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Martin Avdeitch lived in a 
basement room with one window 

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looking onto the streets. 
He was a cobbler, had been for 

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40 years, and his hands bore the
calluses and scars of his trade.

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His wife was long dead, his 
children were buried. 

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For a time he had raged at God, 
but an old Pilgrim had taught 

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him to read, and slowly, through
the Gospels, the rage had given 

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way to something else. 
One winter evening, Martin sat 

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with his lamp burning low, 
reading Christ's words about 

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welcoming strangers, feeding the
hungry clothing the naked. 

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His lips moved as he read, 
tasting each promise. 

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Lord, he whispered, his breath 
misting in the cold air, If you 

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came to my door, I would serve 
you with all my heart. 

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That night, between sleep and 
waking, a voice spoke. 

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Martin, tomorrow I shall come. 
He woke before dawn, lit his 

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lamp and set to work stitching a
boot. 

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But his eyes kept lifting to the
window. 

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The street lay empty under fresh
snow. 

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Then a figure appeared, a 
soldier sweeping the pavement 

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with a broom too short for his 
height, forcing him to bend low 

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with each stroke. 
His breath came in clouds, his 

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hands were raw, and when he 
paused to blow on them, Martin 

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saw how the cold had gotten into
him. 

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Not just his skin, but deeper 
into his bones and spirit. 

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Martin tapped the glass. 
The soldier looked up, 

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suspicious, his face hard with 
the weariness of a man who 

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expects nothing good from 
strangers. 

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But Martin beckoned anyway. 
I'm working, the soldier said 

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when he came inside, not quite 
meeting Martin's eyes. 

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You're freezing, Martin replied,
already pouring tea. 

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Sit. 
The soldiers sat stiffly at 

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first, holding the cup as if it 
might be taken back. 

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But as the warmth spread through
him, his shoulders dropped. 

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He told Martin he'd been 
discharged after 20 years 

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service, given 3 rubles and this
job sweeping snow. 

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His wife was dead. 
His son wouldn't speak to him. 

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I don't know what I did wrong, 
he said, staring into his tea. 

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Except maybe I was gone too 
much. 

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Except maybe I was always gone 
when he left. 

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He gripped Martin's hand with 
surprising force. 

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Thank you, he said, and 
something in his eyes made 

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Martin's throat tighten. 
But this isn't the visit, Martin

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thought, returning to his work. 
Surely the Lord will come 

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differently. 
Hours later, a young woman 

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passed by, clutching a baby 
wrapped in summer rags against 

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the February wind. 
The child's cry was thin and 

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desperate, the sound of a 
creature giving up. 

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Martin's hand was already on the
door before he decided to move. 

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She came in reluctantly, shame 
written across her face. 

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I'm not a beggar, she said 
quickly. 

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Of course not, Martin replied, 
putting bread and milk on the 

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table. 
But the child is cold. 

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As she ate, the story came out 
in pieces. 

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Her husband had gone to look for
work in Moscow, promising to 

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send money. 
That was six months ago. 

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She'd sold everything. 
Furniture, dishes, her wedding 

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ring. 
Yesterday she'd sold her winter 

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coat. 
She held the baby close as she 

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spoke, as if trying to hide the 
worst of her circumstances 

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behind the small body. 
Here, Martin said, pulling his 

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late wife's shawl from a chest. 
It was good wool, warm, and it 

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smelled faintly of lavender. 
The woman's hands trembled as 

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she took it. 
I'll pay you back, she 

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whispered. 
You owe me nothing, Martin said.

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The shawl was my Anna's. 
She would have wanted, and his 

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voice caught. 
She would have wanted the baby 

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to be warm. 
The woman wept as she left. 

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Martin stood at his window, 
watching her disappear into the 

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crowd, the shawl a splash of 
dark blue against the white 

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snow. 
That was good, he thought, but 

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where is he? 
In the afternoon, an old woman's

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shriek cut through the street 
noise. 

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Martin looked up to see her 
clutching A ragged boy by the 

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collar, 10 years old, maybe, 
with a face too sharp and 

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knowing for his age. 
An apple lay in the snow between

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them. 
Thief, the woman shouted. 

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Little devil, I was hungry, the 
boy yelled back, twisting like a

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caught rabbit. 
Your apples are hot. 

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Your apples are half rotten 
anyway. 

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Martin pushed between them. 
The boy had the look of someone 

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who'd learned to expect blows, 
flinching before the hand even 

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moved. 
The old woman was breathing 

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hard, her basket of apples 
clutched to her chest like 

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armor. 
How much for that apple? 

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Martin asked. 
It's not about the money, the 

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woman snapped. 
It's about respect. 

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It's about. 
She stopped, looking at the 

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boy's thin face and the way his 
coat hung on him, and something 

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shifted in her eyes. 
Martin pressed a coin into her 

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palm anyway. 
The boys stared at both of them,

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00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,760
calculating the odds, looking 
for the trick. 

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Forgive me, grandmother, he said
finally, the words coming out 

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rough and unpracticed. 
God forgive you, child, she 

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answered, and her voice broke. 
She reached into her basket and 

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pressed an apple into his hand. 
A good one, not rotten at all. 

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Here, take it proper this time. 
Evening came, and Martin lit his

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lamp and opened his Bible with 
unsteady hands. 

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Where were you, the Lord? 
You promised. 

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And then the voice came again, 
gentle, certain. 

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Martin, did you not know me? 
And there in the lamplight stood

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the soldier warming his raw 
hands, the mother holding her 

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baby close, the old woman and 
the boy together, an apple 

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passing between them. 
I was hungry, I was cold, I was 

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naked, I was a stranger. 
And whatever you did for the 

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least of these, you did for me. 
The figures faded like mist. 

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Martin sat alone in his basement
room, tears running into his 

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beard. 
But somehow the lamp light 

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seemed brighter than before, as 
if a second sun had risen in 

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that small space where a cobbler
had learned to recognize the 

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face of God. 
Welcome to the Imagination 

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Redeemed podcast, where we 
follow the great stories further

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up and further in in pursuit of 
the life of Christ. 

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Welcome to Imagination Redeemed,
everyone. 

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I'm Brian Brown, joins today by 
Sarah Howell, Christina Brown 

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and our storyteller Matthew 
Clark channeling Tolstoy. 

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Thanks for the read, Matthew. 
Absolutely. 

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So the other night Christina and
I were hosting a Christmas party

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at our house and I found myself 
in conversation with a couple of

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friends and we we got to talking
I think. 

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I think the story started with 
procrastination. 

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We were talking about how even 
20 years ago it was, it was 

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pretty normal for someone to to 
utter the phrase, I am a 

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procrastinator, right? 
As an identity thing. 

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I particularly remember this 
from college. 

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There was this huge swath of 
people for whom that's my, 

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that's my identity. 
Therefore, I can't plan ahead. 

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I can't do this. 
I can't do that. 

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I am a procrastinator. 
And I think there are a lot of 

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ways that modern culture has 
taught us to lead with our 

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limitations as identity markers.
As our story reminds us, there's

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always the the temptation to to 
do this with money and and 

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possessions, but it seems like 
the list of things that we can't

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possibly do keeps getting 
longer. 

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You'll hear I'm an introvert, so
I don't this or I can't that. 

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I'm not a people person. 
That's just not my personality. 

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We've pathologized a lot of 
things, but even when we don't, 

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we have a tendency to turn 
constraints into character, and 

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we tend to define ourselves by 
what we can't do rather than but

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what by what we might become. 
And sometimes we tell ourselves 

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that's humility. 
But what we're going to talk 

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about today is we're going to 
play with this Tolstoy story. 

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And on some level, the takeaways
obvious, but there's a lot of 

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depth to it. 
And there's a lot of depth to 

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the historic church's answer to 
this question of a what is this 

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thing that we do to ourselves 
when we kind of shrink back and 

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and what's the antidote? 
So in this episode you 3 are 

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going to give me the antidote 
and it's going to be great. 

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No pressure. 
No, no, no pressure at all. 

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So can we lead with this, this 
shrinking back thing? 

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What thoughts do you have on on 
that, either where you've where 

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you've seen it or where you 
think it comes from? 

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I'm curious to consider how 
much, at least in my lived 

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experience with the age of the 
Internet and mass media and 

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information kind of right in my 
face at all times, how much 

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there is this kind of soft 
disguise of humility to state 

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your place in the world, which 
is I'm very small. 

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And when you look at how much 
people have done and will do and

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how big of an impact there can 
be, there's I need to make sure 

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that I understand my place, 
which is not to be one of those.

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I can watch amazing people do 
things in the Olympics, but I 

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know that I can barely do a 
cartwheel. 

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And so having such proximity in 
information and visualization of

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such greatness, I think makes a 
lot of us average people shrink 

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back in a certain way, as well 
as the specialization of our 

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modern world. 
It's like, well, since I'm not 

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devoting 12 hours a day to 
gymnastics, then I feel really 

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confident and comfortable saying
I'm just not athletic. 

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I'm just, I'm not someone who 
knows how to do those, anything 

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like that. 
So I'm just going to sit on the 

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couch instead of even dancing 
with you guys. 

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00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,680
Yeah, Matthew and I talked about
that with Terry Moon in our our 

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two-part episode on singing, how
we're the vast majority of our 

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exposure to human singing now is
through pre recorded highly 

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produced versions of the perfect
take and, and how that that 

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colors our perception of what 
normal singing is and therefore 

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it colors our perception of what
we are capable of. 

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00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,400
That's a really good point. 
Christina Matthew, what about 

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you? 
Yeah, I was thinking about it in

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terms of hosting things like I, 
I play a lot of house concerts 

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in people's homes. 
And one of the almost the very 

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first thing out of people's 
mouths when I say, would you 

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00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,680
like to host a house concert is 
something like, oh, my home's 

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not good enough. 
It's not big enough, it's not 

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00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,480
fancy enough. 
And they're, and they feel like 

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00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,640
they can't do it because, oh, I 
and, and I usually say I've 

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played in all kinds of places 
and I can guarantee you that 

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00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,200
your home is fine. 
It's and that one of the ideas 

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00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,120
by the end of a house concert, I
feel like people have learned 

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00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,160
that their house can do 
something that they didn't know 

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00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,880
their house could do and that 
what they, whatever they have is

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enough that it's not. 
But there is definitely a sense 

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00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:34,320
of I want to shrink back. 
I want to shrink back from 

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00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:39,280
offering that because I just 
don't, I can't see my resources 

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00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,200
and imagine how they could be 
adequate, how they could be good

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00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,000
enough. 
Does that resonate? 

195
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,560
Yes, yeah. 
And I think it's, it's easy to 

196
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,360
just kind of write all of this 
off as lack of self-confidence. 

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00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:03,280
But the, it was interesting. 
So a number of months ago, Sarah

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00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:09,440
put me on the, the scholar 
Rebecca Deyoung, who's scholar 

199
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:14,240
on, on virtue ethics. 
And I was reading a, a paper 

200
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,520
that she wrote on Aquinas's 
writing on, on this trend. 

201
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,600
And there was this fancy old 
word for it, pusillanimity, 

202
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,400
which I'm only going to say once
I only got No, that's it. 

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00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,240
That's all you get. 
Beautifully said. 

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00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,640
Just guess I wish you would say 
it again. 

205
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,480
Say it three times fast to be 
thrown out of the room. 

206
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:41,040
But it means smallness of soul. 
I think it's a little bit easier

207
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:46,400
for us to, to write off fear as 
an understandable emotion. 

208
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,640
But Aquinas and, and Aristotle 
before him were pretty harsh on 

209
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:59,480
this actually. 
And they, they identified 3 

210
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,760
patterns that kind of feed this 
and see, see if any of this 

211
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:06,920
sounds familiar. 
So where, where does this come 

212
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,160
from? 
The first one is that we, we 

213
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,040
measure ourselves negatively 
against others. 

214
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,720
So we're, we look around at this
horizontal perspective, this 

215
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,360
fundamentally horizontal 
perspective of, of values, 

216
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:26,920
There's me, there's other people
and then I'm worse than them. 

217
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,480
So we compare, like we said, you
know, we compare our voices to 

218
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,000
the recorded voices, our 
kitchens to Pinterest, our gifts

219
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,600
to someone more talented, our 
resources to someone more 

220
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,360
abundant. 
And they contrast this with a a 

221
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:48,600
vertical ethic that understands 
us as having value and gifts 

222
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,960
connected to God, which we'll 
get more to more into you later.

223
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,080
But when we have that default 
posture of there's me and 

224
00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:00,360
there's everybody else and 
they're better than me, that's 

225
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,240
real easy to do. 
Yeah. 

226
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,560
And we start using words, can't 
words like can't, you know, I 

227
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,080
can't afford to be generous. 
I can't afford to do that thing.

228
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,280
And when what we mean is I don't
feel adequate. 

229
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,480
Well, maybe we've talked about 
this before, but that, that 

230
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,720
language, the language of 
affording has been really 

231
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:34,400
important to me because just in 
the, the, the way that you just 

232
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,840
used it, you didn't literally 
mean like, I don't have the 

233
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,040
financial resources you meant. 
Like I don't. 

234
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:47,480
There's something about me 
that's not enough and or there's

235
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:54,280
something about the way things 
are that means I can't give, I 

236
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,760
can't afford to do that. 
And that's something I felt 

237
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,800
really convicted about over the 
years that the Lord was saying. 

238
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,839
What do you actually believe 
about reality, the reality that 

239
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,480
I am supplying? 
Does that mean if you're 

240
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,720
situated in that context, then 
if it really is a reality of 

241
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,760
super abundance, then you can 
afford. 

242
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,520
And it doesn't necessarily mean 
like I have to get more and then

243
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,400
I'll be able to afford. 
It means right now, right now 

244
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,640
things are such that I can be 
kind to this person. 

245
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:33,720
I can smile at that person. 
I can have some people over for 

246
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,800
dinner and eat, you know, ramen 
or whatever. 

247
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,920
Looks like Martin in the story. 
There's a quiet confidence to 

248
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,760
the way that he just responds to
the need. 

249
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,400
Yeah, he's a cobbler. 
He doesn't have a big fancy 

250
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,280
place. 
And the things that he does for 

251
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,640
people in that story are not 
incredibly difficult things. 

252
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,600
They're, you know, it's like a 
cup of water. 

253
00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,720
Let me adjudicate between this 
and get this apple for this boy 

254
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,680
and help this lady relax. 
Let me, you know, get a cup of 

255
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,800
tea for somebody. 
They're doable, you know. 

256
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,280
But also, I think it's 
interesting because I'm struck 

257
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:20,160
by how kind of unself aware 
Martin is in the story. 

258
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,600
He's not thinking about himself 
in relation to the others. 

259
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,000
He's actively looking to make 
sure that he doesn't miss the 

260
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,920
Lord coming. 
And when he's doing that, he 

261
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,640
can't help but notice these 
things that require attention. 

262
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,760
And so there's some wording, the
way that the story goes that you

263
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,680
read Matthews that like, he his 
hand was on the handle before he

264
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,080
decided to open the door. 
Yeah. 

265
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,440
I thought about that too. 
It's so funny. 

266
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,440
It's it's. 
Wonderful. 

267
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,520
And and when you have the kind 
of duration that happens when 

268
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,280
you first compare and then you 
make an action, that kind of 

269
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,040
quickness of hand to a handle is
not going to be present when you

270
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,160
have this comparison kind of 
like shoved into the middle of 

271
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,960
any decision you make. 
And I think that's key. 

272
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:22,000
Yeah, I don't want to 
misattribute a Lewis quote, but 

273
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,720
was it Lewis who said humility 
isn't thinking less of yourself,

274
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,760
but thinking of yourself less? 
Yeah. 

275
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,320
OK, I don't know. 
I don't want to be that person 

276
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,240
who shares the meme on Facebook 
only to discover that it was 

277
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:38,600
written by nobody. 
Hey, somebody, Somebody has a 

278
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,040
snatch of wisdom. 
Somebody and I also want to draw

279
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,200
attention to one other thing 
before we get into the second 

280
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,680
and third things about this 
smallness of soul that's 

281
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,280
shrinking back because we can 
think about it in terms of of 

282
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,520
resources. 
The story's fairly literal, 

283
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,880
right There's material need and 
he's meeting material need with 

284
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,520
his limited but existing 
material resources. 

285
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,200
But we do this with. 
Bigger pictures of self worth. 

286
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,880
And we do this with things 
related to talent too. 

287
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,320
I mean, we see this in the the 
the creative spaces all the 

288
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,960
time. 
There are so many ways in which 

289
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:22,320
we can be called forth into 
joining the work of God in some 

290
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,360
way, whether it is in in 
creating something new or 

291
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:30,120
telling a story or writing a 
song or whatever it might be. 

292
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,760
Putting ourselves forward 
essentially as as I've got 

293
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,120
something to offer that's 
valuable and and we can those 

294
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:40,760
are those are additional 
contexts right, in which we can 

295
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,480
have this tendency to shrink 
back. 

296
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,280
So we already talked about one 
example of the measuring 

297
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,440
ourselves negatively against 
others in that context, the 

298
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,320
singing one. 
The second thing that Aquinas 

299
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,120
notes about this that feeds into
the smallness of soul is the 

300
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,200
idea that we cling to an ideal 
of self-reliance. 

301
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,320
Basically say if I can't do it 
perfectly by myself, I won't do 

302
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:12,720
it at all. 
So I'm I'm not enough. 

303
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,080
And because I'm not enough, it 
can't possibly happen. 

304
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,720
And then the third one is we 
depend desperately on others 

305
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,280
opinions, letting worldly 
standards of greatness determine

306
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,640
what is even worth attempting. 
There, there's almost an erosion

307
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,440
of values that happens when we 
depend on other people's 

308
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,720
opinions so that the goal just 
changes. 

309
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,720
The one that I I'm thinking of 
specifically that mere Slav Wolf

310
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,280
in his new book, The Cost of 
Ambition talks about is with the

311
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,440
intense competition in elite 
education and how that shifts 

312
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,960
the focus from learning for its 
own sake to mere status 

313
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,520
attainment. 
And so like we've seen this with

314
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:07,560
the admission scandals and when 
we shift our standard from 

315
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:13,040
something that is like 
objectively good to something as

316
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,160
shifting as the opinions of 
others, we're we're literally 

317
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,560
shifting the trajectory and the 
goals of our lives. 

318
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,880
It's not just that the 
motivation is tainted. 

319
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:30,080
Do you find that how that plays 
out in either your life or the 

320
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,840
context that you've seen? 
Do you find that that is colored

321
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,560
by the lack of face to face 
encounters versus face to face 

322
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,360
encounters? 
Like are you more likely to give

323
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,040
into this smallness of soul when
you're thinking about things 

324
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,800
like something done online or 
something encountered online or 

325
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,760
even just the question? 
I've noticed even since since 

326
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,120
COVID, people just kind of built
habits of not leaving their 

327
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,600
house. 
So it takes more to get them to 

328
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,040
leave their house and they're 
more, they're less likely to say

329
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,280
yes, and then they're more 
likely to cancel the minute it 

330
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,360
kind of gets. 
Yeah, the minute that yeah, you 

331
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,000
hit, you hit the discomfort 
point, kind of shrink back and 

332
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,920
you send that cancellation. 
Sorry, can't make it. 

333
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,600
I think, I think a lot of that 
is, I mean the the concept of 

334
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:27,200
the root word of oh, goodness, 
fusillanimity and magnanimity. 

335
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:28,160
Love. 
You. 

336
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,720
Look at that and we're 4 for. 4 
I'm working my way up to it. 

337
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,640
I don't have the confidence yet.
I'm comparing myself to you guys

338
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,920
and I feel like I don't have 
enough to pronunciation skills 

339
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,800
to do. 
This. 

340
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,360
Hey, if it makes you feel 
better, apparently so. 

341
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:52,440
Some of the etymology is from 
Old French and I do like and 

342
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,880
know some French, so maybe 
that's where my skills came 

343
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,520
from. 
So if you do not know French, 

344
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,360
then you couldn't excuse 
yourself from any requirements. 

345
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,520
You didn't care about this word 
at all. 

346
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,320
And then and then you found out 
it had was French in origin and 

347
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,240
you're like, oh, let's talk. 
Not true, but anyway, I was just

348
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,520
trying to give Matthew an out, 
but, you know, thank you. 

349
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,320
You're welcome. 
No, but for real though, you 

350
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,240
know, I don't know which came 
first, the Old French or the 

351
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:28,040
Latin, however likely Latin, but
the animus means like soul or 

352
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,040
like animation. 
You think of like something 

353
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,440
that's alive and breathing and 
breath sort of living. 

354
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,400
And so when I think about what 
your question, Brian, when 

355
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,800
you're talking about is it 
harder to practice magnanimity 

356
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,360
and easier to practice 
pusillanimity, I think I got it 

357
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,600
when you're not encountering a 
face. 

358
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,480
And I think when you said that, 
the answer, of course was yes. 

359
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,240
But when he when I thought about
why it was, it's it's about the 

360
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,680
face. 
And I think there's something 

361
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,520
about being face to face with 
someone. 

362
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,800
First of all, there's like no 
excuse. 

363
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,320
You know, you can't just like 
look at someone, just be like 

364
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,960
don't want to talk. 
You know, you couldn't click the

365
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,120
ignore button on your phone. 
You know, you can like answer a 

366
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,840
text later. 
You know, you can like look at a

367
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,600
Facebook message and be like, 
OK, I can answer that like after

368
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,320
dinner tonight or whatever. 
But when you're face to face to 

369
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,000
someone, you're like directly 
met with their immediate needs, 

370
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,600
their immediate like physical 
being, their animatedness, and 

371
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:31,600
you are required to respond. 
Not not even just like morally 

372
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,560
required. 
But there's something about two 

373
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,320
animals. 
If you're going to like be 

374
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,400
really like bring it down to 
basics, but two animals 

375
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,040
encountering each other, they're
going to react. 

376
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,640
You know, they're either going 
to sit there and stare at each 

377
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,840
other inside each other up, or 
they're going to flee or 

378
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,600
interact or whatever it is. 
But I think there's something 

379
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,760
where you cannot escape that 
interaction. 

380
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,480
And so when you are face to face
with someone who has a need, 

381
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:03,800
yes, it's a lot harder to say no
and makes it more in your face 

382
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,000
to say yes, I guess. 
It I love I love this Christina.

383
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,240
Thank you so much. 
I, I never considered how modern

384
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,880
technology in the way that we 
interact with, most of us 

385
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,640
interact with it is literally 
habituating us into shrinking 

386
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,160
back from hard things. 
You know, like we get a dopamine

387
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,200
rush when we look at our phone 
and our notification. 

388
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,400
And then when it's something 
hard we have to deal with, we're

389
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:33,960
like, oh, no, maybe later. 
Maybe when I feel like I'm in a 

390
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,040
place where I can really 
interact with this well. 

391
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,400
Yep. 
Which? 

392
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,640
Which is wild. 
Yeah, it really is fun. 

393
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,080
Fun fact I there. 
So there's there's a phrase that

394
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,760
I've heard a lot in reading 
contemporary social science 

395
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,880
about procrastination to go back
with that to that example. 

396
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,680
And the phrase is always 
something like procrastination 

397
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,840
isn't laziness, it's a 
discomfort response or, you 

398
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,480
know, whatever the particular 
articles focusing on. 

399
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,600
And I was thinking about that 
phrase just a couple days ago 

400
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,520
and I just had the thought, 
isn't it still laziness? 

401
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,120
And, and so I started, I, I 
started digging into both the 

402
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:23,040
social science and, and older 
writings on sloth on acedia. 

403
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,080
And yeah, sure enough, they 
dovetailed pretty neatly. 

404
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,960
So essentially, if you say this 
discomfort response isn't 

405
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,600
laziness, all you've done is 
just defined laziness out of 

406
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,760
existence because the, that's, 
that's precisely what 

407
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,120
procrastination is. 
That's precisely what the, the 

408
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,320
more the older understanding of 
laziness is, it's the shrinking 

409
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,520
back from this thing that is 
difficult. 

410
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,480
And actually this smallness of 
soul that we're talking about is

411
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,360
considered a, a subset of that. 
It's this bigger. 

412
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,960
It's it's a smaller piece of a 
bigger puzzle in which we build 

413
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,360
habits of shrinking back from 
the hard thing. 

414
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,280
I think something that people 
are trying to do when they call 

415
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,720
procrastination, not just 
laziness, is their start. 

416
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,720
They're trying to pinpoint 
something sloth that medieval 

417
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:21,760
vice defines really well, which 
is apathy or weariness or a form

418
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:27,280
of sorrow. 
And, and that is a very real 

419
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:33,720
thing when you are bombarded all
day with too much, There is a 

420
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,640
certain level where we do need 
to shrink back from some of it. 

421
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:47,520
And, and so I, I think it's 
important to be realistic about 

422
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,520
what is the world that we live 
in and how is it shaping us and 

423
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,120
gearing us towards automatically
with just the way our lives are 

424
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:02,640
set up to have a tendency to be 
weary, to be apathetic and to 

425
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,840
move towards laziness and 
shrinking back, not just because

426
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,440
we don't love Jesus enough, but 
that because we're in a 

427
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,720
particular kind of context. 
Yeah. 

428
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,880
Yeah, there. 
There's few things I want to see

429
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,440
if I can pull together. 
I was thinking about a a 

430
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,520
particular philosopher, Emmanuel
Levanos, and he talks about how 

431
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:35,120
the face, the face is a thing 
that that requires a response 

432
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,920
that is. 
I was still hoping you'd bring 

433
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,360
this up, Matthew. 
I was almost going to ask if you

434
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,360
could, but then I was like. 
I don't know if I should. 

435
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,680
Ask him that. 
I love it. 

436
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,880
Keep going, keep going. 
But he, yeah, he talks about 

437
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:46,600
this. 
Is it? 

438
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,320
It requires a response, a 
responsibility. 

439
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,080
A face calls us to 
responsibility. 

440
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,720
We can't just remain neutral. 
We can't. 

441
00:29:53,080 --> 00:30:01,160
But there's something about the 
online face that allows us to 

442
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,800
feel like we're responding that 
I feel like feels different when

443
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:13,160
you're in person. 
I think we can, we can actually 

444
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,720
be shrinking back in the way 
that we respond online because 

445
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:23,000
because we're not we because 
there's a kind of buffer zone 

446
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,600
between anybody is going to 
respond to whatever response we 

447
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,200
give. 
We can protect ourselves from 

448
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,200
it. 
And so we can kind of cowardly, 

449
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,080
like lob things out there at 
people and and call them 

450
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,240
responses or, but, but that 
feels very different when you're

451
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,600
really face to face in a room 
with another live person. 

452
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,520
Like you're talking about 
Christina, you feel, you feel 

453
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,280
maybe some hesitation like that.
Maybe I wouldn't say what I said

454
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,040
would say online because now I 
feel different that this real 

455
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,000
person is here. 
And so maybe the difference 

456
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,200
between those two, maybe there's
a kind of procrastination that 

457
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:07,480
actually is a kind of cowardice 
that is we're being trained in 

458
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,320
by online interactions that we, 
if we, if we were with people in

459
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,600
real life, it would be, it would
be training us to know how to 

460
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,480
really show up with an actual 
person and, and have a, a better

461
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,160
response. 
I don't know if that's too weird

462
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,640
or vague to. 
Does that make any sense? 

463
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,840
Let me pile on a little bit 
because that's really 

464
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,640
interesting that I can think of 
another example of that. 

465
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,800
So, so you used one example of 
sort of lobbing the grenade 

466
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,800
where you can, you can kind of 
say the incendiary thing and 

467
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,280
then run. 
But the other is I do this all 

468
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,320
the time responding to a comment
or a tweet or something, not 

469
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:54,120
with the the good of the person 
I'm talking to in mind, but with

470
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,680
the awareness that the entire 
Internet is listening to what 

471
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,400
I'm saying to that person. 
So so which can which can lead 

472
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,240
me to self edit in a useful way.
But more often it just causes me

473
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,360
to self edit way too much. 
Whereas if I were just having a 

474
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,800
face to face conversation with 
you on my back porch, I would be

475
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,400
much more a, I'd be much more 
likely to just kind of say what 

476
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,920
was in my mind and let you 
dialogue back and forth with it 

477
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,680
as we push our way towards the 
truth. 

478
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,880
But I'd also be able to spawn 
and respond in a way that's much

479
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,320
more specific to your situation.
And so there's this other, it's 

480
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,720
not, you know, necessarily 
cowardice, but but there's that 

481
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,960
that type of interaction that 
you're describing does kind of 

482
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:43,200
train you to limit the ways in 
which you respond and the way 

483
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,280
it's when you you engage. 
I also, I think there's 

484
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,320
something quite physical that 
happens when two people are face

485
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,480
to face and next to each other. 
There's more and more modern 

486
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,400
science that talks about the 
molecules and the electromatic 

487
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,520
electromagnetic fields of our 
bodies interacting and playing 

488
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,200
golf with each other. 
So a lot of people, you know, 

489
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,880
like the Asians have been on to 
this for forever and they have 

490
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,920
all these names for that. 
But, but there's actually 

491
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,280
something very scientific about 
it. 

492
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,320
And so obviously when you're 
interacting with someone face to

493
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,600
face, you are feeling probably 
very unconsciously or 

494
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,120
consciously, except that it's 
making you uncomfortable, right?

495
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,560
A very real interaction with 
this person in front of you. 

496
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,000
Whereas if there's a screen or 
if there is another layer, 

497
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,920
right, an e-mail that you're 
answering, it's not, it doesn't 

498
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,160
have that same. 
Oh goodness, they're right here.

499
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,400
I need to really react and I 
need to do it thoughtfully. 

500
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,760
And you know, it's going to 
matter what I say face to face 

501
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,080
when someone's eyes are looking 
directly at you. 

502
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,920
I think eyes really are a window
into the soul. 

503
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,960
And you can see something in 
somebody's eyes that you can't 

504
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,840
catch or you can't see as well 
when you're on a screen or 

505
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,800
you're sending Twitter messages 
or whatever. 

506
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,960
Or even just like if we're 
talking about sort of a 

507
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,480
generosity and a magnanimity and
how we serve people. 

508
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,520
Even if you were to just donate 
to your local food bank, you 

509
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,280
know, it's not the same as going
to the food bank, meeting those 

510
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,440
people in the eyes, giving them 
soup, letting your hands touch 

511
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,120
them, you know, letting them 
look at you in some of those 

512
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,040
weird ways that make you 
uncomfortable and actually 

513
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,000
respond in grace. 
Like those are very different 

514
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,639
things. 
And I think things just are 

515
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,679
different, like physically when 
you are face to face with 

516
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,840
someone. 
And so I know Matthew, you've 

517
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,719
talked a lot about like the eyes
and how you can kind of see the 

518
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,719
face of God in the eyes of 
someone else. 

519
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,159
So I'd love to see if you have 
anything to say to to say about 

520
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:46,679
that. 
But but yeah, that's kind of 

521
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,719
something I was thinking of too,
is it's not just cowardice. 

522
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,639
And it is cowardice in a lot of 
ways, but it's also timidity. 

523
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:54,840
It's being a layer removed. 
And I think there's a very 

524
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,240
strong reason that our that we 
feel compelled to act when 

525
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:01,240
there's someone standing in 
front of us and. 

526
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,960
There is a real risk. 
I I don't want to to mitigate 

527
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,080
that part. 
If we could imagine Martin 

528
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,680
staying inside of his home and 
talking to these three, into 

529
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,720
these three encounters from the 
safety of his home through a 

530
00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:20,240
window, what kind of response 
and what kind of interaction 

531
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:25,120
would have been like? 
I'm I for almost all of them, 

532
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,480
especially the soldier and the 
young boy. 

533
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:37,040
The story goes that they are. 
They're expecting the T to be 

534
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,840
taken away. 
They're expecting a hand to hit 

535
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,760
them before it even is raised. 
There is this faith that is 

536
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,600
required. 
It's it's almost like so there's

537
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,400
a lack of faith, there's a 
failure of faith when we are 

538
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,000
pusillinis. 
Pusillin, Brian. 

539
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:58,680
You are so. 
Close. 

540
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,800
When we have a small soul, but 
it's even harder than that to 

541
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,400
have magnaminity, to have a 
greatness of soul, we have to 

542
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:16,520
have more faith and have 
reciprocity from God that is 

543
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:21,680
outflowing from us to interact 
with someone who's going to have

544
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,840
a non reciprocal relationship. 
They're coming at Martin with 

545
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,760
antagonism from the get go. 
He has to subdue that, and 

546
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,360
that's a risk because they can 
outright reject what he gives 

547
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,400
them and how he extends his 
offer. 

548
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,840
It's much safer to stay inside 
and talk through the window. 

549
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,480
And so to realize that we have 
to get off of our own terms, be 

550
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:49,480
it with these nice parallels 
with modern technology or just 

551
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,920
in our regular days, even with 
our family members within the 

552
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,240
household or when we go to work,
that we have to recognize there 

553
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:59,880
is a risk. 
And we do need to have the the 

554
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:08,960
faith from God to source our 
courage in non reciprocity 

555
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,880
encounters. 
Yeah, I think that's a like 

556
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,960
carrying Christ within us. 
That's that's a huge piece of 

557
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,520
losing ourselves in how we might
respond if they do reject us or 

558
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,240
if they respond in ways that we 
like really make us 

559
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,480
uncomfortable or regret what we,
you know, we're going to do. 

560
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,080
But it's that carrying of Christ
within us. 

561
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,880
I think that it's like that 
confidence that says, oh, but 

562
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,960
it's OK, because this is what 
Christ would have done. 

563
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,720
It doesn't matter how they 
respond. 

564
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,200
You know I have given Christ to 
this person. 

565
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,440
Yeah. 
And this whole trend of thought 

566
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,800
that the pair of you are are 
digging into here is it's a good

567
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,280
transition to what's the 
antidote to all this. 

568
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,520
And you mentioned it, Sarah 
magnanimity. 

569
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,240
That's the that's the other hard
to pronounce word that that the 

570
00:37:53,240 --> 00:38:00,320
ancients held up as, as the, the
antidote to this smallness of 

571
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,280
soul. 
And it's different from the the 

572
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,640
horizontal axis of of self 
understanding where I'm 

573
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,240
comparing myself to everyone 
else. 

574
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,000
Instead, it's this vertical 
access that's axis that is is 

575
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:15,720
built on my relationship with 
God. 

576
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:22,200
I'm I'm at the same time 
radically dependent on God, but 

577
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,720
also capable of incredible 
things through divine 

578
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:35,520
participation. 
And Aquinas was very keen to 

579
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,840
ensure that his his readers 
understood that this was in 

580
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,160
everyone thing. 
This was not a personality trait

581
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,200
thing, just like we talked about
with joviality in our last full 

582
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,720
episode, It's it's actually 
something that you can aspire to

583
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:54,200
and learn. 
And just like the shrinking back

584
00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:01,360
can be cultivated and made worse
through habits. 

585
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,840
You know, you do it once, you 
make it more more likely to do 

586
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,800
it again. 
You do it 100 times in a row. 

587
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,400
You convince yourself that's who
you are. 

588
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,560
Magnanimity works the same way. 
It's something that you can lean

589
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,520
into and build towards. 
And, you know, it's that one, 

590
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,240
one small decision that leads to
other things. 

591
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,800
But for me, the $1,000,000 
question is always, you know, 

592
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,760
it's never should I define 
myself by my relationship with 

593
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,000
God. 
It's always the how. 

594
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,560
How do I get myself to that 
point? 

595
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:37,920
And I want to spend the rest of 
our conversation pulling from a 

596
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:43,760
a newer writer compared to 
Aquinas, and that is John 

597
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:50,800
Witherspoon, the early American 
pastor, preacher, university 

598
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,600
president. 
And he had, he wrote this great 

599
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,440
sermon that delved into 
magnanimity. 

600
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,480
And he he had five principles of
magnanimity that I think are 

601
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,440
worth us kind of going into 
sequentially. 

602
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,080
So what does it look like to be 
magnanimous? 

603
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,520
The first. 
Principle if you want to be 

604
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,920
magnanimous, if you want to be 
generous, if you want to be 

605
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,680
someone who just like the jovial
person, channels the great joy 

606
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,680
of of God and gives it to 
others. 

607
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:26,600
Magnanimity channels the 
generosity of God and and is I'm

608
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,800
just a lucky fellow that gets to
deliver it and gives it to 

609
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,360
others. 
So principle number one is 

610
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,640
attempt great and difficult 
things. 

611
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:42,320
What do we do with that, Sarah? 
I, I as a mom, I have a lot of, 

612
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,400
I have a lot of kid analogies in
my head. 

613
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,880
One, I guess the quote from the 
the concept from Montessori 

614
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,800
being that you want your child 
to be at the edge of their 

615
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,560
limitations. 
Yeah, known of proximal 

616
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:56,800
development. 
Isn't that the term? 

617
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,680
Yes. 
And I think of when I was a 

618
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,760
child, how I felt really attuned
to the limits of my body in 

619
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:11,080
terms of what would hurt me. 
Like you had to fall or jump 

620
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,840
from 5 feet and six feet to know
how that feels on your bones as 

621
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,520
a six year old or 7 year old, 
right? 

622
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,480
And you start to learn, oh, I 
can make that jump. 

623
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,280
Oh, I can't make that jump. 
Oh, I know how this is going to 

624
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,560
hurt and I know I can handle 
that hurt, whereas I'm not sure 

625
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,640
if I could handle the hurt that 
would come from over here. 

626
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,520
And so being, and I know I'm 
using pain as an example there, 

627
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,160
but I think it's helpful when 
you think of risk and to 

628
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,440
recognize you have to do the 
great and hard things to 

629
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,280
realize, oh, I actually can kind
of do this. 

630
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,960
And I think the one thing that 
we miss, especially with a lack 

631
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,840
of Incarnate life, is that we 
miss seeing people. 

632
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,000
We miss out on seeing people 
fail a lot. 

633
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,640
We see the like polished version
of them instead of seeing 

634
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:06,040
someone really stink at guitar 
for hours on end, for years on 

635
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,120
end before they start sounding 
good. 

636
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,320
You know, we need that kind of 
stuff in our lives. 

637
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,040
Yeah, it's funny because Ed 
Sheeran released a video of 

638
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,840
himself when he first learned to
sing. 

639
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,320
Brian, I think you showed me 
this video. 

640
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:21,280
And it was a shocker, I think, 
to a lot of people. 

641
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,800
But even to me, you know, I was 
like, oh, oh, that that that's 

642
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,280
could not even be considered 
singing, like, really. 

643
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,440
And it's great, right? 
You want to see that. 

644
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,920
And but because, you know, so 
many people and the musicians we

645
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,000
know are on stage or on Spotify,
we don't see that that work. 

646
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,040
And like, I'm sure that was hard
for him to release, but he did. 

647
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,720
And God bless him, for it gives 
the rest of us hope. 

648
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,280
That was on a talk show and the,
and the the host was was 

649
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,600
complimenting him on his talent 
and he said, Oh no, this was 

650
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,920
this was not my voice is not 
natural talent. 

651
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,720
My voice is 10,000 hours of 
work. 

652
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:01,920
That's right. 
That's right. 

653
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,520
Yeah, yeah, I can think of how 
encouraging it was for me. 

654
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,320
There was, there were a couple 
of music festivals I went to 

655
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,120
years ago and called Escape to 
the Lake that under the radar I 

656
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,120
used to put on. 
And there was kind of the part 

657
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,680
of the concept of the festival 
was that there was no backstage.

658
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,880
Everything was backstage. 
And so you got to, I got to be 

659
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,880
around a lot of people that I 
admire, a lot of musicians I 

660
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,080
admire. 
And I got to see them trying to 

661
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,480
have breakfast with their kids 
and I got to see them, you know,

662
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,520
in all these normal situations 
where they, they weren't on 

663
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,520
stage and they weren't polished 
and they weren't perfect. 

664
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,360
And it was so helpful to me to 
see like, oh, they're real 

665
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,520
people and they're learning and 
they're growing and they're, 

666
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,040
they're shooting. 
They're aiming at good things. 

667
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,000
But they didn't just start 
there. 

668
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,640
They, they're, they're working 
through processes as well. 

669
00:43:54,680 --> 00:44:01,760
Something else I thought of was 
thinking about the magnanimity. 

670
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,600
And here goes. 
I'm going to try it. 

671
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,560
OK, I got to get it in front of 
me. 

672
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:13,560
It's pusillanimities. 
I. 

673
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,920
Think I did the worst. 
See, we're all, we're all 

674
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,440
working on it. 
We're not perfect. 

675
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,280
We're a tempting, great and 
difficult thing. 

676
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,080
We. 
Are we're we're trying to do the

677
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,440
thing that we're talking about 
right here. 

678
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,840
But you know, looking at the, 
we've talked about this, but 

679
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,000
the, you know, the, the prefix 
like paucity, you know, it's 

680
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,360
this like shrinking or of 
spirit. 

681
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,840
And then magnanimous is like the
magnifying of spirit. 

682
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,160
So I was thinking about like 
magnification of the soul. 

683
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,680
The soul is growing and becoming
stronger and more substantial. 

684
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,080
So I was thinking of the vine 
and the branches and like, if I 

685
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,320
don't have enough, where are my 
resources coming from? 

686
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,880
And, and Jesus saying that you 
can do no good thing apart from 

687
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,720
me, I don't even do any good 
thing apart from the Father. 

688
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,760
And so if I'm abiding in the 
vine that I'm being supplied 

689
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:14,880
with the thing that causes the 
fruit to swell, the soul to 

690
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:20,920
swell and to grow on that vine. 
And then the sort of result of 

691
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:26,680
that is that I want to become a 
person whose relationships, 

692
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:31,040
whose face to face encounters 
are are feeding and enlarging 

693
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,200
the souls of other people. 
You know, I want to bear, bear 

694
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:36,880
good fruit. 
It's kind of the idea of bearing

695
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,800
good fruit, but this 
magnification of soul. 

696
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:46,120
Yeah, which links to this idea 
like what does great mean by by 

697
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,000
Kingdom standards, right. 
You're we there's there's 

698
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:55,400
certain things we associate with
the word great and the in the 

699
00:45:55,400 --> 00:46:00,320
Kingdom version they might be 
fairly, fairly small. 

700
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,760
Martin's still a cobbler at the 
end of the story, yeah. 

701
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,680
Brian, you shared with us the 
the Witherspoon sermon and the 

702
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,240
second, the second point is to 
aspire after great and valuable 

703
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:13,600
possessions. 
And I think that's what you're 

704
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,840
talking about. 
Matthew is what is the valuable 

705
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,880
thing, the Pearl of great worth,
right? 

706
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,080
Yeah, and the Bible's pretty 
clear on this. 

707
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,400
It's not. 
The Bible doesn't, you know, 

708
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,720
think about all these things, in
particularly the writings of 

709
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,360
Paul, in the accounts of the 
words of Christ and the Gospels,

710
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,400
they don't say don't aspire to 
glory, don't aspire to a great 

711
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,040
inheritance. 
They say aspire to glory, aspire

712
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,480
to a great inheritance. 
It's just. 

713
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,840
With the least of these. 
Yeah, well it's it's the the 

714
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,840
inheritance is much bigger than 
the the non Christians around 

715
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,240
you are actually shooting for. 
Or they're necessarily even 

716
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:55,000
aware of. 
Yeah. 

717
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,720
Yeah, I think I was reading in 
First Thessalonians the last 

718
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:03,120
couple of days and he talks 
about like, what is our glory 

719
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,200
and our joy? 
Like you, You are the people 

720
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,040
that we've loved, the people 
that we've that we care so much 

721
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,360
about, you know? 
Yeah, that always gives me heart

722
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,360
warming feelings too. 
It's like, oh, if there was 

723
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,160
someone who encountered Jesus 
that way and was talking to me 

724
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,000
and my people or my church, 
right? 

725
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,280
And saying you guys are what 
we're striving for. 

726
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,960
You guys are the valuable ones 
that God sees and God loves. 

727
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,560
Like, what a powerful thing to 
say to somebody. 

728
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,120
I mean, that's cool. 
I'm just saying, reading Paul, 

729
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:39,080
it's amazing how much affection 
and love there is in in his 

730
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,600
tone, you know? 
Yeah, anyway, he manages to get 

731
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,840
very affectionate. 
I think about that could be 

732
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,120
another whole topic. 
But you know, he was, he was a 

733
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,480
hard ass before, you know, he 
was like, I am going to convict 

734
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,760
people. 
I don't give compassion, I give 

735
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,680
law. 
And so that, yeah, that it is 

736
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,040
when you, when you know his 
history and you see where he's 

737
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:01,720
coming from, like that's a 
pretty big shift. 

738
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,160
But where I was kind of going 
with that. 

739
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,800
I think it's a great point. 
Matthew is into the concept of 

740
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,520
Witherspoon's sort of third 
principle, which is encountering

741
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:18,120
dangers with the resolution, the
resolution being that we know 

742
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:24,280
whom we're serving and we can 
believe the promises that he 

743
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,960
offers about the rewards we 
really save and whom we are 

744
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:34,040
serving. 
The story of Martin gives me 

745
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:41,080
chills every time I hear it, but
that line is very convicting. 

746
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:42,440
Now, you do it to the least of 
these. 

747
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,800
You do it to me. 
But it's also really bracing, I 

748
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,480
think is the word I would use 
'cause if you go out and you're 

749
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,080
like, I don't know how I feel. 
Should I, should I approach this

750
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,280
person? 
Should Ioffer them this 

751
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,520
generosity? 
Should I, you know, like roll 

752
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,040
down my window and give money to
this, you know, beggar, you 

753
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:02,280
know, on the side of the 
freeway. 

754
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,280
If you have that verse in the 
back of your head and you know 

755
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,240
that Christ's confidence is 
carried within you and saying 

756
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:14,880
you are serving me when you were
serving these people, that gives

757
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,320
you all the freedom in the 
world. 

758
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,360
You have that resolution. 
You're encountering these 

759
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,640
situations and you know exactly 
what Christ says about them. 

760
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,400
You don't have to second guess 
yourself. 

761
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,520
You know what Christ would do in
that moment and in being who He 

762
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,040
would be to these people. 
You are doing to Him what He 

763
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:35,880
would do to you, doing to others
as you do to yourself. 

764
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:38,840
Anyway, I think that's really, 
really powerful. 

765
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,240
And that's just a verse that's 
been really coming back to me 

766
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:44,880
over and over again. 
So I really liked that, that 

767
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:50,000
idea of encountering this kind 
of situation in a danger, 

768
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,280
knowing that there's a 
resolution you can count on, 

769
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,920
even if the resolution, the 
first resolution is not a nice 

770
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,760
one. 
Like you're nice to someone and 

771
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,880
then they steal all your stuff. 
That's not so nice. 

772
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,040
But you also know that you just 
loved Christ. 

773
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,520
Yeah, well, and the, I'm 
noticing a pattern here that the

774
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,240
the principles feel like they're
getting harder as we go to to 

775
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,680
actually execute attempt to 
great and difficult things. 

776
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:22,000
OK, maybe that's hard to start, 
but you can imagine yourself 

777
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,440
sitting down with a blank piece 
of paper and to do listing your 

778
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:29,240
way and to getting started. 
And so, so you have, you know, 

779
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:32,240
you have that question perhaps 
of, you know, what Kingdom work 

780
00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:34,320
are you avoiding because it 
doesn't feel great enough or 

781
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,000
because it feels too great. 
Then you have principle #2 

782
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,280
aspire after great possessions. 
OK, same, same idea. 

783
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,920
Well, you can ask these 
questions of, you know what, 

784
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,960
what would I stop holding back 
if I knew I would inherit the 

785
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,880
Kingdom? 
Or would I be fearless in 

786
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,480
pursuit of if I didn't mistake 
fear for humility? 

787
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,160
But then, yeah, you get to, it's
hard enough there. 

788
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,520
But then you get to principle 3,
encountering dangers with 

789
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,840
resolution. 
And you're now you're asking 

790
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,000
yourself, you know, what battles
am I shrinking from fighting 

791
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,880
because I think I will lose 
something or because I think I'm

792
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,640
being humble or I'm afraid of 
what people will think? 

793
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,120
Yeah. 
And then it only gets harder 

794
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,040
from there because then you get 
principle #4 struggle with 

795
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,160
perseverance. 
Well, to me, the way that you 

796
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:32,960
can struggle with to persevere 
is when you, like Christina was 

797
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,920
saying, you are braced and you 
have this resolution like you 

798
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:43,760
need #3 before you get to #4. 
And one way that I really love 

799
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,000
to think about doing something 
despite the risk of getting it 

800
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,600
wrong is the concept. 
It's the quote from GK 

801
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,280
Chesterton in your Orthodoxy 
where he's talking about 

802
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,200
children's desire and vitality 
to do it again, do it again. 

803
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,560
And he says it's possible that 
God says every morning do it 

804
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,880
again to the sun. 
And what what changes if we see 

805
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,840
God responding to us like that, 
even when we get it wrong in 

806
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:15,360
this in this category, in this 
context, there's this beautiful 

807
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,440
poem that's I guess anonymous, 
but it's called a New Leaf. 

808
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,120
And it's all about, it's about 
this boy who with a quivering 

809
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,600
lip, asks his teacher for a new 
sheet of paper because he 

810
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,800
spoiled this one. 
And this, the last stanza of the

811
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:36,280
poem says, I went to the throne 
with a trembling heart. 

812
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,120
The day was done. 
Have you a new day for me, dear 

813
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,160
master, I've spoiled this one. 
He took my day all soiled and 

814
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,560
blotted and gave me a new one 
all unspotted. 

815
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,880
And into my tired heart he 
cried. 

816
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,680
Do better now, my child. 
And it's that. 

817
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,480
Do it again. 
Enjoy not do better next time, 

818
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:01,920
but I think you need in order to
go through the struggle and the 

819
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:06,360
difficulty with perseverance. 
Yeah. 

820
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,600
And and again, that's something 
you can make a habit of going, 

821
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,600
going up with the blotted piece 
of paper and saying I need a new

822
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:15,720
one. 
I can, you can. 

823
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:20,240
You can build a habit of showing
up in the small things. 

824
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,200
Yeah, I think too. 
The, the thing I mean I've 

825
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,720
noticed over my lifetime is the 
showing up for the small things 

826
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:29,360
that you really are just like, 
but why? 

827
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,440
And every week you think maybe 
I'll quit or maybe this is the 

828
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,240
last time I'll do this or this 
is really tiring or this is 

829
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:37,000
really taking too much of my 
time and energy. 

830
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,520
Sometimes it's, it's when you 
push past that point, Not 

831
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:42,840
always. 
Sometimes you really do need to 

832
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,160
give a certain thing up. 
But sometimes when you push past

833
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,360
that point, it's the place where
the Lord says, yes, but did you 

834
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,240
notice? 
And someone comes up and says 

835
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:58,320
something or there is a reward 
that someone tells, I guess 

836
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,360
should be I, I should just be 
more specific, But just say that

837
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,440
you've been, you know, serving a
youth group, right? 

838
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:06,240
And it takes so much of your 
time. 

839
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:11,280
But one of the kids comes up and
says, you know, Missus Brown or,

840
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:15,720
you know, Mr. Clark, when you 
were talking about this couple 

841
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,760
months ago, it saved my life. 
And you know, and all of a 

842
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,280
sudden you're like, OK, all of 
that was worth it. 

843
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,720
And you start to see like the 
bearing, like the struggling 

844
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:26,920
with perseverance, right? 
It's the habits that you were 

845
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,120
talking about and the habit of 
showing up. 

846
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,480
Sometimes when you push past 
that, the person, you know your 

847
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,560
perseverance. 
It's it's where God says yes. 

848
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,400
But let me show you what your 
perseverance has done for the 

849
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,680
Kingdom. 
That generosity of giving of 

850
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,120
yourself when you definitely did
not want to. 

851
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:51,160
Guilty as charged. 
All right, we got to squeeze in 

852
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,080
our last principle. 
This is an easy one. 

853
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:57,600
Bare sufferings with fortitude. 
No problem. 

854
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,320
He's got that one covered. 
No, just kidding. 

855
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:03,880
We've all got that bastard 
moving on. 

856
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,480
No, no, not at all. 
What I love about this pattern, 

857
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,480
though, this is this question of
how do I train myself? 

858
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,320
Even if you set aside the word 
magnanimity and you just think 

859
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:17,800
about the broader word 
generosity. 

860
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,680
How do I train myself in 
generosity? 

861
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,680
Making a habit of attempting 
great and difficult things, 

862
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,880
aspiring after real glory, great
possessions, encountering 

863
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,960
dangers with resolution, 
building in yourself this image 

864
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:36,600
of not I am a insert negative 
thing, but I am someone who 

865
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,600
responds to dangers with 
courage. 

866
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,560
I'm someone who responds to 
struggles with perseverance. 

867
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,800
You can, you can motivational 
speaker your way to that if you 

868
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,960
want, but it's hard. 
What's much easier is showing up

869
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,480
again and again and again, and 
then you get to bearing 

870
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,760
sufferings with fortitude and 
wait a second. 

871
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,440
I don't want to make a habit of 
sufferings. 

872
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:05,400
Wait, what? 
There I was just listening to 

873
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:09,600
this interview with someone from
the Voice of the Martyrs and he 

874
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:14,080
put it, I'm paraphrasing him, 
but he put it something to the 

875
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:18,880
effect of this, this woman who 
went to prison for going to, you

876
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,240
know, being persecuted and going
to prison because she was 

877
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:24,440
sharing Christ with people. 
She said it was a wonderful 

878
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,480
time. 
And and you know, he talks about

879
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,000
like wanted to make sure the 
translator understood the 

880
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,560
question and that she understood
and she was answering 

881
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,920
appropriately and she said, no, 
it was wonderful. 

882
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,320
The Lord was with me and the way
that he kind of put it was this.

883
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:45,480
This woman, she was willing to 
go where the Lord was going to 

884
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,520
use her and she said if that's 
prison, then I will go there 

885
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,840
with you. 
And that's just such a mind 

886
00:56:53,840 --> 00:57:00,840
blowing example for someone as 
an Eucilinomous. 

887
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,000
But to be patient and trust that
God is at work, even in 

888
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:16,360
limitation and pain is to embody
the courage she had and that 

889
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,920
Joseph of, you know, has in the 
Genesis story that there's 

890
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:25,760
nothing so bad that can thwart 
the living God and his plans, 

891
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,920
you know, and and yeah, I, I 
think about that woman a lot and

892
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,800
how she responded since hearing 
that that interview. 

893
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,120
That's really interesting. 
Well, we are winding down for 

894
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,960
the day. 
Christina, Matthew, any final 

895
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:42,320
thoughts? 
I know we kind of buzzed through

896
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,000
the last three relatively 
quickly. 

897
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,040
One of the the one thing I 
thought it was, I remember 

898
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,000
somebody asking the question 
kind of this connects to what 

899
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,680
you just said, Sarah, what did 
the early Christians believe 

900
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:59,600
that that gave them the ability 
to be martyred with joy? 

901
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,640
And the guy said, no, that's the
wrong question. 

902
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,680
Not not what did they believe, 
but who did they love? 

903
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,160
Said who did they love is what 
gave them that mag, that 

904
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,000
hugeness of soul, that 
magnanimity. 

905
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:19,400
And so I think I think kind of 
for me, it all comes back down 

906
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:26,200
to this has been a big theme in 
my life, like who who has faced 

907
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,160
me? 
In what ways have I been loved 

908
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:38,480
by a soul so huge by a by a a 
heart so massive that that it 

909
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:42,480
has begun to actually change the
way I think and feel about what 

910
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,760
it's like to be in the world and
to be with other people. 

911
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:50,400
And by this magnanimous God. 
Do you know this God who has 

912
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,240
loved me so deeply? 
So I think it all comes back to 

913
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,280
that We're loving as we've been 
loved. 

914
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:00,120
And I was reading Exodus this 
morning and he talks about, you 

915
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,200
know, remember what he's talking
about in Deuteronomy, excuse me,

916
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,000
not Exodus, Deuteronomy. 
And he's saying, do these things

917
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:12,480
forgive debts at the in those 
years come for debt forgiveness.

918
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:18,120
And so don't don't forget that 
you were you were slaves and I 

919
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,160
got you out of all that trouble.
So you can afford to be good to 

920
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:27,400
each other, you know. 
And so that's kind of my last 

921
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:28,920
thought. 
That's beautiful. 

922
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,920
I guess I would just end with 
like a note of encouragement to 

923
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,720
our listeners, which you know, 
if you if this is just sounding 

924
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,240
like a lot and a challenge, 
you're not alone. 

925
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:43,840
So that's all of us here. 
We're talking about it, but we 

926
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,080
all feel it. 
But but I as far as 

927
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,680
encouragement, the thing that 
can help me sometimes is 

928
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:59,160
remembering that even just one 
single soul gathered up into 

929
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:04,040
Christ's arms because of 
something you did is worth 

930
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:08,000
everything. 
And if we can think about our 

931
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,040
situation and our circumstances 
and how we encounter people and 

932
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,400
the acts of generosity and the 
fortitude and all these habits 

933
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:18,600
that we build, it can sound 
really hard to accomplish. 

934
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,520
It can sound really like, where 
do I start? 

935
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:25,240
And if you just think of that 
one soul, who is that one soul 

936
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,120
that Christ might be asking me 
to serve? 

937
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:31,080
And it's worth it. 
You think like one soul at a 

938
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,400
time, one person at a time. 
And that might make it actually 

939
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,000
a lot easier. 
That's what I found anyway. 

940
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,960
Christina I I love that and I 
have this poem I actually want 

941
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,560
us to read, which I think goes 
beautifully with your 

942
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:49,200
encouragement, though it doesn't
make us look so good. 

943
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:54,560
The first person, a viewpoint 
that the poem is in, the whole 

944
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:58,120
point of generosity isn't to go 
and say, hey, look, look how 

945
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:00,160
wonderful I am. 
I can do this. 

946
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:03,640
In fact, if we look at Martin 
there, we could kind of 

947
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,200
criticize everything he did that
it wasn't enough. 

948
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:11,080
He did very, very little and he 
gave out of the abundance of his

949
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,600
heart. 
And then this poem, the first 

950
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,000
person viewpoint is not giving 
abundantly. 

951
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,520
He's holding back. 
And yet in both circumstances, 

952
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,600
the other felt loved because 
ultimately it was Christ who was

953
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,280
loving the least of these 
through both of them. 

954
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:30,520
Matthew, do you mind reading it 
for us? 

955
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,400
You just have such a wonderful 
voice and. 

956
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,000
No, I'd love to. 
So this is called Columbia MO 

957
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:43,480
slash Jerusalem by Philip Igen. 
Winter has settled in for its 

958
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,240
long occupation. 
Each morning, what grass 

959
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,200
survives offers the dull glisten
of shaded frost. 

960
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:56,200
It will be like this until 
April, sunlight rationed to our 

961
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:00,680
latitude and clouded portions. 
We've all responded in kind, 

962
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,960
trundling from garages and 
basements, cartoons of coats and

963
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:08,040
sweaters. 
As I leave the house for work, 

964
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:11,680
the wind chime complaints 
against the stucco, having 

965
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,680
learned from the dog which notes
best convey the misery of being 

966
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:21,120
left outside. 
Later, I head to a local deli 

967
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:27,040
for soup and see Jesus, his hair
whipping around his face as he 

968
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,560
walks stiffly across the parking
lot. 

969
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:35,160
Plastic bags and paper plates 
scuff past him, getting caught 

970
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:41,100
in bushes and shopping carts. 
Jesus is wearing jeans and AT 

971
01:02:41,100 --> 01:02:44,320
shirt advertising a bowling 
alley, long derelict. 

972
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:49,280
He sees me approaching my car 
and takes small quick steps to 

973
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,800
catch me, lest I get in and 
drive off before he can accost 

974
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,000
me. 
Hey man, I hate to bother you, 

975
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,600
but do you think you have an old
shirt or anything to help with 

976
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,000
the cold? 
Maybe next year I'll make it to 

977
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:06,120
Cali, right? 
He grins at his attempt to be 

978
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,440
disarming and glances at my 
coffee cup. 

979
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,400
It's steam vanishing like a 
contrail. 

980
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,720
Hold on, let me check. 
I say, though I know the 

981
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,000
contents of my trunk perfectly 
well. 

982
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,640
I have one of my favorite old 
Carhartt jackets and a purple 

983
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:27,880
long sleeve flannel shirt. 
Demoted to rag status after a 

984
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,840
knee injury Changed my exercise 
habits but not my diet. 

985
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,720
Recently washed, it's still 
stained with gashes of grease 

986
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:41,000
and oil from periodic engine 
work, but it's still in one 

987
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,320
piece. 
He stays near the front of the 

988
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,280
car and I walk around and open 
the trunk, where I pretend to 

989
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,360
rummage and push the car heart 
under a blanket before I pull 

990
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,640
out the shirt and close my 
trunk. 

991
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,640
Sorry man, this is all I have. 
Jesus beams. 

992
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:03,600
He reaches out slowly and taking
it by the shoulder seams, holds 

993
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,440
it up briefly. 
No ironing will ever remove some

994
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,920
of the creases. 
Jesus laughs and immediately 

995
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:14,720
puts it on his blue fingers, 
struggling with the buttons. 

996
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:17,320
Thanks so much, man, God bless 
you. 

997
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:19,680
You too, I say. 
Have a great day. 

998
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,400
I pause, grab my coffee, and 
drive away. 

999
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,960
A week later, on the other side 
of town, I see Jesus pushing a 

1000
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,920
shopping cart up the sidewalk. 
Oh God, he's wearing it. 

1001
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,560
He sees my car and instantly 
recognizes me. 

1002
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:43,800
I'm wearing my old car heart. 
He waves wildly and I weakly 

1003
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:48,680
wave back with exaggeration. 
He points to a shirt and then 

1004
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,960
does a little shimmy. 
Even through the glass I hear 

1005
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,240
Jesus yell. 
Thanks again, man. 

1006
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,360
The light turns green and I wave
again with a twitch of the mouth

1007
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,600
that might have been a smile in 
different circumstances before 

1008
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:06,480
driving away any shimmies once 
more showing off for anyone 

1009
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:16,200
looking his coat of many colors.
I love that touch at the end. 

1010
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:20,200
Wow, his coat of many colors. 
Yeah. 

1011
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:27,520
Wow. 
Well, on that note, I know this 

1012
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:30,840
is a hard one. 
I know we can all find ourselves

1013
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:35,680
in seasons where I feel like 
maybe, maybe this is a season 

1014
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,200
where it's OK for me to be fed a
little more than feeding. 

1015
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:46,880
And all of that is true. 
However, in general, Witherspoon

1016
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,920
was very clear. 
Magnanimity is something that 

1017
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,200
not only are we all called to, 
but through the grace of God we 

1018
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:59,960
are all capable of, We can be 
made by God into more and more 

1019
01:05:59,960 --> 01:06:05,120
magnanimous people. 
Just as with joviality, we can 

1020
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:12,320
learn to be more and more 
abundant distributors of divine 

1021
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:20,920
joy, with magnanimity we can 
learn to be more and more divine

1022
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:26,680
distributors of or distributors 
of divine abundance. 

1023
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:33,040
So as we head out, I'll just 
leave you listeners with these 

1024
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,440
questions. 
Where is God inviting you to 

1025
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:41,480
attempt something great? 
What divine abundance are you 

1026
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,080
holding back because you think 
you don't deserve to carry it? 

1027
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:51,760
And where can you build the 
habit of showing up to be face 

1028
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,480
to face? 
And regardless of how many times

1029
01:06:55,560 --> 01:07:02,560
you miss, you make mistakes, I I
pray that you hear God's kind 

1030
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,880
voice saying do it again. 
Try again. 

1031
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:10,240
Yeah, becoming a great soul that
we might become great hearts and

1032
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:14,200
great souls for good. 
Let's go do it. 

1033
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,320
The Imagination Redeemed podcast
is a production of the Anselm 

1034
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:23,520
Society. 
It's easy to see this world as 

1035
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,080
disenchanted and to give up hope
that there's more. 

1036
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,480
But you were made to see the 
world with the eyes of heaven 

1037
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,880
and to live a bountiful life 
that participates in the life of

1038
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:36,880
God like in the great stories. 
To help make this show possible,

1039
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:42,440
go to anselmsociety.org/podcast 
25 and make a donation. 

1040
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:46,200
The Anselm Society is a place 
where you can come in and 

1041
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:50,880
experience that beauty, joyful 
celebration, and ancient wisdom 

1042
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:55,040
and go out renewed, bringing 
that life to your vocation, 

1043
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:58,880
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Learn more at anselmsociety.org 

1044
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:01,840
and join us next time as we 
pursue a renaissance of the 

1045
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,760
Christian imagination together. 
Yeah.