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There was Eru, the one who in 
Arda is called Eluvitar, and he 

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made the first Ainur, the holy 
ones that were the offspring of 

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his thought, and they were with 
him before aught else was made. 

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And he spoke to them, 
propounding to them themes of 

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music, and they sang before him,
and he was glad. 

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But for a long while they sang 
only, each alone or but few 

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together, while the rest 
hearkened, for each comprehended

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only that part of the mind of a 
Louvatar from which he came. 

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And in the understanding of 
their brethren they grew, but 

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slowly, yet ever as they 
listened, they came to deeper 

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understanding, and increased in 
unison 

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And it came to pass that 
Eluvitar called together all the

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Aynor, and declared to them a 
mighty theme, unfolding to them 

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things greater and more 
wonderful than he had yet 

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revealed. 
And the glory of its beginning 

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and the splendor of its end 
amazed the idol, so that they 

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bowed before Illuvitar 
Eluvitar said to them of the 

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theme that I have declared to 
you, I will now that ye make in 

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harmony together a great music. 
And since I have kindled you 

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with the Flame Imperishable, ye 
shall show forth your powers in 

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adorning this theme, each with 
his own thoughts and devices, if

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you will. 
But I will sit and hearken and 

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be glad that through you great 
beauty has been wakened and 

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song. 
Then the voices of the iron ore,

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like unto harps and lutes and 
pipes and trumpets and feels and

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organs of a Loubitar to a great 
music and a sound. 

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A rows of endless interchanging 
melodies woven and harmony that 

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passed beyond hearing into the 
depths, that into the heights 

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and the places of the dwelling 
of a Louboutar were filled to 

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overflowing. 
And the music and the echo of 

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the music went out into the 
void. 

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Never since have the iron ore 
made any music like to this 

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music, though it has been said 
that a greater still shall be 

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made before Illuvitar by the 
choirs of the Aynor and the 

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children of Illuvitar. 
After the end of days. 

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Then the themes of Illuvitar 
shall be played aright and take 

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being in the moment of their 
utterance. 

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For all shall then understand 
fully his intent in their part, 

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and each shall know the 
comprehension of each, and 

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Illuvitar shall give to their 
thoughts the secret fire being 

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well pleased. 
But now Illuvitar sat and 

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hearkened, and for a great while
it seemed good to him, for in 

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the music there were no flaws. 
But as the theme progressed it 

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came into the heart of Melkor to
interweave matters of his own 

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imagining 
Tamelkor among the Aynor had 

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been given the greatest gifts of
power and knowledge, and he had 

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his share in all the gifts of 
his brethren. 

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He had gone often alone into the
Void, The Void places seeking 

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the imperishable flame, for 
desire grew hot within him to 

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bring into being things of his 
own. 

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And it seemed to him that 
Eluvitar took no thought for the

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Void, and he was impatient at 
its emptiness. 

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Yet he found not the fire, for 
it is with Eluvitar. 

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But being alone he had begun to 
conceive thoughts of his own 

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unlike those of his brethren. 
Some of these thoughts he now 

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wove into his music, and 
straightway discord arose about 

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him, and money that sang nigh 
him grew despondent, and their 

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thought was disturbed, and their
music faltered. 

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But some began to attune their 
music to his rather than to the 

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thought which they had at first.
Then the discord of Melkor 

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spread ever wider, and the 
melodies which had been heard 

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before foundered in a sea of 
turbulent sound. 

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But a Louboutar sat and 
hearkened until it seemed that 

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about his throne there was a 
raging storm as of dark waters 

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that made war upon one another 
in an endless wrath that would 

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not be assuaged. 
Then Eluvitar arose, and the I 

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nor perceived that he smiled, 
and he lifted up his left hand, 

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and a new theme began amid the 
storm, like and yet unlike to 

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the former theme, and it 
gathered power and had new 

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beauty. 
But the discord of Melkor rose 

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an uproar and contended with it,
and again there was a war of 

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sound more violent than before, 
until many of the iron ore were 

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dismayed and sang no longer, and
Melkor had the mastery. 

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and endlessly repeated, and it 
had little harmony, but rather a

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clamorous unison, as of many 
trumpets spraying upon a few 

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notes. 
And it is sane to drown the 

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other music by the violence of 
its voice. 

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But it seemed that its most 
triumphant notes were taken by 

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the other and woven into its own
solemn pattern. 

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In the midst of this strife were
at the halls of a Louvitar 

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shook, and a tremor ran out into
the silences yet unmoved. 

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And Louvitar arose a third time,
and his face was terrible to 

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behold. 
Then he raised up both his 

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hands, and in one chord, deeper 
than the abyss, higher than the 

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firmament, piercing as the light
of the eye of music ceased. 

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Then the Louvitar spoke, and he 
said, Mighty are the Aynor, and 

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mightiest among them is Melchor,
But that he may know and all the

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I nor that I am Louvitar, Those 
things that ye have sung, I will

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show them forth, that ye may see
what ye have done. 

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And thou, Melchor, shalt see 
that no theme may be played that

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hath not its uttermost source in
me, nor can any alter the music 

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in my despite. 
For he that attempted this shall

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prove but mine instrument in the
devising of things more 

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wonderful, which he himself hath
not imagined. 

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Then the Inor were afraid, and 
they did not yet comprehend the 

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words that were said to them. 
And Melcour was filled with 

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shame, of which came secret 
anger. 

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But Eluvitar arose, and splendor
and he went forth from the fair 

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regions that he had made for the
Aynor, and the Aynor followed 

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him. 
But when they were common to the

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void, the Loubatar said to them,
Behold your music. 

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And he showed to them a vision, 
giving to them sight where 

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before was only hearing. 
And they saw a new world made 

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visible before them, and it was 
globed amid the void, and it was

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sustained therein, but was not 
of it. 

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And as they looked and wondered,
this world began to unfold its 

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history, Inor had gazed for a 
while and were silent, the 

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Livitar said again. 
Behold your music, this is your 

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minstrelsy, and each of you 
shall find contained herein, 

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amid the design that I set 
before you, all those things 

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which it may seem that he 
himself devised or added. 

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And thou, Melkor, wilt, discover
all the secret thoughts of thy 

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mind, and wilt perceive that 
they are but a part of the 

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whole, and tributary 
Welcome to the Imagination 

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Redeemed podcast where we follow
the great stories further up and

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further in In Pursuit of the 
Life of Christ. 

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Hello, everyone, welcome to the 
Imagination Redeem Podcast. 

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I'm Sarah Howell. 
I will be your host today and 

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I'm here with Young One and Amy.
Say hi everyone. 

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Hello. 
Hello. 

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Today we just got to hear one of
the most beautiful performances 

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from our Fall Feast by Jamie and
some fantastic musicians of JRR 

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Tolkien's Ina Lindelay. 
Did I say that right, Amy? 

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Sounds great to me. 
This creation story. 

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It's a fancy word cosmogonical 
story. 

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I've heard it could be called as
well is just the perfect story 

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in my mind to take us out of 
this fall theme that we've been 

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talking about for the last 
couple of months of redeeming 

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the time this theme. 
We've gone through a lot of 

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things about songs, a lot of 
things about feasting, we've 

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talked about a theology of death
right around Halloween or All 

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Saints Day. 
And so today we'll take a lot of

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those things and see them 
through this beautiful story 

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that has so much depth. 
There's no way we can get to it 

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all. 
But how perfect of a story to 

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end on one about creation in the
midst of discord and death that 

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we are in now, and to see how 
song is at the heart of life and

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to think about feasting on the 
goods present. 

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So let's just get started. 
It's a really intense story, 

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young one. 
I think you were just explaining

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to me at the beginning, before 
we pressed record, that you've 

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not read The Silmarillion. 
I think most of our audience 

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probably hasn't. 
I love the Silmarillion, the 

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where the story comes from in 
Tolkien's work, but I have never

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read the trilogy. 
So I think that's you and me. 

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We're about 1 fan of for Jr. 
Tolkien. 

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Yeah, I think the fan badge 
requires a lot more. 

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At least a costume. 
You know something? 

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Yeah. 
I did not in my regular life or 

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for Halloween wear a costume for
Tolkien. 

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So, but let's Orient ourselves 
to this story and yeah, kind of 

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give a little synopsis. 
Amy, I've, I've been told that 

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this is one of your favorite 
stories. 

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Can you give us the five year 
old version of how you would 

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describe what happened in the 
story that we just listened to 

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and what's it all about? 
Sure. 

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And feel free to fill in the 
gaps, folks. 

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I think we're we're looking at a
creation story of the the one, 

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the creator of the cosmos that 
Middle Earth is set in, who 

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chooses to create the world with
the participation of these 

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higher beings that he has made. 
And so the creation of the world

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basically comes from a song that
that each being, each of the 

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Valor sing according to who they
are or the the Aynor sing 

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according to who they are. 
And then we see this song as 

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they sing together. 
They don't know it yet, but the 

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world is being made and the 
Livitar Eriu Livitar is sitting 

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down to harken on to it. 
And then one of them decides 

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that he would like to have prime
place in this role of creation 

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and brings a a separate melody 
of discord into it. 

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And then we see that second 
melody being answered with a 

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second theme from Illuvitar, and
then a louder discord coming 

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from Melcor, the one who would 
like to take over a lot of this 

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as his own dominion. 
And then a third theme arising 

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in which new things are 
introduced, a new sorrow, I 

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think, a new acknowledgement of 
the evil that has come in, but 

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then also a kind of song that 
enfolds and envelops the best 

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notes, it says, of the discord. 
And so that is how the creation 

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of the world comes about. 
How'd I do, Sarah? 

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That was wonderful. 
What a really. 

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Yeah, what's what strikes you 
guys about the story? 

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Why do you love it, Amy Young 
one? 

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How, how, how has it hit your 
ears reading it for one of the 

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00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,880
first times? 
It, it does remind me obviously 

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of like our own biblical 
creation story, especially the 

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how the very first parts of our 
creation story in the Bible is a

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good creation followed by 
followed by the fall. 

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And those things happen in the 
very first chapters of the Bible

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together. 
And then you see almost an 

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immediate reaction for 
redemption. 

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And then I see that also here, 
obviously Tolkien was trying 

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from that. 
And so that was the first thing 

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that there isn't this waiting 
necessarily that that this God 

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is immediately unfolding what is
broken, what is evil, but then 

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redeeming it or that redemption 
starts right away. 

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00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,880
And then it also reminded me of 
the way Aslan sings his creation

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00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:06,440
into being in in Narnia. 
Yeah, I think I've loved it 

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since I first read it. 
Just the notion of the world 

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coming into being through music,
I feel like that's pretty 

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integral to the way that the 
human race has looked at the 

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00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:18,800
world. 
You know, you think of the music

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of the spheres and different 
things that we're even still, I 

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think, discovering about 
resonance and harmony and how 

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things are held together. 
And so it really seems to make 

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00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,520
sense. 
I think on this reading it 

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00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:40,600
struck me how beautiful it is 
that Eriu Livitar has the INR 

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play this role. 
It's very much, I think, in line

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with Tolkien's thoughts on sub 
creation and the way that the 

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Lord allows us to participate in
creative ways in the making of 

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00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:58,560
restorative things, of new 
things, of new worlds even. 

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00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,720
So yeah, all of that. 
Yeah, and then I mean he's 

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speaking specifically to Melcor,
this discordant figure, but at 

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00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:13,480
the very end of where Jamie 
ended her her piece, because the

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00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,200
I know Linda like goes a little 
bit farther, but he says, you 

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know, all that the Inor do is 
but part of the whole and 

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00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:28,440
tributary to his glory. 
And so it's it's wonderful to 

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00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:35,040
see the kind of sovereignty and 
power of this one, the all 

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00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,360
powerful being, as he allows for
the participation and sub 

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00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:45,480
creation of his his, you know, 
his the lower beings to like 

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gauge in the creation through 
song. 

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But let's dive in. 
So I think we'll mostly be 

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talking about the three themes 
of a Lou Vitar with obviously 

222
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,960
how Melcor has brought in this 
discord. 

223
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:08,480
And so we have our the original 
theme, Malcor's Discord, and 

224
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,880
then a Louvitar comes in with 
two different themes. 

225
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,880
I think it might behoove us to 
kind of jump in and query just a

226
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,720
little bit what the heck is 
going on with these two themes. 

227
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,080
They come first. 
The first one comes from his 

228
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,200
left hand and then the second 
one comes from his right. 

229
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,440
I don't know if you guys have 
the story up in front of you, 

230
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,480
but was there anything about 
these two themes in response to 

231
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:41,160
Melcor's growing discordance 
that you guys noticed or or a 

232
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,640
thought seemed pertinent or at 
least strange? 

233
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,560
Am I? 
Right in thinking Illuvitar 

234
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,400
isn't directly involved in the 
first theme, is it that he sets 

235
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,560
the iron ore to singing and then
Melcor comes in with his 

236
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,800
discord? 
It seems, I don't know, it says.

237
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,080
Then a Louvitar arose, and the 
Ayenor perceived that he smiled,

238
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,440
and he gives us the. 
Second one, but I mean the first

239
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,200
time when he sets the music 
going, when he tells them to 

240
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,880
sing, is he mostly listening? 
I believe so. 

241
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,600
OK, so then. 
OK. 

242
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,640
So then that really 
distinguishes the second theme 

243
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,280
from the first, that when he 
opens his left hand, the new 

244
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,160
theme that begins, he's got 
direct involvement in right. 

245
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,800
Well, I think he, he doesn't 
sing anywhere, right. 

246
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,600
He doesn't personally sing he 
right. 

247
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:40,160
The way it begins is that he 
just thinks the the INR 2 to 

248
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,680
exist and then they he makes 
them sing. 

249
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,040
Right, right. 
But there seems to be more of a 

250
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,160
direct involvement that he has 
in the second, something about 

251
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,840
because it's after he lifts up 
his left hand that a new theme 

252
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,160
begins amid the storm. 
So that sounds like he has more 

253
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,680
of a direct intervention there 
maybe? 

254
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,360
Yeah. 
Yeah, because I mean, then we're

255
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,800
we're jumping back to the first 
thing, which I love. 

256
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,280
It is a very slow beginning for 
how the music starts. 

257
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,880
And it does, young one, for all 
of those of you who who loves CS

258
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,000
Lewis and know the Magician's 
Nephew well and and that 

259
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,880
creation story there with Aslan 
singing both here and in that 

260
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:31,440
one, the song starts slowly and 
things begin to transpire 

261
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,320
slowly. 
So it it says. 

262
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,640
Oh, I'm sorry, it does say that,
he begins. 

263
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:42,560
He gives them the theme, right? 
Yeah, but it takes them a little

264
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,560
while to understand because they
only have the part of the mind 

265
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,160
of the Louvatar from which he 
the from which that iron ore 

266
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,320
came. 
And so they have to understand 

267
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,400
one another, bring one another 
to then really begin to 

268
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,680
understand their part. 
So I mean, if you think about 

269
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,280
this in a Symphony, it's, it's 
hard to know exactly when to 

270
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,720
come in for yours part in the 
song if you're not listening to 

271
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,840
everyone else, right? 
And so I think I really like in 

272
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,120
the beginning how they kind of 
slowly begin to create the 

273
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:23,840
harmony and unity together and 
therefore learn their parts 

274
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,280
better. 
Yes. 

275
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:33,120
So it I, I do think Amy, I could
at least I like to ponder as 

276
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:38,240
well that it seems like a Lou 
Vitar gives the first theme and 

277
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,360
it's slowly being worked out and
growing in harmony and unison. 

278
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,200
Once the discord comes in, a Lou
Vitar arises. 

279
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,280
He smiles, he lifts up his left 
hand and this new theme begins 

280
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,280
and it starts gathering power 
and new beauty and it seems 

281
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,880
quick and it seems like he's 
really in young ones words like 

282
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:06,440
being that forceful conductor of
of pushing against the storm of 

283
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,480
discord that's coming at at the 
iron ore the. 

284
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,480
Power of beauty, which is an 
interesting way to describe that

285
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,640
power. 
It's not a forceful. 

286
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,160
It's not a power of hammer. 
It also reminded me, and I 

287
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,800
wonder if this was intentional 
from the author, the way that 

288
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,640
Jesus arises from his boat, from
his nap to calm the storm, that 

289
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,160
he lets the storm brew. 
But then as he is getting up to 

290
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:41,560
comment, he he doesn't need to 
like like he can just do it. 

291
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,960
It is a simple thing to have and
here as well, it seems that way 

292
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,640
that for Lubitar to stand up 
because the INR it says that it 

293
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,680
looks like he's smiling. 
You know, they perceive that he 

294
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,840
smiled. 
So you would think that it 

295
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,680
should be a frown like, oh, 
Melkor is throwing off. 

296
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,320
You know, he's he's off playing 
his own melody and instead of 

297
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:13,360
rising with anger and 
punishment, which seems 

298
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:18,000
deserving, but then he actually 
arises with a power of beauty 

299
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,320
and of a smile, which is a very 
interesting way to deal with 

300
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,680
this chord. 
But that is, that is how he's 

301
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,680
doing it. 
At least the first time. 

302
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,800
Yeah, Yeah. 
Yeah, the first time. 

303
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,040
And I mean even thinking about 
the the disciples in the boat, 

304
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,960
they were dismayed. 
And the Aynor are also dismayed,

305
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,320
and they're so dismayed as 
things get worse and worse, even

306
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,560
though Eluvitar has stood up, 
that they sing no longer. 

307
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,320
And that's when Melchor gets 
louder and louder, and that's 

308
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:55,200
when the stern Eluvitar gets up 
and puts out his right hand as 

309
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,040
well. 
This one is interesting because 

310
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,640
it first it says, at first it's 
soft and sweet, a near rippling 

311
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:09,040
of gentle sounds and delicate 
melodies, and then it says, But 

312
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,440
it could not be quenched, and it
took to itself power and 

313
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,840
profundity. 
And then it goes on to say that 

314
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,040
it was deep, wide, beautiful, 
but slow and blended with an 

315
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,720
immeasurable sorrow from which 
its beauty chiefly came. 

316
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,680
So in the midst of this 
beautiful story, these various 

317
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,480
themes and discord, what are we 
talking about? 

318
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,240
Why does this matter? 
Does this feel to you guys like 

319
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,760
a beautiful story that is 
interesting to think about? 

320
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,440
Or do you guys see this as 
practically helpful in 

321
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,120
understanding our place in our 
world with our creation story? 

322
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,120
Yes, I do see a mirroring in our
creation story in a way that I'm

323
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,160
actually kind of grateful for 
because, I mean, this may be 

324
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,320
beside the point a little bit. 
But as I've been reflecting on 

325
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,600
the kind of art maybe that is 
needed today more than ever, I 

326
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,280
think there is value to the art 
that draws us to beauty, that 

327
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,200
points us to the beauty of God. 
And I think there's also a deep 

328
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,400
need for art that can hold both 
beauty and brokenness at the 

329
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,440
same time and acknowledge the 
brokenness. 

330
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:30,160
But show that the beauty, the 
the power, the sovereignty of 

331
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,560
God ultimately has the last say.
So to find that in this story 

332
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,080
feels like an affirmation of the
story that we're living. 

333
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,360
Yeah, it is an affirmation, I 
think. 

334
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,560
So. 
I was just reading recently a 

335
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,840
book by Peter Lighthart called 
Deep Comedy, and I think it 

336
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,520
speaks to exactly what you're 
talking about, Amy, that you've 

337
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:54,520
picked up and and found assuring
and orienting from Tolkien's 

338
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,320
Inalunda Lay. 
Peter Lighthart talks, though, 

339
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,120
about how historically humans 
have not seen the world as 

340
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,160
deeply comedic, deeply 
wonderful, that ends in 

341
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,480
marriage, but they've seen it as
deeply tragic, one that ends 

342
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,040
inevitably in death. 
And I think that the reason why 

343
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,240
I'd like to talk today about 
this story and where I want to 

344
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,840
lead our conversation is to 
think about our romanticism of 

345
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,400
this kind of tragic way of 
looking at the world, this view 

346
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,880
that it's all going to 
inevitably end in death. 

347
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,240
And I think that's really 
important for this fall theme as

348
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,880
we think about redeeming the 
time because of this season as 

349
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,920
the leaves fall, decay is all 
around us and the light is 

350
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,400
leaving that kind. 
There's there are different 

351
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,880
kinds of antidotes to responding
to this negative view of change,

352
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,920
wistfulness, nostalgia. 
I think it would be important to

353
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,000
kind of name the different ways 
that we can take this up in our 

354
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,200
own hearts and in our own 
culture of seeing. 

355
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,960
I don't know if I could use the 
words from the story, focusing 

356
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:14,200
so much on the discord and 
romanticizing it and bringing in

357
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,680
our own kind of sorrow, but 
perhaps one that isn't oriented 

358
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,520
in the right way. 
And so at the bottom of all this

359
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,120
though, it's really a question 
of what do we do with change? 

360
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,000
Do we see it as deeply tragic, 
ultimately always tending 

361
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,240
towards making more of a mess, 
making more discord, making more

362
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:40,120
towards entropy and and decay? 
Or is there a different way to 

363
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,720
look at change, to look at 
Eluvitar's themes as deeply 

364
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:51,600
beautiful, comedic, wonderful as
we were even saying earlier, 

365
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,080
Amy, involving participation as 
sub creators, his creation. 

366
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,600
So obviously I'm giving away 
some of my thoughts on where I 

367
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,120
think this story inevitably 
takes us. 

368
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,480
But Amy, that's what you said 
too. 

369
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,200
And and honestly, Tolkien does 
that too. 

370
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,360
I love how Tolkien at the 
beginning of even, I mean, all 

371
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,760
throughout the trilogy, which I 
know I haven't read all of it, 

372
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,640
but he will, he'll often tell 
you what's going to happen 

373
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,080
before it happens. 
So it's not about the suspense. 

374
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,840
It's about being present with 
the Fellowship as they go 

375
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,320
through it themselves too. 
So that's, that's a long spiel, 

376
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:37,240
but I, I would love to ask you 
guys, especially you, Amy from, 

377
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,240
from your beautiful book, a 
homeward ache. 

378
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,040
You talked a lot about like 
insufficient antidotes to 

379
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,840
describing a certain kind of 
longing that that has to do with

380
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,240
this change. 
Do you want to, do you want to 

381
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,160
take us through some of the 
things that you've learned and, 

382
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:59,440
and the alternative? 
Well, first of all, I I love the

383
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:05,240
notion of trying to figure out 
what story it is that we're in. 

384
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,920
I'm, I'm fairly sure I've talked
about this somewhere, but 

385
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,719
there's a movie called Stranger 
Than Fiction in which the 

386
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,600
protagonist figures out he's the
main character in a novel and at

387
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,480
some point he decides to try and
figure out if he's in a tragedy 

388
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,960
or comedy. 
So he has this little notebook 

389
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,080
with tragedy on one side and 
comedy on the other. 

390
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,679
And as things happen to him 
throughout the day, he gives 

391
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,080
little tally marks to one 
category or the other. 

392
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,360
And and that is interesting that
I think we have an almost innate

393
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,920
sense of what a tragedy is, what
a comedy is, where they should 

394
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,199
lead. 
And I think we would have that 

395
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,199
even if we didn't have the 
literary grapes and patterns and

396
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,960
archetypes before us. 
But Frederick Beekner talks 

397
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,600
about tragedy and comedy and 
telling the truth, the gospel as

398
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,280
tragedy, comedy and fairy tale. 
I think is is something like the

399
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,160
subtitle, but one of the things 
that he points out that I've 

400
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:01,640
always loved about 
Shakespeare's, that 

401
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,520
Shakespeare's got his corpus of 
tragedies and comedies. 

402
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,520
And then towards the end of his 
life, these plays that don't 

403
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,240
quite fit in either category, 
but that are all the richer for 

404
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:15,480
including both elements of 
tragedy and comedy. 

405
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:18,600
And so they're often called 
tragic comedies or romances. 

406
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,080
Those are my favorite plays 
because of the the 

407
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,920
acknowledgement of what loss and
grief can bring, but also the 

408
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,360
way that life can continue on 
out of the back end of tragedy, 

409
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,200
I guess you could say, and still
lead to an ending that is 

410
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,960
beautiful, that points to hope 
ultimately. 

411
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,320
So. 
So when I think of the homeward 

412
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,960
ache, which is what I wrote 
about for this book, I usually 

413
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,040
think of it as something that we
all clue into, or many of us 

414
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,040
clue into through instances of 
joy. 

415
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:01,440
It's joy that surprises us. 
I feel like on our progress 

416
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,480
through life and the way that we
respond to it reveals an 

417
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,320
understanding that we have like 
maybe of the same sort, the 

418
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,520
understanding that we have of 
tragedy and comedy, but we have,

419
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,360
we seem to have an understanding
that we are separated or 

420
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,840
divorced from something that 
ought to have been. 

421
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,720
And when we find these glimmers 
of joy, we're, we're finding, I 

422
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:29,920
guess, small little revelations 
of truth of where things ought 

423
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,000
to be, what we were created for 
essentially. 

424
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,560
So when it comes to change, I 
think the biggest change that we

425
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,120
have to contend with is that 
though we were made for 

426
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,600
communion with God, I'm, I'm 
hopping pretty quickly on to the

427
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,840
Christian version of this truth.
But even though we were made for

428
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,000
full communion with God, even 
though we were created to live 

429
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,840
in a world that wasn't fallen, 
all our lives were contending 

430
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,360
with change. 
And, and very often it seems 

431
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,080
like the kind of change that 
sunders us further from the 

432
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,880
place where we want to be. 
The things that we get glimmers 

433
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,400
of that were shot through by 
from time to time. 

434
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:15,800
So, so I don't know if that's 
quite where you were going with 

435
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,160
your question, but that's me 
trying to figure out the 

436
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,360
relationship of the homeward 
ache of homeward yearning and 

437
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,840
change and time. 
No, I love that. 

438
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,720
And that's a wonderful answer, I
think, this being pierced by 

439
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:35,280
something beautiful and the kind
of peace and joy that comes from

440
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,360
it. 
When I read that in your book, 

441
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,000
it immediately made me think of 
CS Lewis's comment in his essay 

442
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,880
Transposition that says we can 
only hope for what we can 

443
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,920
desire. 
And so ultimately, I think 

444
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,240
wrapped up in this conversation 
about change, wrapped up in this

445
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,800
conversation of how we view the 
world as a comedy or tragedy, 

446
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,120
happy or sad in the way that, 
you know, death is before us. 

447
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,200
All right? 
That's one thing we can all 

448
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,840
count on. 
I personally am the kind of 

449
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:14,720
individual who it's hard for me 
to see the end as happy when the

450
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:21,480
end, at least from the way that 
my eyes can see without faith 

451
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,480
giving me wings to go higher, is
to see death. 

452
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,920
And So what to do with this 
desire, this longing for 

453
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,000
something more? 
And how am I supposed to engage 

454
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,080
that desire so that I can have 
hope? 

455
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,960
It seems like it, it seems 
counterintuitive to me that I 

456
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,000
would have to feel the desire in
order to have the hope to have 

457
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,480
the wings, when it seems like 
the desire only makes the death 

458
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:58,560
seem more obvious and more hard,
more more like a loss. 

459
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,360
And so I don't know. 
What do you guys think about 

460
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,480
that? 
Do you have that quandary as 

461
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,240
well? 
This might be a sideways answer,

462
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:13,520
but sometimes I think the, the, 
the dread and the hopelessness 

463
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:19,760
of that anticipation of, of 
death, decay, of evil is not so 

464
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,600
much that you're going to die, 
it's that on the way to death 

465
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,480
you're seeing other people die. 
That makes sense. 

466
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,920
So and it like in this story, 
the when the Einar are seeing 

467
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,800
they, they can see male core 
coming in and disrupting and 

468
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,840
putting evil in or trying to at 
least. 

469
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,720
And then we can see like in the 
season of fall, like you're not 

470
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,320
dying, but you can see the 
leaves are dying. 

471
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:53,200
And I think it's more that that 
like our, we can only take it 

472
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,120
seemingly when we see and we 
don't see what's behind it. 

473
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:03,600
What we can see with our simple 
senses, direct senses, is decay 

474
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,840
and loss of things. 
You know, as we're watching our 

475
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,280
garden. 
Kind of close out, but it feels 

476
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,080
like that's right. 
If I didn't know what was coming

477
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,120
next year, if I didn't know that
there were bulbs in the ground 

478
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,320
that could and and seeds in the 
ground that will re flower and 

479
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,800
the grass will grow back. 
It just looks like all 

480
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,760
destruction. 
No more flowers for the for the 

481
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,200
season, for the year actually. 
And so I think that is what kind

482
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,840
of erodes hope for us because 
that's what we because we don't 

483
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,040
know what's behind it. 
We don't know what's in the 

484
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,480
ground that's waiting to come 
back to life. 

485
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,960
It it's the same thing with 
this. 

486
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,320
When Malkor is singing or or 
putting that bad music, this 

487
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,920
chord into the harmony. 
I don't know if the other I nor 

488
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,200
can tell what's going to happen.
But what they can see is chaos. 

489
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,240
What they can hear is chaos. 
Actually, it's interesting. 

490
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,280
I can't see at all. 
Just hearing for now, yeah. 

491
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,720
And I think that kind of goes to
like how the story fits with the

492
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:13,440
season in that sense. 
Like fall is an interesting 

493
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,640
season because if you've lived 
through enough falls, you know 

494
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,560
there's a spring, but it might 
trick you into thinking there 

495
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,120
isn't 1. 
And so it's it's helpful to have

496
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,280
the stories of spring in fall so
that you know that this isn't 

497
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,320
like the end. 
Yeah, yeah. 

498
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,640
And and maybe a little amount of
faith, but that you do have a 

499
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,560
faith in a spring for something 
that is not yet seen, but a a 

500
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,280
strong conviction and and true 
evidence for it. 

501
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:48,880
I haven't thought of it that way
before. 

502
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,360
It's it's a long wait because 
winter is long sometimes. 

503
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,720
Yeah, into into death in its own
in its own right. 

504
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,480
And that our bodies are going 
through these patterns, right? 

505
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:09,160
Like we all do kind of slow down
and hibernate to A to a larger 

506
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,320
degree. 
In the winter, things get slower

507
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,680
and we're waiting for that new 
life again. 

508
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,720
Even though we might know it's 
coming, there is still some sort

509
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:20,360
of process we have to go 
through. 

510
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,760
And I think everyone deals with 
that process differently. 

511
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:30,640
As a melancholy person who tends
towards flirting with nihilism, 

512
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:41,960
as someone who loves things 
repetitively done, nostalgia to 

513
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,720
me is really thick in the fall. 
Ellen Collies really thick in 

514
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:52,440
the fall and those are 
definitely the tendencies that I

515
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,920
can lean towards just out of 
habit and propensity during this

516
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,760
time. 
But which? 

517
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,760
Which is funny because it is 
moving towards those desires, 

518
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:05,760
but I would argue not in the 
Super healthy way or not in a 

519
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,680
way that considers the spring 
that's coming. 

520
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,160
Yeah. 
How do you, Sarah, see the 

521
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,400
intersection between this story 
and the fall? 

522
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,840
I don't mean the fall, the 
season of fall. 

523
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,800
Ultimately, I think I see it in 
the way that the iron ore stop 

524
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,120
singing when the discord 
happens. 

525
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,720
It's it's in that moment when a 
Lou Vitar has raised his left 

526
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,400
hand. 
Things have gotten strong and 

527
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,640
there's a whirlwind going on. 
And in the midst of all of that,

528
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,200
the iron ore who I if I'm going 
to relate to something in the 

529
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:46,840
story, it's them. 
It's the sub creators, they all 

530
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:53,200
the words that it uses are that 
they were dismayed and sang no 

531
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,720
longer. 
And there's that kind of halting

532
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:04,120
and stopping and paralyzing 
experience that I can relate 

533
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,720
with. 
And I think that's the way that 

534
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:09,400
I, I'm, that's the way I've been
trying to describe my 

535
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,680
melancholic nostalgia, which 
stems from this kind of 19th 

536
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,680
century romanticism of tragedy. 
I think that's the way that I 

537
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,760
kind of turn towards dismay is 
kind of by shutting down and by 

538
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:31,240
only thinking about the past as 
opposed to the faith and the 

539
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:35,360
response that we're supposed 
that that happens instead that 

540
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,640
Alouvitar shows us in the third 
theme. 

541
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,880
And so ultimately, I would, I 
would be interested in US 

542
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,920
looking at what it means for us 
to join in the song of the third

543
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,360
theme. 
Do you enjoy looking at the 

544
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,480
leaves in the fall? 
Oh, I do. 

545
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,400
And and isn't that so 
interesting how God has made it 

546
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:05,000
so that right before all the 
leaves die, it bursts into 

547
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,760
glorious color? 
And so, so as a as both of you, 

548
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,960
I think are a little melancholy.
How does that how does that 

549
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,720
feel? 
Like you have what looks like 

550
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:23,200
glorious redemption, but it's 
very brief and like in in some 

551
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:30,400
places it's like one weekend. 
And so, but there is both AI 

552
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,400
think the right interpretation 
is not that it's coral irony, 

553
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,400
but that it is glorious. 
And it is like something to 

554
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:42,400
remind you of like the beauty of
spring that you won't see the 

555
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,640
colors of the flowers, but you 
will see the colors of the 

556
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,080
leaves before they're dormant 
for a while. 

557
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,440
I don't know if you kind of 
thought of that or that that 

558
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,720
makes sense to you. 
I have to think about the colors

559
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,080
of the leaves. 
I think so, I think. 

560
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,840
Are you saying that it can be 
read two different ways? 

561
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,840
Yeah. 
And in this story, too, you can 

562
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:09,920
read that, like if you're the 
Inor and you don't know what 

563
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,800
Eluvitar is about to do, even 
when he's doing it, you don't 

564
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,360
really know what he's doing 
until later. 

565
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,840
Yeah, and it's kind of that way,
too. 

566
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,480
Like if you've never had fall 
and you suddenly see burst of 

567
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,680
color. 
Yeah, maybe you're thinking of 

568
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,280
it in a different way. 
Yeah, yeah. 

569
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,440
I mean, I think in one way you 
could look at the changing of 

570
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,320
the leaves as just when they're 
at their, you know, upon the 

571
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,840
cusp of glory, they're cut, 
their life is cut, and they all 

572
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,400
have to fall from the trees. 
But that's one way to look at 

573
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,360
it. 
And I think we maybe also see 

574
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,200
that reflected in the reaction 
of the iron ore when Melcor 

575
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,800
first comes in with his discord,
that some of them hesitate and 

576
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,280
they start to feel despondent. 
They haven't really felt 

577
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,280
despondent before, but here they
are feeling confused. 

578
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,720
And some of them join their 
harmonies to his melody because 

579
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:02,040
it's almost like they're trying 
to figure out what's the true 

580
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,240
melody that's going on here. 
What is the role that I'm 

581
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:07,960
supposed to be telling playing? 
And what is the reality that I'm

582
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,360
supposed to attach myself to? 
So then when Eluvitar comes back

583
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,200
in with his theme, well, that 
happens. 

584
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,560
And then Melcor comes in 
stronger and more violent, it 

585
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,720
says. 
And that's when they stop 

586
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:23,920
singing. 
I feel like that reflects our 

587
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,000
confusion sometimes in terms of 
what is the what is the true 

588
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,120
reality that we live in? 
Is it the one that is only seen,

589
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,880
or is there a reality behind the
things that are seen woven 

590
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,480
together with it? 
So as an iron ore, say, if 

591
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,080
you're paying attention to this 
song, this music that's going 

592
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,080
on, you have to learn to detach 
yourself from the idea that 

593
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:53,080
violence or volume is the 
indicator of reality. 

594
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,680
And I feel it's the same way 
when I'm standing out in the 

595
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,720
garden. 
Like, either you can look at it 

596
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,920
as just as things are getting 
good, they're cut in their 

597
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,680
prime, or if you live long 
enough, you know that spring 

598
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,360
will return. 
And I think that maybe is 

599
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,760
something that happens to us as 
children, that maybe the first 

600
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,240
autumn is full of wonder, but 
then you wonder where it goes. 

601
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,240
I think there's a little golden 
book about puppies where they 

602
00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,240
kind of go through that journey.
I'm sorry, I don't know the 

603
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:24,280
title. 
Or, or is it an act of grace 

604
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,920
that just as things are about to
get quiet, just as things are 

605
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,120
about to seemingly die for an 
entire season, that we're almost

606
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,560
shown this glimmer of promise 
that things will not always be 

607
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,400
this way? 
That there is something at work 

608
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:43,040
underneath the things that we 
can see that transcends it, but 

609
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,400
also imbues it so that we can 
look forward to a future season 

610
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,800
with hope. 
Like what Young One was saying 

611
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,520
before about death. 
I believe it was George 

612
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,720
MacDonald, maybe an unspoken 
sermons who says if you knew 

613
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:59,200
what God knows about death, you 
would clap your listless hands. 

614
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:03,640
And death is maybe the ultimate 
change that we fear because it's

615
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,760
a change that's undesirable. 
It's a change that we often have

616
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,920
no power over, whether it's 
losing somebody or being lost 

617
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:15,880
ourselves. 
But even that is is not the end 

618
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,040
of the story and that there is a
season to come. 

619
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,920
It effectively makes death a 
gateway instead of a terminal 

620
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,560
end. 
So that in itself points us to, 

621
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,320
I think, away from violence, 
away from volume. 

622
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,240
It directs us to look at the 
nature of the thing. 

623
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:38,040
It is the nature of our garden. 
It is the nature of our world to

624
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,280
keep bringing those seasons back
again. 

625
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,960
Is there a nature that we can 
trust on the greater scheme of 

626
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,680
creation to do something 
unexpected? 

627
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:51,440
A nature that is maybe even now 
giving us clues as to what he's 

628
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,040
like so that we can rely on that
nature and not violence and 

629
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,760
power and volume. 
And there's a wistfulness in the

630
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,520
beauty of the fall leaves 
because you know it won't last, 

631
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,720
but it is beautiful. 
You know, you get to enjoy it. 

632
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,680
And and yet you also have an 
expectation that you're going to

633
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,560
get more of this later. 
But you know, you can't hold on 

634
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,600
to it. 
Actually. 

635
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,320
I mean, everyone tries to press 
leaves and hold on to it, but 

636
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,040
you can't truly hold on to it. 
You can't glue all thousands of 

637
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,560
leaves back on a tree. 
So it's interesting because, you

638
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:30,600
know, I thought of that, Sarah, 
because you were talking about 

639
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:34,520
wistfulness and nostalgia. 
It's it's like nostalgia. 

640
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,400
You're you're building nostalgia
on the spot as the leaves are 

641
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,480
changing color. 
Like I wish I could have this a 

642
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,600
little longer. 
It's so true. 

643
00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:51,280
It's so true. 
But but I love, Amy, what you're

644
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:55,760
saying in response to that, even
for what young one just said, 

645
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,920
it's and it's not just an 
appreciation of beauty or 

646
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:06,280
escapism into something that you
know, into, into an alternative,

647
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,120
alternative way of things, 
right? 

648
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,480
It's the joy of what is present 
and it's the promise of what is 

649
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:20,640
to come in the spring and and to
be able to hold both at the same

650
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,320
time at the at the last moments 
of fall. 

651
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,680
The thing that I just thought of
with your comment, young one, 

652
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:31,600
was something to the fact the 
effect that the season of fall 

653
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:36,520
is a time that we get to 
practice this again and again. 

654
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:41,200
Of enjoying something for a 
moment and stirring up that 

655
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:46,000
desire and enjoying even though 
it isn't full. 

656
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,640
And in in the theological way, 
like consummated to the new 

657
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,160
heavens and the new earth to be 
fully realized and all of its 

658
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,480
glory. 
But it's still yet in its moment

659
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,360
is glorious. 
And we are in this moment and 

660
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,880
that we need moments, this 
moment to next moment to the 

661
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,040
next one. 
And each fall is a moment of 

662
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,320
that we get to practice again 
stirring up that that desire. 

663
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:16,280
Amy from from your book, you 
were talking about some 

664
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,840
beautiful, beautiful examples 
and and people and authors in 

665
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,560
your life and you state 
something like this. 

666
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,480
You say there will these 
people's willingness, their 

667
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,760
courage to be so vulnerable 
before the father opens a way 

668
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,280
for us to acknowledge the 
absences we feel. 

669
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:42,560
And to me that smacks of the 
vulnerability that's required of

670
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:48,120
practicing desiring something 
and not receiving it. 

671
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,000
And it's fool. 
Apparently. 

672
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,040
Lewis says that that's the way 
that we can have hope. 

673
00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:00,920
But help me get there. 
I don't how does this season? 

674
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:07,320
How does seeing its glories? 
How does this practice producing

675
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:11,800
us hope? 
I'm in the middle of doing some 

676
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,720
research for a short piece about
Beekner and and one of the 

677
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:20,160
things that he's talking about, 
I've been reflecting on the way 

678
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:24,080
that he views the past. 
That we have to be able to sit 

679
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,800
down and look at the past and 
find the meaning. 

680
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,120
Not not to manufacture meaning 
out of it, but find the meaning 

681
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,320
that's built into it because the
way that he came to look at 

682
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,160
life. 
Frederick Beekner was to view 

683
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,520
life as a story and to think 
that it, well, a story has a 

684
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,000
plot. 
And if there's a plot, then 

685
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,160
where is mine going? 
But also where is the 

686
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:47,040
overarching story of humanity 
going with the author of the 

687
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,960
universe? 
And, and I feel like that's one 

688
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,720
of the things that we often 
overlook, the places that we 

689
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:56,880
come from, the particularities 
that we were made of. 

690
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,400
Jamie Smith talks about that and
how to inhabit time a lot. 

691
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,480
And I love it because we're made
of certain particularities. 

692
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,800
Those are the particularities 
that we're going to bring into 

693
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,640
the new creation. 
And it's when we look back and 

694
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,880
we see grace in all the places 
that we may have missed it, the 

695
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,920
presence of God where it met us 
and we didn't even know it. 

696
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,400
Those are the things that are 
going to directly inform how we 

697
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,800
move forward into the future. 
And that is hope essentially. 

698
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:27,920
So I mean, if we want to take 
back, take it back to the I know

699
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,280
Lindelay, even I think one of my
favorite parts of the story is 

700
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,960
when Melkor is being his most 
clamorous and most insistent. 

701
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,520
It says that he had achieved his
he had managed to achieve the 

702
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,360
unity of its own, his song. 
But it was loud and vain and 

703
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,840
endlessly repeated, and it had 
little harmony, like many 

704
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,400
trumpets spraying upon a few 
notes, and it tried to drown out

705
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,400
the other music, but it seemed 
that its most triumphant notes 

706
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,000
were taken by the other and 
woven into its own solemn 

707
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,560
pattern. 
And that is the kind of thing 

708
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,560
like 01 said earlier that we see
from the get go in Genesis of 

709
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,520
God being able to take even the 
things that we think are the 

710
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:13,240
most poisonous, the most 
grievous about our change and 

711
00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:16,640
about our condition and folding 
that into something that would 

712
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:21,040
become even more glorious than 
we have the ability to imagine. 

713
00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:24,800
So I think that's reflected in 
the leaves, that we would think 

714
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,840
that the things are just going 
to die and shrivel off the vine 

715
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,440
or the branch. 
But at that very last moment, 

716
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,360
we're shown realities that were 
present the entire time, but 

717
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,760
that we did not notice in the 
spring or the summer and that 

718
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,560
are blazing into view before our
eyes. 

719
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:49,360
I feel like that in itself is a 
visual indication of, again, the

720
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,760
nature of God that we're able to
rely on. 

721
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,480
And that's where our hope ought 
to come from and not just ought 

722
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,280
to come from, but can come from 
like a deluge. 

723
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:03,120
Just witnessing that kind of 
small, maybe seemingly 

724
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,400
insignificant, those miracles at
work in our lives. 

725
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,960
Those are the things that inform
the hope that we have as we move

726
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,160
forward. 
But I don't think that it's 

727
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,160
something that we ought to 
catechize. 

728
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,800
Is that a word? 
It's not a thing that we ought 

729
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,040
to package into a neat lesson 
and make people do it. 

730
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,640
I think it's the kind of thing 
that comes as you read the story

731
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:30,120
that you're in, like a reader 
coming to a story that's being a

732
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,480
story and not just a packaged 
Sunday school lesson. 

733
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,280
As you experience the story, 
there's something that takes 

734
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,600
root in you, that starts to dare
to breathe and starts to dare to

735
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:46,720
hope. 
That's beautiful and makes 

736
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,560
reflection seem very defiant. 
Yeah. 

737
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:52,680
Very courageous and defiant, 
that's. 

738
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,320
Very true. 
I don't often think of it as an 

739
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,400
activity like that, so I like 
it. 

740
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:04,520
And it is very because I was 
sitting here and when I first 

741
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,640
asked the question, I was 
thinking of like a living hope, 

742
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,440
like, how does this change what 
I am doing today? 

743
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,800
How do I look at my temporary 
home differently? 

744
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,840
How do I look at my husband and 
I? 

745
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:20,640
He's in the Navy and we've moved
at least every eleven months for

746
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,920
the last five years just with 
the way things have gone. 

747
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:27,960
And so it the there are 
literally other pilgrims next to

748
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,280
me. 
I am passing them in the night 

749
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:35,480
in many many ways and yet I am 
called to steward relationships 

750
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,120
with my neighbor and with the 
person in front of me and dive 

751
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,760
in. 
How do I do this in the midst of

752
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:46,000
all this change? 
What is a living hope and your 

753
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,040
comments Amy make me think that 
and tell me if I'm wrong in in 

754
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:54,400
my understanding of you. 
But it's it's it's more of this 

755
00:57:55,080 --> 00:58:02,120
counter clockwise cycle of as we
spend time with the Lord, 

756
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:06,120
reflecting on the grace that he 
has given us and asking for the 

757
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:11,240
wisdom and the vision to see 
what he is doing and to enjoy 

758
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,320
and see the favor that he has 
placed on us in the as Matthew 

759
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,680
Clark said in one of our 
conversations, the delightful 

760
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,880
breeze on your skin on a hot day
as as that's the favor of the 

761
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,280
Lord. 
Maybe that's him saying he's 

762
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,240
pleased with you reflecting on 
all of that. 

763
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,520
And so going back that 
counterclockwise to reflect 

764
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:38,360
actually brings you through to 
the present moment to live with 

765
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,160
living hope. 
But it's not something that you 

766
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,600
conjure in that moment. 
It's not something like you're 

767
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,560
saying you catechize and now 
that you have this tool in your 

768
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,200
tool belt, you can kind of whip 
it, whip something out and and 

769
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:53,840
state an aphorism or something 
like that. 

770
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:59,360
Yeah, what does living hope mean
for you as you carry it with 

771
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:01,680
you, as you've had to carry it 
with you through so many homes, 

772
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,440
Sarah? 
Yeah, that's a good question. 

773
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,440
I would say honestly, Amy, the 
way that you described 

774
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:14,160
reflecting on one's story and 
seeing God's faithfulness gives 

775
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,760
me a sort of ability to, I 
wouldn't have articulated it 

776
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,560
that way, but I think the ways 
in which I have been able to do 

777
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:26,960
that, I'm able to see all the 
fruits that he's currently 

778
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,920
giving me a little bit easier 
because I've practiced seeing 

779
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,760
them in the past. 
And so I, I look for them where 

780
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,120
I currently AM. 
But I also think that when we 

781
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:43,480
think about redeeming the time, 
this all has to come from a 

782
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,360
foundational conviction that I 
have and within the Christian 

783
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:51,120
story that we we have eternity. 
We have forever. 

784
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:56,160
And so the things that we are 
sowing and the ways in which we 

785
00:59:56,160 --> 01:00:02,280
are partaking in the Kingdom of 
God are not void. 

786
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:08,880
I I love in the Lindelay when 
the iron ore. 

787
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,200
Are singing and it says they 
sang into the void and it was 

788
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,400
not void. 
Yes. 

789
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,560
It sounds really it's a simple 
sentence, but there's this 

790
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,240
profound weight that just drops 
in my soul when I hear that. 

791
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,040
And I think that that's what it 
is. 

792
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,880
There's this knowledge that 
every, every connection and 

793
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,240
relationship that I build and 
not as a transactional I'm, I'm 

794
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,960
building a relationship. 
But every time I get to bring 

795
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:41,560
life into someone else's day, I 
can see that as just as relevant

796
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:48,400
as if it's once or if I get to 
walk with them for 10 years and 

797
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,200
they're my best friend. 
Because in the end, we will be 

798
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,440
walking for miles and miles and 
miles together into the new 

799
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,040
heavens and the new earth. 
So I think having a more eternal

800
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,920
mindset is a way that I'm able 
to see that living hope and 

801
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,920
maybe that that bridges those 
poles so you can go counter 

802
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,080
clockwise back to the past to 
see. 

803
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:13,040
But then you also can look 
forward to the completion of all

804
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:19,440
things and that it is not void. 
Yes, I love that I'm hearing in 

805
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,600
your language some beautiful 
things too, like the notion of 

806
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,280
the counterclockwise and the 
ticking of the clock. 

807
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:32,480
It's almost like if you have a 
moment to reflect in the 

808
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,280
present, like why is it that the
clock should even keep ticking 

809
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:36,560
for you? 
And it has. 

810
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,800
And all the moments that it's 
brought you through gives you a 

811
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,520
clue as to maybe how to approach
the the times that are coming. 

812
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,480
And I, I think we talked about 
this a little bit in the 

813
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:54,040
conversation preceding this 
recording, but change can be an 

814
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,640
alarming thing. 
It can be a disorienting thing, 

815
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:02,720
but change can also be the thing
that we embrace in prop in a 

816
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:04,760
progress forward as in a 
pilgrimage. 

817
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,480
So I hear that a lot of that in 
your language as you're talking 

818
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,640
about how you've learned to love
and how to live into the time 

819
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:15,440
that you have, but also look 
forward to it into eternity. 

820
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:20,080
That's one context, usually in a
pilgrimage where the change 

821
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:24,560
isn't so dreadable, I guess you 
could say, because you're 

822
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,640
looking at milestones that 
you're passing, you're looking 

823
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,280
at how much closer you're 
getting to the destination. 

824
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,640
And so to reframe it that way is
in essence a framework of hope. 

825
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,080
So thank you for that. 
Well, you articulated things 

826
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,080
that I didn't even know. 
I said that's beautiful. 

827
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:44,320
It happens in the body of 
Christ. 

828
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,280
You know it's. 
That's why I love discussion, I 

829
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,320
mean, and the image of the Aynor
singing together. 

830
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,120
I know I mentioned that in the 
beginning and and their voice is

831
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,840
becoming stronger and their 
their instruments. 

832
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,120
You know that the sound that 
they bring forth needs one 

833
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:05,080
another just as much as they 
need to know the song. 

834
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,440
The song doesn't even exist. 
Again, I know I keep coding 

835
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:12,000
Lewis, but going to his SEM 
membership, there are only 

836
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:17,720
colored things because of the 
light and you can't distinguish 

837
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:22,080
on a physics level red and green
unless red and green are both 

838
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:26,080
present. 
And so to see the kind of 

839
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:33,520
harmony within the way God and 
and in the story Aru has 

840
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:39,000
created, like the fabric of 
creation itself is just so 

841
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,040
exciting and beautiful. 
Yeah. 

842
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:45,240
It's like all the colors of the 
the of the church. 

843
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,640
Yeah. 
In terms of, you know, like a a 

844
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:50,240
beautiful bride. 
Hooray. 

845
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,560
Maybe fall glories. 
Yes. 

846
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:00,240
I love that. 
What does Living Hope look like 

847
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:05,240
for you? 
I think maybe I'll start with by

848
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:10,440
saying that I don't know, maybe 
the source of hope is very 

849
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,600
important. 
I've never thought of hope as 

850
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,320
no, that's not true. 
I've often when whenever I think

851
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:22,000
I am supposed to conjure up hope
on my and somehow I'm making it,

852
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:24,640
it usually doesn't turn out that
way. 

853
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:31,400
I feel that a lot of hope is 
something that we sense and feel

854
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:36,560
because something is almost like
throwing it at us. 

855
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,640
Like where is it coming from? 
Because it's not necessarily 

856
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,200
that you sat down and you 
thought about it for a while and

857
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,720
decided, of course, of course 
it's going to be better. 

858
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,000
And that might happen. 
But I, I don't think that's our 

859
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:55,520
source of where this comes from.
I don't think it is something we

860
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,640
can conjure. 
It is certainly something we can

861
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:04,520
hold on to, but I feel like it's
been thrown to us from from God.

862
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,400
Or grown. 
It's one of those things that. 

863
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:11,440
Come thrown to us. 
Grown, grown, GROWN. 

864
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:13,600
Yeah. 
I feel like when Scripture talks

865
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,760
about hope, often it's as a 
result of something. 

866
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,240
So, you know, like when in 
Romans it says that we rejoice 

867
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,840
in our sufferings and suffering 
produces endurance and endurance

868
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,160
character and character. 
Hope, like hope is the end fruit

869
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:30,520
of that. 
And I feel like, yeah, in in a 

870
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,160
lot of ways, the way that 
Scripture refers to it is it's 

871
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:37,360
something that it's not 
something that enters your life 

872
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,040
like a flash bang. 
It's more something that is that

873
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:45,280
must be organic, I think in some
ways anyway. 

874
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:48,240
So I. 
Think, no, but I, I really 

875
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:53,320
appreciate this because this 
helps me tie up these these two 

876
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,160
points. 
I was sitting here enjoying our 

877
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:59,080
conversation, but not really 
sure where Eluvatar's third 

878
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,600
theme comes in where he lifts up
his right hand and there's an 

879
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:07,920
immeasurable sorrow, but there's
beauty in that sorrow somehow. 

880
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:13,640
And it's this, this is truly the
strange theme because the the 

881
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:17,840
second one that he kind of 
stands up with his left hand is,

882
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:23,280
is like very, it says it's very 
similar to it's not unlike the 

883
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,440
first one. 
This third theme is strange. 

884
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,920
And I'm enjoying our 
conversation about living hope. 

885
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:32,880
But I, I'm questioning where 
does the immeasurable sorrow fit

886
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:34,440
in? 
What's the strange theme over 

887
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:35,320
here? 
We haven't mentioned? 

888
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:37,960
And Amy, I think you might have 
just hit on it. 

889
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:45,600
We endure sufferings only in a 
way that can produce 

890
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,200
perseverance into character, 
into hope. 

891
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:53,360
If we are suffering with Christ,
Christ changes what the 

892
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:59,160
suffering means for the normal 
Christian in their life as we 

893
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:03,600
experience what suffering is 
right, this lost, change, decay,

894
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,120
the not yet. 
And we have to hold on to this 

895
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:11,240
third theme because it can't. 
And I think this is your point, 

896
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:16,520
young one, and tell me if I'm 
wrong, We can't conjure up God's

897
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,240
third theme, you know, in in 
this story. 

898
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,880
And the way in which he can 
weave that into the redemption 

899
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:28,680
is something that is not of us. 
Yeah, no correction, I think. 

900
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:31,040
Yeah. 
Yes, I think so. 

901
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:36,600
I think that's why when, when 
the third theme, I think maybe 

902
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:39,640
what you're saying if, if I put 
it in different words, is that 

903
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:43,040
the 1st 2 themes about it's 
basically good and very good, 

904
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,960
whereas the third is and also 
it's redeemed. 

905
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:54,560
So if there's anything not good 
that got like our hope, like I 

906
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:58,480
said earlier, is, or I think 
we've all really been saying 

907
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:02,600
there is a redemption that makes
the hope. 

908
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,960
What hope is, it's not that it 
was perfect and therefore we 

909
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:08,640
hope it will continue to be 
perfect. 

910
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:10,840
That's usually not our hope at 
all. 

911
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:15,720
Our hope is usually something 
went wrong and we hope it will 

912
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,279
be better or we hope that it 
will be restored. 

913
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,399
And you see that in the story 
here. 

914
01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:27,920
But what's even more interesting
is that the restoration doesn't 

915
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,479
look like a simple destruction 
of what's bad. 

916
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:36,960
Like it's not simply destroy the
evil and good prevails, which is

917
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:42,080
not wrong of a story. 
But in this story, the evil has 

918
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:47,600
like, it's almost like the evil 
thinks that it is unique, that 

919
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:51,960
it it can go outside the bounds 
and create its own reality. 

920
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:58,080
But the the truth of the matter 
is, no, you're still confined to

921
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:02,840
the one in the story and it gets
folded into a harmony. 

922
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:08,040
And if we can think of that, 
it's a good way to think about 

923
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:13,160
the, the whatever sorrow and 
evil we have in our lives back 

924
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:15,640
to kind of like, how does this 
help us? 

925
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,600
Because then we can say we don't
need a total redo. 

926
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:24,640
We don't need a complete 
destruction and a complete new 

927
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,080
creation for for us to have 
hope. 

928
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:34,439
We can hope that our One knows 
how to fold all of the bad and 

929
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:36,479
create a harmony that's 
beautiful. 

930
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,680
And some of that beauty will be 
in the sorrow. 

931
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,760
Some of that will be in the 
wistfulness, in the nostalgia. 

932
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:48,680
So it won't always be just :) of
emojis everywhere. 

933
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,800
It would be something else. 
But it the fact that it's 

934
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,840
something else is what makes it 
even more beautiful in the story

935
01:09:55,840 --> 01:10:01,560
when it talks about like Water 
and how a lot of this, the echo 

936
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:07,040
of the music stays in the wall 
of this world, that's also very 

937
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:11,840
interesting because it's talking
about how like it gets pulled 

938
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,800
forward. 
The music that's pulled forward 

939
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:19,280
is not the perfect music of the 
first theme nor the second 

940
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:20,760
theme. 
The music that is pulled 

941
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:27,440
forward, that makes people feel 
both wistfulness and hope is the

942
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:32,840
third theme, which has the 
harmony of restoration built 

943
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:35,040
into it. 
I hope that makes sense. 

944
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:38,880
But that's kind of, I think 
where where we can see like kind

945
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:42,360
of the genius of this story. 
But it's a good reflection for 

946
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:45,040
me of how I can think about my 
hope today. 

947
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:50,960
The hope that I'm living today 
isn't like some kind of paradise

948
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,000
idealism where God doesn't know 
what evil is. 

949
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:57,640
That's not the hope I'm living 
in right now. 

950
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,440
The hope I'm living in, 
especially Christians today, is 

951
01:11:01,440 --> 01:11:05,600
is is a death of resurrection 
hope where the death was not 

952
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:09,200
fake, it was a real death. 
I was just thinking about how in

953
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:13,120
the theme of water, like when 
you listen to the ocean, like 

954
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:16,200
the ocean sounds, if you go to 
any kind of like app or 

955
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:20,200
something that's supposed to 
give you a relaxation, it kind 

956
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:22,760
of gives you this like imperfect
white noise. 

957
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:26,360
Because if you had perfect white
noise, it should be like a 

958
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,960
ticking clock or like a 
pendulum, like it should be 

959
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:36,960
exact, but perfect as in like 
very uniform, completely 

960
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:40,240
harmonious in that sense. 
But that's not really harmony 

961
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:44,520
because there's nothing being 
folded in and being restored. 

962
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:49,640
It is simply repeating something
that is very controlled. 

963
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:55,720
Whereas people like to listen to
waterfalls and rivers and oceans

964
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,720
and even rainfall, 
thunderstorms. 

965
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,160
Like all of these, like 
soundscape things that are found

966
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:07,240
in spas, are things that have 
some imperfection in it, As if 

967
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:10,960
like, our bodies know that 
that's a good thing. 

968
01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:15,560
Yeah, I I think on the theme of 
repetition, you've got me now 

969
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:19,760
thinking about. 
Well, in the I, I know Linda Lee

970
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:24,960
for one, when Melcor is bringing
his song and it says it was 

971
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,000
endlessly repeated, it kind of 
reminds me of a scene in 

972
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,360
Paralandra where Weston is has 
set out. 

973
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:33,600
I don't think it's Weston 
anymore. 

974
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:38,000
I think at that point he's on 
Weston, but when he's trying to 

975
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,960
torment Ransom and the thing 
that he just does throughout the

976
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:45,760
night, which is the pettiest 
thing but is the most irritating

977
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,560
to Ransom, is that he just sits 
there saying his name over and 

978
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:52,800
over and over again, right? 
And that's fascinating to me 

979
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:56,080
because then you think of the 
passage from Chesterton where 

980
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:59,240
where he talks about God 
exulting in what we would call 

981
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:01,960
monotonous. 
But he's using the example of 

982
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,480
like, have the sunrise again, 
have the sunset again, behold 

983
01:13:05,480 --> 01:13:09,200
those glories. 
But even that folds in a bit of 

984
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,480
variation, doesn't it? 
It's not like the same thing 

985
01:13:12,480 --> 01:13:16,680
over and over again done for 
ease or for emphasis or for to 

986
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:21,640
torment somebody. 
It is a delight that finds 

987
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:28,840
100,000 a million ways to exalt 
in this act, right of the rising

988
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,240
and setting of the sun. 
And and so I find that 

989
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:37,440
fascinating, that repetition 
yeah, it can be done for 

990
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:39,400
delight. 
It can be done for nefarious 

991
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,120
purposes. 
But when it's done right, we're 

992
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:46,240
invited into this thing that, 
like you're saying, I guess in 

993
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:50,640
its, in its essence, 
acknowledges, acknowledges 

994
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:55,840
brokenness, but then chooses to 
find the glory in it, in 

995
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:59,960
whatever act it is. 
We live in a world that has like

996
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,720
1 of the core thermodynamic 
principles is entropy. 

997
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:10,080
God could have, I think, made a 
world without one, just 

998
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:13,000
enthalpy. 
But like the it's the entropy 

999
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:17,240
that makes things interesting. 
And it it makes it so that it's 

1000
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:23,720
not like a, a boring repetition.
Yeah, that it is unique, even 

1001
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:27,560
when it looks like it's exactly 
the same, but it's not exactly 

1002
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:30,440
the same. 
And you can receive that. 

1003
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,840
You can receive entropy as 
things falling apart, which it 

1004
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,360
very well could be, but in a 
different way. 

1005
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:41,200
It's freedom to explore the 
properties of something. 

1006
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:45,840
I feel like if you have the 
opportunity to give variations 

1007
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:52,560
on a theme, that can be a gift. 
Young one, before we hit record,

1008
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:57,600
you made a comment about this 
creation story and how it felt a

1009
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:03,760
little removed from our creation
fall and redemption story 

1010
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:08,560
because this is all before we 
even get to the Earth Middle 

1011
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,280
Earth before we even get there. 
This is all happening 

1012
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:15,680
previously. 
I wonder though, with what you 

1013
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:20,400
guys are saying is if there's 
something beautiful and true 

1014
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:25,360
that we can see in the idol and 
delay in in our creation story 

1015
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:35,080
with the fact that like God 
gives us entropy and God gives 

1016
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:39,560
us the the dying leaves and God 
gives us the irregular 

1017
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:42,800
irregularity of the oceans and 
waterfalls. 

1018
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:48,440
And you could say he did that on
purpose, or you could say in a 

1019
01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:54,440
imaginative sense, like Eru, he 
wove together the imperfections 

1020
01:15:54,440 --> 01:15:58,880
and the way the things that 
might have been desired, like 

1021
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:02,520
intended for evil. 
He did. 

1022
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:06,960
He used it for our good. 
And it it reminds me of 

1023
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:13,520
Tolkien's kind of paraphrasing 
and contextualizing a part of 

1024
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:19,840
Ephesians when Eluvitar says 
that for Melkor, he that 

1025
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:25,240
attempts at altering the music 
in my despite shall prove but 

1026
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:30,760
mine instrument in the devising 
of things more wonderful, which 

1027
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:36,560
he himself hath not imagined. 
I think that that is a wonderful

1028
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,440
thing to dwell on as we move 
into the blanketing white 

1029
01:16:40,440 --> 01:16:44,480
silence of winter and we wrap up
this fall season. 

1030
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:47,520
Thank you guys. 
Do you have any glass closing 

1031
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,400
thoughts? 
This is a This is more of a 

1032
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:55,240
tangent than a closing thought, 
but I was reading an article 

1033
01:16:55,240 --> 01:17:00,760
today about how astronomers 
observe this bright event, 

1034
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:06,320
luminous flare, this collapsing 
of a star into a black hole. 

1035
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:11,840
But it but it produced such a 
bright luminescence that it 

1036
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:16,720
would be the equivalent of our 
sun burning until the end, like 

1037
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:22,120
from beginning to end times 
1000, like a single burst of 

1038
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:24,640
light. 
And the reason I bring that up 

1039
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:28,160
is because I thought of the 
story as I was reading this 

1040
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:32,560
article. 
If at the cosmic scale, somebody

1041
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,640
decided I'm going to ruin the 
star and throw it in a black 

1042
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:37,360
hole. 
And a black hole is a void, 

1043
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:39,120
right? 
In the in the sense like milk or

1044
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:42,920
loves the void. 
So he's trying to grow the void,

1045
01:17:43,480 --> 01:17:49,280
but even in that event you would
see an blinding beauty coming 

1046
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:52,800
out of it. 
Yeah, I love that. 

1047
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:56,800
So this is the beginning of 
Tolkien's, you know, the whole 

1048
01:17:56,800 --> 01:17:59,320
mythology. 
And I, I feel like it does 

1049
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:03,040
actually parallel quite nicely 
with ours because the story of 

1050
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:07,960
Lucifer, of Michael, of, you 
know, the whole heavenly battle 

1051
01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:10,920
happening, that was before we 
came on the scene, right? 

1052
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:14,280
The elves have their own fall 
in, in the mythology of Tolkien,

1053
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:16,760
the men have their own fall, 
although I don't think we're 

1054
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:20,160
told much about that. 
And then the fact that they're, 

1055
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:23,280
that each of these races is 
given their doom or their gift. 

1056
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:27,640
So men are given the gift of 
immortality and the elves are 

1057
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,240
given the gift of, I'm sorry, 
Men are given the gift of 

1058
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:32,880
mortality and elves are given 
the gift of immortality. 

1059
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,120
And then at the end of all 
things, and you see this 

1060
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:41,200
reprised in the trilogy, nobody 
really knows what happens after 

1061
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:45,600
time runs out. 
And so even beyond the end of 

1062
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:49,640
The Lord of the Rings, we know 
that some go to a peaceful rest 

1063
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:54,800
and and some have to wander in 
the woods and then take the doom

1064
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:58,320
that they have chosen. 
But a lot of it beyond that is 

1065
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:01,800
mystery, and nobody really knows
what Aru will do beyond the 

1066
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,640
circles of this world. 
But the way that it is alluded 

1067
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:10,600
to often in the tales is that 
it's not something to be dreaded

1068
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:14,600
necessarily. 
That there is maybe a freedom 

1069
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:18,600
and a beauty and a glory beyond 
everything that we have known 

1070
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:22,760
that perhaps will answer to the 
depth of the suffering and the 

1071
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:25,040
pain and the grief that we've 
had to go through too. 

1072
01:19:25,440 --> 01:19:30,320
So so I love that he he seems to
have covered many bases. 

1073
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:34,120
The good professor. 
Thank you for that, Amy and 

1074
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:36,760
young One. 
This has been a delightful 

1075
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:40,400
conversation. 
Thank you, Professor Tolkien, 

1076
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:44,760
for giving us wonderful fodder 
to consider as we close this 

1077
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:46,840
fall season and move into 
winter. 

1078
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:50,840
The Imagination Redeemed podcast
is a production of the Anselm 

1079
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:53,040
Society. 
It's easy to see this world as 

1080
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:55,640
disenchanted and to give up hope
that there's more. 

1081
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,040
But you were made to see the 
world with the eyes of heaven 

1082
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:02,400
and to live a bountiful life 
that participates in the life of

1083
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:06,440
God, like in the great stories. 
To help make the show possible, 

1084
01:20:06,440 --> 01:20:12,000
go to anselmsociety.org/podcast 
25 and make a donation. 

1085
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:15,720
The Anselm Society is a place 
where you can come in and 

1086
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:20,440
experience that beauty, joyful 
celebration, and ancient wisdom 

1087
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,560
and go out renewed, bringing 
that life to your vocation, 

1088
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:28,400
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Learn more at anselmsociety.org 

1089
01:20:28,440 --> 01:20:31,360
and join us next time as we 
pursue a renaissance of the 

1090
01:20:31,360 --> 01:20:32,960
Christian imagination together.