1 00:00:01,640 --> 00:00:05,670 Hey, welcome to the Sunday sit down where it's not Sunday, but 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,570 we are sitting down and I'm here with Pastor Grant back after a 3 00:00:10,580 --> 00:00:12,890 few weeks away. And we're looking forward to 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,030 going a little deeper into this past week where we explored the 5 00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:20,990 transfiguration from Luke Chapter 9. 6 00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:24,460 And this is like, it's a it's a bit of an odd story in some 7 00:00:24,470 --> 00:00:25,790 ways. I know that like, you know, we 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,400 grew up. If you grew up in church, you 9 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:30,040 would have grown up listening to this story and reading about 10 00:00:30,050 --> 00:00:32,650 this story and learning about this story. 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,650 But like when you sit back, it is a little odd. 12 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,030 It is, yeah. Yeah. 13 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,710 Can I just say it's great to be back, though. 14 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,330 Like, it's so much fun to be back. 15 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:44,150 We've taken too many tries getting this podcast started, 16 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:47,930 which has been wonderful. Like it's great to be back in 17 00:00:47,980 --> 00:00:53,880 into the regular weekly flow of things, minus a vacation day 18 00:00:53,890 --> 00:00:56,430 yesterday or a holiday for all of us. 19 00:00:56,700 --> 00:01:01,450 But yes, transfiguration, it is a little bit strange, which 20 00:01:01,460 --> 00:01:05,480 oddly didn't mention this explicitly in the sermon. 21 00:01:05,489 --> 00:01:10,000 I think Luke kind of picks up on because he doesn't actually use 22 00:01:10,010 --> 00:01:13,200 the word transfiguration, which I did mention. 23 00:01:13,210 --> 00:01:17,400 So like in Luke's account, as opposed to Matthew and Mark, 24 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:21,680 when they tell the story, Matthew and Mark both use that 25 00:01:21,730 --> 00:01:24,760 Greek word, which is the, you know, where we get the word 26 00:01:24,770 --> 00:01:28,420 metamorphosis from. So they use the word that's 27 00:01:28,430 --> 00:01:32,520 literally translated. He was transfigured, which does 28 00:01:32,530 --> 00:01:39,590 have this seemingly like like big mysterious, like does he 29 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,640 look like himself kind of questioned behind it? 30 00:01:42,650 --> 00:01:45,310 Like what really does he appear like? 31 00:01:45,390 --> 00:01:50,360 Whereas Luke just says his his his face is closed. 32 00:01:50,370 --> 00:01:52,870 Like everything was shining as bright as lightning, which is 33 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,200 still like really dramatic. But I think I said on Sunday, 34 00:01:57,210 --> 00:02:00,850 like he doesn't shape shift. It's not like he becomes this 35 00:02:00,860 --> 00:02:06,990 completely different person. He just reveals the fullness 36 00:02:07,050 --> 00:02:10,889 like more of who he is right in his being. 37 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:13,750 Like I, I think we, you know, when we, when we picture Jesus 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:19,000 walking around with the disciples, I assume anyways, for 39 00:02:19,010 --> 00:02:21,680 many of us, like it's easy to picture him walking around as a 40 00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:24,110 human being. But we have this like theology 41 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,160 where we say Jesus is fully human, but he's fully God. 42 00:02:27,250 --> 00:02:30,410 And then when he begins to reveal himself as fully God in 43 00:02:30,420 --> 00:02:36,480 that full glory, power, awe and fear, the disciples are afraid. 44 00:02:36,810 --> 00:02:39,080 We kind of go, yeah, we have a hard time picturing that. 45 00:02:39,130 --> 00:02:45,240 And I think that's OK. You know, I think this is part 46 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:49,280 of the challenge of holding that theology of Jesus being fully 47 00:02:49,290 --> 00:02:53,420 God and fully man. So we go, OK, I like the fully 48 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:54,900 human piece. I can picture that. 49 00:02:54,950 --> 00:02:58,420 I can imagine what it looks like for Jesus to walk around. 50 00:02:58,630 --> 00:03:02,070 And then we go, OK, fully God. But these are the moments where 51 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,480 given those glimpses into that full nature. 52 00:03:05,530 --> 00:03:08,570 I wonder if, and I'm just picking up on this as you're 53 00:03:08,580 --> 00:03:11,660 talking there, like I'm now thinking about, you know, Fast 54 00:03:11,670 --> 00:03:15,590 forward, Jesus has died and been raised and, and they're 55 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,360 struggling to recognize him. Like they're, they're like, 56 00:03:18,370 --> 00:03:21,520 they, it's like, it's like, it's him, but it's different, you 57 00:03:21,530 --> 00:03:22,800 know, like he. Walks through walls. 58 00:03:22,810 --> 00:03:24,040 Yeah, like. Beers. 59 00:03:24,050 --> 00:03:26,200 Places. There, there is, there is an 60 00:03:26,210 --> 00:03:28,920 element that that I'm kind of just thinking like, you know, 61 00:03:28,930 --> 00:03:33,300 when, when Jesus is glorified in that way, you know, like it, it 62 00:03:33,310 --> 00:03:37,140 feels like, yeah, something's different in his, in his 63 00:03:37,270 --> 00:03:40,180 appearance to people. Yeah. 64 00:03:40,290 --> 00:03:42,760 Yeah, but I think it is. So, you know, Luke, Luke 65 00:03:42,770 --> 00:03:47,730 definitely describes the events in largely the same way as as 66 00:03:47,740 --> 00:03:52,270 Matthew and as Mark, the two of the other gospel writers. 67 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:58,000 But he does it in a way that I think does kind of wrestle with 68 00:03:58,010 --> 00:04:00,960 the, yeah, like, you're never gonna believe what happened, but 69 00:04:00,970 --> 00:04:04,140 yeah, this is what happened. And the disciples, too, you 70 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:06,260 know, at the end. We didn't talk much about this 71 00:04:06,310 --> 00:04:11,510 on Sunday, now through. So we've just come through a 72 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,130 chunk of nine of, of Luke 9 where Jesus tells people to be 73 00:04:16,140 --> 00:04:19,690 silent. And in many instances where 74 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:23,410 Jesus tells somebody to be silent, they're not here. 75 00:04:23,420 --> 00:04:26,070 Jesus doesn't say, oh, be quiet about this. 76 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,730 Don't tell anybody. They're so struck by awe and 77 00:04:30,780 --> 00:04:35,150 fear, reverence, like the full, like the fullness of this. 78 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,130 They don't tell anybody they're silent almost by choice in this, 79 00:04:40,180 --> 00:04:41,850 in this moment. So I think they're wrestling it 80 00:04:41,860 --> 00:04:44,150 out as well, like what has just happened. 81 00:04:45,490 --> 00:04:52,990 But it it is certainly a, it is a different event than many of 82 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,520 the ones like, I can't remember which commentary I was reading 83 00:04:57,530 --> 00:05:02,760 in actually again today, pushing forward into the next few 84 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:05,340 passages over the next few weeks. 85 00:05:05,350 --> 00:05:11,350 And one of the commentators writes along those lines, like, 86 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,520 we have better language. We see the healings. 87 00:05:15,530 --> 00:05:17,730 We see these other things happen and they're miraculous. 88 00:05:17,740 --> 00:05:21,850 But, you know, I think maybe it's because human beings are 89 00:05:21,860 --> 00:05:24,730 involved here. It's like the only actor, the 90 00:05:24,820 --> 00:05:28,240 only actor is God, right? Like everybody else is just 91 00:05:28,250 --> 00:05:33,960 standing there witnessing the thing, you know, Jesus having 92 00:05:33,970 --> 00:05:37,580 this conversation with Moses and Elijah, which maybe adds to like 93 00:05:37,590 --> 00:05:41,420 the the mystery of it. It does for me because it it, it 94 00:05:41,430 --> 00:05:43,620 kind of feels like I started thinking about it and I and I 95 00:05:43,630 --> 00:05:47,140 started thinking about felt Star Wars. 96 00:05:47,270 --> 00:05:51,440 And by that I by that I mean, I kind of like picture, like the 97 00:05:51,450 --> 00:05:56,840 end of spoiler alert. If you have not seen the return 98 00:05:56,850 --> 00:06:01,190 of the Jedi, that's the, the episode 6 right. 99 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,290 Return of the Jedi. Anyway, we're like, you know, 100 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:05,790 like at the very end and like you got like Darth Vader or 101 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,890 like, you know, Anakin, he was like, you know, in like a little 102 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:11,570 bubble in the they're kind of like, you know, saying hi, 103 00:06:11,580 --> 00:06:14,360 waving away. The same thing happened 1 Obi 104 00:06:14,370 --> 00:06:16,510 Wan Kenobi like. Same thing happens in Happy 105 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,520 Gilmore. Yeah, I wonder if that was 106 00:06:19,530 --> 00:06:21,490 inspired. By for sure. 107 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,900 Absolutely it was, but like you almost kind of like picture 108 00:06:24,910 --> 00:06:30,210 like, OK, how, how are our how is Moses and Elijah present? 109 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,310 In what way are they present? And I know that like in some 110 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,610 ways it doesn't matter, but I think for for, for in some ways 111 00:06:37,620 --> 00:06:41,270 it's, it's, it's important to consider like what was the 112 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:44,750 nature of this event, right? And I know that, you know, when 113 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,480 you look at like Elijah, Elijah technically is one of the only 114 00:06:49,490 --> 00:06:53,940 other years in the Scripture that doesn't die in the classic 115 00:06:53,950 --> 00:06:54,570 sense. We think of. 116 00:06:54,580 --> 00:06:57,150 We think of Elijah and then Enoch. 117 00:06:58,950 --> 00:07:04,120 And so there was some sense even earlier in Luke 9 that, you 118 00:07:04,130 --> 00:07:08,460 know, that Jesus was sort of the return of Elijah in some way 119 00:07:08,470 --> 00:07:10,240 like that. He was the, the, this prophetic 120 00:07:10,250 --> 00:07:12,700 figure in the same way of Elijah. 121 00:07:12,710 --> 00:07:15,000 And maybe Elijah didn't die somebody, Elijah somehow 122 00:07:15,010 --> 00:07:17,340 returned all these hundreds of years later. 123 00:07:17,810 --> 00:07:23,540 Moses, however, did very clearly die, you know, and and so it's 124 00:07:23,550 --> 00:07:25,200 just, yeah, it's, it's interesting. 125 00:07:25,270 --> 00:07:29,750 It feels it's like it's, it's fascinating, fantastical, a 126 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,100 little a little challenging to grapple with. 127 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:37,070 Hmm Yeah, yeah, I I don't know how far we wanna go down this 128 00:07:37,140 --> 00:07:41,750 path, but did you find it interesting that yeah, like 129 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,400 Elijah is one of these figures like you've mentioned who, who 130 00:07:44,410 --> 00:07:49,320 doesn't die in the way that we, you know, we we would think of 131 00:07:49,330 --> 00:07:54,320 or describe death. So in second Kings, I just 132 00:07:54,330 --> 00:07:57,620 pulled this up, but it's second Kings 211. 133 00:07:58,350 --> 00:08:02,830 He he's whisked away on on a chariot and it's literally it's 134 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,620 like mid conversation with Elijah. 135 00:08:06,090 --> 00:08:10,930 So he in 10 he's Elijah says you've asked a difficult thing. 136 00:08:10,940 --> 00:08:14,200 Elijah said. Yet if you see me when I am 137 00:08:14,210 --> 00:08:15,840 taken from you, it will be yours. 138 00:08:15,850 --> 00:08:20,120 Otherwise it will not. And then 11 as they were walking 139 00:08:20,130 --> 00:08:22,420 along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and 140 00:08:22,430 --> 00:08:25,700 horses fire fire appeared separated the two of them. 141 00:08:25,710 --> 00:08:27,840 Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 142 00:08:28,230 --> 00:08:30,940 Elijah saw this and cried out like that's it. 143 00:08:30,990 --> 00:08:33,340 Like mid conversation walking and talking. 144 00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:37,020 Really fantastical. Equally, equally so, yeah. 145 00:08:37,070 --> 00:08:41,080 But, you know, I think in terms of the way Scripture talks about 146 00:08:41,150 --> 00:08:44,510 the interaction between what would what we would describe as 147 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,020 like heaven or the heavens and earth, like we really, you and 148 00:08:48,030 --> 00:08:50,710 I've talked about this, I think on the podcast, like human 149 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:56,450 beings. I think certainly like 2025, 150 00:08:56,500 --> 00:09:02,550 like we really like good solid delineation, borders, 151 00:09:02,590 --> 00:09:06,860 boundaries. You know, I think we really like 152 00:09:06,870 --> 00:09:10,890 to compartmentalize things. And so we think of, you know, 153 00:09:10,900 --> 00:09:14,820 heaven's the place where we go when we die, uh, completely 154 00:09:14,830 --> 00:09:17,860 spiritual. Spiritual is other, you know, if 155 00:09:17,870 --> 00:09:22,580 we, if we have that even sort of theology or vision of what life 156 00:09:22,590 --> 00:09:27,710 after death looks like, it is very different separated from 157 00:09:28,030 --> 00:09:31,380 this like physical earth. We like to separate what is 158 00:09:31,390 --> 00:09:36,170 physical from what is spiritual. And the scripture doesn't tell 159 00:09:36,180 --> 00:09:38,860 that story. One of where there are these 160 00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:45,050 separated realms of in heaven away up there somewhere like 161 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:49,070 that's, you know, medieval like, like we gotta work our way long 162 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,170 into the history of Christianity to kind of work our way toward 163 00:09:52,180 --> 00:09:55,730 that level of like separation between heaven and earth. 164 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:02,650 And so a really good example of it is Isaiah 6 where like Isaiah 165 00:10:02,660 --> 00:10:06,030 sees Jesus. So you get this like vision 166 00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:09,750 Isaiah and says in the year that King Uziah died, I saw the Lord 167 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,440 high and exalted seated on a throne, right. 168 00:10:13,510 --> 00:10:18,560 And so a lot of people talk about, you know, want to 169 00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:22,800 understand that it's like Elijah seeing seeing Jesus pre, you 170 00:10:22,810 --> 00:10:26,120 know, pre incarnation. And I go, OK, like we can talk 171 00:10:26,130 --> 00:10:29,500 about that and debate what does it mean when referring to Lord 172 00:10:29,510 --> 00:10:32,180 here? All of that like, you know, but 173 00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:37,540 there are these moments where figures in the scripture have 174 00:10:37,550 --> 00:10:42,470 these, um, you know, these visions, these experiences, 175 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,350 these moments where like heaven and earth just collapse. 176 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,710 The different like the the distinction between the distance 177 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,090 between just collapse. And you use that language of 178 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,010 thin spaces which which? Where did that come from? 179 00:10:53,020 --> 00:10:54,930 Again, that was. So yeah, like Celtic 180 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:57,030 Christianity. So the best example of it is 181 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,520 Iona, like the island off Scotland and lots of good 182 00:11:02,530 --> 00:11:06,330 Presbyterian minister got to talk about it, right. 183 00:11:06,340 --> 00:11:11,480 But you know, Scottish heritage we that that's a place that's 184 00:11:11,490 --> 00:11:15,240 described as a thin space, the island of Iona where you can go 185 00:11:15,250 --> 00:11:24,580 and make your way to a building. There is name is gone from my 186 00:11:24,590 --> 00:11:25,900 head but. Yeah. 187 00:11:25,950 --> 00:11:29,020 And so I could imagine, you know, with like these thin 188 00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:34,900 spaces when we think about, you know, not delineating heaven and 189 00:11:34,910 --> 00:11:38,340 earth in the same way that we are prone to doing, and I'm 190 00:11:38,350 --> 00:11:41,360 still very prone to doing. It's, it's like our natural 191 00:11:41,370 --> 00:11:45,440 ingrained bent I think is to is to delineate those things. 192 00:11:46,390 --> 00:11:49,670 And so when we we need that reminder that like, hey, what's 193 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:53,560 happening here is that is that like there's, there's a little 194 00:11:53,570 --> 00:11:57,320 bit of heaven happening here, you know, and, and I'm just 195 00:11:57,330 --> 00:11:59,310 trying to tease this out a little bit for my own, for my 196 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,470 own brain a little bit even. Yeah, like there's a little bit 197 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,600 of heaven happening here. And so when we think about 198 00:12:04,650 --> 00:12:07,560 having and the potential reuniting of those who came 199 00:12:07,570 --> 00:12:09,440 before us and loved ones, etcetera. 200 00:12:09,830 --> 00:12:12,110 OK, yeah, it could make sense. It makes a lot of sense actually 201 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,600 that that these two significant, two of the most significant 202 00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:20,680 figures in in their in their spiritual heritage have have 203 00:12:20,690 --> 00:12:24,030 turned up for this event. Yeah, yeah, I think so. 204 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,690 And again, like I referenced this, but I didn't, we didn't do 205 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:33,890 a deep dive into it on Sunday. The like the fact that it is 206 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:38,770 Moses and Elijah, I think is very like theologically pointed. 207 00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:43,890 It's a very specific, so you have Moses who represents all of 208 00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:49,910 the law of Israel, like Israel's history between the people of 209 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:55,510 Israel and God as covenant people and all of the law that 210 00:12:55,520 --> 00:13:00,830 was given pointing toward Jesus and Elijah really representing 211 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,150 all of the prophets. So you know, when we hear those 212 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,950 two reference together, essentially what we're saying 213 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:14,810 is, and what we're seeing here is that all of the law, all of 214 00:13:14,820 --> 00:13:19,730 what we would understand as like Israel's history to this point, 215 00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:22,800 their relationship via the law toward God. 216 00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:25,960 And all of the prophets, all of what they declared to be true 217 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:29,220 about Israel, about the about the world, about the nations 218 00:13:29,230 --> 00:13:35,420 around Israel, about God, all of it is pointing us toward Jesus. 219 00:13:36,830 --> 00:13:40,840 And so I like, I do think that it's, you know, could it have 220 00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:43,150 been other people? Sure. 221 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,210 Like could Abraham have appeared and Enoch, who you referenced, 222 00:13:47,220 --> 00:13:48,590 right. Or Elijah? 223 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,950 Yeah, maybe. But I think those two are very 224 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,990 specific because what what is being declared in this moment 225 00:13:55,990 --> 00:14:01,990 and witnessed by Peter, James and John is all of their like, 226 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,990 as as Jewish men, like all of their history going, ohhh, this 227 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,530 is this is the fulfillment of that. 228 00:14:08,540 --> 00:14:16,340 This is God declaring who Jesus is and pointing those present 229 00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:21,780 toward all of their hopes and expectations for themselves, for 230 00:14:21,850 --> 00:14:27,300 their people, for the world being fulfilled in Jesus. 231 00:14:27,830 --> 00:14:31,680 And I started wondering, you know, yeah, why not someone like 232 00:14:31,690 --> 00:14:34,020 Abraham, you know, I started wondering, why not a king, you 233 00:14:34,030 --> 00:14:36,820 know, like that. So it's. 234 00:14:37,650 --> 00:14:39,770 But I think you you've highlighted exactly, you know 235 00:14:39,780 --> 00:14:44,040 exactly why it's it's the law and the prophets that Jesus has 236 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:48,250 come to fulfill the you know, what they what they set out to 237 00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:50,810 do is the culmination is here. Yeah. 238 00:14:51,220 --> 00:14:53,250 Yeah, just like to say one thing. 239 00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:58,630 I think that this moment, it's somewhat unique in the New 240 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:04,430 Testament, like there are fewer, like when I think about the Old 241 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,360 Testament stories that I even just, like, immediately come to, 242 00:15:08,370 --> 00:15:11,060 like Moses going up, maybe just because, like I did mention it 243 00:15:11,070 --> 00:15:13,510 on Sunday, like Moses going up the mountain to get the 10 244 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,250 commandments. Yeah, asking, right, people 245 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:23,410 asking to see God's face, like the glory of God, you go. 246 00:15:23,460 --> 00:15:25,710 I mean, Moses had a ton of them. The burning Bush's. 247 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,070 Yeah, right. Like these, these encounters 248 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,490 with God. So that one specifically where 249 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:36,750 Moses is told where he speaks with God and the burning Bush, 250 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,090 he's told to take off his sandals, like take off because 251 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,230 the ground he's standing on his holy. 252 00:15:42,380 --> 00:15:46,650 So we get a lot of these moments throughout the Old Testament and 253 00:15:46,660 --> 00:15:51,630 it's a fairly natural way of talking about human like God 254 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,410 meeting with human beings. You have the tent of the 255 00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:56,660 presence through the wanderings in the wilderness. 256 00:15:56,670 --> 00:15:59,370 Where was it was expected, like it was known God would show up 257 00:15:59,380 --> 00:16:01,330 there. And then we get the New 258 00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:05,790 Testament and so much of it is focused on Jesus and the work 259 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,010 that Jesus is doing incarnation. It's almost like the entire 260 00:16:09,020 --> 00:16:12,880 story of Jesus, like those those years of his ministry that are 261 00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:17,170 told in the gospels. All of them are that same level 262 00:16:17,180 --> 00:16:19,310 of moment. And yet we still get this like 263 00:16:19,380 --> 00:16:21,010 this one feels like a little heightened. 264 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,470 We kind of get used to like, oh, Jesus is walking around with 265 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,760 you, man, like God's physically present and it just becomes a 266 00:16:27,770 --> 00:16:31,220 little bit like mundane. And then we have this moment. 267 00:16:31,230 --> 00:16:34,360 We're like, Oh no, but really like the whole whole of the 268 00:16:35,220 --> 00:16:39,140 whole of Jesus ministry is one of these moments where like 269 00:16:39,150 --> 00:16:43,160 God's physically here, like in this miraculous and very 270 00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:46,110 grounded way. But I think that this moment, 271 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,460 this mountain top experience is just like it really is just 272 00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:53,280 trying to hammer that point home that this is gad come, doesn't 273 00:16:53,290 --> 00:16:57,650 need a 10th of presence, doesn't need a temple, doesn't need a 274 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,590 burning Bush, doesn't need it like like God is here in this 275 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,770 person. And even though didn't need a 276 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:07,630 tent, they, they, they, they seemed to want the disciples 277 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,240 seemed to want tents Like it's, it's good that we're here. 278 00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:14,880 Let's, let's set up some tents. Let's let's hang out here a 279 00:17:14,890 --> 00:17:21,329 while, which, you know, kind of is a, is a natural segue into 280 00:17:21,339 --> 00:17:27,240 one of the other thoughts that arose for me, which was some of 281 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:32,880 what you were talking about when it comes to limiting and 282 00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:37,340 containing God and, and even even moments, You know, I think 283 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:40,740 it's like, it's natural for us and, and for me as as a, as a 284 00:17:40,750 --> 00:17:44,620 human being, that when we're experiencing a good thing, like 285 00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:46,280 this is a good, this is really amazing. 286 00:17:46,290 --> 00:17:50,520 Like I, I'm here with, with my rabbi, who I've just recently 287 00:17:50,530 --> 00:17:54,130 learned is like the Messiah. And I'm here now with these, you 288 00:17:54,140 --> 00:17:57,580 know, these heroes of the faith that I grew up learning about. 289 00:17:57,590 --> 00:18:02,320 Like this is this is pretty full on, you know, how can we, how 290 00:18:02,330 --> 00:18:04,860 could we hang out here a while like that? 291 00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:08,160 That feels very, very normal, right? 292 00:18:09,420 --> 00:18:12,570 And yet it's obviously not what Jesus had intended for that 293 00:18:12,580 --> 00:18:17,920 moment. And, and we can, you know, we 294 00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:22,080 can look at the example of particularly Peter, as you, as 295 00:18:22,090 --> 00:18:27,830 you pointed out, of our, of our tendency to, to cling to, to 296 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,770 cling to and limit and contain God. 297 00:18:31,790 --> 00:18:34,180 And I'm thinking about that for our lives. 298 00:18:34,190 --> 00:18:36,990 You know, I, I, I'm, I've been thinking on that a little bit. 299 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,130 Would love to get into that a bit. 300 00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:45,610 And also as a church, how we do that as a church, as as churches 301 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:49,580 across the world really, you know, I think specifically for 302 00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:52,610 us, but it's good for us to consider very specific 303 00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:55,900 implications. But I don't know, like, I don't 304 00:18:55,910 --> 00:18:56,930 know where you want to go with that. 305 00:18:56,940 --> 00:19:00,170 But I'm, I'm just been thinking on that a little bit, yeah. 306 00:19:00,220 --> 00:19:03,980 Yeah, so like I think there's a way of talking about Peter's 307 00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:05,570 reaction. Like Peter's reaction is very, 308 00:19:05,580 --> 00:19:08,250 This is why I love Peter. Like it is the human reaction. 309 00:19:08,260 --> 00:19:12,990 Like it's so Peter gets beaten up on a lot, but mostly because 310 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,950 I go, oh, yes, I would react the same way, right. 311 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,490 You can very easily find yourself there. 312 00:19:20,620 --> 00:19:27,670 And so I think like we're gonna see from here through to the end 313 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:34,540 of Chapter 9 really is, I think, I think Fred Craddock calls it 314 00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:39,120 like snapshots of the not yet ready disciples or something. 315 00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:43,370 So we really start to see like the disciples begin to struggle 316 00:19:43,420 --> 00:19:49,030 and wrestle out what what this means for Jesus to be who he 317 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,290 says he is. This is his predicted his death 318 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:56,280 once he's going to predict his death again, like in for us what 319 00:19:56,290 --> 00:20:00,510 will be a couple of weeks. But you know, before the end of 320 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,050 the chapter, I believe it's once more in. 321 00:20:03,850 --> 00:20:06,340 Yeah, it's, it's once more in Chapter 9. 322 00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:11,430 So, you know, I, I really do think that they're, they're 323 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,680 coming to terms with what it means for Jesus to be the 324 00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:19,410 Messiah in a way that is not what they expected. 325 00:20:19,460 --> 00:20:22,480 Yeah. So you know they are there. 326 00:20:23,930 --> 00:20:28,390 I can picture the tension of being so right, being like we 327 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,190 were waiting for a Messiah for generations and he's here. 328 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,290 Like the Messiah is here. We were right, but we were so 329 00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:43,330 wrong about what that would look like and what it meant for them, 330 00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:49,870 what it meant for Jesus for it to be like the, the, this 331 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:51,750 beautiful tension. We're going to see this 332 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:57,250 beautiful tension between power and powerlessness, like pure, 333 00:20:57,460 --> 00:21:01,350 that power of God who created the heavens and the earth and 334 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,350 powerlessness of one who dies on a cross. 335 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,970 And they're starting to wrestle this out because Jesus has said, 336 00:21:07,980 --> 00:21:10,640 Hey, this is who I am. He's shown it over and over 337 00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:12,910 again. Now he's declared, I've gotta 338 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,830 die. And so I can picture Peter 339 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,220 going, what if? What if you don't have to? 340 00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:22,200 Yeah. Like, like, this is a pretty 341 00:21:22,210 --> 00:21:24,280 good moment. Why can't we hold on to this? 342 00:21:24,650 --> 00:21:28,120 Even if it means, like, even if you do have to die, let's stay 343 00:21:28,130 --> 00:21:29,990 here as absolutely as long as possible. 344 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,110 And you're like, so I can see that. 345 00:21:33,250 --> 00:21:37,220 Just the tension between what Peter wants and what God wants. 346 00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:39,840 And feels like it's like directly, I know it's like it's 347 00:21:39,850 --> 00:21:42,450 eight days after Jesus has talked about this. 348 00:21:42,490 --> 00:21:46,680 So it kind of feels like this is fresh off the heels of, of, of 349 00:21:46,690 --> 00:21:50,740 this massive revelation of who Jesus is. 350 00:21:50,750 --> 00:21:53,790 Yeah. And, and, and their, their 351 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,050 declaration of who Jesus is. And, and now they're, they're 352 00:21:58,060 --> 00:22:01,630 like, oh, well, that if there's a way to stop that, if we yeah, 353 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,030 yeah. Or delay or yeah, yeah. 354 00:22:04,090 --> 00:22:06,780 So I think, I think Peter, I think on the one hand, Peter is 355 00:22:06,790 --> 00:22:10,770 afraid of the future. So he's fearing what will be and 356 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:15,750 he's idolizing what was, you know, I think, you know, one of 357 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,920 the easiest to the point of your question, one of the easiest 358 00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:19,960 ways that we fall into the same trap as a church. 359 00:22:19,970 --> 00:22:22,860 And I'll just say this as the pastor of a church, right? 360 00:22:23,150 --> 00:22:27,460 We can fear the future and what is unknown, and we can fear 361 00:22:27,470 --> 00:22:29,720 following Jesus into what is unknown. 362 00:22:29,970 --> 00:22:32,160 And like, even now I'm going like me and my girls love 363 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:36,020 watching Frozen and like the there's a song, like I know 364 00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:39,920 that's exactly it. Then we can also idolize the 365 00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:41,500 past. Yeah. 366 00:22:41,550 --> 00:22:44,980 And I think we're particularly good at doing both of those 367 00:22:44,990 --> 00:22:47,800 things as churches still. Yeah. 368 00:22:47,850 --> 00:22:51,560 That when we think about. So one of the East simplest ways 369 00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:56,240 I hear this is we shouldn't, we couldn't do that. 370 00:22:57,300 --> 00:22:58,240 Why? Well, why be? 371 00:22:58,250 --> 00:23:01,150 Well, because we tried that in 1875 and it didn't work. 372 00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:04,310 And I remember I was there like that type of and like, 373 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,300 obviously, like nobody, you know, nobody still around from 374 00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:08,730 1875, but. And I chose a date that was 375 00:23:08,740 --> 00:23:11,110 before our church was actually planted. 376 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,510 I did that also did that on purpose. 377 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,370 But like, you know, we get into that mindset of yeah, either 378 00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:20,000 either the past is this idol of perfection. 379 00:23:20,010 --> 00:23:23,010 And like, I remember when the Sunday school had 150 kids and 380 00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:26,050 like there weren't even 150 adults in the like, there were 381 00:23:26,060 --> 00:23:32,330 like, like, but you get into that mindset of the past was all 382 00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:34,620 things successful and it was easy. 383 00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:39,840 And we are bursting at the seams and we had every sort of age 384 00:23:39,850 --> 00:23:43,020 group filled and we're struggling now. 385 00:23:43,030 --> 00:23:46,700 So you idolize what was like, we got to get back to that. 386 00:23:46,810 --> 00:23:49,980 And So what we got to do those same things because, well, what 387 00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:52,750 worked then should work, but it doesn't work that way. 388 00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:57,330 What what gets you here is not gonna get you there. 389 00:23:57,420 --> 00:24:04,100 And what got them anyway? So we we idolize what was either 390 00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:08,120 by, you know, by saying that, yeah, we tried that once and it 391 00:24:08,130 --> 00:24:13,480 failed, we should never try it again, or by just assuming this 392 00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:17,520 like rose coloured glasses. The past was perfect and we 393 00:24:17,530 --> 00:24:20,000 gotta get back to it. And I think we struggle with 394 00:24:20,010 --> 00:24:23,570 fearing the future and what is unknown and the what ifs and the 395 00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:25,360 what if we do something and everybody leaves? 396 00:24:25,370 --> 00:24:27,500 Or what if this is the Sunday that nobody shows up? 397 00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:30,440 Or what if they like, you know, so we, we live in this kind of 398 00:24:30,450 --> 00:24:36,450 perpetual, um, limbo almost of, you know, we can't go back and 399 00:24:36,460 --> 00:24:38,490 we're afraid to go forward. So I think that's what Peter 400 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:41,490 stuck in, in this moment. He's idolizing the past. 401 00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:45,670 He's like, he's using the past to understand what's happening 402 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,950 in the present. And so in doing that, it misses 403 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,590 really some of the point of, of God confirming the way of the 404 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,420 cross for Jesus. So he's like, no, I understand 405 00:24:58,430 --> 00:24:59,040 this. We get it. 406 00:24:59,050 --> 00:25:02,130 Like we can just put it into this box back here and be good 407 00:25:02,140 --> 00:25:06,020 with it. Yeah, and he's doing it because 408 00:25:06,030 --> 00:25:09,460 he's afraid of what is to come, and he's afraid of what, you 409 00:25:09,470 --> 00:25:10,870 know. He kind of knows, doesn't really 410 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,770 know. Jesus said he's gonna die. 411 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Not like, you know, they, there's these moments right 412 00:25:17,090 --> 00:25:19,110 where it says like he's, they still don't understand what's to 413 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:20,710 come, but eventually they, they do. 414 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,930 And yeah, and you know, after Jesus raised some debt, then 415 00:25:22,940 --> 00:25:25,350 they understood. So like there's a lot of unknown 416 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:27,730 and uncertainty for the disciples in there, like 417 00:25:27,740 --> 00:25:30,470 immediate future right now. So I think we do that as a 418 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,390 church. We, like I said, we idolize the 419 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,610 past. We fear the future. 420 00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:37,890 I think as individuals we do it as well because we're also 421 00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:43,010 afraid of what God might do. And I think that's like a 422 00:25:43,020 --> 00:25:50,690 perpetual hustling that we have is just this tendency to, you 423 00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:53,800 know, I might not like where I am, but at least I know, like, 424 00:25:54,290 --> 00:25:56,500 what's this saying? Like better the devil you know. 425 00:25:56,550 --> 00:25:59,650 Yeah, right. I don't know. 426 00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:02,420 I think we kind of get stuck in that, like, uncomfortable. 427 00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:07,340 I don't wanna be uncomfortable. If change makes me 428 00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:10,800 uncomfortable, I'll choose to stay here. 429 00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:12,730 Yeah. So we don't like the discomfort 430 00:26:12,740 --> 00:26:15,530 that comes with change. We don't like the discomfort 431 00:26:15,540 --> 00:26:18,580 with that comes with God doing something significant. 432 00:26:19,710 --> 00:26:24,180 And so we we like to stay kind of exactly where we are. 433 00:26:24,220 --> 00:26:27,810 Hmm, yeah. I mean, the the same can be true 434 00:26:27,820 --> 00:26:31,370 of individuals as as is of the church as a whole. 435 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:36,050 We can long for days that were and kind of regret and bemoan 436 00:26:36,060 --> 00:26:40,030 and miss and but I think probably more so as individuals, 437 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:46,810 we fear the the discomfort of God actually doing the thing 438 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,430 that we really long and need him to do. 439 00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:52,960 Because like it means that there's gonna have to be, you 440 00:26:52,970 --> 00:26:55,400 know, there is change and, and it's going to often going to be 441 00:26:55,410 --> 00:26:58,380 hard change and uncomfortable change. 442 00:26:58,390 --> 00:27:05,450 And all of those things will lead us to wanting to either, 443 00:27:06,210 --> 00:27:09,150 you know, just put a little, put it, let's put that. 444 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,760 Let's just put it, put a dent on it. 445 00:27:10,930 --> 00:27:13,640 Yeah, yeah, Let's just stay here now. 446 00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:16,340 We're good, we're good. And I am also thinking about, 447 00:27:16,350 --> 00:27:19,020 you know, like just real, you know, in real time here. 448 00:27:19,090 --> 00:27:21,720 It's the first week of September 2025. 449 00:27:21,790 --> 00:27:26,300 It's actually our churches 45th anniversary as a church. 450 00:27:26,490 --> 00:27:28,000 And I'm and I'm thinking about that. 451 00:27:28,010 --> 00:27:30,640 It's, you know, it's it's not 50, but it's, you know, it's a 452 00:27:30,650 --> 00:27:34,960 milestone. It's and and I am aware. 453 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:39,620 And this is like a good for just us to Mull over as as a church. 454 00:27:39,670 --> 00:27:44,800 I am aware that as a church kind of creeps toward sort of that 455 00:27:44,810 --> 00:27:48,490 that 50. You know, churches early on in 456 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:52,000 their lifespan for the first number of decades often have 457 00:27:52,010 --> 00:27:56,340 this very entrepreneurial spirit about them, this very sort of 458 00:27:56,410 --> 00:28:00,060 even Apostolic spirit, right? And I think that's very true, of 459 00:28:00,070 --> 00:28:02,170 course, right? Like like when you hear some of 460 00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:05,210 the stories about what God has done over the years and God's 461 00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:08,730 faithfulness through some pretty cool circumstances. 462 00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:12,550 Like there are so many beautiful stories about what, what God has 463 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,330 done and, and, and things that have happened within this 464 00:28:16,340 --> 00:28:20,940 community. But I'm also aware that when you 465 00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:25,720 get to kind of 50 or older, like you can start to 466 00:28:25,770 --> 00:28:32,660 institutionalized and it starts to become, you know, just same 467 00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:34,860 old, same old. What, what you know, what can we 468 00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:40,790 do that we know will work? And sometimes that leads to, you 469 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,810 know, the inevitable decline that we're seeing in lots of 470 00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:47,610 churches around our, you know, around our denomination. 471 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:53,420 Not to talk about the elephant in the room, but yeah, I don't 472 00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:54,940 know what what are your what are your thoughts on? 473 00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:58,700 That no, I I love that. I think that if, yeah, if 474 00:28:58,710 --> 00:29:02,130 there's one thing from the past for us as a church that I don't 475 00:29:02,140 --> 00:29:06,260 want people to forget and abandon, it is that church 476 00:29:06,270 --> 00:29:11,860 planting boldness that that is the reason for our existence. 477 00:29:11,870 --> 00:29:14,920 Yeah. Like we exist. 478 00:29:14,930 --> 00:29:20,860 We're sitting here in this building which like ironically, 479 00:29:21,150 --> 00:29:25,470 comedically, I don't know, in God's humor, was the building 480 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,310 that we started in when we, like you and I, weren't here. 481 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,310 Not this, Not this we. Weren't even born. 482 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,790 Church we, right, 45 years ago, this church was planted and we 483 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,730 met in the gym in this building, which at that time was a school, 484 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,970 and then grew to a point where like, hey, we need a building 485 00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:46,370 built a building on court right, which is why we're called court, 486 00:29:46,380 --> 00:29:48,330 right. Presbyterian Church outgrew that 487 00:29:48,340 --> 00:29:52,230 building and then bought this building, the original building. 488 00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:54,530 Yeah. I go even just the boldness to 489 00:29:54,540 --> 00:29:57,450 do like you wouldn't you wouldn't write that as a story 490 00:29:57,460 --> 00:29:59,570 like as a plot line. You wouldn't plan that out. 491 00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:02,830 And I go at every moment, man, there were these faithful 492 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:09,420 followers of Jesus who knew that we wanted felt called for there 493 00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:14,010 to be like a gospel presence in this general area in in our 494 00:30:14,020 --> 00:30:15,450 city. Which was at that point the 495 00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:17,210 South end of. Guelph, the southmost. 496 00:30:17,220 --> 00:30:20,730 End, which is no longer. Yeah, it has gone much further 497 00:30:20,740 --> 00:30:21,630 South. Oh yeah. 498 00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:23,710 And not in a bad way. Like I don't mean that in a bad 499 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,710 way sense of the term. I I just mean literally it is 500 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,690 gone further developed. Further. 501 00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:31,270 So I just want to be very clear. I lived in the South End for 502 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,300 many years so. Wow. 503 00:30:35,070 --> 00:30:42,540 I just like the the right way to honor the past, I think is by 504 00:30:42,550 --> 00:30:47,600 maintaining the same spirit. Yeah, that that those people had 505 00:30:47,670 --> 00:30:51,420 and some still have. Like that's the beauty of like 506 00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:56,320 45 years is some of the original people who planted this church 507 00:30:56,390 --> 00:30:58,560 are still around to tell those stories. 508 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,700 And so I do think that that's the way we honor it, not by 509 00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:05,560 saying, let's you know, we've got a carbon copy everything 510 00:31:05,570 --> 00:31:08,470 that they did, but by saying, like here were people who were 511 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,010 bold because they believed that the gospel needed to reach this 512 00:31:12,060 --> 00:31:14,330 neck of the woods, like our area of the city. 513 00:31:14,860 --> 00:31:18,370 And so we're going to hold on to that same mentality and be bold 514 00:31:18,380 --> 00:31:21,270 and take risks because the gospel still needs to reach this 515 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,290 part of the city. And that's like that's the 516 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:28,350 spirit that that I think our church was launched with. 517 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,800 And that's the spirit that's going to keep it moving in the 518 00:31:30,810 --> 00:31:33,880 right direction. So it's not about less about 519 00:31:33,890 --> 00:31:36,870 systems or about programs or about how do we do the things 520 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,950 that we were doing. It's no how do we pray and trust 521 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,000 and listen and lean into where God is calling us to go and be 522 00:31:46,010 --> 00:31:52,260 and do That's we got to hold on. To and to take take holy risks 523 00:31:52,270 --> 00:31:55,880 yeah, like, and I and I don't like that's why out of the the 524 00:31:55,890 --> 00:31:59,200 qualifier of holy risks because I think that you can take stupid 525 00:31:59,210 --> 00:32:05,380 risks, but but that when we are like, you know, just like God, 526 00:32:05,610 --> 00:32:07,560 it seems like God is leading us toward this. 527 00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:08,910 And we're going to take a leap of faith. 528 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,410 And maybe this is a little crazy, but we're going to do it, 529 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:15,240 you know, and, and, and I think, you know, I think there are some 530 00:32:15,250 --> 00:32:18,870 things that have been happening and will be happening in the not 531 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,080 too distant sure that are like, yeah, this is a leap of faith, 532 00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:26,120 you know, like God is God is calling us to something and it's 533 00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:27,420 not always going to be comfortable. 534 00:32:27,430 --> 00:32:29,460 It's going to be challenging, right? 535 00:32:29,470 --> 00:32:34,180 And and so I'm excited about it, but I'm also someone who tends 536 00:32:34,190 --> 00:32:38,090 to love change. Like an early adopter. 537 00:32:39,090 --> 00:32:42,820 Sometimes OK yeah yeah like when it come when it comes to like 538 00:32:42,830 --> 00:32:46,840 starting something yeah starting something new yeah, I I love to 539 00:32:46,850 --> 00:32:49,760 be a part of that, you know, but I recognize and this is like the 540 00:32:49,770 --> 00:32:54,890 the, you know, the tension of of pastoral ministry is that we we 541 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:56,720 got to help people on the train, right. 542 00:32:56,790 --> 00:32:59,490 We gotta we gotta help the Peters of the world who are 543 00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:01,540 like, no, let's build a tent and stay where we are. 544 00:33:01,650 --> 00:33:07,040 Let's be comfortable, right, to to help people like Peter that 545 00:33:07,050 --> 00:33:11,690 are, that are in our midst, who are, you know, just as important 546 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:16,180 to the life of our church. How do we how we help them along 547 00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:17,660 the way? Like we're all on the train 548 00:33:17,670 --> 00:33:19,610 together. Some of us are maybe on the 549 00:33:19,620 --> 00:33:21,790 front end, like looking out the window ready to go. 550 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,470 Several others of us are maybe at the back being like, I don't 551 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:25,970 want to, I don't know. Where we're going, but the 552 00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:28,390 trains leaving the station, Yeah, I think that's the point, 553 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,190 right? And like, I had a mentor friend 554 00:33:32,990 --> 00:33:35,400 of my who who died. Like that's the line he would 555 00:33:35,410 --> 00:33:36,860 use. Like, hey, we would love to have 556 00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:39,440 you on the train, but the train is leaving the station. 557 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,400 And I think that's like, that's the this moment for Peter here 558 00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:49,590 is it's a moment of recognizing, OK, God's got this plan. 559 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,540 And I can't see all of it. And I certainly can't tell you 560 00:33:54,550 --> 00:33:58,480 exactly where it ends, but it's this moment of all right, God's 561 00:33:58,490 --> 00:34:00,330 the one who's who's driving this thing. 562 00:34:00,630 --> 00:34:06,270 And you know, I guess we're along for the ride. 563 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,800 Like that is kind of this moment for him where he's, he's 564 00:34:09,810 --> 00:34:15,389 wrestling out that tension of wanting to wanting to have a 565 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,440 plan and know it, to understand it fully, and also wanting to 566 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,370 trust God and God's plan and figure it out. 567 00:34:24,139 --> 00:34:29,190 So I think the the main, one of the main things too that they 568 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:34,830 all have to wrestle with is the fact that like so Jesus has 569 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,210 declared that he's, you know, that that he's the Son of man, 570 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,130 which is like so messianic language. 571 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,449 He has declared that he needs to die and that he will be raised 572 00:34:47,780 --> 00:34:52,880 again, like redemption, resurrections, not like that 573 00:34:52,889 --> 00:34:55,469 wasn't a common thing, common language. 574 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:01,190 So certainly really new, but they, the disciples don't know 575 00:35:01,380 --> 00:35:03,610 the entirety of it at this point. 576 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,310 Yeah. And so I think they're wrestling 577 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,030 out what you and I, what all of us still continue to wrestle 578 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,370 out, which is, you know, we we see only the pieces that God 579 00:35:12,420 --> 00:35:16,050 unfolds before us to see, like we see what God allows us to 580 00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:19,410 see. And he's writing this big 581 00:35:19,420 --> 00:35:21,500 picture for us. Even just think of our church, 582 00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:25,510 he's writing this big picture for us and we get to see the 583 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,550 pieces that he's unlike revealing to us. 584 00:35:28,610 --> 00:35:33,660 Hmm. It's our job to pray and like I 585 00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:40,200 would like to pray and fast and place ourselves together in in a 586 00:35:40,210 --> 00:35:44,940 position where we can, as he reveals it, we like where we can 587 00:35:44,950 --> 00:35:48,260 see it, where we're ready to grab ahold of it and go and 588 00:35:48,270 --> 00:35:49,370 move. Take the next. 589 00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:54,430 Step and yeah, do the thing, but it's only the next step and we 590 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,410 might not know the 3rd to next step, right? 591 00:35:57,420 --> 00:36:01,630 We might know one, but that's the constant challenge for the 592 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,800 disciples is like they're called to take the next step without 593 00:36:05,810 --> 00:36:09,010 knowing 10 steps down the line, and we're called to take the 594 00:36:09,020 --> 00:36:11,050 next step without knowing 10 steps down the line. 595 00:36:11,140 --> 00:36:12,950 We see what God allows us to see. 596 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,280 It's our job to position ourselves to be ready to receive 597 00:36:17,290 --> 00:36:21,330 it. Trust that it is God's calling 598 00:36:21,340 --> 00:36:23,360 and leading and then go and do it. 599 00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:26,370 Not like human hair and make a committee and try to decide 600 00:36:26,380 --> 00:36:29,930 like, is this God or not? Like we got to be ready to to do 601 00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:34,190 the thing, but that's it. We don't need to know like 3 602 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,670 days after Jesus's death, he's going to rise again. 603 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:39,840 Like the disciples are going to wrestle all of that out, and 604 00:36:39,850 --> 00:36:42,020 then it's going to happen, and then they will look back and 605 00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:45,520 they'll tell it as good news. Yeah, but they've got to be 606 00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:47,540 ready. We need to wrestle it out and we 607 00:36:47,550 --> 00:36:49,480 need to position ourselves to be ready as well. 608 00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:53,960 Yeah, I, I think it's in Psalm 119. 609 00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:58,580 This is that kind of the famous line, you know, thy word is a 610 00:36:58,590 --> 00:37:04,280 lamp unto my feet. And, and like a number of years 611 00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:08,660 ago, I really thought about like that image that's there is that 612 00:37:08,670 --> 00:37:12,880 it's, you know, they didn't have flashlights back in back in 613 00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:16,100 those days. But the difference between a 614 00:37:16,110 --> 00:37:18,620 lamp and a flashlight, right? You know, if you have like a, a 615 00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:20,720 really bright, you know, one of those like, you know, like 616 00:37:20,730 --> 00:37:23,960 police officer flashlights, they can see like hundreds of 617 00:37:23,970 --> 00:37:28,530 hundreds of meters away, right? Versus a lamp, which in the dark 618 00:37:28,540 --> 00:37:32,240 of night allows you to see maybe a step or two ahead of you so 619 00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:35,670 that you're not going to like step on something or fall into a 620 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,070 pit or whatever. Right. 621 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,270 And, and I've often thought about our walk in that same way 622 00:37:41,340 --> 00:37:46,370 of, of like God shows us just enough to take the next couple 623 00:37:46,380 --> 00:37:49,370 steps. And the, the, the rest of it 624 00:37:49,540 --> 00:37:52,910 future facing is, is faith. And it's. 625 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,610 Yeah. Yeah, it's a great analogy. 626 00:37:56,730 --> 00:38:02,080 And also, just like I think good to say, hard to live out. 627 00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:03,920 Hard to live out. Yes. 628 00:38:03,970 --> 00:38:09,800 Yeah, Yeah. Any other thoughts on this 629 00:38:09,810 --> 00:38:12,100 passage? Anything you didn't get to say 630 00:38:12,110 --> 00:38:14,460 on Sunday that you want to say no? 631 00:38:14,750 --> 00:38:17,600 Probably a lot we're going to pick up. 632 00:38:17,610 --> 00:38:26,070 So just to say like the transfiguration passage ends in 633 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:33,380 36 verse 36 and then in 37 is like immediately the next day 634 00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:35,420 when they came down from the mountain. 635 00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:39,180 So I think the, the one thing that I would say in preparation 636 00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:46,180 for that is we all know that mountaintop experiences do end, 637 00:38:46,290 --> 00:38:49,020 hmm. And in many ways, like need to 638 00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:58,770 end and we need to come back down the mountain and, um, we 639 00:38:58,780 --> 00:39:05,150 need to, you know, call it re enter real life or whatever 640 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,630 language you would use to describe that moment. 641 00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:14,330 And I think the beauty of this mountaintop experience, Jesus is 642 00:39:14,340 --> 00:39:19,790 mountain top experience is that it's I quoted Fred Craddock when 643 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,130 when I was talking about this is it's not this beautiful, 644 00:39:25,270 --> 00:39:32,200 picturesque, calm, peaceful, sit by the quiet lake like, you 645 00:39:32,210 --> 00:39:36,960 know, happy, whatever moment it, it is filled with conversation 646 00:39:36,970 --> 00:39:41,330 about the most real life thing you could imagine, right. 647 00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:45,900 And that's Jesus death like the realest, rawest, most painful 648 00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:49,420 piece about life. That's the mountaintop 649 00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:52,000 experience. And I think what the what Luke 650 00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:55,120 wants us to see. I think what God is doing in 651 00:39:55,130 --> 00:40:00,390 this moment is like this is the this is, this is, this is Jesus 652 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,520 descending the mountain. This is God descending the 653 00:40:03,530 --> 00:40:08,920 mountain. To lift humanity up, right. 654 00:40:08,930 --> 00:40:14,310 So like, we, we talk about not some people, not we, we don't, I 655 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,900 don't talk about this, but you know, some people talk about 656 00:40:16,970 --> 00:40:20,860 religion as this like ascent up a mountain. 657 00:40:21,570 --> 00:40:26,540 And I think the weakest argument or the weakest, like example is 658 00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:28,960 like, well, every different religion is just a different 659 00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:32,740 side going up the same mountain. And I go like, why does 660 00:40:32,750 --> 00:40:37,100 Christianity still in my mind? Like why is it still such a 661 00:40:37,110 --> 00:40:42,790 powerful example of a religion that is so different from any 662 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:43,570 other? And I can't remember. 663 00:40:43,580 --> 00:40:46,170 This is not like I I was not the person to come up with this. 664 00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:51,380 I've heard other people say it, and it's because for once, 665 00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:55,500 religion isn't about humanity ascending a mountain in an 666 00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:59,110 attempts to find God. It's about God descending the 667 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,100 mountain to lift humanity up. Yeah. 668 00:41:02,110 --> 00:41:04,640 And like this is that moment and Christianity where like Jesus 669 00:41:04,650 --> 00:41:07,800 goes up the mountain, God's presence is there and they 670 00:41:07,810 --> 00:41:12,040 discuss his death and then he descends to do it, like to 671 00:41:12,050 --> 00:41:17,100 actually accomplish what he set out to accomplish, to die, to be 672 00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:21,950 raised to new life and to lift humanity up out of the mess, 673 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,130 like out of sin and to redeem and to restore. 674 00:41:27,180 --> 00:41:30,890 So it's no longer like think about like Peter, James and 675 00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:33,310 John. I'm like these dudes last human 676 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,690 beings to ascend a mountain to meet with God. 677 00:41:35,940 --> 00:41:38,640 Like from here on out, it's like it's all about God descending 678 00:41:38,650 --> 00:41:42,410 the mountain and being with humanity. 679 00:41:42,740 --> 00:41:46,750 And so that's what we're going next week is like the descent 680 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,090 and what that means and what immediately starts to happen. 681 00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:54,240 But I just think it's such a hopeful image of, you know, 682 00:41:54,250 --> 00:41:59,340 Christianity is just absolutely not the ascent of mind, ascent 683 00:41:59,350 --> 00:42:02,320 of intellect, ascent of effort or will. 684 00:42:02,490 --> 00:42:06,780 It is God's intentional dissent. I love. 685 00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:09,070 That and Like this captures that beautifully. 686 00:42:09,180 --> 00:42:13,870 That's so good. Well, that sounds like a really 687 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,980 good place to to close out. I agree. 688 00:42:17,090 --> 00:42:22,120 So we are back kind of it's now the fall season, we're back in 689 00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:25,500 the swing of things. And so we're excited to continue 690 00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:29,800 on in Luke and we will do that September moving forward. 691 00:42:30,780 --> 00:42:34,130 If you have any questions, if you something comes to mind from 692 00:42:34,140 --> 00:42:37,110 today or from Sunday, you can send it to 693 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,990 questions@courtrightchurch.org. And we usually check that before 694 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,430 you record just to make sure that if if someone has sent 695 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,630 something that we can do our best to include it in our in our 696 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,330 discussion. But other than that, we hope you 697 00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:54,360 have a fantastic week and we'll see you next time.