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Welcome to the Imagination 
Redeemed podcast where we follow

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the great stories further up and
further in in pursuit of the 

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life of Christ. 
Welcome back. 

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We have been talking about we 
songs, Brian Brown, Matthew 

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Clark, Terry Moon. 
We have finished our longer 

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discussion about the way that 
those that that we songs connect

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us to God as in us. 
So we talked about how they 

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connect us to him vertically, 
how they connect us to the 

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people of God chronologically, 
and how they connect us to the 

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people of God on on either side 
of us and, and around the world 

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now. 
Horizontally. 

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Horizontally and and that's of 
course, in the context of of 

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Christian we songs, there are 
folk, we songs that have nothing

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to do with any religion. 
There are we songs in other 

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religions, but that's the the 
Christian version of them. 

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Now we're going to do something 
that I think will be a little 

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bit shorter conversation. 
And then it's to talk about a 

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little bit of the how of it by 
looking at our second general 

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principle, which is that we 
songs are written on purpose to 

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give us a voice in God's story. 
In other words, to empower us to

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sing. 
So the application of this will 

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be a little bit different for, 
say, one of your songs for 

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something that's written for 
individual voice. 

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And so I would value your 
perspective on this as we go. 

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So, so I will, I'll, I'll, I'll 
give us the 33 principles again 

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and we can talk through them. 
But some of the things that I 

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will think of most directly are 
going to be for songs that are 

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designed for corporate singing, 
designed for us to sing 

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together. 
So there's a little bit of a 

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different application for them 
in, in other contexts. 

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So fair warning. 
OK, so we are on the first of 

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our three points point #4 total.
And that is that a we song is 

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written for voice first, not the
composer's favorite instrument. 

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So it's purpose is to help you 
sing. 

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It's purpose is not to be a hit 
on the radio. 

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It's purpose is not to please a 
producer. 

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It probably did if it got 
recorded, but that wasn't the 

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primary reason it was getting 
created. 

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The the melody is typically 
going to stay in or close to 1 

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octave and in a comfortable 
middle range. 

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So it's not written for somebody
with a super deep bass voice and

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only they can go that low. 
It's not written for a super 

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thin high counter tenor voice 
and only they can go that high. 

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And it's not it's not there's 
not too much jumping all over 

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the place. 
It doesn't require you to hit 

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notes only dolphins can hear, 
and it doesn't depend on having,

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I would say a full band or even 
1 specific instrument to sound 

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good. 
The instruments that are brought

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to the table either in a 
particular recording or in a 

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particular live singing setting 
are there to accompany the 

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choir, that is the people. 
Again, this is in the context of

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corporate singing. 
It's not the people singing 

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along with whatever the band 
happens to be doing or feels 

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like doing, right? 
The the band is not accompanying

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the primary singer in the 
context of a corporate singing 

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environment. 
All of them are accompanying 

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whether it's a an organ or a 
piano or a full band or whatever

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they're they're accompanying the
singers. 

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That is the the congregation, 
the group of people that's 

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gathered there to sing. 
So that. 

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I mean, I just eliminated almost
all pop music, right? 

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Not because pop music is bad, 
not because we hate pop music, 

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but because they're. 
They're usually not wee songs. 

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Yeah, or sometimes they can be. 
They just sort of accidentally 

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fell into being one. 
But someone that's writing a wee

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song on purpose is going to be 
thinking about it's it's written

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in a posture of hospitality for 
the normal singer's voice. 

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I love that word. 
Yeah. 

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Hospitality. 
OK, so you think about the that 

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what it really means at its 
heart is making space, making 

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space for someone else. 
And that's what a good We song 

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does. 
Yeah. 

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And, and there are a lot of 
really practical things like 

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you're talking about. 
Like I remember when I was 

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leading worship that that was a 
sometimes I would change the 

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melody. 
I will. 

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Often times I would have to 
lower the key. 

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Yeah. 
Or there would be songs that I 

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would reject because the melody 
might maybe for 2/3 of the song,

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the melody was in a normal range
within that other third. 

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It would it would go somewhere 
that only a professional singer 

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could handle. 
And I'm going to lose everybody.

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Nobody's going to be able to 
participate. 

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And so, you know, it takes a lot
of consideration to to pick the 

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songs that are going to be most 
hospitable for these people 

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because the point is not me 
performing a song that sounds 

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cool from the front or wherever 
I am, but facilitating or making

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it easy for people to enter in. 
Yeah, I, I like what you said to

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Brian about the the band is not 
the primary thing and that the 

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people sing, are just singing 
along with the band. 

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I like to say a lot to my team 
when we're preparing is that the

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primary instrument that we have 
at our worship is the voice of 

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the people and we're 
accompanying them, really. 

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Yeah. 
And, and it's one one of the 

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challenges, and I've talked to a
lot of contemporary worship 

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leaders that have this problem. 
They'll try to say that to the 

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congregation, but the songs that
they are choosing and the type 

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of music that they are using 
makes them out a liar really 

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hard, right? 
Like, hey, we're just here to 

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accompany you now. 
Try to keep up while we sing 

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something that wasn't written 
for you and that we're having a 

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heck of a lot of fun playing 
without you and that you can't 

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where you can't hear yourself 
sing because the amplification 

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is so is too right, right. 
So like this is this is the 

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probably the closest we're going
to get to entering into the 

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worship wars in this in this 
conversation right where it's 

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we're not having a conversation 
about what type of music is or 

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what type of instrument is 
appropriate in church. 

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What we are doing though is, is,
is saying that at a certain 

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point, if 60708090 percent of 
your assumptions the the the 

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instruments, the style of music,
where the song came from 

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production factory wise and how 
it's all executed. 

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If, if, if almost all of that is
coming from a pop music 

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perspective, you are going to 
have to do some really heavy 

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lifting to foster good 
congregational singing because 

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you're fighting against the form
you have chosen every step of 

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the way. 
So you're talking about the 

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you're talking about the Prince,
the poll behind this, not like 

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rules about and you can't use 
that instrument because I think 

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if you read Psalm 150, you, you 
have to kind of come to the 

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conclusion that, OK, there 
really is no instrument that's 

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off limits that cannot be used 
in worship. 

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It will OK. 
Put that little cartoon thing 

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that makes like a It's not 
Control the line, Sir, I. 

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Would be very reluctant to bring
a bagpipe in to the building, 

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but but you know we're. 
There's a cultural context 

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piece, right? 
Part of the argument that for 

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more contemporary instruments is
is is the cultural context 

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piece, right? 
Oh, this is how everyone relates

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to music. 
Now. 

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But if what you are bringing in 
with those styles, with those 

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instruments, with the actual 
songs is a set of assumptions, 

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including congregational 
assumptions about what that 

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music is for and who's supposed 
to sing it and how they're 

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supposed to sing it, again, 
you're you're, you're swimming 

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up straight. 
You're making it hard to to 

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foster a we song environment fun
to do what we're talking about 

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here, which is giving people a 
voice in God's story. 

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Again, that's not to say plenty 
of those songs aren't beautiful.

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That's not to say there is an 
incredible execution of a lot of

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them that. 
But we are saying if your goal 

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is to give people a voice in 
God's story, when you're doing 

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an entire genre of music that's 
not written for the human voice 

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1st and has all the assumptions,
a different set of assumptions 

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going into it. 
Everybody involved is is 

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actually swimming upstream if 
when it comes to the goal of us 

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developing our ability to lift 
our voices to God. 

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Yeah, and I think hospitality is
a great term. 

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And maybe, you know, that day of
worship leader, if you might 

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think of it in terms of like a 
musical host and someone who is,

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you know, if you come into my 
house and it's the first time 

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you're in my house, I'm going to
say like the kitchen is here, 

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the bathroom is through that 
door. 

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Make yourself at home. 
Here's where the glasses are, 

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here's where the drinks are. 
You know, I'm, I'm helping you 

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navigate something that is 
unfamiliar to you. 

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And, and I want to do that. 
Well, I want to be a very 

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considerate, thoughtful host who
is paying attention to. 

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If the melody is so weird that 
you can't follow it, what can I 

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do to to make sure that you have
you, you know, that you can be 

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at home here, you know, and that
may take some process, but it 

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also I have to be deliberate 
about hosting it's. 

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Not just saying that now you all
I want. 

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I can't hear you all. 
You got to sing. 

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And so thinking about different 
traditions, I was thinking about

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sometimes you might have a 
Cantor who who's sings something

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or even in the African American 
church, how a lot of times songs

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have a sort of host. 
Yeah. 

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Who sings a line the next the 
line that you're about to sing. 

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Yeah. 
And he sings it. 

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Show you how. 
Kind of at the end of the last 

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line before the next line and he
says Amazing Grace, how sweet 

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the sun. 
And then you sing amazing. 

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And then so he he sets you up 
every time. 

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And that's an act of 
hospitality. 

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Yeah. 
Because he's saying we're about 

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to sing this. 
Let me sing it real quick and 

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now you can do it. 
Yeah. 

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And. 
Or in one of my favorite bands 

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and college, because I got into 
international student ministry 

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and there were a lot of folks 
from India where I was. 

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And we brought in this band 
called Aradhana, which is a word

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that just means worship in 
Hindi. 

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And a lot of those songs, they 
were coming from a totally 

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different tradition, totally 
different historical musical 

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background, but they were 
Christian. 

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And the way that those songs 
were structured was, was often 

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different. 
You'd, you, a lot of times you'd

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have a sort of Cantor sing a 
verse that you sort of listened 

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to and then there was a chorus 
that everybody would join in on.

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That was more, it was pretty 
simple and repetitive and, and 

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everybody kind of knew that that
worked that way. 

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You know I. 
I would love to see us do more 

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of that, more songs that that 
kind of split the difference 

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between congregational singing 
and like in a story or a ballad 

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song by a singer-songwriter. 
Where we did this a little bit 

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at our and Psalms Fall Feast 
this past weekend time of 

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recording the where you might 
have essentially A storyteller 

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that is singing the verses and 
then a refrain, then everybody 

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sings together. 
We don't do a ton of that. 

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Which is kind of a liturgical 
calling response. 

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Kind of. 
A thing. 

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Yeah. 
That's I I would love to see the

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Psalms sung that way, you know, 
with an, a refrain that people 

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could join in on. 
I think there's a lot of 

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possibilities there. 
But what I was thinking about 

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when you were talking about 
hospitality, Matthew, and about 

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welcoming people in and people 
that come from different 

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backgrounds is that if I'm 
hosting someone at my table, 

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I'm, I'm going to have a seat 
for everybody, you know? 

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And I want everybody to join in 
and be able to be part of the 

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feast. 
And it doesn't mean you can't do

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complex things. 
And it doesn't mean that I can 

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only invite people who already 
know how to do all this. 

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Yeah. 
It means that like you, I might 

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be asking you to enter into 
something that doesn't feel 

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super comfortable. 
But I want you to know or 

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familiar, but I want you to 
know, like, I'm going to take 

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good care of you. 
I'm going to help you find your 

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way through this thing. 
And. 

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That's. 
Really what you just said is so 

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important because because it's 
another area where the singing 

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topic mirrors spiritual 
disciplines topic. 

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There's there's, there's so much
about being Christian that 

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doesn't come naturally to us 
that we have to learn that is 

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hard. 
That is, that is unpleasant 

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00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,480
because it is hard initially. 
And there's so many, so many 

228
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,280
doctrines that we just shy away 
from because they make us 

229
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,480
uncomfortable. 
And then we choose churches that

230
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,960
reinforce what we already 
believe about those doctrines 

231
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,960
and, and we're. 
Missing so much. 

232
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,880
But but at this, but the premise
of our relationship with God is 

233
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,640
that he is calling us, meeting 
us where we are, but calling us 

234
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,240
out of who we are to who he is 
making us to be. 

235
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,240
We have to be willing to take 
those steps of courage. 

236
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,400
Likewise, if we take this 
approach to music where I'm just

237
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,240
going to go with what I already 
like, well, I'm going to choose 

238
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,320
a church whose music reminds me 
most of when I was young and 

239
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,840
singing enthusiastically, right?
Whether that's 90s Christian pop

240
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:12,520
or whether that's you too. 
If I choose a church, musically 

241
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,040
speaking, however, that is going
to take me further up and 

242
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,320
further in. 
I may have some things to learn 

243
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,400
along the way, and a good church
is going to equip me to learn 

244
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:21,600
those things along the way with 
their. 

245
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,880
Hospitality, yeah. 
And that might mean that you 

246
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,200
giving people permission to 
maybe say like, you can sit this

247
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,120
one out and just listen, let let
us sing this one over you. 

248
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,560
And as you get the hang of it, 
you know, you can do there are 

249
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,560
lots of ways to be considerate 
of people and and not make them 

250
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,240
feel like less than not make 
them feel stupid for not being 

251
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,480
able to participate because that
that doesn't help any to 

252
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,720
belittle people. 
But but to say it's OK, if 

253
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,640
there's a bit of a learning 
curve, it's probably, it may be 

254
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,560
worth it, you know? 
And encouraging people also to 

255
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,440
recognize that my favorite songs
are not the only songs we're 

256
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,240
going to sing, right? 
Right. 

257
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,680
There are other four other 
people, a song that I may not 

258
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,040
particularly like that really 
means a lot to that other 

259
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,480
person. 
So as an act of hospitality, I'm

260
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,360
willing to sing that for them. 
Well, it's like eating dinner 

261
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,480
with with people and like we're 
hopefully we can find something 

262
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,000
that everybody likes to eat. 
But if I'm in a family long 

263
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:28,080
term, you know, like I don't 
love fish that much, but you 

264
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,000
know, maybe Brian loves fish. 
And so like, I can eat fish 

265
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,840
today, like with Brian, because 
I want to eat dinner with Brian 

266
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,080
more than I want to eat the 
thing that I want to eat. 

267
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,080
Right there you go. 
That's. 

268
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:40,920
Great. 
Well said. 

269
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,720
Yeah. 
And so there, this is a tricky 

270
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,000
1. 
They're written for voice first,

271
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,600
just because I think one of the 
things we're hitting a lot along

272
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,200
the way here is just that a lot 
of grace is in order and a lot 

273
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,480
of hospitality is in order at 
every step in the process. 

274
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,320
Because there's almost no music 
today that is written for the 

275
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,440
human voice first. 
Almost none either, in the sense

276
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,960
that it was written for my 
favorite instrument to begin 

277
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,560
with. 
You know, there are there are 

278
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,240
tons of pop stars that came up 
with, you know, guitar first. 

279
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,280
There are others like Rachel 
Platten or Billy Joel that came 

280
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,280
up with piano 1st. 
And it affects how they sing and

281
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,200
it affects what types of 
melodies they write. 

282
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,680
And you can tell like you can 
like, I have a piano background.

283
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,600
I can nearly always tell, even 
if someone's playing guitar, 

284
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,240
that they were a pianist first. 
Yeah. 

285
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:33,280
But this this voice first thing,
even if they did read it mostly 

286
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,520
with from that perspective of 
how am I going to say it? 

287
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,560
That's not the same thing as 
reading it from the perspective 

288
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:43,480
of how is everyone going to sing
it And it and it can't depend on

289
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,200
this is a crucial thing. 
If you want people to be able to

290
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:52,000
sing to God without all the 
smoke and mirrors, without all 

291
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,680
the production value that you 
have in your sanctuary, you have

292
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,400
to be able to create music that 
does not require them. 

293
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,240
So I'll give you an example. 
I told Terry this one the other 

294
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,880
day, see if I can turn around 
without knocking everything 

295
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:11,839
over. 
But so we were we were all here 

296
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:13,880
the other day. 
And, and, and Terry, you and I 

297
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,880
were talking about this. 
And so this is by Keith and 

298
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,720
Kristen Getty, who write lots of
great we songs and who are 

299
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,119
central players in the revival 
of hymnity. 

300
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,720
And I'm very grateful for so 
much of what they've done. 

301
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,760
But they wrote a song called 
Christus Victor, which I love. 

302
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,800
I I really like this song. 
I want to just play through it 

303
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,720
real quick though. 
And I want to show you something

304
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,920
so it goes almost high king of 
the ages. 

305
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:47,400
Great. 
I am God of wonders. 

306
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,880
By the blood you have redeemed 
us. 

307
00:17:54,040 --> 00:18:02,360
Let us through. 
Mighty waters our strength, our 

308
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:10,280
song, our sure salvation power 
to the Lamb upon the throne 

309
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:14,760
with. 
Blasting. 

310
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,680
On the glory power from the 
battle you. 

311
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,640
Have won. 
It goes on from there. 

312
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,160
Very. 
Rousing chorus, very rousing, 

313
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:26,920
yes. 
And it does not work without a 

314
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,080
very loud piano, very loud 
electric guitar or a full band 

315
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,040
because you have that know where
it goes. 

316
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:40,080
Oh sure, salvation and then you 
need something to go bomb or it 

317
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:41,440
doesn't work. 
Yeah. 

318
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,920
So that is a great we song from 
all the perspectives of the 

319
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,840
first three things that we 
talked about connecting us to 

320
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,560
God, connecting us to the people
of God, chronologically 

321
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,160
connecting us to each other. 
It's great. 

322
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,840
It goes, it goes through the 
Trinity, it goes through past, 

323
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,440
present and future of the 
Christian story. 

324
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,480
It's great from that perspective
and it's a great melody. 

325
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,680
Yeah. 
However, it has this particular 

326
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,440
weakness on this particular 
point. 

327
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,760
You better have a good piano 
player that day. 

328
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,000
I can't have eight people in my 
living room. 

329
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:15,040
We just got this piano as a gift
from a generous friend a few 

330
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,040
weeks ago. 
We lived in this house for five 

331
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,360
years with no piano before that.
If I had eight people and let's 

332
00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,560
Sing, no one would have 
suggested that song because we 

333
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,240
don't have something to go bomb.
Right, right, right. 

334
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,440
Nobody gets lost at that moment.
Yep. 

335
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,280
So, you know, so in the in, in 
church history, the very first 

336
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,920
instruments were people singing 
just acapella. 

337
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,960
That was Christian worship for 
centuries, honestly. 

338
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:47,400
But you know what the best 
instrument is, the very best 

339
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:52,360
instrument to accompany human 
singing is an instrument that 

340
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,960
sounds a lot like voices 
already. 

341
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,360
And that's an organ. 
Yeah, if you've ever been in A 

342
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,440
room. 
Where, Matthew, you and you and 

343
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,480
I experienced this this summer 
when Amber played. 

344
00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:11,000
When you hear the room filled up
with the sound of an organ, it's

345
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:16,800
amazing because it fills the 
room without drowning you out. 

346
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,320
It's not about volume, it's 
about space filling the space 

347
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,520
with sound. 
And it gives you this feeling 

348
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,840
that I can just add my voice to 
this, you know, mighty sound. 

349
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,600
It's really a supportive kind of
instrument. 

350
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,440
And if you've never heard an 
organ like, like, we're not 

351
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,080
talking about like the circus 
organ that I've, I've been, 

352
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,880
I've, I've, I've, well, I've 
been, I've been in a couple 

353
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,320
churches where the organ, that's
what it sounded like they're. 

354
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:46,000
Yeah. 
And it was like, yeah, OK. 

355
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,240
You read somewhere the churches 
were supposed to have an organ. 

356
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,520
And this is what she bought and 
but no, the the the the huge, 

357
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,160
incredibly expensive pipe organ 
thing. 

358
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,280
So like probably everyone 
listening to this is seen Sound 

359
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,040
of Music. 
How do you solve a problem like 

360
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,600
Maria the wedding March. 
That's the kind of organ. 

361
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,560
We're talking about yes. 
OK, Yeah, Yeah. 

362
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,440
Well, guess what? 
I just saw in the news just 

363
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,840
yesterday that a an organ has 
been unearthed from the 11th 

364
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,400
century. 
People think it's the oldest 

365
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:25,920
Christian organ in existence. 
It was used in an Abbey in 

366
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,400
Jerusalem. 
It made with. 

367
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,480
It was made with bronze pipes, 
all different sizes. 

368
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,240
Some of them were named what 
notes they were playing. 

369
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,200
And when The Crusaders were 
worried about the the Muslim 

370
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,160
armies invading Jerusalem, they 
took that organ, they carried it

371
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,720
to Bethlehem and they buried it 
so that it could be preserved. 

372
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,520
And it's just been discovered. 
They've re put it back together 

373
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,240
and it's beautiful sound. 
Beautiful sound these bronze 

374
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,200
pipes make. 
Yeah, that's. 

375
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,560
That's an amazing. 
Story. 

376
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,520
An ancient instrument. 
So this the, the second-half of 

377
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,560
of this, if it's, if it's 
written for, for, for voice 

378
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,320
first in the sense that it's 
designed to equip you to sing 

379
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:22,680
well, the second point for this 
conversation and the 5th total 

380
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,920
point in our we songs 
conversation is a Foster's 

381
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,560
confidence. 
That's the best way that I can 

382
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,880
think of to summarize something 
that's a little more complex, 

383
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,640
which is that it's, it's 
reasonably intuitive to learn 

384
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,440
and remember. 
And typically, melodically 

385
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,360
speaking, once you've heard the 
first verse, you've heard the 

386
00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,600
whole song so that you can focus
on the words and singing 

387
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,440
confidently and loudly. 
So I'll give you some of this 

388
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,600
might sound obvious, but, and I 
want to throw a bone to 

389
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,400
something that you at least 
alluded to earlier that we 

390
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,120
didn't touch on in too much 
detail, which is simply that 

391
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,880
sometimes we do have to learn 
things. 

392
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,160
And, and, and, and you have to 
recognize, hey, there are songs 

393
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,400
in our there are songs in some 
of these hymnals where you're 

394
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,120
like, that's unsingable. 
Well, it, it might feel 

395
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,360
unsingable to us. 
It may not have felt, it might 

396
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:13,840
have, but it might not have felt
unsingable to someone in these 

397
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,040
1600s when it was written where 
the all the live entertainment 

398
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,960
was singing to each other. 
Yeah, right. 

399
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,560
Like if you sing a lot, you will
eventually branch out into 

400
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,040
singing in parts and you will 
eventually set branch out into 

401
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,560
singing rounds. 
You will start doing more with 

402
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,840
your voice as you get more 
comfortable with your voice in a

403
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,760
communal setting. 
So just having said that, 

404
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,400
keeping in mind that something 
that will foster confidence for 

405
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,400
a typical 21st century American 
evangelical churchgoer today 

406
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,240
might be different than 
fostering confidence for another

407
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,840
person somewhere else in the 
world right now or the American 

408
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,080
evangelical 50 years ago and so 
on. 

409
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,480
So but then I'll give you an 
example of what I'm of the 

410
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:54,920
opposite of what I'm talking 
about. 

411
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,640
All pop songs and almost all 
songs sung in corporate worship 

412
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,760
in American churches that 
descend from sort of the pop 

413
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:10,640
pedigree are what I will I will 
pejoratively call them karaoke 

414
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,120
songs. 
OK, so, so for so and they, and 

415
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:20,360
and so they go like this. 
Verse one, chorus one, musical 

416
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:24,320
interlude, verse 2, chorus 2 
with some of the words different

417
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:29,800
from chorus one, maybe verse 3, 
chorus 3, longer musical 

418
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,640
interlude, guitar solo, bridge. 
Completely new tune that came 

419
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,640
out of nowhere and has nothing 
to do with anything that's 

420
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,360
that's preceded as far as me, 
the casual listener knows. 

421
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:51,160
Key change, chorus 5, chorus 6, 
chorus 1 again, I'm confused 

422
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,480
now, right? 
That's like 9 different times 

423
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,120
that you ambushed the singers, 
right? 

424
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,560
All of that is a totally legit 
pop song. 

425
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,320
All of that is a totally legit 
folk song. 

426
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,120
All of that is a totally legit 
any kind of song. 

427
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,840
You're trying to build a musical
narrative, you're trying to tell

428
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,520
a story. 
You're like, that's completely. 

429
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,920
Interesting. 
But if I have to remember and 

430
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,080
geez, some of my favorite, even 
some of my favorite hymns do 

431
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,680
this. 
Oh, that's right. 

432
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,040
This is the this is the time 
around on the chorus where we 

433
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,440
change that one word to that 
other thing instead. 

434
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,280
So what what that dynamic does 
in a worship song for everything

435
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,120
other than the like 3 or 4 
concrete like favorites for your

436
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,160
congregation? 
Is it? 

437
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,560
It tells everyone in the room be
quiet because you might 

438
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,680
embarrass yourself. 
I'm singing loudly and strongly 

439
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,480
verse one, chorus 1 and I start 
loudly into verse 2. 

440
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,640
Except I forgot there was a 
musical interlude. 

441
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,760
There. 
And I was the only one who did 

442
00:25:53,760 --> 00:26:00,640
it right, so I didn't get that 
from anywhere. 

443
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,800
I just started noticing it over 
time. 

444
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,840
Like, I'm looking around, the 
confident singers that know all 

445
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,320
the songs, They're fine. 
The 2/3 of the congregation, 

446
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,720
that's not those people. 
They look hesitant. 

447
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,400
They look tentative. 
They're scared of what's going 

448
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,360
to happen next. 
By contrast, we had staff and 

449
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:24,680
board dinner right here a few 
days ago, and we all decided 

450
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,240
that before we ate, as part of 
our prayer, we would sing holy, 

451
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,480
holy, holy. 
Now, did we all know all the 

452
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:31,920
words? 
No, right. 

453
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,720
Like what we got to the we got 
to, you know, verse 3 and some 

454
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,880
people started going, is that 
verse 3 or verse four? 

455
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,160
OK, fair enough. 
But once we sang that first tune

456
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:43,680
but first verse, we all knew it,
right? 

457
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,520
There wasn't a doubt. 
There was no we didn't have to 

458
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,680
wonder, is the pianist going to 
do something funky before verse 

459
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,760
2? 
We didn't have to worry about is

460
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,080
the is the tune different? 
Did the words change? 

461
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,960
I know musically speaking, I 
know the whole song after I've 

462
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,000
heard the verse, the first 
verse, and now I can just lose 

463
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,000
myself in what I am actually. 
Singing right, Right. 

464
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,320
Yeah, it's interesting. 
I wonder if if there might be a 

465
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,280
little push back to say, like, 
part of the difficulty of that 

466
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,840
is that we live in a time now 
where the ability to write and 

467
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,160
record and distribute and and 
hear and find out about songs 

468
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,640
that are coming from right, all 
over the place just makes it 

469
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:33,240
more difficult for any given 
song to become very, very 

470
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,520
familiar. 
Yeah. 

471
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,640
You know, so we, we have new 
songs coming at us all the time.

472
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,240
Yeah. 
And so, you know, because I 

473
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,800
remember again, when I was 
leading worship, there would be,

474
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,440
you know, about every week 
somebody would say, oh, can we 

475
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,880
sing this song? 
And I'd be like I've never. 

476
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,800
Heard on the radio I've. 
Never heard of that song. 

477
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,480
OK, I got to go learn it and now
it's a brand new song. 

478
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,080
And so I think I think probably 
the further back in time you go,

479
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:02,120
you would have communities that 
would know a sort of set of 

480
00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:05,640
songs or a little. 
And of course that's why we have

481
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,280
a hymnals. 
But that's got to be one of the 

482
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,960
things that contributes to that.
And not just because actually I 

483
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,640
think that the sort of verse, 
chorus, verse, chorus, bridge 

484
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,640
verse, chorus is actually a very
natural form that I think 

485
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,400
because you see it so occurring 
so frequently, I think it's 

486
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,120
actually a form that we 
gravitate towards. 

487
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,760
One of the things I struggle 
with is a lot of times melodies 

488
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,800
and I think there is a such 
thing as just a good melody and 

489
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,920
a bad melody. 
And like so you get a lot of 

490
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,840
times melodies that are not 
intuitive or they're not, 

491
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,360
they're very unnatural. 
They're just not good melodies. 

492
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,160
And so they might be very weird 
or, and you really got to like 

493
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:54,800
contort yourself to you get to 
that melody or rhythms or, you 

494
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,640
know, they're just ways that if 
you're not looking at it and you

495
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,320
don't like me, I don't read 
music. 

496
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,200
So if you've got a strange 
rhythmic thing, like we were 

497
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,760
dealing with some of that in the
pub songs the other night and 

498
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,680
what we were doing was written 
on the paper felt really 

499
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,840
unnatural to me. 
And so you have to learn those 

500
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,040
things and it could be really 
difficult, but there are ways as

501
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,960
a songwriter that you can, well,
you can create situations for 

502
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680
yourself where in the 
songwriting process you're 

503
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,880
actually submitting those songs 
to people and saying, OK, what 

504
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:34,880
trips you up? 
Like, right, but you want to 

505
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,000
know the stuff that doesn't 
work. 

506
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,080
And if people are like this part
where it goes up here, like, I 

507
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,520
can't do that. 
And he's like, OK, well, I need 

508
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,720
to rework the melody there or I 
couldn't follow this rhythmic 

509
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,720
thing or I got really confused, 
or this lyric doesn't even make 

510
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:50,920
sense. 
I don't know what you're talking

511
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,960
about, You know? 
So you'd really need 

512
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,360
accountability. 
Whereas if you're just writing 

513
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,480
and you know, 
individualistically or a pop 

514
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,640
song, like you're going to get 
feedback from your producer and 

515
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,120
your the people you're working 
with, but but to a different 

516
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,800
end. 
Whereas in this context, how can

517
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,320
we be most considerate so that 
people, and you're talking about

518
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,480
confidence as well think, I 
think unfortunately, we, we live

519
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:23,640
in a, a culture that the church 
is one of the only places where 

520
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,000
we still do this kind of thing. 
And it's like this bastion of 

521
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,160
corporate singing, unless you 
love this particular band and 

522
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,000
you go to that concert. 
But that's not what we're doing 

523
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,800
in corporate singing. 
And so I think in general, 

524
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,240
people aren't confident about 
singing with people, not because

525
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,640
sometimes maybe it doesn't have 
anything to do with the music, 

526
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,120
but it's part of kind of where 
we are culturally. 

527
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,160
That's unfortunate, but we do 
want to make a place where they 

528
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:57,840
can congregate and find out that
they can do it and discover 

529
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,720
like, oh, this is something 
people do. 

530
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,840
Yes, actually you were made for 
this. 

531
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,120
So I just heard two things that 
I want your opinion on as a 

532
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,400
music director. 
One is the notion of a body of 

533
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,560
songs that everybody knows, 
right? 

534
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,800
And the other is the notion of 
of a type of singing that people

535
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,280
have been equipped to do. 
Because one of the things that 

536
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,440
I've noticed on that second 
point is, yeah, the church is 

537
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,160
pretty much the only place where
we get together and sing 

538
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,760
anymore. 
But in the church, the vast 

539
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,400
majority of the time, we just 
sort of launch into it as though

540
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,280
that's normal for everyone. 
And it's not right where you 

541
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,000
almost it it, it's almost like 
when you join, when you become a

542
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,600
Christian, we should give you 
singing lessons. 

543
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,120
Like, hey, we're going to do 
this thing that's weird. 

544
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:39,480
You've never done this anywhere 
else. 

545
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,800
Could we let let's explain to 
you how this works? 

546
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,200
What if a small group was just 
about that? 

547
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,440
Yeah. 
So they so those are two things,

548
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,000
A whole bunch of songs that 
everybody knows. 

549
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,440
Not really a thing. 
A whole bunch of type of singing

550
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,360
everybody knows how to do. 
Also not really a thing. 

551
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,840
What's how do you think about 
those things as a music 

552
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,280
director? 
Oh man, well, one thing that I 

553
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:06,680
love to do is you're right. 
We're, we're as a church, we're 

554
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:13,160
trying to find the songs that 
are our songs, like our body of 

555
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,160
songs that describe who we are 
at this time and place. 

556
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,960
And so that means I'm going to 
limit myself. 

557
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,840
We're going to be limiting. 
We're not going to sing every 

558
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,680
song there is out there. 
And we're not going to be trying

559
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,440
to be, you know, keep up with 
the whatever the newest thing is

560
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,920
by bringing that into the 
church. 

561
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,360
I guess I would say probably 90%
when I'm choosing songs for a 

562
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,520
service. 90% is songs we already
know. 

563
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,240
Maybe one song. 
You can build those in Gret, you

564
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,040
know. 
One song is new and I'll try to 

565
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,880
put it in a place where the 
congregation doesn't feel like 

566
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,280
they have to sing necessarily, 
like during communion where 

567
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,040
they're walking up front anyway 
and they can listen to it and 

568
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,400
kind of get accustomed to it 
then. 

569
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,760
Then maybe the next time I'll 
bring it and I'll put it in a 

570
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,440
different spot in the service. 
She just made a sneaky argument 

571
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,080
for communion every week. 
Oh yeah. 

572
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,800
Oh, yeah. 
I also love it when I feel like 

573
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:20,520
the congregation does know this 
song to save a verse where we 

574
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,960
deliberately drop all the 
instruments out and let them 

575
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,000
hear themselves singing. 
I really think that's important 

576
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,120
because people can they 
discover, Oh my gosh, this 

577
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,480
sounds great. 
I sound good. 

578
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,040
You know, which is really sorry,
I don't mean to interrupt. 

579
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,040
That's really interesting 
because another thing I've, 

580
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,080
I've, I've seen church bands do 
sometimes is if they feel like 

581
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,000
this is like the, this is like 
this, the, the quiet verse 

582
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,120
before we go crazy on the last 
key change or something, they'll

583
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,480
have some of the instruments 
drop out or everybody will sing 

584
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,320
or we'll start playing quieter 
and the lead vocalist will start

585
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,160
singing quieter. 
And in, in my opinion, that 

586
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,080
doesn't work very well in a 
congregational singing because 

587
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,200
now everyone panics. 
It's another ambush. 

588
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,639
Everybody's like, I got to think
quieter or someone might hear 

589
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:09,560
me. 
And now it sounds like 

590
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,920
everything's whispering, which. 
But. 

591
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,360
But a very different thing 
happens when you just cut the 

592
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,960
instruments entirely. 
There's that little moment of 

593
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,480
panic, but then the confident 
singers launch into it. 

594
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,400
And then everybody goes, OK, I 
can hide in that mix. 

595
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,400
It's all right. 
And, and then. 

596
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,679
Yeah, you so often, not always, 
but more often than not, you 

597
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:32,880
hear that this really powerful 
and empowering thing. 

598
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:36,199
Oh, we can sing. 
Yeah, yeah. 

599
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,239
And so, you know, it's, it's 
developing a culture that's kind

600
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,960
of what you're talking about, 
developing a culture where 

601
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,280
people, you're continually 
reminding yourselves and each 

602
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,239
other that this is for everyone.
This is not just for the the, 

603
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,320
you know, the few. 
I, I think you refer to this a 

604
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,600
little bit ago, Matthew, that we
live in a culture where we don't

605
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,640
have singing together very much 
except when we come to church. 

606
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,400
We also have a culture where 
people are listening to perfect 

607
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,240
recordings of someone who's done
20 takes of something, you know,

608
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:17,400
to get it just exactly right. 
And then they have this feeling 

609
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,200
that will, unless I can do that,
I Can't Sing. 

610
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,080
You know, I'm not born with 
that. 

611
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,600
Well, the reality is no one is 
born with that. 

612
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,200
I saw a great, great video of Ed
Sheeran a few days ago with 

613
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,880
where he just played it on his 
phone on a talk show, a 

614
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,480
recording of himself singing a 
certain a certain number of 

615
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:38,840
years before. 
And. 

616
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,120
And then he's how people always 
tell me you're so talented and 

617
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,560
isn't this is what I sounded 
like before I worked my butt off

618
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,040
and studied a craft for 10 
years. 

619
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,160
Yeah. 
Yeah, so, so, OK, so we've 

620
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,640
talked about singing being a 
spiritual discipline. 

621
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,880
I'm, I really want to explore 
that thought a little bit in my 

622
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,920
own mind. 
I mean, not maybe not all right 

623
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,280
now, but OK. 
Well, so we learned to pray 

624
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,440
together, right? 
As a congregation. 

625
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,560
Lord, teach us to pray. 
The Lord's Prayer, he gave us 

626
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,640
that as a prayer to teach us how
to pray. 

627
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,840
We do it together. 
We say it corporately. 

628
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:17,440
So in the same way, we need 
songs that we are, our songs 

629
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,360
that we sing together, you know?
On that note, a couple of 

630
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,240
thoughts that to just sort of 
tack on to things both of you 

631
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:30,400
have said in the last few 
minutes. 1 is I hear you on the 

632
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,640
form thing, like first chorus, 
first chorus bridge. 

633
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,720
Like that's a familiar form. 
And, and I'm not discounting 

634
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:40,480
that I would distinguish that 
sum from like verse one chorus 

635
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,720
one verse 2 chorus. 
Two, you talked about the chorus

636
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:45,520
having different. 
Everything, everything's 

637
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,440
changing all the time. 
Yeah. 

638
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,320
Yeah. 
Whereas yeah like a lot of the 

639
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,520
old hymns don't have choruses at
at all and they get sometimes 

640
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,280
can feel a little bit unnatural,
which is why usually very bad 

641
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,760
songwriters feel compulsive 
needs to write choruses for them

642
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,520
that are not nearly as good as 
the original melodies. 

643
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,320
But and frequently we when we 
have songs that are kind of a 

644
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,840
little bit like that, we often 
will get to the place where 

645
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,640
there's the instrumental, you 
know, interlude and we'll just 

646
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,520
go, we're just going to cross 
that out right there and move 

647
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,520
right to the next verse, you 
know, because it works better 

648
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,320
for the congregation. 
So. 

649
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,480
So there's that form thing, but 
then but also the the, the weird

650
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,400
assumption of the dynamic that 
that you guys have described 

651
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,320
where where we're constantly 
trying to keep up with basically

652
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,640
kept up, keep up with the radio.
The expectations, that's. 

653
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,680
An interesting thing to try to 
keep up with. 

654
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,400
Right. 
Like, oh, the the the radio 

655
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,880
stations, many of which are not 
even Christian owned anymore, 

656
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,720
are going to drive our 
congregational singing, 

657
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:51,360
including the substance of it. 
I think there's a, there's a 

658
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,280
great argument to be made for 
approaching the songs that your 

659
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,960
congregation wants to be our 
songs from a posture of, well, 

660
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,960
this, this isn't, we shouldn't 
have theologians and pastors 

661
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,920
over here and worship leaders. 
Who's the random guy who plays a

662
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,400
guitar over here? 
This person needs to be a 

663
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,120
theologian too. 
And he needs to be in dialogue 

664
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,880
with the the pastor so that 
you're thinking about what are 

665
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,040
the songs that represent who we 
are, that represent what we 

666
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,160
believe. 
And if there's a shortage of a 

667
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,720
particular kind of one, maybe we
need to write them. 

668
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,560
And that song might never make 
it big on the radio, and it 

669
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,080
might never be sung by anyone 
else outside our congregation, 

670
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,360
but it's ours. 
Yeah, I love that. 

671
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,520
That and then as a sort of 
counterpoint to that, a cheater 

672
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,280
way to go into sort of split. 
The difference is what you said 

673
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,840
about prayers. 
There are so many famous prayers

674
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,040
that have been said and sung by 
Christians over the centuries, 

675
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,040
the doxology being a really 
obvious 1. 

676
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,880
So you can grab on to some of 
those that are pretty universal 

677
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,960
and then you can go anywhere in 
the world and find that, oh, 

678
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,040
they're singing that too. 
Or there's an old prayer and you

679
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,840
feel like there isn't a good 
melody for it in a contemporary 

680
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,560
context. 
So we're going to be the church 

681
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,760
that writes that melody so we 
can sing it. 

682
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,280
And then we find ourselves in 
this church from another 

683
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,920
denomination in another part of 
the country or another part of 

684
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,120
the world, and they're singing a
different tune. 

685
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,840
But we know those words. 
So I so we don't feel othered 

686
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,160
even though we don't know the 
tune. 

687
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,000
Yeah, we're not trying to be 
somebody else. 

688
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,040
We're trying to express who we 
are in the story. 

689
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,280
And you kind of get the 
universality of the church and 

690
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,440
the particularity of our church 
in literally the same breath. 

691
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,360
That's fun, yes. 
Yeah. 

692
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,200
So go ahead. 
Well, there's something else 

693
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,720
that occurs to me. 
I was thinking we just had our 

694
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,040
long expected feast, our Tolkien
themed, you know, Anselm 

695
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,880
conference. 
And one of the things I was 

696
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,000
looking at in the talk that I 
did were songs and music 

697
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:04,200
throughout Lord of the Rings. 
In a section of the talk, I was 

698
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,560
like, let's just look at some 
different kinds of songs in this

699
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,360
story. 
There are so many different 

700
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,000
things that are addressed. 
There's like a song about hot 

701
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,960
bath, like enjoying a hot bath, 
which, you know, like is a human

702
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,440
experience, right? 
But it's also this great gift 

703
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:21,440
from God. 
Oh, water. 

704
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,120
Hot is a noble thing. 
And, but, and there are songs 

705
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,920
that are laments, there are 
songs that are kind of 

706
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,720
prophetic. 
There are songs that are funeral

707
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:33,360
songs. 
There are songs that help you 

708
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,680
remember your history as a 
people and preserve the lore and

709
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,240
the wisdom of the ages so that 
you can, you can carry on on the

710
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:44,160
shoulders of giants. 
You know, there's so many like 

711
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,200
songs can do so many different 
things. 

712
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,680
And so like, one of the things 
that's exciting to be about to 

713
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,000
me about music is that you can 
have so many different kinds of 

714
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,280
songs. 
And I was thinking of settings 

715
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,240
for maybe like Jack Redford, 
who's going to set something 

716
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,640
that is going to really be sung 
like an art song. 

717
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,880
It's going to be sung on my 
behalf. 

718
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,640
I'm really not expected to sing 
along, but that's still a my. 

719
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,000
Heart can sing. 
My heart can sing and it can be 

720
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,280
kind of an intercession. 
It can do a lot of things. 

721
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,160
And the the purpose of that 
particular kind of song may not 

722
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,480
be congregational participation,
but it's still a component of 

723
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,480
the church's life, just like the
Hot Water song is, you know? 

724
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,240
But yeah, if we're talking about
building confidence or if we're 

725
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:39,040
talking about writing songs 
specifically for people to enter

726
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,360
into, I think it's just helpful 
to to really be specific about 

727
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,720
that context and say, right, 
we're talking about these kinds 

728
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:50,400
of songs and how can we, how can
we do that really well so that 

729
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,920
the body is built up. 
Yeah, yeah, well said. 

730
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,680
And then you mentioned way 
earlier in the conversation the 

731
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,560
the value of knowing the lore, 
so to speak, being being 

732
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,600
conversant in scriptural 
imagery. 

733
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,320
You know what metaphors. 
Does does. 

734
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,920
That the scriptures use when 
they talk about God or the 

735
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,960
people of God or the the symbols
or touch points in creation or 

736
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,400
touch points in the stories of 
the church. 

737
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,480
It it lowers the volume a lot, 
lowers the pressure a lot on you

738
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,000
to come up with completely new 
and different and brilliant 

739
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,200
things all the time because you 
can write a song that. 

740
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,720
That. 
Fundamentally does one thing, 

741
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:37,320
one goal that you're setting out
to accomplish, but employs so 

742
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,200
many familiar little references 
along the way. 

743
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,760
Kind of like you mentioned 
earlier with Blues rock and, and

744
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,440
and and then some of the musical
devices right to to someone who 

745
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,760
has been, who is being shaped by
the songs and the stories of 

746
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:56,120
God's people, that song is just 
exploding with meaning for them.

747
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:01,040
From Oh my gosh, yes, the the 
Blues in the gospel culture of 

748
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,160
music is that's a unique thing 
for our American, you know, time

749
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,280
yeah, expresses who a lot of who
we are. 

750
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,920
Well, I'll, well, I'll toss in 
our last one because it's the 

751
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,960
least complicated and maybe it 
jogs something, the last point. 

752
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:24,480
So it's written for voice first.
It fosters confidence and it is 

753
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,280
despite this accessibility it 
offers depth. 

754
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:29,400
Oh, yeah. 
Thank you. 

755
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,560
Yeah. 
So you don't need the PhD in 

756
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,800
theology or history to 
understand it, but you can hear 

757
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,040
it for the millionth time and 
get and still get something 

758
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:39,240
fresh out of it. 
Yeah. 

759
00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:42,720
Oh, well, you know, that's ain't
that's, that's been going on 

760
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,080
since the beginning of the 
church right there. 

761
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,240
There was a, I'm not going to be
able to tell you his name, but 

762
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:54,080
there was a famous, very famous 
preacher who was known for his 

763
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,000
wordsmithing, you know, his 
ability to very communicate very

764
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,800
well theology. 
And what he decided was that the

765
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,280
most effective way to 
communicate that theology that 

766
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,280
he wanted his congregation to 
know was to write hymns. 

767
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,040
So that's what he's really known
for today is the 1000 of, you 

768
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,120
know, hymns that he wrote 
because music has the ability 

769
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,720
to, like, lodge in our mind, in 
our heart. 

770
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,680
So if you want words to be stuck
there, just sing them. 

771
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,200
Yeah. 
Well, and singing works things 

772
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,760
into us and it inculcates things
like in a particular way. 

773
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,880
Yeah. 
Now a lot of people think that 

774
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:42,240
if we, you know, our belief, 
our, our faith, our, you know, 

775
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:49,280
our, Yeah, what we believe will 
come out in what we sing, which 

776
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,000
I think is true. 
But I really think it's more 

777
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,120
important to view it the other 
way around. 

778
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:00,920
How we sing, what we sing, is 
actually part of what forms us 

779
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,600
and shapes us as people. 
So we really want to have songs 

780
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:09,080
that have depth, that are true, 
that where we're repeating to 

781
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,640
ourselves the truths that we 
really want to be formed by. 

782
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,360
Yeah, and I think part of the 
hospitality, part of the skill 

783
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,520
of wherever, whoever's making 
the songs, wherever they're 

784
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:27,120
coming from, is I got for me. 
I came up with a gettable 

785
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:33,000
digable and gettable diggable is
like kind of a, it's kind of 

786
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,960
like a way of judging a song as 
I'm writing it. 

787
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,920
Yeah. 
I'm saying, OK, is this gettable

788
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,280
or do you have to, like, have 
read these five books? 

789
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,640
Yeah. 
In the end, what the heck I'm 

790
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,640
saying, Yeah. 
Is it gettable? 

791
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,560
4 quartets would not pass muster
on this one, right? 

792
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,040
Yeah, and that stuff ought to be
made too. 

793
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,680
But in this context, is it 
gettable? 

794
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,400
Can people enter into it and it 
but is it also diggable? 

795
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,440
Is it so superficial or so 
abstract or so uninteresting 

796
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:08,000
that you can't, you know, And 
some of my favorite songwriters 

797
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,400
can pull that off really well, 
where you can listen to the song

798
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,800
the first time and you can get 
it and you can enter into it, 

799
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,520
and then you can notice 
something on the 10th time that 

800
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:19,840
you. 
Didn't notice the first time. 

801
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:21,800
Or you could go look into 
something. 

802
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:24,920
I like that kind of thing. 
I like shooting for that, 

803
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,520
trying, trying to get get to 
that. 

804
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:29,400
And you and you tend to hit that
in your songs. 

805
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:34,960
And, and, and Andrew Peterson, 
nearly all, I would say nearly 

806
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,920
all of Andrew Peterson's songs 
are, are we songs. 

807
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,720
So they're not mostly not 
written for congregational 

808
00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:40,840
singing, but they're all we 
songs. 

809
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,560
They connect you to God. 
They connect you to each other 

810
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,360
and the universality of human 
experience. 

811
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,200
They, they connect you to a 
sense of memory. 

812
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,920
And there's, there's going to be
references and, and they're all 

813
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,040
within an octave and they're all
really musically intuitive and 

814
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,600
they make sense. 
And, and and there's just so 

815
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,760
much depth. 
If you, if you don't know the 

816
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,000
references that he's making, 
they're good enough on their own

817
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,880
that you go, oh, that's 
beautiful. 

818
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,040
It's going to stick with me 
forever. 

819
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,320
And if you do know the 
references, you just go, oh, 

820
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,800
chef's kiss, right. 
Yeah, yeah. 

821
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,840
That's good songwriting. 
I think another element of good 

822
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,680
songwriting is does the melody 
fit the words? 

823
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:24,440
Like, is it a melody that that 
makes the words come alive? 

824
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,400
You know, it's not like you're 
not gonna sing really happy 

825
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,120
words with a really dirty kind 
of melody. 

826
00:47:31,240 --> 00:47:34,040
Right, so joyful, joyful is a 
great melody for those words, 

827
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,880
right, because it's there's this
perfect. 

828
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,840
Melting. 
Yes, and this is where the we, 

829
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,000
we, we harp on this with our 
arts Guild so much. 

830
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,200
But you want the, your craft to 
elevate over time and your 

831
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:52,280
theology and your depths and 
richness and maturity of your 

832
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:57,920
spiritual life to mature to, to 
grow over time with it so they 

833
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,640
can kind of keep pace with each 
other. 

834
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,240
Because then you know, oh, I'm 
writing. 

835
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:06,240
They asked me to write a, a song
for the Gloria or for whatever. 

836
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,960
I know what this is for. 
I I understand what's going on 

837
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,520
here. 
I think sometimes we it takes a 

838
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,880
lot of attentiveness to a song 
to. 

839
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,760
I think a lot of times songs get
included in services that aren't

840
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,040
congregational songs because 
because somebody just hasn't 

841
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,840
noticed the difference, that 
somebody hasn't said, oh, this 

842
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,040
is a cool song. 
I like the way this song makes 

843
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,480
me feel. 
Wouldn't it be cool if we sang 

844
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,160
this together, but then noticing
like, yeah, but actually, if you

845
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,840
have, if songs can do a whole 
range of things so you can 

846
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,440
validly have many different 
kinds of songs for different 

847
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,320
occasions, you've got to pay 
attention and say like, is that 

848
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,280
what this song is? 
Does it? 

849
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,240
Is it doing that? 
Serving this. 

850
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,320
And so I really, I can't just 
put any song in there. 

851
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,840
I need to put the song, the 
kinds of songs that fit this 

852
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,040
occasion. 
And that was kind of like Grace,

853
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,400
Haman said. 
She mentioned Temperance and 

854
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,520
this was a cool point from her 
talk that stuck with me because 

855
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,800
she said, you know something 
like abstinence or feasting. 

856
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:17,280
It's not one or the other, it 
depends on the context. 

857
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,960
And the time. 
And the time, what does this 

858
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,280
particular time call for? 
What is most fitting and 

859
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,960
appropriate in this context, in 
this time? 

860
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,640
And it doesn't mean that's not a
good song or there's something 

861
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,280
wrong with it, but it means what
we're doing right now at this 

862
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,360
time isn't that. 
Yeah. 

863
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,960
Well, and now at that point 
you're back to the very 

864
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:38,920
beginning of our conversation 
and the point you made about 

865
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,080
sacred and profane art or the 
the very first talk that I ever 

866
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,600
gave for as leader of the Ansem 
Society at an Ansem event was at

867
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,400
one of our conferences. 
And it was just, I think it was 

868
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,560
maybe 10 minutes. 
It was a little break out and 

869
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,560
just and and it was that was one
of the points that I made that 

870
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,320
like you got to understand, I 
use this term sacred and common 

871
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,640
art, right, right. 
So that people didn't get hung 

872
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,480
up on profane, but but in both 
in in both cases that, hey, it's

873
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:10,280
this song over here is to 
facilitate corporate worship, 

874
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,440
which means this, this and this 
and requires this, this and this

875
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,480
and necessitates forms that look
like this, this and this. 

876
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,200
And then over here you have 
common art, which is everything 

877
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:24,320
else. 
And this is really good for 

878
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,880
approaching the throne room of 
God. 

879
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,000
And this is really good with 
discipleship and struggle and, 

880
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,680
and reconciling myself to the 
fact that I don't feel worthy to

881
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,680
approach the throne room of God 
right now. 

882
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,320
And we need them both, but we 
have to be able to pay attention

883
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,520
to what we're trying to. 
Yeah, do. 

884
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,040
And as soon as you get rid of 
the categories, as soon as you 

885
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,320
get rid of the categories, 
that's where you start to get 

886
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:50,880
messed up. 
Because now you're creating 

887
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,880
common art, like a story, and 
you feel like you have to 

888
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,040
shoehorn Jesus into it at every 
time. 

889
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,640
And you have music over here 
that's being sung in a church 

890
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,880
that doesn't belong in a church 
wasn't written for one. 

891
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:05,760
And you're, you're hurting both.
But it's only because you're, 

892
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,240
you're not paying attention to 
where they belong, right? 

893
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,120
You're putting pressure on 
yourself for the piece of art to

894
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,720
do something it wasn't designed 
to do. 

895
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,320
Right. 
Pay attention to where you are, 

896
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,960
what the time calls for. 
I went to the restroom a minute 

897
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,560
ago and you have a little sign 
in your bathroom. 

898
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,760
This is the bathroom. 
What does it say the bathroom? 

899
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,160
This bathroom is for singing 
this. 

900
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,360
Bathroom is for singing, you 
know so. 

901
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,160
Acoustics in there, right? 
So, you know, that's what's the 

902
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,240
right thing for this place. 
This time. 

903
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:32,720
It's like, well, you should 
probably sing the, the the water

904
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:35,080
hot song, you know, the bathe 
bath song from Tolkien. 

905
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,680
But and I also thought of mourn 
with those who mourn, rejoice 

906
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:42,680
with those who rejoice. 
It's like, hey, maybe don't sing

907
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,200
the most cheerful, happy song, 
you know, if if the context and 

908
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,000
the time calls for grieving with
that person. 

909
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:51,920
Yeah. 
And we've got songs for that. 

910
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:53,840
Right. 
Yeah, whatever. 

911
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,880
One Sunday, after one of our 
members of our congregation had 

912
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,480
died, we switched and decided to
sing Be Still My Soul. 

913
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,920
Aw. 
Man, you know, the next week I 

914
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,240
was was good. 
Yeah, yeah. 

915
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,160
And, and I think it was 
Athanasius who wrote extensively

916
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,560
about the Psalm, the value of 
the Psalms for for this, it's 

917
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,200
like the Psalms between the lot 
of them that every single Psalm 

918
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:18,960
doesn't try to do every single 
thing right. 

919
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,840
But across the corpus of the 
Psalms, it covers every bit of 

920
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:25,920
the range of the human psyche. 
Yes. 

921
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,880
And we, yeah, we need our our 
corporate song, our other 

922
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,760
corporate songs to have more of 
a range too. 

923
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,440
Yeah. 
Any last thoughts from And you, 

924
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,280
Terry? 
I feel like we've couldn't like 

925
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:39,680
jump in on each other the last 
couple. 

926
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:40,040
Of years. 
Yeah. 

927
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,320
No, I think this has been an 
awesome conversation. 

928
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,400
I've actually learned a lot that
I'm going to take away and do 

929
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:51,520
some ruminating over to help me 
in, you know, with what I'm what

930
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:55,200
I'm my task is. 
But I, I would really, I would 

931
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,840
really love to hear Matthew sing
his song that he wrote about 

932
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,720
the, the what we're all going to
do someday together. 

933
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,480
I would too. 
Yeah, so this is the last song 

934
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,000
in from a trilogy of albums and 
the well trilogy. 

935
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,600
And the the whole idea is that 
what is God? 

936
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,760
What has God's ultimate desire 
for the world been and for us? 

937
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:28,400
And what is this sort of tell us
or the, the destiny of humanity 

938
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:32,560
that God dreamt of before he 
made us in my understanding of 

939
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:37,120
that is that it is to be with 
and to be like Jesus, like we 

940
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:42,040
are headed toward the one who he
is the first born from among the

941
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,560
dead. 
And he's the he's the paradigm, 

942
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:49,360
you know, he's the one that, and
and that includes the unveiling 

943
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,760
of the face. 
That means we're going to see 

944
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,440
God face to face, but it's going
to be kind of a mutual unveiling

945
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,440
because the bride will also be 
unveiled. 

946
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:01,400
And when we see him seeing us, 
we will finally become all that 

947
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,040
God dreamt of us and desired for
us to be. 

948
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,000
And kind of defining the idea of
dream as a desire that love 

949
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,240
brings to be. 
So he's working all things to 

950
00:54:11,240 --> 00:54:14,160
this end. 
To those who call on his name, 

951
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,680
they can be there in front of 
his face and become come home 

952
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,600
and become ourselves. 
But that means but that's also a

953
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,480
corporate identity, right? 
It's. 

954
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,960
It's not just that I get to be 
who I want to be or think I 

955
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,640
should be. 
It's that I become who I am in 

956
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,600
the bride as the bride, as a 
member of the bride, you know? 

957
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,440
And the funny before you saying 
like, I just want to throw this 

958
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:41,800
on a pile that, that I, I don't 
know if this is, is universal or

959
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:47,320
not, but I, I, I know for me as 
as a man, those those corporate 

960
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:52,560
calls in songs speak to me. 
There's something about being 

961
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,080
called into being part of 
something bigger that speaks to 

962
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,080
me. 
And there's something about sort

963
00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:02,480
of following a great captain and
and there's a great line in the 

964
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,640
silver chair where Eustis just 
says I am the King's man and 

965
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,240
that that's that's a really 
powerful line for me. 

966
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:15,520
And when, when all of our songs 
follow a certain type of of 

967
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,920
relational paradigm and don't 
leave room for that, it 

968
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,880
diminishes not my voice in the 
sense of here or me, but in the 

969
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:28,520
sense of it makes me less called
in to sing. 

970
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,680
And I've met another, a number 
of, of men that are like that as

971
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,480
well. 
And give me, give me this 

972
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,760
greater thing to be called in to
give me a captain to follow. 

973
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,680
Give me a king to serve and get 
paint me this picture of of 

974
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,320
where this is all going. 
So, Matthew, paint me this 

975
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,120
picture, Yes. 
Well, I got to say it. 

976
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:49,360
Also, you saying that reminds me
of Fermere in the In the Houses 

977
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,160
of Healing and Lord of the Rings
when Aragorn, he actually sneaks

978
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,360
in because he's not ready to 
claim the kingship in front of 

979
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:57,760
everybody, but he sneaks in to 
help out. 

980
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,480
And Faramir is in this deep, the
black sleep, you know, the black

981
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:08,640
breath has got him and Faramir 
calls him out of that the depths

982
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,920
of that death. 
And and when he wakes it, just 

983
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,080
reading it makes me cry because 
he says, I heard you calling 

984
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,240
what is what is my King's 
bidding? 

985
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:21,000
You know, what would you have me
do? 

986
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,800
And it's just incredibly 
beautiful. 

987
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,400
That whole chapter is. 
And then when Aragorn answers, 

988
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,720
he says, Of course, our Lord, 
for who would lie idle when the 

989
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:31,160
king has returned? 
Yeah, yeah. 

990
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,560
Awesome. 
So we have that, We have that 

991
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:41,560
charge, that call, and the King 
is calling us and the the kind 

992
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,800
of the bridge of this starts out
and says this is a call for the 

993
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,080
holy Saints. 
Keep watch through the night, 

994
00:56:48,600 --> 00:57:22,530
bravely bearing the pain. 
Go gently now where the river 

995
00:57:22,770 --> 00:57:29,760
goes, whisper soft where the 
primrose grows. 

996
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:37,040
For the years have passed like 
the morning mist, every winter 

997
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:50,560
waste by the spring sun kissed, 
Every veil has been removed and 

998
00:57:50,560 --> 00:58:00,000
the face of God revealed. 
And when you see him seeing you,

999
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,040
you'll be the dream of God made 
true. 

1000
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:22,280
Remember how we were older than 
now? 

1001
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,120
The Lord has made us young 
again. 

1002
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:34,760
And if we weep at all, it's of a
different kind when the beauty 

1003
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:43,120
wells up in the eyes and shines,
because every veil has. 

1004
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:50,240
Been removed. 
And the face of God revealed. 

1005
00:58:53,080 --> 00:59:00,680
And when you see him seeing you,
you'll be the dream of God made 

1006
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:15,930
true. 
This is a call for the holy 

1007
00:59:15,930 --> 00:59:19,850
Saints. 
Keep watch through the night, 

1008
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:26,000
briefly bearing the pain, while 
the dragon grins. 

1009
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:32,160
All fire faint. 
The breath of God shall 

1010
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:39,880
extinguish him, so hold on to 
the hope that took hold of you. 

1011
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:45,480
Though you sleep for a time, you
will wake in truth. 

1012
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:51,120
Though these nightmare hooves 
beat through this midnight 

1013
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:56,600
dream, they will break when the 
dawn rins this world that it 

1014
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:04,080
seems, and the rider arrives on 
a white War Horse to reclaim 

1015
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:10,640
everything that was lost. 
In the war you will hear his 

1016
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:16,960
name like a trumpet blast. 
Every lover will sing. 

1017
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:24,280
He is come at last, And the 
dream of God will be all that 

1018
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:28,800
remains. 
When the bride looks with love 

1019
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:40,680
on the Lamb was slain. 
Because every veil has been 

1020
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:51,400
removed and the face of God 
revealed, and when you see him 

1021
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:58,080
seeing you, you'll be the dream 
of God made true. 

1022
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,560
Awesome like that. 
Thanks. 

1023
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,120
Yes. 
Thank you. 

1024
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,200
Beautiful. 
Thank you both. 

1025
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:08,400
Yeah, you're. 
Spending this much time talking 

1026
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:15,760
about this and for those of you 
listening, if you are a if you 

1027
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:22,080
make music in any way, write 
more we songs or seek them out 

1028
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,320
and popularize them and help 
other people sing that. 

1029
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,000
Share them with us. 
And yeah, and if you want to, if

1030
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:30,720
you want to be a part of 
something like that and don't 

1031
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,920
know where to start now, just 
contact us on our website at 

1032
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,680
anselmsociety.org cuz we're 
starting stuff like that. 

1033
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,440
Till next time. 
The Imagination Redeemed podcast

1034
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,360
is a production of the Anselm 
Society. 

1035
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,640
It's easy to see this world as 
disenchanted and to give up hope

1036
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,320
that there's more. 
But you were made to see the 

1037
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,560
world with the eyes of heaven 
and to live a bountiful life 

1038
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:56,520
that participates in the life of
God like in the great stories. 

1039
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:01,480
To help make this show possible,
go to anselmsociety.org/podcast 

1040
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:06,120
25 and make a donation. 
The Anselm Society is a place 

1041
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,080
where you can come in and 
experience that beauty, joyful 

1042
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,840
celebration, and ancient wisdom 
and go out renewed, bringing 

1043
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:17,640
that life to your vocation, 
home, and church. 

1044
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,880
Learn more at anselmsociety.org 
and join us next time as we 

1045
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,760
pursue a renaissance of the 
Christian imagination together.