Hey, friends. Welcome to another episode of
KPC Podcast, which is just slowly becoming the name of this
thing. We're grateful to have you with
us and talking through some of the questions related to Sunday
morning and more specifically related to the passage that we
preach through toward greater application in your life.
And one of the things that we've been asking for is some
feedback. We've been asking for questions
and we've been asking for comments to be sent to questions
at KPC. Our.
Church.org. There you go.
One day I'll learn this. And we have both of those this
morning. So we received a good question
in that we're going to discuss in a little bit, and we also
received some feedback from last week's episode.
So last week's rules were a little bit reversed.
I got to sit interviewing Lindsey after she preached and
we talked around the idea of Sabbath.
One of the questions that we left you with was just describe
some of your own Sabbath practices.
Hmm. And I think in a in a hopes that
we would be able to encourage each other to practice Sabbath a
little bit more intentionally, we received some suggestions or
some comments on what's working for some folks.
So yeah, this is great. There's one family gave just
like a little mini list of some of the things that they've been
doing, which is great. They mentioned no tech Sundays,
that is. That's a hard one to keep with
kids needing computers for school.
But loosely they try to do no YouTube videos, digital
entertainment. So that's that's one thing they
do. They do Sunday walks with the
dog in an off leash area. They do visits with visits with
family, which is always great. They do Sunday evening board
game night, which is that's great.
Goes hand in hand with the no test.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's one of our
gotos. Like pull out, Uno, skip bow,
things like that, Yeah. I have Uno card remaining from
my Uno deck like it's just. Lost.
Oh no, we see. We have we have three.
I could let you borrow one. We have Mario Kart, Uno, OHS.
We have Uno all Wild, which is like all the cards are crazy,
OK, and then just regular Uno. That's chaotic.
Yeah, Yeah, that's great. And then finally upper they
supper is simple with smoothies and fresh from the oven muffins,
which I love. I love that it's like barely,
you know, you don't have to cook a crazy meal or something like
that to. Do you like that?
Yeah, I like all of those. I would love to include all of
those practices in my Sabbath practice.
Yeah. It's interesting how we've taken
a lot of those. So I would, I think I'm safe in
saying none of those were in the original iterations of the law
around Sabbath. However, all of them make sense
in terms of what like a biblical view of Sabbath would include.
And so I love that piece. Like there's intentional time
together with family. So there's cultivating good rich
relationships. They mention Sunday, so I'm like
I'm assuming churches in there. There's intentional, say, like
fasting from technology, you know, to use that language,
which is different than fasting from food, but to intentionally
go without something for the sake of something else.
And so, you know, you do see people who still observe this
observe the Sabbath. Would, you know, I think
consider in some ways technology to be work of some sort, right?
And so that's off the table. And I just think that's great.
I can go a day without your phone.
It's hard and like I also I love that.
So the smoothies and muffins, there's you've got a plan for
that. There needs to be preparation
ahead of time. You got to think it through.
It's intentional and you're trying not to cook like we're
just. We're not.
Working. It's simple.
It's exactly Yeah, I love all of those.
If you could include one of those, just try one of those.
This week. I'm gonna try the smoothie one.
That's great. Awesome.
So we got some questions for Luke Six.
Yeah, still in Luke 6. So this week we're only what
this is only our second week in look 6 right, Just preparing.
That's right. It's good.
But it's gonna get into some real intense stuff at the church
here. We're going to be doing our
community Bible study starting this week and throughout the
month of May and it will be exclusively dealing with some of
the the segments from Luke chapter 6.
And this is sort of the the precursor.
It's sort of as you described as anti right described.
Yeah, it's sort of the the huddle.
It's the huddle with the with the, the football team, soccer
team or hockey team or whatever before, before the, you know,
they're given the game plan, but you got to gather around first,
right? And that's kind of what's
happening here. Jesus calls the disciples.
He calls the 12 particularly distinguishes between disciples
broader and apostles, who in this case was was 12, which
we'll get into that a little bit more later.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that there were only 12,
period. But so, yeah, there's a great
little game plan. And then you see this, you know,
this Kingdom moment where, you know, Jesus is just there and
people are being healed and receiving, you know, receiving
cures from impure spirits and just power, the power of the
Kingdom just flowing out all over the place, which is like
pretty cool. So got all this happening right
before these really these really meaningful teachings that Jesus
provides. And so we have this unique
little moment here. And you touched on this idea of
I of the symbolism, the the you check with the alarm bell of
like, hey, this is like this should be ringing some bells
When you hear some of this language, language of the 12
language, you know, that would hearken back to the 12 tribes of
Israel and language that would bring us back to many parts of
the Scriptures from Genesis to to beyond to the kings.
But particularly here there is this image of Moses ascending
the mountain and returning and and that that seems to be the
most poignant image that is created there.
That would be fair to say. Yeah, yeah, I think so.
I think certainly going up the mountain, whether it be it Moses
or, you know, I think certainly Moses going up the mountain to
receive the 10 commandments is probably the most significant,
one of the most significant, you know, moments in in biblical
Israel's history. Yeah.
So yeah. Yeah, so, you know, cause Jesus,
in some ways he, he is, he's ascending.
He comes back down and he's like, OK, we gotta talk.
You know, like there's, there is definitely some of that there.
So one of the questions that I had, this is not one of our, our
reader questions, but one that I thought was a, a good place to
start was, and I, I know we were kind of veering into the, you
know, speculating a little bit, but I think it's, it's a
worthwhile speculation of how would the hearers have heard
this? How would the, the early
hearers, the early readers, those who were present, you
know, let's say for the first, you know, 1st century post, you
know, post Jesus during that time, how would they have seen
these events? For those who would have
certainly had a the the the Jews would have certainly had a, a
framework for the, the symbolism.
There are a lot of when you read through the the entire Bible,
there are a lot of numbers are very important.
A lot of a lot of repeated patterns are very important.
They are. They symbolize something that's
very meaningful. And so would they have received
this as, like, deeply offensive? Would this have been scandalous?
Would this have provoked curiosity?
Would this have given them hope? Yeah.
Like I'm just trying to think through what this would have
meant to the people. So I feel like the safe answer
is just yes to. All of those, right?
Yeah, You know, I, yeah, I, I do wanna be.
On the one hand, I, I think there's a fairly straightforward
answer. And I, I think the answer is
yes. I think people would have seen
what Jesus is doing and that would have stirred in them
something. See, that's not the same thing
for everybody, right? So the crowds follow him,
obviously, like the crowd here is growing.
So not only do we have like all over Judea, we also have
Jerusalem being included here. Like the religious for, for you
know, for Israel, for Jewish followers of God like this, this
is everything happens around temple.
And so they're coming out from like the centre of the religious
universe in their understanding to see Jesus, to hear his
teaching, to be healed, to see what's happening, to see other
people being healed. Like for whatever reason, be it
curiosity or, you know, commitment, like conviction or
judgment, anger, concern, you know, you see all of it.
At least I think we see all of it not only from Judea and
Jerusalem, but now from from Tyre and Sidon as well, which
were, I believe Phoenician provinces of Rome.
And I might be wrong on that. Somebody can Fact Check me and
and let me know. But distinctly not Jewish or not
overtly Jewish areas. And so like the crowds growing
here. So I think it's fair to say in
Luke's telling of the story that people are hearing about Jesus,
and at very least they're curious.
Yeah, right. So they're going out to see him
to here to witness what's happening.
And you know, I, I think there's some deep conviction in certain
individuals. So you have the women who the
woman who reaches out and touches Jesus cloak because she
just, she wants to be healed, you know, and be it like a last
ditch effort or full faith or, you know, maybe some mixture of
both, which feels pretty human. Something's happening and people
wanna get close to to Jesus and experience it for themselves.
And then there's also individuals and groups together,
like we see the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who at
this point are like plotting. They've begun to plot against
Jesus. After seeing, I think
particularly the the healing of the paralytic and, and the
interaction about the forgiveness of sin, you know,
there there's certainly a reputation being built.
Yeah. So I think again, Luke wants to
make it very clear that that people are seeing what Jesus is
doing. And either they are intrigued,
curious, convicted, convinced, or their, you know, to some
degree plotting part of this, this religious group that, you
know, can't allow for this to happen.
It's it's, you know, it's, it's not happening that maybe it's in
their mind like the way it should or with the people who
should be involved and included, you know, why aren't we in?
There's a little bit of that going on.
So I think it's fair to say that people are seeing what Jesus is
doing and recognizing it as something significant and
powerful. And yet we also see this, you
know, in John, I think in John's Gospel, especially the way that
narrative progresses, there are these constant lines, like right
up until Jesus's death, the disciples still didn't fully
understand. They still don't fully
understand what's about to happen.
But you know, when they see Jesus post resurrection, then
they start like things start to fully click.
And in the years that follow after, you assume that I can
imagine them going, Oh, my goodness, how did we miss that?
Right. Just sitting around, remember
when what? Like that was so much more
significant than we could have seen in the moment.
So like, I think there's some of that as well going on.
That's why I say like, yes to all of it.
Yeah. I think the thing that is clear,
I think probably fairly universally agreed on, is like
Luke is making it clear here. So I think in the writing of it,
Luke wants us to see Moses. Yeah, Like that's intentional.
Whether everybody in the crowd as Jesus came down from the
mountain, we're like, this is Moses.
It's a new. Like that's a that's a stretch
to say like, yeah, definitively, yes, absolutely.
What we do know is that it's an intentional move for Luke.
He wants us to see it, and it is indicative of the time, Like the
mountain was the place of revelation from God.
And it was seen as in many ways, a place of prayer, place where
God is close, a place where God delivers messages to his people,
and a place where we go to find out what God is doing and what
we're doing and what needs to change in all of those things.
So I do think that that would have been instilled in certainly
the Jewish observers be like, this is maybe not, you know,
Messiah, Son of God, Son of man fully, God fully.
Like maybe not all of those things, but I do think they
would have been going ohhhhh, something's happening.
I, I'm just thinking this out in real time, but I also wonder if
there's a little bit of a, a kind of a political underpinning
with, you know, contextually, Moses is in the wilderness
leading, you know, leading God's people to the promised land
right now for Israel, it probably feels like they're in
the wilderness, even though they are settled in this land, but
they're under Roman occupation. And, and you have this, you
know, Moses type figure, OK, what's, what's the message he's
going to deliver from, from on high?
You know, there's, there's, there's a little bit of that,
you know, as we've seen leading up to Easter, this OK, what is,
is this going to be a political movement that this person is now
going to to bring that will speak to our current paradigm
and reality? I think that's, I think that's
good. I think that's good.
There's this line and I can't remember exactly where it is.
It's gonna bother me, but in part of the workings out of the
law, the the line is so that it may go well with you.
And, you know, I I do think people are sitting there going
like, well, things aren't going particularly well for us right
now. What's that about?
And they're. I do think there be some
expectation or longing for. Yeah, absolutely.
The whole zealot movement born out of things are not the way
they're supposed to be. We need to change them.
The only way to change them is by military force.
So way you go, right? And what's, what's kind of wild
and without, you know, getting too far into it, like when Jesus
starts teaching like these, these teachings are are very
charged, you know, even like love, love for enemies just
being one. Yeah, you know, like that the,
the the things that he then brings are probably not what
they anticipated or expected, but critical, critical teachings
for followers of Jesus. There's no way to know this but
like I I do think post sermon there would be a lot more people
disappointed than like pre sermon.
They're all riled up. They're yeah, you can imagine.
And then after they're like, are we sure Yeah, because that
sounds a lot harder than I was anticipating in not the right
ways. Right.
Like it it it does like it cuts to the core of our expectation
and even some of the language and math you like you have heard
it said. But I say to you what Jesus is
ramping this stuff up not in a legalistic make it or break it,
do it or die kind of way, but in.
A reframing a Yeah, an expansion.
Yeah. Well, and again, going with
this, this idea of, you know, like Moses coming down from the
mountain with the 10 commandments, the 10
commandments are, are, are good principles to live by.
Like, you know, generally, you know, there's a reason why
they've stood the test of time as as good, you know, like
don't, yeah, don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, you know,
don't like honor your parents, right.
And and like, but in some ways they're hard to do.
Some of them. Hopefully it's not too difficult
to not murder. But like, you know, there are
there. They're not.
You can read them. Be like, yeah, I could.
I could do that. I could I could abide by those,
you know, generally speaking, but then Jesus like his
teachings. There's so much harder which
we're we're gonna unpack more in the weeks ahead.
But so we don't wanna, you know, jump too far ahead, but there is
there is some interesting, you know, parallels and then not
parallels. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, absolutely. And like we're gonna read, We're
gonna read lines like that says love your enemies, do good to
them, lend to them without expecting to be repaid.
Like we just like there's so much of what we would sort of
consider to be like quote. And if you're listening to this,
I'm doing air quotes like modern sensibilities be like, well,
surely that doesn't apply anymore.
And I go, well, yeah, you know, like, OK, well, you gotta take
some of this stuff seriously. Yeah, You know, so yeah, it's,
it's gonna get difficult in in some very real personal and
corporate ways as individuals and as the church.
But I think in some, yeah, it's just beautiful ways that have
great potential to lead toward life, so.
I'm excited. I am.
Too. It's going to be fun, especially
because some of the most intense teachings are on the weeks when
we get to discuss it with like 100 other people in the room.
And that'll be cool. That's great.
OK, so switching gears a little bit, we talked a little bit
about disciple and apostle. Hmm.
So a disciple is a follower of Jesus, is someone who is, you
know, like there were, you know, a rabbi would have many
disciples who were who were adherence to their way of life
and teaching. Yes, yeah.
And and so an apostle is a word that means like messenger sent
one and and Jesus distinguishes between the disciples and the
apostles here, the disciple, a larger group of people, apostles
in this case, 12 and he and then they we named them and you know,
yeah, you got. All the all the different, all
the different guys, some of them who they get a little bit of,
they get a little bit of a, you know, a story alongside them.
You know, like Simon, who was called the zealot Judas, not
that Judas and then Judas, yes, that Judas, you know, but it's
worth, I think, talking about that word apostle.
It's a word that in some Christian circles is reserved
for only the biblical Canon. There, there are some that would
say once, once the church was established, they would say
they're they're those were the apostles.
You're not an apostle. I'm not an apostle that's done
that the Apostolic era is over. And then on the other hand,
there is a, another group. I don't mind naming it because I
think it's, it's just worthwhile saying it's, it's so there's
the, the new Apostolic reformation and I don't want to
make it ultimately about them, but I, I think it's, it's worth
as, as a, as a launching pad to talk a little bit.
What, what actually is an apostle?
What isn't an apostle? How do we think about apostles
today? And yeah, how, how does our
understanding contrast with some of the understandings that are
out there today? That's a broad question.
I think we can narrow a little bit.
Maybe maybe I should narrow it down by saying or by asking,
when you look at say the very conservative use of or or lack
thereof of the term apostle, how do we, how do we see that?
And then how do we see maybe a perhaps overly, overly overly
liberal use of that term? I don't know.
Yeah. No, I think this is helpful
because I like I even in prepping for this sermon, we
talked a little bit on Thursday about that reality.
Just, you know, folks in our, even in our congregation very
likely having different views and understandings and history
with this type of word, right? I think there's a difference,
though, between what the church would historically say or call
an office. So the office of apostle, the
office of prophet, priest, changer.
Yeah, yeah. So there's a difference between
the office and then maybe what we would call gifts that are in
line with those like, you know, and what I would say, you know,
I wouldn't call any anybody that I know in my life.
I wouldn't name them capital P profit, right.
But I would say that there are some people in my life who are
prophetic. Yeah, but that's their like one
of their gifts is to be able to speak prophetically into peoples
lives. Now usually those are the people
who actually try to avoid naming themselves profit.
Like, you know, typically the ones who come the boldest and
quickest with a prophetic word are the ones who don't actually
have gifting in that area or who want to take on the mantle of
profit. It's the people who have a fear
and trembling that like, Oh my gosh, I, I, I think I have
something. I think, I think God has said
something to me or has, you know, that there is a
weightiness to it. And if we don't have the
weightiness to it, I've got I've got concerns.
Absolutely, yeah. So you know, I had, I had
somebody like early on in, early on in ministry, like just in
leadership in general. But early on when I was in in
ministry, somebody said, you know, just when you when you
enter into a new situation, context, organization, church,
whatever it is, go slowly and take extra precaution with, you
know, people who try to win over too much influence from you too
fast. Hmm.
And, you know, I have had interesting conversations over
the years with individuals. You know, I could look back and
say, Oh yeah, OK, alright. Yeah, like very first person
trying to gain too much info, like too much influence or too
much of an air, just too much. Yeah, authority, be it whatever
it is. So I like, I think there's a
slowed down way in which to approach the gifts that are
named in Scripture, right? So don't rush to name it for
yourself. I think that's a great place to
start #1 So office, I think the let me try a as quick an answer
as possible here. I think there are again offices
that we would consider are accomplished in and through the
person of Jesus ultimately. And so I I brought because I
knew we had a we had heads up. I had a heads up on this
question. I.
Was wondering why that was. So in our denomination, we're
Reformed. So we're Presbyterian, which is
part of the Reformed tradition. And we have in in our tradition
what are called subordinate standards and their subordinate
standards because they are lesser than their subordinate to
the Bible. So they're not inspired by God.
They're not on the same level, but they are agreed to be the
confessions creeds theologies corporately worked out that
capture a shared faith. And one of the things in the one
of the questions in the the Westminster Confession of Faith,
which is one of our subordinate standards as Presbyterian Church
in Canada is, um, question 42, which I'm going to try to not
say all the ifs and F and doth like it, it, it is.
It when was this written? Not for not not.
It's been a minute. So the question 42 is why was
our mediator? So why was Jesus called Christ?
And the answer is, our mediator was called Christ, because he
was anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure, and so set
apart and fully furnished with all authority and ability to
execute the offices of prophet, priest, and king of his Church
in the estate, both of his humiliation and exaltation.
So in who he was as human and who he is as divine as God, in
his death, in his life, in his resurrection life, in and
through all that, that that Jesus has full authority and
full ability to execute offices of prophet, priest and king.
So Jesus is the ultimate once and for all prophet, priest and
king. So prophet, he speaks on behalf
of God. He is the full word, so to use
language that become for Christians a word of God.
But revelation of God, He's the fullest revelation of who God is
toward humanity. We understand in the person of
Jesus. So he is to the fullest extent
prophet speaking on behalf of God as God, he is priest.
He is the high priest, the one who with his own death and
resurrection paid for. And we don't have to get into
today another episode theories of atonement, but you know,
fulfills the role of high priest in his death and so does away
with sacrifice. And then he is king rules over
his church and the world also in here as mediator as one who who
constantly intervenes and works on our behalf toward God right.
And then it goes in and I'm not going to read all of it, but how
does Christ execute the office of profit of priest of king?
So the the the confession would say that Jesus is prophet,
priest and king. And I think the church, we would
probably agree that there are still giftings in those areas as
well that are useful to the church today.
Yeah, that are that continue to be displayed in people.
But we know, or at least we need to know and understand that that
Jesus is ultimately prophet, priest, and king.
He defines what that is and and how that rolls out in his
Kingdom. And our giftedness is
subordinate in that sense to Jesus's role in those in those
places. So we don't step into those
offices like Jesus does and it is not the same because Jesus is
who Jesus is and these apostles are are human.
But in some way, I think I have a similar understanding of
apostle that these 12 because we're dealing with Luke 6 and
not so after Judas, after Judith dies, they replaced Judas so
that there continues to be 12, which just adds weight to the to
the number. So refer often to Paul as an
apostle. Right.
So I think that which which at least initially got himself in
trouble doing it right, like it was, it was even debated within
the early church, the Jerusalem church and you know, drag Paul
in front of them and they're trying to figure out who is this
guy and is he actually an apostle?
Because this this office of apostle does seem to be linked
to these specific individuals who were literal eyewitnesses to
the accounts to the life of Jesus is teaching.
And then who Jesus anoints to bear his same message into the
world with his authority and to carry on the found really the
foundation of the church. So I don't think that anybody
steps into that same office of apostle in the same way that
these did or that Paul did, because that serve that office
served a role in a very specific moment of the church's life.
Now equally though, I don't think that the gifting of like
Apostolic giftedness or gifting that is toward apostle ship
being a messenger, if you're just kind of carve away all of
what we can create something into and just use the language,
which is what I try to do on Sunday.
I think there is something for every Christian to take away
from the language of being and becoming a messenger.
One who bears the life of the Kingdom in our bodies with us as
we go. One who has authority to speak
and to act and to do the things of the Kingdom.
And you even see that in so I would just pull up Romans 16
where Paul is referring. He's doing all these big
greetings and, and he refers to to Phoebe, who I believe we
understand as the, the, the messenger of the letter that she
came and would read the letter and, and in some ways interpret
the letter. And, and so in some ways she is,
is doing an Apostolic role there.
And then and later on it refers to Junior, who is someone who is
named as an outstanding among the apostles, right.
So, so there there is. There's something kind of cool
about. I just wanted to name two women,
especially because I don't think, you know, some people
will say, well, it's just there were 12 men and that that was,
it was like, actually, no, there, there were some Apostolic
figures who were women, right? Right, so we need 12 elders to
continue to rule the church and they can only be men.
And away we go. Which is a completely different
topic for another. Day for sure, but I just
thought, you know, like it's the yeah, the the office of like the
Apostolic nature of of God's people should not ever end
right. You know, and then in in
Ephesians 4, Paul like kind of lists what we call like apest
the apostle, the the profits. That's what I pulled up.
Yeah, go ahead. Now these are the gifts Christ
gave to the church, yes, right. So that would seem to indicate
some level of those giftings still continue, right?
The apostles, prophets, evangelists, the pastors and the
teachers there. And this is what people think.
This is what people need to hear as well.
Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and
build up the church, the body of Christ.
This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith
and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord,
measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.
Yeah. So there's like there's a
continuation there that I don't think we've attained.
Definitely right. And but I also think like
listen, like there's there's, like you said, use your word,
which is a great word. There's weightiness to it.
Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work.
And that's where I think we, this is where I land harder on,
uh, yeah. You know, embracing the call of
the apostles to be witnesses, to be messengers to, to carry it in
our bodies, to live it out day-to-day.
Because I think we can guess, guess Christians.
We can often get caught up in the benefits of Christ without
bearing the full weight of responsibility of Christ, which
like New Begin works out. So I brought another book
because. I thought they were decoration.
Yeah, no, they're not just. They're not just props.
New begins. Got this and I'm gonna have to
find it. Yeah.
So. OK, so he's got this great way
of talking and writing. So he says, uh, to see.
So what he would call Christians are chosen bearers of like the
promised blessing. Hmm.
And so he says bearers, not exclusive beneficiaries, right.
So we there's a responsibility to go and do the things of the
Kingdom, not just to benefit from the things of the Kingdom.
And we like we can. I mean, I just think, and maybe
this is like, maybe me, like I was just like, can I just soak
up the benefits for a minute? Like, right there is there is
benefit to living inside the Kingdom.
Like, let's not say there isn't there is.
There ought to be like it is a new way of living that is life
giving to toward flourishing might not look exactly like what
want or expect, but there's a benefit to knowing Jesus.
We can kind of sit in it though and be like, oh great, I made
it. I'm here.
I'm gonna enjoy these benefits. And that's where he says no, you
bear the Kingdom. You don't benefit from the
Kingdom. What you do, you do benefit.
You also bear it. Toward other application with
that word bear is that it? It is.
It's a burden in some way. It's like that.
There is a like, yeah, there, there there should be a, a
burden to someone who who is, who has received a word from the
Lord. Same with same with someone with
Apostolic gifting. That there should be a a
weightiness and a burden that is theirs to bear.
There's a weightiness and you and I know this there and we've
talked about it. There's a weightiness to
preaching. Yes, right there.
And that's not that's not to say that we don't enjoy it.
Like, I love what I get to do and I absolutely love preaching,
but there is a weight to it that's hard to describe in the
same way. And it's not, it's not the same
like, in the same way that I like, I don't know, the weight
of, let's say, like a paramedic who walks into a situation be
like, am I going to have to say, am I going to literally, am I
going to have to save somebody's life today?
Yeah, like a firefighter, right. Am I gonna have to pull somebody
out of a burning? But there is a way to do that
that I have no idea of. There's a witness to these
things. So Newbigin continues, and this
is the open secret, which is his introduction to theology of
mission. And Nubian, I think, is
brilliant in helping the church understand healthy mission.
Like in our own backyard, yeah. And he lived it out.
He. Absolutely.
So that he wasn't just a thinker, he was a he was a doer.
And then wrote about. It missionary in India, part of
the monumental movement like Church of India that really
almost made, I don't know, maybe single handedly redefined what
it meant to be ecumenical in some really cool ways.
So he writes there and he's talking here about Israel being
elected and they're being a burden to that and his where
he's going to go. So the the the church Christians
being elected requires the like, there's a burden there, right?
So he says there lay the constant temptation again and
again. It had to be said that election
is for responsibility, not privilege.
Hmm. Again and again.
And and so like I said, you talk about, he says unfaithful Israel
had to be threatened with punishment because it was the
elect of God. And then he quotes from Amos,
you only have I known of all the families of the earth.
Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities.
So he says the meaning of Israel's election and of its
misunderstanding of it is depicted with the supreme
dramatic power in the story of Jonah.
And then he goes on to talk about how Jonah called the go to
Ninevah. He's like, absolutely not.
I'm going to go in the exact. And it's almost like it is.
It's poetic comedy, like I'm going to go in the exact
opposite direction and I'm going to flee as far as I possibly can
to a ridiculous degree. And, and yeah, so he ends up on
this ship and there's a massive storm.
He's hiding in the in the boat and the Pagan sailors are
praying to God for deliverance. Even in his rebellion.
He's he's he's, he's fulfilling his calling to be a witness to
who God like, to who the true God is.
And, and you know his anyways, the story unfolds.
The the city repents and then he gets mad about it exactly like
and, and there's but there is something about there that that
is, you know, it is, it is revealing of, of what has
happened in, you know, Israel's heart in that, you know, their
original call, their original call as a as a chosen people
were to be a blessing to the nations.
And so like my, my, one of my deepest hearts for our church
community, for all church communities really, but you
know, for us pastors here, like in our city, is that we would
fully embrace that same weighty election toward responsibility,
toward hard work for the sake of the other.
Because, you know, as cliche as it is, like good people die
every day without knowing Jesus, and also good people die every
day hungry, and good people die every day on the streets
houseless. And people are wrestling with
brokenness inside their homes. And we carry the weight of the
Kingdom in a way that is meant to push against those dark
places. So that's one of the things I
love, and I hope this came across like I do love this about
our church. I think that there's beauty in
sharing communion together, and I think there's beauty in
digging in the dirt on Saturday together like, you know, a bunch
of people were doing. We did, yeah, both those things
this past weekend, which is which is kind of great.
Right. But I think that in some ways
captures what we're, what we ought to be about.
So when we just returning back to that word apostle because
we've been talking around a little bit, but yeah, how do we
think about there there are some there are some streams that
would use that word as a as a title in the same way that, you
know, people might call you Pastor Grant or myself, Pastor
Justin, they would say I am Apostle Grant or Apostle Justin.
I'll never do that. Is that a clear enough answer?
Yeah, it's very clear. But, you know, more broadly is
that, you know, maybe just to be contrarian, if if you can, if
you can go read Ephesians 4 and see that there's an offer Office
of pastor. Yeah, could there not be a, a
category for, for saying some, you know, someone is more
pastoral, someone is more of a teacher, someone's more
Apostolic, someone's more of a profit.
So therefore, we're going to call them by their, by their,
their, their title. Primary gift.
Yeah, right. So here's my here's my $0.02
worth of, I don't know, 1 cent. My, my sense of it is I, I,
there is something in me that that pushes against it.
But equally, like, you know, I've, I've had good friends and
shared leading services over the years with Catholic priests who
love Jesus and who are doing incredible things.
And yeah, had was able to share in leading services together
while I was working as a chaplain in a psychiatric
hospital with a Catholic priest there.
You know who like I'm, I'm not saying, well, Jesus is the only
priest, you can't be priest. Hmm.
And equally I would say, well, like Peter talks about the
priesthood of all believers. So there's still that language
exists. And yet I would firmly say no,
Jesus is the fulfillment of that office of of priest.
Yeah. So, you know, I think there's
there's room there. My for me, the main, the main
thing is recognizing also, and it is maybe important to name
that. I think we see, we see this in
churches and cultures that I don't come from, you know, say
that for me, right, more predominantly in other countries
than Canada and in different cultures that I don't walk in
and, and understand. So I want to be careful with
that as well. And that's a good word, just
naming that. Yeah, I think though, if
somebody, if somebody is ordained a pastor by a body of
Christians, then that's something I'm gonna carry with
weight and I'm gonna respect with weight and sit with it.
Doesn't mean we're gonna agree on everything.
Absolutely not. Doesn't mean that we're not
gonna like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna just receive
absolutely everything you have to say necessarily.
But if, if a if a group of Christians have together
discerned in prayer and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to
lay like a a title or a mantle on somebody to call somebody to
use like our language to call somebody into that office that
role, then I think that's something we just have to carry
with with care and concern like just move carefully in it.
If it's something that a title that somebody takes on in and of
themselves, I'd be willing to say that.
I think that is just a problematic way to start.
Yes. OK.
So I think there's nuance there. Like I didn't ordain myself
pastor and I didn't call myself pastor until I was ordained.
And actually for me, like I don't, I don't go by reverend
because I actually think there's more weight to pastor.
Yes, I I feel it, at least for myself.
Yeah, Reverend is a cultural meal much more like, much, much
more recent term within the Church and has much more to do
with power and authority than it does or ought to service and
weightiness to ministry. So that's why for me, But I I
try to as much as possible, I I go by Pastor Grant.
I think that makes more sense to people who don't have a sweet
clue, like walk into a church for the first time.
You're like, OK, like I what's going to make the most sense?
But actually personally I feel more weight to.
That I only ever use Reverend if I'm writing like official
communique, like as a reference letter for like the government
because it's it's a title that they understand.
Right. And so versus pastor, which is
can be more nebulous, yeah, but. Yeah, agreed, 100% agree.
And I do the same thing just like, you know, wear clerical
collar when I walk into sick kids.
Yeah, because it is helpful, right.
Like I'm here to serve and with some urgency.
So can we help one another? Fine.
We're trying to go, but I think it's worth, I think it's worth
saying like you and I were both were both ordained by groups of
Christians, by congregations, by denominations.
Like that is an important part of how we got to where we are is
that there were other people calling that out of us and
naming it and affirming it and then ultimately ordaining, yes.
And that I think continues to be a really important measure for
individuals of, of what I think is or can be.
So not we're not always right, not always like we don't know,
you know, but what is a healthy approach to these offices and
titles? And so to sort of cap, cap this
discussion, you know, when we look at some of these different
roles that Christians may or may, you know, may have
strengthened, may have lesser strengthen.
I think it's, I think it's fair to say, and this is I attribute
a little to this to some of the like church futurist thinkers,
guys like Alan Hirsch, who have done a lot of thinking about
this. Where, where they would, they
would say the Apostolic gifts that they describe in Ephesians
4, that is Jesus similar to prophet, priest, king Jesus is
the perfect embodiment of all of those.
And that as we become more Christ like, we should grow in
all those That as we are even just to go through them, as we
are growing in Christ likeness, we will feel a greater urge
toward being messengers of God's Kingdom.
That as we are growing in Christ that we will be more attuned to
who God is and what God might be saying in a circumstance.
As we grow in Christ, we will become more willing to share of
our faith with those around us. Evangelist, as we grow in our
faith, we will shepherd people better.
We will be better lovers of people that we will care better
for people as we, we will also become better pastors, teachers,
all these things, right? That we could all grow in these.
And yet I would still probably reserve a little bit of, you
know, thought that our, you know, some of our bent, some of
our, our, you know, some of our just perhaps even God-given
bents are going to be that we're going to be better at some of
those, you know, in this lifetime.
You know, like I can think of people I know that they wouldn't
call themselves apostle, but that they would, I would look at
that and I would look at them and say they have just like an
Apostolic spirit about them where they're just willing to go
where God calls them to go. They'll just get up and leave.
And I'm like, that's amazing. We need people like that in the
church. Yep.
Yeah. So I think the just to to double
down on what you've said, the main thing that we want people
doing is striving to be more like Jesus.
Yes. And in our attempts to be more
like Jesus, gifts are going to be given, right?
Anointing will happen. The Holy Spirit's gonna empower
you to do some pretty cool things, maybe some scary things,
maybe some things that you never would have found yourself doing.
But it's not because you're striving for a position is
because you are trying to be more like Jesus.
Make that, make that the goal, yeah.
Absolutely. That's good.
That feels like a pretty good place to close out.
It's. A wrap up.
Yeah, one of the lingering questions that I have that I
think we might tackle just to give a little bit of a taste of
over the next 4 weeks while we're doing the community Bible
study. One of the questions that I have
lingering from this kind of opening is, is this the same
sermon as the Sermon on the Mount, like Luke's version of
the Sermon on the Mount? We're gonna solve it.
Yeah, exactly. We're gonna crack.
It or is it different a different time, 2 sermons spoke
in different places, same place, all of it.
Some of those technical pieces that you never answer in a
sermon because you're like, this is not.
The time or place matter, but it nags at you a little.
Bit but it just goes like, Oh yeah, where are the places?
So I'm looking forward to it. I think it's gonna be fun and we
hope that this is encouraging to you.
Please, especially over these next 4 weeks, we're hoping that
more of you are are are listening to this podcast, not
because we want just more listen like views, whatever, but
because we think that between the sermon and the Bible study
and the podcast together. We're gonna cover a lot of
ground. Yeah, the goal is not to just
repeat all the things, but to have each of those different
places and spaces and modalities be a different angle on these
texts. So we hope you're along for the
ride and send us your questions as we go, even if you want to
look ahead and read some of these passages through Luke 6,
where we're going to be hanging through the community Bible
study through this month. Send us your questions in
advance if you'd like as well. But we hope that it's
encouraging for your day today, wherever it finds you, and we
will see you in the next episode.