Hey friend, welcome to another episode of our podcast.
And as many of you will know, named last week, the Sunday Sit
down South. Welcome to the Sunday sit down.
It's not Sunday for us and it is, I'm assuming not Sunday for
you. And this is just like a
wonderful way for us to continue our conversation throughout the
week and with the goal for you to continue your conversation
throughout the week. So to not let Sunday be like the
beginning, middle and end of your Christian life, but to
really encourage ourselves together to continue these
conversations throughout our week.
So the Sunday sit down. This is a great name.
All we had to do was hire somebody creative and with
energy to do all the things that you and I are not creative
enough to do. Exactly so.
Wonderful thing. Should we name the person who
named the podcast? She's in the room with.
Us. She's in the room recording
behind one of the cameras. Thank you, Annabelle.
But this is great and we hope, again, like at the end of the
day, our hope is that you continue to have these similar
conversations. And so to that end, we've got
three questions that are based on Justin, the sermon you
preached from Sunday, which I thought was fantastic and filled
with so much meat and goodness that we probably won't get into
all of today. But three questions based on
this story around Jesus healing of the man possessed by a legion
of evil spirits of demons. The legion speaks to Jesus.
Jesus rebukes, sends them away into a herd of pigs.
They go off into the sea, which I thought was just this really
poetic connection. And you named.
Disturbingly poetic. But absolutely, yeah, not all
poetry is like, you know, happy and lovey dovey.
Right. Yeah, there's Edgar Allen Poe.
It's yeah, I memorized the Raven in high school.
Yeah. I could not tell you the whole,
but I yeah, it was like you could get 10 extra percent on
your year if you memorized. And some of those only from an
episode of The Simpsons though, right?
So that's. I can still, I can still think
of some lines, but it really like it's this poetic connection
between the calming of the storm to this really calming of a
whirlwind of a storm for an individual and a community.
So we get the C representing this place of evil and spirit
and torment and fear, all unknown.
The abyss you named in the story where Jesus calms the sea.
And then that theme is carried forward into this interaction
with the man and with really with the community.
And I thought that was actually as I was listening to your
sermon, that that's the the portion of the text.
Like I think we we can, we can really focus on the healing
piece and the kind of shock and awe and demon possession, like
legion of them speaking to Jesus, the pigs, like it's, it's
this big thing. But I found myself really
wrestling with like the people who witness it or some who
don't, but who like arrive on the scene after it's happened.
And you know, I think for many of us like that might have been
the most challenging portion of the sermon.
So I've, I've got 3 questions. We can talk through those, but
is there anything that you want to say just by way of
introduction? I thought your way into the
sermon was quite astute. And so just want to give you a
chance to to kind of double down on some of the language around
the world of and this is not exactly the language you used,
but the spiritual world or the world of spirit and what we
would call like physical world now not really being a distinct
realms or worlds in this day. So like we divide those things,
but that wasn't the case in India.
So anything that you want to write, like I touched on it two
weeks ago, I thought you did a really astute job of naming the
middle in that and where these places overlap.
Yeah, yeah. So a whole bunch of my
theological training was actually anthropology and and
with with the idea being that these are it is an anthropology
is often a sphere that that Christians have not delved into
too much for a number of reasons.
But there have been a number of Trail Blazers and the guy I
mentioned, Paul Hebert, he was one of them.
And, and so he was one who coined this phrase, the excluded
middle. And, and this was after
conversing with, you know, with guys like Leslie Newbigin, who
we've often quoted from as well, and, and others who Paul Hebert
himself was a, a missionary in, in various parts of the world.
And, and noticing the way that the West tends to approach these
different worlds. And it's baked in.
It's baked into our culture in the same way that in in other
parts of the world, it's the opposite, is baked by their
culture. So I even, you know, this is
like a really silly example, but like, you know, I probably you
and I would have both grown up watching like, you know, Bugs
Bunny cartoons and things like that, where, you know, they have
an anvil that, you know, flattens them.
And then what the their little spirit, what does it do?
It floats, floats up to heaven, right?
And, and it's, that's baked into it, this, this dualistic view
that there is, that there is the physical world.
And then, yeah, you, you float up to heaven, which is somehow
up up there somewhere, you know? And, and so the idea here is
that we need to, we need to think rightly about, about our
world, that our world is both physical and spiritual.
And to neglect that is, is can be problematic and dangerous,
you know, and, and so that was why I brought that up, just
because I, I know it's a, it's a wrestling for me.
It's a wrestling for me that when I read some of these
passages about these possessed men individuals, there is a
tendency in my mind to think, oh, those are just, you know, in
ancient Near East, people that didn't know what, you know,
schizophrenia was right, right. That is that is something that
plays out of my mind now. I think it's it's very clear
when you dig deeper that that is not the case here.
Like evident in in the the way the person, the the the demons
that Legion knew who Jesus was. How else would a person in this
Gentile region have right? So, but there is still that
tendency. I think for me, and if I have
that tendency, I have to think there are others.
I know that there are others because people told me so
yesterday. And yet also others told me the
opposite, that, that they are like we were confronted.
They would tell me I was confronted with situations where
I was like, oh, this is real. Like there is a, there is a
spiritual world. Spiritual warfare is real.
Let me tell you, you know some stories you know.
I can pinpoint the moment. We don't have to get into this,
but I can pinpoint the moment in my career as a passer where that
became immediately real for me and very early on.
And it was like the great, you know, leadership and
discipleship and and mentorship of like a senior pastor who I
was working with at the time who just named it.
And I went, oh, yeah. OK, yeah, here we go.
Like it. I can I can remember the place.
I can remember the time. I can remember exactly where I
was standing. And but we do like, I think we
have this, we have this tendency to think that it's interesting
that you mentioned lesbian. I was just rereading a section
of the Gospel in a pluralist society and like this morning.
And that's one of the things that he wrestles out is like, we
just we think that if it can't be empirically proven, shown,
demonstrated evidence, repeated, then, you know, it's not worth
believing and we need to move on from it.
So he he wrestles it out been talking about powers and
principalities like in Paul's language around the powers and
the principalities and how it's just an assumed part of language
and culture and religion and the way life is that these things
are intertwined and connected. They're not, they're not
separated that maybe you get this like leap in like, and it's
like this kind of like Ghostbusters, like
discombobulated, like something's amiss.
And like it's a spirit like a ghost is run amok.
Like, you know, it's just like they're not separate that
occasionally touch. It's they there's a spiritual
realm to life. And it's this really post modern
way to think about the world as just like purely physical.
Yeah. So no, I think that was an
astute thing to begin with and point out because otherwise you
come into this story with a whole lot of different
assumptions about how this man is healed or not.
Door is to a different degree and I say different, not lesser
like to in a different way. But I, I think you're right on
when when Legion names Jesus, you go ohhhhh, alright, yeah.
So also saying something about who Jesus is in such a profound
way. But so three questions then to
jump off that because we don't have time to dive into all of
the questions that that that might bring for people.
But I've just say as an additional plug, send us your
questions on any of our conversations.
Which admittedly we did not check this morning, so if they
did send questions, I'm sorry we didn't get any last week and
then I forgot to do it. It'll be next week.
It was 3 questions for application today.
I found it really interesting that so question one is for
ourselves thinking through how Jesus has this ability to call
us out of some of these similar ways of of death.
I found it really interesting that this man whose demon
possessed wandered like he's wandering the tombs like the
place of like it's again, it's just creepily poetic that he's
hanging out in amongst the tombs.
And you know, I don't think we're told exactly why.
It's, it's not that he's we're not sure like he's not been
banished there. It was a place where typically
people who were seen to be as demon possessed would
congregate, would go and would live.
They were typically excluded from culture, society, cities,
towns, etc. That.
I've heard a line and it's mine actually.
My wife uses a lot in in her work and so I'm not sure, I'm
not be able to quote where she got it from.
Maybe she came up with it. But it's like rats are drawn to
garbage. And it's like, man, this this
guy who is possessed by this legion of demons is drawn to
this place of death and decay and darkness.
And so I picture him. He's literally called out of
this place of death and given life.
Yeah. It's really interesting that to
me, like when we read in the New Testament, typically healed.
When we read that word in English, healed, it's the same
word that is often used to mean saved, Yes.
And I think that's the case here.
And I think you mentioned that this is not only that this guy
is healed. He's he's literally, he is safe.
This is a this is a conversion moment.
What does that look like for us today?
How do you see in our daily life ways in which that ways in which
Jesus calls us out of these places of death?
And I would even say are there? Like are there things?
Are there? What are the practices that
would encourage that to happen? Because I do think that there's
like a, a role to play in, in discussing, like positioning
yourself for Jesus to call that out of you.
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's one of the questions
that I couldn't quite answer yesterday.
I kind of asked the question not knowing the answer of how did
this happen to the guy? You know, like, like, how could
this man have have positioned himself and, and, and poised
his, his life to be, you know, like just, it's, I, I don't know
the answer. You know, I mean, maybe you have
a thought, but I, I, I still don't know the answer to that.
And the Bible doesn't say, but I think that, you know, we can
extrapolate that question for us where we might be able to look
at the answer, right. When we look at our lives and
the, the darker places of our life, the the dead places in our
life, when we really reflect, we can actually kind of trace it
back and be like, something happened here.
You know, for some people, it's, it's, you know, a bunch of
intentional choices, poor choices that were made over the
course of, you know, little bunch of little tiny choices
over the course of days and weeks and months and eventually
years that have led them to this very dead place.
You know, I think about someone in, in addiction of some kind,
right? It's, it's a, it's a bunch of
small choices, often rooted in, in, you know, trauma and other
other things like that. But it's a bunch of small
choices that have been made day by day, week by week, year by
year. And then all of a sudden it's
like, how did they get there? Well, trace it back, right?
That's a fairly extreme example. Like there are lots of things in
my life that I can, that I, you know, places that I, I have seen
God work through and redeem. And I can look back, I can see
where it came from. I can see how God drew me out of
that. And, and, and I would say one of
the, one of the key pieces in that is being honest with God
first and foremost. So, so looking, looking at my,
you know, a circumstance in my life where I say, OK, this is
bad enough that I need, that I need to like bring this to
light, even just in my own heart before God, right?
And that's where you know, like, so that's, you know, often a, a
prayer of desperation, you know, like God, this, my life sucks
right now. I, I, I need, I need you here,
right? And and being able to being able
to just admit that right. And this is honestly, this is
like, you know, some 12 steps type stuff like when you're in
like a, you know, and, and it applies to far more than, you
know, alcohol or other things like that.
But like, you know, usually it's admitting you're to yourself and
to God that you have a problem. They need help.
That, that like that's the, that's the first thing.
Like you can't do anything when you're in denial, but denial
about a situation that you're struggling through, right.
And again, like it's easy to point to things like substances
as being one of the bigger things.
It it goes from like I've gotta spending problem.
I've got a screen addiction problem.
I've got a like just name any, any issue in your in in our
world today or your world. And and you know, you can say
like Hey, I, I need help here, right?
Yeah. Well, so like one of the things,
and you name this, one of the things that we're both wrestling
through this summer is how do we lower our screen time given the
fact that we spend so much time on screens for work?
You know, like I'm, I'm not going back to writing sermons by
hand. Like I just, I will always use
the computer. I'm not gonna hand write.
Like I'm not gonna be able to read it on Sunday.
Such a slow I when I would have to write essays like high school
exams have to write an essay by feel it.
I can still feel it. My hand would cramp up.
It's awful. But so one of the things that
one of the things that I've appreciated about this idea, so
like I'm gonna, I'm gonna spend as little time on screens as
possible. I'm gonna ditch phones.
Like I'm gonna try to not spend any time on my phone.
Like screen time as little as possible.
Wanna be present. Don't want life to be driven by
the algorithm. I don't want it choosing what
YouTube video I watch next or Netflix suggesting something
that I continue watching or social media and list scrolls
and just pumping out the same thing over and over again.
I don't want my news feed driven by now I read this article.
So it's gonna, you know, pump the all of these similar like I
don't want the echo chamber. And so, you know, early on in
the summer said, hey, to kind of small group of people, I'm doing
something stupid, you know, and it kind of silly like you want
in. And lo and behold, there were a
number of people who were like, Yep, game on.
Also in. And that for me was to name
something. This is in some ways I think
it's significant and in some ways it's not, as it's not a
serious, serious thing. We're having some fun with it,
but the naming of something to someone else is like a more
powerful thing than I think we ever realize.
Yes, it also the thing that we're like the most deeply
afraid of. And there's, there's a little
bit of like a denial in the process as well, where where
you're like, actually, I'm, I don't know, I don't have a
problem with that. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not
compelled by the algorithm and the way that you're describing
like that's not a problem for me.
And then So what I've started noticing, so like just as one
example, and I know what this is still technically a screen, but
like, you know, Sunday afternoon we throw the, the baseball game
on and we're just watching that on our and I, and I said it to
my wife, I'm like, I, I want to avoid the thing where this is
on. And I'm also doing this.
And so like, I've like my phone is in the other room out of
reach, but how often? Commercial break comes on and
I'm like itching to like. Yeah.
I'm like, OK, maybe I do have a problem, you know, like where
you're confronted with the reality that that you've been in
denial about. Yeah, yeah.
For me, I started noticing it when I was waiting for things
like, you know, dentist office had to take one of my kids into
to the dentist and brought something for her to do.
She's reading a book, she's colouring, writing, doing
whatever. And I reached for my pocket and
I was like, oh, I don't have my phone.
They're gonna do, I'm gonna sit here.
And and and I so I did like I sat that was it.
I brought a book with me. So I read that's where I noticed
it. He says he start reaching for
it. So but the important thing for
relevant for our discussion is there's power in naming
something to somebody else. And so I think what you've said
is you've got to be honest with yourself.
You have to be honest with God. And I think where that leads
exactly, it leads you to saying, hey, this is something that God
is doing in in my life. I'm not sure what it means.
I'm not sure where it leads, but I am sure enough.
Like I need to speak it. Yeah.
So yeah, I think that the honesty is helpful.
And then like is necessary. And then it's got to be concrete
in that way of naming it, not just to yourself, not just to
God, but to somebody else. Yeah, because I can name
something to myself and, and sort of just like let it like
let it fester, you know, and and I could even name something to
God and be like God would you, you know, just miraculously deal
with this. But it is usually the way that
God works is, is that when we that when we bring something to
light, I think to God and to another that it, that it can
actually, that we can actually be drawn out of those dark
places. Yeah.
And and I think it's in naming
to somebody else that you allow them to speak goodness in to the
place of like the almost this like void.
Yeah. So, you know, I think of like
Legion leaves and then like, and then what for this guy like so
all of life can change. And he he goes like he, he sits
at the feet of Jesus. He wants to be a disciple.
Jesus gives him something to do in its place.
So there is there's a task given.
Yeah, I think there is a place as well for people to speak what
is true and good into your life in it, in in the place of.
Yeah, the thing. Yeah.
OK. So you gotta be honest with
yourself. You gotta be honest with God,
and then you have to be honest with somebody else.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, and obviously we want that to be a safe person who is
gonna walk with you slowly and carefully and.
Follow up with you and to check in and see how things are going.
And you know, I have friends in my life that that I have to
remember to check in with. And it's an intentional thing.
It's like, Hey, how is this going for you?
And, and you know, they're usually pretty good at getting
back to me and they're usually pretty good at being honest.
Or if I feel like they're not being as forthright as I think
they should be, I try to probe a little further and, you know,
like, and not in like a, not in a way that I'm trying to like,
I'm not, I'm not trying to like get like the, the juicy details
of their life. I'm just saying like, hey, are
you being, are you being fully transparent with yourself about
this? You know?
Yeah. And so I like that.
So name the question again. How do you ask it to your
friend? You know, like, well, so I
usually say like, how is blank going for you?
Yeah, you know, these days. Which is very different than how
are you doing, Yes or how are things going Yeah, like a
specific question is a question that can include accountability
and some level of yeah, hey, let's not do the whole run
around yeah, this, you know, outside skirt the kind of.
But The thing is you have to have invited someone into that.
And I'm thinking of, I have a friend who has very specifically
said, I want you to ask me about this.
And I'd say great. It makes it easy when you don't
have to beat around the Bush, that you can just talk about it.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, great.
So the demon possessed man, he sits at Jesus's feet and I love
these said like that's the place of a disciple.
He, he, he wants to follow Jesus.
His life has been changed. He's been saved.
Jesus sends him away. We're going to get to that in a
minute, but in the meantime, there's a whole bunch of
villagers who are. Afraid.
Yeah, and they're not, they're not happy, they're angry.
I think it's safe to safe to say that they're angry.
They asked Jesus till they begged Jesus to leave.
And, you know, again, you touched on a lot of why that
might be. And I think in large part it's
the the they're confronted with the power of Jesus and it makes
them uncomfortable and it makes them lose control.
So they they have a situation. It's not great, but it's
controlled, and it's controlled to enough of a degree that
they're comfortable with how things are.
Yeah. Now Jesus demonstrates a greater
power than the power that was in this man.
They were afraid of that. They don't know what is going
on. The pigs are gone.
There's some woe is me. I think, you know, mentality
there. Like what?
Like, what does this mean for like at least the, the guy
didn't, you know, interrupt our livelihood, our ability to work.
It's like that bacon is about to get a lot more expensive and.
This is it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it.
Absolutely. Is I tried to like work that in
the sermon and it didn't it didn't fly.
And so I kind of, but I was like, you know what, saving it
for the podcast. So the question is, where do you
think we run the risk of also tipping toward wanting to remain
comfortable and in control? How are some of the ways we do
that rather than truly being confronted by the power of
Jesus? I think that's honestly like
that's our, that's our expertise here in the West.
Like, I think in our, like we have so many creature comforts
available to us at every point that, that are, you know, if, if
you are even I, I say like anywhere from like lower middle
class to middle class to upper class, you know, like, like lie,
our life is full of comfort in a way that has not always been the
case for, you know, for much of the world and for much of
history, right? You know, I was, I was just in
Scotland a couple weeks ago and, and, you know, we're walking
around these like these ancient castle ruins and whatnot and
imagining what their life was. And it's like, man, even the
people who were real rich and had like castles, their life
still kind of sucked in some ways, like and made sure they
had lots of vices and comforts and whatnot, but.
They're still hard. Man, like, yeah, there is parts
I think that would have like compared to what we've got now.
Like I, I'll take what we've got now the rather than living in
this castle, you know, like seriously.
So it's, it's everywhere, like like potential vices and, and
like, it's, it's everywhere. And, and I think it, it, it's
gotta be, it's gotta be a choice to say it's a God.
I, I, I don't want comfort to be my, my goal in life and my aim
in life. I can't say that every day of my
life. You know, I've talked a little
bit and maybe this is a, maybe a concrete example.
I've talked a little bit over the years about some of my, my
challenges with, with chronic pain and, and last September I
had a very major back surgery to correct long standing issue.
And there's been this tension in my soul as we talk about, you
know, chronic pain. I mean, life can be painful
sometimes. As we get old, we we age and we
have more pain in our bodies, life becomes less uncomfortable
or less less comfortable. But for me, I was wrestling
with, OK, what is like, what is me wanting and desiring comfort
and wanting to be free from pain.
Hmm. And what is hey, something's
actually not right in my, you know, in my body that needs to
be fixed, right? That was a thing that I was
wrestling with for a long time leading up to and now, I mean, I
can look back now and be like, man, almost a year later, like I
feel so much better. And I'm like, this is this is
better that that sort of thing. That was better to not to not
have that degree of constant pain and discomfort, right?
And yet the tendency is still there.
The tendency is still there, I think, for all of us to reduce
comfort. Sorry, reduce discomfort.
Anything we can do, I keep doing double negatives.
Anything we can do to feel more comfortable, Hmm is seen as a
net good, right? And I don't know, I don't know
how we get over that hurdle. I don't know how we, you know,
collectively as a society or even maybe just even smaller
level as a church to say that that that is actually not the
goal of life because it's not the goal of life.
Yeah. And yet the goal of life is also
not to be like, you know, gluttons for punishment and, you
know, to to constantly to constantly seek seek out painful
situations. But I do feel like we need a bit
of a wake up call. I don't know.
What do you? What do you?
Think what do you I read a book a few years ago called The
Comfort Crisis, and I'm not gonna remember the name of the
author. You can check for us.
I'm on it. Great, but one of one of the
arguments in that book is. That Michael Easter.
Michael Easter. I was gonna guess, Michael,
something so great it's worth reading.
Not, not a religious book, not a Christian book, not a, you know,
discipleship book. But I I think one of the main
points, one of his main arguments is that nobody grows.
You don't get better when you are comfortable.
Yeah, right. Like, and that's just like as
cliche as that is, you grow emotionally typically in seasons
that are easy. Yeah, right.
When I look back on my life, I think most of us would look back
on the moments where we've seen create us growth in our life and
also would associate some of our deepest pains.
So he really like he wrestles that out.
How do we, how do we not become people who, like, pursue
discomfort for the sake of it? Yeah, but who embrace the
reality of it? Because I think that's the
other. That's the thing that I'm
constantly struck by is like we, we do like pursuing pleasure and
avoiding pain. Yeah.
Like that's pretty typically. Like kind of kind of natural.
Yeah, yeah. But we all also, I think, would
readily admit that we can't do that perfectly.
Like no matter how hard I try to eliminate pain from my life,
there will be painful experiences.
And all I'm doing is, is avoiding until I can't avoid,
right? And so that's why I think we end
up with various addictions and vices.
Like what we're trying to do at the end of the day is in many
ways numb pain of various, like various kinds.
So you get physical pain, chronic physical pain that you
try to numb, you get emotional pain, you have trauma, you have
trauma responses, you have coping mechanisms.
Some are good, some are bad. Like there's a lot of different
pain that we try to avoid. Also, there is for someone who
has a, what we would say is a very good life, there is almost
this like the the malaise of like love life where it's like
almost you, you, you want to, you want to feel something or
you want to numb something of just like the general.
If someone is like generally comfortable and they're just
like, but I want more. Yeah.
You know, Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
So like, yeah, I think, yeah, we need to reckon with life being
uncomfortable, yeah. And embrace it and ask, you
know, I, I think this beautifully open-ended question
of what what is, what is Jesus inviting you into in the midst
of it and how is he meeting you in the midst of it?
So, you know, I, again, I, I think it's important that we
came off the storm into this into this story because the
disciples have just like talk about uncomfortable, right?
So physically uncomfortable, in danger, fear for their lives
kind of moment that Jesus navigates them through.
And then they land on this opposite shore where they
typically wouldn't like to go in, in a region where they are
unfamiliar with people. And there's a level of
discomfort in meeting this man with the legion of demons.
And so, you know, I, I think I, I think as much as we can do to
embrace discomfort and wonder our way through it, the more we
will, I think naturally look for and hope for and pray for and
watch for and experience Jesus in the midst of it.
The more we try to numb or avoid or just completely like
everything is comfortable, I can manage everything, everything is
within my control. I can control everything, then
the less we are positioned to experience Jesus in the midst of
that kind of life. So, you know, I think yeah,
don't anyways pursue pursuing comfort, pursuing pleasure,
pursuing the avoidance of pain, even to put it in that negative
way. Ultimately I think will end up
still experiencing discomfort, pain and just might be
difficulty, it might be delayed. And, you know, in those months
where I think we see people and experience ourselves these much
larger crises of now out of nowhere kind of thing.
So, you know, the villagers I think, are in the midst of this
and they do they kind of this like turtle move of like, what
about us? We gotta get rid of this guy.
Yeah, yeah. We're afraid of him.
We're like, let's just wall ourselves off control what we
can control kind of like that seems to be there.
Their MO is to cling back control.
But I still wonder what happens to them once the dust is
settled. And I kind of amused about that
a little bit toward the end of like what, you know, once they,
you know, perhaps an economically recovered from
their, you know, from things like what this man's story.
Yeah. You know, what impact, what
impact might that have had on them as they you know, perhaps
their hearts got softened at some point toward what Jesus had
done in that place. You.
Know so my third question is how do we become like this man who
like really the last word, the final word is like going tell,
right? Go and tell what what God has
done. Yeah.
And so he goes and he tells and I've flipped off the verse right
now. So I was looking for a couple
other passages through our conversation.
But if I flip back over to Luke 8, we've got this, um, the, the
last verse 39, return to your home, like go home, declare how
much God has done for you so that it's like quantifiable,
like go and share the abundance of what has happened and what
you've experienced. And he went away, proclaiming
throughout the whole city how much again, how much Jesus had
done for. Him I love I love that you know,
Jesus like tell what, tell what God's done and then he's like,
I'm gonna tell you how much Jesus has done Like there's
there's some there's a I think I subtle messianic, you know,
component to what's. Happening.
There's a theological statement being made here for sure that
Jesus says go and share what God has done and the man Luke is
being very intentional. The man goes and shares what
Jesus has done. Yeah.
So I can't remember if it was Craddock who had the line or NT
right who points this out, but essentially the same thing that
he says. If you want to tell people what
God has done, tell them what Jesus has done.
And I think we'd take it one step further than what NT Wright
says. Tell them what Jesus has done in
your life. Yeah.
How do we do that, though? Like, and how do we do it in a
way that's not. And I love that you say that.
It's not like don't be the jerk Christian.
Yeah, right. Which will say, I think the one
of the lines. But how do we do we talk about
living in this pluralist, multicultural, religiously
diverse secular age forum? Like, how do we share what Jesus
has done? Yeah, in concrete ways.
That isn't like skirting the edges of what Jesus has done.
I know this is like real life transformation.
How do you do it in a way that actually lands in a pluralist
secular society? I I think in some ways it's,
that's the, that's the way you, you must approach in a pluralist
secular society. Because it is rooted in my
experience right here is what Jesus has done in my life here
is like, look, I I like you. You can easily say to someone
I've and I've had conversations like like like this with friends
where, where they are, you know, they, they grew up, they had a
bad experience in church and they're not, you know,
interested in a particular brand of type of Christianity.
But they but they see me and they're like, Hey, you, you seem
like you're somewhat sane individual.
And I'm like, well, you don't really know me, but but you
know, like as we're, as we're talking like, like, look, hey,
here's know that you're, you're wrestling through like, you
know, whether God is real. I know that you're wrestling
through, you know, how there can be all these different, you
know, faiths and whether or not one or the other can be true or
whatever, right? It's like, all I can share is
what Jesus has done, you know, like here's for me.
And, and I think just like, I don't think this flies
personally, I don't think this flies super well at A, at a kind
of distant level in terms of like, you know, going to a
stranger and just saying like, Hey, here's what Jesus has done
for me. For me.
It's like my, my neighbors and, and you know, my people, my
friends in, in, in, you know, we're walking to school with,
with walking my daughter to school with, with other parents
and chatting with them and getting to know them and hearing
their stories and them hearing my story and, and them sort of
being like, OK, tell me more. You know, like, and, and that's
been really interesting, like, and, and I, I want more of that.
I admittedly, I wish I, I, I would like more of that.
And it's not as often as I would like because I don't, I, I'm,
I'm the type who doesn't wanna be pushy.
I don't want to, I don't want to be that, you know, I don't want
to be that guy. But there, there is something
people can't refute my story and I and, and, and I can say this
is what this is what God has done.
This is what Jesus has done in my life.
That man like I was going through the ringer with, with
all sorts of just challenges. And, and, and I, you know, the
thing I often point to you is, is I, you know, was working
through some, some struggles from my childhood, some things
that I went through. And, and I would say it was, you
know, my, my psychiatrist, who was a Christian woman,
wonderful. But the way that she brought
Jesus into it, the way that it is, was like Jesus is the one
who brings healing. And, and for me to be able to
say like, hey, like I am, I am forever indebted to through
that, that season of my life where where I was working
through some pretty heavy stuff in my life, but it was Jesus,
you know, it was Jesus who walked with me through that
stuff. And I'm not expecting everyone
to understand that, but I think actually that's where like where
the, the man in the story here, he also would have known a lot
of these people. They would have seen him before.
They would have seen him after, right.
And, and for, for him to be able to say like, Hey, you, you saw
what I was like, look what Jesus has done, you know, and I've
seen that. I've seen that story with, with
many people with people who at my previous church that I worked
at, they had a very large Celebrate Recovery program.
So a lot of, a lot of people with emotional hurts and
addictions and things like that, like the contrast from before
and after. And they would get up there and
say, like, look what Jesus has done.
And it's like, I, I can't refute that.
Like, goodness. And the joy, the joy that this
often accompanying those types of stories and testimonies is in
my mind like irrefutable. So somebody might walk away, be
offended by it. Yeah.
But it's because it's real. Like this is something that you
can't be. You can't, you can't shrug off.
I think that's the only thing that I would add because yes to
all of that that you've shared, you know, like I, I do, I, I
have conversations with people who say, I don't know where to
begin with evangelism. And so they, we say, you know,
begin with your own story, like talk about what Jesus has done
in your life, wrestle it out, think it through, pray through
it, like wonder, ask yourself like what, how really has my
life changed? And almost allow, like allow
Jesus to confront you in that again.
Like if you're struggling to really think, well, it's like my
life really isn't that much different.
Like, I was kinda, you know, I was addicted to work before and
I was, I'm still addicted to working like a like a low, like
allow yourself to be confronted in that and challenged.
And maybe things still need to change.
Maybe there like for all of us, yes, things still need to
change. Yeah.
But begin with your story and share the hope that rattles
around in your bones. That's the place to begin.
I had a Prof who used to quote, and I've probably used this
quote already in this podcast. So I had a profit seminar who
would quote John McKay, who was a missionary and then Prof and
president at the seminary that that I attended.
He has this line. You have to earn the right in
any sort of mission work. You have to earn the right to be
heard. And that's the way to do it.
You don't do it by opening up your Bible and saying, Hey, let
me argue my way into your life and you into faith.
And like, I know that that's like even comical to kind of
suggest like not many people are running around trying to do
that, wanting to do like that. That's that's terrifying to many
people, but. There are people.
Though I think we have that perception of it.
And so it starts with like relational evangelism.
And I don't mean like date somebody to convert them, I mean
it. Figured to convert.
Yeah, that's the way. Thank you.
That's what I was looking for it.
It begins with real life relationship, right?
People need to know you and you need to earn the right to be
heard and trusted in someone's life, just like others need to
earn your trust. Like there are real life
relationships that ought to be impacted and shaped by by your
faith, but you gotta have the relationship so you earn the
right to be heard. And then the other piece that I
would also say is Leslie New Begin talks about how, like, the
gospel is offensive. So, so don't be afraid of
offending somebody because of the gospel.
Be careful not to offend them because you're being a jerk.
Yes, yeah, yeah. Like let Jesus offend people.
Let's not offend people ourselves, but let's let the
gospel be be offensive. As we saw in the story that that
they were repelled by by what happened in the events that
occurred and what Jesus had done.
And that is the nature of the gospel, that there will be
people that will be drawn in and people that will, whether it's
forever or just that that season, they will be repelled
because they're resistant to hearing they are whatever,
right? And maybe because something in
them needs to be offended, yeah, maybe they need to like maybe
the offence is often necessary for so you get legion who is
more than offended by Jesus, right by Jesus rebuke and it's
what's necessary. Like it calls the thing out of
out of him. So yeah, I think it requires
real life relationship and also it requires a little bit of
offence. Yeah, but allow Jesus to be
offensive. Don't be offensive yourself.
Yeah. In his last words.
I don't think so. This was a it was, it was a
challenge. Like I was telling the prayer
team before we gathered, I was like, I, I struggle with, you
know, with passages like that deal with with like intense
stuff like this. So it was a but God, I think
stretched me and, and I was always excited to, to sort of
draw out some of the things that we've talked about here and, and
to do it here anyway, It was, it was, it was, it was fun.
And I pray that it encourages us as we try to wrestle some of
this out as well. But I want to say thanks for
doing it well and for leading us through it in like a really
wise, astute, powerful way. And we hope that it helps you
have some good conversation into this week because we know even
within our own church, like our own little congregation, people
are going to approach passages like this differently.
And we're going to be offended at it for different reasons.
And it's going to challenge different things inside of us.
The thing that I would just say is if it's challenging something
inside of you, talk to somebody about it because that's probably
a good thing. Lean in rather than check out.
Yeah, absolutely. We hope you have a great week
and we will see you in the next episode.