1 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:08,720 A young girl found herself wandering through a forest at 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,880 night. She could hear a Nightingale 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:14,400 singing, and as her eyes grew accustomed to the moonlight, she 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,640 could see the trees around her more distinctly. 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,200 She could see silver birches, oaks, beaches. 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,920 She found herself longing to know what the trees were 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,480 thinking, to hear them talk. She imagined the birch's soft, 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,560 showery voice and penchant for dancing, the oaks wizened but 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,440 Hardy appearance, the beaches smooth and stately elegance. 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:42,080 Oh, trees, trees, trees, whispered Lucy Wake, don't you 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,520 remember it? Don't you Remember Me? 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,160 The trees rustled as if they could hear her, but nothing else 13 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,360 happened, and Lucy went to sleep that night, disappointed. 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,600 But a few nights later, she woke out of the deepest sleep you 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,520 could imagine, and heard a voice calling her back into the woods. 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,400 She sat up, not with fear, but with excitement. 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,360 The trees were moving, not waving. 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,520 Walking. She walked towards them, her 19 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,400 heart beating wildly. She could almost hear a tune in 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,960 the sounds that they were making, and she could catch 21 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:19,320 glimpses in which they looked a little less like trees and a 22 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:23,000 little more like strangely branchy and leafy people. 23 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:28,120 She danced fearlessly among them until she saw in the center the 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,360 reason for it all, the great lion Aslan. 25 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,320 Over the years, I've noticed these scenes from CS Lewis's 26 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:41,200 Prince Caspian, which most of you will be familiar with, have 27 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,800 a strange and pretty universal effect on people. 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,160 Prince Caspian is set in a disenchanted Narnia, and when 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,520 Aslan arrives, trees and rivers and all sorts of things are 30 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,000 awakened. And when we reach these scenes 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,480 with Lucy, we almost read them in a hush. 32 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,120 It's as if we know that even for our world, there's something 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,840 true about them. But what exactly is it? 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,240 Christianity doesn't teach pantheism, where we worship the 35 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,920 creation or where we are simply an equal part of the creation, 36 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,760 but neither does it teach Gnosticism, where nothing 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,600 physical matters and the goal is to escape physicality. 38 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,640 Yet in our modern age, Christians have been guilty of 39 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:27,960 both of these extremes, and most of us don't really know what to 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:34,960 do with stuff in between those extremes, whether it's a tree or 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,480 a spoon or a path or a patch of sky. 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,960 How close is Lucy's perspective to what ours should be? 43 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,640 Do dryads and naiads and river gods only exist in Narnia? 44 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,720 What is the relationship between objects and the supernatural 45 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,160 realm? What are we to do with trees? 46 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,680 In this episode we will seek to reclaim a Christian vision for a 47 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,800 re enchanted creation. Not just the big 30,000 foot 48 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,360 view, but what to do with everyday things. 49 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,320 Welcome to the Imagination Redeemed podcast where we follow 50 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,360 the great stories further up and further in in pursuit of the 51 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:22,960 life of Christ. Welcome to Imagination Redeemed 52 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:24,440 everyone. I'm Brian Brown. 53 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,960 I'm joined by Amy Beckley and Sarah Howell today and we have 54 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,600 been just prior to hitting, recording, debating and debating 55 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,800 and debating just how exactly to do justice to this topic. 56 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,520 Because I've LED us in with a rather big claim that we want to 57 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,360 reclaim a Christian vision for a re enchanted creation. 58 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,680 That is in fact part of why the Ansem Society exists. 59 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,800 But there are a lot of places we could go with that. 60 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,720 And ultimately, we don't want to simply have a conversation about 61 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:07,120 ideas, but we want to equip you and equip each other to be more 62 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:13,520 fully present in the world that God has made because this is the 63 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,560 only place that He's given us in which to meet Him. 64 00:04:17,399 --> 00:04:21,120 And therefore this place cannot be irrelevant to that encounter. 65 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:28,120 Before we get into the conversation, I should say out 66 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,880 loud a little housekeeping, which is that if you go to 67 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,040 andsoundsociety.org right now, you will see we have just 68 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,720 announced our fall event. It is not CS Lewis themed, but 69 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,760 it is JRR Tolkien themed. September 19th and 20th of this 70 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,880 year, 2025, we will be gathering in Colorado Springs for a 71 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,760 weekend of Middle Earth festivity. 72 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,800 We're calling it a long expected feast because this is our first 73 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:03,160 weekend event since 2022, so if you would love to come and sing 74 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,400 and tell stories and hear stories told and song sung, 75 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,320 probably do some Middle Earth trivia. 76 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,000 There will be a retreat component so that we can be 77 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,720 encouraged and renewed. And we will conclude with a pub 78 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:25,240 night of all the things that we are always putting on our social 79 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,360 media channels because we enjoy doing them so much. 80 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,360 That is up on our website. The details are there. 81 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,320 Tickets are going to go on sale on July 31st, but you can get on 82 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,760 a wait list in the meantime. So go check that out after this 83 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,000 episode. Or better yet, pause and pull it 84 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,080 up right now before you forget because tickets are going to go 85 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,520 extremely quickly for that and space is very limited. 86 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,560 OK ladies, first of all, thank you for being willing to wade 87 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:57,840 into this tricky topic with me and Sarah. 88 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:01,360 Thank you in particular for putting in a lot of work on the 89 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,680 front end so that we could hopefully do it justice. 90 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,480 I think I the easiest place for us to start. 91 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,560 I think a lot of us have wrestled with this question of 92 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,760 how to have a category for things that are not God and yet 93 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,720 still matter. We are afraid of idolatry. 94 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,920 We're afraid of, particularly in Protestantism. 95 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,920 There there's this sort of healthy suspicion of idolatry 96 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,280 that can easily fall, fall backwards into an unhealthy 97 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,880 almost like the almost like the dwarves in the last Battle being 98 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,040 so afraid of being taken in that they can't see the magic when 99 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:47,440 it's right in front of them. And it's great to to not want to 100 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,120 assign more value to something than it actually has. 101 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,600 But it's really easy to just sort of stop there and end up 102 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,440 feeling unequipped. I've lived, for example, most of 103 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:03,600 my life in suburban contexts. Lots of man made things right, 104 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,520 lots of concrete and asphalt and maybe some nature band aids here 105 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,920 and there, but probably couldn't even have told you what most of 106 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,000 those trees and bushes were. I certainly couldn't say that in 107 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,240 any meaningful sense. I was a steward of them, a 108 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,800 master of them. So it's pretty easy for us to 109 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,960 feel alienated from the creation, maybe at that 110 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,920 theological level, maybe at that just practical level. 111 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,040 But if this is the place that God has given us to meet him, 112 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,240 we've got to find a better answer than that. 113 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,600 And the reason that we started with this Prince Caspian story 114 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,600 is because in this fictional fantasy world context, that's 115 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,320 kind of what happened. She ultimately finds Aslan, but 116 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,960 she does it through these waking trees. 117 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,320 Not not by walking away from the waking trees going, no, you are 118 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,040 not Aslan and finding anywhere else, but actually through what 119 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,200 he has made and what he is waking up. 120 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,360 So just low hanging fruit way to start the conversation. 121 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,800 I'd love to hear any thoughts that you have on observations 122 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:14,560 you made about this story or about this larger challenge, how 123 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,080 this challenge has manifested for you. 124 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,080 My challenge fundamentally starts with a improper 125 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,520 understanding of creation. The fancy term, the doctrine of 126 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,200 creation states that everything is good. 127 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,799 The Bible begins with God creating out of nothing and 128 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:41,200 saying that it is good and it it's, it's a little easy to 129 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,600 maybe just a sense to that sentence. 130 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,560 Yes, everything is good, but it's a different thing to 131 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,640 recognize and allow for that to change the way that you look at 132 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,640 the world. I often don't think of this 133 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:02,800 world as my father's world. I think I often start my 134 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,720 understanding of the world at the fall and that and that 135 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,960 everything is decaying and decrepit. 136 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,360 That's actually the way that I interact with the world more 137 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,600 often than not, because that's how I interact with perhaps 138 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:21,000 myself and other people. And while there is obviously 139 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,200 truth in the fact that the next part of the biblical story is 140 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,800 the fall, we can't forget about who is the father of this world. 141 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:30,320 Yeah. Yeah. 142 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,280 So that's that's where my challenge begins. 143 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,080 Yeah, it's it's easy to functionally live that way and 144 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:42,200 forget that God's response to Adam and Eve's sin was not OK. 145 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:42,960 Sir. Brent, you win. 146 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,680 I'll come back later. I think I'm often Co opted into 147 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:51,000 thinking that the world is runs off of the survival of the 148 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:56,400 fittest scientific, you know, reality wherein where I I think 149 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,440 it might actually be more true that because the world is good, 150 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:09,960 I'll I'll be damaged. It is primarily working off of 151 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:15,920 more than just survival. And so I, I think I often see 152 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,440 nature against man, man versus nature, rather than seeing 153 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:26,120 nature being something that could actually work with or care 154 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,440 about man. Yeah, Amy, what about you? 155 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:36,560 I mean, you've, I feel like there were even places in your 156 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:43,120 book that talked about different chapters of ways that created 157 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,600 order had or lack thereof in a given context that either 158 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,000 alienated you or kind of pulled you in. 159 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:54,640 What's been your your experience with either this line of 160 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,880 thinking or or a different one as far as how to how to relate 161 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,360 to the creation? Yeah, well, I think when I was 162 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,280 talking about it in my book, it had a lot to do with my fraught 163 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,080 history, with my perception of beauty. 164 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:17,720 And so I came of age, I guess, as a Christian, in a time when a 165 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:23,040 lot of things were considered luxuries, I guess I would say, 166 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,560 when it came to beauty. And so beauty was a superfluous 167 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:30,080 thing, and it wasn't something that was inherent or built into 168 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,080 creation or meant really to enrich or deepen your 169 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,800 understanding of God. I mean, I've told the story I 170 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,800 think a few Times Now of how as a Bible study leader in my 171 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,760 college fellowship, we decided to go for a no frills approach 172 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,280 to our Bible study. So no snacks, no, no chatty time 173 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,400 beforehand. We were going to get straight 174 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,240 into Scripture and dwell there and stay there. 175 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,000 And that was, I think maybe it was it was necessary for me at 176 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,640 that stage. I think it did help us to value 177 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,280 the word of God. But that kind of symbolizes, I 178 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:12,120 think what my view of beauty was like at the time. 179 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:18,440 And it, and then it was after a, a mental breakdown in 2016 that 180 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,600 I think the way that I started to notice the presence of God or 181 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,320 to become sensible to the presence of God in my everyday 182 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,760 again was to notice him through creation, mostly through nature. 183 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,320 And, and so it's interesting to me thinking about your question 184 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,320 now, because I'm about to answer this as a person who has been in 185 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,680 the Anslem society for close to 10 years now, whose outlook on 186 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:50,080 beauty and nature and creation have been wildly upended, I 187 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,920 guess. And I would say my challenge now 188 00:12:53,920 --> 00:13:04,960 in regarding creation would be trying to wrap my mind around 189 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:10,320 the nature of creation in all its brokenness and beauty so 190 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,160 that we're aware that there was a fall. 191 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,080 I am now aware that God speaks the creation and through beauty 192 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,400 in ways that if we ignore them, we ignore them to the peril of 193 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,120 our souls. Because it's like you're 194 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,840 shutting off an Ave. of communication that is constantly 195 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,400 being given to you of who he is, that you matter, that he is the 196 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,280 God of the cosmos and galaxies and but he's also the God of 197 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,320 anthills. And so how much do you matter in 198 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,880 all of this? Those are all good things that 199 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,560 need to be driven home to our hearts. 200 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:47,720 But yes, I think I'm at a place where I'm trying now to do my 201 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,880 best to notice what I can in creation, but I'm still living 202 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,200 in a world where there are wildfires and flash floods and 203 00:13:55,200 --> 00:14:00,520 diseases and I don't know, resistance to antibiotics and 204 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,720 all of that. And so it does not do to just 205 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,960 swallow nature wholesale and say that all of it is good now and 206 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,000 that all we need to do is to pay attention to it. 207 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,680 How do we navigate our way in the world? 208 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:17,720 How? What are we supposed to be 209 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,520 paying attention to as we navigate our way through a world 210 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,440 that is full of things to notice? 211 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:29,280 I guess is where I am. Yeah, you and I were talking the 212 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,440 other day and I I mentioned this book Beauty of everyday things 213 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,000 that I've been reading by Soet. So Yanagi, who as far as I know 214 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,960 is not a Christian and, and yeah, he kind of frames it that 215 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:45,320 last way that we've, we've gotten so far from the way that 216 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,480 the rest of nature operates, that we've, we've lost the 217 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:54,560 ability to listen to nature and, and, and therefore could sort of 218 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,800 to be, to take our rightful place as part of nature. 219 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,400 And as a Christian, I'm, I'm first of all noticing a bunch of 220 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,920 very, very useful observations in, in his writing, but I'm also 221 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,720 noticing limitations. And that's one of them. 222 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,200 That's not the whole story. That's not the whole story of 223 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,680 the creation, as you just alluded to. 224 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,640 And it's not the whole story of our place in the creation as as 225 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,760 the imago Dei. We're not just here to be either 226 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,440 like parasites on the one hand or nothing on the other. 227 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,760 I want to go back to something you said just before that 228 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:30,880 though, which was you talked about how turning away from the 229 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,720 other things, the other physical things that God has made being 230 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,400 akin to turning off an Ave. of communication that he has with 231 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,520 us. I would love to hear more about 232 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,800 that. Yeah, that's coming from a 233 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:51,880 specific season in my life when I so I have anxiety disorder 234 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:57,680 that at that particular time manifested itself as an almost 235 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,520 armored, deafened sense to the presence of God. 236 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:09,440 And not because I wanted it to be, but because I think in my 237 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,120 darker hours, the thing that I tend to struggle with is 238 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:20,600 mortality and the fact and the situation of living on an earth 239 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,880 where nature is wild, diseases run rampant, children can get 240 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,080 into accidents at any time, and you don't know what will happen. 241 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,000 And on top of that, we're living in a world now where the 242 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,880 articles that we read, the stories that we're exposed to 243 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,360 seem very intentionally to be the kind of stories that are 244 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,600 that say things like, if she hadn't caught this detail in 245 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,000 time, here are the statistics telling you how likely you are 246 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,000 to survive to the next decade of your life. 247 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,120 These are the things that you need to do well. 248 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,280 But we don't really know what the scientific causes are for 249 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:52,720 this. And so we're all doing the best 250 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,720 that we can. And so it, a lot of times it 251 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,920 just feels like either a game of Russian roulette or, or you 252 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:03,280 know, I guess you could go back to ancient conceptions of fate 253 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:08,119 and the wheel. At the time that I felt most 254 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,280 cloistered in my mind, the things that started to 255 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,200 breakthrough were the things that I could see with my own 256 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,280 eyes. And very often that was right 257 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,240 out the window that I'm sitting beside here. 258 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,520 We have a small garden and it was things like, well, the sun 259 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,240 setting seems like a very cliche thing to say, but it might have 260 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,040 been the way that the sunsets, you know, differently every day. 261 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,880 And the fact that a baby Robin can come through the yard and, 262 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,520 and be so clumsy fluttering around your yard. 263 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,160 But you you get to watch it being fed by its mother. 264 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,560 And the way that a magpie and a squirrel can set up a squabbling 265 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,720 match on the fence. There were just little things 266 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,160 here and there that I started noticing almost in spite of 267 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,040 myself. And at some point it became a 268 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,920 thought progression for me to think that if God was sovereign 269 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,000 over everything. And here I am looking at this 270 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,200 thing that reminds me that, I guess to quote Sam Weiskampshi, 271 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,440 that there is some good in the world, that there's some beauty 272 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,720 to be noticed. How is that not a personal note 273 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:16,520 of communication from that sovereign God to me even in that 274 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,320 moment? And so I guess that's something 275 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,680 that I've grown more and more convinced of over the years, but 276 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:22,840 that was basically how that went. 277 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,320 Yeah, Thank you. That's really that's 278 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,480 illuminating. Oh, gosh, You just talked about 279 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,160 sunset and I said it was illuminating. 280 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:36,240 OK All right then. Yeah. 281 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:41,560 Well, probably one thing that is useful to introduce into this 282 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:49,120 conversation early is the the framework that that Christians 283 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:53,680 have historically used for understanding the relationship 284 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:59,760 of what God has made, even in its sickened state. 285 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,400 Health is often the the metaphor that's used in in early church 286 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,320 theology to talk about the effects of sin. 287 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,960 If you're sick, that doesn't mean you cease to be human. 288 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,400 It doesn't mean you die. It means you are sick. 289 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,840 That is a you are a fundamentally healthy creature 290 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:23,000 who has an illness. And the, the, the three sort of 291 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,280 layers to this are that the way that we've historically framed 292 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:32,040 it or kind of translated it and Psalmist that the creation is 293 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,880 good, was made good. And we can add the fall 294 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,360 asterisk, but that's a sickening thing, not a destroying thing. 295 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,520 It is good. It is symbolic and it is 296 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,080 Sacramento or another way of saying those same three things. 297 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:52,200 Creation is from God. So yeah, it's a, it's quite a 298 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,400 thing to, to take this thing that is from God and reject it. 299 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,200 It is of God. That's what the symbolic part 300 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,400 means, that the the the creation bears its creator's 301 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,040 fingerprints. And that's worth attending 302 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,520 podcast series by itself, but we can get into it at least a 303 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,840 little bit. And then it's Sacramento, which 304 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:19,440 is to say it is it is for God. It is all here for for worship 305 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,040 and as a place in which we can meet God. 306 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,760 Understanding that, one of the things that strikes me about the 307 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:33,640 kinds of examples you used, Amy, is that the, the problem that 308 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,160 you read in, in some of those articles you mentioned always 309 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,680 kind of zeroes in on, you know, that that newest thing you're 310 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,000 supposed to be afraid of, many of which are very legitimate to 311 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,000 be afraid of. And and then on the flip side, 312 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,200 you get the other articles, which are here's the here's the 313 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,960 silver bullet. Here's the magic potion. 314 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,400 Here's just here's the one thing that is, is the answer to that 315 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,360 other thing this workout routine or this diet or whatever and 316 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,400 almost like a monotheistic sort of a thing. 317 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,760 It's, it's always just this one thing. 318 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,200 And as Christians, Christianity, Christianity is much more 319 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:13,400 comfortable with things like paradox and layers and levels of 320 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,280 meaning. I have a book of the the sermons 321 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,920 of Saint Ambrose, and one of the things that has struck me in 322 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,680 reading his sermons is anytime he's talking about historical 323 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,040 events in Scripture, he takes as a given two things. 324 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,440 One, that they really literally happened and that they mean 325 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:39,400 something else, that they actually participate in a larger 326 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,800 story. So the story of Joseph and the, 327 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,240 the son being rejected, but then being the means of salvation of 328 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,920 his people is its own story that really happened. 329 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,880 And it is a foreshadowing of what's going to happen in the 330 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:05,920 Gospels. And as you read through a lot of 331 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,400 the, the early church writers, a lot of the Mystics, a lot of the 332 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,240 reformers, you can kind of pick a, a, a, an intellectual stream 333 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:17,240 and you will find this in all of them. 334 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,680 If as long as you're not reading something too terribly recent, 335 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:26,000 that creation is worth paying attention to, to his for its own 336 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,000 sake. It is good. 337 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:33,160 It is symbolic and participates in that larger reality. 338 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:37,800 The word symbolic means two things brought together and then 339 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,760 Sacramento. All of this is here for us to 340 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,080 participate with God. With that, with that layering in 341 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,200 mind, even just focusing on this question we're dealing with 342 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,400 today, that which is most relevant to the first question, 343 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,320 what does it mean to to relate to the creation like it is good, 344 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,280 given all of the downsides you've identified, Amy? 345 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:03,720 It puts us in that context where when we sit, when we're asking 346 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,920 ourselves how to be fully present to something, how to 347 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,600 look at something for what it is, how to appreciate it 348 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:14,480 properly. It's not just this is a rock. 349 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,600 How can I learn to love the Rock? 350 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,120 It's that would be that would be an exercise in and of itself 351 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:22,200 well worth it. St. 352 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,680 Basil said that you could you could spend your entire life 353 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,320 contemplating the goodness of of a blade of grass and the hand 354 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,960 that made it, and that would be a a life well spent. 355 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,720 But anytime you were you are wrestling with this practical 356 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,840 question of how do I live? How do I look? 357 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,360 How do I be fully present? There are these other layers 358 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,200 behind it. You can have this confidence 359 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,640 that there is there's a further up and further in. 360 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,440 What do you mean by other layers? 361 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,520 So if I'm looking at, well, let's use your sunset example, 362 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,760 shall we? All right, when and I and I and 363 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,520 I agree, yes, it's, it's an easy one, but is it Psalm 19, The 364 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:01,640 heavens declare the glory of God. 365 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,880 I always get my numbers mixed up there. 366 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,160 There's part of that Psalm that's just isn't this 367 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,880 beautiful? There's a lot of references to 368 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:19,280 nature in the Psalms, often in the context of just meditate on 369 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,840 the glory of this thing. But then almost immediately 370 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,560 David is talking in symbolic language. 371 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,800 Almost immediately he's talking about bridegrooms. 372 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,200 The sun is a bridegroom, and he's referring to stars, which 373 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,600 throughout Scripture are used as metaphors for God's people. 374 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:47,120 But also it's strongly suggested that in some way they're mixed 375 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,400 up with angels, and some people have taken that to mean they are 376 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,600 angels. Lewis hints that he had some 377 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,880 sympathy for this view and voyage of the Don Treader when 378 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,080 he says even in your world, star is not a flaming ball of gas. 379 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,480 That's just what a star is made of. 380 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,640 Even just looking at the sky, the sun, the moon, the stars 381 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,960 there, there's the layer 1 of this is beautiful. 382 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,000 This is good. And layer 2 is and it means 383 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,120 something. And that's a lot of what Psalm 384 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:21,760 19 is dedicated to. Just sort of begging you. 385 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,680 No, no, no, don't just look at it and say, ah, nice sunset and 386 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,520 move on. Meditate on its meaning. 387 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,640 Meditate on the fact that God put us in a world where in the 388 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,480 face of light and darkness, there is always a light in the 389 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,360 sky that is above it. That's Lord of the Rings 390 00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:44,840 reference to Sam Sam Gamji reference to right. 391 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:52,800 And the you get the Sacramento layer of and there really is a 392 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:58,200 God and there really are heavenly hosts and heaven and 393 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,440 the heavens have some kind of relationship with each other in, 394 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,720 in, in scripture. And it's, it's not God lives in 395 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,720 the sky, full stop. But it's not these have these 396 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,600 things have nothing to do with each other either. 397 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,720 Does that help? So like when, when you're 398 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,880 looking at the one thing, it's never just the one thing. 399 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:24,600 Even appreciating it fully will just, if you let it, will take 400 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,040 you further up and further in into these other layers, 401 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,840 especially if you're reading God's Word in dialogue with the 402 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,560 pictures He provided, so to speak. 403 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,240 Right. So you've reminded me of the 404 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,840 early Christians being aware that they needed to pay 405 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,600 attention to the book of Scripture, but also the book of 406 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,320 creation. And you asked earlier about what 407 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,080 I said about shutting off an Ave. of knowing God in a way 408 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:55,080 through creation that maybe we don't get otherwise. 409 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,240 And I think that's the key thing that in Romans one, it says that 410 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,040 his eternal power and divine nature are made evident to us 411 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,880 through creation and in fact have been evident in creation 412 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,880 since the beginning of time. And if we shut our ears and our 413 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,080 eyes off to that, if we just view the world through 414 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,760 empirical, experimental eyes, then we miss all of that. 415 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,400 But I think one of the delightful things is that we 416 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,000 talk often about, or we have talked in the past and at 417 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,160 Anselm, about having an enchanted worldview. 418 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,680 I think once that becomes established, that when you are 419 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:37,800 looking at creation in many ways you are looking at, I don't want 420 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,160 to say lessons, but demonstrations of the character 421 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,720 of God. Once you know that, then even 422 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,680 the things that we're talking about as symbols sometimes from 423 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,200 the Psalms, there's a wonder in even looking at those symbols, 424 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,120 because are they only symbols when Job talks about the morning 425 00:27:56,120 --> 00:28:00,760 stars singing together as the sons of God shout for joy or or 426 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,920 we or the way a child can walk into the forest and think that 427 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,080 the trees are talking to her. That and and this passage from 428 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,160 Narnia. I think one of the telling 429 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,840 things about it is that when Lucy tries to wake the trees on 430 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,840 her on her own for their sake, for the sake of her remembrance 431 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,160 and of what each tree's character is like, it doesn't 432 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,320 work. And you pointed out earlier that 433 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:29,600 when she meets Aslan, when she sees him again, then those trees 434 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,720 are dancing. But what she walks into is the 435 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,000 response of creation to Aslan. And I feel like the closer that 436 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,920 we get to well, Aslan as we know him in our world, the more and 437 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,160 more we're able to see creation with enchanted eyes. 438 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,760 And that's not to say that we see them with falsely colored, 439 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,960 rose colored glasses, but perhaps we see them everything 440 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,480 more truly for what it is. Also because it's in its proper 441 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,920 place in our minds. We're not looking at creation as 442 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,240 something special and and superhuman unto itself, but it's 443 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,960 something created by God, loved by God. 444 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,400 And when we approach it in its right position like that, then 445 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,520 we too see more of God, but we also see creation more truly as 446 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,560 it is. Yes, what I, what I almost heard 447 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,040 in what you just said is that plants and animals are 448 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:27,160 worshipping by being themselves by, you know, they don't, they 449 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,400 don't have the level of agency and choice that that we do. 450 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:39,400 But a sunflower literally stretching toward the sun. 451 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:41,760 We have sunflowers in our garden. 452 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,960 We have, I watch this every day when the sun goes away, they 453 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,480 change direction and the sun comes back out wherever. 454 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,040 Like they're they're literally doing this over the course of a 455 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,640 day as the sun moves. If that's not an act of worship, 456 00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:00,960 I don't know what is. Just I can look out my window 457 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,560 and be reminded this is what I am made for, yeah. 458 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,040 There is that third layer, the Sacramento layer of what this is 459 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,960 all for. And I think as humans with a 460 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,720 particular vocation given to us by God with by being made in his 461 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,840 image and being told to multiply and have dominion. 462 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,880 I think an aspect of why I don't want to care about and look at 463 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,920 the material world around me is because it reminds me very 464 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,600 quickly that I am responsible. That it in some particular way, 465 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,720 my specialness in creation means that I'm more responsible for 466 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,280 the flourishing or the destruction of these things that 467 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,800 are by nature worshipping God through the way that they were 468 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,360 made. And that in my nature I need to 469 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,560 be born again and be remade into the image of the new Adam in 470 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,640 order to do what the flower is already doing, right. 471 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:16,120 And so there is a, there is a burden if we look at it without 472 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,040 the whole picture in mind, if we can basically just stop at the 473 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,360 fall and don't recognize the next part of the chapter. 474 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:25,840 Yeah. Because otherwise, yeah, 475 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:31,400 otherwise it becomes, well, your job was to mobilize the earth to 476 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,360 the worship of God. And you have failed and you will 477 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,840 fail every day and. That's true, but that's not the 478 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,920 end of the story. So what is the next part of the 479 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:41,880 story? Yeah. 480 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,600 There was a 1st century Athenian convert Christianity who's 481 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,480 remembered as Dionysus the Areopagite, and he was kind of 482 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,560 writing about this like what God the creation? 483 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,760 Like how does this whole relationship work? 484 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,840 And and he makes it, I think, as a useful point, which is that 485 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,120 God is infinite. So so yes, nothing can represent 486 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,840 him or analogize him completely. Nothing can nothing. 487 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,040 There's nothing that he has made that that gives you the whole 488 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,240 picture all by itself and gets you into the, the everything 489 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,440 nests of God. But he's poured his goodness 490 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,880 into what he has made and to even to praise him properly, to 491 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:33,840 worship Him properly, to have things to to mobilize to his 492 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,600 worship, you have to turn to all of creation. 493 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,760 It's not that creation is God and it's not that you know, that 494 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,080 whole rabbit trail. But it's also not true that you 495 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,720 guys have both made allusions to sort of material and 496 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,320 supernatural distinctions and scientific and religious 497 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,680 distinctions. And Dionysus just kind of shrugs 498 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,240 all of those off and goes like, no, you can say, you can say 499 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,600 that I breathe in oxygen and you can break that down to a 500 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:13,960 molecular level all you want. It is still completely 501 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,360 compatible with saying I have my life in him, literally that I am 502 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,360 breathing in life from God when I'm doing that. 503 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,800 These are not actually separate categories. 504 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,160 And because of that, this is a paraphrase, but he basically 505 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:35,280 says because all things have their life in him, He is hidden 506 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,360 in all things that exist. And now you that's 1st century, 507 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,600 right? So Jesus is new to him in this 508 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,080 in this picture. But to someone like that, the 509 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,560 the incarnation and sacrifice and resurrection of Christ 510 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,120 represents the invitation to see more fully. 511 00:33:54,120 --> 00:34:00,880 The invitation to be be less blind to what is there, but also 512 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,640 to participate in the work of Christ in doing all that stuff 513 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,400 that was so impossible otherwise. 514 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:12,920 So OK, we've talked a little bit about stuff and how it's not 515 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,280 just stuff. We've talked a little bit about 516 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:24,000 why it matters. Let's dig into this actual 517 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,920 question of presence and participation. 518 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:36,560 Because if, if a sunflower grows or a sunset appears or a maybe 519 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:45,560 rabbit is born and them being themselves is their act of 520 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,120 worship. It's, it's not, it's not just 521 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,199 your human imagination. When you walk outside and 100 522 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,280 birds are singing and, and it sort of just sort of feels like 523 00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,240 the morning is, is worshipping. It's not just your imagination. 524 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,280 Let's talk a little bit about our place in it. 525 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:09,120 If those things matter more than we perhaps have thought and yet 526 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,760 there's there's layers of things that matter even more and even 527 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,960 more and it just go higher and higher and further up and 528 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,400 further in. What then does it mean for us to 529 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,680 be present to that? What's the goal? 530 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,480 Who's goal? Mine. 531 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,360 All right, I'm going to, I'm going to get up tomorrow 532 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,520 morning, Amy. And I could, on the one hand, 533 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,840 give myself over to anxiety and stress. 534 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:42,200 I could secede mentally from the physical world entirely and 535 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,960 spend my entire day on screens and various forms of alternate 536 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,920 reality. I could, I could even be a 537 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,160 gardener or something and and still sort of turn away from the 538 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,840 creation in a pretty real sense, just not wanting to see, not 539 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,240 wanting to look. There are, there are lots of 540 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:04,600 ways I could get this wrong and there are lots of things that 541 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,920 are not, not my fault and I don't have to beat myself up for 542 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,600 too terribly much that make it hard. 543 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,160 But I would love to not do those things. 544 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:20,520 I would love to wake up tomorrow morning and be 1% more present 545 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,240 to the good things that God has made than I was this morning. 546 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,720 If that's sort of my intermediate going. 547 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:30,080 Why? Why do I? 548 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,200 Why do I want to do that? How do I do that? 549 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,120 One morning, I don't know what possessed me to do this, but. 550 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,560 That's a great beginning to a story. 551 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,520 Isn't it though? If you've ever been around a 552 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:43,720 baby, you've seen this happening. 553 00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:45,960 You probably don't see it with 40 year olds very often. 554 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,160 I woke up and I just looked at my hand. 555 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,240 Before. I think it was about 10 minutes 556 00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,560 straight. I was just looking at, I mean, 557 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:04,800 it's really look at it, it's not my hand, look at your hand, but 558 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,760 just the, the flexibility of it, the fact that there are five 559 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,800 fingers, this network of I seem to have a triangular pattern of 560 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,000 skin on the back of my hand that allows it to be elastic. 561 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,600 I think for other people, it might be diamonds or squares, 562 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,320 the fingernails, the creases running along the palm. 563 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,120 And I just thought like, well, it's been a long time since I've 564 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:27,960 seen somebody just check out their hand. 565 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:35,040 But that is I, I think it's very easy for us to jump from that to 566 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:40,880 say, see, how could things have just simply and bluntly evolved 567 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,080 into something like this? This proves that there must be a 568 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,240 crater. So put putting that aside for a 569 00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:51,760 second just to look at it, just to, I mean, if we're going on a 570 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,720 daily at a daily level of seeing, just to look at that 571 00:37:56,720 --> 00:38:01,720 hand, see if you're not moved to do something after that to think 572 00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:06,800 something to give thanks for something about that hand. 573 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,000 I think, you know, we lament all the time that we don't have the 574 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,680 ability to focus or concentrate on things for extended periods 575 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,320 of time these days. And I think that's true. 576 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,800 But I think also, it's simpler maybe than we think to begin to 577 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,640 pick up on some details and to just regard them and to just 578 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,880 have the see if you can find a person or two to whom you can 579 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,000 say, isn't this amazing? Isn't this beautiful? 580 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,280 And hopefully you'll have at least one or two people around 581 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,920 you who say, yeah, but let's say you do that. 582 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,040 You get up from your bed, you've looked at your hand. 583 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,280 You've gone through the usual rituals of getting ready for 584 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,320 your day. You go out to the garden and 585 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,560 maybe you have a zucchini or tomato and you bring that 586 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,480 inside. And The thing is, when you when 587 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,720 you put that zucchini or tomato on your cutting board, you're 588 00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,080 not going to ask that zucchini to be a tomato. 589 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,000 You're not going to ask the zucchini to be a key player in a 590 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,040 Caprese salad, and you're probably not going to make a 591 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,120 zucchini mashed sauce for your pasta if you're listening to the 592 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,920 creation the way that Robert Farrah Capon listens to that 593 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,400 onion. And I know that we cite that 594 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,000 chapter all the time, but if you have not read it, how much 595 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,880 attention can you pay to an onion? 596 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,640 But he does. And anybody who cooks, I think, 597 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,720 is constantly paying attention to the ripeness of the 598 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:20,040 ingredient, the way that things pair together. 599 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,160 You're listening to almost, if you'll allow me to put it 600 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,000 imaginatively, it's like you're listening to what that creation 601 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,160 is telling you it was created to be, what it ought to be, what it 602 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,680 will be at the best of its abilities. 603 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,560 And so as I was listening to something, I forget exactly what 604 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,880 it was that Sarah was saying earlier, but it made me think of 605 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,720 Michelangelo having that block of marble and chipping away. 606 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:48,360 I don't know if that story is actually true, but but if it is 607 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,760 true that we can listen to creation to a certain extent as 608 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,280 a reflection of its creator, and that creation itself knows that 609 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,520 it was created for something beyond just being static, then 610 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:06,520 the wonder that we get to engage with it being with it becoming a 611 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,800 mode of praise to God, and that even in our making we are being 612 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,600 called into a new mode of worship. 613 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,960 That's an amazing privilege. It's an amazing, creative, 614 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,000 exhilarating thing. So that, you know, if you know, 615 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,320 Michelangelo is looking at this block of marble and he's just 616 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,840 chipping away the sculpture that he sees inside of it, Maybe it's 617 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,560 not just a fanciful image or a way to say that he was creating. 618 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,280 Maybe imagine it if that were true. 619 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,320 What you're describing, Amy, sounds like a relationship 620 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,720 getting to know something. Brian, you asked what the goal 621 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:51,720 was, and it seems like the goal might be to just know something 622 00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:55,000 more deeply. Like if we asked what the goal 623 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,200 was for our friendship for for true friendship, what would be 624 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,480 our answer? I don't know if the answer would 625 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,240 be very much different for the creative things as well. 626 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,680 And when you come into contact with reality, which is 627 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,680 fundamentally interpersonal, right, like relational, and like 628 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,000 you're saying in an imaginative way, you can say that they're 629 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,440 truly speaking to you. You're, you're diving more into 630 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:28,120 and revealing and uncovering what they were made to be. 631 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:34,240 That only allows for more and more possibilities. 632 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,560 Yeah. Sarah as as an artist, have you 633 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,800 ever had an an art teacher challenge you on anything like 634 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,080 this or give you give you an exercise to to really look at 635 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,040 something or to recognize the potential in something? 636 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,520 Yeah, I think that all of art challenges us to do this all 637 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,320 representational art. When you when you are faced and 638 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:03,000 forced to look at something and try to express it, you can't 639 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:09,480 even communicate in our modern information based way what it 640 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,440 means to draw an apple. Because it's not a 641 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,800 two-dimensional thing. It's not just information, it's 642 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,640 not something you can copy and paste. 643 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:25,160 It's this dynamic living in some way, literally breathing thing 644 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,800 that is in motion as it sits there, right? 645 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,960 It's it's moving towards decay. Now that it's off of the vine, 646 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,000 your relationship to it constantly changes, even with 647 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,280 the smallest amount of your head movement or your arm moving 648 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,800 somewhere, which which tilts your head in a different way. 649 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:50,320 And so there's this live interaction that just hits you 650 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,480 in the face, just like the sunset does. 651 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,200 You can't deny it. And you have to at some point 652 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:02,200 admit by the ugly drawing that you have produced that you did 653 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,760 not pay attention, that you did not care to work through what 654 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,880 you thought it was in order to just attend and allow it to 655 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,960 disclose itself to you. Which means you have to sit and 656 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:23,280 actually make what Doctor Esther, like Cap Meeks, calls a 657 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,400 covenant epistemology. Which is 2 really fancy words 658 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:34,200 just to say that you've got to promise to love, honor and obey 659 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,960 what you do not yet know sitting in front of you. 660 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:41,040 That apple, if you're going to invite it to self disclose 661 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:46,880 itself to you that so. So I love your question, and I 662 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,080 don't know if there's a particular exercise. 663 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,280 I'm using the example of drawing an apple, but it just seems like 664 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:57,120 it's the extent of all of my experience in the visual 665 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:02,280 representational world. Yeah, well, it what I'm what I'm 666 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,360 hearing you say is that submission comes before mastery. 667 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,920 Yes. Definitely, you have to submit 668 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,840 to the raw material. You have to submit to the 669 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,200 reality of the thing and and approach it with humility before 670 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,640 you can master the craft. And that's a perfect analogy for 671 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,440 the the point you made at the beginning of what you just said, 672 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,000 which was that you don't know that it's that different 673 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:30,320 relating to the rest of the creation as it is relating to 674 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,680 the rest of the created humans. If I want to get to know a human 675 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,840 well, that's a daunting task. Even if he or she wants to let 676 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,000 me in and, and you know, be known. 677 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,480 It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a stunting. 678 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,840 I have to be willing to listen a lot. 679 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,520 I have to be able, you know, I'm not coming in saying I want to 680 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,720 figure this person out and fill out, fill out my 3 bullets and 681 00:44:55,720 --> 00:45:02,920 move on or, or to control them. I have to be willing to pay 682 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,680 close attention to who the person actually is. 683 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,920 And that means a lot of looking and a lot of listening, not with 684 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,200 an eye to saying the thing I want to say, but with an eye to 685 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,960 actually hearing. And it's on some level looking 686 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,480 at that person with, with, with wonder. 687 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,400 I also think that God is so kind to the way that he gives us the 688 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:28,560 created world to interact with so that we can learn how not to 689 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,200 have a self referential view. It's the same reason why we talk 690 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,880 all the time in in Christian circles about how you cannot 691 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,680 live in isolation, but to be a Christian is to be a part of the 692 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,280 whole body of Christ, which is his church. 693 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,920 That's true of the church in a very real and and beautiful 694 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,440 specific way, but that's also true to a different degree in 695 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,120 terms of all of creation. God didn't just put us on like a 696 00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:01,400 flat white plain for us to just interact with humans solely. 697 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:08,160 It's important for us to have other voices in the ensemble. 698 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,560 Yeah. Yeah, I forgot what I was going 699 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:17,720 to say now, but I did have a question for you, Sarah, because 700 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:20,960 as Brian was saying, when you're working on a piece of art and 701 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,440 you're trying to take into account all that you're hearing, 702 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,600 I was realizing that I think it works that way in writing too, 703 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,040 although it's not necessarily with tactile materials that you 704 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,040 can get halfway through a project and realize that the 705 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,760 work you're working on is asking to become something else than 706 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,640 what you originally envisioned it to be. 707 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,720 I guess kind of like Madeline Lingle talks about in Walking on 708 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:48,960 Water. But do you ever finish pieces of 709 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,840 art that you feel are more true to that vision and to that 710 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,720 listening than others? Like have you ever gotten to the 711 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:59,920 point where you say this is what I heard and this is what I saw 712 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:01,680 and here it is represented fully? 713 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:09,120 Absolutely, it has been the case where what I am deeply desiring 714 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,720 to bring forth does come to fruition and praise God, that's 715 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,840 a little moment of joy for the artist. 716 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:22,760 But in a somewhat sweeter way is when you there's so much 717 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:28,200 complexity, there's so much to swim in when you really get to 718 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:33,520 attend to what's in front of you that it's going back to the self 719 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,360 referential view. It it's, it's more boring almost 720 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,640 to pick something out of it all to say. 721 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,400 But instead there's this joy of surprise that comes at the end 722 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:54,840 when you have faithfully enjoyed and swum swam, swam in it all. 723 00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:01,760 And out at the end, God reveals something beautiful that wasn't 724 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,160 that, that that has been, that is now expressed and is now 725 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,000 memorialized and celebrated especially. 726 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,600 It's just it's, yeah, there's something about the surprise at 727 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,240 the end that I think is actually more important and more 728 00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,480 wonderful for the artist than the artist having a particular 729 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:25,200 vision that they see, that they want to capture and that they 730 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,720 have. Expressed, yeah, OK, so yourself 731 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:33,200 referential reference, sorry, made me remember what it was I 732 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,560 was going to say earlier, which was that as we're paying 733 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:43,160 attention to creation as we're called to create under the the 734 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,880 protection and the guidance of the master creator. 735 00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:50,320 I think one of the things that's also taking place in those 736 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,640 instances is that we are practicing to become the people 737 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,280 that we will be in the new creation. 738 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,360 Because in the new creation, I believe that we will be people 739 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,240 who can listen better than we can now and people who create 740 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:08,520 out of that, listening to create gardens out of the wilderness to 741 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,840 create, I don't know, sculptures out of marble, as we were 742 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,880 saying, delectable culinary dishes out of the ingredients 743 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,520 that are at the peak of their powers. 744 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,600 But that is also life that, as you said earlier, we have 745 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,160 already been born again. We are already starting to live 746 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,120 into that existence now. And so I think that is one of 747 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,680 the liberating things. But I also love that you said, I 748 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,760 think this is what I caught in what you were saying too, that 749 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,240 there are many modes of reality that we could communicate as 750 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,440 artists or writers or poets or musicians about creation. 751 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,240 And you can't do them all all at once. 752 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:51,960 Even having the apple in front of you, there's maybe a few ways 753 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,280 that you can communicate the truth of that apple or express 754 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,560 it, you know, in different ways, whether it's impressionistic or 755 00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,080 realistic or whatever. But I think I think that's one 756 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,720 of the most beautiful things, the beautiful graces that God 757 00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:06,480 has given to us in our partnership in this creation, 758 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,200 which is that, as you said, Esther Meeks was saying it has 759 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,440 to do with love. So, Brian, when we're getting up 760 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,800 in the morning and we're thinking about how it is that we 761 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,480 can engage with creation, how can how can we be more present 762 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,160 to it? I think if we get out of bed 763 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,560 with the intent to love his creation as a means of loving 764 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,120 God, but also just realizing that those are things that go 765 00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:34,520 together, then the question doesn't become how do we 766 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,120 perfectly do this? Because even in a friendship, 767 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,560 you can come into a relationship thinking how, how can I be the 768 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,360 perfect friend? But there's so love. 769 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:49,000 The word love itself and the concept itself opens up an ocean 770 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,080 of possibilities. There's no one right way to love 771 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:53,960 somebody. You just do. 772 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:59,280 And it it it expresses itself in myriad creative, beautiful ways. 773 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,080 But there's so much freedom in that that I think ought to be 774 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,080 able to free us from am I doing this right? 775 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,760 Am I stewarding this right? Am I crafting this right? 776 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:17,640 You know, And so I think that's something very grace giving of 777 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,400 him. Yeah, that's so beautifully 778 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,560 said. We just finished doing a four 779 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:29,120 week study of Tom Bombadil. And the first part of that 780 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,560 conversation was we put on this podcast. 781 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,480 Hopefully many of you all have listened to it. 782 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,960 But one of the things that we observed in that conversation, 783 00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:43,640 drawing from CR Wiley's book, was that he contrasts Bombadil 784 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:49,560 with Saruman in in in the why of how they enter into the 785 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,080 creation. Because for Saruman, it's about 786 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,680 control. And it's easy to write him off 787 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:55,760 as, oh, he's the villain. Of course he's trying, you know, 788 00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,040 he's trying to use it for his own ends. 789 00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,200 OK, fine. But that's how we approached 790 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,280 large chunks of our day and large chunks of the the things 791 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,240 that we interact with. It's what what can I get out of 792 00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,000 this? I don't I don't walk into my 793 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:14,240 kitchen at lunchtime thinking, how can I revel in the beauty of 794 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,600 this, the ingredients in here? I walk in there going I my 795 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,240 stomach is empty. I want it full. 796 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:26,560 And it's it's easy for that to just that consumption narrative 797 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:31,960 to write itself into our our our neurons and become become 798 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,800 default. And Tom Bombadil, on the other 799 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:41,880 hand, his goal seems to be communion, not control, which 800 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:47,000 gets at your your love idea. When he even when even when he's 801 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,600 bossing around old man Willow, what does he tell him to do? 802 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,200 He tells him be more like a Willow. 803 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,680 It's not simply behave, although it is. 804 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,920 It's. This is what you were made for. 805 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,560 Do this thing. I love that you brought up 806 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:10,360 Sauron and and Sauron and they're they're such an overt 807 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:17,160 dominating, needing control archetype. 808 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:23,040 The story, though, that we've centered around today with Lucy 809 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,960 and the trees, If we think about how Lewis has set up why the 810 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,840 trees are asleep in the first place in the story, Prince 811 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,240 Caspian, it's because the Telmarines have come in 812 00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:40,480 conquered the area. And he never really says exactly 813 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:47,320 why the trees are asleep, but that from the presence of the 814 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:53,240 Telmarines who are fearful of them, they have gone to sleep 815 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,320 and they don't want to wake for the Telmarines, right. 816 00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:04,920 And I think bringing up the concept that Lewis images here 817 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:12,920 of fear is, is interesting because in a lot of ways, this 818 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,440 conversation can really easily fall in deaf ears because 819 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:22,360 nothing is technically going to change about one's life if they 820 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,400 go into the kitchen and say, I want my stomach full and then 821 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,880 they move on. But what's happening is in your 822 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:34,800 fear, in your scarcity, in your need for control and to just go 823 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,240 from one thing to the next in that self referential way, you 824 00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:40,200 just lose out. Like you're saying, Brian in 825 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,240 Communion, because the things around you and all of their 826 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:49,240 delights are asleep to you. So maybe we don't go around 827 00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:53,880 destroying the earth with every single conscious decision we 828 00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,720 make throughout the day. Though we do have blood on our 829 00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:01,480 hands, so to speak, with a lot of the ways that we have set up 830 00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,280 our systems and life in the world. 831 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:09,560 But those everyday small acts aren't usually destructive in 832 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,320 our own intentionality. They are often, though, putting 833 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,320 to sleep the things around us and ourselves. 834 00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:20,920 And I think it's important to go from that, that incredibly 835 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,400 important observation and essentially pendulum swing back 836 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,600 to where we think we should go because the the instinct is to 837 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,560 go, Oh yes, we shouldn't be destructive. 838 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,360 We should preserve, we shouldn't mess it up. 839 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:39,600 But our relationship throughout scripture, throughout Christian 840 00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:43,240 theology, the the imago days relationship with, with 841 00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:47,680 wilderness is not to preserve it, but to make a garden. 842 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:53,160 That's right. And so communion starts with 843 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:58,080 loving the thing for itself. It starts with that almost act 844 00:55:58,080 --> 00:55:59,040 of submission. What? 845 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,640 Who are you and how do I love you? 846 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,320 But ultimately it's not just leaving it at that. 847 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,920 It's about it. Since it is about mobilizing the 848 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:16,720 earth to the worship of God. We're not, we're not stopping at 849 00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:22,120 a certain point in including in our search for God and to grow 850 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,560 closer to God. The way, the way out isn't the 851 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,640 door is shut and the way and the way out isn't around. 852 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,840 The way out is through all up. Throw in one one last anecdote 853 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,000 before we close. I was driving home with my 854 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,640 family the other night and Colorado has weird weather in 855 00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:46,480 the summers and it was the most beautiful sky I've ever seen in 856 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,720 my life because and and we didn't even bother trying to 857 00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:51,160 take a picture or video or anything. 858 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:54,880 There's nothing that could ever have done it justice, but we 859 00:56:54,880 --> 00:57:00,280 had. It was at sunset during a heat 860 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:07,080 lightning storm, and as you looked across the panorama of 861 00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:11,160 the sky, it was almost like there were different chapters in 862 00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,080 a story represented in the sky all at once. 863 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:19,800 Because there was the oh, look at sunset, beautiful orange 864 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,880 against the black silhouette of the mountains. 865 00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:28,160 And then there was the different, different shades of 866 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,720 kind of purple all the way to orange and yellow that that was 867 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:35,000 casting on some of the white clouds and some of the Gray 868 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:36,640 clouds. And then over here, there's a 869 00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,640 patch of sky that's completely blue with beautiful white 870 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,120 cumulus clouds as if nothing's going on at all. 871 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:47,920 And there's, there's a spectrum across all of this of, of the 872 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,920 lightning, like shooting across it. 873 00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,360 And we were all kind of tired. Neither of my kids had the 874 00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,840 greatest attitude in the moment. Nobody really, nobody was really 875 00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,120 in the mood to go, oh wow, look at that. 876 00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,000 They were all all in kind of the mood to shrug it off. 877 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:10,240 It wouldn't let us And, and to my wife's credit, she wouldn't 878 00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:12,760 let us. She kept kind of forcing us to 879 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:21,000 look and the the one by one, each person caved to how 880 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,080 beautiful it was and stopped being fully present to whatever 881 00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,800 they were sulking about, stopped, stopped staring at the 882 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:31,360 cars going by and was just fully present to what God had put 883 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,800 before us. And the same thought occurred to 884 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,520 both Christina and I. And we said it to the kids and 885 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,120 they were echoing it in their their own small ways. 886 00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:48,840 There's no way that's just atoms and molecules. 887 00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:55,440 I don't know if that if that was God creating a work of art and 888 00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,520 that's all it was, if that's all it was, that's all we needed it 889 00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:05,000 to be, or if that really was, in some mysterious way, some 890 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,520 element of cosmic reality playing out before our limited 891 00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:09,960 eyes. I don't know. 892 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:20,880 But either way, it kind of felt like the latter, and it demanded 893 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:28,960 that we be fully present to it. So this continues to be 894 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,640 challenging. There's a lot of life that tugs 895 00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,160 us in different directions and tells us a different story. 896 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:44,280 So with that in mind, our next episode is going to be the audio 897 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:49,360 from a lecture that the visual artist Josh Teason gave at an 898 00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:54,080 End Sound Society event recently, which is a perfect 899 00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,960 just lead on from this conversation, especially some of 900 00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,960 the points that Sarah has made towards the end here about well, 901 01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,560 OK, this is here's some of the destructive stuff we have done 902 01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,560 in creation. What does it mean to look at the 903 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,680 creation properly and to think about our role in it more 904 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,440 deeply? If you want to prepare for that 905 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,880 episode properly, look him up. Josh Teeson T i.e. 906 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,040 SSEN and look up his Vanitas and Veriditas series and look at 907 01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,560 some of those paintings. We will have slides in the video 908 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,600 version of the podcast, but yeah, look out for that. 909 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,600 And after that, we will be doing a lot of feasting. 910 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,760 We will be getting together for our fall Middle Earth feasts, 911 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,080 September 19th and 20th that you can all join us for whether you 912 01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:43,640 have to hop in a car or a plane. And we will be doing an episode 913 01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:48,680 on why we feast. And a lot of our fall episodes 914 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,520 will be very focused on the the how shall we then live of all 915 01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,200 this? If, if, if being still really 916 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,680 matters so much, If being present really matters so much, 917 01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:02,800 if seeing the beautiful multiplicity of layers of of 918 01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:07,840 meaning and communion in what God has made, if that is all 919 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:14,600 real, then how shall we feast? And we will be getting into that 920 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,360 in the coming weeks. Amy, Sarah, thank you for 921 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,000 joining me for this conversation. 922 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:21,480 My. Pleasure. 923 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:27,160 And thank you all for listening. I want I'll close this out with 924 01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:32,400 a quote from Alexander Schemman. There must be someone in this 925 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,800 world which rejected God, and in this rejection, in this 926 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,040 blasphemy, became a chaos of darkness. 927 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:42,440 There must be someone to stand at its center and to discern, to 928 01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:47,160 see it again as full of divine riches, as the cup, full of life 929 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:51,200 and joy, as beauty and wisdom, and to thank God for it. 930 01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:55,240 This someone is Christ, the new Adam, who restores that 931 01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,240 Eucharistic life which I, the old Adam, have rejected and 932 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:03,440 lost, who makes me again what I am and restores the world to me. 933 01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,880 And if the Church is in Christ, it's initial act is always this 934 01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:11,920 act of Thanksgiving, of returning the world to God. 935 01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,040 The Imagination Redeemed podcast is the production of the Anselm 936 01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,360 Society. It's easy to see this world as 937 01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,520 disenchanted and to give up hope that there's more. 938 01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,040 But you were made to see the world with the eyes of heaven 939 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,520 and to live a bountiful life that participates in the life of 940 01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,640 God. Like in the great stories, the 941 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,840 Ansome Society is a place where you can come in and experience 942 01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,680 that beauty, joyful celebration, and ancient wisdom and go out 943 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,240 renewed, bringing that life to your vocation, your home, and 944 01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,840 your church. Join us next time as we pursue a 945 01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,120 renaissance of the Christian imagination together.