1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:05,800 At 6:30 on the 21st of June 1922, when Count Alexander Ilyas 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,840 Rostov was escorted through the gates of the Kremlin onto Red 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,120 Square, it was glorious and cool. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,200 Drawing his shoulders back without breaking stride, the 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,040 Count inhaled the air like 1 fresh from a swim. 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,160 The sky was the very blue that the cupolas of Saint Basils have 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,240 been painted for. Their pinks, greens and golds 8 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,480 shimmered as if it were the sole purpose of a religion to cheer 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,640 its divinity. As he strode from the square 10 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,960 into the lobby of the Hotel Metropole, the Count gave a wide 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,240 wave with which to simultaneously greet the 12 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,560 unflappable Arcady, who was manning the front desk, and 13 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,080 sweet Valentina who was dusting A statuette. 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,160 Though the Count had greeted them in this manner 100 times 15 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,520 before, both responded with a wide eyed stare. 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,520 It was the sort of reception one might have expected when 17 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,360 arriving for a dinner party. Having forgotten to Don one's 18 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,680 pants, he stirred up the stairs until he reached the third 19 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,120 floor. Then he walked down the red 20 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,800 carpeted hallway toward his suite, an interconnected 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,360 bedroom, bath, dining room, and grand salon with eight foot 22 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,200 windows overlooking the lindens of Theater Square. 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,520 And there the rudeness of the day awaited, for before the 24 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,600 flung open doors of his rooms stood a captain of the guards, 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,680 with Pasha and Petya, the hotel's bellhops. 26 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,000 The two young men met the count's gaze with looks of 27 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,080 embarrassment, having clearly been conscripted into some duty 28 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,880 they found distasteful. The count addressed to the 29 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,160 officer. What is the meaning of this 30 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,000 captain? The captain, who seemed mildly 31 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,280 surprised by the question, had the good training to maintain 32 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,640 the evenness of his effect. As you have been sentenced for 33 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,760 the crime of being an aristocrats, to live out your 34 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,680 days within the walls of this hotel, I am here to show you to 35 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,520 our quarters. These are my quarters. 36 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,720 Betraying the slightest suggestion of a smile, the 37 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,400 captain replied. No longer, I'm afraid. 38 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,840 Leaving Pasha and Pasha behind, the captain led the count and 39 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,400 his escort to a utility stair hidden behind an inconspicuous 40 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,160 door at the core of the hotel. Up they wound 3 flights to where 41 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,240 a door opened on a narrow corridor servicing a bathroom 42 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,440 and six closets reminiscent of monastic cells. 43 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,760 Earlier that day. The room closest to the 44 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,160 stairwell, a tiny one with a slanted ceiling, had been 45 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,880 cleared of all but a cast iron bed, A3 legged Bureau and a 46 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,920 decade of dust. The good captain explained that 47 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:34,400 he had summoned the bellhops to help the Count move what few 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,640 belongings his new quarters would accommodate, and the rest 49 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,360 becomes the property of the people. 50 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,200 So this is their game, thought the Count. 51 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,720 Very well. He skipped back down the belfry, 52 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,400 marched along the third floor hallway, and re entered his 53 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,720 suite, where the two bellhops looked up with woeful 54 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,440 expressions. It's all right, fellows, the 55 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,080 Count assured, and then began pointing. 56 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,000 This, that, those, all the books. 57 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,880 Among the furnishings destined for his new quarters, the Count 58 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,040 chose 2 high back chairs, his grandmother's Oriental coffee 59 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,720 table, and a favorite set of her porcelain plates. 60 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,160 He chose the two table lamps fashioned from Ebony elephants 61 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,040 and the portrait of his sister Helena, which Sarov had painted 62 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,920 during a brief stay at Eidelauer in 19 O 8. 63 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,000 He did not forget the leather case that had been fashioned 64 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,520 specially for him by Asprey in London, and which his good 65 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,160 friend Mishka had so appropriately christened the 66 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,680 ambassador. Noting that the guards were 67 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,360 eyeing the 2 bottles of Brandy on the console, the Counts 68 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,240 tossed them in as well, and once the trunk had been carried 69 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,800 upstairs, he finally pointed to the desk. 70 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,720 The two bellhops, their bright blue uniforms already smudged 71 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,880 from their efforts to cold it by the corners. 72 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:46,960 But it weighs a ton, said one to the other. 73 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,880 A king fortifies himself with a castle, observed the Count, A 74 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,600 gentleman with a desk. Then the Count began his 75 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,080 farewell walk. First, he admired the salon's 76 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,160 grand dimensions and his two chandeliers. 77 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,000 He admired the painted panels of the little dining room and the 78 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000 elaborate brass mechanisms that allowed one to secure the double 79 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,200 doors of the bedroom. In short, he reviewed the 80 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,800 interior much as would a potential buyer who was seeing 81 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:13,240 the rooms for the very first time. 82 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,920 Once in the bedroom, the Count paused before the marble tucked 83 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,399 table on which lay an assortment of curious. 84 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,160 Just a funny thing reflected the Count as he stood ready to 85 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,840 abandon his suite. From the earliest age we must 86 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:27,760 learn to say goodbye to friends and family. 87 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,840 But experience is less likely to teach us how to bid our dearest 88 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:34,640 possessions of you. And if it were you, we wouldn't 89 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,920 welcome the education. But of course, that thing is 90 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,920 just a thing. And so, slipping only his 91 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,600 sister's scissors into his pocket, the Count looked once 92 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,560 more at what heirlooms remained and then expunged them from his 93 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,560 heartache forever. One hour later, the Count 94 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,440 bounced twice on his new mattress to identify the key of 95 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,160 the bed springs. C#. 96 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,520 Then he took a moment to arrange his few remaining possessions, a 97 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,720 photograph, the 2 bottles of Brandy, and so on. 98 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,280 A pigeon landed outside on the copper stripping of the ledge. 99 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,640 Why, hello, said the Count. How kind of you to stop by. 100 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,880 The pigeon looked back with a decidedly proprietary air, 101 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,160 nodding once to the pigeon to indicate they would resume their 102 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,280 discussion. Anon the Count rebuttoned his 103 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:20,160 jacket and turned to find that three members of the hotel's 104 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:21,760 staff were crowded in the doorway. 105 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,800 There was Andre, the Major D, with his perfect poise and long, 106 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,600 judicious hands. Vasily, the hotel's inimitable 107 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,000 concierge, and Marina, the shy delights with the wandering eye 108 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,920 who had recently been promoted from chambermaid to seamstress. 109 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,640 The three of them exhibited the same bewildered gaze that the 110 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,320 Count had noticed on the faces of Arcadia and Valentina a few 111 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,120 hours before. And finally it struck him. 112 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,720 When he had been carted off to trial that morning, they had all 113 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,360 assumed that he would never return. 114 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,560 He had emerged from behind the walls of the Kremlin like an 115 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,360 aviator from the wreckage of a crash. 116 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,720 My dear friends, said the Count, no doubt you are curious as to 117 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,240 the day's events. As you may know, I was invited 118 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:02,800 to the Kremlin for a tete a tete. 119 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,040 There, several duly goateed officers of the current regime 120 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,120 determined that for the crime of being born an aristocrat, I 121 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,120 should be sentenced to spend the rest of my days in this hotel. 122 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,520 In response to the cheers, the Count shook hands with his 123 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,680 guests, 1 by 1, expressing to each his appreciation for their 124 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,520 fellowship and heartfelt thanks. Come in, come in, he said. 125 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,720 Together, the three staff members squeezed their way 126 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,120 between the towers of furniture, teetering. 127 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,080 If you would be so kind, said Count, handing Andre one of the 128 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,160 bottles of Brandy, and he kneeled before the ambassador 129 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,920 through the class and opened it like a giant book. 130 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,880 From this he drew 4 Brandy glasses and passed them around 131 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,280 as Andre, having plucked the cork from the bottle, performs 132 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:51,800 the honors. Once his guests set their Brandy 133 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,040 in hand, the Count raised his own on high. 134 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,000 To the metropole. He said. 135 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,160 To the metropole they replied. The Count was something of a 136 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,240 natural born host, and in the hour that ensued A surprising 137 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,080 amount of laughter was present. On this of all nights, the Count 138 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,240 deeply appreciated the staff's good cheer. 139 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,600 At 10:00, the Count walked his guests to the belfry and bid 140 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,120 them goodnight with the same sense of ceremony that he would 141 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,720 have exhibited at the door of his family's residence in Saint 142 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,800 Petersburg. Returning to his quarters, he 143 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,480 opened the window, though it was only the size of a postage 144 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,080 stamp. Poured the last. 145 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,480 Of the Brandy and took a seat at the desk. 146 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,000 If a man does not master his circumstances, he reflected 147 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,000 philosophically, then he is bound to be mastered by them. 148 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,560 Welcome to the Imagination Redeemed podcast where we follow 149 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,600 the great stories further up and further in In Pursuit of the 150 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:55,760 Life of Christ. Welcome back to Imagination 151 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,280 Redeemed, everyone. I'm Brian Brown, joined today by 152 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,920 Jeremiah England, Sarah Howell and Christina Brown. 153 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,760 And if you are not familiar with the story that I just read, it 154 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,800 is part of the opening of the book A Gentleman in Moscow by 155 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,600 Amor. Toles which is one of my. 156 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,840 Favorite books by a living author? 157 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,080 You may remember if you've listened to our last couple of 158 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,720 episodes that this. Winter we've been exploring. 159 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,800 Limits and constrictions on our embodied lives. 160 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:29,400 We talked about joviality as the key to magnanimous joy in the 161 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,200 face of limits that come against joy. 162 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,159 We talked about the limits of time and and season. 163 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:40,480 In that context, we talked in our last episode about 164 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,440 magnanimity itself as the key to practicing generosity within the 165 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,560 limits of means. In this episode, we're going to 166 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:52,960 talk about how the limits of space can grow our character, 167 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,240 our virtue, and our closeness with God. 168 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,120 If we let them. We will not be revealing huge 169 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,080 book spoilers in case you haven't read it. 170 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,560 And I want to call out right away that anytime somebody's 171 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:09,520 doing an episode about a book, people who have read the book 172 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,040 can kind of flock to it and go, oh, I want to, I want to hear 173 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,920 this conversation. And people who haven't read the 174 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,000 book A might worry about spoilers and B might just sort 175 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,080 of check out. So I want to make sure that all 176 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:25,240 of our listeners understand we're talking about something 177 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:29,960 that we all struggle with. We are in winter and we're stuck 178 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,000 inside a lot, and a lot of limits come with that 179 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,000 constricted space now, a monotony, potentially bad habits 180 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,920 and patterns, friction or noise from other people. 181 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,040 And we're kind of conditioned to view limits as confining in 182 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,720 general, even if we pay lip service to the value of limits. 183 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,120 Oh yes, limits can create this or that positive benefit. 184 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,800 As soon as we experience a new limit, right? 185 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,400 We typically respond with frustration, rebellion, grief, 186 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,080 whatever. So we're going to be drawing 187 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,480 some wisdom from this book in the course of that. 188 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,960 But we will we'll kind of signal what what we're doing along the 189 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,320 way. So we won't, we hopefully won't 190 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,560 run into situations where if you haven't read this particular 191 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,200 story, heard this particular anecdote, it has no value to 192 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,240 you. So I'll sort of kick this off 193 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,800 with this quote from Dostoevsky, which is appropriate since it's 194 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,600 this is all Russian themed literature. 195 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,480 And then I'll toss it out to you guys with an initial question in 196 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,720 The Brothers Karamazov, Elder Zosima says. 197 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,640 The world says you have desires. Satisfy them, expand your 198 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,000 desires and demand more. This is the worldly doctrine of 199 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,360 today and they believe that this is freedom. 200 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,440 The results for the rich is isolation and suicide. 201 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:52,280 For the poor envy and murder. As I was preparing for this 202 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,880 episode, as I was throwing notes around to you guys as we were 203 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,120 talking about it, I was noticing certainly a lot of patterns in 204 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,320 Christian writers, whether it's novelists like Dostoevsky or 205 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,720 whether it's ancient Mystics. There's they're very, very 206 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:12,640 different perspectives on limits and particularly limits on space 207 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,440 of various kinds. And it definitely had me walking 208 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,080 away going. This. 209 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,560 This novel is not unique in raising the the notion that 210 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,400 there's a way to learn to be the kind of person who is sharpened 211 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,640 and grown and even set free by limits. 212 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:33,400 So perhaps guys, we could start by just jumping into that story 213 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,080 that we opened with. I kept most of what was in the 214 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,600 book when I was adapting it for for reading because there's a 215 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,680 lot of detail in there that's I think is worth our conversation. 216 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,000 So maybe just as a softball to start us off, I would just love 217 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,600 to know from each of you what strikes you and listeners, you 218 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,080 can think about this too, what strikes you about Count Rostov's 219 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,680 immediate response to his new situation. 220 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,600 This is brand new to him. Like 5 minutes ago, he was told. 221 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,560 You came this. Goes to being executed. 222 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,960 Now you are going to be under house arrest in this hotel. 223 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,760 Can't leave the hotel for literally the rest of your life 224 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,520 and oh by the way, we're taking away your room within the hotel 225 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,800 and most of your stuff. What's your response to or what? 226 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,000 Strikes you about his response. One of the things I like in the 227 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,640 book that he talks about later is he kind of makes a comparison 228 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,120 of himself to Robinson Caruso. And he says, you know, like is 229 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,920 is kind of his way of responding to life that he tries to 230 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,800 achieve. Is being Anglican washed ashore 231 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,520 like Caruso and fashion a life out of your difficult 232 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,920 circumstances. And it is almost like that, you 233 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,680 know, Robinson Caruso is trapped on this island. 234 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,520 Everything he's known and loved is taken away from him. 235 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,200 And yet he's able to build a life such that I think he even 236 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,360 mentions the book. And after Crusoe gets off the 237 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,920 island, like three years later, he's like, I got to find my 238 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,880 island and get back there again, you know, because that's where 239 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,160 his life is. But, you know, I think there's, 240 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,840 there's something to that, like almost hardcore practicality of 241 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:09,680 being the master of your circumstances so that your 242 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:13,760 circumstances don't master you. And his approach to that I think 243 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,560 is, is very much so He's like, OK, I'm washed ashore. 244 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,560 It's time to salvage what I can and start rebuilding. 245 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,080 And I think that's throughout the book. 246 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,880 As a side note, I loved it. It, it sounded to me like when 247 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,880 you said Robertson Crusoe, it sounded like you were saying 248 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,800 Robinson Caruso. And I just have this image of 249 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:40,840 CSI Miami like Robinson. Yeah, sorry. 250 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,360 What else? Well, just to Jeremiah's point, 251 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,440 I think of, you know, just saying that Swiss Family 252 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,760 Robinson same same concept, right, Only they have like a 253 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,000 family, right? Like it's AI guess husband, wife 254 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,240 and three boys or something like that and same concept, you know, 255 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,440 like we're either going to die or we're going to build a life 256 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,360 and they turn it into this grand adventure. 257 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,000 And I remember as a kid reading that I was just like. 258 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,480 Wow. This is what people can do with 259 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:08,760 stuff like this. The. 260 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,280 Point about family is really important when we think about 261 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,760 the count because even though he is alone, so he is like 262 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:21,520 Robinson, he brings along with him the items from his past and 263 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,520 from his family. I'd love to have a little bit of 264 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,400 a conversation about how he brings the bottles of Brandy 265 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:34,680 almost because he noticed the soldiers escorting him wanted 266 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,960 them. Bit of rebellion. 267 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,360 There. Yeah, yeah. 268 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaking of the Brandy, Sarah, if I remember right and correct 269 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,200 me if I'm wrong, but he takes those bottles of Brandy to 270 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,920 eventually give to the guards, you know, as you know, somewhat 271 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,440 of a bribery and to Curry favor. And I think it's excellent 272 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,080 foreshadowing for kind of his whole character arc in the rest 273 00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,400 of the book. Because I know one of the things 274 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:04,960 that we wanted to talk a little bit about is the juxtaposition 275 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,320 of this is being a very winter book where I I definitely, as I 276 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,600 was reading it, always had the the feeling that like the winter 277 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,640 outside was omnipresent. Like it there were no other 278 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,040 seasons for this kind of other than just the the coldest 279 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,400 merciless Russian winter ever. And yet what's interesting about 280 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,160 the book is he's able to find such a deep sense of warmth 281 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:34,320 throughout the whole book. And in my notes I wrote, warmth 282 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,720 is a deep, delighted consideration of others. 283 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,960 And I think that's kind of like how he lives his life. 284 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,760 And so even in this very, very beginning thing, as he's getting 285 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,760 out all of his possessions, you know, he might be, I'm just 286 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,120 thinking about the horrible situation I had or the fact that 287 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,960 I had a near death experience and you know, what's my life 288 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,120 going to be like? You know, he even in that moment 289 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,960 was considering the guards and going, oh, what is it that they 290 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,120 that they want? You know, and, you know, maybe 291 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,600 he did it selfishly as a way to Curry favor later. 292 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,080 But I think it just kind of speaks to the fact that 293 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,320 throughout the book, he always has a consideration of other 294 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,040 people and what their goals are and what it is that they need at 295 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,040 the moment. And that's what ends up, you 296 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,040 know, really blossoming him as a person inside this prison. 297 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,840 Yeah, I love the fact that he gets up to this attic and the 298 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,080 hotel staff, the people who were essentially his servants 5 299 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,600 minutes ago. His his first reaction is, is 300 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,960 hospitality. And in in general, you see this 301 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,640 in his, his selection of some of the items. 302 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,560 A gentleman fortifies himself with the desk. 303 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,920 All the books. The hospitality element you can. 304 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:53,200 Tell he is a very his character is very disciplined already. 305 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,040 He has a lot of good habits already and his his first 306 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:03,440 response within this tragedy is not even to you know what I'm 307 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,640 just going to give myself a day to grieve before I wrestle with 308 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,720 what to do here. Not that that would be 309 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,800 illegitimate. His first reaction is just to 310 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,200 keep being himself, to keep living out the same habits and 311 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:23,480 like you said, Jeremiah 2 to project that that warmth toward 312 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,839 toward those around him. He doesn't, he doesn't let 313 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:30,240 himself stop being, you know, a lover of the good, the true and 314 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,080 the beautiful and so on for for a moment. 315 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:39,360 Which is really striking to me. I also noticed the interpersonal 316 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:43,240 relationship that he had clearly built with the people of the 317 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,200 hotel, kind of like you said, Brian, they were his servants, 318 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,840 but noticed that when he told them what was going on, they 319 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,640 cheered like they were like. Oh my gosh, our. 320 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,280 Friend did her Yeah. And they when he offered them 321 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,200 Brandy, I noticed too that the guy didn't you know, I don't 322 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,680 remember his name. Andre or something did did not 323 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,400 hesitate. He's like, yeah, I'll pop it. 324 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:10,000 You know, like he just clearly knew that Count Rostov, like 325 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,000 considered him an equal. And clearly that was a very a 326 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,000 very normal thing and they were just all ready to be there with 327 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:17,960 him. And that just, I think 328 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,280 immediately setting that up as a part of the book, that says a 329 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,040 lot about his character. And I think Kristina, you were 330 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,880 the 1 mentioning this before we started recording. 331 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:34,160 But I, I was struck in the opening story today how much 332 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:41,400 this story is framed from not the count losing everything and 333 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:46,480 getting shoved into this closet, but actually this count going 334 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,760 from death to life, right? Like he should have died. 335 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,760 They all thought he wasn't going to come back. 336 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:58,400 And so there's this kind of gratitude and celebration in the 337 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,880 midst of all of the loss. And I think that that's kind of 338 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:09,640 a really nice pattern for this character in his not only in in 339 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,480 like what we see play out, but also in like the kind of habits 340 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,800 he has shaped in himself and the kind of literal character 341 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,600 formation he has. I death to life, perhaps I I do 342 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:27,720 wonder how much I mean, because we talk about like how we need 343 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,400 limitations to kind of give us the kind of freedom that we 344 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,560 crave. But there's there seems to be 345 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,080 and how that can kind of form our character. 346 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,240 But there seems to be already when the story starts, a kind of 347 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,720 character that he already has formed. 348 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,480 So he didn't come into this circumstance kind of as a a 349 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,120 ne'er do Well, Rich, you know, guy who's used to getting his 350 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,600 own way. He came in clearly already with 351 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,560 some kind of understanding of what really mattered in life, 352 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,960 And I think that's worth noting and I think because of that. 353 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:13,240 He had some kind of, I would say maybe like, I guess as a 354 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,440 Christian, we might say it like a gratitude. 355 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,400 And as far as etymology of gratitude, it's, it's, it's like 356 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,720 goes way back. Some say goes to Sanskrit and 357 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,880 never hell pronounce that. But as far as Latin, it's, it's 358 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:32,520 pleasing and pleasant and then of course, full, so full of 359 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,880 pleasure and pleasing and, and pleasants. 360 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,160 And I think when we as Christians, we don't always know 361 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,360 what grateful really means. But I think it also means really 362 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:49,960 recognizing the beauty around us and letting that fill us. 363 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,040 And then that becomes a sense of blessing. 364 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,680 And then that becomes like it, it goes into the this gratitude 365 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,960 for life, for living. And again, like when he chose 366 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,960 the things, it was very intentional and he was mourning 367 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,680 the things on his dresser, but he did grab one thing and they 368 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,600 were his sister's scissors, you know, and you kind of in your 369 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,760 head, you're like, huh, that's interesting. 370 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,640 And you're kind of like, well, I wonder what else was there? 371 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,680 And and so. So yeah, so he has. 372 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,200 This connection to things, but there's also, as you can kind of 373 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,240 see, there is a the things that he chooses do have a higher 374 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,240 entire symbolism. There's something else there. 375 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,440 Things are just things. However, when he connects the 376 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,360 the bigger picture and the people and the things they 377 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:41,040 represent, sort of the gentleman has a desk. 378 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:45,000 Like there's an entire statement there to unpack even in why he 379 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,280 chose that desk, you know? So yeah, I kind of wonder where 380 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,600 where that kind of fits into the bigger picture of who he is. 381 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,440 Yeah. So, so we're talking about this, 382 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,320 this big picture about how his, his disciplines, his own 383 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,120 character formation prior to these unexpected constraints 384 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,560 prepared him for the unexpected constraints. 385 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,560 As we go on, I'll sort of just Telegraph this for you 386 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,720 listeners. I want to kind of progress 387 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,440 through how he responds to different phases of, of of the 388 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,120 constraints. So the first one is just the 389 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,880 initial one. And how is how does who he is, 390 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,280 how has that prepared him for this? 391 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,520 Next, I want us to get into how constraint can drive self 392 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,560 examination, how limits can help can force us to look at 393 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,240 ourselves in in ways that we might not have otherwise. 394 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,920 Third, I want to get into how constraints can drive 395 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,160 creativity. And 4th, how constraints can 396 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,120 clarify purpose because he goes through each of those phases. 397 00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:52,360 So listeners, just just so you have a sense of where this is 398 00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:57,200 going, I think what the the last couple things I've heard from 399 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,760 you are a good transition into and we can still talk about some 400 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,960 of the same topic. But getting into that second 401 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,720 one, how constraints can drive self examination. 402 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,600 Obviously when we're constrained by space, it doesn't always mean 403 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,520 solitude, right? It it does in his case, it could 404 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,680 mean the opposite. Winter, if you have kids, can 405 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:28,200 mean a lot of loud noise, but when limits do permit or even 406 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,080 require solitude, that solitude can force us to truly reckon 407 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,640 with ourselves. I am. 408 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,360 I would love to hear from you all what that what that looks 409 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:43,720 like. Either what you see in the story 410 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:49,880 or how we as as humans can allow the solitude to move our gaze 411 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,760 productively inward. Because obviously there's lots 412 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,120 of unhealthy ways we can get obsessed with ourselves. 413 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:59,360 But if we are, if we're forced by circumstances to kind of look 414 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,440 ourselves in the mirror, what does it look like to to do that? 415 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,360 Well, as far as responding to limits. 416 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,040 Yeah, I'm not even sure it's so much solitude, at least in this 417 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,160 book, because I can't really think of a whole lot of times 418 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,560 where he's really like by himself for very long before 419 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,440 he's either joined by someone or because, I mean, he really does 420 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:22,680 spend a lot of his time like focused on other people. 421 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,960 And I think, you know, the main thing is as he goes through, 422 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,280 like you said, great loss and great limitations. 423 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,560 And the the thing about it is like, it's almost like a triage 424 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,200 for him where he's able to cut out all of the, you know, 425 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,320 surface level stuff. And even, you know, he's forced 426 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,000 so hard that he has to even cut out all the mid level stuff. 427 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,480 And like Christine was saying, like, you know, he can take one 428 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,920 thing off his desk. And so I took the thing of his 429 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,760 sisters, right? And it's like that kind of 430 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,840 limitation and loss was able to give him focus on what actually 431 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,640 really, really, really mattered to him. 432 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,600 And, you know, he was able to form relationships with people 433 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,040 that probably would have just stayed at us as a surface level. 434 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,720 You know, his relationship with the cook and with the maitre-d' 435 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,560 at the restaurant and his relationship with the little 436 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,880 girl that he meets, you know, probably would have been very 437 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,320 kind of surface level relationships that he stated 438 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,840 account. But because he kind of lost 439 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,440 everything, he had to really, really focus on the things that 440 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,480 really mattered. And take them not only 441 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:34,840 relationships, but take all of life from that shallowness into 442 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,320 more depth. The image that's in my head a 443 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,040 lot right now is an illustration that Pascal, at least Pascal, 444 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,320 uses about being on board a ship to explain like the relative 445 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:51,600 external success that can kind of look well, well, when 446 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,120 everyone is at the same task on the boat busying themselves, the 447 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,880 boat is the ship is moving. And so he says, quote, when 448 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,000 everything is moving at the same place, nothing appears to be 449 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,320 moving. The one person who stops shows 450 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,280 up the haste of others, like a fixed point, the busying 451 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,760 activity of being on the same pace, being a count, doing the 452 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,520 things that counts do. We could say that when he gets 453 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,960 off that pace and he stops, there is opportunities that open 454 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,240 up for him to really start practicing what he preaches in a 455 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,720 lot of ways, right? If he's a gentleman, what does 456 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,800 it mean to be a gentleman? It might mean to show respect to 457 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,120 the person next to you, but what does it mean to really show 458 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:39,440 respect to the person next to you? 459 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:45,000 Especially if you are now not equal in status but now you're 460 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,640 serving them right? What does respect really look 461 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,880 like then? That's a second layer that goes 462 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,800 from the shallow public facing into like what's happening 463 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,160 inside of him in order to really show respect. 464 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:05,000 And I don't know if if I finally find found the loose ends of all 465 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,480 those strings and pulled them together. 466 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:13,400 But there is to me something about the count being a count 467 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:19,240 and caring about the values that he saw as noble and then 468 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,880 stopping the pace of what it means to be in the status of 469 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,960 count and yet still live them out. 470 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,440 And how that almost requires A deeper aspect of him in the 471 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,200 shallow public facing count. Yeah, yeah. 472 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,480 The, the it's, it's striking as as the count, as the story goes 473 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,000 on and the count interacts with different people. 474 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,320 I think this is more and more true as the story goes on 475 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,640 because he knows the, the the book follows a good chunk of his 476 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,360 life. And so he actually sees people 477 00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:55,640 who come regularly to the hotel and he essentially watches them 478 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,040 grow up, watches them at different stages in their lives, 479 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:01,600 and it's striking. How the the? 480 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,200 Vast majority of interactions he has with people who are not the 481 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,720 hotel staff, people who are guests at the hotel, They're so 482 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,400 characterized by the way that the the current of the world is 483 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,560 kind of pulling them along, what they're thinking about, what 484 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760 they're worrying about, where they're setting their 485 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,760 aspirations. So much of it is is driven by 486 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:32,200 these external Soviet Russia era developments. 487 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,800 And to the count those things. Yeah. 488 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,160 And to the reader, right, Because you're looking at it 489 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,320 from the Counts perspective. He, on the other hand, has this 490 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,680 posture of like, if the walls keep closing in and I keep 491 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,480 losing one thing after another that I think defines me, who am 492 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,360 I? And there are points in the 493 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,520 story where he struggles with that question, but overall he, 494 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:04,720 he, he hangs on to it from A at a very deep level because of 495 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,600 what you're talking about Sarah, because he's, he's kind of the 496 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,920 the still point who recognizes that no matter how small the 497 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,600 context might get, I still have the ability to be me. 498 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,600 I still have the ability to have a relationship with the people 499 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,680 around me and meaningful relationship. 500 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,440 I mean, and you Fast forward a few years, he's learned 501 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,720 needlework with Marina and he's learned, learned waitering and 502 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,280 hospitality with Andre and he's learned menu planning with Emil 503 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,800 the cook. And so in a weird way, yeah, 504 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:49,240 he's he's he's turned himself outward now in his quest for 505 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,040 self examination, essentially. Essentially he's learned to 506 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,880 discover himself by doing his duty. 507 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,080 I guess would be a way of framing it rather than by just 508 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,400 sort of navel gazing on the one hand or going with the current 509 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:11,880 of what's going on on the other. Yeah, I mean, I would say there 510 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,040 is something about and I don't know, I don't, I honestly don't 511 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,760 know how you get there. I mean, it might just be lots of 512 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,760 prayer and discipline and what not, but I think there's a point 513 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,640 and and I've definitely learned this the hard way in my own 514 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,960 life. But there's a point where you're 515 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:36,040 so tired of self pity and just hating your circumstances or 516 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,920 yourself for the things that you find you're in, find yourself 517 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,520 in. And there's a point where you 518 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,600 have to go out either into an outside world. 519 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,320 For me, it's literally stepping out into my backyard to look at 520 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,800 like life outside my, my 4 walls. 521 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,720 But anything in Count Rostov's case, it's, it's going to 522 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,040 people, right? Going to relationships, people. 523 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,320 He might not necessarily as count as a rich guy have truly 524 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,480 encountered to know the life of a seamstress, to know the life 525 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,840 of a cook, to know the life of a server. 526 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,720 And and there's something about allowing the things outside 527 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,520 ourselves, I think to fully enchant us. 528 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,200 And I think enchantment is kind of where a lot of this fullness 529 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,280 and living into ourselves comes from. 530 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,800 And I think we do have to let those small things. 531 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,480 Take hold of us. By emptying ourselves first, 532 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,120 there is a point where we have to sort of step outside 533 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,080 ourselves to let other things enchant us. 534 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,200 It's the looking at different things that the people around 535 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,600 us. Count Rostov, in his case, it 536 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,480 would be, you know, learning needlework, the life of a of a 537 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,160 seamstress. It's learning the life of a 538 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,240 server or the cook. And if he had been that rich, 539 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,360 you know, man, he probably would not have felt so deep into their 540 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,000 lives. And and I know that's something 541 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,280 that that's hard for a lot of us when we're. 542 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,000 Just so consumed. With ourselves. 543 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,080 And I think there's something about emptying ourselves and 544 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,760 letting enchantment fill us. And that's where we find our 545 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,040 true contentment. That's where we find the 546 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,640 pleasance of life. And so sometimes I think that 547 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,240 that contentment and gratitude even, you know, feeling full of 548 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,840 pleasure, right, as the etymology would suggest or 549 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,600 suggest, comes from a quietude, right? 550 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:41,640 It comes from a letting oneself be approached by the things of 551 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,240 this world or the beauties of this world that we wouldn't 552 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,840 necessarily open ourselves to. Yeah. 553 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:57,360 Well, that's, that's kind of bumping up against our Third 554 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,280 Point about the, the relationship between limits and 555 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,400 creativity. And then I suspect all of you 556 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,920 have thoughts on this one. But I think about there's a, 557 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,480 there's a point in the book where he's, he's befriended this 558 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,080 little girl and, and she has essentially a skeleton key to 559 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,240 the whole hotel. And the result of that before 560 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,280 getting the key, like he, he thought he knew the hotel. 561 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,000 He'd literally had lived there for years. 562 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:29,360 But all of a sudden when he has this key, he, he just, he 563 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,920 explores the underbelly of it all the back rooms and all the 564 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,240 secret passageways and the, the physical boundaries of the hotel 565 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,560 actually drive him into this place of creativity and 566 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,920 exploration sort of inward and downward rather than outward. 567 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,600 So rather than getting broader, he's getting deeper. 568 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,960 He has to work within these walls, but he discovers that 569 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,640 within the walls is much bigger than he thought he was. 570 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,720 What else have you guys noticed from the story or or elsewhere 571 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,280 about the relationship between limits and creativity? 572 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,200 To to tie what you just said, Brian, also to what I was 573 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,000 thinking about with where Christina took us, there's 574 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,639 something to me coming together here with the concept of 575 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,880 excellence. I see the count as being someone 576 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,320 who strives for excellence in all these things, But something 577 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,920 that that the whole building seems to be a maybe a symbol for 578 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:35,679 in that is that he puts his love of excellence into the things 579 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:42,280 that are inward or downward, as opposed to kind of the status of 580 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,639 authority or of, yeah, identity in the world. 581 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,000 He goes to the lower things, the humble things and the inward 582 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,880 workings of the the hotel that that isn't for the posh almost 583 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,560 right. And it's in those constraints 584 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,800 that I feel like the things that make him who he is, the, the, 585 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,360 the kind of character he came into the situation with like 586 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,920 flourish, right? It's like the humble work of the 587 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,160 service in excellence that allows, like you were saying, 588 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,520 Christina, allows for us to be filled with the beauty around us 589 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,720 and things of that nature. So I don't know your house. 590 00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,240 I'm calling it a house. Your comments, Brian, about the 591 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:33,320 hotel kind of grounded that for me in a way that is abstract, 592 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,760 but that's a very concrete example of like inward and 593 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,760 downward. Yeah, I mean elephant in the 594 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,440 room. I, I, I when Christina and I 595 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:50,760 tried to go on a a vacation in 2021 in Europe and I tested 596 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,320 positive for COVID right after we landed. 597 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:00,600 And so our, our wonderful like 10th anniversary vacation turned 598 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,720 into 10 days mandatory quarantine by myself in a hotel 599 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:09,280 room that was like fairly better than prison, both in terms of 600 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,080 the food that was delivered and in terms of the actual amenities 601 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,760 of, of the box. It was bad, y'all, It was really 602 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,400 bad. And they put her in a separate 603 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,760 room, but she hadn't tested positive. 604 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,800 So she could at least kind of venture out, but we were 605 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,600 completely separated. 12 days. And I first of all, I did not 606 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,200 handle the initial shock at nearly as well as the count 607 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,760 handled his initial shock. But this story was really 608 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:42,840 inspiring to me in in that experience because Kyle Rostov 609 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,280 had been through essentially the same thing, only much worse for 610 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,080 much longer. And I was able to think about 611 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,760 how did he handle this? So like, one of my first 612 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,800 reactions was to kind of turn to the disciplines that I had 613 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,400 learned and in some cases sort of put them on on steroids. 614 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,040 How can I order my day in a way that is meaningful? 615 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,200 So I actually set limits on screen time and stuff like that. 616 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,520 How can I what, what books can I read? 617 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,080 Thankfully, I still had a Kindle at very slow but functional 618 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,120 Internet access. And what does this look like in 619 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,200 terms of staying in shape? And what does this look like in 620 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,160 terms of daily prayer? And it wasn't me trying to be 621 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,920 holy. That was me trying to reckon 622 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:28,360 with my circumstances. But but like the next place that 623 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,360 I turned was this direction of of. 624 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,320 Creativity. So there were books I was 625 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:36,880 reading I wasn't wouldn't have read otherwise. 626 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,120 They were sort of writing, doing things I wouldn't have done 627 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,960 otherwise, and I kept coming back. 628 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,240 You wouldn't otherwise have played lots of online Scrabble 629 00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:48,960 with your wife. That's also true. 630 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,120 See Social reaching out to the people around you. 631 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,920 Probably one of your most memorable vacations and you 632 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,520 know, great story to tell too. Yeah. 633 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,480 Yeah. But I mean it, it it's my story 634 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,200 was one thing that Count Ralston has that I didn't have other 635 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,640 than, yeah, digital interaction with Christina. 636 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,280 There's a great Wendell Berry quote that's he says our human 637 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,560 and earthly limits, properly understood, are not confinements 638 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,320 but rather inducements to fullness of relationship and 639 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,880 meaning. Creativity springs from limits 640 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,120 and, and I love that Ralston has that instinct, as we've noted he 641 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,680 does. He has conducted himself even as 642 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,000 an aristocrat in a way that has built relationships with these 643 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,360 people who on paper were his underlings. 644 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,160 And the result of his limitations is he just pours 645 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,360 himself into those relationships. 646 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,840 And the meaning in each relationship that was goes 647 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,040 deeper and deeper as do the skills that he develops along 648 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,360 the way. What are the other thoughts do 649 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,320 you guys have related to this creativity topic? 650 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:12,360 Well, I mean, so I've, I think you can really see this a lot if 651 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,480 you study any kind of filmmaking, because time and 652 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,760 time and time again, you'll hear directors and writers and film 653 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,120 makers basically say, you know, it was actually so much easier 654 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,960 to make something when I had a lower budget, you know, or when 655 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,960 I had, you know, no actor. And so I had to like, you know, 656 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,600 come up with something on the fly. 657 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,000 And I think that, you know, when you're when you're creating 658 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,720 something, you want to create something new, right? 659 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,640 But human nature is like water, right? 660 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,760 It just goes the path of least resistance. 661 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,520 It's always going to just flow down the path of least 662 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,480 resistance like everything else, right? 663 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,960 And then when something blocks you, that's when you drift off 664 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,240 and cut new interesting paths. And I think any time that you're 665 00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:02,120 trying to make something. You know, all of the limitations 666 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,880 and problems that you have are actually gifts. 667 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,440 They're gifts to get you to somewhere that's new and 668 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,960 interesting. It's also just very human. 669 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:18,760 We, we're not Count Rostov, but we all do have a life that is 670 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,480 confined to particularity. I do not live Brian's life and 671 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,680 Brian doesn't live mine, nor does Jeremiah, right. 672 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,720 And you guys have different families with different needs as 673 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:33,560 Dubai or someone who's single and the freedoms they have or 674 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,600 the limitations they have. I mean, if we think about the 675 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,920 the story, the the creation story in Genesis, God makes 676 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,400 everything and it's expansive and abundant. 677 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,200 And yet he gives us a little garden. 678 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,440 And I, I put the word little on it, but it's definitely not the 679 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,520 whole world, right? It's manageable and it's 680 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,800 something to begin with. And I think that if we all see 681 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:01,200 our lives as the garden God's given us and as the count sees 682 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,040 his little space as what has given to him, like you're 683 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,160 saying, Jeremiah, we stop thinking that we have these 684 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,640 endless possibilities with a big budget as a filmmaker. 685 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,840 And we just start working within the confines and seeing those as 686 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,800 opportunities because they're intentionally given to us by 687 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,360 God. Maybe because what others 688 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,560 intended for evil he will use for good, but they are still 689 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,600 given to us by God. You've got to the cutting out 690 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,680 all of the excess in your life is a painful thing because we 691 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,960 we, you know, love all of these things. 692 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,880 And you know, if you think about the count, like everything that 693 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,760 he lost, all of his wealth, his status, his, you know, 694 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,000 traveling, adventurous family, everything like that. 695 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,280 I mean, he lost some real things. 696 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,120 And, you know, a lot of times it is those things that, you know, 697 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,480 I, I guess it's just, it's never easy to get down to the nitty 698 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:53,840 gritty. We're all kind of like hoarders, 699 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,280 right? Where we've got, you know, 700 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,160 million things and we're like, Oh yeah, we got AI got to get 701 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,320 rid of all this stuff. I'm going to take this one thing 702 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,800 out. And then, you know, everything 703 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,880 should be better when you've got like just rooms full of all the 704 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,560 excess stuff that we collect. And so, you know, those those 705 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,680 times of loss and limitations are always really difficult 706 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,120 because all the stuff that we're losing are things that we we 707 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,880 love or like. But that's the only way to 708 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,880 really get down to what really matters. 709 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,000 You know, the famous was Hemingway quote writers like, 710 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,480 you know, you've got to Kill Your Darlings. 711 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,960 You got to cut your story in places that really hurt. 712 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,960 And that's the only way you're going to get down to actually 713 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,000 the really good part of the book, because you just collect 714 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,200 so many things that that you want. 715 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,760 I don't know. I really, I, I, I love that and 716 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,640 thinking of it in terms of the kenosis, right, the self 717 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,720 emptying. And I think there's actually a 718 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:50,720 couple quotes from, from church fathers and the Maximus the 719 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:55,880 confessor had a great point. He said that aesthetic 720 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,720 restraint, or I'm sorry, aesthetic constraints, kind of 721 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:00,920 like thinking of Count Rostov, right? 722 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,920 Going from that beautiful, beautiful room and salon and 723 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,040 dining room and bedroom to this tiny little room in the attic, 724 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,000 right? And getting rid of all the stuff 725 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,880 that he had to anyway. Aesthetic constraints clear away 726 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,280 attachments that clouds us up. He says. 727 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,640 They don't create virtue, but they reveal God's natural 728 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,640 goodness already present. And then John of the Cross, I 729 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,800 love his famous maxim here. He says to reach satisfaction in 730 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,160 all desire, its possession in nothing, to come to the 731 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,680 knowledge of all desire the knowledge of nothing, to come to 732 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:46,240 possess all desire, the possession of nothing, to arrive 733 00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:50,120 at being all desire to be nothing. 734 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,160 Yeah, there's that consistent pattern in in the the ancient 735 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,560 writings of we had a good conversation about this actually 736 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:04,360 in the the Christian Imagination class that I'm teaching. 737 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,480 Several people were asking about this, why were some of the the 738 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,800 Mystics so extreme in their asceticism? 739 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,640 And we had a conversation about some of this, their specific 740 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,480 circumstances. But one of the things that's 741 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,440 that's pretty consistent in the actual teaching from those 742 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:27,000 people is not that I think it was Bonaventure who said that. 743 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,520 Like it's not an end in itself. Poverty, this limits of means 744 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,160 and space and whatever it is are not an end in itself. 745 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:41,360 But there, there are really good means of ensuring 2 essential 746 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,920 Christian virtues, the fundamental humility that every 747 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,160 Christian should have before God and the charity that is the 748 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,280 Christian life. Or this isn't an ancient quote, 749 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,040 but I think, I think I wrote this one down. 750 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,120 Yeah, Simone Weil, she said. I love this quote. 751 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,320 Grace fills empty spaces, but it can only enter where there is a 752 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,880 void to receive it. And it is grace he knows. 753 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:13,800 Which makes this void. That sounds like what Flannery 754 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,720 O'Connor must have tried to write in all of her short 755 00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:19,560 stories over and over and over again. 756 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,040 And that void and cutting, that cutting into that space and 757 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,640 making room can be really painful. 758 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,200 And I think you mentioned this already in the beginning, Brian, 759 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,680 very early. Like we, we give lip service to 760 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,480 this concept, but when it happens inside of us, it's 761 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,760 painful. And Jeremiah, you just said like 762 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:45,040 for good reason, it is painful. You know, there's something 763 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:51,120 truly good that might be lost. And yet I'm, I'm kind of pulling 764 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,400 all this together for myself, Christina, The concept of 765 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,640 letting beauty fill that. And that's grace, you know, 766 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,080 that's, that's really, really comforting to me as someone who 767 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:07,760 grieves first and then can stay there. 768 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,360 It's kind of, I think extra interesting just in our current 769 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,720 kind of American culture too, because we really do have like 770 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,080 a, you know, lives of excess in a lot of ways, whether it's, you 771 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,880 know, our material possessions or just, even, you know, there's 772 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,280 a million things trying to get every second of our attention 773 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,760 and time with entertainment and activities and, and things like 774 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,440 that. And it's just, it's interesting 775 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,920 to see kind of the cultural backlash to that too. 776 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,640 And like what people are trying to do to to figure it out. 777 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,720 It's funny, as you were talking, I was like the real Christian 778 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,040 theological thing I'm thinking of is the movie Fight Club from 779 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,760 the 90s where the guy is like, you know, it starts out with him 780 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,320 just saying how much he just loves his apartment and all the 781 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,760 things he buys it and then he blows it up, you know, and it's 782 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,160 like pretending to be really sad. 783 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,520 But it's really because like, you know, as in her conscience 784 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,400 is like, you know, you, you work a job you hate to buy things you 785 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,680 don't need to impress people that you can't even respect. 786 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,760 And, you know, it's like you're just, I think we do feel like 787 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,600 we're trapped by everything, by the lives that we built around 788 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,040 ourselves and the only thing that's going to save us, as if 789 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,320 it all just completely explodes. And maybe that's why stories 790 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,120 like this resonate with us because, you know, in some way 791 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,480 we're like, man, you know, I wish I could get out of this. 792 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,640 And it's hard, You know, people that are hoarders, they need 793 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,280 someone else to come in and like tear everything out to let them 794 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,720 start fresh because it's really hard to do on your own. 795 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,880 If if we go to the fourth point though, about clarifying 796 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,800 purpose, the one thing that I do want to note too though, and 797 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:48,200 this was a conviction that I had this past weekend in terms of 798 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,360 what was happening in my life. And then I'll also, as I was 799 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:55,360 reflecting on these notes, I am the wife of someone in the Navy. 800 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,960 And so someone else very external from us, well, 801 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,560 sometimes on a whim, decide where we're going to be. 802 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,840 And, you know, there's a sort of ease to having really, really 803 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:08,560 intense constraints that are always new. 804 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,760 And there's a freedom there that I think goes well with the kind 805 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,440 of cultural mill you have grown up in. 806 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:21,280 What I realized is scary to me is being someone who lived in 807 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,720 the same town with the same people and I'm constrained by 808 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:29,440 the needs of my family, immediate or but I think it's 809 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:34,200 the commonplace and the mundane. Brian, you quoted where 810 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:40,480 Dostoevsky says the poor envy and and I think there's a 811 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:46,680 poorness in monotony, like we can be poor of new experiences 812 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,600 and the envious of something new. 813 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,120 So we might be sitting around feeling like, OK, Jeremiah, but 814 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,120 I don't have that much excess. I actually am very sad with how 815 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:03,360 little I have and how there's not opportunity coming my way. 816 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,160 And I think there's a difference between, like, the cutting of 817 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,160 things that are filling up our spaces, metaphorically or 818 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:11,840 figuratively. But then there's also the 819 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:16,120 reckoning of what do we do in what feels a little bit more 820 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,840 empty than it perhaps should be. So I don't know if I'm just 821 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,160 trying to get in another angle of something we've already said, 822 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,160 so I'm repeating it. But it did feel important to say 823 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,600 that like it's not just cutting off of the excess of, but it's 824 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,400 noticing the gaps and it's noticing the losses that are 825 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:41,160 present and asking God, what do you want with these spaces and 826 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,080 how can they be opportunities for you to work in my life? 827 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:45,560 Yeah. Oh yeah. 828 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,640 I mean, definitely loss isn't the the end all of it. 829 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,840 In fact, you know, to bring us back to Fight Club, you know, it 830 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,720 didn't end well for this guy. You know, he got rid of all the 831 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,760 excess junk in his life and then was left with, you know, 832 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,640 violence and depravity and and you know, it was not not good, 833 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,240 right, But you look at like the and I I think almost he maybe he 834 00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:11,000 had more of an envious response, whereas, you know, all 835 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,880 throughout the book, I can't think of a single time that 836 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,840 count. I'll stop envied anyone. 837 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,080 And again, it was that exact opposite. 838 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,760 It was that that warmth. It was that he he was delighted 839 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,320 to consider other people. One of my favorite scenes in the 840 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,920 book just real quick is like, you know, he's at a dinner by 841 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,120 himself alone and there's a couple that's sitting next to 842 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:33,240 him. There's like a young man who's 843 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:35,480 trying to kind of impress his date, right. 844 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,840 And you know, I mean, if it was me, I'd probably be there like 845 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,360 I'm alone. I'm never going to find love. 846 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,560 I'm stuck in this hotel. But instead he's going, Oh man, 847 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,440 I bet he's having trouble figuring out the perfect wine 848 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,720 pairing. And I happen to know the perfect 849 00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:51,320 wine pairing. And he's like rooting for him 850 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,040 the whole time. He's just like focused on 851 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:57,200 wanting this, this young man to succeed and then ends up 852 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,120 intervening and and, you know, basically like, you know, I can 853 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,000 save this whole date for this guy, you know, by sharing my 854 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,960 expertise with him and, and stepping in. 855 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,240 And it just, I think it really speaks to that, you know, even 856 00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:14,960 though he's sitting there alone for the 900th time in the row, 857 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,800 eating the same thing at the same table, you know, he was 858 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,040 again focused on somebody else and and how he could bring 859 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,040 something delightful into their lives. 860 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,320 You know, this, this love that he had for fine wine. 861 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,880 It's perfect pairing. And, you know, it's not the most 862 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,840 expensive, but it's going to fit because of this. 863 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,600 And it's going to help your conversation, you know, this 864 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:35,360 type of thing. It's that. 865 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,560 Yeah. I mean, he had, he had a 866 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,760 delighted consideration of other people and that was the whole 867 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,640 difference. You know, that's why he was able 868 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,720 to lose everything and instead gain so much more. 869 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,160 I love that it's funny because it it actually reminds me of a 870 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:56,640 sort of a dual Bible quote here that they almost seem to 871 00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,240 contradict each other, but not especially in context of that 872 00:51:59,240 --> 00:52:01,920 story. Jeremiah And you know, it's, 873 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,320 it's when Jesus says it's, you know, it's harder for a rich man 874 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,520 to get into heaven than it is for a camel to go through the 875 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,760 eye of a needle. But he also says, you know what? 876 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,640 Father does not desire to give good gifts to his children. 877 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:20,160 And so there's this beautiful contrast of, yes, I do want to 878 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,360 give you good things. And you are supposed to want 879 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,200 them and desire them and love them. 880 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,920 You know, and, and you see here the count who has had this love 881 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:32,840 and you know, of fine wines still enjoys it. 882 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,320 He's he, but he's able to give it to someone else in this way 883 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,720 that he might not necessarily have have done before. 884 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,680 And so there is this. He does enjoy this good gift and 885 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,800 he has it, but he also is ready to give it away. 886 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:51,120 Partly because you know of, of his, his lack of, you know, 887 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,600 things. Yeah, yeah. 888 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:59,400 And, and, and I think this orientation that he has one of 889 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,360 my favorite sort of narrative turns in the book. 890 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,440 Every chapter in this book is just delightful by itself. 891 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,040 The prose is beautiful. There are so many great little 892 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,080 observations about human nature along the way. 893 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,280 First time I read this book, I read it really slowly because 894 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,440 sometimes I would read not even a chapter, I'd read like 2 895 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,920 pages. And those 2 pages were just so 896 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,840 full of beauty and richness that I would just close the book and 897 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,560 think about them for. A while I remember that and. 898 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,040 I would just pick up, pick it up again and repeat the So it took 899 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:32,600 me a while to get through it. But he has this, this, this 900 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,480 warmth toward others. But it's not it's not 901 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,320 obligation. I mean, it might be in a, in a 902 00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,040 sort of an existential sense, but it's sort of like, like the 903 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,400 to like the couple on the day. That's kind of his choice, 904 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:47,760 right? He didn't have to intervene. 905 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,560 But as the book goes on, he starts to run into these 906 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:57,040 situations where unexpectedly, for someone who has no family 907 00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,600 and is under house arrest the rest of his life, he starts to 908 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,840 encounter obligation. He learned some of these skills 909 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,240 with the hotel staff. And next thing you know, he's 910 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:07,200 actually helping run the hotel with staff. 911 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,880 He's responsible for the the tables all being perfect. 912 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:11,280 Before the guests come in for dinner. 913 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,240 There's a key moment in the book where something terrible's about 914 00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:16,320 to happen. And what? 915 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,000 And the the thing that saves the whole situation is a total 916 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,560 stranger asks him to care for some honey bees. 917 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:32,400 And then the the last portion of the book, which I won't spoil, 918 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,240 is he's actually asked to care for another person, another 919 00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:40,040 human soul who has to rely on him totally. 920 00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:46,080 And there's a great quote about that where he says that he's 921 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,640 talking about parents in general and he's not a parent. 922 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,920 But he says in the end, a parent's responsibility could 923 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:57,800 not be more simple to bring its child safely into adulthood so 924 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,160 that she could have a chance to experience a life of purpose 925 00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:06,240 and, God willing, contentment. If that's what, if that's what 926 00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:11,480 parenting is, He has this opportunity and obligation, as 927 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:17,960 it turns out, to basically to pass on what he has learned to 928 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,200 someone else. And that ends up being the hinge 929 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,120 point that changes the whole story. 930 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,480 All right, we are wrapping up for the day because we can talk 931 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,040 about this book for hours and we're not going to. 932 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,560 But any parting, the thoughts on anything we've talked about 933 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,320 haven't talked about or the book itself that you want to leave 934 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:44,360 our listeners with? What you were saying, you know, 935 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,120 as far as parenting, I think at least for me in my life, this 936 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,160 was probably where I learned this lesson the most, just 937 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:54,000 because when I had kids, it, it was very difficult and there was 938 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:55,880 a lot of extenuating circumstances. 939 00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,320 And, you know, I, I, I felt in that moment when I started 940 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:00,880 having children that I lost everything. 941 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,520 All the things that I really enjoyed about my life. 942 00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:06,120 I lost, you know, whether it was with the way that I had a 943 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,400 relationship with my wife, all my different hobbies and 944 00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,720 interests and dreams and passions and things I was going 945 00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,880 to go do, you know, it just basically all got completely 946 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,880 derailed. And, you know, it was, I felt 947 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,240 kind of like the count where I was like trapped in this thing. 948 00:56:19,240 --> 00:56:22,640 And, you know, it wasn't until years later that, you know, I 949 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,440 was able to then have the perspective and see like how 950 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,480 much, you know, I had gained that I could never think of. 951 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,400 And you know, that that transitional process where you 952 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,560 kind of lose all of your sort of favorite things to find newer, 953 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:39,760 greater, richer things. As you know, it's like kind of a 954 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,960 part of growing up and becoming a, a mature person. 955 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:47,200 And it's funny, I always tell any of my friends that have kids 956 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,280 this because I was like kind of the first of my friend group to 957 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,720 ever have children and stuff. And so I would basically like 958 00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:56,360 tell my friends that, look, you know, everyone says having 959 00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:58,240 children is like the best thing that will ever happen to you, 960 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,560 but they don't tell you is that having children is also the 961 00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,680 worst thing that will ever happen to you. 962 00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:03,960 You know, it costs you everything. 963 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,240 Your whole life is going to change. 964 00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:07,440 You know, it's like buckle up, buddy type of thing. 965 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:14,240 Then once you have like the kind of longer experience, you know, 966 00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:16,640 then you're able to see, you know, like, you know, every 967 00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,080 parent for the most part, you know, says I would wouldn't 968 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,040 change having children for the world, you know, because we're 969 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,360 able to see that that great thing. 970 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,640 And I think it is because only because it costs us so much to 971 00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,920 have children. And in the book, again, spoilers 972 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,040 and such, but, you know, he kind of goes through that same thing. 973 00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,440 And there's that moment in the book when he's like, faced with 974 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,440 a choice of what he's going to do, where he's like, ah, man, I 975 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,800 can't sit in my favorite chair. And I like, you know, all of the 976 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,800 little pleasures that he had kind of regained in his hotel, 977 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,240 like he had to lose them all again, you know. 978 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,800 But then again, 10 years after that, you know, he looks back at 979 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,200 it going, man, this is so much better than I ever thought it 980 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,680 could be. Yeah, it's a beautiful picture 981 00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,280 of self sacrifice for something else better. 982 00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,440 Yeah. Yeah, parenting is such a great 983 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:09,680 way to practice self sacrifice, to be forced into it, you know? 984 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:18,080 Well, reading for this episode was so rich for for all of us, 985 00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:23,400 but both the book itself and some of the theological writings 986 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,400 that we encountered around it. So I think it's appropriate to 987 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:31,560 leave with a a couple of good quotations. 988 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,080 Not from the book. That just didn't work into the 989 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:39,400 conversation yet, but I think they put a nice bow on this 990 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,120 conversation. The book is not told from an 991 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,960 explicitly Christian perspective, but we're 992 00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,280 approaching it from that perspective for for obvious 993 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:47,560 reasons. So we're I think we're putting 994 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,800 11 little extra layer of spiritual meaning to some of 995 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,680 this. And so, all right, quote number 996 00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:01,480 one, this is Francois Fennelon at a Roman Catholic French 997 00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,000 Archbishop and poet from the 17th century. 998 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:09,880 He said it is when God appears to have abandoned us that we 999 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,520 must abandoned ourselves, most holy to God. 1000 00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,800 I need to write that one down somewhere because I keep 1001 00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,480 thinking of it in important moments and not being able to 1002 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,640 quite remember it just right. But it's so Dang. 1003 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,640 And I'll let Julian of Norwich. It's been about a year since we 1004 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:29,000 did our episode on Julian of Norwich. 1005 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,880 So it's appropriate, I think, to give her the last word. 1006 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:37,000 She said, he said not thou shalt not be tempested. 1007 00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,560 Thou shalt not be travailed. Thou shalt not be diseased. 1008 00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,680 But he said thou shalt not be overcome. 1009 00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,640 Thanks for joining me, guys. Thanks for listening friends and 1010 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:56,280 we will see you next time. The Imagination Redeemed podcast 1011 00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,200 as a production of the Anselm Society. 1012 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,480 It's easy to see this world as disenchanted and to give up hope 1013 01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,200 that there's more. But you were made to see the 1014 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,400 world with the eyes of heaven and to live a bountiful life 1015 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,400 that participates in the life of God, like in the great stories. 1016 01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:16,360 To help make the show possible, go to anselmsociety.org/podcast 1017 01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:21,000 25 and make a donation. The Anselm Society is a place 1018 01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,960 where you can come in and experience that beauty, joyful 1019 01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:29,720 celebration, and ancient wisdom and go out renewed, bringing 1020 01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,520 that life to your vocation, home, and church. 1021 01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,760 Learn more at anselmsociety.org and join us next time as we 1022 01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,680 pursue a renaissance of the Christian imagination together.