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00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,560
All the long days. 
Weariness is done, I'm free at 

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00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,880
last to do just as I will. 
Take up my pipe, admire the 

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00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,400
setting sun, practice the art of
simply sitting still. 

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00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,600
Thank God I have this briar bowl
to fill. 

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00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,640
I leave the world with all its 
hopeless hype, its pressures and

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00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:38,040
its ever ringing till and let it
go in smoke rings from my pipe. 

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00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,400
The hustle and the bustle. 
These I shun, The tasks that 

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00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,360
trouble and the cares that kill.
The false idea that there's a 

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00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,000
race to run. 
The pushing of that weary stone 

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00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,560
uphill. 
The wretched iPhones all 

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00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:03,520
insistent trill, whingers and 
whiners, each with their own 

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gripe. 
I pack them in tobacco leaves 

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00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,880
until they're blown away in 
smoke rings from my pipe. 

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And then, at last, my real work 
is begun. 

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00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:26,480
My chance to chant, to exercise 
the skill of summoning the muses

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00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,600
1 by 1 to meet me in their 
temple. 

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00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,320
Touch my quill. 
I have a pen, but quills are 

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better still. 
And when the soul is full, the 

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time is ripe. 
Kindle the fire of poetry that 

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will breathe and expand like 
smoke rings from my pipe. 

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00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,080
Prince, I've done with grinding 
at the mill. 

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These petty pelting tyrants 
aren't my type. 

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So lift me up and set me on a 
hill. 

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A free man blowing smoke rings 
from his pipe. 

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Welcome to the Imagination 
Redeemed podcast where we follow

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the great stories further up and
further in in pursuit of the 

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life of Christ. 
Beautiful Malcolm Guy, thank you

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for sharing that. 
I'm Brian Brown with Malcolm and

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00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,120
Matthew Clark. 
We are here to talk about smoke 

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00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,200
rings from our pipes. 
We have been spending the summer

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talking about different topics 
related to ordinary time and 

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entering into the work of God 
and the relationship between his

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work and ours. 
And we needed a moment of 

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stillness in the middle of that.
And so we thought we would go to

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someone who we hoped against 
hope might also need a moment of

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stillness in his busy life and 
busy projects. 

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And perhaps, gentlemen, it would
be best to start with a, a few 

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logistics. 
We're going to talk about 

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00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,240
stillness and the art of 
stillness and how pipe smoking 

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00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,160
is a case study in it. 
But I, I I feel we should also 

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00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,480
start by what we are smoking and
what we are smoking it in. 

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00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:32,040
Right, very good. 
So I'm, I'm smoking some Kendall

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black cherry, which is a dark 
Cavendish with a cherry flavour.

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Kendall is the place. 
I mean, obviously it's not grown

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00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:40,720
in England, but it's mixed in 
England. 

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00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,080
Kendall is this the little place
in the Lake District, which is 

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00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,800
right at the heart of the Lake 
District, where where Wordsworth

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00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,680
and Coleridge often gathered. 
Coleridge was a pipe smoker, not

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00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:58,800
Wordsworth, but he was often 
sort of dipping into ale houses 

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00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,080
and pot houses as they were 
called them, not in the American

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00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,480
sense of the word pot, but a pot
is a vessel from which you drank

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00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,480
And, and anyway, so I quite like
smoking a tobacco which has some

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00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,120
association with the Lake 
District. 

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00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,760
I'm a great fan of Peterson 
pipes. 

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00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,399
I have a variety of them. 
This is, I just took it out for 

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00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:22,000
special occasion. 
This is a quite unusual 

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00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,880
Peterson. 
There's a, there's a, a apart 

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00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,760
from Peterson's own shop on 
Grafton Street. 

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00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,400
There's another very old 
tobacconist on Grafton Street 

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00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,240
that's been there for a couple 
of 100 years. 

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00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:39,520
And they had their 150th 
anniversary and they 

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00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,040
commissioned Peterson to make a 
set of 150 pipes to 

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00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,000
commissioned. 
And this, if you can't really 

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00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,400
see it, but on the band, the 
band, the Silver Band has quite 

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00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,040
a nice sort of Celtic kind of 
inlay sort of effect on it. 

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00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,680
It's very, very faint there now.
Beautiful. 

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00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,840
So I happened to come across one
of these and I I pushed out the 

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00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:04,520
boat and bought it because I 
like pipes that have a bit of 

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00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,280
history and a story to tell. 
And it's quite unusual having 

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00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:09,080
the amber stem as well. 
That's quite nice. 

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00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,480
I feel that. 
When in fact, I don't know if it

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00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,280
was Pearl or amber somewhere 
point in the Lord of the Rings, 

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00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:19,440
the hobbits are given by Theoden
or somebody a really beautiful 

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00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,200
pair of pipes. 
And I think they have made by 

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00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,800
the elves or so I so I think 
this is the nearest I get to a 

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00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,280
kind of at least a quasi elven 
pipe. 

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00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:31,520
Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

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00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,680
Beautiful. 
All right, Top that, Clark. 

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00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:40,240
This is this is not a 
competition I don't want. 

80
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:45,200
To I should have got out of a 
ordinary one, but it's I don't 

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00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,280
smoke very often so it's 
actually quite nice. 

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00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,280
Well, this pipe is People have 
given me pipes over the year. 

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00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:57,520
I think I've smoked this pipe 
with you, Malcolm in at one of 

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00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,960
at the last Oxbridge maybe? 
Oh, great. 

85
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,240
Yeah. 
I love when you're given pipes. 

86
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,680
I've got. 
I mean, there has to be a whole.

87
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,520
Eventually, if you get to know 
him at all, there'll be a whole 

88
00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,080
section of your pipe rack called
Gifts from Jerry Root. 

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00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,400
Because Jerry Root, the great 
Lewis scholar, is such a such a 

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00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,400
good man, but he's a man of such
generous heart that it's, it's, 

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00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,080
I didn't know this when I first 
met him, that it's really 

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00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,200
dangerous to admire anything 
that he has, you know, I regard 

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00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:27,440
as a pipe. 
Oh, that's a beautiful pipe 

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00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,080
here. 
It feels he immediately gives 

95
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,160
away anything you admire. 
I have a couple of very fine 

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00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,480
pipes from Jerry. 
Well, I need to meet him. 

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00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:38,520
You definitely too. 
Yeah, we need to. 

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00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,520
Become friends. 
I've heard a lot about him, but 

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00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,640
this pipe, actually it was my 
first pipe and is my main pipe 

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00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,880
and it was my granddad's pipe, 
my granddad. 

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00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,160
That's really good. 
You have talked me now. 

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00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,000
That's great. 
It was my my mom I I never got 

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00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,200
to meet either one of my 
grandfathers. 

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00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:03,440
They both died before I was born
and I was going through my 

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00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,400
granddads kind of dressing room 
one time years ago. 

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00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,720
And I hadn't actually told 
anybody that I was smoking a 

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00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,880
pipe or looking for one to 
smoke. 

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00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,040
But I found this in a drawer and
I asked my grandmother if I 

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00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,240
could have it. 
She said, yeah, sure. 

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00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,280
So I don't know what it is. 
It's it says Royal Scott on the 

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00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,320
side. 
And I I asked my tobacconist 

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00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,240
friend John David Cole, who runs
the Country Squire, back. 

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00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,040
Oh, you put me in touch with the
country, Squire. 

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00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,520
That's right out there, yeah. 
And I but I don't know that he 

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00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:36,880
ever really got a good lead on 
it. 

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00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,360
But it's a, it's a just kind of 
a simple briar pipe. 

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00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,120
But I love it connects me to my.
I like having things that 

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00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,760
connect me to people and and not
having a. 

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00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,680
Nice long Shank of briar itself.
Hold it up again. 

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00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,040
That's quite a good thing. 
If you have that much briar 

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00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,880
before you get to the vulcanite 
stem, that shows you how big a 

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00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,040
block of briar they were carving
because that's not stuck on. 

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00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,840
That's all one piece. 
So that's not a luxury item to 

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00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,840
have that much briar on the 
stem. 

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00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,200
Really. 
Yeah. 

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00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,400
I didn't even know that. 
That's wonderful. 

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00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,160
That's encouraging. 
I love it. 

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00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:20,080
And the tobacco. 
So about 3 or 4 years ago it was

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my birthday and my brother Sam 
went down to the country Squire 

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00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,000
and he got a custom blend made 
for me. 

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00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,160
I live with my brother, I've 
lived with him for about 10 or 

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00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,560
11 years now and he's a very 
funny guy. 

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00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,640
And so he handed me this for my 
birthday. 

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00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,120
I don't know if you can see this
is my own personal pipe tobacco 

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00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:45,600
blend called Old Squirrel Butt. 
So I'm smoking the very last of 

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00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,960
Old Squirrel my my last batch of
Old Squirrel Butt today with you

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00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,240
guys. 
Hope you feel honored. 

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00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,080
I do, yeah. 
I wish. 

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00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,600
At some point, the technology of
the Internet will allow us to 

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00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,280
savor each other's tobacco. 
You know, they'll be on Zoom. 

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00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,520
There'll be a share fumes 
button. 

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00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:12,760
Don't you just wish? 
Well, I I dearly hope not, 

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00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,400
because when when one likes to I
mean, first of all, I don't, I 

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00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,600
don't know how often I'd want to
smell Matthew's fumes. 

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00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,480
But second of all, the the the 
there's. 

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00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,040
I wouldn't want to lose yet 
another value of the face to. 

147
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,760
Face. 
Oh, no, no, absolutely no. 

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00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,600
This is a pale simulacrum, 
right? 

149
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,520
What we really need? 
Which? 

150
00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:39,160
Is to give us together. 
Well, I'm smoking a this is a 

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00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,080
Larson from Copenhagen. 
Oh yeah, very nice Danish pipes,

152
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,360
yeah. 
Yeah, this was a a gift as well.

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00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,160
2-3 years ago I had, I had 
completely burned out. 

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00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,280
I was having all kinds of health
issues from prolonged stress and

155
00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,320
working too hard. 
And I had two different friends.

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00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,440
1 was my one of my high school 
mentors, and then one was a a 

157
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,440
dear friend from here in 
Colorado, both of whom took it 

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00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:08,840
upon themselves to introduce me 
to a life of improved stillness 

159
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,800
by getting me into pipe smoking.
And this was a gift from from 

160
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,080
one of them and the and I'm 
smoking country Squires, black 

161
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,560
and tan land, which is a burly 
Cavendish. 

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00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:22,600
So Matthew, that's your fault as
well. 

163
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:23,600
Oh. 
Excellent. 

164
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,160
Well, gentlemen, perhaps we 
should start with just the the 

165
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,280
basic question. 
Why is stillness A desirable 

166
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,600
thing? 
We live a very fast-paced life. 

167
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,800
On some level that might That 
might seem an obvious question, 

168
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,400
but as something to cultivate as
opposed to simply wish for, why 

169
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,000
is it a desirable thing? 
Well, I mean, there are many 

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00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,840
ways you could into that. 
There's a fine phrase in one of 

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00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,960
GS Eliot's poems where he talks 
about being at the still point 

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00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,960
of the turning world. 
And that's a very helpful 

173
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,320
metaphor. 
The things are whirling round 

174
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:02,760
around. 
They're whirling around some 

175
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,520
kind of centre, which is still. 
This is why the pole star, the 

176
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,040
North Star, was deemed to be so 
important, because the other 

177
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,680
stars sort of revolved around 
it. 

178
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,720
So finding a still point doesn't
necessarily mean retreating to 

179
00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:23,160
epiphery in a periphery. 
It may be a kind of centre, the 

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00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,800
other thing, which is from 
another tradition. 

181
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,720
But in the Eastern traditions of
meditation and contemplation, 

182
00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,000
and particularly in the sort of 
Zen and Buddhist sayings, 

183
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,160
there's always a very nice 
analogy they use of how if you 

184
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,920
keep stirring water that's 
already muddy, it just gets 

185
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,400
muddier. 
You can't clear it by stirring 

186
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,480
it, but if you leave it, 
eventually the mud settles and 

187
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,480
the water becomes clear. 
So there is some kind of, I 

188
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,320
mean, those two metaphors 
between them would suggest that 

189
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,840
stillness has something to do 
with finding a centre and it has

190
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,880
something to do with clarity. 
And of course, the third, which 

191
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,960
caps both of those, you know, 
the poetic and the the Zen 

192
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,680
analogy is of course, the the 
Scripture and specifically the 

193
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:21,120
verse in the Psalms that says be
still and know that I am God. 

194
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,560
Or again, in the story of 
Elijah, you know, going off at a

195
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,280
real Elijah is definitely, if 
you read the book, totally 

196
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,160
suffering from burnout. 
I mean, it's like completely 

197
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,280
finished and he wants to die and
everything, you know, And he 

198
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,600
goes and then there's a massive 
storm and there's all these 

199
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,200
things. 
But God, the voice of God was 

200
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,600
not in the storm and it wasn't 
in the the Thunder. 

201
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,680
But then, you know, then it 
wasn't in the earthquake and 

202
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,080
then there came a still small 
voice. 

203
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,960
And there's something about 
hearing God in the stillness, I 

204
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,480
think. 
Yeah, I've, I've, I was 

205
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,080
wondering if that was Elliot 
because I couldn't remember 

206
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,760
where the the still point. 
And then there's another poem 

207
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,440
and I Malcolm, you need to help 
me figure out. 

208
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,520
He talks about the centre will 
not hold the. 

209
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:15,160
Oh yeah, that's Gate. 
So that's the H's extraordinary 

210
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:20,840
prophetic point in the second 
coming where he says things fall

211
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,000
apart. 
The centre cannot hold. 

212
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,120
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the 
world. 

213
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:33,600
I feel like we're there now. 
And he says about that time this

214
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,080
wouldn't be true of all times. 
He says the best lack all 

215
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,080
conviction was the worst of full
of passionate intensity, you 

216
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:47,760
know, so that fear that if the 
centre cannot hold, then mere 

217
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,360
anarchy is loosed upon the 
world. 

218
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,920
I mean, he's hardly thinking. 
I think he's thinking about in 

219
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,800
political terms about a centre 
and the need for a centre, and 

220
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,720
that he's writing out of the 
distress that the Irish Civil 

221
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,840
War has not yet happened, but he
can see it coming, just as he 

222
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,600
could see the 1st that was 
written before both the First 

223
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,320
World War and the Irish Civil 
War. 

224
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:16,840
But he could see it coming. 
And both of those are crises 

225
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,520
arising from the failure of the 
Centre to hold. 

226
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,520
I want to tug on that thread for
a moment. 

227
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,040
What is the virtue of stillness 
in the face of something like 

228
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,800
that, Whether it's impending 
disaster that you see coming or 

229
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,440
see might that might be coming 
or that you may feel is is all 

230
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,560
around you. 
What's the virtue of stillness 

231
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,840
in that context as opposed to 
springing into action on the one

232
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,080
hand or, or just sort of crying 
out at the world and that that, 

233
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,600
that perhaps the other end of 
the spectrum? 

234
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,200
Well, maybe springing into 
action. 

235
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:57,040
You know, Napoleon had a phrase 
if he was ever accused of 

236
00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,240
retreat, he would say rouquet 
pour MU. 

237
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,440
So fall back in order, better to
advance. 

238
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:08,760
And there's something to be 
said. 

239
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,080
I mean, I don't think there's a 
necessary choice to be made or 

240
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:18,200
contradiction between stillness 
and action, but I think action 

241
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,280
often goes awry if it's not 
preceded by stillness. 

242
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,000
So another book that would be 
very pertinent to our things if 

243
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,720
we suddenly pulled it off the 
shelf is the classic collection 

244
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:37,760
of pieces by Thomas Merton, the 
Monk of Gethsemane in in 

245
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,640
Kentucky, Great American 
Cistercian monk. 

246
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,880
He wrote a collection called 
Contemplation in a World of 

247
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,680
Action. 
That's not Contemplation against

248
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,200
a World of action, it's 
contemplation in a world of 

249
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,120
action. 
So I don't think obviously some 

250
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,760
people are called to a life of 
complete stillness and prayer 

251
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,800
and contemplation, and we 
benefit from their doing that. 

252
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,960
They do that on our behalf. 
But I think particularly people 

253
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,960
whose life involves action of 
one kind or another, whether 

254
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:20,040
it's social action or political 
action or in, you know, Matthew,

255
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,920
musical and literary action or 
my literary, you know, we are 

256
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,320
doing things in the world, but 
we have to do them. 

257
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,160
We mustn't be on the outside of 
the spinning world, just whirled

258
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,720
around and round endlessly. 
We have to find the still point 

259
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,840
before we then move out into the
motion. 

260
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,440
Yeah, this is. 
I was talking a couple of weeks 

261
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,960
ago with Jonathan Rogers, 
another Rabbit Room guy, and and

262
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,920
we're both big fans of Yosef 
Peeper. 

263
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,720
Oh yeah. 
And talking about his idea of 

264
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,920
contemplation and that we are 
pilgrims, that what a human is, 

265
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,320
is a Pilgrim on a pilgrimage of 
beholding. 

266
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:07,040
And but that how hard it is to 
to be constantly choosing to be 

267
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,800
still, to contemplate, you know,
think of that other Psalm that 

268
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,119
talks about what I desire more 
than anything else is to behold 

269
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,359
your beauty to to wait on you 
and your temple and contemplate 

270
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,880
before you and, and then at 
Psalm 46 to be still. 

271
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:24,920
And everything is crazy in that 
Psalm. 

272
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,800
It's just the the sort of 
surrounding circumstance for the

273
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,680
psalmist is, is bananas. 
And he's and he's saying, but 

274
00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,840
I'm going to, I've got to 
somehow find a way to get back 

275
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,040
in touch with what is ultimately
real. 

276
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,600
Yeah. 
The Realist recently. 

277
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,600
We were mentioning Yates, his 
poem, one of his, his finest 

278
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,480
poems, the most famous poems, of
course, is the Lake Isle of 

279
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,720
Inishfree. 
And everybody assumes that he 

280
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,040
was on this beautiful lake 
island in this utterly 

281
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,560
contemplative still space, 
writing a gorgeous poem. 

282
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,360
You know, that's great for 
Yates. 

283
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:06,840
You know, I'm stuck commuting. 
But in fact, he was in London 

284
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,400
and he was walking down this 
very busy street with everybody 

285
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,160
going past him, and he stopped 
in a little. 

286
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:16,040
There's a little jeweller's shop
with a display in the window. 

287
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,040
And somebody had set up like a 
shell with a little fountain 

288
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,520
going up in it. 
And seeing the fountain made him

289
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,480
then remember the lake Isle of 
Inishfree. 

290
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,200
And then he says the poem is 
actually saying it's when I'm 

291
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,960
out on the streets that I hear 
lake water lapping. 

292
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,680
And he says I hear it in the 
deep hearts core. 

293
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:46,960
So somehow his time in places 
where he has, you know, how long

294
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,840
he says he's tried treading the 
pavements grey. 

295
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,240
But then he I hear like water 
lapping. 

296
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,520
I I hear it in the deep hearts 
core. 

297
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,800
And they're just, you have to 
thank Yates just for the phrase 

298
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,000
the deep hearts core. 
I mean, is it great? 

299
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,560
Well, great phrase maker? 
Obviously the centre cannot hold

300
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,400
is a phrase that's been taken 
from his poem and used 

301
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,280
endlessly. 
And I remember once I had a 

302
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,400
conversation with the great 
Irish poet Seamus Heaney, who's 

303
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,600
I think, you know, inherits 
Yates mantle in every respect 

304
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,680
and then entirely sits well on 
his shoulders. 

305
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,480
And he said he thought that it 
is best what poetry offered. 

306
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,240
It might not even be the whole 
poem that you remember. 

307
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:35,840
He said poetry offers phrases 
that feed the soul and you know 

308
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,320
the centre cannot hold and by 
its contrary, its contrast, the 

309
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,040
deep hearts core are both 
phrases that feed the soul that 

310
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,400
we draw from Yeats. 
Yeah, I remember you talking 

311
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,480
about that at some point. 
That really stuck with me that 

312
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,120
that idea of phrases. 
And you don't know what the 

313
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,760
phrases are not be might not be 
the phrase that you thought was 

314
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:03,240
the best phrase in your poem. 
Yeah, that is always surprising.

315
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,920
Yeah. 
Well, because that's part of the

316
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,520
idea of like when you're making,
you're always participating in a

317
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,400
reality larger than yourself. 
Absolutely. 

318
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,480
Things will always mean more 
than you could ever mean for 

319
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,280
them to mean. 
Yeah, well, I always sometimes 

320
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,920
think, you know, that the only 
thing that gives me the, the 

321
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,240
temerity to call myself a poet 
is the conviction that all the 

322
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,440
words I use are older and wiser 
than I am. 

323
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,280
You know, they they they're 
long, old words. 

324
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,600
They know things I don't know. 
And if I set them in this 

325
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,160
particular order, I kind of 
overhear their conversation. 

326
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,480
And then, you know, a poem may 
emerge, but it's from them 

327
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,560
rather than from me. 
Just since we've been quoting 

328
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,880
Yates twice and we're talking 
about pipes. 

329
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,360
I just don't know. 
Just reached it over for my 

330
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,120
pipes. 
This was sort of the first gift 

331
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:52,920
I ever had from the great Jerry 
Reed. 

332
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,280
So going back to what I told 
you, I told you about the long 

333
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,480
stem. 
So he, we were in Grandchester 

334
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,720
Meadows in Cambridge and he'd 
bought a group of people over 

335
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,200
from the Kilns in Oxford and I'd
been asked if I would take them 

336
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,400
around Cambridge and show them 
the CS Lewis's Cambridge as 

337
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,640
opposed to CS Lewis's Oxford. 
Obviously he was much happier in

338
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,560
Cambridge than he was in Oxford.
Here's without saying, but so he

339
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,760
walked out from Cambridge and we
came to Granchester Meadows, 

340
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,680
which is rich in poetic 
associations and, and the 

341
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,680
subject, and they all started 
cutting out their pipes and 

342
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,360
smoking. 
And I felt in my pocket I didn't

343
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,160
have a pipe. 
Of course, he's terrible. 

344
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,720
So don't worry, I've got a 
spare. 

345
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,960
So he gets this pipe out, this 
astonishing pipe, right? 

346
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,760
And he passes it over to me and 
I look at it, I said, that's a 

347
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,640
pre Republic Peterson. 
And he says, how do you know 

348
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:48,720
that? 
I said, well, I'm kind of 

349
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,680
nerdily into Peterson's. 
And he said, well, it is. 

350
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,480
Yeah. 
So enjoy it. 

351
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,560
So we I have filled this great 
huge bowl, which is like, oh, 

352
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,200
you know, full evenings. 
And we sat and talked and I 

353
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,080
started this little game with 
him. 

354
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:06,000
I said, let's try and think 
about all the great Irish poetry

355
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,160
that's been written since this 
pipe was made in Dublin, you 

356
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,560
know, in the 20s. 
So we started quoting Yeats and 

357
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,000
then we spoke quoting Kavanaugh 
and, you know, we finished doing

358
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,880
all this stuff and at the end of
the and then we quoted probably 

359
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,040
the very Yeats poetry. 
So I said, just think, you know,

360
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,160
somebody was reading that poetry
while they were smoking this 

361
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,960
pipe when that poetry was only 
just out. 

362
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,160
So, so at the end of the 
session, I, I reverently and 

363
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,320
gently gave him back the pipe 
and said it was an honour to 

364
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,120
smoke that. 
And he, he says, no, no, it's 

365
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:40,720
yours. 
You know, you can't do that. 

366
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,160
You know, like I, there's my 
when I first they said, no, no, 

367
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,360
no, no, no, no. 
The fact that you knew what it 

368
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:48,880
was and that you thought of 
reciting the poetry means it's 

369
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,120
your pipe. 
So I said to him, look, I'll 

370
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:53,960
tell you what I'm going to do. 
I'll keep this pipe, you know, 

371
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,240
well into my datage or even my 
anecdotage. 

372
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:02,720
But I'll, I'll at some point I 
will meet some younger man who's

373
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,440
into pipe smoking and he will 
get this pipe. 

374
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,680
You know he'll the pipe, it's 
like the ones choosing the 

375
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,240
wizard, like the pipe will show 
me who that person is and I will

376
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:18,360
give him this pipe together with
the stories and it'll pass on 

377
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:21,160
that way. 
That's the way to do it. 

378
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,680
That's so great. 
So you just alluded to something

379
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:30,200
that I think is very important, 
which is the in in the space of 

380
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,520
one story, you hit past and 
future. 

381
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:39,280
We spoke earlier about, you 
know, be still in the 

382
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,360
scriptures, but something that's
said even more often than be 

383
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:47,400
still in the scriptures is 
remember, what is it? 

384
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,400
It it feels to me like when you 
are still, you have a great 

385
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:58,480
store of remembrance to to pull 
from, both in the the the 

386
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,400
biblical sense and in the the 
more modern sense of the word. 

387
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,320
I think a lot of our listeners 
could be forgiven for listening 

388
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,400
and thinking, if only I knew all
those things. 

389
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,000
If only I had an encyclopedic 
knowledge of poetry. 

390
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,480
If only I were a great film 
buff. 

391
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:16,640
If only I. 
If only I. 

392
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,000
If only I. 
For. 

393
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,360
It's sort of a question for both
of you, but I, I, I, I 

394
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:23,280
particularly want to hear your 
answer, Malcolm. 

395
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,880
For, for that person who's 
almost afraid to be alone with 

396
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,560
his thoughts 'cause he's, he 
doesn't want to face them, or 

397
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,960
just wonders if there's even 
going to be anything there. 

398
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,400
Where? 
Where does remembering fit in to

399
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,160
stillness? 
Well, I think stillness is 

400
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,200
certainly the time and place for
remembering. 

401
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:49,480
It allows memory to rise to the 
surface rather than being pushed

402
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,320
aside all vents. 
And that's why a lot of people 

403
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,560
are afraid of stillness, because
they're not sure what will come.

404
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,520
And we all have difficult 
memories and we we tend to 

405
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,360
suppress precisely the memories 
of those times when we've made 

406
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,040
fools of ourselves or said the 
wrong thing or hurt somebody we 

407
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,080
love. 
Or do you know what I mean? 

408
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,880
So you have to be prepared for 
those to come, and you have to 

409
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,960
be. 
That's why why being still in 

410
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,840
the presence of God is 
incredibly helpful, because God 

411
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,200
already knows, as it were. 
God sees in the present the 

412
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,800
things that are in the past for 
us. 

413
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,680
He's already, he's like, they're
eternally present to him, so we 

414
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,000
can give them to him. 
In fact, confession in whatever 

415
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,280
form you take it, I mean, I'm an
Anglican, so I take it in quite 

416
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,640
a liturgical form. 
And I actually think making real

417
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,000
confession to an actual priest 
is occasionally helpful. 

418
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,760
But the point being, if you look
back at the times that now come 

419
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,080
to your memory and you're still 
of where you screwed up in 

420
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,560
various ways or you felt, you 
know, if you really think about 

421
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,240
when you where you went wrong 
while you were in the midst of 

422
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,560
that sin, whatever it was 
basically at that time, you were

423
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,200
forgetting God. 
If you'd remembered God, you 

424
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,600
wouldn't have done that, right? 
So when the memory comes in the 

425
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,080
present stillness, you have a 
chance to remember God as well 

426
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,760
in God being present in that. 
Do you know what I mean? 

427
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,200
And that actually leads to a 
healing of the memories. 

428
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,800
It leads to the 
characteristically and the 

429
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,080
beautiful Christian experience 
of forgiveness. 

430
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,760
In fact, Carl Bart in his 
chapter on the forgiveness of 

431
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,360
sins in Dogmatics in outline, 
the opening sentence of that 

432
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,160
chapter is brilliant. 
It's just says when a Christian 

433
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,000
looks at his past, he is looking
at the forgiveness of sins. 

434
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:38,760
Amazing. 
Yeah. 

435
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,440
It's good. 
So first is not to be afraid of 

436
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,440
the difficult memories as they 
come because you remember them 

437
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,760
now in a presence. 
So there's that. 

438
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,040
But then when you've dealt with 
those, actually other things can

439
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,160
come and you find your mind is 
much fuller than you thought. 

440
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:58,960
You don't think you remember 
things, but in fact you do. 

441
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,600
I mean, I take the view that 
actually nothing, everything 

442
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,080
that goes into our heads remains
there. 

443
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,080
It's just a question of how we 
access it. 

444
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,520
And some people have easier 
channels or habits of access 

445
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,400
than others. 
But everybody can improve that. 

446
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,840
Everybody can try and record. 
Lots of people who've found 

447
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,040
themselves in captivity have 
discovered this, that they can 

448
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:25,520
access books they read ages ago.
You know, they just have to wait

449
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,200
in the stillness of the prison 
cell until it comes to them and 

450
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,720
then they've got it, you know. 
So, you know, there are initial 

451
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,080
things that we fear. 
We have to overcome those fears,

452
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,160
but then we we do. 
But the other thing, memory is a

453
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,200
paradox because obviously 
remembrance is remembrance of 

454
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,240
things past, you know, the great
novel of Marcel Proustelle, 

455
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,280
Recher Chandler, Tom Perdue, you
know, in In Search of Lost 

456
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,000
Times. 
So on the one hand, mate, you're

457
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,680
remembering something in the 
past, but on the other hand, 

458
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,720
your act of remembering that 
past thing is itself in the 

459
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,680
present and therefore the past 
memory. 

460
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:11,320
Even though the occasion of the 
memory is past, the memory comes

461
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,320
into the present and allows some
kind of access and, you know, 

462
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,320
possibility and potential 
because it's present for you 

463
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,120
now. 
So there's a, going back to TS 

464
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:26,720
Eliot, there's a very great 
phrase, he has an essay called 

465
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,240
Tradition and the Individual 
Talent, which is about how do 

466
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,040
you become an original writer in
the when you're at the tail end 

467
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,080
of a massive tradition, how do 
you not just become a, you know,

468
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,040
Milton, Wallaby or whatever? 
And that's an immensely 

469
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,600
difficult artistic question. 
But anyway, in this essay he 

470
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,400
says a poet must be conscious 
not only of the pastness of the 

471
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,960
past, but of, and this is his 
exact phrase, the present moment

472
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,000
of the past, the present moment 
of the past. 

473
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:06,880
Now the word moment is not idly 
chosen by Elliot there. 

474
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,800
I mean, he could have said the 
present instant or minute, and 

475
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,800
that would have given it only a 
temporal meaning. 

476
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,160
But of course, moment is a 
remarkable word because moment 

477
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,240
also means importance. 
This is a matter of some moment.

478
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:28,040
But the reason the the the 
hidden, the forgotten metaphor 

479
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,760
in the word moment when I say 
this is a matter of great 

480
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,760
moment, is a reference back to 
the word momentum. 

481
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,120
It's about the weight and push. 
It's about when something, it's 

482
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,520
like that Newtonian cat's cradle
where the, you know, the ball at

483
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,760
the end hits and then the other 
ones don't move, but a force is 

484
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,320
being transmitted through them. 
The little one out the end does 

485
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,920
that. 
That's momentum. 

486
00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:00,600
And one of the things that if we
don't acknowledge the moment or 

487
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,760
the momentum of past events, 
whether it's in our own life or 

488
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,440
in the life of our nation, they 
act with force nevertheless. 

489
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,720
But it becomes a blind force. 
You know, we can see so many 

490
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,640
wars and crises arising out of 
the a blow that was struck 300 

491
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,800
years ago still reverberating. 
Yeah. 

492
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,200
So the question of we're taking 
a moment, the moment that you're

493
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:32,520
in now to consider the moment of
the past and either to, to, to, 

494
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,320
to, to cleanse it or have it 
forgiven or to have it 

495
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,960
transfigured or transformed so 
that a strength from the past 

496
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,040
becomes available to you without
the bitterness. 

497
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,360
None of those things can be done
except in the present moment. 

498
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,640
I'll tell you the place that I 
think you know, if you want to 

499
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,640
think about why the present 
moment in the screw tape 

500
00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:00,560
letters, the 15th letter, which 
is the letter about time. 

501
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,000
And he says the creatures, human
creatures live in time, but the 

502
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,000
Lord destines the enemy, 
destines them for eternity. 

503
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,640
And you know, then he says which
mode of time is most like 

504
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,400
eternity. 
They think it's the future, but 

505
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,480
the future's completely unreal, 
hasn't really happened. 

506
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,240
The past is frozen and no longer
flows. 

507
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,240
But, and then I'm quoting Lewis 
directly now, but the present is

508
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,760
all lit up with golden rays. 
The present is the point at 

509
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:35,320
which time touches eternity, 
which is one of those phrases 

510
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,440
of, you know, you never forget 
once you read it. 

511
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,240
So to the person who's saying, 
oh, I don't remember anything, 

512
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,200
the answer is be still and 
you'll be surprised how much you

513
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,120
do remember. 
I love that it reminds me of 

514
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,880
that Blaise Pascal. 
Oh yes. 

515
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,360
You know that all of man's 
problems come from not being 

516
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,880
able to sit alone. 
Yeah, Neparest is still Don 

517
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:58,840
Seshunbury. 
Yeah. 

518
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,360
Yeah, that's a great thing. 
It's true, of course. 

519
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,400
Properly speaking, all the 
world's tolls, you know, if 

520
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:04,720
everybody just stayed in their 
room. 

521
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,480
But they'd have to eat sometime.
He's right. 

522
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,880
But you mentioned being afraid 
of what you might remember being

523
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,680
afraid of the thing. 
It's kind of that idea of for 

524
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,880
me, I've been looking what 
really ordinary Saints got me 

525
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,320
onto the idea in David Ford's 
book, and then Roger Scruton's 

526
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,600
book, The Face of God got me 
onto the idea of facing and you 

527
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,960
and Bruce and Jack. 
Oh, yes. 

528
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,280
Face me, Face the face. 
Yeah. 

529
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,640
The ordinary Saints. 
Confusingly, there are two books

530
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,920
called Ordinary Saints. 
There's a collection of essays 

531
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,920
to which you may be contributing
for the the The Square Halo 

532
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,400
published. 
And there's a book of paintings 

533
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,560
by Bruce Herman with poems by 
me. 

534
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,000
I'm thinking of your y'all's 
project and that got me onto the

535
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,280
idea of facing but and then the 
woman at the well has been a big

536
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,360
scene for me, a favorite. 
Scene of the Lord. 

537
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,600
Lord kept me for many years. 
And that scene seems to be all 

538
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,280
about how difficult it is to 
face yourself unless you have 

539
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:08,600
first been faced in love by God.
And so here comes this woman to 

540
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,360
the well in the middle of the 
day, and she has this encounter 

541
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,000
with Jesus, who she has no idea 
that she's actually going to the

542
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,920
well to meet God in the flesh. 
She wouldn't have gotten out of 

543
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,880
bed if she had known that was 
going to happen because she 

544
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,880
couldn't have imagined that it 
could be a good thing. 

545
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,240
But but something happens in 
this moment between them that's 

546
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,280
you don't really. 
It's not described exactly what 

547
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,560
happens. 
You just see the result of what 

548
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,280
happens because she goes running
back to the town singing. 

549
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,200
She has a new song and the lover
is singing, but something, some 

550
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,600
kind of stillness, I think, 
happened. 

551
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,760
There's a moment where she's 
about to turn and go, and in 

552
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,480
this, this moment, this 
momentum, this momentum. 

553
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,000
I love Jesus's phrase at that 
point where he says if only you 

554
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,720
knew. 
If only, yeah. 

555
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,120
If only you knew who is asking 
you, you would ask him. 

556
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,920
You'd turn it all around. 
You know, I often think that the

557
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,920
Jesus is walking around with us,
you know, standing beside us as 

558
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,199
we get ourselves into some Stew 
and going like if only you knew.

559
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,840
Yeah, yeah. 
But I, I think too, that I love 

560
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,280
what you're saying about 
forgiveness and one of the ideas

561
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,520
of thinking, thinking a lot 
about in our culture, 

562
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,960
storylessness, 
decontextualization. 

563
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,679
We talk about disenchantment, 
but there's just kind of an 

564
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:31,880
overall decontextualization 
where I don't know where I came 

565
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,520
from. 
I don't know where I'm going. 

566
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,040
How can I possibly locate myself
meaningfully in a fabric of 

567
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:41,360
narrative here and now? 
And I don't want to look at the 

568
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:42,880
past. 
I don't want to look at the 

569
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,600
generational things that have 
been passed down or the history 

570
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,560
of ideas that have got us to 
this point, because it's really 

571
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:55,040
kind of terrifying to face. 
But if I could face it with 

572
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,200
Jesus, then I can look back and 
I can see forgiveness and I can 

573
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,720
see possibility for the future. 
And then also thinking of time. 

574
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,080
We did this thing at at an 
Anselm Imagination Redeemed 

575
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,880
conference some years ago. 
And I talked about time, but it 

576
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,760
got me thinking about there's a 
difference between mechanical 

577
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,880
time that has to do with this 
little thing you keep on your 

578
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,520
wrist that you feel like is 
controlling your life, or this 

579
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,120
thing you keep in your pocket. 
Versus social time or moral 

580
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,720
time, where what you're 
discovering is that God has 

581
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:38,040
given this gift where there's 
time to see what kind of God God

582
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,160
is, where he can make a promise,
and then that promise has space 

583
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,160
to unfold so that you can learn 
this is someone I can trust. 

584
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,400
This is someone I can put my 
life, my times in his hands. 

585
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,320
Yeah, what The Who he is. 
And then he comes in the 

586
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,040
fullness of time. 
Now that's very good. 

587
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,600
Yeah. 
Of course, the Greek of the 

588
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,560
Greek New Testament has these 
two different words for time, 

589
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,680
Konos and Kairos. 
Kronos is time as measured, if 

590
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,280
you like, by chronometers. 
It's that mechanical time you 

591
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,400
saw Kairos is a is a time of 
crisis or meeting or 

592
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,200
opportunity. 
So sometimes you have to use a 

593
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,720
lot of English words. 
So in the authorized version 

594
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,120
where he's weeping over 
Jerusalem, he says, oh, 

595
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,880
Jerusalem, Jerusalem. 
You know, how often have you if 

596
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,760
only you had known the time of 
your visitation? 

597
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,880
It says in the Authorized 
version and but in Greek it just

598
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,280
says, if only you had known your
Kairos, you know. 

599
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,680
So again, there's a sense in 
which what is Kairos? 

600
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,560
Kairos is never in the past nor 
in the future. 

601
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,840
It's only possibility is to be 
now. 

602
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,400
So then you get later in Paul. 
Behold, now is the acceptable 

603
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,400
time. 
Now is the day of salvation. 

604
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:51,440
And I somebody I think has 
written a book comment there's a

605
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,400
book called The Sacrament of the
present moment. 

606
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,040
And I think there's a lot to be 
said. 

607
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,360
It's not that you shouldn't 
remember and it's not that you 

608
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,480
shouldn't. 
It's necessary to anticipate the

609
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,440
future. 
I mean, I needed to anticipate 

610
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,640
the future in order to be with 
you now. 

611
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:13,040
But those are functional things,
whereas the the Sacramento thing

612
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,360
is right now the actual moment. 
That reminds me of a day, a day 

613
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,320
called today. 
Like the in Hebrews, God has set

614
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,080
a a day and he's called it today
and today. 

615
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,200
If you hear his voice, don't 
harden your remarks. 

616
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,680
If there's some kind of moment 
being created for a response, 

617
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:32,400
but it's. 
It's on, yeah. 

618
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,840
This is the day the Lord has 
made. 

619
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,080
We will rejoice and be glad in 
it. 

620
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,680
Tomorrow isn't the day that the 
Lord has made, because he hasn't

621
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,720
made it yet. 
Yesterday's the day the Lord has

622
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,760
already made, you know. 
But this is the day the Lord has

623
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,400
made. 
And don't miss it, be here now. 

624
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,760
I'll be here now and be present 
to it. 

625
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,080
OK, But I want to push back on 
this a little bit because we've,

626
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:02,320
we've talked about this, this 
idea that if that's true, in a 

627
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,000
sense, it's true of, of place as
well as time. 

628
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,640
The the I, I, I'm doing the 
dishes right now. 

629
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,320
So I have the opportunity to 
meet the great story, to enter 

630
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,200
into the great story in the 
kitchen sink. 

631
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,040
I think probably at least 3/4 of
the people I know would hear 

632
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,680
that and immediately feel a 
sense of pressure. 

633
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:26,240
Oh dear. 
Because you can accurately say 

634
00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:30,440
that there's a sense of if, if, 
if my calling is to bring 

635
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,880
eternity, to participate in the 
work of Christ, in bringing 

636
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,960
eternity and bringing the divine
to this place, claiming this 

637
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,920
little moment, this little space
and time for Christ. 

638
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,320
Oh my goodness, the pressure. 
So how does the insight you just

639
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,760
provided, Malcolm, how does that
translate to stillness? 

640
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,320
Well, I think the very thing you
said, Oh my God, I've got to do 

641
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,840
this. 
This is part of our sort of, you

642
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,800
know, what they call the 
Protestant working because as 

643
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,480
opposed, I presume to the 
Catholic play. 

644
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,880
I think, I don't know. 
But anyway, the The thing is, 

645
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,160
we, we are very task oriented. 
It's arguable that we've been 

646
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,960
made task oriented and also 
filling every, you know, 

647
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,840
filling, fill the unforgiving 
minute with 60 seconds worth of 

648
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,480
distance run and all that. 
That's actually a product of not

649
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,080
only the invention of clocks, 
but the sort of capitalist 

650
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,480
invention of the production line
and all of those kinds of 

651
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,760
things. 
You know, and it's ironic when 

652
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,240
we say, now I've got, you know, 
there is a sense in which my 

653
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:36,680
vocation is to make myself 
utterly available to Christ so 

654
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,680
that Christ may in some small 
way through me be present in 

655
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,040
this moment. 
That's true, but that's not my 

656
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,440
work. 
That's his work. 

657
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,640
I have to be despoenible as the 
French. 

658
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,840
I have to be available and I 
should try sometimes consciously

659
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,960
to make myself available. 
But I may be available to him 

660
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,360
anyway. 
I mean like he'll work with 

661
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,160
anybody. 
He, you know, when he couldn't 

662
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,440
get Balaam to prophecy, he 
prophecy through Balaam's ass, 

663
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,240
you know, So like he, he can 
work with difficult material. 

664
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,320
Very resourceful. 
Yeah, the main thing is that he 

665
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,240
gets, you know, that it's him 
doing it. 

666
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,280
So I really think, you know, 
like thine is the Kingdom, the 

667
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,120
power and the glory. 
I don't think it's a big task 

668
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,080
that you and I don't even think 
you have to yourself be like 

669
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,000
Uber conscious of the Christ 
moment, you know, as it comes or

670
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,000
something like that, and then 
make a quick note of it and 

671
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,680
write a book of theology about 
it later. 

672
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:35,480
I think you just have to be 
there, you know, and in 

673
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,720
returning and rest, as you know 
the scripture says. 

674
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,600
So I would say as soon as you're
beating yourself up about duty, 

675
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,440
you've already got locked into 
the circle of self. 

676
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,680
It may be self reproving self, 
but it's still the self turned 

677
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,800
in on itself. 
As Augustine says, you drop that

678
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,040
and then you make this open 
gesture with your palms, which 

679
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,000
is really here am I for you. 
And the for you bit means that 

680
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,640
that God does his stuff. 
And as Paul says, his strength 

681
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,920
is made perfect in weakness. 
So like if you say, say you're 

682
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,880
in the course of your day, 
you've decided I'm going to say 

683
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:20,120
10 minutes aside, simply just 
sit and be still with or without

684
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,720
the aid of a pipe. 
If you immediately start, as it 

685
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:27,560
were, putting your hand on your 
pulse and taking your religious 

686
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,320
pulse, you know, and 
temperature, all that. 

687
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,080
So how's it going? 
You know, can I have a status 

688
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:33,640
report on this? 
You know, has there been any 

689
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,520
value added in the last 50 
seconds? 

690
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:38,160
You know you've completely lost 
it. 

691
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,120
Just enjoy the pipe, enjoy the 
morning, listen to the bird 

692
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,000
song. 
Don't feel there has to be a 

693
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:50,480
product for Jesus out of that, 
because Jesus is both the end 

694
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,120
and the beginning and the way, 
and His strength is made perfect

695
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,520
in weakness. 
You can just know that you're 

696
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,880
with Him, He is with you, and He
will achieve what He wants in 

697
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,400
the world through you. 
But you don't have to be 

698
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,360
constantly sending back a status
report on it. 

699
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,480
There was a line in your opening
point in the the ever ringing 

700
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,480
till. 
Yeah, it's pretty. 

701
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,280
Yeah, the world with all its 
hopeless hype, its pressures and

702
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,720
its ever ringing till. 
And I've been thinking, yeah, 

703
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,760
I've been thinking about the 
idea of gift economy and Isaiah 

704
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,040
55 and you come, you who have no
money and buy and, and how this 

705
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,440
is my thoughts are higher than 
your thoughts because I know 

706
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,080
that this way of living and 
thinking in the gift economy is 

707
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,960
so foreign to you. 
But I'm going to send my word 

708
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,160
down like rain and snow to water
and make the world flourish and 

709
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,960
my people will be endowed with 
beauty. 

710
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,680
And so just thinking about the 
idea of how there's this totally

711
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,040
foreign economy that God is 
asking us to participate in, but

712
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,880
we're so we're so saturated in 
accomplishment and achievement 

713
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,360
in the ever ringing till that 
it's really hard for us to sit 

714
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,640
still and actually believe in 
that other way of life, which is

715
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,000
the life of the Trinity. 
And I've been reading Sarah 

716
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,800
Clarkson's book Reclaiming Quiet
and she talks so much about 

717
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,680
being a busy parent of I think 4
kids at this. 

718
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,920
Point. 
And she talked about how she is 

719
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,400
learning that difference between
this, this thing that I have to 

720
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:24,240
accomplish, this quiet that I 
have to generate myself versus a

721
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:28,400
quiet that it already exists and
is kept in God and that I need, 

722
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,280
I can visit that place. 
I can visit that that other 

723
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:38,000
world, in this world. 
And part of that is really to do

724
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,840
with the theology of Sabbath, I 
think, as it's in Genesis that 

725
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,880
on the 7th day, God rests. 
Well, the 6th day is already 

726
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,560
over, so this is still the 7th 
day. 

727
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,360
You know, there's an eternal 
Sabbath. 

728
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,920
So the Sabbath is something you 
don't make. 

729
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,520
It's what you enter into. 
So now let's talk about phrases 

730
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,360
that feed the soul. 
Yeah, You know, you Americans 

731
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,400
have got one of the still alive,
thanks be to God, one of the 

732
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,440
great poets of our of our age, 
which is Wendell Berry. 

733
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,960
Yeah. 
And that collection of his, This

734
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,320
is the Day, which is all the 
Sabbath poems, is written on 

735
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,560
Sabbaths. 
So there's a phrase in one of 

736
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,480
those early Sabbath poems which 
says he's going walking out to 

737
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,600
the woods right from off the 
field where he's leaving his 

738
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,960
tasks and his cattle where 
they're lying down and all the 

739
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,360
jobs of the farm in Kentucky's 
walking into this little wood. 

740
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:33,640
And he says, once again, I 
enter, this is such a great 

741
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,200
phrase. 
He says I enter the standing 

742
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:42,240
Sabbath of the trees. 
Now, obviously there's a sense 

743
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:46,120
in which the trees are standing,
you know, and he's so that's 

744
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,080
their Sabbath is a standing 
Sabbath. 

745
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,440
But obviously standing means 
standing over, not being washed 

746
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,440
away. 
And he's actually riffing on a 

747
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:01,200
phrase in Boethius's Consolation
of Philosophy, where he's 

748
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,960
discussing the difference 
between time and eternity. 

749
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,760
And he's trying to get across to
you the idea that eternity is 

750
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,880
not an, is not Infinity, It's 
not an infinite succession of 

751
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,480
separable moments, each to be 
won and lost and found it. 

752
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,640
He says this is exactly his 
phrase in the Latin of the text.

753
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:23,280
He says eternity is a nunc, 
stands a standing now, an 

754
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,600
eternal now and now. 
That's always available. 

755
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:32,720
And he, I think Wendelberry, is 
saying the trees are already in 

756
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:34,640
the Sabbath. 
God is already in the Sabbath. 

757
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,240
God is in this Sabbath. 
Looking at the trees in this 

758
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:40,240
Sabbath. 
It is a standing Sabbath. 

759
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,040
It's like a standing order. 
It's always and all I have to do

760
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,480
is enter into the standing 
Sabbath of the trees. 

761
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,760
Is that the same idea of like we
have a standing meeting like 

762
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:53,560
every Tuesday? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 

763
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,080
This thing, but I just have to 
show up for it. 

764
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:57,400
It's. 
Yeah, it's a standing. 

765
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,240
Yeah. 
Yes, it's standing and with, you

766
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:02,640
know, it's stand and withstand, 
of course, is a famous phrase 

767
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,160
again in, you know, in Pool 
taken up by Luther. 

768
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,280
But yeah, I love that idea that 
the trees are already keeping 

769
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,320
this perfect Sabbath. 
I just have to walk in there and

770
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,960
enter the standing Sabbath of 
the trees. 

771
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,960
That makes me think about my dad
is a tree farmer. 

772
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,040
And so we have, we have all this
acreage of a lot of it's pine 

773
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,440
trees, a lot of it's hardwoods. 
We call it a hardwood stand 

774
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:30,680
actually, or a pine stand. 
And so, you know, we grew up my 

775
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,720
dad was a really gung ho Deer 
Hunter. 

776
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,440
But what I figured out later in 
life is that the reason he likes

777
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,080
to go deer hunting is because it
was a chance to go and sit 

778
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,080
completely still and quiet in 
the woods for hours and hours 

779
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,000
and hours, which was a bit much 
for me as a kid. 

780
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,360
I was too squirmy for that. 
But now I love it. 

781
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:54,400
I love to just go sit and be 
silent for three or four hours 

782
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,000
and just stare at the and then 
talking about things you notice.

783
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,040
It's really amazing. 
If you stare at the same patch 

784
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,920
of woods for three or four 
hours, you begin to get very 

785
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,840
tuned into every little 
movement. 

786
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,920
You see a bird over here, you 
notice everything and all the 

787
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,000
sudden this thing that you might
have scanned quickly past 

788
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,680
becomes so full of life. 
And of course, all the time 

789
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,560
you're noticing your trees, the 
trees or the woods or the 

790
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,840
movements, you are blessedly and
mercifully not noticing 

791
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,520
yourself. 
Yeah, yeah. 

792
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:29,760
So. 
One of the Pistons you have to 

793
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,680
get out of the way in silence is
the self. 

794
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,480
And one of the that's why it's 
so difficult, because the first 

795
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,560
thing that happens when you go 
into science is all your junk 

796
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,520
comes to the surface. 
And yeah, you long for 

797
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,320
distraction so you won't see 
your junk. 

798
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,600
And you just have to say that is
going to drift away. 

799
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,160
The stream is going to carry 
that down. 

800
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,280
Yeah, no, I mean, and you have 
the streams. 

801
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:51,760
I don't think it was found very 
helpful. 

802
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,680
There's a there's a guy called 
Robert Llewellyn who's he's died

803
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,040
now, but I got to know him when 
I was a student and he's a 

804
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,840
Christian priest. 
But he had, he was actually the 

805
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:07,040
keeper of the shrine of Julian 
and Norwich at Norwich, so 

806
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,720
deeply into Julian. 
But he had also travelled 

807
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:15,240
extensively and had actually 
been to Japan and done a full 

808
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:19,280
Zen retreat, but done a Zen 
retreat as a Christian, you 

809
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,240
know. 
So he said, you know, the, oh, 

810
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,840
it's quite difficult at first. 
You'd be sitting in this Zarzan,

811
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,440
you know, kneeling in this 
Zarzan Hall. 

812
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,480
And then there'd be a plane 
going overhead. 

813
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,360
And then Zen master would say, 
don't listen to the plane. 

814
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,600
And then he would say, don't try
not to listen to the plane. 

815
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,520
And then anyway, he passed on to
me a thing this guy, this Zen 

816
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,760
guy had said to him, which I 
found incredibly helpful and 

817
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,160
completely constant with 
Christian things. 

818
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,440
He said when you're entering 
into meditation, he said, think 

819
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,840
of yourself as being on a 
bridge, looking down at a 

820
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,320
flowing stream. 
And down the stream comes all 

821
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,480
your stuff. 
It's the stream of your thoughts

822
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,840
and there are ships on it and 
boats on it and they're piled 

823
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,280
with all your stuff. 
Don't think you have to ignore 

824
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,200
them. 
Don't say by all means see the 

825
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,240
boat approaching. 
Notice the weight it's carrying,

826
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:17,320
whether it's listing to one side
or another. 

827
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,320
See all the stuff as it comes 
towards you. 

828
00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:22,920
Let it pass under the bridge. 
Let the next one come. 

829
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,600
You can look at it as much as 
you like, but he says don't jump

830
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,800
off the bridge onto the ship, 
stay on the bridge. 

831
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,680
And I found that incredibly 
helpful. 

832
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,000
In fact, I often do a lot of my 
still standing where I'm 

833
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,040
fortunate to walk in places 
where I can stand on bridges 

834
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,160
with streams going underneath 
them. 

835
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:49,480
And I find that metaphor of the 
bridge incredibly helpful to 

836
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,160
stand still on the bridge and 
let it go because I used to 

837
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,600
think I had to ignore the stream
and ignore the the ships on the 

838
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:55,840
stream. 
And you can't do that. 

839
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,080
But you cannot jump onto them. 
You cannot get carried away by 

840
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,120
the stream of thought. 
You can simply let it flow 

841
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,760
through you as you stand in this
still place on the bridge. 

842
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,800
I love that that reminds me of 
an image I'm I've been rereading

843
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,880
Elizabeth Gooch's Pilgrims in. 
I haven't read it but. 

844
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,480
But there's an image toward the 
end, and it's an image about 

845
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,840
forgiveness. 
Going back to the idea of time. 

846
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,240
There was a a Faulkner quote 
that said the past is not dead. 

847
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:28,440
It's not even past. 
And she gives the image of this 

848
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,280
stone that's in the middle of a 
stream and everything's getting 

849
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,200
caught, like all the debris, the
branches and the pine straw and 

850
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,000
all these things are getting 
hung up on this stone and 

851
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,080
they're piling up and they're 
clogging up the stream. 

852
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,920
And then there's this moment of 
forgiveness where the, this, 

853
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,280
this stone is removed and 
everything is dislodged and it 

854
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,920
can flow on and, and now this 
person, as she puts it, this 

855
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,280
person can become who they 
really are now. 

856
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,440
And I feel like that a lot when 
I try to get still, I just feel 

857
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,080
like everything is bunching up 
and getting hung up on all the 

858
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:06,760
little obstacles in the water. 
And it, it takes me a while. 

859
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,400
It takes a while to slow down 
for the Lord to come in and kind

860
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,800
of move some things around and 
dislodge some things. 

861
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,040
And that can be really 
frustrating because my 

862
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,680
expectation is shouldn't this 
should be happening quicker? 

863
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:23,760
This should be happening, but it
really learning learning to to 

864
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,120
wait for that. 
Yeah. 

865
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,880
I don't know if you saw just 
recently in the last day, this 

866
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:33,080
extraordinary power cut that 
came out of nowhere and 

867
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,200
afflicted the whole of Spain and
Portugal and some parts of 

868
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,720
France, right? 
Literally everything, some 

869
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:41,920
cascade thing happened. 
And at a certain point in the 

870
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,000
day, everything was turned off. 
I mean, it was chaos in the 

871
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,600
sense that trains couldn't go, 
traffic lights stopped working, 

872
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,520
card transactions, petrol 
stations, everything, literally 

873
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,720
everything went off. 
And obviously there's complete 

874
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:01,520
panic. 
And obviously all the people for

875
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,680
whom it had gone off didn't know
if it's just a local thing 

876
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,080
because they had no access to 
sources of news or information. 

877
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,120
But there've been a few, you 
know, obviously people all 

878
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,280
telling their stories now 
because their power's back on. 

879
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,440
But a few people are saying that
they found it strangely 

880
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,920
liberating. 
They were completely helpless. 

881
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,720
Like there was absolutely no way
they could keep the appointment.

882
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,920
And there was no way that they 
could tell the people why they 

883
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,360
couldn't keep the appointment. 
There was no way they could know

884
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,160
whether the people with whom 
they weren't keeping the 

885
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,280
appointment also couldn't keep 
the appointment. 

886
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,200
They, they had completely 
helpless. 

887
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,160
And they were restored for a 
moment to the condition that 

888
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,400
most of humanity has been in 
most of the time, which is not 

889
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,000
being constantly in touch with 
everybody and knowing what time 

890
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,160
it is. 
Yeah. 

891
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,560
You know, now, I mean, I'm not 
saying we should all have power 

892
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,320
cuts like that all the time, but
I think it was quite salutary. 

893
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,440
Right. 
Brian, I don't want to interrupt

894
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,000
you if you're about to say 
something, but there was one 

895
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,680
more idea I wanted to bring up 
and ask you about Malcolm and 

896
00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:05,080
ask you also, Brian, I was 
listening to Ken Myers on 

897
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:08,840
Marshall Audio Journal this 
morning and he was talking about

898
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,720
Arvo Peart, the the composer. 
Oh yeah. 

899
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:14,240
And he was interviewing the guy 
who had apparently made a 

900
00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:17,160
graphic novel biography of Arvo 
Peart. 

901
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:19,520
But one of the. 
Things I talked to. 

902
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:23,120
Yeah, I haven't seen it yet. 
This is news to me, but it 

903
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,760
sounds amazing. 
And he was interviewing that guy

904
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,560
and they were talking about Arvo
Parrot's idea of of the 

905
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,400
silences, of leaving these 
silences in the music. 

906
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:39,320
And this idea that sometimes God
is silent. 

907
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:44,240
And that's very frustrating is 
maybe that silence is 

908
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:47,840
uncomfortable or it leaves all 
this room for things to pop up 

909
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:49,360
in my head that I don't want to 
think about. 

910
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,920
But the way he put it really was
helpful to me because he said 

911
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,920
it's like any good conversation.
God is leaving room for us to 

912
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,480
participate. 
He's creating a space in the 

913
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,480
conversation so that we can 
enter into it. 

914
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,520
Because he was saying that's 
Arvo Parrott's idea is that he 

915
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,240
wants to make music but leave 
enough room between notes so 

916
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:12,680
that the imagination of the 
listener can actually enter into

917
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:13,320
the music. 
Oh. 

918
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,120
It's beautiful. 
And, and then the, the visual 

919
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,520
artist was saying, there's a, 
there's a visual analogue with, 

920
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,600
if you're drawing panels, like 
in a comic book, that a lot of 

921
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,680
action happens between the 
panels. 

922
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,120
You have a stance and then you 
have, something has changed by 

923
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:30,800
the time you get to this next 
panel. 

924
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,000
And it was actually in between 
those images in the silence that

925
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,520
something took place. 
The story has moved forward in 

926
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,200
the characters have have 
developed. 

927
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,680
And so I was thinking about that
frustration of God's silence, 

928
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:46,600
but how God is all. 
And I've also been reading Pope 

929
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,640
Benedict's Jesus of Nazareth, 
the first of those. 

930
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,560
And there's this undercurrent 
constantly of union. 

931
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:58,160
And one of the God is drawing us
up into participation in the 

932
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,840
life of the Trinity. 
But one way he does that is by 

933
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,520
this this hospitable 
conversation. 

934
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,160
That's very good. 
The thing about silence again, 

935
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,360
going back to your great poet 
Wendell Berry, he's got a poem 

936
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:16,600
called How to Be a Poet Brackets
to remind myself, which I have 

937
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,120
pinned up in my little writing 
Hut. 

938
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,760
I sometimes never get past the 
third line. 

939
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:30,160
So the first 3 lines are make a 
place to sit down, sit down, be 

940
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,120
quiet. 
But the poem goes on to say, 

941
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,640
accept what comes from the 
silence. 

942
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:44,000
Make the best you can of it. 
Try to make a poem which does 

943
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,600
not obscure the silence from 
which it came. 

944
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,360
Yeah, Bieber talks about that 
too, about music and silence. 

945
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,520
That essay in Only the Lover 
Sings. 

946
00:55:54,960 --> 00:56:01,040
As perhaps a last turn to our, 
our conversation, I, I'd love 

947
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,440
for us to talk a little bit 
about how this object and the 

948
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,480
habits we build around it can 
push us toward this, not only as

949
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,640
a, as a, as a distinctive thing,
but as a case study. 

950
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:17,680
Because when I was, when I was 
growing up, I mean, the 

951
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,240
Christianity as, as I 
encountered it was very, it was 

952
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:24,640
very gnostic. 
It was very, you sort of step 

953
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,480
away from the world in order to,
you know, close your eyes to, 

954
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,200
to, to pray. 
If, if you love something, it's 

955
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,800
probably, it's probably bad. 
It's probably going to make it 

956
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:35,800
into an idol. 
And there are very legitimate 

957
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,400
concerns and fears in all of 
that that led to all of those 

958
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,680
things. 
However, pipe smoking this 

959
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,920
object for me, for starters, it 
was in in my own story was was a

960
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,000
vehicle for healing when I first
encountered it. 

961
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:54,400
But it, but it's also an object 
and it has an activity around it

962
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,760
that allows us to not only enter
into stillness, but practice 

963
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:03,960
stillness. 
So I, I have my own anecdotes on

964
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,280
that, but I want to hear each of
each of yours. 

965
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:11,480
How does the pipe and the Art of
pipe Smoking help you to 

966
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,800
practice stillness? 
Well, there's a paradox here, I 

967
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,960
think, and there's a particular 
thing about pipes and pipe 

968
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,320
smoking. 
You're doing, you're really 

969
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,760
smoking a pipe in order to do 
nothing, in order to have that 

970
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:23,560
still. 
That's the end. 

971
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,840
But in fact, you are doing 
something, but it's something 

972
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:31,200
very outward and simple. 
You have to take the pipe off 

973
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,160
the rack. 
You fill the pipe. 

974
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:35,400
You quite often real as you 
probably saw with me, you're 

975
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:40,720
realizing it and this is 
actually taking all the energy 

976
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,800
of distraction that might 
otherwise just be in circulating

977
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:45,800
dumb thoughts about yourself or 
whatever. 

978
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,240
It's actually in this. 
It's the equivalent for us of 

979
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:54,880
what telling beads was in prayer
and it gives the monkey mind 

980
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,560
something to do. 
Well, if you like the Christ 

981
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:04,320
mind can finally surface and and
be its thing. 

982
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:08,400
I mean, I'll see if I can just 
find out a phrase in the when I 

983
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,880
wrote this essay for for the 
Square Halos Ordinary Saints 

984
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,600
book. 
I have this sentence where I say

985
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,800
so when I smoke my pipe. 
I am active to that degree. 

986
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:25,960
I am admittedly doing something,
but I'm only active in order to 

987
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:30,080
be passive. 
I do these little things in 

988
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:34,240
order at last to do nothing. 
And then, surprisingly and by 

989
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:39,040
sheer grace, in that mellow, 
smoky space, something of beauty

990
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,960
is born, something for which 
there would have been no room if

991
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,520
the pipe had not commanded me to
relax. 

992
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,200
Beautifully put. 
Yeah. 

993
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,320
How about you, Matthew? 
Well, it made me think of a 

994
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,520
couple of things. 
One, I'm I'm a fan of Esther 

995
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,480
Lightcap Meek, and she's a 
Christian epistemologist that 

996
00:58:58,480 --> 00:58:59,320
I've gotten to know. 
She's really. 

997
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,000
Good. 
I had a conversation with her in

998
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,000
the In the Eagle in Saint 
Bennett St. in Cambridge just 

999
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,760
recently. 
She's she's wonderful. 

1000
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,000
I really love she's. 
Really good, yeah. 

1001
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:14,200
But she talks a lot about the 
thickness of things and and so 

1002
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,240
there's something about I can I 
can feel this thing in my hand. 

1003
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,320
It's an it's really here. 
And in some sense it's reminding

1004
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,960
me that I'm really here too. 
I can get so lost in my head and

1005
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,160
another Ken Myers things. 
We're not just brains on sticks.

1006
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,880
You know we're we're well God 
has bodied forth some part of 

1007
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:37,520
his imagination in US even and 
there's something ratifying 

1008
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,480
about that. 
There's something that says an 

1009
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:43,120
Amen to the goodness of the 
things that God has made. 

1010
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,240
And that's another part of 
people's work is is like he says

1011
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,640
one of my favorite parts is you.
You can't tell somebody happy 

1012
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:54,720
birthday and mean it If you 
agree with start that existence 

1013
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,680
is absurd, he said. 
But if you really agree with 

1014
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,920
what's going on at the center of
things that. 

1015
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,000
That God has said, I like this 
stuff, I like this world that I 

1016
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,800
made, this is my dream and it's 
coming true and I love it. 

1017
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,880
Then I can hold the and I can 
feel the warmth of this pipe in 

1018
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,840
my palm and I can smoke it and I
can enjoy letting it drift out. 

1019
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:20,080
And even that can become this 
way of agreeing with God about 

1020
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,560
what He has said is good. 
Well, I think entering into the 

1021
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,600
Sabbath is entering into God's 
looking at the world and seeing 

1022
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,680
that it's good. 
It's letting go of our partial 

1023
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,160
judgements. 
Just seeing that God sees all 

1024
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:37,800
these things, He's including us,
that He is at this moment 

1025
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,840
contemplating us. 
I mean, it's hard to believe, 

1026
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,000
but He's counting up, placing us
with pleasure. 

1027
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,160
Of course, He sees the sin and 
He knows how to do with it. 

1028
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:49,080
He sees the completed person. 
He sees the idea he had, and He 

1029
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:53,800
sees the idea He had becoming 
itself through time, Time being 

1030
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,040
another idea that he had. 
Yeah. 

1031
01:00:56,040 --> 01:01:01,880
And so getting to to enter into 
that, that mutuality, if, if he 

1032
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,200
is contemplating and enjoying 
us, well, maybe I can 

1033
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:09,120
participate in this, this 
incredible world that he's made 

1034
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:11,960
and say, well, Lord, I I'll 
enjoy you back. 

1035
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,360
I'll enjoy. 
Your returns exactly right. 

1036
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,720
And this is a way to do that. 
Just one little way. 

1037
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:19,840
Simple way I'll. 
Enjoy you back as a good phrase.

1038
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,680
I think there could be a song in
there, Matthew. 

1039
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:23,800
Well, I'll work on that. 
Maybe we can work on it in 

1040
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,560
Belfast. 
There you go. 

1041
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,200
Yeah. 
The other thing, I, I I I find 

1042
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,640
that life as I know it, the the 
busyness, the pace, the the 

1043
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,840
hamster wheel, however you want 
to conceptualize it tends to 

1044
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,560
scatter me. 
I go through a lot of days 

1045
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,440
feeling, you know, like, like 
Bilbo Baggins put it like butter

1046
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:48,080
scraped over too much bread. 
And, and this little fellow 

1047
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:56,440
who's older than I am tends to 
force me to recollect myself in 

1048
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:00,800
both senses of that word. 
I have to be fully present to 

1049
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:04,640
the pipe. 
But what typically happens is 

1050
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:09,720
shortly thereafter, I am then 
fully present to whatever the 

1051
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,400
silence brings. 
And sometimes it's just looking 

1052
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:16,760
up and seeing my kids running 
through the yard laughing and 

1053
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:21,320
I'm able to just fully enter 
into my delight in their 

1054
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,360
laughter. 
But we've also, we've also all 

1055
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:28,400
seen it in social contexts. 
Oh yes, let's get together with 

1056
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,960
a few other guys and smoke pipe,
smoke our our pipes for an hour.

1057
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,000
And next thing you know, it's 
been 4 hours and everyone is 

1058
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,200
saying things they wouldn't have
said before the pipe smoking or 

1059
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,680
wouldn't even have said one hour
into the pipe smoking. 

1060
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,080
But all of a sudden 
vulnerability is happening and 

1061
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,320
connection is happening. 
And because they're all fully 

1062
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:49,080
present to each other. 
Absolutely, yeah. 

1063
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:53,840
Well, gentlemen, I want to be 
respectful of your time because 

1064
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,280
that is a thing that we have to 
do in the world that we occupy, 

1065
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,520
even in the face of everything 
that we have just been talking 

1066
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,080
about. 
But thank you both for joining 

1067
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,320
me for this conversation. 
I appreciate both of you sharing

1068
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,520
your wisdom. 
And I thoroughly enjoy doing a 

1069
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,440
podcast where I get to mostly 
listen and where it's well worth

1070
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,520
doing. 
So the Imagination Redeemed 

1071
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,040
podcast is a production of the 
Anselm Society. 

1072
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,400
It's easy to see this world as 
disenchanted and to give up hope

1073
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,680
that there's more. 
But you were made to see the 

1074
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,560
world with the eyes of heaven 
and to live a bountiful life 

1075
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:27,400
that participates in the life of
God. 

1076
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:31,280
Like in the great stories, the 
Anselm Society is a place where 

1077
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,000
you can come in and experience 
that beauty, joyful celebration,

1078
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,400
and ancient wisdom and go out 
renewed, bringing that life to 

1079
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:42,320
your vocation, home and church. 
Join us next time as we pursue a

1080
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:44,640
renaissance of the Christian 
imagination together.