1 00:00:01,710 --> 00:00:04,840 Hey friend, welcome to another episode of the podcast Happy 2 00:00:04,850 --> 00:00:09,560 Post Easter. We are jumping into hopefully a 3 00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:13,940 new rhythm and regular weekly recordings of these podcasts now 4 00:00:13,950 --> 00:00:16,200 that we're through Easter. So it was fun to relaunch with 5 00:00:16,210 --> 00:00:21,380 Easter, and now our plan is to continue with the weekly 6 00:00:21,390 --> 00:00:25,710 recordings that, as we've done, follow the sermon series that 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,330 we're in. So we're back into Luke, which 8 00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:30,870 means every week we're gonna jump into a deeper conversation 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,710 around a few specific things from the text. 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,510 This week we started Luke 16. Doozy right after Easter to 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,410 like, jump into just like one of Jesus's most confusing parables 12 00:00:43,470 --> 00:00:45,930 just just for fun, you know? This is this is the thing that I 13 00:00:45,940 --> 00:00:51,430 said on Sunday was like, if you are just back because it was 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,510 Easter and you're new to church and, you know, maybe you came on 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,010 Easter or went somewhere on Easter or maybe, you know, 16 00:00:58,020 --> 00:00:59,990 something has kind of been nagging at you. 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,240 I would say that that's God. But you know, something's been 18 00:01:02,250 --> 00:01:03,350 kind of in the back of your mind. 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,630 I need to go to church. And like yesterday was the first 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,870 day you showed up. I love that you were there. 21 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:14,440 And it's a hard, it's a hard passage to jump into, yeah. 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,680 But I think the thing that I want people to know just as we 23 00:01:16,690 --> 00:01:21,920 begin is, uh, you know, like the, the reason why I think it 24 00:01:21,930 --> 00:01:25,800 matters that we address the difficult conversations in 25 00:01:25,810 --> 00:01:28,420 Scripture and we're going to get more into that later on, I think 26 00:01:28,580 --> 00:01:29,980 today. But the reason why I think it's 27 00:01:29,990 --> 00:01:35,720 important to just not gloss over or jump through or skip over or, 28 00:01:35,770 --> 00:01:37,550 you know, just like pretend like they don't exist. 29 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,500 These types of passages is because we really actually at 30 00:01:40,510 --> 00:01:43,340 the end of the day, like we say things like the gospel matters, 31 00:01:43,390 --> 00:01:46,380 Jesus matters for your everyday life, like the practical way you 32 00:01:46,390 --> 00:01:49,460 live your life out. But then we talk often like the 33 00:01:49,470 --> 00:01:56,450 church, we get so stuck talking in spiritual, I say like realms, 34 00:01:56,460 --> 00:01:59,870 but like in in spiritual conversations or emotional 35 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:01,750 conversations, which are all great. 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,690 We say it's practical. But then when it comes to money 37 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,860 or some of the most practical topics that we think the 38 00:02:07,870 --> 00:02:10,150 Christian faith should impact, we're like, that makes me 39 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,900 uncomfortable. Let's not talk about it. 40 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,010 So we like hyper spiritualized stuff for the sake of not 41 00:02:15,020 --> 00:02:17,010 talking about. No, like just the brass tacks of 42 00:02:17,020 --> 00:02:19,850 it. Like what does this change for 43 00:02:19,860 --> 00:02:22,010 the way that you spend your money? 44 00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:25,310 So if it was your first Sunday, I love that you were there. 45 00:02:25,420 --> 00:02:28,440 If you know somebody, if you're listening and you met somebody 46 00:02:28,450 --> 00:02:30,380 on Sunday who's, you know, who's there for the very first time, 47 00:02:30,390 --> 00:02:32,480 like I think it actually matters to continue to have these 48 00:02:32,490 --> 00:02:35,180 conversations in the church. And that's what we hope this 49 00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:39,650 podcast does on a larger level as well is encourage you to have 50 00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:41,840 conversations. So don't let it die. 51 00:02:41,850 --> 00:02:43,940 Like I know you're listening, some of you are listening on 52 00:02:43,950 --> 00:02:48,880 your commutes or while you're exercising, you know, walking 53 00:02:49,030 --> 00:02:51,980 outside, inside, like a whole lot of different places and 54 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:54,160 spaces. Don't let it die there. 55 00:02:54,170 --> 00:02:57,300 Like don't let it die in your earbuds just by listening. 56 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,710 Try to have one more conversation. 57 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,710 I think that would be my my challenge to you. 58 00:03:01,780 --> 00:03:04,810 Well, and I, and I think that, so I mean, sort of tying into 59 00:03:04,820 --> 00:03:11,910 where I was hoping to go today is to talk through like how we, 60 00:03:12,260 --> 00:03:17,610 how we intentionally lean into harder passages and, and get 61 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:19,780 into, you know, like, so there's, there's two 62 00:03:19,790 --> 00:03:21,150 conversations that I'd like to have. 63 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,360 And it may go in a few different directions, but there's a kind 64 00:03:23,370 --> 00:03:29,060 of a meta conversation, a higher level conversation around what 65 00:03:29,070 --> 00:03:33,670 we do with passages like the parable of the shrewd manager 66 00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:37,420 and, and the difficulties that it raises, the tensions it 67 00:03:37,430 --> 00:03:40,200 raises. And there are tons of passages 68 00:03:40,210 --> 00:03:42,720 like that, you know, innumerable. 69 00:03:42,730 --> 00:03:45,220 We could, you know, go through, we could spend days going 70 00:03:45,230 --> 00:03:47,480 through the scriptures and, and highlighting, man, this, there's 71 00:03:47,490 --> 00:03:49,630 a lot of tension in this, in these passages, a lot of things 72 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,980 we don't know how to answer or deal with. 73 00:03:52,870 --> 00:03:56,260 So there's sort of like a higher level conversation that I, I'd 74 00:03:56,270 --> 00:03:58,820 be interested to get into. How do we press in rather than 75 00:03:58,830 --> 00:04:02,120 check out? And and then and then a little 76 00:04:02,130 --> 00:04:05,600 later on, I want to get more out of personal level and, and OK, 77 00:04:05,610 --> 00:04:11,940 but also there is a conflict our own selves and how do we how do 78 00:04:11,950 --> 00:04:15,400 we deal with that? But let's start at the higher, 79 00:04:15,410 --> 00:04:18,140 higher level first. And, and so, yeah, like when 80 00:04:18,149 --> 00:04:23,790 scripture is a little confusing, when it's unclear the the the 81 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,930 meaning that we're meant to derive. 82 00:04:25,940 --> 00:04:28,950 And I think that's very true here is that it's, we were, you 83 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,190 know, sitting there, you and myself and Allison last 84 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,740 Wednesday, I think it was we were sitting there just like, 85 00:04:37,660 --> 00:04:39,730 OK, what, what do we do with this? 86 00:04:39,740 --> 00:04:42,470 How does this preach? What like what, how do you go? 87 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,410 And, and then at even even like an hour and a half later, it was 88 00:04:45,420 --> 00:04:47,990 like, OK, Grant, bless you, go, go have fun. 89 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,670 You know, like that was that was part of the challenge, right? 90 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,650 And so like when, when the, the, the meaning we're supposed to 91 00:04:53,660 --> 00:04:55,990 derive is a little unclear. How, how do we read it? 92 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,180 How do we learn and grow from passages like this? 93 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:02,820 And how do we press in rather than checking out? 94 00:05:02,830 --> 00:05:05,760 And I'm kind of giving a whole bunch of questions that you can 95 00:05:05,770 --> 00:05:07,000 latch on to whichever way you feel. 96 00:05:07,010 --> 00:05:10,310 Yeah, so, so I think I said this when we were meeting for some of 97 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,480 the sermon prep conversation is like, I'm weird. 98 00:05:12,490 --> 00:05:15,320 I love these passages. Like actually I enjoy these 99 00:05:15,330 --> 00:05:16,940 ones. They're they're so much fun to 100 00:05:16,950 --> 00:05:19,600 preach. And like, I had a pretty good 101 00:05:19,610 --> 00:05:22,900 idea of where we were going to go and we were going to land. 102 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,790 I think I interestingly, I say interestingly, not ironically, 103 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,790 but interestingly, the answer to both of your questions, I think 104 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,390 is the same. So I, I think the answer to both 105 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,170 of your questions, and we'll get there, like we'll get to the 106 00:05:36,180 --> 00:05:41,350 second part is community. And that, you know, I think one 107 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,170 of the things that we've done in sort of like the post 108 00:05:46,180 --> 00:05:51,450 enlightenment era of information and formation is we've made it 109 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,750 very personal. So what's happened in, uh, you 110 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,460 know, certainly like more really more recently, even the last 100 111 00:06:00,470 --> 00:06:07,700 years is that information formation and spiritual 112 00:06:07,710 --> 00:06:12,580 formation has become radically individualized so that the, the 113 00:06:12,590 --> 00:06:20,980 narrative is how am I growing or being shaped or being formed? 114 00:06:20,990 --> 00:06:23,480 Even to ask that question is like, I think a little bit 115 00:06:23,490 --> 00:06:26,700 further along down the road, most of us are being formed by 116 00:06:26,710 --> 00:06:28,470 something without even realizing it. 117 00:06:28,650 --> 00:06:34,920 And so we consume and we watch, we read, we, you know, hours of 118 00:06:34,930 --> 00:06:38,170 it inputting all of it, shaping us, informing us. 119 00:06:39,020 --> 00:06:43,410 O I think we need just to simply say that's happening. 120 00:06:44,250 --> 00:06:50,040 Formation happens and what you consume is either gonna form you 121 00:06:50,110 --> 00:06:56,020 or to a certain extent deform you into more of I would say as 122 00:06:56,030 --> 00:07:00,160 a pastor, as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus into more of 123 00:07:00,610 --> 00:07:04,250 the person that Jesus is creating you to be or less of 124 00:07:04,260 --> 00:07:05,560 the person Jesus is creating you to be. 125 00:07:05,570 --> 00:07:08,790 Another way to put that is, you know, Christ likeness is the way 126 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,000 Scripture talks about it. So how am I being shaped more 127 00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:15,580 into the likeness of Christ? How am I being shaped less into 128 00:07:15,590 --> 00:07:18,530 the likeness of Christ? How am I being formed more to be 129 00:07:18,540 --> 00:07:21,370 like Jesus? How am I being deformed to be 130 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:24,430 unlike Jesus? That's happening all the time, 131 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,530 like unless you're really good at silence and solitude, it's 132 00:07:29,540 --> 00:07:35,020 happening like almost 24/7. And so that is something that 133 00:07:35,090 --> 00:07:37,190 that's something that we need to name now. 134 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,250 I think where it becomes really problematic for us is that we 135 00:07:42,260 --> 00:07:45,730 think about our formation from a, the individual's perspective, 136 00:07:45,740 --> 00:07:50,810 like from my, my formation, whether that's spiritual, 137 00:07:50,820 --> 00:07:53,930 psychological, emotional, relational, intellectual, it 138 00:07:53,940 --> 00:07:58,230 it's, it's often and, and almost always about my, how am I being 139 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,070 shaped and formed or how am I shaping and forming someone 140 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,710 else. But we think about that being 141 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,630 shaped and being formed at an individual level. 142 00:08:06,700 --> 00:08:09,030 It's me, it's you. Those are different. 143 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,040 Like we're, we're different. You're being shaped and formed 144 00:08:11,050 --> 00:08:12,140 one way. I'm being shaped and formed in 145 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:14,050 another way. And, you know, occasionally we 146 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:16,840 have conversations, but like, you know, maybe parallel tracks, 147 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:18,960 but we're we're, you know, completely separate. 148 00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:24,140 And I think that is it's something that's that's new. 149 00:08:24,190 --> 00:08:27,050 Now bring it back to scripture where it comes in for us as we 150 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:29,100 read Scripture is for a long time. 151 00:08:29,110 --> 00:08:34,380 The church has now spoken about like my time in scripture, which 152 00:08:34,390 --> 00:08:36,020 is good. Like don't hear me say like you 153 00:08:36,030 --> 00:08:38,419 need to spend time in insert If your take away is don't read the 154 00:08:38,429 --> 00:08:40,900 Bible, you're you're wanting to hear that like you're trying to 155 00:08:40,909 --> 00:08:42,020 hear. That you read the Bible in 156 00:08:42,030 --> 00:08:44,150 church and community, right? You know, like that's not yeah, 157 00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:46,450 that's not the take away. You're trying, you're trying to 158 00:08:46,460 --> 00:08:50,010 hear something that I'm not saying, but you know, I, I do 159 00:08:50,020 --> 00:08:53,580 think we, we have this greater emphasis on my personal time 160 00:08:53,590 --> 00:08:56,660 with Jesus, my reading of Scripture, my prayer, my 161 00:08:56,670 --> 00:09:02,180 individual spiritual formation. And that's where, where passages 162 00:09:02,190 --> 00:09:05,100 like we dealt with on Sunday about the shrewd manager become 163 00:09:05,110 --> 00:09:09,830 problematic because it's so easy to do what we said we don't want 164 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,720 to do, which is either ignore it and jump over it and skip it and 165 00:09:12,730 --> 00:09:14,480 just be it makes me uncomfortable. 166 00:09:14,550 --> 00:09:17,180 So I don't want to deal with it or it it puts me in a place 167 00:09:17,190 --> 00:09:19,340 where like, I don't actually understand what's going on here. 168 00:09:20,090 --> 00:09:22,480 And I'm not sure what we're supposed to get from it. 169 00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:25,280 Either you make a bad like this is the thing I'm supposed to get 170 00:09:25,290 --> 00:09:29,260 from it, or you just, again, you move on because it's hard to 171 00:09:29,270 --> 00:09:31,840 understand. And so, you know, these 172 00:09:31,850 --> 00:09:34,980 passages, more than any other passage in Scripture, are these 173 00:09:34,990 --> 00:09:38,480 invitations into community and into this community formation. 174 00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:41,590 How are we being shaped and formed together and how are we 175 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,910 participating in that? Like, even I think about Justin, 176 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,260 these conversations that you and I have are, you know, are are 177 00:09:48,270 --> 00:09:51,440 fun and encouraging and, you know, hopefully helpful to other 178 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:54,160 people, but it helps shape and form you and I. 179 00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:55,620 Yeah. To have these conversations. 180 00:09:55,630 --> 00:09:59,520 Like we talk about Scripture and that shapes and forms us 181 00:09:59,590 --> 00:10:02,220 together differently than if I were just reading it by myself 182 00:10:02,230 --> 00:10:04,540 in the same way. And I'm glad you brought up our 183 00:10:04,550 --> 00:10:08,400 preaching meetings. It's the exact same approach 184 00:10:08,410 --> 00:10:11,760 there. I can hole away and think and 185 00:10:11,770 --> 00:10:15,220 pray and then go for walks and write and edit and think and 186 00:10:15,230 --> 00:10:18,610 pray and write and edit and read and input from authors that are 187 00:10:18,620 --> 00:10:21,620 maybe some alive and some dead and like, I can write an entire 188 00:10:21,630 --> 00:10:23,580 sermon by myself without talking to anybody. 189 00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:29,860 Is that a better sermon than one that was sort of at least either 190 00:10:29,870 --> 00:10:33,500 initially crafted and formed and shaped in community with you, 191 00:10:33,510 --> 00:10:38,650 with Allison, with others who are preaching and teaching, if 192 00:10:38,660 --> 00:10:41,070 not at the beginning, kind of part way through the process. 193 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,430 Is it better for me to bounce ideas off of people who are 194 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,060 living inside of the same community and feeling the same 195 00:10:48,070 --> 00:10:50,890 things and reading the same news and going like we're reading the 196 00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:52,670 same passage now and wrestling it out? 197 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:56,590 No, the the first option, me holding away, you know, might be 198 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,890 necessary a few times, you know, in a preaching cycle. 199 00:11:01,980 --> 00:11:06,490 But vastly more helpful is the community formed and shaped 200 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,340 message where you know, there there are these conversations 201 00:11:10,350 --> 00:11:14,580 that are happening. So you know, I, I think just to 202 00:11:14,590 --> 00:11:19,860 kind of summarize the the danger is to make everything radically 203 00:11:19,870 --> 00:11:24,760 individualistic, radically about only yourself and how you 204 00:11:24,770 --> 00:11:28,720 approach Scripture and these passages more than any of them, 205 00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:31,940 but all of them are an invitation toward community. 206 00:11:31,950 --> 00:11:33,300 I'll give you a really quick example. 207 00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:37,810 I had somebody come up to me after the sermon on Sunday and I 208 00:11:37,820 --> 00:11:41,470 love this, absolutely love this. It is like, it's bold and brave 209 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,430 and like, you know, not everybody has the, the, I think 210 00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:48,680 to do it all the time. Did they say they disagreed? 211 00:11:48,690 --> 00:11:50,880 With you. No, that that would have been 212 00:11:50,890 --> 00:11:52,010 awesome. Like that would have been great. 213 00:11:52,020 --> 00:11:53,500 And I'm waiting. You know, those are fun 214 00:11:53,510 --> 00:11:57,520 conversations, but no, this person is so, you know, I was in 215 00:11:57,530 --> 00:11:58,870 the kitchen. We were kind of packing up some 216 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,070 of the stuff from communion and somebody came up to me and said, 217 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,170 hey, I still don't like, I get this and I get this and I get 218 00:12:04,180 --> 00:12:06,040 this. I still don't understand this 219 00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:08,570 one point. What's this one line here? 220 00:12:08,750 --> 00:12:15,200 And it interestingly was actually a line about community. 221 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,790 It was the line about friends. And this person was just, I love 222 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,250 that this person was able to say, hey, I, I get this, I get 223 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:22,990 this. I still don't get this one 224 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,570 piece. And so we had a great 225 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:27,050 conversation and it wasn't long and it wasn't me just saying, 226 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:29,310 well, it's this, let's move on with our day. 227 00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:32,810 It, it was just a quick, short, but meaningful exchange. 228 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,050 And at the end it was like, oh, yeah, this is it. 229 00:12:35,060 --> 00:12:38,390 Of course, this is it, but we got there in conversation 230 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,270 together, and that's the invitation of difficult passages 231 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,390 that we'd rather skip. If I'm left on my own, it's like 232 00:12:46,460 --> 00:12:48,610 you just easily skip over it and not think twice. 233 00:12:48,620 --> 00:12:51,270 I'm gonna go read something else that's better and easier and 234 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,670 make me feel happy about myself. But it's when we get to passages 235 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,010 like this that we need to feel and need to wrestle with and 236 00:12:57,020 --> 00:12:58,760 need to be challenged by community. 237 00:12:58,770 --> 00:13:01,490 Like holds you there in the passage. 238 00:13:01,580 --> 00:13:04,990 Well, and even at A, at a very practical level, you know, going 239 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,700 back to our, our preaching planning meeting, you were 240 00:13:09,710 --> 00:13:11,600 toying with an idea. I hope it's OK. 241 00:13:11,610 --> 00:13:12,570 Yeah. OK, cool. 242 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:14,360 Yeah. You were toying with the idea 243 00:13:14,370 --> 00:13:18,260 of, of bringing in not just this parable, but the following 244 00:13:18,270 --> 00:13:20,660 parable, which you're gonna be preaching from this Sunday. 245 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:25,640 And Allison and I were both like, I'm not, I'm not sure you 246 00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:27,860 want to do that. You know, like, and not in like 247 00:13:27,870 --> 00:13:29,810 obviously we have a good trust amongst each other. 248 00:13:29,820 --> 00:13:32,520 And it was a it was a a healthy conversation. 249 00:13:32,630 --> 00:13:35,260 There was, it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like harsh 250 00:13:35,270 --> 00:13:37,920 pushback. It was just like, oh, like 251 00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:40,430 that's a lot to, you know, that's a lot to handle. 252 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:41,380 Are you gonna be able to do that? 253 00:13:41,390 --> 00:13:43,890 Are you gonna give these passages the full weight and 254 00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:45,240 justice they deserve? Right. 255 00:13:45,250 --> 00:13:50,710 And and and clearly, based on, you know, where you went, we you 256 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,150 persuaded yourself or some mixture of of all of the things 257 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,830 or but like you did, you did it and I think it was the right 258 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,330 call like to stick with the one and and to dive a little deeper 259 00:14:00,340 --> 00:14:02,580 into it. I still, I joke with you and 260 00:14:02,590 --> 00:14:04,910 Allison in those meetings, like I'm still waiting for one of you 261 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,190 to say, no, that's not it, you're wrong. 262 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,670 Like I'm still waiting for that moment to happen where, you 263 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:14,620 know, a in, in an outline or in a point or instantly say, you 264 00:14:14,630 --> 00:14:17,340 know, Nope, that's not it. You've lost it. 265 00:14:17,410 --> 00:14:18,900 I'm still waiting for that moment. 266 00:14:18,980 --> 00:14:21,000 And it'll be fun when it happens because it will. 267 00:14:21,050 --> 00:14:24,420 But yeah, it, it was, it really was, it was a great, I think it 268 00:14:24,430 --> 00:14:28,840 was a great conversation where I, I had one outline sort of 269 00:14:29,390 --> 00:14:33,740 applauded out and, you know, was starting in the middle and then 270 00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:38,780 work both in both directions dealing with both the parables. 271 00:14:38,850 --> 00:14:41,530 And what we ended up doing was starting in the middle and 272 00:14:41,540 --> 00:14:43,490 moving backwards toward the first parable. 273 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:45,280 And and this coming Sunday, we're gonna start in the middle. 274 00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:47,320 We're gonna work forward toward the next parable. 275 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,570 And that outline didn't change. But yeah, you, you both were 276 00:14:51,580 --> 00:14:53,870 able to say, hey, like, that's that's a lot. 277 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,030 That's a lot to deal with. We've got communion. 278 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,430 And I did, you know, I walked away going. 279 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,130 Yeah. I wasn't fully certain still 280 00:15:01,140 --> 00:15:03,350 whether it was going to be one or two when we left that 281 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,030 meeting. But as I started writing, it was 282 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,220 it was became very clear like, no, there's too much here. 283 00:15:09,370 --> 00:15:11,290 You know, those guys are right. There's too much here. 284 00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:13,310 Just listen and be done with it and. 285 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,910 Perhaps a little bit of divine Providence, since there was also 286 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,370 some illness that had befallen your, you and your family that 287 00:15:20,930 --> 00:15:26,500 that that I think would have put pressure on seriously, they'll 288 00:15:26,510 --> 00:15:31,600 put pressure on trying to make something cohesive out of the 289 00:15:31,610 --> 00:15:33,560 whole package. Right, for sure, yeah, 290 00:15:33,610 --> 00:15:37,220 absolutely, absolutely. So in in community, it has to be 291 00:15:37,230 --> 00:15:39,680 the way we do it. And and please again, I want to 292 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:43,580 say this, you need to spend your personal alone time with 293 00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:47,100 Scripture, in prayer with God. You need to allow God to 294 00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:50,680 challenge you as an individual. Please hear that. 295 00:15:50,810 --> 00:15:53,740 But I do think that there's something so significant about 296 00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:58,620 community that happens when we vessel out difficult texts like 297 00:15:58,630 --> 00:16:02,230 this together for exactly some of these reasons. 298 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:05,650 And one of the other pieces of that that I think is just worth 299 00:16:05,660 --> 00:16:10,170 naming is that because we can do this in community, you know, 300 00:16:10,180 --> 00:16:13,640 through Bible studies or through things like, you know, obviously 301 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,450 our situation with sermon prep is a bit unique to us 302 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,950 specifically. But for others in small groups 303 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,190 or when we do like community Bible studies and things like 304 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,000 that. But also when you are 305 00:16:26,010 --> 00:16:29,670 individually reading, like there's also a wealth of, of 306 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:35,010 people from Christian history from like thinkers and 307 00:16:35,020 --> 00:16:38,790 theologians and scholars and commentaries. 308 00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:47,510 And like there is so much material out there that can help 309 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,810 us understand better. Almost at the point where we 310 00:16:50,820 --> 00:16:52,480 gotta be careful because we gotta know that what we're 311 00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:56,340 looking at is going to be a, a healthy and helpful and, and 312 00:16:56,650 --> 00:17:00,460 thoughtful resource versus just like something that is maybe 313 00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:03,080 potentially even dangerous or heretical or whatever. 314 00:17:03,710 --> 00:17:06,260 So that's again, where I think community can help with the, the 315 00:17:06,270 --> 00:17:09,619 discernment process there. But just in general, like when 316 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:13,290 we're wrestling with a passage and we don't know where to go 317 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:15,339 with it, we don't know what we're supposed to learn from it. 318 00:17:16,290 --> 00:17:19,210 Like, I think even you said one of the, you know, one of the 319 00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:23,349 main threads from all of the commentaries you read from this 320 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,670 passage was like, yeah, it, it, it seems a little bit unfair 321 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,310 with the way the shrewd manager has dealt with deal with it. 322 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,140 You know, like that was, that was one of the the common 323 00:17:31,150 --> 00:17:32,310 threads that you had pulled away. 324 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:33,450 Yeah. And it's like, OK, well, that's, 325 00:17:33,460 --> 00:17:35,350 that's interesting to pay attention to that. 326 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,850 There are multiple theologians, serious heavyweight kind of 327 00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:41,750 people that are like, hey, this is probably one of the things we 328 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,710 need to glean from this is like, life's not fair sometimes. 329 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,850 That's one of the hardest things about this this parable and just 330 00:17:47,860 --> 00:17:53,240 to name it right, is the fact that this shrewd manager who is 331 00:17:53,290 --> 00:17:58,880 soon to be fired because of probably like unethical or at 332 00:17:58,890 --> 00:18:06,700 very least like delinquent work habits, is praised by his 333 00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:11,440 manager for his shrewdness, but not not only for his shrewdness 334 00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:16,780 in in it feels like for acting in further unethical ways. 335 00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:21,240 You know, he's he's overly generous, but did he have the 336 00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:24,190 authority to do the thing? You know, some say yes and some 337 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,850 say no and some argue about what actually he's doing and who he's 338 00:18:27,860 --> 00:18:29,200 cheating. Some people say he's cheating 339 00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:32,040 himself. You know that what he cuts out 340 00:18:32,050 --> 00:18:35,150 of there, out of their bill would be actually like the 341 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,820 managers percentage that he would be entitled to. 342 00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:41,740 But that's like, you know, most people disagree that that like 343 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:45,370 50% is not like that's not the kind of realm of percentages 344 00:18:45,380 --> 00:18:47,060 that they would have been dealing with calculation. 345 00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:48,700 Absolutely. A lot of speculation. 346 00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:51,520 So, you know, it really is a passage where we see Jesus. 347 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,630 And I think I said it, it's like if if it's hard for us because 348 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,030 it feels like Jesus is praising this, this manager for an 349 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,490 unethical practice. And he is. 350 00:19:03,860 --> 00:19:05,800 And that is what the commentaries say, like most of 351 00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:09,690 the commentaries basically say literally deal with it. 352 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,680 One of them said literally deal with it. 353 00:19:12,490 --> 00:19:16,140 And you know, a few others are are essentially like we, we 354 00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:18,020 wrestle this out. It's just attention that's 355 00:19:18,030 --> 00:19:19,740 there. You can't, you can't resolve it. 356 00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:23,760 You can't make it feel good. You can't, you know, explain it 357 00:19:23,770 --> 00:19:26,680 away. It in fact, it loses its meaning 358 00:19:26,690 --> 00:19:28,780 when you do try to explain it away. 359 00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:31,340 And that's the beautiful thing about parables. 360 00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:33,650 And that's why I think parables were always so here's the thing 361 00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:35,490 about parables. Parables were always meant to be 362 00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,980 experienced in community. Jesus never tells a parable to 363 00:19:38,990 --> 00:19:40,760 one person. Yeah. 364 00:19:40,770 --> 00:19:43,360 And I need to like Fact Check me on that one because that's, 365 00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:49,210 that's like I don't have like a, you know, I'm not 100 and 10% 366 00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:50,870 certain on it. But it's either usually his 367 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,390 disciples, his followers more broadly, or the Pharisees. 368 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,350 It's the disciples. The crowds are the Pharisees. 369 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,720 Yeah, it is always community. And he tells it like they're not 370 00:20:00,730 --> 00:20:02,290 resolved. Jesus. 371 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,070 There's barely a parable that Jesus explains right in its 372 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,780 entirety. But sometimes they go after him 373 00:20:07,790 --> 00:20:09,880 and like Jesus, can you? Explain about this or this. 374 00:20:09,890 --> 00:20:11,510 Yeah. And and that's like that's the 375 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,530 whole point of a parable is to encourage your participation in 376 00:20:14,540 --> 00:20:18,010 it and for it to be something that's wrestled out together, 377 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,920 which just he's not telling parables just to communicate, 378 00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:24,980 you know, a three-point truths that everybody can walk away 379 00:20:24,990 --> 00:20:26,020 with. Be like, well, we all heard the 380 00:20:26,030 --> 00:20:26,730 same thing. Great. 381 00:20:26,740 --> 00:20:29,010 Like, no, he would have, he would have given lists of 382 00:20:29,020 --> 00:20:33,290 things, you know, like parables are meant to be. 383 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,640 They're meant to hold tensions. They're meant to be hard. 384 00:20:35,650 --> 00:20:38,050 They're meant to have these aha moments that flip everything 385 00:20:38,060 --> 00:20:39,970 upside down. Like, I thought this was the 386 00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:43,490 direction we're going. And now it's just so upside down 387 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:46,470 or right side up, however you wanna, you know, describe it. 388 00:20:46,530 --> 00:20:50,060 That it it has to be done. It has to be done inside a 389 00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:52,650 community. And community is going to be the 390 00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:55,410 ones to say to you those things like, yes, it's attention, deal 391 00:20:55,420 --> 00:20:57,240 with it. It's just there. 392 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:00,920 And in fact, it loses its weight if you explain it away. 393 00:21:02,070 --> 00:21:04,660 Even this guy gets it. How much more? 394 00:21:04,670 --> 00:21:07,300 That's the implication for us. Should we also get it? 395 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:12,090 Yeah, and, and so like even even within that, there's something 396 00:21:12,430 --> 00:21:16,960 uncomfortable for us of just like some, some parts of 397 00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:20,420 Scripture, this one included the, the full scope and meaning 398 00:21:20,430 --> 00:21:23,150 of it. We may never fully know all the 399 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,070 answers to. And as I, you know, I would say 400 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,070 in my early 20s, that was a real challenge for me. 401 00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:33,630 I remember like wrestling through some things and like, I 402 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,430 think it was particularly in the Gospel of John that I was like 403 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,310 struggling to reconcile with like, you know, what certain 404 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,830 scholars thought and said. And, and, and it was like this 405 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,650 existential crisis of, of like, hey, I'm, I'm, I don't know what 406 00:21:47,660 --> 00:21:50,350 to think and believe. I remember wrestling through as 407 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,770 one of my friends, like leaned more into like Reformed 408 00:21:53,780 --> 00:21:58,140 Calvinist theology and I and I was never raised in that and I'm 409 00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:00,620 ironically now working at a Presbyterian Church. 410 00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:05,580 But like, and, and, and had like deep existential crises over 411 00:22:05,630 --> 00:22:09,840 certain aspects of, of, you know, that understanding of, of 412 00:22:09,850 --> 00:22:15,070 faith as I've gotten older. I'm, I'm turning 40 next month, 413 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,870 which, you know, I feel like, you know, some, some of the 414 00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:20,370 elders in the church would probably be like, you're still a 415 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:20,980 baby. You're. 416 00:22:20,990 --> 00:22:25,630 Halfway to 80. Right, but but like, I think for 417 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:31,130 me, one thing in my in my mid life, if I can call it that, it 418 00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:34,730 feels dramatic. But like, I've, I'm learning to 419 00:22:34,740 --> 00:22:39,690 like, just be OK and just like lean into like certain elements 420 00:22:39,700 --> 00:22:42,770 of like mystery and not like a cop out way. 421 00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:45,050 Like there are times of like, I know, I, I wanna know the answer 422 00:22:45,060 --> 00:22:47,980 to this, like this, this is dissatisfying and I and I might 423 00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:51,240 not find the answer, but sometimes there are answers. 424 00:22:51,390 --> 00:22:54,160 Sometimes genuinely, truly, there are answers to some of our 425 00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:57,080 questions that we can find through study and further 426 00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:59,500 research. Sometimes there's not right. 427 00:22:59,510 --> 00:23:04,840 And, and just for me, as I, as I grow, just learning to like let 428 00:23:04,850 --> 00:23:06,370 it kind of roll off my shoulder a little bit. 429 00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:09,800 You like, you know what? I know the most important things 430 00:23:09,810 --> 00:23:13,320 that I believe and the most important things that I hold on 431 00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:17,310 to and cling to, and the full meaning of the the parallel of 432 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,580 the shrewd manager isn't the top of that list. 433 00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:21,890 Isn't one of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 434 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:23,330 yeah. I love the way Paul puts it 435 00:23:23,340 --> 00:23:25,230 right. He's like we know now in part 436 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:28,590 and we see in part and he's got this beautiful vision for like. 437 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,310 But then we will know fully and be known fully and see fully and 438 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,720 be seen fully like he's got this, this, this great, you 439 00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:41,110 know, analogy that you think about ripples in the water where 440 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:44,590 you see a reflection that is partially distorted. 441 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,240 And you know, I think that's the challenge for for human beings, 442 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:51,820 I think especially that's the challenge for followers of Jesus 443 00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:56,380 is, is to live in that reality. And, and we are less good at it 444 00:23:56,490 --> 00:24:01,600 in our earlier years for sure, And hopefully with time become 445 00:24:01,610 --> 00:24:04,560 better at it, but don't always. And so I think there needs to be 446 00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:06,200 like there needs to be a conscious effort. 447 00:24:06,210 --> 00:24:11,040 And I'm going to forget the, the philosopher, um, who talks about 448 00:24:11,050 --> 00:24:14,390 this, but like, anyway, stages of faith, there's different 449 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,290 language for it, stages of spiritual development, there's 450 00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:19,410 different languages and different writers. 451 00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:22,600 And that's totally fine. But one of the ways that I've 452 00:24:22,610 --> 00:24:25,270 heard it talked about that has been helpful is that, you know, 453 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,830 in our, in our early years, we grew up with, you know, this, 454 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:34,750 this naivety. And then we go through seasons 455 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,510 of, of difficulty and deconstruction and questioning 456 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,120 and wondering. And that can lead you down a 457 00:24:43,130 --> 00:24:44,420 couple of different paths for sure. 458 00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:46,100 I think as Christians, like, we're free of that word, like 459 00:24:46,110 --> 00:24:49,110 deconstruction. Oh no, we can be afraid of it in 460 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,730 unhealthy, unhealthy ways. I think every person needs to go 461 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:57,130 through that season of asking difficult questions of 462 00:24:57,140 --> 00:25:01,370 themselves, of their faith, of God, of the Church, of reality, 463 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,400 of the world, of what's after it. 464 00:25:03,410 --> 00:25:04,520 I. Don't know how you can have a 465 00:25:04,530 --> 00:25:07,040 deep faith without some of that. Right. 466 00:25:07,050 --> 00:25:09,360 So, so, and, and I want to come back to that point. 467 00:25:09,370 --> 00:25:12,610 So you go through this, this first naivety and then you go 468 00:25:12,620 --> 00:25:15,040 through this season of wonder and deconstruction and 469 00:25:15,050 --> 00:25:19,900 questioning and exploring and, and I see it as this like 470 00:25:19,910 --> 00:25:22,620 incredible opportunity. I think some people become 471 00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:25,120 scared and that's fine. Those are different reactions to 472 00:25:25,130 --> 00:25:29,000 the same thing. But then we come to this like 473 00:25:29,270 --> 00:25:34,470 second naivety. So another way of talking about 474 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,640 it is there's a like, there's an enchantment about faith as a 475 00:25:39,650 --> 00:25:41,820 child. And it's like, why do we tell 476 00:25:41,830 --> 00:25:45,430 the stories literally? Like exactly as why do we tell 477 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,620 us, you know, kids, the stories in the Old Testament as, as 478 00:25:49,630 --> 00:25:53,120 literal historical, like this happened and how amazing is 479 00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:54,940 that? And, and, and now I want to be 480 00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:57,840 careful because within the Old Testament, there's a ton of 481 00:25:57,850 --> 00:26:01,480 different genre happening. And you and I can have that 482 00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:04,210 conversation. We know even within our 483 00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:06,580 congregation, there's different, there's different thoughts and 484 00:26:06,590 --> 00:26:10,910 approaches to the like literal approaches to scripture and 485 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,750 stories within it. So I'll just use one that is 486 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,140 debated. And I'm just saying that it's 487 00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:16,520 debated. I'm not saying where I stand on 488 00:26:16,530 --> 00:26:17,840 it and I'm not saying where you stand on it. 489 00:26:17,850 --> 00:26:20,210 The walls of Jericho. So Joshua and the walls of 490 00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:23,770 Jericho marched around the walls, you know, blowing horns. 491 00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:27,150 Those walls come tumbling down. Well, some people say that that 492 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,220 happened literally exactly as it's written in Scripture. 493 00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:31,110 And other people say, well, there's no evidence of walls 494 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:32,830 around Jericho. And then other people say, no, 495 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,580 there's no evidence ground walls that were around Jericho that 496 00:26:35,590 --> 00:26:37,860 did fall around the top. Like, like there's there's, 497 00:26:37,870 --> 00:26:40,650 there's competing evidence. We're still learning and 498 00:26:40,660 --> 00:26:43,640 exploring in the archaeological record is difficult and hard to 499 00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:45,260 understand. And we're a long way out from 500 00:26:45,270 --> 00:26:46,830 it. But that's, I just named that as 501 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,680 one. But when we're teaching kids 502 00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:51,930 about it, we don't go into, hey, you know, some people believe 503 00:26:51,940 --> 00:26:53,390 this happened and some people don't believe that this 504 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:54,760 happened. And like some archaeology 505 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,520 archaeologists say that there are walls and they did fall, and 506 00:26:57,530 --> 00:26:59,920 other archaeology archaeologists say that there weren't. 507 00:26:59,930 --> 00:27:02,440 There's like some theologians that that think that passage in 508 00:27:02,450 --> 00:27:06,180 particular or that book book of Joshua was like basically like 509 00:27:06,450 --> 00:27:10,200 war propaganda, right? Try to explain that to a nine 510 00:27:10,210 --> 00:27:11,570 year old, No. What do we do? 511 00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:15,940 We teach them that Joshua led the people to walk around 512 00:27:15,950 --> 00:27:18,660 Jericho and they blew their horns and those walls came 513 00:27:18,670 --> 00:27:20,700 tumbling down. And how amazing is it to see 514 00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:24,410 what God does to his like for his people when they worship and 515 00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:27,320 when they respond in obedience and right. 516 00:27:27,330 --> 00:27:32,840 So we we grow up and and you know, ideally and hopefully you 517 00:27:32,850 --> 00:27:35,670 come out of childhood with this enchanted faith. 518 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,100 This is another way to talk about it. 519 00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:43,960 So you, you have this wonder filled vision of what God can do 520 00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:47,520 inside of the world. Well, that enchanted needs to be 521 00:27:48,410 --> 00:27:52,240 taken through seasons that are difficult and that do allow you 522 00:27:52,250 --> 00:27:55,470 to ask questions and express doubts and curiosities. 523 00:27:56,550 --> 00:28:00,840 We go from enchantment to disenchantment, but you can't 524 00:28:00,850 --> 00:28:03,960 stay at disenchantment because disenchantment is cynicism and 525 00:28:03,970 --> 00:28:07,920 it can lead to bitterness and resentment and you need to move 526 00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:10,500 through. Hopefully we encourage people to 527 00:28:10,510 --> 00:28:13,320 move from disenchantment to re enchantment. 528 00:28:13,790 --> 00:28:16,980 And that's the place where we sit with the complexity and the 529 00:28:16,990 --> 00:28:21,200 tension of passages like this or those walls around Jericho and 530 00:28:21,210 --> 00:28:24,680 go, Could it have happened? Yeah, definitely could have 531 00:28:24,690 --> 00:28:27,140 happened. And what is God trying to say to 532 00:28:27,150 --> 00:28:32,690 us in the midst of that tension, whether it did or didn't in the 533 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:36,450 exact way that it happened in in Scripture? 534 00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:40,980 So for me, I just want to say this one thing, the one, the one 535 00:28:40,990 --> 00:28:43,960 place that I trace my faith back to in all of these conversations 536 00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:46,480 is the resurrection of Jesus. So we're just on the heels of 537 00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:51,950 Easter. Jesus body literally raised from 538 00:28:52,020 --> 00:28:54,350 the dead. Not a figurative resurrection, 539 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,970 not like an emotional spiritual resurrection. 540 00:28:55,980 --> 00:28:58,250 Not a spiritual body. Not a floating ghost movement 541 00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:01,050 like physical body raised from the dead. 542 00:29:01,930 --> 00:29:06,340 That is the one nonnegotiable for me for Christianity. 543 00:29:06,350 --> 00:29:08,540 And for the majority? For the, absolutely. 544 00:29:08,550 --> 00:29:11,600 Some that would say no, but I they're allowed to be wrong. 545 00:29:11,650 --> 00:29:15,020 Exactly. For me, that's the so if that 546 00:29:15,030 --> 00:29:18,860 happened, everything else inside of Scripture is possible. 547 00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:22,090 And so you go, OK, if Jesus's body was literally raised from 548 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:24,420 the dead, then I go, it's game on. 549 00:29:24,650 --> 00:29:30,170 Anything and everything is possible, but the way we 550 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:33,030 approach those tensions can change. 551 00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:34,010 Yeah. And that's that. 552 00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:37,160 Like that's that re enchantment of faith where it's like, 553 00:29:37,170 --> 00:29:42,050 imagine what could be possible. Yeah, imagine what God can do. 554 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,170 So, so enchantment, disenchantment, re enchantment, 555 00:29:46,220 --> 00:29:50,690 naivete to like second naivete and the however you want to 556 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:55,990 describe that trajectory, that's the, the life of discipleship is 557 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,500 from here to there. Um, and that's what we're 558 00:30:00,510 --> 00:30:02,440 invited into. That only happens in community 559 00:30:02,450 --> 00:30:03,860 though. Yeah, I agree. 560 00:30:03,950 --> 00:30:06,200 Agree. And just using that language 561 00:30:06,210 --> 00:30:11,710 around reenactment, like I think what happens when you are 562 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,230 disenchanted versus say, re enchanted with with with 563 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,770 scripture is when you're disenchanted, you'll look at a 564 00:30:17,780 --> 00:30:20,610 passage like this and and you'll see it, you know, through the 565 00:30:20,620 --> 00:30:23,910 well, this this manager, he didn't deserve to be, you know, 566 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,720 praised like this, this, this, this sucks, this is stupid. 567 00:30:26,730 --> 00:30:28,330 This is like, what's even the point? 568 00:30:28,340 --> 00:30:32,510 And you can get down this like sin as cynical sort of unhealthy 569 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,340 route versus you know, I feel like we enchantment should 570 00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:40,190 provoke just like a lot of questions and curiosity 571 00:30:40,270 --> 00:30:43,190 excitement about like, OK, what what's what's God doing here? 572 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,180 What's God saying here? Right. 573 00:30:45,380 --> 00:30:48,400 So re enchantment, re enchantment sees yourself as 574 00:30:48,410 --> 00:30:51,660 that manager, right? Or at least very least allows 575 00:30:51,670 --> 00:30:56,680 the manager to hold a mirror. Up to you to say, man, this dude 576 00:30:56,730 --> 00:30:59,740 is a mixture of selfishness and generosity. 577 00:30:59,810 --> 00:31:01,820 And you know what? At the end of the day, so am I 578 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,870 and So what? Why like, if there's nothing 579 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,450 praiseworthy about him, why should there be anything 580 00:31:08,460 --> 00:31:09,990 praiseworthy about me? Now, at the end of the day, is 581 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,250 there anything praiseworthy about any of us? 582 00:31:11,260 --> 00:31:14,070 Like we can go down that rabbit trail of, of, of depressing 583 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,940 Calvinism and, and we don't have to do that today. 584 00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:20,220 Like Total Depravity is a different podcast episode and 585 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,880 but like, you know, I think the rein chanted faith allows 586 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:31,130 yourself to see some of these complexities not only in the 587 00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:35,110 people in scripture, so in this manager, but in yourself as well 588 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,710 and go, oh, OK, so this dude mixture of selfishness and 589 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,050 generosity must mean I know, like I know I'm a mixture of 590 00:31:43,060 --> 00:31:48,600 selfish and generous, intense. I love to be generous and I 591 00:31:48,610 --> 00:31:53,390 fight being selfish and you know, like that's attention that 592 00:31:53,460 --> 00:31:56,990 that Jesus is resolving in me and I think wants to resolve 593 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,770 hopefully to greater degrees in all of us. 594 00:31:59,780 --> 00:32:01,690 But it's gonna be around forever. 595 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,950 Like that's, that's part of humanity, part of the human 596 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,130 nature. Well, you've already let me to 597 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,630 cough drops today that I won't give back to you, so you're 598 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,690 already on a good footing on a Monday morning for your 599 00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:14,530 generosity. So perfect. 600 00:32:14,540 --> 00:32:16,570 I appreciate 3 actually. You know what? 601 00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:18,420 You're right. Three but. 602 00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:22,020 You. You're gonna make me cough? 603 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:22,710 No. Don't. 604 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,710 Please don't. There. 605 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,850 Yeah. So that was like a beautiful 606 00:32:27,860 --> 00:32:30,630 like just segue into kind of just the last thing I wanted to 607 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:36,760 touch on was was this idea of like, yeah, OK, so that raises. 608 00:32:36,770 --> 00:32:42,060 I'm just as I'm thinking aloud here, when we are seeing 609 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,320 scripture through that like re enchanted lens through that, 610 00:32:46,330 --> 00:32:49,200 that like, you know, we're just asking, we're asking questions 611 00:32:49,250 --> 00:32:51,120 for, you know, what could this mean? 612 00:32:51,630 --> 00:32:53,980 Then it shifts to you, what what could this mean for me? 613 00:32:54,050 --> 00:32:57,880 And then and then you're actually willing to do that hard 614 00:32:57,890 --> 00:33:01,220 work of, of looking in the mirror and saying, OK, that's 615 00:33:01,230 --> 00:33:03,750 me. What do I need? 616 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,280 What do I need to address? Yeah. 617 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,010 You know, and, and as you were, as you were preaching and kind 618 00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:12,600 of going through this example of particularly the shrewd manager, 619 00:33:13,540 --> 00:33:17,870 I started thinking about examples in my own life where I 620 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,850 was like, man, I did something that was outwardly altruistic, 621 00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:28,180 but inwardly I it was gonna help me get what I wanted. 622 00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:33,970 Yeah. And I, I felt that like I, I, I 623 00:33:33,980 --> 00:33:40,370 was, I was grappling with that reality of my dualistic nature. 624 00:33:41,020 --> 00:33:48,100 And that is, I wasn't going to solve it that that's gonna be a 625 00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:52,320 that's something that we, I and we carry with us to the end of 626 00:33:52,330 --> 00:33:55,120 our lives. And hopefully we make forward 627 00:33:55,130 --> 00:34:01,980 progress as we lean into, you know, God forming us and 628 00:34:01,990 --> 00:34:04,380 community forming us and all these things. 629 00:34:04,750 --> 00:34:09,340 But it just, yeah, that confronted me and, and I, I hope 630 00:34:09,409 --> 00:34:12,400 I think in a good way because I didn't feel this like, I think I 631 00:34:12,409 --> 00:34:15,139 didn't feel this like deep, like condemnation. 632 00:34:15,150 --> 00:34:18,219 It was more like, oh, oh, yeah, that that's me. 633 00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:23,790 That's me guilty, you know, and I hope for others as well like 634 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,420 that, that is the, the, the right approach wouldn't be 635 00:34:27,489 --> 00:34:31,719 toward like this heaping, heaping self condemnation and 636 00:34:31,730 --> 00:34:37,469 and shame and all these things, but rather, oh, OK, I need to 637 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,920 lean into that. I need to, I need to listen to 638 00:34:39,969 --> 00:34:44,840 that and say ask myself some hard questions and maybe ask my 639 00:34:44,909 --> 00:34:47,800 family and friends some hard questions about me. 640 00:34:47,860 --> 00:34:50,239 Yeah, So I just want to name a couple things. 641 00:34:50,250 --> 00:34:52,739 So like, I love, I love that you share that because that's 642 00:34:52,750 --> 00:34:54,949 exactly what we hope for. I think when we're preaching and 643 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:56,850 sometimes, like sometimes you're preaching and it's you're 644 00:34:56,860 --> 00:34:59,040 preaching yourself, right? It's like, Oh yeah. 645 00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:02,200 Why is why did this message land your end up the way it did? 646 00:35:02,210 --> 00:35:05,860 Is because it like God's working some real things out in our 647 00:35:05,870 --> 00:35:08,220 lives that eventually work their way into sermons. 648 00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:11,460 Not probably in real time, because that's, you know, an 649 00:35:11,470 --> 00:35:15,690 unhealthier view of. Everything I learned this week 650 00:35:15,700 --> 00:35:17,520 that I'm going to preach to you exactly. 651 00:35:17,570 --> 00:35:18,780 Exactly. Here's the thing. 652 00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:21,230 That's still this big open gaping thing, right? 653 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:26,360 Like, yeah, no, not that. But you know, 11 of, well, 654 00:35:26,370 --> 00:35:29,520 someone I respect says scars, not wounds, like not open 655 00:35:29,530 --> 00:35:33,300 wounds, but scars. And so I, you know, I like that 656 00:35:33,310 --> 00:35:36,160 language, but I, I just want to name a couple of things. 657 00:35:36,170 --> 00:35:40,600 One, I, I love that you're, you're sharing this here in this 658 00:35:40,610 --> 00:35:43,500 forum because it's exactly what we want people wrestling out in 659 00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:45,130 their own lives. Like for me and my life, you and 660 00:35:45,140 --> 00:35:48,560 your life and for everyone in the congregation is to feel 661 00:35:48,570 --> 00:35:52,180 that, that tension and go, oh, I'm going to sit here. 662 00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:54,980 I'm not going to ignore it. I'm not going to push it away. 663 00:35:55,070 --> 00:35:58,640 I'm not going to numb it or distract myself away from it 664 00:35:58,650 --> 00:36:01,210 like we are so good at doing. I'm going to sit in it. 665 00:36:01,220 --> 00:36:03,330 I'm going to feel it. I'm going to name it, you name 666 00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:07,310 it like naming the thing the church is called for generations 667 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,860 confession. And I think we've lost that 668 00:36:09,870 --> 00:36:12,780 rhythm in that habit of just now listen, like we're not gonna put 669 00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:15,210 up a confessional in the in the in the sanctuary at the back of 670 00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:17,270 the sanctuary and have like a curtain and you can come and sit 671 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,530 and confess your sins. But there's something just 672 00:36:19,540 --> 00:36:21,950 profound and beautiful about being able to say, hey, that was 673 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,610 something that I wrestled with and I'm still wrestling with 674 00:36:25,820 --> 00:36:27,890 and. Tells you can ask me about it. 675 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,570 And, and, and to say you, you took that a step further, which 676 00:36:32,580 --> 00:36:33,820 is OK. Now I'm going to have 677 00:36:33,830 --> 00:36:35,280 conversations with my family and friends. 678 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,880 So now no longer are you confessing this. 679 00:36:38,890 --> 00:36:40,850 It's just, you know, you and God, yet God, you're doing 680 00:36:40,860 --> 00:36:42,570 something in my life and I need to name this thing. 681 00:36:42,580 --> 00:36:44,690 And I know that you're, you're tapping into something here. 682 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:48,810 That's, that's really, you know, impacting me. 683 00:36:48,860 --> 00:36:51,170 Now you're including a small group of people with it. 684 00:36:51,660 --> 00:36:54,590 And what you're not doing is like, hey, podcast listeners, 685 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,980 this is the thing, right? Like that's not what you're 686 00:36:56,990 --> 00:37:00,210 doing, but what you're naming a process for people that is just 687 00:37:00,220 --> 00:37:03,950 so helpful in, in terms of dealing with the tension. 688 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:05,920 Because again, there are a couple different there many 689 00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:08,860 different ways we can deal with it, but there are two principal 690 00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:11,460 ways. One, we can feel it and then do 691 00:37:11,470 --> 00:37:15,060 everything we can to ignore it or to we can feel it and do 692 00:37:15,070 --> 00:37:20,890 everything we can to understand and, you know, and move forward 693 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,430 in it and through it and because of it. 694 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,770 And, and I think you've laid out a really good, just a really 695 00:37:24,780 --> 00:37:28,600 good simple process for people. So like, feel it, sit with it, 696 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,770 name it, name it to somebody else and go like that's the 697 00:37:32,850 --> 00:37:37,410 Christian sort of Arc of confession that has been around 698 00:37:37,420 --> 00:37:40,630 for a lot longer than any of us. So and, and lots of other, lots 699 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,300 of other like spheres of, of the world have also caught on to 700 00:37:44,310 --> 00:37:45,610 that. I know that like something like 701 00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:49,350 Alcoholics Anonymous, which has a lot of Christian roots in it, 702 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,810 one of their one of their main steps, and it's also been 703 00:37:52,820 --> 00:37:55,370 borrowed by like Christian programs like Celebrate Recovery 704 00:37:55,420 --> 00:38:00,150 is to admit to God and to someone else the exact nature of 705 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,740 your wrongs. And it's like, boom. 706 00:38:02,790 --> 00:38:05,440 To just to say it, you have to say it as it is. 707 00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:07,160 Yeah. And to say it not without 708 00:38:07,170 --> 00:38:08,410 emotion, but almost without emotion. 709 00:38:08,420 --> 00:38:09,960 It's like no this. Is what I did. 710 00:38:10,010 --> 00:38:16,630 This is it, yeah. So, yeah, we hope that this has 711 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,980 been a helpful conversation. I think this is a great place to 712 00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:19,970 end. Yeah. 713 00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:22,310 To encourage you to sit with the attention and to encourage you 714 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,010 to sit maybe even in the attention of needing to name 715 00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:29,950 something and wrestling out what that next step might be. 716 00:38:30,740 --> 00:38:34,210 So again, wherever this episode finds you, we hope that you are 717 00:38:34,220 --> 00:38:37,230 encouraged, and we hope that you're challenged to live a 718 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,640 little bit differently between Sundays. 719 00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:44,070 So again, we hope to see you on Sunday and in other areas of our 720 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,820 church life, and then again next week for another. 721 00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:47,790 So do the podcast.