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The season of winter can be full
of darkness, cold, and waiting. 

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Winter creates limits. 
The days are shorter, we're 

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stuck inside, and the sun 
itself, or at least it's warmth,

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is elusive. 
Often that we can be even closed

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off in our own minds. 
As the dark and cold work their 

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way inward, we're made keenly 
aware of our longing for 

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restoration. 
But the story doesn't end there.

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The limits aren't just a 
challenge, they're an 

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opportunity. 
It is into the midst of the 

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world's limitations that the God
of the universe comes after 

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months of darkness in a womb. 
God is not afraid of 

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constriction. 
Beginning on that one unique 

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dark night. 
He instead works within time and

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space, offers us an invitation 
to participate. 

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With him we can embody godly 
generosity and joviality as a 

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community full of hope precisely
in the time and space allotted 

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to us. 
Not in one grand gesture, but in

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the habitual creation of 
concentrated warmth and cheer, 

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in making rich food and hot 
drinks and telling stories and 

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lingering as we see each other 
more fully in long conversations

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by the fire. 
This is a poignant picture of 

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the life of the church. 
While we see darkness and cold 

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all around us, with our redeemed
imaginations, we can live in 

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intentional defiance of them, as
God in the flesh did. 

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Our winter content will focus on
this theme, the reality of God 

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in the flesh and what that 
means, with a calendar full of 

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warmth, cheer and hope. 
Because our Lord is found with 

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us in our limitations. 
Welcome to the Imagination 

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Redeemed podcast, where we 
follow the great stories further

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up and further in in pursuit of 
the life of Christ. 

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Welcome to Imagination Redeemed 
everyone. 

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I'm Brian Brown at joined as 
usual by Sarah Howell. 

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Hi, Sarah. 
Hi, Brian. 

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Good to see you. 
We're going to have some fun 

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because today is our second 
seasonal kick off. 

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We started doing this episode 
last season and it's a chance 

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for us to give you guys a little
preview into what's coming up 

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because as I have just 
indicated, our, our winter 

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season transcends a, a pretty 
interesting array of, of church 

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holidays. 
We've got in the season Advent 

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and we've got Christmas and 
we've got Epiphany, which is a 

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little bit lesser known among 
some of you. 

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And then we've got this little 
awkward dark lull in January, 

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which is sort of that, that time
when we're all depressed after 

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Christmas and it's the darkest 
time of the year. 

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And there isn't really anything 
going on. 

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And then Easter and 2026 is 
pretty early, which means Lent 

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starts early. 
So our next, our three month 

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season, December, January, 
February is actually going to 

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literally encompass at least 
parts of Advent all the way 

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through Lent. 
So while we have this one of the

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best holidays of the church year
in the middle of it, we're also 

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both in terms of the weather and
in terms of the season itself 

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hitting this season of kind of 
two different seasons rather of 

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darkness and fasting and 
whatnot. 

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So Sarah, we we started talking 
about what we wanted to do with 

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the season and we thought, let's
talk about cheerful things. 

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So let's talk about cheerful 
things. 

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So I piped in and said. 
Let's talk about our 

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limitations. 
Because let's get all 

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philosophical about this. 
But but in all, in all 

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seriousness, you did a really, 
really nice job kind of driving 

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us through the the planning 
process for this. 

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Because it's such a beautiful 
opportunity both as we reflect 

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at the beginning of the season 
on the limits that God took on 

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when he at the incarnation, but 
also there's so much that we can

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draw from as we confront our own
limits in the face of God's 

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abundance. 
It's one of those things where 

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there's so much truth in old 
sayings and proverbs and old 

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wives tales and all these things
that we've heard from people 

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since we were five but have 
shrugged off since we were five.

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There's, there are a lot of 
those things where you, you, you

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just kind of have to go through 
life. 

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And then at some point, like 
you're ready, as Lewis said, to 

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start reading fairy tales again.
And you realize how that old 

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saying from 10/20/40 years ago 
has so much truth in it. 

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And you're, it's like your heart
is ready for it. 

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And then yeah, at at the same 
time we've just wrapped up Four 

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Seasons, 4 calendar seasons, 
which added up to Season 4 of 

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Imagination Redeemed and to some
extent that's an artificial line

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in the sand. 
But hey, we are drawing that 

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artificial line in the sand 
because we've got a year of the 

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new format under our belts. 
We've got a fantastic revolving 

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door of regular guests and first
time guests and we're ready for 

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Season 5. 
And just to give our listeners a

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bit of a preview, we are in this
next year, in 2026, working to 

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integrate what we do here on the
podcast with the rest of 

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Anselm's programming for a few 
reasons. 

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One is efficiency. 
We'd love to be able to put less

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work into more value. 
But another is for, for those of

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you who live in Colorado Springs
and can be participants face to 

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face in our relational community
and our gatherings, we want this

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podcast to be kind of an above 
and beyond thing that adds 

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richness and depth and 
sustained, sometimes teaching, 

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but often just conversation and 
exploration of, of themes. 

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And, and you guys will will see 
that with our our next episode, 

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which we'll tease in a moment. 
But also it's a chance for those

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of you who are not local to 
Colorado Springs to get more, 

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well, not just get more glimpses
into our events, but enjoy them 

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a bit more. 
We're going to try to get better

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at this storytelling that we do 
on the show doing. 

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We do that at our events anyway.
So we're going to try to get 

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better at those kinds of 
recordings, those kinds of 

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moments, capturing them and 
sharing them on the podcast. 

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So there's kind of a two way 
dialogue between what we do face

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to face and then what we do 
online. 

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So if if you can enjoy both, 
they complement each other 

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better and if you can only enjoy
one, IE the the non local, this 

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it's it's deeper and richer and 
equips you and empowers you 

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better. 
So having said all of that, 

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Sarah, what drew you to this 
theme? 

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Limits and constriction and 
opportunity in the face of that,

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or maybe even because of that, 
what drew you to that? 

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Yeah, I mean, you were talking 
earlier, Brian. 

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We were about about the church 
calendar and, and honestly, it 

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was thinking about how Christmas
is sandwiched between these two 

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really dark. 
What I often experience is 

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painful times in the church 
calendar, the time of 

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expectation and the longing and 
then this beautiful Christmas 

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moment. 
And then we go back into what 

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feels like the darkness all 
around us and Lent as we wait 

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for Easter. 
And so being at the at the heart

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of that, that was Christ at the 
heart of the feast is, is his 

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incarnation. 
And I'm a new mom. 

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So the scandal of incarnation 
feels a a little bit more real 

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as I've gone through a lived 
experience of, of birth and of 

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taking care of a new life and to
think about the God of the 

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universe coming down and 
partaking and, and being with 

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us. 
The the scandal of, of our human

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limitations and our bodily 
limitations. 

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What I'm primarily thought of 
before I wrote up the theme was 

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John Updike's poem, 7 stanzas as
Easter, actually, because you 

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know, the, the end of Christ's 
life is him on the cross and 

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ultimately his resurrection. 
And so if I could read a bit of 

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that poem, John starts the poem 
with this. 

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Make no mistake, if he rose at 
all, it was as his body. 

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If the cell's disillusion did 
not reverse, the molecule re 

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knit, the amino acids rekindle, 
the church will fall. 

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And he goes on and to say things
like the same hinged thumbs and 

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toes, the same valved heart. 
Then later, let us not mock God 

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with metaphor, analogy, 
sidestepping, transcendence, 

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making of the event a parable. 
And I just love how poignantly 

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he puts together how 
uncomfortable I am with my own 

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limitations. 
But if I'm uncomfortable with 

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mine, my hinged thumbs, my toes,
I have to reckon with Jesus 

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having hinged thumbs and toes as
well. 

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And So what better place to 
start for me in in the midst of 

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these two bread slices, the the 
true meat of of the season, 

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which is Jesus himself. 
Well said, and thanks for 

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sharing that poem. 
I'm going to I'm going to look 

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it up and read the whole thing 
afterwards because that's there 

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were even even in the bits that 
you read, there were parts where

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I was thinking, oh, that's so 
insightful and beautiful. 

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And there are parts where I was 
going, wait, what? 

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As as as a good poem should do. 
Yes. 

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Yeah. 
The other thing I would, I would

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add to that in terms of my, my 
interest and excitement in this 

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is I feel like there are so many
of us, whether you think of us 

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as totally unique individuals or
as demographic subgroups, kind 

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of anywhere you draw the line, 
there is so much of modern life.

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And by modern life, I just mean 
right now that we experience as 

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limits. 
We're always having, whether 

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we're thinking about our jobs 
and all of their limitations and

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all the things we don't like 
about them and our manager and 

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all that sort of thing. 
There are so many things about 

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growing up, adulthood, marriage,
parenting, you know, pick a 

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phase that we experience as 
limits. 

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And there's a lot of modern life
that takes a lot of the good 

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things, scripturally speaking, 
and wants us to understand them 

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as limits, right? 
Since since the fall, since the 

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garden, so many good things are 
presented as surely God wouldn't

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want to hold that back from you.
Surely he wouldn't want to limit

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you to that thing. 
And you can almost pick, you 

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know, read the news and pick an 
angry group, pick a group that's

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feeling disaffected. 
And so much of it is because 

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they feel disenfranchised. 
So much of it is because they 

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feel like I can't win in what is
in front of me. 

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And they all have their own 
version of who the bad guy is in

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that situation. 
But not, not many of them and 

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not not many of the voices that 
they hear meet them in those 

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limitations and say yes. 
But yes, most of them just want 

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to kind of feed the frustration 
and, and, and weaponize it in 

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some way, right? 
And I'm glad you brought that up

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because I, I was also seeing 
this season and, and these 

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questions we're bringing up 
fundamentally asking questions 

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about power and freedom. 
And I'd I think that it's 

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important even if I don't know 
if you've ever heard the phrase 

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research is me search. 
No, Yeah, but like the the 

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things that in in the academic 
world or yeah, I guess in the 

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academic world it's I'll, I'll 
say that over in the academic 

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world, I there's this that 
phrase research is research 

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because often what you end up 
wanting to explore are things 

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that you actually desperately 
need to know the answers for. 

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And I feel like that is this 
theme for me in a lot of ways 

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too, because fundamentally that 
we need to parse the difference 

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between what is a limitation 
that has come by the fall. 

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I think a chronic illness could 
be an example of a bodily 

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limitation, that it wasn't 
intended by God's design. 

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However, there are also these 
other kinds of limitations, 

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Brian, like you're mentioning 
that we want to see as negative,

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whereas I think what's going on 
there is we have a poor 

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conception of what true freedom 
is. 

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Yeah, it isn't lack of 
restriction on my will to get 

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whatever I want. 
But even there, I I've had so 

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many conversations, I think 
particularly in political 

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contexts where someone 
immediately responds to that 

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with, you know, you're just 
trying to keep me down or like 

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the patriarchy or something, 
right, like that. 

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Whatever your attempt to say, 
limits can be freeing. 

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Wow, that's just exactly what 
you would say. 

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So we want to be able to explore
this concept both through some 

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theological lenses and through 
some practical lenses, the kinds

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of situations that we find 
ourselves in. 

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And so each of the episodes that
we are laying with, each one is,

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is both something that you would
feel in winter, but it's also 

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something you would experience 
metaphorically speaking. 

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So case in point, we're going to
sneak out really quickly just a 

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few days after this episode. 
December 6th is the feast day of

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Saint Nicholas. 
And we thought that was a 

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perfect opportunity to do 
something that I, in my 

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strangeness, have wanted to talk
about for a long time, which is 

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joviality. 
And so we're going to talk about

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the constriction of time. 
And all of our listeners just 

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heard those two things and 
they're already thinking, A, 

225
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what did you mean by joviality? 
And B, what does that have to do

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00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,480
with time? 
So we're going to talk about the

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00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:06,400
legend of Saint Nicholas, but 
we're going to also talk about 

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some very challenging questions 
related to what what it looks 

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00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:18,040
like to, to practice joy, to 
inhabit this thing we call joy. 

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Because there is a, a lost art 
in there, a lost virtue in 

231
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,560
there. 
In the space between me not 

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feeling joyful and this thing I 
want to have called joy. 

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Something like we can just pray 
for there's an actual art, 

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there's an actual skill that we 
can learn in the face of that. 

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And so we are going to be joined
by new friends, Joffrey Swait, 

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00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,640
who I met fairly recently, and 
we're going to have a lovely 

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conversation about joviality and
hopefully laugh a whole bunch. 

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And I think, Brian, I'm so 
excited that we get to focus on 

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your research triviality. 
But also, I think it's just at 

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the proper time. 
I mean, maybe that's why Saint 

241
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Nicholas matters so much to us 
during that Christmas Advent 

242
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,680
season, because it's at the 
fullness of time that Christ 

243
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,080
came. 
But also it matters to our lived

244
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,840
experience of the month of 
December because I feel like 

245
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there is so much demanded of us 
during that time. 

246
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There's these big gaps for us in
terms of forcing things into 

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schedules that don't fit and 
having an expectation from 

248
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people that this is a time to 
reflect and be somber. 

249
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And yet where does that fit? 
And yet there's also this 

250
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expectation that we should have 
joy and be happy and be a part. 

251
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Of. 
It's it's Christmas exactly, but

252
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somehow both are hard to come by
in the season. 

253
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And so I found even just in 
talking to you a little bit 

254
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about why joviality matters, it 
it was hitting my soul for where

255
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,680
I actually am right now this 
December, and giving the actual 

256
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:13,079
practical kind of footholds to 
figure out how to be in this 

257
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:18,760
weird December moment where you 
are asked to be a part of a time

258
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,079
that we don't really even 
understand ourselves yet. 

259
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,040
What does it mean to practice 
Advent appropriately? 

260
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,960
What does it mean to have joy 
and to practice being joyful at 

261
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,840
Christmas? 
Without just trying Harder 

262
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,440
stupid, which is kind of our 
default when we hit December and

263
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,640
Mariah Carey is assaulting our 
senses at every store that we 

264
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,200
enter and we're watching 
Christmas movies that sort of 

265
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,600
beat us over the head with how 
happy we're supposed to feel. 

266
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,800
And unless we're in a very 
particular place in life, often 

267
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,040
it's quite difficult. 
And Try Harder. 

268
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,600
Stupid can't be the answer 
because it never works. 

269
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,160
OK, so we'll get through 
joviality. 

270
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,880
We've talked, we've explored at 
this point the constriction of 

271
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,000
time. 
Then we're going to hit January 

272
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,800
and we're going to consider the 
constriction of means because 

273
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,720
hey, we've just gotten through 
Christmas and we got a bunch of 

274
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,120
presents. 
But also we're broke again 

275
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:21,040
because we just bought everybody
presents and bought food we 

276
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,760
don't normally get and had out 
of town guests and whatever the 

277
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,680
case may be. 
And so that we thought they, the

278
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,520
constriction of means, the 
experience of whether it's stuff

279
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:39,200
or whether it's just emotional 
bandwidth, just I've got nothing

280
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,760
left to give. 
What does generosity look like 

281
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,240
in that context? 
And I actually should call this 

282
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,200
out. 
I didn't even notice this until 

283
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:50,920
10 minutes before he started 
recording Sarah. 

284
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:58,000
But all of our stories this 
season, our Middle Eastern, 

285
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,600
Eastern Europe based. 
So we're going East to explore 

286
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,160
these questions related to the 
incarnation, which seems 

287
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:08,800
appropriate somehow. 
Right. 

288
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,040
Moving towards our culture, 
though, our cultural moment, 

289
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,720
Something that I find 
interesting too about thinking 

290
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,720
about our means, especially in 
January is how while that's the 

291
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,440
time we feel the most tapped 
out, maybe financially, maybe 

292
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,440
emotionally, physically, all 
three. 

293
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,080
It's also the time our culture 
wants us to take kind of the, 

294
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,840
the needle and throttle things 
even further with this new start

295
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,840
mantra of New Year's 
resolutions, the new gym 

296
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,360
membership, Also our desire to 
kind of clamp down and control 

297
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,360
our lives after the craziness of
the holidays, right? 

298
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:53,920
There's this almost idealism 
about our means. 

299
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,440
And yet we actually have the 
least amount of capacity also in

300
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,680
January, not to mention 
literally the energy from the 

301
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,440
sun. 
We don't have very much at that 

302
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,880
time either. 
And so there's this tension of 

303
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:12,480
what does it mean to better 
ourselves to to move towards 

304
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:18,200
generosity? 
But not out of our own supply, 

305
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:24,400
but through participation in the
life of God through the church 

306
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,440
and looking at different 
sources. 

307
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,320
And so I'm excited about talking
about that because it does seem 

308
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,280
so otherworldly. 
Yeah. 

309
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,200
So we're going to go to Tolstoy 
for that one. 

310
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,880
Yeah, So January, what does it 
look like to actually feel like 

311
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,960
we can afford to be generous? 
What if? 

312
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,880
What could happen that could 
possibly nudge my mental, 

313
00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:00,160
emotional, spiritual needle into
that place again? 

314
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,160
Absent, try harder, stupid. 
And then we're going to blink 

315
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,960
and it's going to be lent and 
we're going to consider the 

316
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,880
constriction of space, which 
hey, some of us will experience 

317
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,040
already in December without of 
found guests and things like 

318
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,000
that. 
But winter in general tends to 

319
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:26,000
kind of drive us indoors. 
And I, we, we have radiator 

320
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:30,200
heating and I in half the house 
and like very little heating, 

321
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,200
like inadequate heating in the 
rest of the house. 

322
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,600
So I feel like in winter I'm 
always sort of trapped in the 

323
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,760
sauna on the one hand or the 
icebox in the other. 

324
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,520
On a metaphorical level, I also 
do see Lent as kind of 

325
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,080
claustrophobic because no matter
how hard you try to run away 

326
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,680
from, you know, the deep, deep 
corners of yourself, no matter 

327
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:58,080
how hard you try to like start 
the new me in January, you end 

328
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,440
up around February. 
And when you use, if you do 

329
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,800
practice any form of Lent where 
you start reflecting on and 

330
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:12,480
preparing yourself for Christ's 
crucifixion, I find that to be a

331
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,120
claustrophobic experience. 
It's like, oh, there's not 

332
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,520
enough space. 
I can't get away. 

333
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,400
I'm stuck here. 
I'm still here. 

334
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,960
It's still the same thing. 
There's a monotony, I think, to 

335
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,720
a lack of space. 
Even getting to even more 

336
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,280
philosophically these concepts 
of freedom, right? 

337
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,120
Like if we have a notion of 
freedom which is boundless, then

338
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,720
the constriction of space is the
most stressful to us, right? 

339
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,680
So I'm excited to kind of think 
about those concepts too, when 

340
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:53,600
we think about literal space. 
Yeah, well, so did you, Did your

341
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,040
family do much with Lent growing
up or is that more of an adult 

342
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,160
discovery for you? 
It's more an adult discovery. 

343
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,480
OK, same. 
OK, Yep. 

344
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,760
So we'll have some fun with 
that, whether you as our 

345
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,560
listeners are in a church that 
does a lot with lents to prepare

346
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,880
for Easter or not. 
This is going to be a fun one. 

347
00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:16,800
And we get to talk about one of 
my favorite books by a living 

348
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,680
author, which is A Gentleman in 
Moscow, which is going to be 

349
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,960
awesome. 
If I could say a note about all 

350
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:32,240
three of these, Brian, I think 
that all of these are exciting 

351
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,400
to handle within the season. 
We've given them December, 

352
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,000
January and February because 
these are hardest to engage at 

353
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,800
these times, right? 
And so that's when we. 

354
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,080
Want to? 
We're hitting ourselves in our 

355
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,200
weak points. 
Exactly, exactly. 

356
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,880
We're not talking about the the,
the constriction of space when 

357
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,280
it's summer and there seems to 
be endless time on the calendar 

358
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,880
for us to move about and move 
around and everyone is starting 

359
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,120
about outside, right? 
We're talking about it when we 

360
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:06,240
just can't handle being inside 
one more day and then the snow 

361
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,040
falls again. 
I know I'll. 

362
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,040
Turn on a podcast that tells me 
I should I should just not be 

363
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,800
like that. 
Right. 

364
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,280
Oh boy. 
So I mean, we have a big 

365
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,600
responsibility here, not to say 
try harder stupid, but I think 

366
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,120
if I could bring in the some, 
some beautiful things from the 

367
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:28,760
tradition of of virtue ethics. 
There's a concept in virtue 

368
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,840
ethics that you don't know if 
you have a virtue until you have

369
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,600
to put it into practice, but you
also don't really have the 

370
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,440
virtue until you put it into 
practice. 

371
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,560
So the paradigmatic case is 
courage. 

372
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,880
You can't be courageous until 
you are doing something that is 

373
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:52,360
courageous, so to speak. 
But also, how then do you, how 

374
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:55,320
then are you going to be the 
kind of person who can step 

375
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,120
forward and be courageous if you
haven't practiced it? 

376
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,240
So there's this sort of 
paradoxical conundrum where you 

377
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:09,440
have to make little efforts with
these little, little practices 

378
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,240
so that you kind of can become 
the kind of person who can make 

379
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,680
the big effort, like do the 
thing and, and do it in a way 

380
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,160
that it just comes naturally to 
some degree, right? 

381
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,120
It's, it's the you must you, you
couldn't think of anything else 

382
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,600
but do that thing which happened
to be courageous. 

383
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,000
And I'd like to think about 
these constrictions within 

384
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,920
helping us practice the virtue 
of magnanimity. 

385
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,920
Have you, have you thought a 
little bit about that one? 

386
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:47,080
It's kind of a goodness. 
It's a very misunderstood and 

387
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,280
very lost virtue. 
Yes, weirdly, yes, I, so I had a

388
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:59,280
when I was studying theology 
after college, I had a mentor 

389
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,160
who was very big on magnanimity.
And. 

390
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:08,920
OK, so it in, in the sort of the
kingly virtues in general, I 

391
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,080
think are including joviality is
one of them, which is what we're

392
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,560
going to kick off with next 
week. 

393
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,240
The yeah, the, the, the sort of 
kingly virtues in general, I 

394
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,680
think are, are neglected a bit 
to the point where, yeah, we 

395
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,880
just said that word and probably
most of our listeners are would 

396
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,520
not respond the way I did when 
you asked it. 

397
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,160
And they they're thinking what 
even I have a vague idea of what

398
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,920
that is, but only the vaguest 
idea. 

399
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,960
So, so there's definitely going 
to be a sense of recovering some

400
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,440
lost virtues in this 
conversation. 

401
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,480
We want to be able to give you, 
our listeners, some some tools 

402
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,080
that you may or may not have 
grown up with. 

403
00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:49,760
In many cases, we may not, may 
or may not have grown up with, 

404
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,920
but that are available in a 2000
year old religion. 

405
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,640
Right. 
And if I could give a little 

406
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,560
anger that my daughter's 
namesake actually gave me about 

407
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:06,880
what this virtue is at first, at
first glance, it's also helpful 

408
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,160
to know that from the Latin 
Magnus that is great and animus 

409
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,240
is soul. 
So we're talking about someone 

410
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,760
who has great is greatly sold it
like has a. 

411
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,360
And so you might say like, what 
does that even mean? 

412
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,920
But the anchor that my dear 
Elena Berry told me is that it's

413
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,520
kind of easier to think about 
this within the image of 

414
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,600
Tolkien's story and how he 
writes about. 

415
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,760
Everything is. 
But we have these little hobbits

416
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,040
who are asked to do something 
that is too big for them. 

417
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,520
I mean, they have to step into 
these shoes before they actually

418
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,280
fit for this great journey that 
they have to partake, right? 

419
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,120
And so you need to practice in 
order to have it. 

420
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,600
And at the end, the King of Men 
bow down to them. 

421
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,480
And so the question that I have 
when we think about the 

422
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,080
constriction of time is like, 
how do we become the kind of 

423
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,680
people who have great souls? 
And paradoxically, I think it's 

424
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,680
interesting to consider how God 
uses the constrictions of our 

425
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,400
lives to bring us the invitation
to step into shoes that are too 

426
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,840
big for us and, and to image 
Jesus who did that himself, 

427
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,080
right? 
And to have him as our as our 

428
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,040
exemplar as well as the hobbits,
because you always need, you 

429
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,680
always need a Hobbit as your 
exemplar. 

430
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,680
Yeah. 
And in general, the the you 

431
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,280
leading into that with with 
Tolkien just is, is a great 

432
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:39,640
connection point. 
And this whole season is going 

433
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:45,240
to be a great connection point 
with our larger idea at Anselm 

434
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,200
that part of how your soul is 
formed and ought to be formed is

435
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,800
through the great stories and 
dialogue with the great stories,

436
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,240
both in a in a sort of 
chronological Chronos Cairo's 

437
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:02,600
time sense inhabiting the larger
meta narrative of of scripture 

438
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,840
and of God, but also in the 
sense that these these small 

439
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,640
stories, they don't they don't 
just teach us something in a 

440
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,800
take away, a sort of sense. 
They, they form our souls. 

441
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:20,320
Have you have you ever heard the
this is This is neither here nor

442
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,040
there, but it's hilarious if you
ever heard the quote about Lord 

443
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,720
of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.
No. 

444
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,320
It's oh, gosh. 
OK, so it's this absolutely 

445
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,680
brutal quote from John Rogers, 
but I love it. 

446
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,520
I told it to a group of high 
schoolers recently, and there 

447
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,880
was just dead silence. 
Nobody laughed because nobody 

448
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,520
got the joke. 
But if you But if you deal it to

449
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,880
the right audience and 
listeners, I'm hoping most of 

450
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,440
you are among them. 
But in the comments whether you 

451
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,320
are or not. 
Yes, so the the quote goes like 

452
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,240
this. 
There are two novels that can 

453
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,560
change a bookish 14 year old's 
life. 

454
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,280
The Lord of the Rings and Atlas 
Shrugged 1 is a childish fantasy

455
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,360
that often engenders A lifelong 
obsession with its unbelievable 

456
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,200
heroes, leading to an 
emotionally stunted, socially 

457
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,560
crippled adulthood unable to 
deal with the real world. 

458
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:16,760
The other, of course, involves 
orcs, which, as someone who 

459
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,480
hates Alice Shrunk I, I think is
just hilarious. 

460
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:30,040
That's wonderful. 
Well, but, but I think it the 

461
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,400
reason why that's so funny is 
because I think, at least for 

462
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,840
you and I, we've experienced 
what kind of life comes from an 

463
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:48,600
imagination focused on seeing 
everything as pragmatic and 

464
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,480
everyone as kind of out to get 
you and that you're really the 

465
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:59,160
only one you can depend on. 
I think that like that is the 

466
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,520
kind of life you have when your 
imagination is malformed by a by

467
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,560
a story like Atlas Drug that 
like truly your limitations are 

468
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,160
your enemy. 
And I do think to your point, 

469
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,240
stories are not just 
propositional content that have 

470
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,600
a good moral at the end, but 
it's actually letting us inhabit

471
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:27,880
with different eyes a world that
can hold hope so. 

472
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,280
And the reason that so many 
stories like Lord of the Rings 

473
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:36,280
is a good example of that, of a 
story that means so much to so 

474
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,720
many people, because it's sort 
of it gives them that whole 

475
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,680
world all together. 
Not just not in the sense of 

476
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:46,400
Middle Earth, but in the sense 
of this this story world 

477
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,840
inhabited by the Christian 
ethos, by a a more complex 

478
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,120
explanation of the nature of of 
right and wrong and nobility and

479
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,320
courage and sacrifice and 
loyalty and goodness. 

480
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,280
And, but, but so much of what we
have sought to build as the 

481
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,520
ENSEM society and continue to to
seek to build is that that story

482
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,960
came from somewhere. 
It's wonderful that that's the 

483
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,120
story. 
Or there are others, of course, 

484
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,520
that that have meant so much to 
you and that have brought you 

485
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,560
into this larger world. 
But there is in fact, that 

486
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,040
larger world. 
Lord of the Rings is not the 

487
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,360
larger world. 
The Lord of the Rings is your 

488
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,480
gateway into what did, what did 
Tolkien read that that made him 

489
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,080
like this, that allowed him to 
write a story like this. 

490
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,360
And so, so much of what we want 
to get into is that larger world

491
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,040
and all of the stories that are 
the the, the tapestry of that 

492
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,640
world. 
Side note, points to you for 

493
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,760
that incredibly skillful 
transition from my goofy quote 

494
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,280
and Atlas Shrugged to the larger
limitations theme. 

495
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,880
I, I, I, if I, if I were wearing
a cap, I would tip my cap to 

496
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,880
you. 
That was extremely well done. 

497
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:08,480
Fine, OK, so we, as we wrap up, 
Oh, and by the way, listeners, 

498
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,440
if you were wondering why are 
these two people so down on Iron

499
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,120
Rand and Atlas Shrugged, drop a 
note in the comments and we 

500
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:21,120
would be happy to fill you in. 
So Sarah, any, any final 

501
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,520
thoughts? 
So we're going to get into these

502
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,000
episodes. 
Joviality, construction of time,

503
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,880
generosity, construction of 
means, warmth, construction of 

504
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,440
space. 
We're going to explore stories 

505
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,720
and explore aspects of the 
Christian tradition that can 

506
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:40,440
equip us to become deeper and 
wiser and more stable and more 

507
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,400
beautiful and more good people, 
more conformed to the image of 

508
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,280
Christ. 
Not just by trying harder, 

509
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,480
Stupid. 
Any final thoughts before we 

510
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,600
sign off for the day and jump 
into the actual episodes next 

511
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,880
week? 
Yeah, I actually I have some 

512
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,080
thoughts from a question you 
prompted a couple a couple weeks

513
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,760
back when we were discussing 
this theme. 

514
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,280
Brian and I want to hear your 
the answer to your own question 

515
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:15,679
you asked a while ago. 
What do you hope that we feel by

516
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,239
the end of the season? 
Not just understand 

517
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,880
intellectually, but actually 
feel. 

518
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,040
Can we just pause and appreciate
how much emotional maturity I've

519
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:28,000
I've accumulated in 40 years to 
allow me to, to ask a question 

520
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,199
like that? 
Mister Mr. Left Brained, I know 

521
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:33,880
you go first. 
I'll jump in next. 

522
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,159
Yeah. 
And and maybe this will, this 

523
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:41,920
will show my cards of how much 
more emotional maturing I have 

524
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,840
to do because I couldn't think 
of a specific emotion, but I 

525
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,440
could think of an image for 
myself and for others. 

526
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,120
I want myself as well As for 
others to be able to smile a 

527
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,000
little bit more when they run 
into their limitation. 

528
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,400
And, and the image that I have 
is for some of us, that might be

529
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,160
like a tiny uptick of our 
metaphorical or literal mouths. 

530
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:15,800
But the, the image that I had 
was I as a kid remember being 

531
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,960
really grumpy or, you know, 
having my own sort of temper 

532
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,080
tantrum, depending on how age 
appropriate was at the time to 

533
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,200
do so. 
But I remember a couple of my 

534
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,680
family members being able to 
kind of draw me out of it a 

535
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,520
little bit through their joy and
through cracking jokes to make 

536
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,320
me feel better. 
But I distinctly remember that 

537
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,480
that experience of feeling and 
staying kind of grumpy 

538
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,000
externally, but some of their 
joys kind of sloughing off onto 

539
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:48,680
me and they're being a little 
uptick of, you know, the the 

540
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,800
corners of my mouth smiling. 
And and and I say it that way. 

541
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,360
And that's my desire. 
Maybe because we need to spend 

542
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,720
more time thinking about hope. 
And that is maybe a poor 

543
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:06,400
expectation to have, but also 
because I think there is such a 

544
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,480
weight that comes to our 
limitations. 

545
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,600
Some of us have chronic 
illnesses. 

546
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,280
A lot of what comes from the 
true tension points of the 

547
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,480
limitations that matter to us 
matter because they feel like 

548
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,760
they are the places where we 
feel excluded. 

549
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,040
And and so this is this is a 
hard, this is a hard thing. 

550
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,200
We're trying to to engage the 
season. 

551
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,520
And, and I want to be mindful of
that for my own heart, but also 

552
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,320
for the hearts of others that I,
I really do desire for the Lord 

553
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:51,280
to come in and show us that our 
limitations can't on the whole, 

554
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,480
is what it means to be a 
creature. 

555
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,440
And that our limits that are 
designed by God are the gift of 

556
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,640
particularity is the gift of me,
Sarah being me, Sarah, not 

557
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,320
someone else. 
But they also come at great 

558
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,680
costs and they come with the 
weight of the brokenness of this

559
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:11,440
world. 
So. 

560
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,800
So we're going to tackle 
original sin. 

561
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:21,280
No biggie. 
That's really interesting. 

562
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,080
I love that. 
I love that. 

563
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,920
The same group of high schoolers
that I've mentioned earlier, I 

564
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,280
asked them all they're about for
35 of them, I asked each of them

565
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,440
what the big, the big question 
was they were wrestling with 

566
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,120
right now. 
And about a third of them said 

567
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,800
the problem of evil. 
The other 2/3 were a bunch of 

568
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,440
random things. 
But the the, the most common 

569
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,680
answer by far was the problem of
evil. 

570
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,600
And a lot of that had come from 
experiences of grief in in their

571
00:37:54,600 --> 00:38:00,400
own life. 
So I love the thought that we 

572
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,920
could make a dent in that that 
question. 

573
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,840
But also, yeah, limitations as a
as a created thing and not just 

574
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,000
limitations in the sense of of 
post lapsarian limitations to 

575
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,960
fall limit limitations. 
I guess I would I would probably

576
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,200
how would I hope to feel at the 
end of this? 

577
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,480
This definitely falls into the 
category of me search. 

578
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:33,760
But I think if we do our job 
right, if, if God speaks through

579
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:40,800
us in these episodes, us and our
guests, I would hope that our 

580
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,520
listeners and me personally at 
the end of each episode and at 

581
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,800
the end of the season feel a 
greater sense of divine 

582
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:55,120
abundance because each if if 
there's a through line in the 

583
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,400
the secret answer or key to each
of these challenges, joviality, 

584
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:08,560
generosity and warmth, it's that
it's not, it's it's encountering

585
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,440
divine abundance in our 
limitations. 

586
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:17,600
And I think I've heard too many 
sermons or podcasts that are an 

587
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:24,000
attempt to deal with limitations
by shrugging them off and 

588
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,120
preaching the divine abundance. 
But what does it mean to 

589
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:31,240
actually encounter the divine 
abundance in our limitations? 

590
00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:34,280
Not just sort of pretend they 
don't exist or don't matter? 

591
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:39,360
Because boy, if you get me in a 
situation where I have a pulled 

592
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,840
hamstring and a short night of 
sleep and something I'm stressed

593
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,800
out about that's coming up and 
something that's, you know, 

594
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,480
triggering some anxiety about 
something or other. 

595
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:55,280
And you, you put all of that 
into my mind and my body and 

596
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,360
then put me, give me an actual 
practical concrete right in 

597
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,080
front of me challenge to handle.
If I'm doing well, I can do 

598
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,960
joviality pretty well. 
Like I have a pretty natural 

599
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,200
twinkle to my eye. 
Well, that goes out real fast in

600
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,200
the face of the right set of 
circumstances and. 

601
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,920
As I grow, as I get more mature,
that becomes less the case. 

602
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,720
But it's a slow journey for me 
and I know I'm not alone in 

603
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:25,840
that, whether it's with that 
virtue or with something else. 

604
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,400
So for me, abundance. 
That's awesome. 

605
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,280
That's awesome and that that 
really articulates better than I

606
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,880
could ever so far have put 
please. 

607
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,160
What are you? 
What are you smiling at, though,

608
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,120
Sarah? 
You know, like I want people to 

609
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,000
smile at their limitation, but 
why would you smile? 

610
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,040
And I, and I think that that's 
exactly what you're talking 

611
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,360
about. 
There is this acknowledgement 

612
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,880
that there is something here. 
It's not just a lack. 

613
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:54,840
And so to kind of unpack that 
more is is our goal and I'm 

614
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,760
excited to explore with you, 
Brian. 

615
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,800
Likewise, let's do it. 
Well, listeners, we will see you

616
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,880
next week to talk about 
joviality with Joffrey Swaid, 

617
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,600
and we're going to have a jovial
time together. 

618
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,040
See You then. 
The Imagination Redeemed podcast

619
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,960
is a production of the Anselm 
Society. 

620
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,240
It's easy to see this world as 
disenchanted and to give up hope

621
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,920
that there's more. 
But you were made to see the 

622
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,160
world with the eyes of heaven 
and to live a bountiful life 

623
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,160
that participates in the life of
God, like in the great stories. 

624
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,120
To help make the show possible, 
go to anselmsociety.org/podcast 

625
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,760
25 and make a donation. 
The Anselm Society is a place 

626
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,720
where you can come in and 
experience that beauty, joyful 

627
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:46,480
celebration, and ancient wisdom 
and go out renewed, bringing 

628
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,280
that life to your vocation, 
home, and church. 

629
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,520
Learn more at anselmsociety.org 
and join us next time as we 

630
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,440
pursue a renaissance of the 
Christian imagination together.