1 00:00:00,260 --> 00:00:02,630 I had no Gray when I went into ministry. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,750 I mean, that's every. Yeah, my dad would say this. 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,140 My dad was. And my dad was older when he 4 00:00:07,150 --> 00:00:10,050 went into ministry. My dad was like 3637 when he 5 00:00:10,060 --> 00:00:12,310 went into ministry and he did not have great. 6 00:00:12,470 --> 00:00:17,860 So listen, I'm not saying. I'm not saying it's ministry, 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,670 but I'm also not not. Saying I'm not saying it's not 8 00:00:21,460 --> 00:00:24,310 just like the with us, God instead of God with us. 9 00:00:25,710 --> 00:00:28,760 We love that line from the devotion and it's it's not 10 00:00:28,770 --> 00:00:31,770 actually a different sentiment. It really isn't like it's it's 11 00:00:31,780 --> 00:00:35,660 the exact same thing, but reframing God is the with us. 12 00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:39,860 God was very comforting. To me, some some people have 13 00:00:41,350 --> 00:00:46,500 like, just like an ability to say the thing in a way that is 14 00:00:46,510 --> 00:00:50,810 not it's not rocket science. No, it's not different words. 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,880 No, but it is weirdly like it's worded differently. 16 00:00:53,890 --> 00:00:56,650 Yeah. And that I mean, he, he can do 17 00:00:56,660 --> 00:00:57,540 that. Darrell can do that. 18 00:00:57,550 --> 00:01:00,700 And so I've appreciated the devotion for that, I think 19 00:01:00,710 --> 00:01:03,140 especially. When I think that God with us, 20 00:01:03,250 --> 00:01:04,920 which is beautiful, it's a beautiful truth. 21 00:01:04,930 --> 00:01:07,600 It's a very radical claim and it's but it's something one 22 00:01:07,610 --> 00:01:10,920 we've heard a lot throughout our lives if you've grown up in 23 00:01:10,930 --> 00:01:16,150 church, but it's also like, it's almost like a, it's intellectual 24 00:01:16,340 --> 00:01:18,870 in some ways that God with us, right? 25 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,570 It's it, it takes on this. There's a distance from that by 26 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:27,310 saying he's the with us God by by making it present within this 27 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:28,330 moment. I don't know. 28 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:30,120 For me it took on new meaning in that. 29 00:01:30,130 --> 00:01:32,650 Way. So here's how it changes the 30 00:01:32,660 --> 00:01:39,030 meaning for me. So God with us still lands on 31 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,940 me? Sure. 32 00:01:40,950 --> 00:01:43,200 Like God with me. Oh, it's about me. 33 00:01:43,350 --> 00:01:45,760 Yeah, God with us is about us. Yeah, that's a really 34 00:01:45,770 --> 00:01:47,440 interesting. Way of looking and the with us, 35 00:01:47,450 --> 00:01:51,840 God puts all the attribute of who God is back on him. 36 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,540 Like it's back on God and on what God is doing and on the 37 00:01:54,550 --> 00:01:56,340 action. Yeah, God's action toward 38 00:01:56,350 --> 00:01:59,300 humanity as opposed to oh, this is just about me. 39 00:01:59,310 --> 00:02:01,820 Like it's another way of me thinking about God with me. 40 00:02:01,890 --> 00:02:05,400 Yes, it's oh, no, this is entirely still about what God is 41 00:02:05,410 --> 00:02:08,840 doing the with us. God still speaks to human 42 00:02:08,850 --> 00:02:12,420 condition and to me personally, absolutely, but in a way that 43 00:02:12,470 --> 00:02:17,840 flips it away from, I think like the danger of becoming self 44 00:02:17,850 --> 00:02:20,680 absorbed or more about me than it is about God. 45 00:02:20,730 --> 00:02:22,680 So that's the that's the flip for me. 46 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:25,020 It's like, Oh yeah, OK, this is still all about God. 47 00:02:25,370 --> 00:02:27,500 Yeah. Well, and then like again, 48 00:02:27,510 --> 00:02:29,600 making the verb right, kind of the beginning. 49 00:02:29,610 --> 00:02:36,880 It just, I think sometimes we take for granted what it must 50 00:02:36,890 --> 00:02:38,900 have meant for God to become human. 51 00:02:38,980 --> 00:02:42,860 Hmm, like I, I don't know, things aren't hard or easy with 52 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:44,680 God, like not the same way it is for humans. 53 00:02:44,690 --> 00:02:48,550 But I Can you imagine being the almighty of the universe, like 54 00:02:48,610 --> 00:02:51,180 in heaven and all of your glory and be like, I'm going to become 55 00:02:51,190 --> 00:02:53,740 a human? Like, that's exciting. 56 00:02:53,790 --> 00:02:55,450 Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is it like? 57 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:58,810 I think CS Lewis has a quote about this where CS Lewis has a 58 00:02:58,820 --> 00:03:00,100 quote about everything. So if. 59 00:03:00,110 --> 00:03:02,060 Ever just say it is him and he? Probably. 60 00:03:02,070 --> 00:03:05,800 It's probably safe. So I think he says it would be 61 00:03:05,810 --> 00:03:10,910 like littering, like trying to become a Nat or like a slug or 62 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:15,230 something, right. We you cannot comprehend the the 63 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:19,390 move that that is and the, the self emptying and the surrender 64 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,430 and the giving up and the laying aside and the all of it. 65 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,430 This is my, you know, less than stellar attempt at a, at a 66 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,950 segue. Everything, everything that 67 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,450 Herod is not. Oh gosh. 68 00:03:31,860 --> 00:03:33,570 Yeah, right. That's and that's the point of 69 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:35,170 the comparison. Is absolutely. 70 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,000 Everything that is awful about Herod Jesus is not. 71 00:03:40,010 --> 00:03:43,820 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like all of the I, I think 72 00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:48,000 so I, I'm sitting here last week preaching through some of 73 00:03:48,010 --> 00:03:51,700 Herod's story and then this this past Sunday, listening to, to 74 00:03:51,710 --> 00:03:56,190 your sermon on it and going, man, like, well, you know, you 75 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,970 hear these stories. And I think the danger for 76 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:01,630 Christians, the danger for people who grew up in the church 77 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,690 and like, I grew up in the church, like, me too. 78 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:04,870 Dad's a pastor. Me too. 79 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:05,830 Same. Yeah. 80 00:04:06,100 --> 00:04:11,760 And, and I think I, I go, you hear people over and over again 81 00:04:11,770 --> 00:04:15,540 wrestling out how to be, how to be like a disciple and how to be 82 00:04:15,550 --> 00:04:17,320 like Jesus. And I go great things. 83 00:04:17,410 --> 00:04:19,420 Yeah, yes, you're called to be a follower of Jesus. 84 00:04:19,510 --> 00:04:22,180 What does that mean? One who becomes like Jesus? 85 00:04:22,270 --> 00:04:26,540 Like that is true. But I read these passages like 86 00:04:26,590 --> 00:04:29,700 like Harrods story and I go, man, we're so much more like 87 00:04:29,710 --> 00:04:33,560 Herod than we want to admit in terms of our own insecurity and 88 00:04:33,570 --> 00:04:38,280 how we act and react to threat and opposition and anything that 89 00:04:38,290 --> 00:04:42,070 we think impinges or like infringes on who we are and the 90 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,290 life we've created and what we are entitled to or not. 91 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:49,190 And so I go, man, like we need to sit with Harrod for a little 92 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,310 bit and wrestle out longer than we're. 93 00:04:52,390 --> 00:04:55,050 Willing to do it right and that's one of the things I think 94 00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:57,410 I've said this in a sermon previously and it was not my 95 00:04:57,420 --> 00:04:59,000 idea. In fact, I think it's in the 96 00:04:59,010 --> 00:05:01,650 Bible, but we. It's a good place to. 97 00:05:01,660 --> 00:05:05,770 Start, start like the word of God is a mirror and we find it 98 00:05:05,780 --> 00:05:10,030 very easy to be like, how could I be like King David and the 99 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,260 good parts and how, how could God use me in ordinary persons? 100 00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:15,540 Like if you're going to look at the Bible as a mirror, you have 101 00:05:15,550 --> 00:05:17,420 to look at the Bible as a mirror for it. 102 00:05:17,770 --> 00:05:21,280 Every character in the Bible. So how am I a mirror of Herod? 103 00:05:21,290 --> 00:05:25,380 How am I Amir of Saul? How am I a mirror mirrored? 104 00:05:25,430 --> 00:05:28,370 How am I mirrored in the scriptures of all the people? 105 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:30,800 I don't I want to pretend that I am not like or there's nothing 106 00:05:30,810 --> 00:05:33,440 of that in me. I think that you don't have to 107 00:05:33,450 --> 00:05:35,400 only look at the bad. They think there's, there's, I 108 00:05:35,410 --> 00:05:37,580 think humanity is both beautiful and broken. 109 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,370 But I think that, yeah, we, we want to see themselves as Joseph 110 00:05:42,380 --> 00:05:44,380 and Mary stepping into lives of obedience. 111 00:05:44,390 --> 00:05:47,890 But like, yeah, great. And I, I, I hope that you can 112 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,780 take their story and find ways that you can step into obedience 113 00:05:50,790 --> 00:05:53,110 in your own life. But are you also willing to look 114 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,130 at Herod and say, oh, I've I could definitely be like that? 115 00:05:57,140 --> 00:06:00,130 Too. Yeah, but a hard thing to do. 116 00:06:00,180 --> 00:06:04,380 So maybe a good place to start because I thought that you did 117 00:06:04,390 --> 00:06:07,130 this really well at the beginning of your sermon, which 118 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:11,890 was name the difficult reality of the text. 119 00:06:11,980 --> 00:06:12,620 Yeah. Right. 120 00:06:12,670 --> 00:06:16,420 So from the very beginning. Hey, this is not gonna feel like 121 00:06:16,430 --> 00:06:18,100 a Christmas sermon. Yeah. 122 00:06:18,110 --> 00:06:21,660 At least it's not gonna feel like the, the what we want a 123 00:06:21,670 --> 00:06:24,420 Christmas sermon to be and to feel like. 124 00:06:24,470 --> 00:06:27,300 And you might not feel the things that you want to be 125 00:06:27,310 --> 00:06:30,260 feeling on the other side of this at Christmas time. 126 00:06:30,270 --> 00:06:35,730 Like if this is not a sentimental part of the story. 127 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,630 No. Well, we're in a Manger and 128 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,560 everyone's happy and there's a glowing star over top and all is 129 00:06:43,020 --> 00:06:44,470 perfect and peaceful in the world. 130 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,050 It's not that at. All so you had, I think, a 131 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:53,540 brilliant line to help us get into that mindset, which was I'm 132 00:06:53,550 --> 00:06:55,900 not gonna be able to quote you exactly, but something along the 133 00:06:55,910 --> 00:07:03,510 lines of maybe the messiness is here to show us that that it's 134 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,560 part of and in fact, in many ways the reason for the very 135 00:07:08,570 --> 00:07:11,080 event of Jesus's birth. Yeah, right. 136 00:07:11,130 --> 00:07:16,040 Like if, if everything was happy sentiment and emotional, 137 00:07:16,090 --> 00:07:21,320 whatever meaningless sort of good, yeah, then there'd be no 138 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:26,020 need for Jesus's birth and there'd be no need for God to 139 00:07:26,030 --> 00:07:30,460 send a a deliverer. If like if, if the herods of 140 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:32,920 humanity and of us don't don't exist. 141 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:36,910 Like, yeah, this is the reason for for the entire story that 142 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,840 we're telling is because of the depth of brokenness. 143 00:07:40,490 --> 00:07:42,260 So I thought you set it up really well. 144 00:07:43,150 --> 00:07:47,040 But also named like, it's a really difficult thing to do to 145 00:07:47,050 --> 00:07:52,290 sit with. How horrible many parts of 146 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:57,240 scripture can be and and are like so I know, and we don't 147 00:07:57,250 --> 00:08:02,910 have to go down this this path too long, but like varying 148 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,030 commentators will say different things about like the number of 149 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,560 of kids, like the number of children, number of babies, like 150 00:08:09,570 --> 00:08:14,490 what's what's happening here? The fact is like over and over 151 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:17,710 throughout herode entire life we see horrible things. 152 00:08:17,940 --> 00:08:19,170 This. This. 153 00:08:19,930 --> 00:08:22,300 This is so for they're hard to say. 154 00:08:22,310 --> 00:08:25,160 I'm going to kill all the babies within this geographical region, 155 00:08:25,170 --> 00:08:29,710 like within Bethlehem, who are born between A&B fits perfectly 156 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,309 within his character. Yes, And that's a hard thing to 157 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:33,770 reckon with. That's a hard thing to sit with 158 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:37,409 and go, hey, how could God allow for this to happen? 159 00:08:37,500 --> 00:08:41,850 How do I see myself into it? Like just talking about, I know 160 00:08:41,860 --> 00:08:45,150 part of me wants to identify with Herod if this is what Herod 161 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,970 does and if this is like, this is actually the least of the 162 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,320 awful things that he did, right? It's pretty low down on the on 163 00:08:52,330 --> 00:08:54,750 the bar on the scale of like Herod things. 164 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,350 They're not. I mean, there's no, there's 165 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,540 actually no historical record of it happening. 166 00:08:59,550 --> 00:09:01,160 And that, and a lot of people like that means it didn't 167 00:09:01,170 --> 00:09:02,140 happen. It's like that's actually 168 00:09:02,150 --> 00:09:07,000 doesn't mean it didn't happen. It means that as awful as it is, 169 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:11,030 that it's not as awful as the other things that he did. 170 00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:14,680 So we don't focus on that, which just, I mean, it speaks to who 171 00:09:14,690 --> 00:09:18,900 he is. But also, yeah, how incredibly 172 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,690 broken things have broken he is, how broken the world is, how 173 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:27,210 broken, how brokenness intersects with this story and, 174 00:09:27,220 --> 00:09:32,290 and the birth of of Christ. So, OK for the listener then 175 00:09:32,410 --> 00:09:35,730 who? Who's sitting here going, yeah, 176 00:09:35,740 --> 00:09:38,220 I don't want any part of that God. 177 00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:42,180 Right. So, or I mean, I think that's 178 00:09:42,190 --> 00:09:45,880 that's an approach to Scripture. You read, you read some of the 179 00:09:45,890 --> 00:09:48,260 things that happen throughout Scripture. 180 00:09:48,330 --> 00:09:51,190 Yep. And I go, if that is who if, if 181 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,930 that is who God is, then I don't I don't wanna sit with that God 182 00:09:55,980 --> 00:10:00,350 like great, good for you who do. I don't want anything to do with 183 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,860 him, Um, for that person. And I think for the for the 184 00:10:04,870 --> 00:10:08,510 person who wants to believe, maybe it takes a different 185 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,540 approach to it and says, yeah, but man, I don't know what to do 186 00:10:11,550 --> 00:10:14,490 with that. How do you start to sit with 187 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:17,860 those really difficult passages yourself? 188 00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:24,000 So obviously like having to do it to preach is, is one thing, 189 00:10:24,010 --> 00:10:25,500 right? And I think sometimes that's 190 00:10:25,590 --> 00:10:28,680 even, I would argue like that can almost be easier. 191 00:10:28,690 --> 00:10:31,140 At least I find it sometimes easier. 192 00:10:31,450 --> 00:10:33,570 Have a part like, you know that you have to get to the end. 193 00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:38,560 People, people who write sermons now, it's like it starts and 194 00:10:38,570 --> 00:10:40,530 ends with Jesus. That's what you, that's what you 195 00:10:40,540 --> 00:10:42,860 do. You point to who he was, what he 196 00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:45,360 did on this earth and the cross. That tends to be a structure 197 00:10:45,370 --> 00:10:49,000 that you put in so you you know where you always have to go when 198 00:10:49,010 --> 00:10:51,360 you're writing a sermon, which is what makes it easier. 199 00:10:51,370 --> 00:10:52,380 Easier. Easier. 200 00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:57,900 So for the person who's out there going help me do that or 201 00:10:57,910 --> 00:11:00,300 or who maybe doesn't even want to and doesn't know where to 202 00:11:00,310 --> 00:11:03,230 start, like what would be one thing that you say to them? 203 00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:11,440 About sitting with hard passages, um, wow, that's a 204 00:11:11,450 --> 00:11:13,060 great question. What one thing would I say to 205 00:11:13,070 --> 00:11:18,500 them? It sounds trite, but that the 206 00:11:18,510 --> 00:11:20,820 Bible is showing. It's the story of God, but it's 207 00:11:20,830 --> 00:11:23,080 showing the human condition. Yes, these stories are here and 208 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:26,700 they're hard, but you could find these stories anywhere in the 209 00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:29,680 world that are happening day in and day out. 210 00:11:29,870 --> 00:11:36,100 And how the Bible tells it, it's that suffering is not unseen 211 00:11:38,530 --> 00:11:43,430 that got sea suffering, that God hate suffering, that God I I 212 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,380 don't think all suffering, I don't think all suffering is 213 00:11:46,390 --> 00:11:49,870 purposed. I think all suffering can be is 214 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,210 a better way of saying it. And the Bible tells us a story 215 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:59,290 that, um, again, I don't believe that suffering has to have a 216 00:11:59,300 --> 00:12:01,270 greater purpose, but that suffering can be redeemed. 217 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,750 That we have a God who sees, who will suffer with you, who Co 218 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,470 sufferers who understand suffering, was willing to become 219 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,930 a human to understand your condition or our condition or 220 00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:16,320 the world's condition and chose to come and do that anyways, to 221 00:12:16,330 --> 00:12:19,240 live that life so that he could save it. 222 00:12:19,250 --> 00:12:21,180 And that it hasn't made everything well, but that there 223 00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:23,840 will be a day when all is made. Well, yeah, yeah. 224 00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:27,410 And I, and I'll admit, I, I'd be the first person to say, well, 225 00:12:27,420 --> 00:12:29,980 that's not really comforting me right in this moment of my 226 00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:34,820 suffering. It's not, but I think sometimes 227 00:12:34,830 --> 00:12:38,110 we have to. We have to also remember there 228 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:45,950 is a, there's a greater story arc happening here and that that 229 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,810 humanity, it does get the choice to live on this earth with their 230 00:12:48,820 --> 00:12:51,230 free will. And that that's hard and that's 231 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:52,690 messy. And that even in that God is 232 00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:55,290 still intervening and doing miracles and working and, and 233 00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:57,110 doing all of these things. And that's the hope of this 234 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,990 story is that I wrestle with this text because I see the 235 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,150 ultimate evil of this world that I hate. 236 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,950 And yet I still see a God who's willing to come close and redeem 237 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,570 it. And there is a lot of hope and 238 00:13:07,580 --> 00:13:13,570 beauty in that. I I think, uh, one of the things 239 00:13:13,580 --> 00:13:18,590 that would feel disingenuous about the Bible is if it didn't 240 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:24,270 have the, yeah, the deeply problematic, hard, hurtful 241 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,490 moments of humanity. Right. 242 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:29,540 Yeah, well, there's. No, there'd be no, I don't say 243 00:13:29,550 --> 00:13:31,970 there's no purpose to God. There would be like, I think you 244 00:13:31,980 --> 00:13:36,060 started the question this way is that Jesus Jesus came into this 245 00:13:36,070 --> 00:13:38,570 world for a reason and he's coming back for a reason. 246 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:41,620 And that's, and that is to make all things new and right and, 247 00:13:41,710 --> 00:13:44,630 and, and renewal and new creation and all of these 248 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,710 things. But that that narrative is woven 249 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,510 into Scripture from the beginning of Scripture because 250 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:56,200 it recognizes that humanity is not all that we should be, or 251 00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:58,240 could be, or will one day be, right? 252 00:13:58,310 --> 00:14:00,080 Yeah. So I like, I think that's the 253 00:14:00,090 --> 00:14:06,400 one thing that I would say to someone is, you know, like we 254 00:14:06,410 --> 00:14:14,420 all know how deeply hurtful and problematic like the human 255 00:14:14,430 --> 00:14:17,020 experience can be. And it was like everybody has a, 256 00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:21,240 a story or many, Yeah, of moments where both they have 257 00:14:21,250 --> 00:14:23,980 been deeply wounded and have wounded others. 258 00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:29,090 Yes. And so I think that it's hard to 259 00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:31,320 sit with difficult passages. Yeah. 260 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,150 But I think what it does, and I think you've said this really 261 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,560 well, like it honors, it honors the the harm and the wounding 262 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:42,250 that each one of us has. Because then the question does 263 00:14:42,260 --> 00:14:45,450 become, like you said, like where where do we see God moving 264 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:51,650 in the midst of this story? And where can we then begin to 265 00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:55,230 hope for and trust and look and watch and wait for God to be at 266 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:56,830 work? Our story, Yeah. 267 00:14:58,250 --> 00:15:01,000 And not that everything like OK, that story, it's about my story. 268 00:15:01,010 --> 00:15:02,420 Like that's not, that's not what I'm. 269 00:15:02,430 --> 00:15:05,490 Saying no, yeah, I think you could over universalize the 270 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:07,300 Bible, right? You gotta be careful about that. 271 00:15:07,310 --> 00:15:11,390 Yeah, absolutely. But I think that to see to see 272 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,820 the deeply problematic things spoken about in Scripture and 273 00:15:15,830 --> 00:15:18,980 then to know the deeply problematic things in my own 274 00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:24,780 life, that that I, I hope over the long haul of someone's life 275 00:15:24,950 --> 00:15:29,000 speaks more to the presence of God in the midst of it than the 276 00:15:29,010 --> 00:15:30,760 absence of God. Because I think that's where 277 00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:33,360 people go like they say, well, how could God allow something 278 00:15:33,370 --> 00:15:35,040 like that to happen? Yeah. 279 00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:38,360 And if God allowed something like that to happen, A, either 280 00:15:38,370 --> 00:15:45,750 he doesn't exist or doesn't care or B, is is like unable to do 281 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:46,820 anything about it. So what? 282 00:15:46,830 --> 00:15:49,160 What is God then, anyways? Right. 283 00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:53,500 So I think it leads people down, doesn't exist or doesn't care, 284 00:15:53,510 --> 00:15:56,650 doesn't care about me or won't do anything about it or can't do 285 00:15:56,660 --> 00:16:01,340 anything about it. And, you know, I, I think what 286 00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:06,320 what we see in this story is that God is active all the way 287 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:09,900 through, just not in the way, again, just like like we've been 288 00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:12,120 saying over and over again, not in the way that we would expect 289 00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:15,340 or even maybe want or hope for. It's like, well, couldn't that 290 00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:16,900 just have not happened? Yeah. 291 00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:23,080 So maybe helpful. You landed us closer toward like 292 00:16:23,090 --> 00:16:29,600 a next step and and tying in obedience and Mary and Josephs 293 00:16:30,250 --> 00:16:36,600 decision to go, but you did it in a really I thought a 294 00:16:36,610 --> 00:16:39,440 different way and you said that this is going to be a different 295 00:16:39,450 --> 00:16:42,270 like it's not just the obedience point, right, because we've done 296 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:47,160 that now for a couple weeks, but in a way that included them in 297 00:16:47,170 --> 00:16:49,660 what God was doing. So let's talk about that for a 298 00:16:49,670 --> 00:16:53,420 little bit as well, because I think that might be a helpful 299 00:16:53,470 --> 00:16:58,480 framework for, I think for many people in different seasons of 300 00:16:58,490 --> 00:17:00,650 life. But I think especially for 301 00:17:00,660 --> 00:17:03,420 someone who's in the middle of one of those moments where like, 302 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,680 like, does God care? Like does God actually doing 303 00:17:05,690 --> 00:17:08,770 something? What does God going to do? 304 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,310 Yeah. Danger becomes we just wait for 305 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,310 like, OK, God, like, I guess you have to sort this out for me. 306 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:17,230 Yeah. And then we become completely 307 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:18,190 passive. Yeah. 308 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,210 And that's not what we see of Mary and Joseph in the story. 309 00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:25,730 So walk us through that. Specifically, the point that I'm 310 00:17:25,740 --> 00:17:30,980 thinking of is Joseph being called to participate in God's 311 00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:33,770 answer. I and this is this is the thing 312 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:36,240 that always and I don't it still surprises me. 313 00:17:36,290 --> 00:17:39,590 So I have been a Christian for the majority of my life and have 314 00:17:39,630 --> 00:17:42,000 studied the Bible. I always, it's like I always 315 00:17:42,010 --> 00:17:47,270 forget that God places so much trust in humans to do the thing 316 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,140 that he's asking them to do. And you see it throughout the 317 00:17:49,150 --> 00:17:50,940 scriptures. I'm always like, we have really, 318 00:17:50,950 --> 00:17:53,580 God really does use people a lot. 319 00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:55,610 He trusts us a lot, which is another. 320 00:17:55,620 --> 00:17:57,570 And I think that's something goes back to the question we 321 00:17:57,580 --> 00:18:00,940 just answered is, you know, how do you have hope in the middle 322 00:18:00,950 --> 00:18:01,710 of the story? Is that. 323 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,370 Well, one is that God work. Well, God is at work and God is 324 00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:06,630 is using humans in that work as well. 325 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,780 And I think there's something really beautiful in that. 326 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,670 But not to lose, not to lose. The question is that. 327 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:18,220 Yeah, I think there's this very interesting pattern of God 328 00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:24,440 acting and speaking and working through humans to be part of a, 329 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,450 it's hard to say Co create a solution because the the Co 330 00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:30,370 would not be equal like God. God is awfully sovereign and 331 00:18:30,380 --> 00:18:33,750 moving, but God does not. He doesn't wave his hands. 332 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,640 He doesn't remove danger. What he asks is for people, he 333 00:18:39,670 --> 00:18:42,080 There's two pieces of this. God really only guides one step 334 00:18:42,090 --> 00:18:43,340 at a time. I think that we're always 335 00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:45,580 looking for God to have show us the end. 336 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:48,080 And I will take a step of obedience when I can see the 337 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:50,790 end. And that is not how God works. 338 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,110 God calls us in into working with Him. 339 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,550 He calls us into doing things and taking action. 340 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:57,760 But we're not going to see the end. 341 00:18:57,770 --> 00:19:02,290 And yet taking those individual single steps of obedience, us 342 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:04,950 being willing to act, I think is really important. 343 00:19:04,990 --> 00:19:06,870 I think it's easy to get frustrated with the situation, 344 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,500 to put your hands up and say, hey, God, if you want to fix 345 00:19:08,510 --> 00:19:11,640 this, you fix this. But I'm done that's not that 346 00:19:11,650 --> 00:19:13,410 doesn't tend to be hot. God works throughout the 347 00:19:13,420 --> 00:19:16,220 scriptures so hard for people who are waiting for that to be 348 00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:19,760 like oh, I hate to break it to you not typically how God works. 349 00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:23,320 But but it's also I mean think about what Joseph America to be 350 00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:26,290 a part of by doing that like not only yes, they are they are 351 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,080 protected and they get to move forward. 352 00:19:28,090 --> 00:19:32,250 But I mean they got to they got to raise God Incarnate on this 353 00:19:32,260 --> 00:19:35,280 earth and I there was probably a ridiculous amount of pain that 354 00:19:35,290 --> 00:19:37,620 came with that as well. And yet they got to be a huge 355 00:19:37,630 --> 00:19:41,060 part of this beautiful story. 1 I think God trust them because 356 00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:44,870 knows who he called to be in this, but he also gives them 357 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,700 moments to grow and to obey and to have agency over their lives 358 00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:50,170 while still walking in step with him. 359 00:19:50,290 --> 00:19:52,230 And there's something really beautiful about. 360 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:53,710 That does that answer the question? 361 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,590 Yeah, I think so. I so I hear this all the time 362 00:19:56,660 --> 00:20:00,150 and it's like the simplest, silliest example of it. 363 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,530 But it's like it's like praying for God to make you more patient 364 00:20:05,020 --> 00:20:08,850 and then being frustrated when you well-being frustrated when 365 00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:11,410 you are put into or thrown into situations where you need to 366 00:20:11,420 --> 00:20:13,550 practice patients. Like I thought. 367 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,970 I thought that we had. Figured out like, right, like 368 00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:19,430 that's, that is how God works. And I think, I mean, there's a 369 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,310 whole lot of theological reason why I believe that it's to be. 370 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:29,150 But I think God, like you see God acting And so like God, 371 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,850 God's existence, God's being is a being in action. 372 00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:38,230 Like God's existence is one that acts and continues to act 373 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,610 toward, toward the creation, toward, you know, you start 374 00:20:42,620 --> 00:20:45,630 talking about different persons of the Trinity, but like God is 375 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,890 one who acts in his nature. And we are made in his image. 376 00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:54,130 Exactly. And so like obedience too, I 377 00:20:54,140 --> 00:20:57,040 think life with, I say life is obedience. 378 00:20:57,050 --> 00:20:59,860 You know, some people can, I think, react to that, but. 379 00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:02,450 Yeah, the words can be loaded a. Little bit, absolutely, but 380 00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:06,230 life, like life with God, is life in action. 381 00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:10,790 It is life that is becoming. And so there is a book that was 382 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,130 written a long, long time ago. That's the title is God's being 383 00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:16,490 is becoming God's being in becoming. 384 00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:18,730 OK, yeah. And and never right. 385 00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:24,070 And so it's this like I think that for for the follower of 386 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:30,310 Jesus, life with Jesus is found on the road and it is found as 387 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,290 you go and as you take. And I like how you how you 388 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:36,250 framed it. One step, like a step of faith. 389 00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:39,610 And I don't know, maybe this, I don't want to take it too far 390 00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:42,760 without this, but I think people often think of God's will as 391 00:21:42,770 --> 00:21:46,550 like a series of events. Yeah, I think it's more 392 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,350 complicated than that. God has a, I think, a 393 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,220 trajectory. I think there are things going 394 00:21:51,230 --> 00:21:52,460 to happen. I think God is already in the 395 00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:53,950 future, so he knows what's going to happen. 396 00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:59,230 But I also think that part of God's will is making us more 397 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,790 like him. So it and it's how the the great 398 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,260 mysteries of how these two things align, how sure events 399 00:22:06,270 --> 00:22:09,540 occur that he is or ordaining or, or sovereign over, but also 400 00:22:09,550 --> 00:22:13,410 how are we participating and becoming the humanity that he is 401 00:22:13,690 --> 00:22:15,940 Shay trying to shape. And how do these two things work 402 00:22:15,950 --> 00:22:17,730 together? And I don't have the answer for 403 00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:20,680 how that happens, but I think that when we focus on will, we 404 00:22:20,690 --> 00:22:25,780 focus on outcome. And I think when we talk will, 405 00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:27,970 will is not just about God's will is not just about an 406 00:22:27,980 --> 00:22:30,460 outcome. God's will is also about how we 407 00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:33,210 are formed in the journey of that. 408 00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:35,300 So it's both. Pieces. 409 00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:38,650 Yeah. So, OK, let's let's back up 410 00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:42,960 then, because again, you had, I think one of your lines, I wrote 411 00:22:42,970 --> 00:22:46,510 it down as, as you were preaching, one of your lines 412 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:52,190 talked about exactly that. And so the second question, 413 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,750 which is now the third question that I have, I suppose, is so 414 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,090 you had a line about Mary and Joseph being willing to put 415 00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:01,950 their lives in God's hands. Yeah. 416 00:23:02,020 --> 00:23:05,030 And I thought that was just a great way to to put it like they 417 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,890 they choose to do it and they don't have the end of the story 418 00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:11,420 like they have. They have a pretty beautiful 419 00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:13,660 declaration about who Jesus is and is. 420 00:23:13,670 --> 00:23:15,450 Gonna Who's gonna become? And will be. 421 00:23:15,490 --> 00:23:17,880 Yeah, absolutely. And and they, both Mary and 422 00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:19,840 Joseph have their own unique responses. 423 00:23:19,850 --> 00:23:22,800 And you see that like in Luke and Mary's song and her travel 424 00:23:22,810 --> 00:23:24,700 to Elizabeth. And you see that in Joseph's 425 00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:28,400 decision to name Jesus, Jesus and to do the thing that God has 426 00:23:28,410 --> 00:23:33,710 said he ought to do. And so you see it unfold, 427 00:23:34,050 --> 00:23:36,680 probably differently than many moments in our lives. 428 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,530 But like how? Talk for a little bit about how 429 00:23:42,180 --> 00:23:50,540 you become willing or can practice willingness to put your 430 00:23:50,550 --> 00:23:53,960 life into God's hands. Because it feels like to me 431 00:23:53,970 --> 00:24:01,080 you're sounds like I think is the it's the exact opposite of 432 00:24:01,090 --> 00:24:06,450 what we just talked about, which is when everything is going, 433 00:24:07,330 --> 00:24:13,860 let's say sideways, either, you know, we pull back and say, 434 00:24:13,870 --> 00:24:16,280 yeah, OK, this much, this, this much there. 435 00:24:16,290 --> 00:24:21,000 This must say something about God, and so I'm going to 436 00:24:21,010 --> 00:24:25,630 distance myself from that God or we say God, you must fix this 437 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,370 thing for me. Either way, I'm. 438 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:29,410 Out. I'm out, yeah. 439 00:24:29,460 --> 00:24:31,150 Right. And that's not what we see with 440 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,310 Mary and Joseph. No. 441 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,730 They make a very specific decision toward obedience, 442 00:24:36,740 --> 00:24:42,750 toward going toward living life on the road with God and then 443 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,880 with Jesus. How do you become willing to do 444 00:24:47,890 --> 00:24:50,480 that? Is there a practice to it? 445 00:24:51,470 --> 00:24:53,280 I mean, I think there's a there's a practice. 446 00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:55,620 I don't know if willingness is a spiritual discipline. 447 00:24:55,630 --> 00:24:58,820 It's certainly not an official one, but let's pretend that it 448 00:24:58,830 --> 00:25:01,510 is a discipline of some kind. I don't know that you don't 449 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,320 think you're gonna magically wake up and be there tomorrow. 450 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:11,440 I think willingness. I would love to say that I am 451 00:25:11,450 --> 00:25:14,060 great at doing everything God wants me to do and that I live 452 00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:16,480 my life completely open handed, but I. 453 00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:20,340 Think I would love to say that. Too, to say that I cannot say 454 00:25:20,350 --> 00:25:22,100 that and the whole thing disingenuous, yeah. 455 00:25:22,110 --> 00:25:27,420 But I do think there is a there is, it is a practice. 456 00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:31,400 It is a now, I mean, Mary and Joseph, their story, obviously 457 00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:33,760 their story is told within two chapters. 458 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:37,200 I'm sure it's a little more complicated than it was, but to 459 00:25:37,210 --> 00:25:40,120 be honest, they kind of got the really big stuff out of the way 460 00:25:40,130 --> 00:25:45,350 first in some regards. I think. 461 00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:50,180 I don't even I, I don't know if I have a good answer to this 462 00:25:50,190 --> 00:25:50,840 one. I wish I did. 463 00:25:50,850 --> 00:25:53,880 I think part of it is grounding yourself in in the trust of God 464 00:25:53,890 --> 00:25:57,240 and who he is. I think it's the practice of 465 00:25:57,250 --> 00:25:59,820 taking small steps and then taking bigger steps and then 466 00:25:59,830 --> 00:26:02,940 taking even bigger steps. I think it's recognizing, I 467 00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:06,840 think that we can come into it. This fear that if I feel God 468 00:26:06,850 --> 00:26:09,320 calling me once and I don't do it, he's never going to call me 469 00:26:09,330 --> 00:26:10,960 again and I'm going to miss something. 470 00:26:11,050 --> 00:26:13,120 I don't think that's true. I think God calls and calls and 471 00:26:13,130 --> 00:26:16,990 calls and calls and calls and we that, you know, I, I remember 472 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,330 feeling this one time, it's a really, really small example, 473 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,440 but I felt I was really called to help someone do something and 474 00:26:23,450 --> 00:26:25,490 I didn't do it because I got busy in time and stuff like 475 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:26,920 that. And time was, and then 476 00:26:26,930 --> 00:26:28,850 afterwards I felt very compelled, like, oh man, I 477 00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:31,100 missed an opportunity if something God was calling me to 478 00:26:31,110 --> 00:26:34,190 do. And God did it again, like a few 479 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,190 weeks later was like, I'm not missing it this time. 480 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,990 So I think recognizing there's grace along the way, trying to 481 00:26:40,050 --> 00:26:42,850 find the ways that God is calling you into doing 482 00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:48,240 something, not not feeling shame when you miss an opportunity, 483 00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:50,670 but saying next time I'm gonna be a little bit more open. 484 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,560 I think it's a posture of open handedness in whatever you want 485 00:26:55,570 --> 00:26:57,420 to cling to in your life. And we all cling to different 486 00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:59,600 things. There's there's every person's 487 00:26:59,610 --> 00:27:03,000 thing of living in this world or their brokenness is different. 488 00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:08,310 And I think the call to be more open handed it, it does 489 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,750 essentially what Mary and Joseph were doing. 490 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,820 They were living a life of open handedness in terms of their 491 00:27:12,830 --> 00:27:14,440 trust and how they were going to live. 492 00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:17,110 And for them it was, I mean, again, they took really big 493 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,000 steps in the beginning, but they were willing to take those 494 00:27:19,010 --> 00:27:20,620 steps. Like I, I don't think it was 495 00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:23,530 ever easy for Mary and Joseph to leave their homeland and their 496 00:27:23,540 --> 00:27:25,420 stability. But at this point they've heard 497 00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:29,400 from an Angel in a dream 345 times. 498 00:27:29,410 --> 00:27:33,430 So I think at this point, it's like this is the story that like 499 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:36,390 God has been on this journey, We've seen him be faithful, He's 500 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,110 working through this thing. I don't think it was easy, but I 501 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:42,990 think that they were more in tune and aligned with where he 502 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,130 was going to be. Like, you know what? 503 00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:46,960 We got to get up and trust because we've seen how this 504 00:27:46,970 --> 00:27:50,110 things played out and and this is the next step in our journey. 505 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,210 And it it's interesting to me that so and I'm trying to find 506 00:27:55,220 --> 00:27:58,140 passages for this and I'm I'm not doing a great job of it at 507 00:27:58,150 --> 00:28:01,800 that in in real time here. But like the fear disappears 508 00:28:02,220 --> 00:28:05,790 through Mary and Josephs life, like through those, those 509 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,680 things. So, so initially when the Angel 510 00:28:07,690 --> 00:28:11,180 shows up, it there's fear that's named yeah. 511 00:28:11,250 --> 00:28:13,520 And then eventually the Angel shows up and they're like, Oh 512 00:28:13,530 --> 00:28:14,920 yeah. Well, and it's. 513 00:28:15,010 --> 00:28:16,980 It's just kind of old hat now this happens. 514 00:28:17,050 --> 00:28:18,680 I did think about that. Sorry, I almost got off. 515 00:28:18,690 --> 00:28:21,020 But I thought about that because you think I don't know if it was 516 00:28:21,030 --> 00:28:23,480 you or was Allison in one of your previous week sermons, you 517 00:28:23,490 --> 00:28:25,370 said, you know, whenever an Angel shows up, they say do not 518 00:28:25,380 --> 00:28:27,830 be afraid. I'm like, not actually true. 519 00:28:28,170 --> 00:28:30,780 As they go along in the story, the angels don't have to say 520 00:28:30,790 --> 00:28:33,020 don't be afraid anymore. They're like, we're here then, 521 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,520 yeah, this is what's next. And you. 522 00:28:35,530 --> 00:28:38,000 And again, you don't see a wrestling, you don't see a 523 00:28:38,010 --> 00:28:43,030 worry, you don't see fear, you see a OK, this is what we gotta 524 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,940 do. Yeah, Yeah. 525 00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:48,110 And I, again, I don't think it was that simple, but it does 526 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,910 speak to this progression that it's about taking those, those 527 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,520 steps in the beginning, seeing God at work and being like, OK, 528 00:28:56,530 --> 00:28:58,360 I can do this again. I can do this in a bigger way. 529 00:28:58,370 --> 00:29:01,660 I can do this with this thing that I'm clinging to more. 530 00:29:01,670 --> 00:29:07,100 So like I I I can do this. Yeah, I use this analogy 531 00:29:07,270 --> 00:29:10,580 somewhat often and so like it. It probably lands flat for 532 00:29:10,590 --> 00:29:19,670 people, but like I, I I ran at the height of when I was doing 533 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,060 long distance running. Yeah, I ran a 50 kilometer like 534 00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:27,180 ultra marathon, which is like the babies of ultras. 535 00:29:27,190 --> 00:29:30,110 Like there are there are people out there doing 200 miles like 536 00:29:30,150 --> 00:29:35,450 like wildly in Yeah. So like this is not a anyways I. 537 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:36,730 Yeah, I understand what you're saying. 538 00:29:36,740 --> 00:29:41,270 So, so at at the height, I did that and was not injured. 539 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,080 Yeah, the next day, yeah. And flash forward a few years, 540 00:29:46,140 --> 00:29:49,850 got invited to go do a 12 1/2 kilometre race. 541 00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:51,730 Great. And I said, yeah, I can do that 542 00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:54,610 because I did that. I I did, I did the 50K50I can do 543 00:29:54,620 --> 00:29:59,410 1200%. I was so hurt because I had 544 00:29:59,420 --> 00:30:02,290 hardly run in between like those those intervening years. 545 00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:08,940 Like we moved and like now three kids and all of them in school 546 00:30:08,950 --> 00:30:10,420 and like. You're tired. 547 00:30:10,670 --> 00:30:13,970 So much absolutely way more Gray hair. 548 00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:19,420 No, so, so like I, I, I got hurt like I did after 12 kilometers. 549 00:30:19,470 --> 00:30:23,140 And so like you have to flex the muscles, you have to exercise, 550 00:30:23,150 --> 00:30:25,380 you have to do the thing. You have to continue to do the 551 00:30:25,390 --> 00:30:27,780 thing. And it's not like I'm not saying 552 00:30:27,790 --> 00:30:30,880 use it or lose it, like your faith is going to disappear or 553 00:30:30,890 --> 00:30:33,650 that God is gonna like, absolutely not like God is going 554 00:30:33,660 --> 00:30:35,680 to continue to call you. God is going to continue to lean 555 00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:38,020 in. And but there I think there is 556 00:30:38,030 --> 00:30:42,740 something to like flexing the muscles and exercising your 557 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,340 ability to to both hear God and then say yes to God and that 558 00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:52,040 can't like you can't jump. So I think for many of us, you 559 00:30:52,050 --> 00:30:55,720 go, OK, Angel Pierce, you're like, I'm Nope, absolutely or 560 00:30:55,730 --> 00:30:56,580 even. Peace out. 561 00:30:56,890 --> 00:31:01,070 Even just how they. So OK, the Angel appears toward 562 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,120 the end of the story. The Angel appears in a dream. 563 00:31:03,530 --> 00:31:05,600 Yeah. So how many of us would just go, 564 00:31:05,610 --> 00:31:08,190 well, that was a dream. I'm gonna dismiss that entirely. 565 00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:11,320 But they'd practice like they had a history of saying yes to 566 00:31:11,330 --> 00:31:14,300 God and then seeing the fruit of it, like seeing. 567 00:31:14,370 --> 00:31:17,460 OK, we said yes to God and God responded. 568 00:31:17,470 --> 00:31:19,660 And then we said yes to God again. 569 00:31:19,670 --> 00:31:21,770 And God responded again and we said yes to. 570 00:31:21,780 --> 00:31:23,640 And. And so they're building this 571 00:31:23,650 --> 00:31:26,480 relationship with God. This is why we talk about a 572 00:31:26,490 --> 00:31:29,860 relationship with Jesus. Like they're building trust 573 00:31:30,250 --> 00:31:34,960 where God says be faithful, their faithful and they see. 574 00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:36,570 His faithfulness. His faithfulness. 575 00:31:36,580 --> 00:31:39,820 That's that's the key is yeah, the gratitude, the ability to 576 00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:42,280 look back, the ability to see God's faithfulness in it and 577 00:31:42,290 --> 00:31:45,400 being like OHK, OK, like, yeah, he it hasn't felt it in the 578 00:31:45,410 --> 00:31:48,890 moments, but he has had me and he has held me and now I can do 579 00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:51,340 this next thing. And but it doesn't happen over. 580 00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:53,520 Like it doesn't happen instantly. 581 00:31:54,410 --> 00:31:58,030 Oh yeah, absolutely. It takes so much time and here. 582 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,770 So here's the other thing that I want to say is it also happens 583 00:32:00,780 --> 00:32:04,090 in community, which which Matthew largely leaves. 584 00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:06,290 Out he does, Yeah, And sister is very individual. 585 00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:09,130 I feel like that's worth saying. Yeah, that's a good point for 586 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:11,970 Mary. Jesus or an Angel shows up and 587 00:32:11,980 --> 00:32:13,790 Mary immediately goes to be with Elizabeth. 588 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,630 She's like, help me figure this out. 589 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:16,250 Yeah. Right. 590 00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:19,310 And and it's, it's presented in this really faithful, beautiful 591 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,170 way. But you can imagine Mary going 592 00:32:22,180 --> 00:32:26,490 to this older woman in her life and saying, like, help me 593 00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:28,550 understand this thing, like this has happened. 594 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,550 Help me navigate it and make sense of it. 595 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,370 And so we see it in community more so in Luke. 596 00:32:35,490 --> 00:32:39,490 And so that's not to say, oh, like, what's the difference 597 00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:40,460 here? Whatever, but. 598 00:32:40,730 --> 00:32:44,120 I wonder if like Joseph was lonely at this time. 599 00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:46,160 Yeah. Like this would have been a 600 00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:49,130 really hard journey for like him and Mary. 601 00:32:49,140 --> 00:32:51,300 Like, and I know that he had Mary, but, and I'm not saying 602 00:32:51,310 --> 00:32:53,730 that he didn't have community around him that Matthew is not 603 00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:56,190 trying to point that out or not to point that out, I don't 604 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,470 think. But I, I, I have often reflected 605 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,930 on Joseph in the story and wonder one the kind of man he 606 00:33:04,940 --> 00:33:07,740 must have been for God to call him and, and how he cultivated 607 00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:11,930 that and, and how he grew, how he was already, but how he had 608 00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:14,550 to grow in this way. But also like, was this lonely? 609 00:33:14,620 --> 00:33:17,010 Like, was this a lonely journey for him in some ways? 610 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,650 I I wanna know where he went. Like why is he not mentioned? 611 00:33:22,820 --> 00:33:26,250 Yeah, after the temple incident. Yeah, right. 612 00:33:26,260 --> 00:33:29,650 So he's with Mary when they lose Jesus and find him in the 613 00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:31,450 temple. And then it's like, alright, 614 00:33:31,460 --> 00:33:34,990 like does he die or is he just there hiding in the background 615 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,190 like what happened anyways? Sorry, that was a weird question 616 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,450 about like, but I yeah, it's the importance of community is that 617 00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:46,320 I I hope that he had people to go to and yet this is also a 618 00:33:46,330 --> 00:33:48,700 time and a place where. Yeah. 619 00:33:48,970 --> 00:33:53,770 I and I and I wonder and again, like I, I hope that his faith 620 00:33:53,780 --> 00:33:57,020 and trust in God was able to give him that that sense of 621 00:33:57,030 --> 00:33:59,750 reassurance during this time. And obviously he saw some 622 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,190 amazing things, but the importance of community because 623 00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:05,230 it's it's a hard journey to walk alone. 624 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,610 Absolutely. The last thing that I do think 625 00:34:07,620 --> 00:34:11,070 we see for Joseph especially is Joseph described as being 626 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,489 faithful to the law like he was because he was faithful. 627 00:34:15,219 --> 00:34:19,330 He didn't want to divorce Mary in a way that would, you know, 628 00:34:19,340 --> 00:34:22,550 like he, he had it in mind to divorce her quietly. 629 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,190 So he's wrestling out. How do I be faithful to the law 630 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:31,120 that I know says one thing, but faithful to this person and 631 00:34:31,130 --> 00:34:35,100 relationship that I know will end horribly? 632 00:34:35,170 --> 00:34:36,850 Yeah. You know, if I go through with 633 00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:40,380 this, like, is there a way of doing both of like holding the 634 00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:42,860 tension together? Like he's really wrestling stuff 635 00:34:42,870 --> 00:34:43,659 out? Yeah. 636 00:34:44,030 --> 00:34:46,630 For. For a character who's largely 637 00:34:47,610 --> 00:34:52,120 absent after, right, like I do think that there is there's 638 00:34:52,130 --> 00:34:58,320 evidence in Joseph's life of him being faithful in everyday 639 00:34:58,370 --> 00:35:02,720 small, say small, but in everyday less significant ways. 640 00:35:02,730 --> 00:35:05,380 Yeah. So the fact that he's able to 641 00:35:05,390 --> 00:35:09,040 recognize God speaking to him and saying, not only is God 642 00:35:09,050 --> 00:35:11,960 saying something to him, but saying something to him, that 643 00:35:11,970 --> 00:35:17,100 now he's got to think, oh, like, do I now be faithful to what I 644 00:35:17,110 --> 00:35:20,110 think God has said to me, or do I be faithful the law which says 645 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,600 one thing at very different, like he's had to wrestle all 646 00:35:22,610 --> 00:35:23,480 this out. Yeah. 647 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,330 So I think you do see evidence of his faithfulness in the 648 00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:28,530 small, everyday things. Yes, absolutely. 649 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,950 And then it grows. And I do think you see evidence 650 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,590 of community for them as well, and hopefully for them both. 651 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,420 But I do think you see evidence of other people's influence in 652 00:35:39,430 --> 00:35:42,500 their lives, in the difficulty and in the moment. 653 00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:47,840 And so the the last I said last thing twice now, but the last 654 00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:51,960 thing for I think for the person out there who is in the middle 655 00:35:51,970 --> 00:35:56,860 of like a difficult season and also maybe feeling the 656 00:35:56,870 --> 00:36:00,440 difficulty of wrestling with hard texts that aren't always 657 00:36:00,450 --> 00:36:05,640 comforting and or at least peacefully comforting in a happy 658 00:36:05,650 --> 00:36:07,880 make you feel OK about life kind of way. 659 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,610 In a different way. Like I wonder if we can kind of 660 00:36:11,620 --> 00:36:16,150 if we can distill all of this into some just really practical 661 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,390 things. One I think I've heard you say 662 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:20,570 like, you're not going to get there overnight. 663 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,930 This is a a slow step by step faithful. 664 00:36:25,940 --> 00:36:32,620 Like just focus on the next step journey so #1. 665 00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:34,160 That's yes, I would say. Step by step. 666 00:36:34,170 --> 00:36:36,880 Yes #1 is step by step and being willing. 667 00:36:38,570 --> 00:36:40,440 It is both. It's both a comfort that you 668 00:36:40,450 --> 00:36:43,140 only have to step one thing at a time, one take, one step at a 669 00:36:43,150 --> 00:36:44,720 time. It's also can be really daunting 670 00:36:44,730 --> 00:36:47,240 because you don't know when the next step is going to be or how 671 00:36:47,250 --> 00:36:50,300 to build on that. But I would say yes, one step at 672 00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:54,050 a time. So #2 I heard you say give 673 00:36:54,060 --> 00:36:58,210 yourself grace. So you might take the step, you 674 00:36:58,220 --> 00:37:00,750 might not take the step, You might take the step and be like, 675 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,650 oh, that wasn't it. That was the wrong. 676 00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:06,150 One that was the wrong. One and God is still going to 677 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,010 lead you further yet like there is still more for. 678 00:37:09,020 --> 00:37:11,790 You yeah, it's not a once. Some people are an all or 679 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,850 nothing kind of deal. And I would I would try to 680 00:37:14,860 --> 00:37:17,950 discourage away from that. God is going to continue to give 681 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,350 you opportunity. He's going to continue to speak. 682 00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:22,880 He is going to have Grace with you. 683 00:37:23,590 --> 00:37:25,680 Be convicted or you need to be convicted. 684 00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:27,240 Yeah, but also have grace on yourself. 685 00:37:27,250 --> 00:37:30,820 Yeah, I think we're learning this slowly as a culture, even 686 00:37:30,830 --> 00:37:33,350 like when we talk about mental health and like recovery not 687 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,160 being linear, those types of things. 688 00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:37,620 Right. And your spiritual journey is 689 00:37:37,630 --> 00:37:40,820 not not going to be linear. Absolutely not linear, not at 690 00:37:40,830 --> 00:37:44,980 all. So step by step, have grace #3 691 00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:52,730 get yourself into a community and be OK borrowing some grace 692 00:37:52,740 --> 00:37:54,890 from other people. Yes, and borrowing some hope 693 00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:56,190 from other people. Yeah. 694 00:37:56,980 --> 00:38:00,050 Because I think that's there are going to be moments where you 695 00:38:00,060 --> 00:38:01,730 just don't have it. Yeah. 696 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,490 And so if you don't have it on your own, that's a very 697 00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:07,300 different reality then. Yeah, I don't have it and I need 698 00:38:07,310 --> 00:38:09,230 to lean on somebody. Yeah, in this moment. 699 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,700 Yeah, I think, yeah. Being willing, finding a place 700 00:38:11,710 --> 00:38:15,290 that you can be vulnerable and honest, even if it's one person 701 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,790 who can just speak into you and speak into your life. 702 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,650 And like you said, in in a way it's intercession, like be that 703 00:38:22,660 --> 00:38:27,200 hope when you don't have any and allow them to be that for you. 704 00:38:27,210 --> 00:38:32,650 And yeah. So any last thing that you want 705 00:38:32,750 --> 00:38:36,890 wanted people to hear that didn't make it into the sermon 706 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,660 or that you're sitting with right now going, yeah, having 707 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,150 kind of worked our way back through it, this is what I want 708 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:49,390 people to hear. I, I don't know if I, I know, I 709 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,820 think I, I, I feel like we've touched on it. 710 00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:59,200 I think the thing that I want people to to leave with is that 711 00:38:59,210 --> 00:39:01,560 the Kingdom of God is here and it's at work. 712 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,680 Hmm. That's yeah. 713 00:39:04,730 --> 00:39:10,050 But they, they, I, I really meant strongly and felt it 714 00:39:10,060 --> 00:39:15,410 deeply that when we look around our world that it is, it can be 715 00:39:15,420 --> 00:39:17,290 very hard. It can be a really hard world to 716 00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:20,470 look at at times and can really hard to see the things that we 717 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,270 see. And it can be really hard to 718 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,510 trust that God is working in the midst of that. 719 00:39:27,580 --> 00:39:31,160 And the one thing that I loved and that that I was reminded of 720 00:39:31,810 --> 00:39:34,300 this this week, these two weeks I've been wrestling with this 721 00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:37,850 text, is that God's work is not always overt. 722 00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:41,520 It's not always fast. It's sometimes it's really quiet 723 00:39:41,580 --> 00:39:47,570 in the background. And even in those quiet spaces, 724 00:39:47,580 --> 00:39:49,550 they can be amazing time for preparation. 725 00:39:49,820 --> 00:39:53,230 So whether it's a quiet moment in in your life and you're in a 726 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:55,670 sphere, a season of preparation, whether you need to trust that 727 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,790 there's preparation happening in other places. 728 00:39:58,780 --> 00:40:01,180 Yeah. The Kingdom of God is alive and 729 00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:04,670 well and at work, and it endures beyond the things that we see in 730 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,150 this world. Absolutely. 731 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,140 Great place to stop, which I think is the very beginning of 732 00:40:09,150 --> 00:40:11,870 your sermon, which is to say those two points that you 733 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,770 started with. Hey, I want you to hear God is 734 00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:17,120 present and God is at work. Yeah. 735 00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:18,480 Thank you. Thank you. 736 00:40:18,910 --> 00:40:20,840 We hope that. You have a. 737 00:40:20,930 --> 00:40:24,200 A great Christmas. This will be the last podcast 738 00:40:24,210 --> 00:40:25,740 episode that you see until the new year. 739 00:40:25,850 --> 00:40:28,160 So Lindsey, thanks for joining us. 2025. 740 00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:29,960 Absolutely. Yeah, so we'll. 741 00:40:29,970 --> 00:40:32,780 See you in the new Year and we are praying for you. 742 00:40:32,850 --> 00:40:34,920 Yes, absolutely. Merry Christmas.