 with us live as we're recording this, head over to 66 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,800 anselmsociety.org/bombadil to sign up because only this first 67 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,440 conversation will be on the podcast. 68 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,880 Before we get started, I have to thank Anselm's publications 69 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,120 team, especially Caroline Williams, our associate editor 70 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,680 and outreach coordinator, whose hard work and creativity made 71 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,920 this harebrained idea possible. This is what it is like to work 72 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,600 with me. I read a book and I come 73 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,840 charging out, brandishing and saying this is awesome. 74 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,320 We should make people talk about it with us. 75 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,200 And Caroline threw herself in and made it real. 76 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,920 So we are joined by Pastor Chris Wiley, whose book In the House 77 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,720 of Tom Bombadil inspired this series. 78 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,760 CR Wiley, thank you for joining us. 79 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,880 Thanks for having me, Brian. I'm really glad to be with you. 80 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,760 So let's just start with the the the obvious question to me, 81 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,640 which is you are a pastor, writer, grandfather, you've done 82 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,440 so many things. What prompted you to put the 83 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,760 time that it took into writing this particular book? 84 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:29,640 Well, I think I just simply was puzzled and pleased with my 85 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,600 introduction to Bombadil, and I wanted to learn a little more 86 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,640 about him. I had some hunches when it came 87 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,800 to what Tolkien was up to with the character, and I wanted to 88 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:45,320 see if those hunches were right. And also, I have a, a background 89 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,320 writing on the theme of the household, and I thought Tom in 90 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,600 particular added a dimension to the things I had written before 91 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,040 that was worth exploring and could compliment some of the 92 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,000 other things I had done. So that also played a role. 93 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,480 So those things were pretty significant. 94 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,880 And I also think that there's some things going on, 95 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:16,520 particularly with language and even metaphysics with Tom, that 96 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,120 are really important for actually understanding Lord of 97 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,320 the Rings, generally speaking. Have you found, as you've 98 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,280 thought about this over the years, have you found that in 99 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:30,200 your own conversations that people that have tended to have 100 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,960 a lot of differing opinions as to not just why he's important, 101 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:35,920 but even weather? Oh yeah, yeah. 102 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,000 Well I think that there are two broad groups. 103 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,320 One group just is exasperated with the character and just 104 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,960 wishes he'd go away and had never been in put in the story 105 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,520 in the 1st place and they're just don't know why he's there. 106 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,720 And then then there's another group of people who actually 107 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,880 really, really like the character a lot and we'd like to 108 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,600 know more about him. And he's enigmatic and he's 109 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,160 enigmatic on purpose. Tolkien tells us he intends him 110 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,600 to be that way, although I think he's a more fully developed 111 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,280 character in Tolkien's mind. He just gives hints here and 112 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:14,720 there about what he's thinking about and what he's doing with 113 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,480 the character. But those are the two groups, 114 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,480 broadly speaking, of the first group, they're all about action 115 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,960 and adventure, and they see this as a kind of a detour. 116 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,280 Maybe the best way to justify it is Tolkien didn't know what came 117 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,840 next, so he decided to just waste a little time on this 118 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:36,920 particular part of the book, you know, sending the hobbits into 119 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,600 the forest and until he figured out what to do. 120 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,400 But I, I know it's never satisfied with that way of 121 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,680 thinking about it. Tolkey was a very fussy writer 122 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,480 and he was known to throw out just vast reams of material if 123 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:52,120 it didn't please him. So, and then he, he did say in 124 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,160 at least one letter that told that Bombadil served a purpose 125 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:01,080 and that he was in the story quite he, he deliberately put 126 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,320 him in for, for that purpose, to serve that purpose so that then 127 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:10,880 he doesn't explain what it is. So you don't you're, you're, 128 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,440 you're left guessing a bit. And I tried to, as I, as I 129 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,520 explored the character, I tried to honor Tolkien's desire to 130 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,240 keep him a little mysterious. So I didn't try to over explain 131 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,240 him or try to pin him down. I think that would have been 132 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,680 presumptuous of me for one thing, but I also didn't want to 133 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,560 spoil the fun because I think that there's just a lot of fun 134 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,920 there. But I think I do think that, you 135 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,640 know, they're a range of theories as to just what he is 136 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,480 and why he's there and and so forth. 137 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,280 And, and they run everywhere from being just sort of a, well, 138 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,240 a character that Tolkien made-up and actually is the oldest 139 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,960 character in the story, not just in the sense that he says he's 140 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,120 the oldest character Middle Earth, but he actually is the 141 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,040 oldest character in the story because the Adventures of Tom 142 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,320 Bomber, that was actually published before The Hobbit was 143 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,640 published. So there's that. 144 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,560 But then, you know, to the other extreme where he's a Lou Vitar 145 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,320 Incarnate, some people think that, you know, he's entered 146 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,800 Middle Earth, but Tolkien put that to rest as well. 147 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,920 He said no, he's not that. So he but then he doesn't go on 148 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,160 to say much more. My, my, my one of my daughter's 149 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,120 in law theorized that maybe he's Tolkas from the Sumarillion, 150 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,320 which in a in a, in a strange sort of way can kind of work. 151 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:31,960 If you're familiar with Tolkas, He's sick. 152 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:40,120 He's one of the Valar who is kind of a wrestler and is always 153 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,240 laughing as he's wrestling. He's and even when he's pursuing 154 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,560 Morgoth or Melkor, he's having a great time. 155 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,440 So that was my that was my daughter in I don't. 156 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,320 Yeah, well, I mean, if if you're if these are the kinds of 157 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,560 conversations you're having, you're clearly marrying off your 158 00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:04,720 children very well. OK, So and, and the, the 159 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,440 Aluvitar theory, I mean, there's there's some good reasons that 160 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,680 you cover in the book as to why that's probably not it, but 161 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,480 there's also some solid initial thoughts as to why someone would 162 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,600 start barking up that tree. Can you unpack that a little 163 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:18,640 bit? Sure. 164 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,640 Well, there's that point. Well, the the identity of 165 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,240 Bombadil is something that Tom even brings up when he first 166 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,120 meets The Hobbit. So he says, you know who I am? 167 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,120 I'm Tom Bombadil. Like, you know, there you go. 168 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,400 And then he just keeps repeating it, you know, talking about 169 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:33,880 himself and his name and so forth. 170 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:40,080 But then when Frodo meets Goldberry and Thomas out of 171 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,240 earshot, he asks her directly, you know, who is this guy? 172 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,520 And then she responds, he is not. 173 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:52,240 Anyone who knows Genesis and I'm sorry, Exodus and the Gospel of 174 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,800 John would kind of get a very subtle nod to the self 175 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,040 revelation of Yahweh to Moses and the burning Bush. 176 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,760 When he asked who shall I say send me? 177 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,080 And he says I am. So the response is I am, I am 178 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,360 that I am. So you know, that would be one 179 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,840 reason why somebody could say, well, there you go. 180 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,720 There's a hint. But I think that may I, I think 181 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,280 that Tolkien was up to something a little different with that 182 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,720 episode and I'm happy to get into that. 183 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,760 But. But that's one reason why 184 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:29,160 someone I think plausibly could suggest this is a Lou Vitar or a 185 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:30,880 Roux, depending on what name you prefer. 186 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,120 OK, what are the other leading theories that you've 187 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,040 encountered? Well, it I think it you know, a 188 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:43,520 Valar Amaya, one of the one of the primordial kind of spirits 189 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,040 of that was instrumental in creation. 190 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,720 If you're familiar with the story recorded in the summer 191 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,400 early to the creation of Arda or Middle Earth. 192 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,240 So I I think that has a lot going for it. 193 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,920 But I do think we have reason to believe or reasons to believe 194 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,520 that he knows the song or at least is familiar with the tune 195 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,600 was the means by which the world was created. 196 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,400 So I don't know if if people in our audience are familiar with 197 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,000 that that creation story. But in the very opening scene of 198 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,880 the Sumarillian, we have the creation of the world, and in 199 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,920 that scene, a Louvitar, which is the one, or Aru, it's another 200 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,320 name. He creates what really, you 201 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,840 know, is the angelic host. They're the offspring of his 202 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,560 thought, and they sing before him. 203 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:39,320 There's this marvelous description of how these angelic 204 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:44,960 beings, the Valor, come to sing harmoniously in in concert with 205 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,480 one another. And they sing before Aru. 206 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:50,800 And he's pleased with that, with their singing. 207 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,040 And then they sing a mighty song. 208 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,080 And in the midst of that song, one of the valor, the mightiest 209 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,480 of the the valor, of course it would be him. 210 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:03,560 Melkor introduces dissonance into the into the tune. 211 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,760 And then that leads to cacophony and the series of of movements 212 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,800 in the, in the total musical unfolding of this great concert 213 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,680 of music. And then Aru, after they're done 214 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:21,040 singing, tells them why. He says to them, behold, this is 215 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,400 what you have sung. And they have they see in the 216 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,680 distance Arda, Middle Earth has come into being through their 217 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:30,840 song. So they they've actually told 218 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,680 the entire story. So it's also a providential 219 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,160 sequence. Everything that occurs in the 220 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:43,080 song will be, you know, sort of manifested or imaged forth in 221 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,960 that world. And then some of the valor enter 222 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,440 that world and they are the valor who are in the uttermost 223 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,320 West in the in the course of the story. 224 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:58,800 And I'd have to tell the whole story, I guess that to kind of 225 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,280 fully, you know, do justice to what's going on. 226 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,800 But but that's, that's the beginning. 227 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:08,240 And one of the things I, I have suspected is that the reason why 228 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,520 Bombadil's singing is so powerful is that he recalls the 229 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,200 nature of things. He, he calls back to memory what 230 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,160 things were meant to be and what they were made for. 231 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,640 So even in that little sequence that you describe the 232 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,480 deliverance of the hobbits from, from Old Man Willow, it's worth 233 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,440 noting that Bombadil tells the tree to behave like a tree 234 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,720 again. So the tree was behaving very 235 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,520 unnaturally. You know, trees weren't meant to 236 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:38,880 eat hobbits, right? So, so it's departed from its 237 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,640 nature and he's calling it back to its nature, you know, you 238 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,640 know, dig deep, drink water, you know, go, go to sleep, behave 239 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,640 like a tree, you know, go back to your tree Ness. 240 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:56,760 And so I, I think that's, that's an indicator that perhaps Tom 241 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,200 was there when the song was originally sung. 242 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,120 I don't know. It's, it's a, it's just a, it's 243 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,760 a, it's a theory that I, that I, you know, present for 244 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,240 consideration all. Right. 245 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,280 And, and yeah, for those of you who don't, aren't familiar with 246 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:16,440 the Silmarillion or maybe haven't even read the books, and 247 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,200 this is, this is your, your first foray to get past the, the 248 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,560 movies into the books. This the, the, the, my art line 249 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,480 of thinking kind of puts him in the same category as as Gandalf 250 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,480 and Zara men. And so you know, above men, but 251 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,880 not crazy far above men compared to some of the other options in 252 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,960 the Silmarillion. Right. 253 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,120 And the mire would have been there at the singing. 254 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,440 So they, they were there, you know, they're of the same nature 255 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,640 as the Valor, but lesser in stature, you could say. 256 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:54,520 So I, I, I don't want to spend too much time on the origins of 257 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,560 Middle Earth peace, but one thing that I think is, is 258 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:04,000 interesting to me is that the, the, the beginning is first of 259 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,520 all, love. That's with both Lewis and 260 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,680 Tolkien's mythology that the universe is sung into existence. 261 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:15,040 But the, the song there, the way that the, the others are called 262 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,480 into the song. And then dissonance, sin, if you 263 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,080 will, is introduced into the song. 264 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,000 And he's even, he's even able to make that into a meta narrative 265 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,600 and resolve it and how even your, even your dissonance can't 266 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,040 ruin my song. It's gorgeous, but it's also 267 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,960 very participatory. It's very right. 268 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,600 Yeah, it's it's they're being called into the song, whereas 269 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,520 Tom's singing. One of the one of the arguments 270 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,520 that seems to me against that is that Tom's singing is very self 271 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,000 expressive. It's not he's this is, this is 272 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,040 me. This is who I am. 273 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,240 I am being who I am. He's not inviting other people 274 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,720 to sing with them. Yeah, I think that's a 275 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,720 fairpoint. My my thought is with respect to 276 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,280 his musicality and even just kind of the lyrical quality of 277 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,520 his speech, even when he's not singing, there's a kind of 278 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,760 melodic feel to it that there's some sense in which the original 279 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:12,760 song is being somehow bodied forth by Tom, you know, maybe in 280 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,760 the Tom Bombadil key. But, and I think I think the 281 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,840 same is true for Goldberry. There's a kind of harmony that 282 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,600 you see in terms of the relationship, even in the 283 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,520 physical Dement aspects of it, the way they move and how they 284 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,120 respond to each other's movements and so forth. 285 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:36,240 And so I think that the, the underlying, I guess theme is 286 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:42,600 harmony and that there is a kind of mutuality and harmonic 287 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,520 interaction between Goldberry and Tom. 288 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,080 And I think that that is something you see in the very 289 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,760 origins of the of the, you know, of Middle Earth in, in in the 290 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,120 first section of summer early. We'll talk about that a lot more 291 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,440 as we get further into your book in a couple weeks. 292 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:07,000 But it's it's worth drawing attention to that early. 293 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,400 The I, I think you do such a beautiful job in the book 294 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,920 drawing attention to this. There's so much about modernity 295 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,720 that that conditions us to to view difference with suspicion 296 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:24,960 that can that hierarchy with suspicion and get get real 297 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,400 defensive about certain kinds of things because, oh, I, I know 298 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,040 where that's going and I'm not going to like it. 299 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,520 But Tolkien just seems Tolkien just seems fearless in 300 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,960 portraying this picture of yeah, this complimentary hierarchy and 301 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,200 difference. And these are not, these are not 302 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,720 Goldberry and Tom are not the same. 303 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,080 And they each have these beautiful, beautiful strengths 304 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,160 and powers. And this it's this seamless 305 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,040 dance among them. Like, like you said just at the 306 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,080 beginning. Any any speculations as to why 307 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,520 that was such an important thing to Tolkien to put in this sort 308 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,680 of this this part of the book that is kind of an aside from 309 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,800 the journey? Yeah, I, yeah, I, I think for 310 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,600 one thing, Tolkien was a remarkably well educated person 311 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,880 and he's able to, like Lewis, like many great thinkers and, 312 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,120 and writers and scholars who are acquainted with the breadth and 313 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,240 depth of the Western tradition, is able to do a lot of stuff 314 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,440 simultaneously in ways that, you know, regular people just don't, 315 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,160 don't, don't have, you know, an ability to appreciate. 316 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,760 But I think that there's so many things going on for, for 317 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,000 example, knowing that he was a philologist and that, you know, 318 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,680 even his in his own words, he started with the languages and 319 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,960 then wrote the story after that, which just gets everything 320 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,880 backwards from the perspective of a modern thinker. 321 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,240 But if you understand the relationship between language 322 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:04,520 and and reality with a capital R, then you know, you see that, 323 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,640 for example, in the opening sentences of John's Gospel, in 324 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,400 the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the 325 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,800 Word was God. There's a lot going on there 326 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,960 ontologically or metaphysically that I think just it goes right 327 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,720 past most people. But someone like Tolkien is 328 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,920 attuned to this stuff and is thinking and, and there are very 329 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,240 subtle ways that I think he's addressing modernity and its 330 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,200 shortcomings throughout The Lord of the Rings. 331 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,840 But in in this particular part of the book, I'm going to give 332 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,520 away my my thesis here. I think Tom and Goldberry are 333 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,640 the happy ending. They they personify the happy 334 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,240 ending. So here's a here's a typical 335 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,720 kind of contemporary take on on heaven. 336 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,120 It's going to be really dull. I mean, there were going to be, 337 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,680 you know, how long can you sing? You know, this, this, this idea 338 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,040 that, you know, that's right, this idea that, you know, 339 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,120 there's just nothing to do. But when when you when you take 340 00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:07,800 a look at Tom, he's the oldest creature in Middle Earth and 341 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,840 he's perennially delighted with everything that he encounters. 342 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,520 He's appalled at certain points, but at at but in a way that's 343 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,480 not undone. You know, even when he's with 344 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,360 the barrel white, there's no, there's no. 345 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,160 Sense of anxiety or fear that he might not be able to pull off 346 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,720 the deliverance of the hobbits. It's just like, OK, now it's 347 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,200 just time to throw this Barrow white into the outer darkness. 348 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,960 That's right. And then then then you can just 349 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,760 stay here The the the trailing, you know, cry of this Barrow 350 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,960 white is it and then it just like a door shuts and it's gone. 351 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,760 So is it this this this guy Tom is incredibly powerful. 352 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:56,000 Never at a loss for what to do, but always interested in, you 353 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,760 know, for example, he's interested in the hobbits. 354 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,400 He he actually wants to commune with them. 355 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,280 He delivers them and then doesn't say, oh, I'm got a few 356 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,600 other things that I need to be doing. 357 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,240 I hope you make it out OK. And we actually gives him an 358 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,000 indication that he's been expecting them. 359 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,800 You know that there's like, you know, tables ready, Goldberry's 360 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,800 waiting. I just happened to be going down 361 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,120 this path at this time, knowing that you'd be caught by the 362 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:27,440 tree. He doesn't say that, but but 363 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,400 then he delivers them and he goes ahead of them and they 364 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,440 trudge along and catch up and then, you know, have this 365 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,440 delightful stay. But then throughout the course 366 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,040 of the story, he pops up at different points and and at very 367 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:42,760 interesting points. For example, at the very end 368 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,560 when Gandalf tells the hobbits that they've got an important 369 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,560 task to accomplish in Hobbiton by the, you know, getting 370 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,240 sorrowmen and his lackeys out of the Shire. 371 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,720 And they asked him, you know, aren't you going to come with 372 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,400 us? He says, no, I'm, I'm done, I'm 373 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,200 retired. And then he says, I'm going to 374 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,920 go and have a long talk with Bob Adel. 375 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,680 So it's as though he's in effect saying what I'm looking forward 376 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,680 to is what Bombadil's been enjoying for a long, long time. 377 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,040 And you know, my, my work is done. 378 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,880 And now it's time for rest. And I think that that's what we 379 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,800 see with time. We, we have a picture of kind of 380 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,240 the blessed state of the, of the redeemed, where you could say 381 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:28,200 the the Saints or, or just, you know, the holy ones or. 382 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,720 What does that picture tell us about how we get rest wrong? 383 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,440 Yeah, that's great. That's a great way to put it, 384 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,960 being Reformed. I'm a Presbyterian. 385 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,200 We'd like, we like to put the emphasis on stop, but you know, 386 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,760 stop. And then we say worship. 387 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,320 And then what we mean by worship is reading the Bible, singing 388 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,080 with people in church, those sorts of things. 389 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,640 But I think that there's a, a richer, fuller way of thinking 390 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,080 about it. One of the ways to think about 391 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:04,960 the rest of the of the Father in creation is that on the 7th day 392 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,920 he sits on his throne and governs the world that he is. 393 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,920 He's brought into being and we're told in scripture that we 394 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,960 will reign with him, that will judge angels, that there are 395 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,920 things that we'll be doing that have to do with rule and 396 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,440 governance. I know it's really hard for us 397 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,840 to imagine these things. We have a hard time agreeing on 398 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,240 on what to color to paint the bathroom at church, you know, 399 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,160 and here we're going to be given these remarkable 400 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,520 responsibilities. But that's what we're promised. 401 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,320 That's what we're told. So I'd I think that that that 402 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,640 dominion and rest come together in ways that I think are, I 403 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,920 guess I'm familiar to us, but I think we see those things. 404 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,560 And Tom, you know, there's that then in that conversation that 405 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,800 Frodo has with Goldberry, after Frodo asks, you know, you know, 406 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,800 what is Tom or who is Tom? And she tells him he is, She 407 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,880 goes on to explain that he's the master. 408 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,880 And Frodo's response is the response most of us would have. 409 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,160 And that is, do you mean this land belongs to him, this 410 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,040 strange, crazy place? And she's puzzled at his 411 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,000 response. And she says, of course not. 412 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,280 Her response is no, each of the things in the forest that belong 413 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,200 to themselves, the trees belong to themselves. 414 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,520 You know, everything belongs to themselves. 415 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,920 But Thomas the master, as if that's answers the question. 416 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,680 But this gets us back to that non competitive harmonic 417 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,520 hierarchy that, you know, you've mentioned in the opening. 418 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,960 And I and I do think that there's something that happened 419 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,720 in, you know, the 13th, 14th centuries that really messed all 420 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,200 that up. And we can dive do a deep dive 421 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,040 on that. But I do believe that Tolkien as 422 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,440 well as Lewis were, as, you know, as Lewis said of himself, 423 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,000 I'm a dinosaur. And I'm, I'm like, you know, if 424 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,800 you, you want to study the past this look at me and ask me some 425 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,640 questions. I, I, I don't think like you do. 426 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,440 I think very differently. And I think that Tolkien was cut 427 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,360 from the same cloth, and he's doing things that would make 428 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:23,160 sense to a person whose outlook has been thoroughly formed by 429 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,760 the Christian faith. The world that we live in is in, 430 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,280 just to large measure, a revolt against that, all of that. 431 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:40,880 And we can I think it's fairly common to hear people blame some 432 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,760 chapter or other of the progressive movement over the 433 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,880 last 120 years. The to blame the Reformation, 434 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,120 you you mentioned the 13th and 14th century. 435 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:56,360 What's going on there? What you have is a really is a 436 00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:58,160 strange set of things that are going on. 437 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,520 What 1 is is the with the with the recovery of Aristotle in the 438 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,280 West, there's a a new set of questions that are being 439 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,480 entertained and addressed. But at the same time, as there's 440 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:17,080 been this recovery of Aristotle due to the interactions, 441 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,680 particularly in the Iberian Peninsula between the Moors and 442 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:28,120 Christians, there's also a response to this sort of way of 443 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:34,080 thinking that in flex is is brought into the West and is in 444 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:40,360 Christian world picked up on picked up by John Duns Scottis 445 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,200 and William of Occam's. So those two Franciscan fellows 446 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,960 have had a lot to do with the birth of the West as it's as we 447 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,080 think of it today. And I could go on to, you know, 448 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,880 basically the thinking that lies behind that. 449 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,440 But but I think that one of the things that comes out of that, 450 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,400 and it's an unintended consequence. 451 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,640 I don't think that either Scottish or or Arkham were 452 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,120 trying to do this, but you end up with a competitive way of 453 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:11,320 thinking about the relationship between God and human beings and 454 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,720 their freedoms. So you think about it this way, 455 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,640 like when we tend to think about listen, you and you brought this 456 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,880 up early in the in the episode where when we think about words 457 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:27,080 like hierarchy or difference, we think of reality as a kind of 458 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,000 pie and or pizza. And the more slices God gets, 459 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,640 the fewer there are for me or the more slices you get, Brian, 460 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,960 the fewer there are for me. There's this, this kind of 461 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:45,160 competitive relationship that we are in. 0 sum game. 462 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,920 Four, yes, 00 sum game. So the more free you are, the 463 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,920 less free I am, that kind of thing. 464 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,320 And what you had with the older view is a kind of layered 465 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,200 understanding of reality where each creature pursuing its 466 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,880 calling is free. And there's a, there's a 467 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,240 harmonious relationship between the various creatures and their 468 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,680 freedom actually enriches the other creatures. 469 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,680 So there's this, this richer understanding of the 470 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,920 relationship between, you know, God and man and, and men and men 471 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,200 and men and women and and so forth. 472 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,640 There's, there's not a, there's not a win lose kind of 0 sum 473 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,400 game that's being played. And you definitely see that with 474 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,080 Tom. So Tom is clearly the master. 475 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,200 I mean, he he goes around freeing hobbits from trees and 476 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,600 Barrow whites and he's clearly the most powerful creature 477 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,360 around. And there doesn't seem to be any 478 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,320 doubt that he he has the power that's not needed to to do with 479 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,720 what he wants to do. Nevertheless, he's not he's not 480 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,720 Saron or Saruman, you know, who dominate. 481 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,760 So I think there's a a really important distinction between 482 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,680 and this is another rule that I think Bombedell places. 483 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:10,320 He's a kind of a foil foil against which you can measure 484 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:15,720 and evaluate characters like Saruman or or Saran. 485 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,400 I hadn't thought about it from that that perspective, because 486 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,120 the at this point in the story, you don't know Gandalf all that 487 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,280 well. You know him pretty much the 488 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,080 same way that the hobbits know him, which is to say he's the 489 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,680 magic guy who does fireworks and periodically appears to save us. 490 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,320 And so your, your only picture of power dynamics thus far is 491 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,920 total strength and total weakness is the the helpless, 492 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,280 the relatively helpless hobbits. And then this image of this dark 493 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,320 threat looming in the East. And and then, yeah, we 494 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,520 introduced this character who, yeah, has this authority, but 495 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,120 it's not the same kind and it's not wielded the same way. 496 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:04,040 Yeah, and I, and I think kind of the, the really pregnant portion 497 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,360 of the story is when, you know, at the table, Bamba del Tom 498 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,720 tells Frodo to hand over the ring and Frodo does so without a 499 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,680 second thought or has any hesitation. 500 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,360 I mean, he didn't even do that with with Gandalf. 501 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,080 Maybe even when Gandalf said to him, you know, give me the ring 502 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,000 so he could throw it into the fire, there was this sense of 503 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,040 hesitancy that that is described in the, in the, in the 504 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,480 narrative. That's not the case there. 505 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,560 And then essentially Bombadil makes fun of the ring for the 506 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,640 next, you know, few paragraphs, you know, he's even making fun. 507 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,800 I think of Saron particularly. He puts the, the ring up to his 508 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,840 eye and looks through it. He's he's mocking the eye of 509 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,680 Saron. That's how I read it. 510 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,440 So he, he knows all about the ring. 511 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,000 He knows all about what's going on. 512 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,840 He makes the ring disappear, you know, he have to flicks it in 513 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,160 the air, remember, and it disappears. 514 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,640 And then he has, you know, it's just like your uncle playing 515 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,560 magic tricks at the table with you, you know, at, you know, at 516 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,160 Thanksgiving, you know, and having fun with you, having fun 517 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,920 with his nephews, you know, that kind of thing. 518 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,960 So he's he, he comes across kind of clownish in, in, in, in sort 519 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,160 of the, the early presentation. But by the time you're done with 520 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,640 and, and he's in the background, you, you get the indication then 521 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,840 that he could take on Saron. He's got what it would take to 522 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:21,360 do that. Why? 523 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,800 Do you think he is introduced in such a clownish way, given given 524 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,040 that fact? I mean, you get it's such a 525 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,840 primary colors sort of picture in a, in a story that's so full 526 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,400 of Gray up to this point. Yeah, it's just so primary 527 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,280 colors. And don't crush the water lilies 528 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,520 in the singing. He's he's begging you not to 529 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,440 take him seriously right before he bosses a Willow tree around. 530 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,920 Yeah, and and we're told that that Willow tree dominated the 531 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,360 forest in the way the Saran and Saruman dominated their domains. 532 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,840 But then Tom steps in and puts them in his place. 533 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,960 Yeah, I, I the the fact that the primary colors are present, 534 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,160 yellow boots, blue jacket, red cheeks, you know, that's fun. 535 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,880 And I think that there's AI think that actually speaks to 536 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,120 what you're getting at with this. 537 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,560 So with, you know, it's sort of the larger, I guess narrative 538 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,200 arc when it comes to the whole story of Middle Earth is a kind 539 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,800 of graying. Things are getting grayer and 540 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:27,400 grayer as time goes along. And you know, there are certain 541 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,360 places in Middle Earth where something of the past has been 542 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,720 preserved and you actually feel like you've entered into an 543 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,440 earlier phase of things like Loft Lorraine or Rivendell. 544 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,200 And what we learned by the end is that that's actually the case 545 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,080 because, you know, Elrod, Elrod and, and Galadriel, they both 546 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,480 had rings, the rings, the three of the three Elvin Lords, they 547 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,320 had two of them. So by the way, the third was 548 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,920 Gandalf. Gandalf had one. 549 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,320 And so you don't get that until the very end, kind of like, like 550 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,920 a big reveal at the end. But I, I think that the point is 551 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,320 that there's something about Tom that is primary, you know, that 552 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:13,840 is that sort of fundamental sort of basis for all color, you 553 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,200 know. Yeah, OK. 554 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,120 I have so many questions. You kind of think about you, 555 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:19,840 yeah. You kind of think about like, 556 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,720 you know, like a Wizard of Oz, you know where the, the, the, 557 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,520 the film starts off, You know, the, the film version starts off 558 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,760 in black and white and then they end up in Oz and everything's a 559 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,240 Technicolor. Right. 560 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,160 Oh, and Anita makes a good distinction. 561 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,320 Merriment, not clownishness. Yeah, I think that's right. 562 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,960 Yeah, as a side note, we'll, we'll probably send this out 563 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:43,160 over the the substance guys, but the Theopolis Institute ran a 564 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,920 great blog post a day or two ago on merriment. 565 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,960 That's absolutely beautiful. Lots of Tolkien in it. 566 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,520 Oh, nice. Great. 567 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:50,440 So. OK. 568 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,960 There's a bunch of places I could go and there's a bunch of 569 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,120 good questions that have come in in the last couple of minutes. 570 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,240 Before we drop the the merriment, couple things on 571 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,280 that. First, he when he sends the 572 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:09,159 hobbits off, he he teaches them a song to sing if they need to 573 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:11,840 call him again, which a shows that he kind of knows they're 574 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,400 going to need to, but B why? But why does he teach them to 575 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,840 sing as opposed to just call me, which is what they did before? 576 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,960 Yeah, that's a great. That's a great question. 577 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,600 I don't have a any real, you know, insightful thing to say 578 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,400 concerning that, apart from the fact that Tom likes singing and, 579 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,840 you know, that's his mode and he wants them to sing. 580 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,199 Now when they start singing, you know, in, in that tomb. 581 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,960 So that's what they're what they're in. 582 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,280 There's this sense in which they they can hear a response or it's 583 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,880 just Frodo, right, You know, it's right. 584 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,840 It's Frodo's the only one who sings, but there is a response 585 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,080 almost immediately. And it's as though the sound of 586 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,880 Bombadil travels through the through the actual ground to, to 587 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:03,400 them in that barrel. And I actually think that that 588 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,720 that barrel white sequence is a kind of inspired by the, the 589 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,680 resurrection kind of it that generally understood. 590 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,240 So like, you know, the, the, the, the face or the the door, 591 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:21,440 the opening to the tomb itself faces E We're told that because 592 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,160 as the sun is coming out, we see Tom's head pop in and the sun is 593 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,600 rising behind his head. So that's pretty significant. 594 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,400 And they're in a tomb after all, and they're as good as dead. 595 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:37,080 And then you have what you could be, you could say a kind of a 596 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,160 kind of a foreshadowing at the final judgement with the barrel 597 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,560 white being cast out and the Hobbit's being redeemed. 598 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,400 And then they run naked on the grass. 599 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,960 It's just this marvelous scene of Deliverance A. 600 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:56,280 Little while ago, Lindsay asked in the chat the the master 601 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,400 versus owner distinction. What do you think the his his 602 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,880 lack of fear has to do with that? 603 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,360 Do you think that's that's a key distinction between master and 604 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,320 owner? Yeah, we're told repeatedly that 605 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,000 Tom has never been caught. And you're like, what is that 606 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,960 supposed to mean? One of the things you could say 607 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,040 about temptation is that it is a trap. 608 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,600 It's something that is intended to catch you. 609 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,600 So it's you're lured into something, right? 610 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,680 You're a promise is made to you that's false. 611 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,280 And you you step into the trap and you're caught at that point. 612 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:43,480 There's something about Tom in his behavior that is masterful 613 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,800 in the sense that he isn't trapped, he isn't taken 614 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,400 advantage of by any other creature. 615 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,040 Now, if you think about it like that, this The Adventures of Tom 616 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:58,160 Bombadil, the poem which actually predated, as I noted 617 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,960 earlier, The Hobbit, it was published, I think it in one of 618 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,760 the papers that was published at Oxford. 619 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,160 Yeah, as a as a side note, sorry for those of you that haven't 620 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,920 read that, which is probably most of you. 621 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,800 Like I got that in in this book, Tales from the Perilous Realm, 622 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,080 which is a collection of Tolkien's shorter things. 623 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,040 It also includes Roverandam, Farmer Giles of Hams, Mitchell 624 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,320 Smith of Wutan Major leaf by a niggle, like a whole bunch of 625 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,480 Tolkien's just absolutely gorgeous short stories along 626 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,960 with this extended adventures of Tom Bombadil. 627 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,440 So like that's that's worth the purchase by itself for for any 628 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,000 one of those things in it, let alone all of them together. 629 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,160 But sorry, keep going. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, no, yeah. 630 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,800 Those are great stories. My favorite is Smith is Smith 631 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,360 with the major. That's that's a great. 632 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,200 We did an event a couple of years ago entirely built around 633 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,080 that story. Oh, neat. 634 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:50,400 Oh, that's great. So beautiful. 635 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,200 Yeah, it's it's super. But in in the the poem and the 636 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,240 adventures of Tom Bomber, each of the creatures in the forest, 637 00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:59,360 including Goldberry, tries to trap Tom. 638 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,400 And there's this marvelous episode with with Goldberry 639 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:09,840 where Tom is looking into the Withy Wendell and she she's 640 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,920 under the water and she reaches up and grabs his beard and pulls 641 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,840 him in. It's a very flirtatious move. 642 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,960 I mean, it's, it's the sort of thing that, you know, is easy to 643 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,080 interpret as this gal really likes this guy and is trying to 644 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,200 send the message. And so she steals his hat and 645 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,440 she swims down under the, you know, deep into the into the, 646 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,320 into the water. And she's at the door of her 647 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,760 mother's house, you know, the the river woman. 648 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,640 And Tom gets his hat back in and says to her, I'm not going to 649 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,400 come and live with you, implying that there's some place else to 650 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,200 live. And at the, at the very end, he 651 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,480 catches her. But you get the, you get the, 652 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,400 the, the, the sense that she wanted to be caught. 653 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,200 Yes. She's sitting out on the side of 654 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,680 the, of the, of the, the, the river, combing her long golden 655 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,680 hair, essentially waiting for time to come by. 656 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,640 That's my read, but it's not a it's not a stretch. 657 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,920 It's this is very, this is a, a very fun, romantic, kind of 658 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,680 amusing set of encounters between the two of them. 659 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,400 But you could say at that point he's finally caught, but you 660 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,760 could also say that he caught her. 661 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,320 And in this, in my book, I get into some legends of some 662 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,960 folklore from Finland that I think I, I, I suspect actually 663 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,320 inspired Tolkien and, and, and the creation of the character 664 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,240 Goldberry. But, but he, there's the badger 665 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:42,320 that tries to catch him. Willow tries to catch him, the 666 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,080 Barrow White tries to catch him, Goldberry tries to catch him. 667 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,480 And each time they can't. And that's kind of the way the 668 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,720 story unfolds. And then finally he catches 669 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,640 Goldberry and they live happily ever after. 670 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,560 They get married. But I, I think that that that 671 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,840 idea that there's, we live in a world full of traps. 672 00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:07,400 And that we and then Thomas successfully eluded the traps, 673 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:14,840 you and I, as descendants of our original parents, they were 674 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,840 caught. And we've all been dealing with 675 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,080 the with that ever since. I've often thought, you know, if 676 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,680 I was there that day, I would have whispered into Eve's ear. 677 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,280 Ask him what it's what's in it for him. 678 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,480 If you eat from the tree, because obviously that's what it 679 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,520 was all about. You know, he there was something 680 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:40,480 that the serpent was after and and he just seduced her 681 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,240 spiritually into to taking the fruit. 682 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,800 But that that's that's the sort of thing that Tom succeeds in 683 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,880 eluding. So there's something about that. 684 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,560 I think that says something about our even human beings made 685 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,000 the image of God our natural, our original state. 686 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,200 I I also think that time is a picture of what what could have 687 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,160 been the case. This is a counterfactual, but 688 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,480 could have been the case. If we hadn't fallen, we would 689 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,360 all be a lot more like Tom and Goldberry. 690 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,800 Another, another random question I had not related to that, but 691 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:14,760 will those come up a lot these kinds of stories, Tolkien uses 692 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,920 them in both uses Old Man Willow twice in the the original poem 693 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,200 and then in the Lord of the Rings itself. 694 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,000 Somebody in the chat pointed out that in Harry Potter and the 695 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,000 Chamber of Secrets, though, there's the Whomping Willow 696 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,280 that's also very destructive. What is it about Willows in 697 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,960 these these stories where they're, they're consistently 698 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,960 cast as the in these villain kind of roles? 699 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,800 I don't, I don't know. Do you have any guesses on that? 700 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,160 I guess maybe aesthetically there's something about him 701 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,920 that's a little weird. When I was in college, I played 702 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,760 varsity. I played soccer for my college 703 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:53,160 team, for my college, and the entire soccer field was 704 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,080 surrounded by Willow trees. It was the weirdest thing, you 705 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,040 know, just dozens of them and you would go under the trees. 706 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,000 I don't know, you know the term, the name weeping Willow. 707 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,240 You understand when you're sitting under your Willow tree, 708 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,920 where the term comes from, the SAP just literally drips from 709 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,800 those long vines down on to the ground. 710 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,000 And if you're under there, you get a bath, whether you're 711 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,600 looking for one or not, but kind of a sticky bath because it's 712 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,920 tree SAP. But, but maybe that's something 713 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,280 to do with it. I they're just an unusual tree. 714 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,600 They're just kind of kind of strange in in those ways. 715 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,840 I don't have anything more significant to offer than that. 716 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,480 No, I might, I might turn my wife loose on that one. 717 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,640 She's she's a gardener. We actually have a dappled 718 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,400 Willow in our front yard that she planted recently, which does 719 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,480 not behave the way a weeping Willow does, interestingly 720 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,520 enough. But there's there's always a 721 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,120 reason with with with that the. Symbolism of the. 722 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,960 Created order. There's always something when 723 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,640 you dig into those old fairy stories. 724 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,760 Well, there might be something with the name too that I just 725 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,840 didn't look into that that you know, Tolkien would have known 726 00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,200 right the the words that informed the the name Willow 727 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,280 tree. Nicole says they grow really 728 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,360 quickly and steal water from all the other plants. 729 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,440 That's interesting. Oh, there you go. 730 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,120 That's an interesting. That's, I didn't know that this 731 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,280 is they're thieves, Yeah. He knows nature inside and out. 732 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,520 Yeah, yeah. And we'll get into that more as 733 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,360 the, the conversations go on, because Christopher did a great 734 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,720 job touching on all of this as he delves more into the, the, 735 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,240 the characters and the, well, the interplay with them in the 736 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,080 story. I've a couple more questions, 737 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,560 but it's worth mentioning as an aside that whether you live in 738 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,240 Colorado Springs and are locally a part of the Anselm Society or 739 00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:47,200 whether this podcast is kind of your your connection with us. 740 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,360 We're doing a lot not just with these four weeks, but but 741 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:58,840 building on Converse topics from Bombedell over the next six 742 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,560 months or so. Next month, we're going to talk 743 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,840 more about what rest really looks like, what stillness 744 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,360 really looks like. What's what's the difference 745 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,960 between just holding still and and true rest and what does 746 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,000 Sabbath have to do with that? We're going to talk about the 747 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,920 Pride and Chronicles in that context. 748 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:18,440 We've already recorded an episode on pipe smoking with 749 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,240 Malcolm Gite that will. Air Oh, Malcolm Gate. 750 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,560 So yeah, we just, we spent an hour and a half just smoking 751 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:26,560 pipes and talking about how. How? 752 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:32,920 Habits like that training us to be still and but then as as we 753 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,040 turn from summer towards fall, we're going to get more into 754 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:41,680 feasting and joviality. And one of the, one of the 755 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,760 pinnacle points of, of that will be you guys mark this on your 756 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,960 calendar, September 20th weekend. 757 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,240 We're going to have a whole weekend of workshops and singing 758 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:56,200 and culminating in, I don't know if we're going to call it this 759 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,320 or not, but basically the great Middle Earth Feast. 760 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,360 Doing. Doing the sorts of, you know, 761 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,440 crazy things that weird people like us do when we get together, 762 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,000 singing at the top of our lungs and telling old stories and 763 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:14,760 eating really, really good food. So, so think of today as as a 764 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,560 kick off to an extended collective meditation on what 765 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:27,360 does it look like to really be a part of the will of God in this 766 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:32,440 this place of this posture of rest, but this leaning in 767 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,040 towards his will and participating in his will. 768 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,720 There's a lot to be done with it and it's way bigger than one 769 00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:42,640 character or, or one of these little topics. 770 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:47,640 So but this this book was just such a great way to to kick off 771 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,120 so much of it. And it's well, it's created an 772 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,720 excuse for me to cause all kinds of trouble. 773 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:54,880 Let's just leave it at that for now. 774 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,640 Chris, one thing that that strikes me about Bombadil is, 775 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,640 you know, there are those passages in Scripture that are 776 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,480 just so weird that most people just instinctively push past 777 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,160 them. You know, whether it's the 778 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,640 whatever, whatever it is that strikes you as odd. 779 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,040 You know, I could be, maybe I was, I was raised Baptist and 780 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,160 was taught that all alcohol is a sin. 781 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,880 And so I missed the 70 verses that say otherwise. 782 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:24,120 Or it's the OR, or it's the, oh, that's a really, really odd 783 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,720 story. Why is that in the Bible? 784 00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:27,960 Moving on. There's just something about the 785 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:29,800 discomfort that makes us push past it. 786 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,440 I've heard more than one theologian say no, no, no. 787 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:34,760 You should have the opposite instinct. 788 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,240 If something strikes you as that weird, that's your signal to pay 789 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:40,640 very close attention, because it probably means something very 790 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:41,280 important. Do you? 791 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,040 Do you? Do you see something simple? 792 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,560 Similar with Bombadil? He's just so weird. 793 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,840 You want to push past him to the next part of the story, but 794 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,840 there's so much going on. No, yeah, I think that that 795 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,360 comparison is really a good one. Sometimes people like to compare 796 00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,280 Bombadil to Melchizedek, just this weird figure that pops up 797 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,560 and, and you know, the biblical narrative and then you discover 798 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,880 while he's really, really important, but it's just this 799 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,840 very brief episode. You don't know where the guy is 800 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:15,440 from or you know, you know how to interpret, you know, who and 801 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,880 what he's up to, who is what he's up to. 802 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:24,040 But I think that's, that's true. And I, so I, I tried to read the 803 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,320 Lord of the Rings with Bombadil in, in mind. 804 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,960 And as I did that, I, I found, as I noted earlier, these 805 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,400 allusions to Bombadil at, at significant points. 806 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,600 Let me just give you one another example. 807 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,840 So Frodo, when he's in Bombadil's house, he's sleeping. 808 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,160 He has a, has a series of dreams. 809 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,000 He dreams about Gandalf, of course, but he also has a dream 810 00:47:50,480 --> 00:48:00,000 about a ship and being on the sea and a swift sunrise and rain 811 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,240 being kind of pulled back like a curtain. 812 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,080 And there's a land in the distance. 813 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,200 And then he wakes up. And then at the very end of The 814 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,880 Lord of the Rings, that's what we actually see happen. 815 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,320 And Frodo's on a ship and he's sailing into the innermost West. 816 00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:22,120 And there's a reference to the dream at that very moment in the 817 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,120 in the story and you realize, OK, there's something about 818 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,320 Bommadil that connects to the end. 819 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:30,560 That was the connection that I made. 820 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,840 There's something about Bommadil that in some sense is a pre 821 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,280 sages or a dumb braids. The, the end of the, not just 822 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,440 the story, you know, the Lord of the Rings, but I think in a 823 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:45,000 larger sense, the story of, of, you know, the world, our world. 824 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,320 There's something that we are looking forward to and we've 825 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,520 already talked a little bit about it. 826 00:48:53,080 --> 00:49:00,320 We're looking forward to rest understood in ways that maybe we 827 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,240 have a hard time appreciating today. 828 00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:05,400 Guys, we're going to wrap up in a, a couple minutes, so if 829 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:10,200 you've got any more questions, pop them in the chat and I'll 830 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:18,040 I'll throw them in one, one good one is this one here. 831 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,600 How did Tom inform your views on the productive household? 832 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:23,440 Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. 833 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,120 I I think that the thing that I came away with when I was 834 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,480 thinking about Tom and the productive household cause I've 835 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,200 I've known for that theme and other books I've written is his 836 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,400 disposition to obviously that, you know, the hobbits. 837 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,440 He's a marvelous host. So that there's a, a strong 838 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,520 emphasis on hospitality just in then in that part of the story. 839 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:54,000 But I I also think that there's a lot said with regard to his 840 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,640 relationship with his wife as well. 841 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,880 There's this marvelous harmony between the two of them and then 842 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,760 his relationship to the larger world that surrounds the house. 843 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:08,280 So he's, he's between the forest and the tombs, which I think was 844 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,840 an interesting place to set up a, a house. 845 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,840 And in other words, you got, you got the perilous land on one 846 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,640 side and you've got death on the other. 847 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,960 And really that's a picture of the Christian household. 848 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,440 We're in a perilous place between, between this the, the 849 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:30,160 world that is filled with dangers and the tombs that await 850 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,760 us. And we're here making the best 851 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,160 of things, putting things in order, enjoying the good, the 852 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,520 good things of the, you know, the good fruits of the earth, 853 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,480 cultivating our gardens. Tom wasn't a hippie. 854 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,280 I mean, he kept a well manicured yard. 855 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,280 You know, there's this description that even the forest 856 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,400 itself seemed like it have been trimmed like a hedge. 857 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,320 There was a sense of it that there was this bound, this 858 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,200 boundary between, you know, his, his domain and the things that 859 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:05,680 were around it. And he exercised authority not 860 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:10,160 just inside, but beyond outside, as I already noted, in the 861 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,040 forest and also in the tombs. So I, I do think when it comes 862 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,800 to deductive household, that's the emphasis is so much on 863 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:21,440 productivity as it is on rest and delight. 864 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,520 And kind of our what might seem paradoxical situation that we 865 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,280 find ourselves in a little bit of heaven on earth in our 866 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,880 households, but it's that our households are situated in some 867 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,400 dangerous territory. Absolutely. 868 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:46,160 Last question about the book is, as we go into reading through 869 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,320 the rest of your book and discussing it together, do you 870 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,000 have any particular thoughts you want to leave us with? 871 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,760 I, I think there's mostly we're just going to follow what the 872 00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,280 book does and what the book covers. 873 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,480 But I think there, there are so many takeaways about the 874 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:07,000 Christian language and there are so many takeaways about our own 875 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,160 understandings of how, how do we as the imago Dei pursue rightly 876 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,160 understood dominion, mastery, vocation. 877 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:20,720 What would your advice to us be as we tackle some of those big 878 00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:22,920 scary words, some of those things we might have a lot of 879 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,680 preconceptions about and and and dive in? 880 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,880 Well, I think you've set it up really well. 881 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,120 I, I think that, you know, your comment earlier about passages 882 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,880 of scripture that, you know, unnerve us being the very things 883 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,720 that can enrich us most. I think that's true. 884 00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:42,280 You, you know, with those words too. 885 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,240 I think that when we think about words like authority or 886 00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:49,000 dominion, I think that because we live in a fallen world, 887 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,560 necessarily those things are going to be expressed in fallen 888 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,240 ways. And, and because that's the 889 00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:58,320 case, you know, as the saying goes throughout the baby with 890 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,600 the bathwater and not have a sense of what was originally 891 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,160 intended and not have any sense of it or being know how to 892 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,800 identify it. I think that one of the things 893 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:12,840 that this particular character is really helpful for is helping 894 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,640 us to see things from a from an angle that I don't think we have 895 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:21,640 anything, you know, in our lived experience, except maybe maybe 896 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,760 family members we've known who if embodied these things. 897 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,520 You know these things well. But I think that when you see 898 00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:35,720 dominion exercised in the way God intends, it's a beautiful 899 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:38,680 thing. And it's the same thing is true 900 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,320 with authority. When you see it done right, you 901 00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,760 realize, wow, you know, this is great. 902 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,480 This is the way it should. This is the way it was intended 903 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,760 to be. This is the way it should be. 904 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:51,600 Yeah. And they're all sorts of people 905 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,640 who do don't do it well or, or twist it or distort it, distort 906 00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,880 these things. But they started off with 907 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,200 something good and distorted it. That's the thing to keep in 908 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,360 mind. And and, you know, story like 909 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,880 Lord of the Rings and in particular, you know, this, the 910 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,920 example of this character Bombedell, gives us a way to 911 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,760 look at those things and maybe see some things in those scary 912 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:17,680 words or scary doctrines that maybe we've missed up to this 913 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,000 point. All right, a couple last 914 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:23,800 quickies from the chat. What is 1 go to book or resource 915 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,400 that has shaped your understanding or practice of 916 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,880 REST? Oh wow. 917 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,440 Probably Leisure, The Basis of Culture by Joseph Peeper. 918 00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,840 Well timed, Sir. That's that is. 919 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,480 That is, that is. We're literally recording an 920 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,800 episode next week that'll air first thing in July. 921 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:43,680 It's mostly a discussion of that. 922 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:45,680 So. Oh, wow, Great. 923 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:46,400 Well, that's great. Well. 924 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:52,040 Timed We also have some desire in the chat for you to write a 925 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,720 sequel to The Purloined Boy anyway. 926 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:00,760 Yeah, I get that. Like every week. 927 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,200 I'm working on it. I'm working on it. 928 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,160 Is that so, you know, just just keep a few things in mind. 929 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,440 You know, the time that it took Tolkien to write The Lord of the 930 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:13,920 Rings? What was it, 14 years? 931 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:19,240 I've still got some time left. This is true. 932 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,240 This is true. All right. 933 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,440 First of all, thank you. Thank you again for your time 934 00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:27,600 and thank you for writing the book. 935 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,960 Yeah, well, you're welcome. It's a pleasure to write it, and 936 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,440 I'm glad you folks are studying it. 937 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:36,200 Well, we're, we'll probably have a question or two at the, the 938 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,360 end of four weeks that are still still hanging, hanging out 939 00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:40,640 there. And if if there are, I'll pass 940 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,880 them along. OK, great. 941 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:48,000 So everyone else, just a reminder that this is week one 942 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,920 of our four week exploration of not just the character Tom 943 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,040 Bombadil, but what his character and story can teach us about 944 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,120 vocation, calling and mastery. If you're not already signed up 945 00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:03,240 for the reading group, head over to anselmsociety.org/bombadil to 946 00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:05,560 sign up because this is the only part of it that will be on the 947 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,200 podcast. Imagination Redeemed Podcast is 948 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,000 a production of the Anselm Society. 949 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,160 It's easy to see this world as disenchanted and to give up hope 950 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,520 that there's more. But you were made to see the 951 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,440 world with the eyes of heaven and to live a bountiful life 952 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,240 that participates in the life of God. 953 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,800 Like in the great stories, the Anselm Society is a place where 954 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,200 you can come in and experience that beauty, joyful celebration, 955 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,360 and ancient wisdom and go out renewed, bringing that life to 956 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:35,800 your vocation, home, and church. Join us next time as we pursue a 957 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,400 renaissance of the Christian imagination together.