The season of winter can be full of darkness, cold, and waiting.
Winter creates limits. The days are shorter, we're
stuck inside, and the sun itself, or at least it's warmth,
is elusive. Often that we can be even closed
off in our own minds. As the dark and cold work their
way inward, we're made keenly aware of our longing for
restoration. But the story doesn't end there.
The limits aren't just a challenge, they're an
opportunity. It is into the midst of the
world's limitations that the God of the universe comes after
months of darkness in a womb. God is not afraid of
constriction. Beginning on that one unique
dark night. He instead works within time and
space, offers us an invitation to participate.
With him we can embody godly generosity and joviality as a
community full of hope precisely in the time and space allotted
to us. Not in one grand gesture, but in
the habitual creation of concentrated warmth and cheer,
in making rich food and hot drinks and telling stories and
lingering as we see each other more fully in long conversations
by the fire. This is a poignant picture of
the life of the church. While we see darkness and cold
all around us, with our redeemed imaginations, we can live in
intentional defiance of them, as God in the flesh did.
Our winter content will focus on this theme, the reality of God
in the flesh and what that means, with a calendar full of
warmth, cheer and hope. Because our Lord is found with
us in our limitations. Welcome to the Imagination
Redeemed podcast, where we follow the great stories further
up and further in in pursuit of the life of Christ.
Welcome to Imagination Redeemed everyone.
I'm Brian Brown at joined as usual by Sarah Howell.
Hi, Sarah. Hi, Brian.
Good to see you. We're going to have some fun
because today is our second seasonal kick off.
We started doing this episode last season and it's a chance
for us to give you guys a little preview into what's coming up
because as I have just indicated, our, our winter
season transcends a, a pretty interesting array of, of church
holidays. We've got in the season Advent
and we've got Christmas and we've got Epiphany, which is a
little bit lesser known among some of you.
And then we've got this little awkward dark lull in January,
which is sort of that, that time when we're all depressed after
Christmas and it's the darkest time of the year.
And there isn't really anything going on.
And then Easter and 2026 is pretty early, which means Lent
starts early. So our next, our three month
season, December, January, February is actually going to
literally encompass at least parts of Advent all the way
through Lent. So while we have this one of the
best holidays of the church year in the middle of it, we're also
both in terms of the weather and in terms of the season itself
hitting this season of kind of two different seasons rather of
darkness and fasting and whatnot.
So Sarah, we we started talking about what we wanted to do with
the season and we thought, let's talk about cheerful things.
So let's talk about cheerful things.
So I piped in and said. Let's talk about our
limitations. Because let's get all
philosophical about this. But but in all, in all
seriousness, you did a really, really nice job kind of driving
us through the the planning process for this.
Because it's such a beautiful opportunity both as we reflect
at the beginning of the season on the limits that God took on
when he at the incarnation, but also there's so much that we can
draw from as we confront our own limits in the face of God's
abundance. It's one of those things where
there's so much truth in old sayings and proverbs and old
wives tales and all these things that we've heard from people
since we were five but have shrugged off since we were five.
There's, there are a lot of those things where you, you, you
just kind of have to go through life.
And then at some point, like you're ready, as Lewis said, to
start reading fairy tales again. And you realize how that old
saying from 10/20/40 years ago has so much truth in it.
And you're, it's like your heart is ready for it.
And then yeah, at at the same time we've just wrapped up Four
Seasons, 4 calendar seasons, which added up to Season 4 of
Imagination Redeemed and to some extent that's an artificial line
in the sand. But hey, we are drawing that
artificial line in the sand because we've got a year of the
new format under our belts. We've got a fantastic revolving
door of regular guests and first time guests and we're ready for
Season 5. And just to give our listeners a
bit of a preview, we are in this next year, in 2026, working to
integrate what we do here on the podcast with the rest of
Anselm's programming for a few reasons.
One is efficiency. We'd love to be able to put less
work into more value. But another is for, for those of
you who live in Colorado Springs and can be participants face to
face in our relational community and our gatherings, we want this
podcast to be kind of an above and beyond thing that adds
richness and depth and sustained, sometimes teaching,
but often just conversation and exploration of, of themes.
And, and you guys will will see that with our our next episode,
which we'll tease in a moment. But also it's a chance for those
of you who are not local to Colorado Springs to get more,
well, not just get more glimpses into our events, but enjoy them
a bit more. We're going to try to get better
at this storytelling that we do on the show doing.
We do that at our events anyway. So we're going to try to get
better at those kinds of recordings, those kinds of
moments, capturing them and sharing them on the podcast.
So there's kind of a two way dialogue between what we do face
to face and then what we do online.
So if if you can enjoy both, they complement each other
better and if you can only enjoy one, IE the the non local, this
it's it's deeper and richer and equips you and empowers you
better. So having said all of that,
Sarah, what drew you to this theme?
Limits and constriction and opportunity in the face of that,
or maybe even because of that, what drew you to that?
Yeah, I mean, you were talking earlier, Brian.
We were about about the church calendar and, and honestly, it
was thinking about how Christmas is sandwiched between these two
really dark. What I often experience is
painful times in the church calendar, the time of
expectation and the longing and then this beautiful Christmas
moment. And then we go back into what
feels like the darkness all around us and Lent as we wait
for Easter. And so being at the at the heart
of that, that was Christ at the heart of the feast is, is his
incarnation. And I'm a new mom.
So the scandal of incarnation feels a a little bit more real
as I've gone through a lived experience of, of birth and of
taking care of a new life and to think about the God of the
universe coming down and partaking and, and being with
us. The the scandal of, of our human
limitations and our bodily limitations.
What I'm primarily thought of before I wrote up the theme was
John Updike's poem, 7 stanzas as Easter, actually, because you
know, the, the end of Christ's life is him on the cross and
ultimately his resurrection. And so if I could read a bit of
that poem, John starts the poem with this.
Make no mistake, if he rose at all, it was as his body.
If the cell's disillusion did not reverse, the molecule re
knit, the amino acids rekindle, the church will fall.
And he goes on and to say things like the same hinged thumbs and
toes, the same valved heart. Then later, let us not mock God
with metaphor, analogy, sidestepping, transcendence,
making of the event a parable. And I just love how poignantly
he puts together how uncomfortable I am with my own
limitations. But if I'm uncomfortable with
mine, my hinged thumbs, my toes, I have to reckon with Jesus
having hinged thumbs and toes as well.
And So what better place to start for me in in the midst of
these two bread slices, the the true meat of of the season,
which is Jesus himself. Well said, and thanks for
sharing that poem. I'm going to I'm going to look
it up and read the whole thing afterwards because that's there
were even even in the bits that you read, there were parts where
I was thinking, oh, that's so insightful and beautiful.
And there are parts where I was going, wait, what?
As as as a good poem should do. Yes.
Yeah. The other thing I would, I would
add to that in terms of my, my interest and excitement in this
is I feel like there are so many of us, whether you think of us
as totally unique individuals or as demographic subgroups, kind
of anywhere you draw the line, there is so much of modern life.
And by modern life, I just mean right now that we experience as
limits. We're always having, whether
we're thinking about our jobs and all of their limitations and
all the things we don't like about them and our manager and
all that sort of thing. There are so many things about
growing up, adulthood, marriage, parenting, you know, pick a
phase that we experience as limits.
And there's a lot of modern life that takes a lot of the good
things, scripturally speaking, and wants us to understand them
as limits, right? Since since the fall, since the
garden, so many good things are presented as surely God wouldn't
want to hold that back from you. Surely he wouldn't want to limit
you to that thing. And you can almost pick, you
know, read the news and pick an angry group, pick a group that's
feeling disaffected. And so much of it is because
they feel disenfranchised. So much of it is because they
feel like I can't win in what is in front of me.
And they all have their own version of who the bad guy is in
that situation. But not, not many of them and
not not many of the voices that they hear meet them in those
limitations and say yes. But yes, most of them just want
to kind of feed the frustration and, and, and weaponize it in
some way, right? And I'm glad you brought that up
because I, I was also seeing this season and, and these
questions we're bringing up fundamentally asking questions
about power and freedom. And I'd I think that it's
important even if I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase
research is me search. No, Yeah, but like the the
things that in in the academic world or yeah, I guess in the
academic world it's I'll, I'll say that over in the academic
world, I there's this that phrase research is research
because often what you end up wanting to explore are things
that you actually desperately need to know the answers for.
And I feel like that is this theme for me in a lot of ways
too, because fundamentally that we need to parse the difference
between what is a limitation that has come by the fall.
I think a chronic illness could be an example of a bodily
limitation, that it wasn't intended by God's design.
However, there are also these other kinds of limitations,
Brian, like you're mentioning that we want to see as negative,
whereas I think what's going on there is we have a poor
conception of what true freedom is.
Yeah, it isn't lack of restriction on my will to get
whatever I want. But even there, I I've had so
many conversations, I think particularly in political
contexts where someone immediately responds to that
with, you know, you're just trying to keep me down or like
the patriarchy or something, right, like that.
Whatever your attempt to say, limits can be freeing.
Wow, that's just exactly what you would say.
So we want to be able to explore this concept both through some
theological lenses and through some practical lenses, the kinds
of situations that we find ourselves in.
And so each of the episodes that we are laying with, each one is,
is both something that you would feel in winter, but it's also
something you would experience metaphorically speaking.
So case in point, we're going to sneak out really quickly just a
few days after this episode. December 6th is the feast day of
Saint Nicholas. And we thought that was a
perfect opportunity to do something that I, in my
strangeness, have wanted to talk about for a long time, which is
joviality. And so we're going to talk about
the constriction of time. And all of our listeners just
heard those two things and they're already thinking, A,
what did you mean by joviality? And B, what does that have to do
with time? So we're going to talk about the
legend of Saint Nicholas, but we're going to also talk about
some very challenging questions related to what what it looks
like to, to practice joy, to inhabit this thing we call joy.
Because there is a, a lost art in there, a lost virtue in
there. In the space between me not
feeling joyful and this thing I want to have called joy.
Something like we can just pray for there's an actual art,
there's an actual skill that we can learn in the face of that.
And so we are going to be joined by new friends, Joffrey Swait,
who I met fairly recently, and we're going to have a lovely
conversation about joviality and hopefully laugh a whole bunch.
And I think, Brian, I'm so excited that we get to focus on
your research triviality. But also, I think it's just at
the proper time. I mean, maybe that's why Saint
Nicholas matters so much to us during that Christmas Advent
season, because it's at the fullness of time that Christ
came. But also it matters to our lived
experience of the month of December because I feel like
there is so much demanded of us during that time.
There's these big gaps for us in terms of forcing things into
schedules that don't fit and having an expectation from
people that this is a time to reflect and be somber.
And yet where does that fit? And yet there's also this
expectation that we should have joy and be happy and be a part.
Of. It's it's Christmas exactly, but
somehow both are hard to come by in the season.
And so I found even just in talking to you a little bit
about why joviality matters, it it was hitting my soul for where
I actually am right now this December, and giving the actual
practical kind of footholds to figure out how to be in this
weird December moment where you are asked to be a part of a time
that we don't really even understand ourselves yet.
What does it mean to practice Advent appropriately?
What does it mean to have joy and to practice being joyful at
Christmas? Without just trying Harder
stupid, which is kind of our default when we hit December and
Mariah Carey is assaulting our senses at every store that we
enter and we're watching Christmas movies that sort of
beat us over the head with how happy we're supposed to feel.
And unless we're in a very particular place in life, often
it's quite difficult. And Try Harder.
Stupid can't be the answer because it never works.
OK, so we'll get through joviality.
We've talked, we've explored at this point the constriction of
time. Then we're going to hit January
and we're going to consider the constriction of means because
hey, we've just gotten through Christmas and we got a bunch of
presents. But also we're broke again
because we just bought everybody presents and bought food we
don't normally get and had out of town guests and whatever the
case may be. And so that we thought they, the
constriction of means, the experience of whether it's stuff
or whether it's just emotional bandwidth, just I've got nothing
left to give. What does generosity look like
in that context? And I actually should call this
out. I didn't even notice this until
10 minutes before he started recording Sarah.
But all of our stories this season, our Middle Eastern,
Eastern Europe based. So we're going East to explore
these questions related to the incarnation, which seems
appropriate somehow. Right.
Moving towards our culture, though, our cultural moment,
Something that I find interesting too about thinking
about our means, especially in January is how while that's the
time we feel the most tapped out, maybe financially, maybe
emotionally, physically, all three.
It's also the time our culture wants us to take kind of the,
the needle and throttle things even further with this new start
mantra of New Year's resolutions, the new gym
membership, Also our desire to kind of clamp down and control
our lives after the craziness of the holidays, right?
There's this almost idealism about our means.
And yet we actually have the least amount of capacity also in
January, not to mention literally the energy from the
sun. We don't have very much at that
time either. And so there's this tension of
what does it mean to better ourselves to to move towards
generosity? But not out of our own supply,
but through participation in the life of God through the church
and looking at different sources.
And so I'm excited about talking about that because it does seem
so otherworldly. Yeah.
So we're going to go to Tolstoy for that one.
Yeah, So January, what does it look like to actually feel like
we can afford to be generous? What if?
What could happen that could possibly nudge my mental,
emotional, spiritual needle into that place again?
Absent, try harder, stupid. And then we're going to blink
and it's going to be lent and we're going to consider the
constriction of space, which hey, some of us will experience
already in December without of found guests and things like
that. But winter in general tends to
kind of drive us indoors. And I, we, we have radiator
heating and I in half the house and like very little heating,
like inadequate heating in the rest of the house.
So I feel like in winter I'm always sort of trapped in the
sauna on the one hand or the icebox in the other.
On a metaphorical level, I also do see Lent as kind of
claustrophobic because no matter how hard you try to run away
from, you know, the deep, deep corners of yourself, no matter
how hard you try to like start the new me in January, you end
up around February. And when you use, if you do
practice any form of Lent where you start reflecting on and
preparing yourself for Christ's crucifixion, I find that to be a
claustrophobic experience. It's like, oh, there's not
enough space. I can't get away.
I'm stuck here. I'm still here.
It's still the same thing. There's a monotony, I think, to
a lack of space. Even getting to even more
philosophically these concepts of freedom, right?
Like if we have a notion of freedom which is boundless, then
the constriction of space is the most stressful to us, right?
So I'm excited to kind of think about those concepts too, when
we think about literal space. Yeah, well, so did you, Did your
family do much with Lent growing up or is that more of an adult
discovery for you? It's more an adult discovery.
OK, same. OK, Yep.
So we'll have some fun with that, whether you as our
listeners are in a church that does a lot with lents to prepare
for Easter or not. This is going to be a fun one.
And we get to talk about one of my favorite books by a living
author, which is A Gentleman in Moscow, which is going to be
awesome. If I could say a note about all
three of these, Brian, I think that all of these are exciting
to handle within the season. We've given them December,
January and February because these are hardest to engage at
these times, right? And so that's when we.
Want to? We're hitting ourselves in our
weak points. Exactly, exactly.
We're not talking about the the, the constriction of space when
it's summer and there seems to be endless time on the calendar
for us to move about and move around and everyone is starting
about outside, right? We're talking about it when we
just can't handle being inside one more day and then the snow
falls again. I know I'll.
Turn on a podcast that tells me I should I should just not be
like that. Right.
Oh boy. So I mean, we have a big
responsibility here, not to say try harder stupid, but I think
if I could bring in the some, some beautiful things from the
tradition of of virtue ethics. There's a concept in virtue
ethics that you don't know if you have a virtue until you have
to put it into practice, but you also don't really have the
virtue until you put it into practice.
So the paradigmatic case is courage.
You can't be courageous until you are doing something that is
courageous, so to speak. But also, how then do you, how
then are you going to be the kind of person who can step
forward and be courageous if you haven't practiced it?
So there's this sort of paradoxical conundrum where you
have to make little efforts with these little, little practices
so that you kind of can become the kind of person who can make
the big effort, like do the thing and, and do it in a way
that it just comes naturally to some degree, right?
It's, it's the you must you, you couldn't think of anything else
but do that thing which happened to be courageous.
And I'd like to think about these constrictions within
helping us practice the virtue of magnanimity.
Have you, have you thought a little bit about that one?
It's kind of a goodness. It's a very misunderstood and
very lost virtue. Yes, weirdly, yes, I, so I had a
when I was studying theology after college, I had a mentor
who was very big on magnanimity. And.
OK, so it in, in the sort of the kingly virtues in general, I
think are including joviality is one of them, which is what we're
going to kick off with next week.
The yeah, the, the, the sort of kingly virtues in general, I
think are, are neglected a bit to the point where, yeah, we
just said that word and probably most of our listeners are would
not respond the way I did when you asked it.
And they they're thinking what even I have a vague idea of what
that is, but only the vaguest idea.
So, so there's definitely going to be a sense of recovering some
lost virtues in this conversation.
We want to be able to give you, our listeners, some some tools
that you may or may not have grown up with.
In many cases, we may not, may or may not have grown up with,
but that are available in a 2000 year old religion.
Right. And if I could give a little
anger that my daughter's namesake actually gave me about
what this virtue is at first, at first glance, it's also helpful
to know that from the Latin Magnus that is great and animus
is soul. So we're talking about someone
who has great is greatly sold it like has a.
And so you might say like, what does that even mean?
But the anchor that my dear Elena Berry told me is that it's
kind of easier to think about this within the image of
Tolkien's story and how he writes about.
Everything is. But we have these little hobbits
who are asked to do something that is too big for them.
I mean, they have to step into these shoes before they actually
fit for this great journey that they have to partake, right?
And so you need to practice in order to have it.
And at the end, the King of Men bow down to them.
And so the question that I have when we think about the
constriction of time is like, how do we become the kind of
people who have great souls? And paradoxically, I think it's
interesting to consider how God uses the constrictions of our
lives to bring us the invitation to step into shoes that are too
big for us and, and to image Jesus who did that himself,
right? And to have him as our as our
exemplar as well as the hobbits, because you always need, you
always need a Hobbit as your exemplar.
Yeah. And in general, the the you
leading into that with with Tolkien just is, is a great
connection point. And this whole season is going
to be a great connection point with our larger idea at Anselm
that part of how your soul is formed and ought to be formed is
through the great stories and dialogue with the great stories,
both in a in a sort of chronological Chronos Cairo's
time sense inhabiting the larger meta narrative of of scripture
and of God, but also in the sense that these these small
stories, they don't they don't just teach us something in a
take away, a sort of sense. They, they form our souls.
Have you have you ever heard the this is This is neither here nor
there, but it's hilarious if you ever heard the quote about Lord
of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. No.
It's oh, gosh. OK, so it's this absolutely
brutal quote from John Rogers, but I love it.
I told it to a group of high schoolers recently, and there
was just dead silence. Nobody laughed because nobody
got the joke. But if you But if you deal it to
the right audience and listeners, I'm hoping most of
you are among them. But in the comments whether you
are or not. Yes, so the the quote goes like
this. There are two novels that can
change a bookish 14 year old's life.
The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged 1 is a childish fantasy
that often engenders A lifelong obsession with its unbelievable
heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially
crippled adulthood unable to deal with the real world.
The other, of course, involves orcs, which, as someone who
hates Alice Shrunk I, I think is just hilarious.
That's wonderful. Well, but, but I think it the
reason why that's so funny is because I think, at least for
you and I, we've experienced what kind of life comes from an
imagination focused on seeing everything as pragmatic and
everyone as kind of out to get you and that you're really the
only one you can depend on. I think that like that is the
kind of life you have when your imagination is malformed by a by
a story like Atlas Drug that like truly your limitations are
your enemy. And I do think to your point,
stories are not just propositional content that have
a good moral at the end, but it's actually letting us inhabit
with different eyes a world that can hold hope so.
And the reason that so many stories like Lord of the Rings
is a good example of that, of a story that means so much to so
many people, because it's sort of it gives them that whole
world all together. Not just not in the sense of
Middle Earth, but in the sense of this this story world
inhabited by the Christian ethos, by a a more complex
explanation of the nature of of right and wrong and nobility and
courage and sacrifice and loyalty and goodness.
And, but, but so much of what we have sought to build as the
ENSEM society and continue to to seek to build is that that story
came from somewhere. It's wonderful that that's the
story. Or there are others, of course,
that that have meant so much to you and that have brought you
into this larger world. But there is in fact, that
larger world. Lord of the Rings is not the
larger world. The Lord of the Rings is your
gateway into what did, what did Tolkien read that that made him
like this, that allowed him to write a story like this.
And so, so much of what we want to get into is that larger world
and all of the stories that are the the, the tapestry of that
world. Side note, points to you for
that incredibly skillful transition from my goofy quote
and Atlas Shrugged to the larger limitations theme.
I, I, I, if I, if I were wearing a cap, I would tip my cap to
you. That was extremely well done.
Fine, OK, so we, as we wrap up, Oh, and by the way, listeners,
if you were wondering why are these two people so down on Iron
Rand and Atlas Shrugged, drop a note in the comments and we
would be happy to fill you in. So Sarah, any, any final
thoughts? So we're going to get into these
episodes. Joviality, construction of time,
generosity, construction of means, warmth, construction of
space. We're going to explore stories
and explore aspects of the Christian tradition that can
equip us to become deeper and wiser and more stable and more
beautiful and more good people, more conformed to the image of
Christ. Not just by trying harder,
Stupid. Any final thoughts before we
sign off for the day and jump into the actual episodes next
week? Yeah, I actually I have some
thoughts from a question you prompted a couple a couple weeks
back when we were discussing this theme.
Brian and I want to hear your the answer to your own question
you asked a while ago. What do you hope that we feel by
the end of the season? Not just understand
intellectually, but actually feel.
Can we just pause and appreciate how much emotional maturity I've
I've accumulated in 40 years to allow me to, to ask a question
like that? Mister Mr. Left Brained, I know
you go first. I'll jump in next.
Yeah. And and maybe this will, this
will show my cards of how much more emotional maturing I have
to do because I couldn't think of a specific emotion, but I
could think of an image for myself and for others.
I want myself as well As for others to be able to smile a
little bit more when they run into their limitation.
And, and the image that I have is for some of us, that might be
like a tiny uptick of our metaphorical or literal mouths.
But the, the image that I had was I as a kid remember being
really grumpy or, you know, having my own sort of temper
tantrum, depending on how age appropriate was at the time to
do so. But I remember a couple of my
family members being able to kind of draw me out of it a
little bit through their joy and through cracking jokes to make
me feel better. But I distinctly remember that
that experience of feeling and staying kind of grumpy
externally, but some of their joys kind of sloughing off onto
me and they're being a little uptick of, you know, the the
corners of my mouth smiling. And and and I say it that way.
And that's my desire. Maybe because we need to spend
more time thinking about hope. And that is maybe a poor
expectation to have, but also because I think there is such a
weight that comes to our limitations.
Some of us have chronic illnesses.
A lot of what comes from the true tension points of the
limitations that matter to us matter because they feel like
they are the places where we feel excluded.
And and so this is this is a hard, this is a hard thing.
We're trying to to engage the season.
And, and I want to be mindful of that for my own heart, but also
for the hearts of others that I, I really do desire for the Lord
to come in and show us that our limitations can't on the whole,
is what it means to be a creature.
And that our limits that are designed by God are the gift of
particularity is the gift of me, Sarah being me, Sarah, not
someone else. But they also come at great
costs and they come with the weight of the brokenness of this
world. So.
So we're going to tackle original sin.
No biggie. That's really interesting.
I love that. I love that.
The same group of high schoolers that I've mentioned earlier, I
asked them all they're about for 35 of them, I asked each of them
what the big, the big question was they were wrestling with
right now. And about a third of them said
the problem of evil. The other 2/3 were a bunch of
random things. But the the, the most common
answer by far was the problem of evil.
And a lot of that had come from experiences of grief in in their
own life. So I love the thought that we
could make a dent in that that question.
But also, yeah, limitations as a as a created thing and not just
limitations in the sense of of post lapsarian limitations to
fall limit limitations. I guess I would I would probably
how would I hope to feel at the end of this?
This definitely falls into the category of me search.
But I think if we do our job right, if, if God speaks through
us in these episodes, us and our guests, I would hope that our
listeners and me personally at the end of each episode and at
the end of the season feel a greater sense of divine
abundance because each if if there's a through line in the
the secret answer or key to each of these challenges, joviality,
generosity and warmth, it's that it's not, it's it's encountering
divine abundance in our limitations.
And I think I've heard too many sermons or podcasts that are an
attempt to deal with limitations by shrugging them off and
preaching the divine abundance. But what does it mean to
actually encounter the divine abundance in our limitations?
Not just sort of pretend they don't exist or don't matter?
Because boy, if you get me in a situation where I have a pulled
hamstring and a short night of sleep and something I'm stressed
out about that's coming up and something that's, you know,
triggering some anxiety about something or other.
And you, you put all of that into my mind and my body and
then put me, give me an actual practical concrete right in
front of me challenge to handle. If I'm doing well, I can do
joviality pretty well. Like I have a pretty natural
twinkle to my eye. Well, that goes out real fast in
the face of the right set of circumstances and.
As I grow, as I get more mature, that becomes less the case.
But it's a slow journey for me and I know I'm not alone in
that, whether it's with that virtue or with something else.
So for me, abundance. That's awesome.
That's awesome and that that really articulates better than I
could ever so far have put please.
What are you? What are you smiling at, though,
Sarah? You know, like I want people to
smile at their limitation, but why would you smile?
And I, and I think that that's exactly what you're talking
about. There is this acknowledgement
that there is something here. It's not just a lack.
And so to kind of unpack that more is is our goal and I'm
excited to explore with you, Brian.
Likewise, let's do it. Well, listeners, we will see you
next week to talk about joviality with Joffrey Swaid,
and we're going to have a jovial time together.
See You then. The Imagination Redeemed podcast
is a production of the Anselm Society.
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that there's more. But you were made to see the
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