1 00:00:00,690 --> 00:00:03,920 Hey friend, welcome to another episode of our podcast. 2 00:00:03,930 --> 00:00:08,320 And as many of you will know, named last week, the Sunday Sit 3 00:00:08,330 --> 00:00:10,460 down South. Welcome to the Sunday sit down. 4 00:00:10,470 --> 00:00:13,520 It's not Sunday for us and it is, I'm assuming not Sunday for 5 00:00:13,530 --> 00:00:16,079 you. And this is just like a 6 00:00:16,090 --> 00:00:19,890 wonderful way for us to continue our conversation throughout the 7 00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:23,120 week and with the goal for you to continue your conversation 8 00:00:23,210 --> 00:00:26,200 throughout the week. So to not let Sunday be like the 9 00:00:26,210 --> 00:00:32,200 beginning, middle and end of your Christian life, but to 10 00:00:32,210 --> 00:00:35,480 really encourage ourselves together to continue these 11 00:00:35,490 --> 00:00:38,100 conversations throughout our week. 12 00:00:38,150 --> 00:00:41,200 So the Sunday sit down. This is a great name. 13 00:00:41,210 --> 00:00:45,860 All we had to do was hire somebody creative and with 14 00:00:45,870 --> 00:00:49,330 energy to do all the things that you and I are not creative 15 00:00:49,340 --> 00:00:51,200 enough to do. Exactly so. 16 00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:53,080 Wonderful thing. Should we name the person who 17 00:00:53,090 --> 00:00:55,000 named the podcast? She's in the room with. 18 00:00:55,010 --> 00:00:56,240 Us. She's in the room recording 19 00:00:56,250 --> 00:00:59,560 behind one of the cameras. Thank you, Annabelle. 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,430 But this is great and we hope, again, like at the end of the 21 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,210 day, our hope is that you continue to have these similar 22 00:01:08,220 --> 00:01:11,540 conversations. And so to that end, we've got 23 00:01:11,550 --> 00:01:14,330 three questions that are based on Justin, the sermon you 24 00:01:14,340 --> 00:01:18,310 preached from Sunday, which I thought was fantastic and filled 25 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,150 with so much meat and goodness that we probably won't get into 26 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,410 all of today. But three questions based on 27 00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:34,950 this story around Jesus healing of the man possessed by a legion 28 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:40,970 of evil spirits of demons. The legion speaks to Jesus. 29 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,950 Jesus rebukes, sends them away into a herd of pigs. 30 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:49,490 They go off into the sea, which I thought was just this really 31 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,310 poetic connection. And you named. 32 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,170 Disturbingly poetic. But absolutely, yeah, not all 33 00:01:57,180 --> 00:01:59,990 poetry is like, you know, happy and lovey dovey. 34 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,000 Right. Yeah, there's Edgar Allen Poe. 35 00:02:02,010 --> 00:02:07,050 It's yeah, I memorized the Raven in high school. 36 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,870 Yeah. I could not tell you the whole, 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,570 but I yeah, it was like you could get 10 extra percent on 38 00:02:13,580 --> 00:02:17,120 your year if you memorized. And some of those only from an 39 00:02:17,130 --> 00:02:18,530 episode of The Simpsons though, right? 40 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:20,980 So that's. I can still, I can still think 41 00:02:20,990 --> 00:02:24,480 of some lines, but it really like it's this poetic connection 42 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:32,250 between the calming of the storm to this really calming of a 43 00:02:32,260 --> 00:02:37,480 whirlwind of a storm for an individual and a community. 44 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:43,130 So we get the C representing this place of evil and spirit 45 00:02:43,140 --> 00:02:47,060 and torment and fear, all unknown. 46 00:02:47,070 --> 00:02:52,350 The abyss you named in the story where Jesus calms the sea. 47 00:02:52,740 --> 00:02:58,560 And then that theme is carried forward into this interaction 48 00:02:58,630 --> 00:03:02,870 with the man and with really with the community. 49 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,970 And I thought that was actually as I was listening to your 50 00:03:05,980 --> 00:03:11,400 sermon, that that's the the portion of the text. 51 00:03:11,530 --> 00:03:15,960 Like I think we we can, we can really focus on the healing 52 00:03:15,970 --> 00:03:20,420 piece and the kind of shock and awe and demon possession, like 53 00:03:20,470 --> 00:03:24,360 legion of them speaking to Jesus, the pigs, like it's, it's 54 00:03:24,370 --> 00:03:28,070 this big thing. But I found myself really 55 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,660 wrestling with like the people who witness it or some who 56 00:03:32,670 --> 00:03:36,770 don't, but who like arrive on the scene after it's happened. 57 00:03:37,090 --> 00:03:40,150 And you know, I think for many of us like that might have been 58 00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:43,450 the most challenging portion of the sermon. 59 00:03:44,890 --> 00:03:48,200 So I've, I've got 3 questions. We can talk through those, but 60 00:03:48,210 --> 00:03:50,780 is there anything that you want to say just by way of 61 00:03:50,820 --> 00:03:54,730 introduction? I thought your way into the 62 00:03:54,740 --> 00:03:59,750 sermon was quite astute. And so just want to give you a 63 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,440 chance to to kind of double down on some of the language around 64 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,400 the world of and this is not exactly the language you used, 65 00:04:09,410 --> 00:04:14,430 but the spiritual world or the world of spirit and what we 66 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:20,940 would call like physical world now not really being a distinct 67 00:04:20,980 --> 00:04:27,420 realms or worlds in this day. So like we divide those things, 68 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,120 but that wasn't the case in India. 69 00:04:30,130 --> 00:04:32,280 So anything that you want to write, like I touched on it two 70 00:04:32,290 --> 00:04:36,080 weeks ago, I thought you did a really astute job of naming the 71 00:04:36,090 --> 00:04:39,380 middle in that and where these places overlap. 72 00:04:39,390 --> 00:04:45,870 Yeah, yeah. So a whole bunch of my 73 00:04:46,310 --> 00:04:50,620 theological training was actually anthropology and and 74 00:04:50,630 --> 00:04:54,560 with with the idea being that these are it is an anthropology 75 00:04:54,570 --> 00:05:00,740 is often a sphere that that Christians have not delved into 76 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:03,680 too much for a number of reasons. 77 00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:06,400 But there have been a number of Trail Blazers and the guy I 78 00:05:06,410 --> 00:05:08,040 mentioned, Paul Hebert, he was one of them. 79 00:05:08,150 --> 00:05:11,760 And, and so he was one who coined this phrase, the excluded 80 00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:14,750 middle. And, and this was after 81 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,090 conversing with, you know, with guys like Leslie Newbigin, who 82 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:24,430 we've often quoted from as well, and, and others who Paul Hebert 83 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,790 himself was a, a missionary in, in various parts of the world. 84 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:36,320 And, and noticing the way that the West tends to approach these 85 00:05:36,330 --> 00:05:38,250 different worlds. And it's baked in. 86 00:05:38,260 --> 00:05:43,630 It's baked into our culture in the same way that in in other 87 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,580 parts of the world, it's the opposite, is baked by their 88 00:05:46,590 --> 00:05:48,840 culture. So I even, you know, this is 89 00:05:48,850 --> 00:05:53,820 like a really silly example, but like, you know, I probably you 90 00:05:53,830 --> 00:05:56,500 and I would have both grown up watching like, you know, Bugs 91 00:05:56,510 --> 00:06:00,980 Bunny cartoons and things like that, where, you know, they have 92 00:06:00,990 --> 00:06:03,280 an anvil that, you know, flattens them. 93 00:06:03,350 --> 00:06:06,420 And then what the their little spirit, what does it do? 94 00:06:06,430 --> 00:06:10,400 It floats, floats up to heaven, right? 95 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,960 And, and it's, that's baked into it, this, this dualistic view 96 00:06:16,030 --> 00:06:18,660 that there is, that there is the physical world. 97 00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:22,340 And then, yeah, you, you float up to heaven, which is somehow 98 00:06:22,350 --> 00:06:29,050 up up there somewhere, you know? And, and so the idea here is 99 00:06:29,060 --> 00:06:32,430 that we need to, we need to think rightly about, about our 100 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,390 world, that our world is both physical and spiritual. 101 00:06:35,970 --> 00:06:42,730 And to neglect that is, is can be problematic and dangerous, 102 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,780 you know, and, and so that was why I brought that up, just 103 00:06:46,790 --> 00:06:49,320 because I, I know it's a, it's a wrestling for me. 104 00:06:49,390 --> 00:06:53,020 It's a wrestling for me that when I read some of these 105 00:06:53,030 --> 00:06:58,720 passages about these possessed men individuals, there is a 106 00:06:58,730 --> 00:07:07,770 tendency in my mind to think, oh, those are just, you know, in 107 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:11,850 ancient Near East, people that didn't know what, you know, 108 00:07:11,860 --> 00:07:15,230 schizophrenia was right, right. That is that is something that 109 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,790 plays out of my mind now. I think it's it's very clear 110 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,670 when you dig deeper that that is not the case here. 111 00:07:22,020 --> 00:07:26,810 Like evident in in the the way the person, the the the demons 112 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:31,430 that Legion knew who Jesus was. How else would a person in this 113 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,240 Gentile region have right? So, but there is still that 114 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:37,980 tendency. I think for me, and if I have 115 00:07:37,990 --> 00:07:40,340 that tendency, I have to think there are others. 116 00:07:40,430 --> 00:07:42,860 I know that there are others because people told me so 117 00:07:42,910 --> 00:07:46,180 yesterday. And yet also others told me the 118 00:07:46,190 --> 00:07:49,920 opposite, that, that they are like we were confronted. 119 00:07:49,930 --> 00:07:53,040 They would tell me I was confronted with situations where 120 00:07:53,050 --> 00:07:55,900 I was like, oh, this is real. Like there is a, there is a 121 00:07:55,910 --> 00:07:59,180 spiritual world. Spiritual warfare is real. 122 00:07:59,260 --> 00:08:01,400 Let me tell you, you know some stories you know. 123 00:08:02,610 --> 00:08:04,880 I can pinpoint the moment. We don't have to get into this, 124 00:08:04,890 --> 00:08:08,340 but I can pinpoint the moment in my career as a passer where that 125 00:08:08,350 --> 00:08:12,480 became immediately real for me and very early on. 126 00:08:12,490 --> 00:08:19,490 And it was like the great, you know, leadership and 127 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:23,240 discipleship and and mentorship of like a senior pastor who I 128 00:08:23,250 --> 00:08:25,250 was working with at the time who just named it. 129 00:08:25,420 --> 00:08:28,600 And I went, oh, yeah. OK, yeah, here we go. 130 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:30,760 Like it. I can I can remember the place. 131 00:08:30,770 --> 00:08:32,600 I can remember the time. I can remember exactly where I 132 00:08:32,610 --> 00:08:35,130 was standing. And but we do like, I think we 133 00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:38,179 have this, we have this tendency to think that it's interesting 134 00:08:38,190 --> 00:08:41,620 that you mentioned lesbian. I was just rereading a section 135 00:08:41,630 --> 00:08:45,580 of the Gospel in a pluralist society and like this morning. 136 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:48,210 And that's one of the things that he wrestles out is like, we 137 00:08:48,220 --> 00:08:51,640 just we think that if it can't be empirically proven, shown, 138 00:08:51,650 --> 00:08:55,520 demonstrated evidence, repeated, then, you know, it's not worth 139 00:08:55,530 --> 00:08:57,080 believing and we need to move on from it. 140 00:08:57,090 --> 00:08:59,590 So he he wrestles it out been talking about powers and 141 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,860 principalities like in Paul's language around the powers and 142 00:09:01,870 --> 00:09:06,380 the principalities and how it's just an assumed part of language 143 00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:09,560 and culture and religion and the way life is that these things 144 00:09:09,570 --> 00:09:13,330 are intertwined and connected. They're not, they're not 145 00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:16,870 separated that maybe you get this like leap in like, and it's 146 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,870 like this kind of like Ghostbusters, like 147 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,170 discombobulated, like something's amiss. 148 00:09:21,180 --> 00:09:23,880 And like it's a spirit like a ghost is run amok. 149 00:09:23,890 --> 00:09:27,780 Like, you know, it's just like they're not separate that 150 00:09:27,790 --> 00:09:32,380 occasionally touch. It's they there's a spiritual 151 00:09:32,390 --> 00:09:37,160 realm to life. And it's this really post modern 152 00:09:37,170 --> 00:09:41,440 way to think about the world as just like purely physical. 153 00:09:41,490 --> 00:09:44,460 Yeah. So no, I think that was an 154 00:09:44,470 --> 00:09:49,760 astute thing to begin with and point out because otherwise you 155 00:09:49,770 --> 00:09:52,240 come into this story with a whole lot of different 156 00:09:52,250 --> 00:09:56,220 assumptions about how this man is healed or not. 157 00:09:56,300 --> 00:10:01,680 Door is to a different degree and I say different, not lesser 158 00:10:01,830 --> 00:10:06,980 like to in a different way. But I, I think you're right on 159 00:10:06,990 --> 00:10:13,940 when when Legion names Jesus, you go ohhhhh, alright, yeah. 160 00:10:13,980 --> 00:10:19,160 So also saying something about who Jesus is in such a profound 161 00:10:19,170 --> 00:10:22,220 way. But so three questions then to 162 00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:27,260 jump off that because we don't have time to dive into all of 163 00:10:28,490 --> 00:10:31,860 the questions that that that might bring for people. 164 00:10:31,870 --> 00:10:34,740 But I've just say as an additional plug, send us your 165 00:10:34,750 --> 00:10:38,130 questions on any of our conversations. 166 00:10:38,140 --> 00:10:40,490 Which admittedly we did not check this morning, so if they 167 00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:44,150 did send questions, I'm sorry we didn't get any last week and 168 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:45,950 then I forgot to do it. It'll be next week. 169 00:10:48,390 --> 00:10:51,220 It was 3 questions for application today. 170 00:10:51,470 --> 00:10:55,740 I found it really interesting that so question one is for 171 00:10:55,750 --> 00:11:01,780 ourselves thinking through how Jesus has this ability to call 172 00:11:01,790 --> 00:11:07,550 us out of some of these similar ways of of death. 173 00:11:07,930 --> 00:11:11,420 I found it really interesting that this man whose demon 174 00:11:11,430 --> 00:11:15,800 possessed wandered like he's wandering the tombs like the 175 00:11:15,810 --> 00:11:21,720 place of like it's again, it's just creepily poetic that he's 176 00:11:21,730 --> 00:11:24,200 hanging out in amongst the tombs. 177 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:29,720 And you know, I don't think we're told exactly why. 178 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,850 It's, it's not that he's we're not sure like he's not been 179 00:11:34,220 --> 00:11:41,160 banished there. It was a place where typically 180 00:11:41,690 --> 00:11:44,840 people who were seen to be as demon possessed would 181 00:11:44,850 --> 00:11:46,540 congregate, would go and would live. 182 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:50,980 They were typically excluded from culture, society, cities, 183 00:11:50,990 --> 00:11:53,970 towns, etc. That. 184 00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:56,200 I've heard a line and it's mine actually. 185 00:11:56,210 --> 00:12:01,730 My wife uses a lot in in her work and so I'm not sure, I'm 186 00:12:01,740 --> 00:12:03,340 not be able to quote where she got it from. 187 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,480 Maybe she came up with it. But it's like rats are drawn to 188 00:12:07,570 --> 00:12:11,940 garbage. And it's like, man, this this 189 00:12:11,950 --> 00:12:16,980 guy who is possessed by this legion of demons is drawn to 190 00:12:16,990 --> 00:12:21,600 this place of death and decay and darkness. 191 00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:26,640 And so I picture him. He's literally called out of 192 00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:30,250 this place of death and given life. 193 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:31,710 Yeah. It's really interesting that to 194 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,630 me, like when we read in the New Testament, typically healed. 195 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,110 When we read that word in English, healed, it's the same 196 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:43,050 word that is often used to mean saved, Yes. 197 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:44,500 And I think that's the case here. 198 00:12:44,510 --> 00:12:46,560 And I think you mentioned that this is not only that this guy 199 00:12:46,570 --> 00:12:48,410 is healed. He's he's literally, he is safe. 200 00:12:48,420 --> 00:12:50,810 This is a this is a conversion moment. 201 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,810 What does that look like for us today? 202 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:04,100 How do you see in our daily life ways in which that ways in which 203 00:13:04,110 --> 00:13:07,080 Jesus calls us out of these places of death? 204 00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:11,830 And I would even say are there? Like are there things? 205 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,830 Are there? What are the practices that 206 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:21,020 would encourage that to happen? Because I do think that there's 207 00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:25,090 like a, a role to play in, in discussing, like positioning 208 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:28,280 yourself for Jesus to call that out of you. 209 00:13:28,330 --> 00:13:30,220 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's one of the questions 210 00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:32,660 that I couldn't quite answer yesterday. 211 00:13:32,670 --> 00:13:36,630 I kind of asked the question not knowing the answer of how did 212 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,940 this happen to the guy? You know, like, like, how could 213 00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:46,540 this man have have positioned himself and, and, and poised 214 00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:51,890 his, his life to be, you know, like just, it's, I, I don't know 215 00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:53,770 the answer. You know, I mean, maybe you have 216 00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:56,970 a thought, but I, I, I still don't know the answer to that. 217 00:13:57,390 --> 00:14:01,470 And the Bible doesn't say, but I think that, you know, we can 218 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,690 extrapolate that question for us where we might be able to look 219 00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:08,060 at the answer, right. When we look at our lives and 220 00:14:08,070 --> 00:14:13,250 the, the darker places of our life, the the dead places in our 221 00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:19,840 life, when we really reflect, we can actually kind of trace it 222 00:14:19,850 --> 00:14:22,200 back and be like, something happened here. 223 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,490 You know, for some people, it's, it's, you know, a bunch of 224 00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:29,070 intentional choices, poor choices that were made over the 225 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,150 course of, you know, little bunch of little tiny choices 226 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,770 over the course of days and weeks and months and eventually 227 00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:38,750 years that have led them to this very dead place. 228 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,370 You know, I think about someone in, in addiction of some kind, 229 00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:45,390 right? It's, it's a, it's a bunch of 230 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,910 small choices, often rooted in, in, you know, trauma and other 231 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,170 other things like that. But it's a bunch of small 232 00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:54,750 choices that have been made day by day, week by week, year by 233 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,010 year. And then all of a sudden it's 234 00:14:56,020 --> 00:15:00,010 like, how did they get there? Well, trace it back, right? 235 00:15:01,290 --> 00:15:05,710 That's a fairly extreme example. Like there are lots of things in 236 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:10,900 my life that I can, that I, you know, places that I, I have seen 237 00:15:10,990 --> 00:15:15,580 God work through and redeem. And I can look back, I can see 238 00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:19,060 where it came from. I can see how God drew me out of 239 00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:24,000 that. And, and, and I would say one of 240 00:15:24,010 --> 00:15:31,250 the, one of the key pieces in that is being honest with God 241 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:34,940 first and foremost. So, so looking, looking at my, 242 00:15:34,950 --> 00:15:41,320 you know, a circumstance in my life where I say, OK, this is 243 00:15:41,330 --> 00:15:44,280 bad enough that I need, that I need to like bring this to 244 00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:48,160 light, even just in my own heart before God, right? 245 00:15:48,250 --> 00:15:52,280 And that's where you know, like, so that's, you know, often a, a 246 00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:56,660 prayer of desperation, you know, like God, this, my life sucks 247 00:15:56,670 --> 00:15:59,250 right now. I, I, I need, I need you here, 248 00:15:59,260 --> 00:16:04,410 right? And and being able to being able 249 00:16:04,420 --> 00:16:09,860 to just admit that right. And this is honestly, this is 250 00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:12,800 like, you know, some 12 steps type stuff like when you're in 251 00:16:12,810 --> 00:16:16,540 like a, you know, and, and it applies to far more than, you 252 00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:18,380 know, alcohol or other things like that. 253 00:16:18,430 --> 00:16:22,480 But like, you know, usually it's admitting you're to yourself and 254 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:25,400 to God that you have a problem. They need help. 255 00:16:25,410 --> 00:16:27,800 That, that like that's the, that's the first thing. 256 00:16:27,870 --> 00:16:31,660 Like you can't do anything when you're in denial, but denial 257 00:16:31,670 --> 00:16:34,320 about a situation that you're struggling through, right. 258 00:16:34,540 --> 00:16:38,060 And again, like it's easy to point to things like substances 259 00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:39,740 as being one of the bigger things. 260 00:16:39,810 --> 00:16:43,890 It it goes from like I've gotta spending problem. 261 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:46,690 I've got a screen addiction problem. 262 00:16:46,700 --> 00:16:52,560 I've got a like just name any, any issue in your in in our 263 00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:55,940 world today or your world. And and you know, you can say 264 00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:57,800 like Hey, I, I need help here, right? 265 00:16:57,810 --> 00:16:59,600 Yeah. Well, so like one of the things, 266 00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:02,450 and you name this, one of the things that we're both wrestling 267 00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:06,880 through this summer is how do we lower our screen time given the 268 00:17:06,890 --> 00:17:10,369 fact that we spend so much time on screens for work? 269 00:17:12,060 --> 00:17:14,710 You know, like I'm, I'm not going back to writing sermons by 270 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,270 hand. Like I just, I will always use 271 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:18,819 the computer. I'm not gonna hand write. 272 00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:20,290 Like I'm not gonna be able to read it on Sunday. 273 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:26,329 Such a slow I when I would have to write essays like high school 274 00:17:26,339 --> 00:17:28,710 exams have to write an essay by feel it. 275 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,130 I can still feel it. My hand would cramp up. 276 00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:34,230 It's awful. But so one of the things that 277 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:40,450 one of the things that I've appreciated about this idea, so 278 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,480 like I'm gonna, I'm gonna spend as little time on screens as 279 00:17:43,490 --> 00:17:45,400 possible. I'm gonna ditch phones. 280 00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:49,090 Like I'm gonna try to not spend any time on my phone. 281 00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:51,600 Like screen time as little as possible. 282 00:17:51,650 --> 00:17:54,720 Wanna be present. Don't want life to be driven by 283 00:17:54,730 --> 00:17:57,440 the algorithm. I don't want it choosing what 284 00:17:57,450 --> 00:18:00,510 YouTube video I watch next or Netflix suggesting something 285 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,160 that I continue watching or social media and list scrolls 286 00:18:05,170 --> 00:18:08,420 and just pumping out the same thing over and over again. 287 00:18:08,430 --> 00:18:11,990 I don't want my news feed driven by now I read this article. 288 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,190 So it's gonna, you know, pump the all of these similar like I 289 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:20,930 don't want the echo chamber. And so, you know, early on in 290 00:18:20,940 --> 00:18:25,010 the summer said, hey, to kind of small group of people, I'm doing 291 00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:28,270 something stupid, you know, and it kind of silly like you want 292 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,480 in. And lo and behold, there were a 293 00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:34,760 number of people who were like, Yep, game on. 294 00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:39,560 Also in. And that for me was to name 295 00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:44,300 something. This is in some ways I think 296 00:18:44,310 --> 00:18:47,880 it's significant and in some ways it's not, as it's not a 297 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:52,340 serious, serious thing. We're having some fun with it, 298 00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:59,140 but the naming of something to someone else is like a more 299 00:18:59,150 --> 00:19:02,390 powerful thing than I think we ever realize. 300 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,480 Yes, it also the thing that we're like the most deeply 301 00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:08,240 afraid of. And there's, there's a little 302 00:19:08,250 --> 00:19:13,200 bit of like a denial in the process as well, where where 303 00:19:13,210 --> 00:19:16,560 you're like, actually, I'm, I don't know, I don't have a 304 00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:20,300 problem with that. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not 305 00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:24,270 compelled by the algorithm and the way that you're describing 306 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,040 like that's not a problem for me. 307 00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:30,530 And then So what I've started noticing, so like just as one 308 00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:33,520 example, and I know what this is still technically a screen, but 309 00:19:33,530 --> 00:19:38,240 like, you know, Sunday afternoon we throw the, the baseball game 310 00:19:38,250 --> 00:19:43,320 on and we're just watching that on our and I, and I said it to 311 00:19:43,330 --> 00:19:49,320 my wife, I'm like, I, I want to avoid the thing where this is 312 00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:52,290 on. And I'm also doing this. 313 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:56,480 And so like, I've like my phone is in the other room out of 314 00:19:56,490 --> 00:20:03,100 reach, but how often? Commercial break comes on and 315 00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:06,790 I'm like itching to like. Yeah. 316 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,800 I'm like, OK, maybe I do have a problem, you know, like where 317 00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:14,940 you're confronted with the reality that that you've been in 318 00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:16,760 denial about. Yeah, yeah. 319 00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:21,200 For me, I started noticing it when I was waiting for things 320 00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:25,480 like, you know, dentist office had to take one of my kids into 321 00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:30,860 to the dentist and brought something for her to do. 322 00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:33,830 She's reading a book, she's colouring, writing, doing 323 00:20:33,870 --> 00:20:37,590 whatever. And I reached for my pocket and 324 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,220 I was like, oh, I don't have my phone. 325 00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:42,150 They're gonna do, I'm gonna sit here. 326 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,550 And and and I so I did like I sat that was it. 327 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,710 I brought a book with me. So I read that's where I noticed 328 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:51,910 it. He says he start reaching for 329 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,190 it. So but the important thing for 330 00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:58,850 relevant for our discussion is there's power in naming 331 00:20:58,860 --> 00:21:01,590 something to somebody else. And so I think what you've said 332 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,430 is you've got to be honest with yourself. 333 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,050 You have to be honest with God. And I think where that leads 334 00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:12,720 exactly, it leads you to saying, hey, this is something that God 335 00:21:12,730 --> 00:21:15,980 is doing in in my life. I'm not sure what it means. 336 00:21:15,990 --> 00:21:20,280 I'm not sure where it leads, but I am sure enough. 337 00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:22,760 Like I need to speak it. Yeah. 338 00:21:22,810 --> 00:21:27,260 So yeah, I think that the honesty is helpful. 339 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:33,320 And then like is necessary. And then it's got to be concrete 340 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:37,830 in that way of naming it, not just to yourself, not just to 341 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,900 God, but to somebody else. Yeah, because I can name 342 00:21:40,910 --> 00:21:47,490 something to myself and, and sort of just like let it like 343 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:52,630 let it fester, you know, and and I could even name something to 344 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,850 God and be like God would you, you know, just miraculously deal 345 00:21:56,860 --> 00:22:00,370 with this. But it is usually the way that 346 00:22:00,380 --> 00:22:04,450 God works is, is that when we that when we bring something to 347 00:22:04,460 --> 00:22:08,710 light, I think to God and to another that it, that it can 348 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,070 actually, that we can actually be drawn out of those dark 349 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,070 places. Yeah. 350 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,350 Yeah. And and I think it's in naming 351 00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:24,800 to somebody else that you allow them to speak goodness in to the 352 00:22:24,810 --> 00:22:28,560 place of like the almost this like void. 353 00:22:28,770 --> 00:22:31,460 Yeah. So, you know, I think of like 354 00:22:31,470 --> 00:22:39,340 Legion leaves and then like, and then what for this guy like so 355 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:44,920 all of life can change. And he he goes like he, he sits 356 00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:47,500 at the feet of Jesus. He wants to be a disciple. 357 00:22:47,790 --> 00:22:50,440 Jesus gives him something to do in its place. 358 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,150 So there is there's a task given. 359 00:22:54,570 --> 00:22:58,540 Yeah, I think there is a place as well for people to speak what 360 00:22:58,550 --> 00:23:03,300 is true and good into your life in it, in in the place of. 361 00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:06,450 Yeah, the thing. Yeah. 362 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:08,350 OK. So you gotta be honest with 363 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:09,610 yourself. You gotta be honest with God, 364 00:23:09,620 --> 00:23:11,960 and then you have to be honest with somebody else. 365 00:23:11,970 --> 00:23:13,150 Yeah. Yeah. 366 00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:17,020 You know, and obviously we want that to be a safe person who is 367 00:23:17,030 --> 00:23:21,050 gonna walk with you slowly and carefully and. 368 00:23:21,060 --> 00:23:25,750 Follow up with you and to check in and see how things are going. 369 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,990 And you know, I have friends in my life that that I have to 370 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,010 remember to check in with. And it's an intentional thing. 371 00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:36,190 It's like, Hey, how is this going for you? 372 00:23:37,230 --> 00:23:40,480 And, and you know, they're usually pretty good at getting 373 00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:42,600 back to me and they're usually pretty good at being honest. 374 00:23:42,610 --> 00:23:47,390 Or if I feel like they're not being as forthright as I think 375 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,040 they should be, I try to probe a little further and, you know, 376 00:23:50,050 --> 00:23:55,230 like, and not in like a, not in a way that I'm trying to like, 377 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,190 I'm not, I'm not trying to like get like the, the juicy details 378 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,540 of their life. I'm just saying like, hey, are 379 00:24:03,550 --> 00:24:06,890 you being, are you being fully transparent with yourself about 380 00:24:06,900 --> 00:24:08,310 this? You know? 381 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:09,910 Yeah. And so I like that. 382 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,990 So name the question again. How do you ask it to your 383 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,780 friend? You know, like, well, so I 384 00:24:15,790 --> 00:24:18,230 usually say like, how is blank going for you? 385 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,570 Yeah, you know, these days. Which is very different than how 386 00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:25,350 are you doing, Yes or how are things going Yeah, like a 387 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:30,430 specific question is a question that can include accountability 388 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,570 and some level of yeah, hey, let's not do the whole run 389 00:24:34,580 --> 00:24:37,730 around yeah, this, you know, outside skirt the kind of. 390 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:41,460 But The thing is you have to have invited someone into that. 391 00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:46,910 And I'm thinking of, I have a friend who has very specifically 392 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,930 said, I want you to ask me about this. 393 00:24:50,260 --> 00:24:53,020 And I'd say great. It makes it easy when you don't 394 00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:55,550 have to beat around the Bush, that you can just talk about it. 395 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,270 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, great. 396 00:24:58,020 --> 00:25:02,500 So the demon possessed man, he sits at Jesus's feet and I love 397 00:25:02,510 --> 00:25:04,800 these said like that's the place of a disciple. 398 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,240 He, he, he wants to follow Jesus. 399 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:09,570 His life has been changed. He's been saved. 400 00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:13,120 Jesus sends him away. We're going to get to that in a 401 00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:17,750 minute, but in the meantime, there's a whole bunch of 402 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,910 villagers who are. Afraid. 403 00:25:21,050 --> 00:25:23,030 Yeah, and they're not, they're not happy, they're angry. 404 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,810 I think it's safe to safe to say that they're angry. 405 00:25:25,940 --> 00:25:28,690 They asked Jesus till they begged Jesus to leave. 406 00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:34,970 And, you know, again, you touched on a lot of why that 407 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:38,170 might be. And I think in large part it's 408 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,260 the the they're confronted with the power of Jesus and it makes 409 00:25:42,270 --> 00:25:45,590 them uncomfortable and it makes them lose control. 410 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,490 So they they have a situation. It's not great, but it's 411 00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:55,700 controlled, and it's controlled to enough of a degree that 412 00:25:55,710 --> 00:25:57,150 they're comfortable with how things are. 413 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,630 Yeah. Now Jesus demonstrates a greater 414 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,670 power than the power that was in this man. 415 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,850 They were afraid of that. They don't know what is going 416 00:26:07,860 --> 00:26:09,870 on. The pigs are gone. 417 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,390 There's some woe is me. I think, you know, mentality 418 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,230 there. Like what? 419 00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:19,590 Like, what does this mean for like at least the, the guy 420 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,050 didn't, you know, interrupt our livelihood, our ability to work. 421 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,130 It's like that bacon is about to get a lot more expensive and. 422 00:26:27,140 --> 00:26:30,740 This is it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it. 423 00:26:30,750 --> 00:26:32,700 Absolutely. Is I tried to like work that in 424 00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:35,270 the sermon and it didn't it didn't fly. 425 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,380 And so I kind of, but I was like, you know what, saving it 426 00:26:37,390 --> 00:26:45,390 for the podcast. So the question is, where do you 427 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:52,550 think we run the risk of also tipping toward wanting to remain 428 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,730 comfortable and in control? How are some of the ways we do 429 00:26:57,740 --> 00:27:03,070 that rather than truly being confronted by the power of 430 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,670 Jesus? I think that's honestly like 431 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,250 that's our, that's our expertise here in the West. 432 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:16,490 Like, I think in our, like we have so many creature comforts 433 00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:24,380 available to us at every point that, that are, you know, if, if 434 00:27:24,390 --> 00:27:30,780 you are even I, I say like anywhere from like lower middle 435 00:27:30,790 --> 00:27:36,360 class to middle class to upper class, you know, like, like lie, 436 00:27:36,370 --> 00:27:42,710 our life is full of comfort in a way that has not always been the 437 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,130 case for, you know, for much of the world and for much of 438 00:27:45,140 --> 00:27:48,840 history, right? You know, I was, I was just in 439 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,050 Scotland a couple weeks ago and, and, you know, we're walking 440 00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:56,250 around these like these ancient castle ruins and whatnot and 441 00:27:56,260 --> 00:27:59,010 imagining what their life was. And it's like, man, even the 442 00:27:59,020 --> 00:28:02,640 people who were real rich and had like castles, their life 443 00:28:02,650 --> 00:28:06,250 still kind of sucked in some ways, like and made sure they 444 00:28:06,260 --> 00:28:08,370 had lots of vices and comforts and whatnot, but. 445 00:28:08,380 --> 00:28:11,560 They're still hard. Man, like, yeah, there is parts 446 00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:14,040 I think that would have like compared to what we've got now. 447 00:28:14,090 --> 00:28:16,530 Like I, I'll take what we've got now the rather than living in 448 00:28:16,540 --> 00:28:18,300 this castle, you know, like seriously. 449 00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:24,820 So it's, it's everywhere, like like potential vices and, and 450 00:28:24,890 --> 00:28:29,240 like, it's, it's everywhere. And, and I think it, it, it's 451 00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:36,640 gotta be, it's gotta be a choice to say it's a God. 452 00:28:37,270 --> 00:28:43,120 I, I, I don't want comfort to be my, my goal in life and my aim 453 00:28:43,130 --> 00:28:48,090 in life. I can't say that every day of my 454 00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,680 life. You know, I've talked a little 455 00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:54,310 bit and maybe this is a, maybe a concrete example. 456 00:28:54,620 --> 00:28:57,390 I've talked a little bit over the years about some of my, my 457 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,870 challenges with, with chronic pain and, and last September I 458 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,670 had a very major back surgery to correct long standing issue. 459 00:29:07,670 --> 00:29:12,910 And there's been this tension in my soul as we talk about, you 460 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,910 know, chronic pain. I mean, life can be painful 461 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,420 sometimes. As we get old, we we age and we 462 00:29:18,430 --> 00:29:22,700 have more pain in our bodies, life becomes less uncomfortable 463 00:29:22,750 --> 00:29:29,230 or less less comfortable. But for me, I was wrestling 464 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:36,740 with, OK, what is like, what is me wanting and desiring comfort 465 00:29:37,110 --> 00:29:39,700 and wanting to be free from pain. 466 00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:43,880 Hmm. And what is hey, something's 467 00:29:43,890 --> 00:29:46,930 actually not right in my, you know, in my body that needs to 468 00:29:46,940 --> 00:29:49,370 be fixed, right? That was a thing that I was 469 00:29:49,380 --> 00:29:52,850 wrestling with for a long time leading up to and now, I mean, I 470 00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:56,050 can look back now and be like, man, almost a year later, like I 471 00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:58,930 feel so much better. And I'm like, this is this is 472 00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:02,650 better that that sort of thing. That was better to not to not 473 00:30:02,660 --> 00:30:05,650 have that degree of constant pain and discomfort, right? 474 00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:09,650 And yet the tendency is still there. 475 00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:13,960 The tendency is still there, I think, for all of us to reduce 476 00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:16,630 comfort. Sorry, reduce discomfort. 477 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,130 Anything we can do, I keep doing double negatives. 478 00:30:19,610 --> 00:30:23,770 Anything we can do to feel more comfortable, Hmm is seen as a 479 00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:30,260 net good, right? And I don't know, I don't know 480 00:30:30,270 --> 00:30:36,460 how we get over that hurdle. I don't know how we, you know, 481 00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:40,980 collectively as a society or even maybe just even smaller 482 00:30:40,990 --> 00:30:45,710 level as a church to say that that that is actually not the 483 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,740 goal of life because it's not the goal of life. 484 00:30:50,290 --> 00:30:53,000 Yeah. And yet the goal of life is also 485 00:30:53,010 --> 00:30:58,860 not to be like, you know, gluttons for punishment and, you 486 00:30:58,870 --> 00:31:04,520 know, to to constantly to constantly seek seek out painful 487 00:31:04,530 --> 00:31:09,070 situations. But I do feel like we need a bit 488 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,620 of a wake up call. I don't know. 489 00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:11,180 What do you? What do you? 490 00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:14,290 Think what do you I read a book a few years ago called The 491 00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:19,300 Comfort Crisis, and I'm not gonna remember the name of the 492 00:31:19,310 --> 00:31:21,640 author. You can check for us. 493 00:31:21,710 --> 00:31:26,440 I'm on it. Great, but one of one of the 494 00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:29,240 arguments in that book is. That Michael Easter. 495 00:31:29,290 --> 00:31:30,930 Michael Easter. I was gonna guess, Michael, 496 00:31:30,940 --> 00:31:35,720 something so great it's worth reading. 497 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,030 Not, not a religious book, not a Christian book, not a, you know, 498 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,450 discipleship book. But I I think one of the main 499 00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:49,390 points, one of his main arguments is that nobody grows. 500 00:31:50,210 --> 00:31:54,300 You don't get better when you are comfortable. 501 00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:57,080 Yeah, right. Like, and that's just like as 502 00:31:57,090 --> 00:32:06,170 cliche as that is, you grow emotionally typically in seasons 503 00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:08,830 that are easy. Yeah, right. 504 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,010 When I look back on my life, I think most of us would look back 505 00:32:13,020 --> 00:32:16,850 on the moments where we've seen create us growth in our life and 506 00:32:16,860 --> 00:32:19,870 also would associate some of our deepest pains. 507 00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:25,020 So he really like he wrestles that out. 508 00:32:25,070 --> 00:32:30,820 How do we, how do we not become people who, like, pursue 509 00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:37,720 discomfort for the sake of it? Yeah, but who embrace the 510 00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:40,000 reality of it? Because I think that's the 511 00:32:40,010 --> 00:32:41,820 other. That's the thing that I'm 512 00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:48,610 constantly struck by is like we, we do like pursuing pleasure and 513 00:32:48,620 --> 00:32:50,070 avoiding pain. Yeah. 514 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,030 Like that's pretty typically. Like kind of kind of natural. 515 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:57,790 Yeah, yeah. But we all also, I think, would 516 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,620 readily admit that we can't do that perfectly. 517 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,790 Like no matter how hard I try to eliminate pain from my life, 518 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,810 there will be painful experiences. 519 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:15,020 And all I'm doing is, is avoiding until I can't avoid, 520 00:33:15,690 --> 00:33:17,740 right? And so that's why I think we end 521 00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:19,780 up with various addictions and vices. 522 00:33:19,790 --> 00:33:22,240 Like what we're trying to do at the end of the day is in many 523 00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:26,580 ways numb pain of various, like various kinds. 524 00:33:26,590 --> 00:33:29,940 So you get physical pain, chronic physical pain that you 525 00:33:29,950 --> 00:33:33,260 try to numb, you get emotional pain, you have trauma, you have 526 00:33:33,270 --> 00:33:35,200 trauma responses, you have coping mechanisms. 527 00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:37,420 Some are good, some are bad. Like there's a lot of different 528 00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:43,190 pain that we try to avoid. Also, there is for someone who 529 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,650 has a, what we would say is a very good life, there is almost 530 00:33:47,660 --> 00:33:51,870 this like the the malaise of like love life where it's like 531 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,690 almost you, you, you want to, you want to feel something or 532 00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:58,030 you want to numb something of just like the general. 533 00:33:59,530 --> 00:34:02,490 If someone is like generally comfortable and they're just 534 00:34:02,500 --> 00:34:04,960 like, but I want more. Yeah. 535 00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:06,680 You know, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 536 00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:12,510 So like, yeah, I think, yeah, we need to reckon with life being 537 00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:19,860 uncomfortable, yeah. And embrace it and ask, you 538 00:34:19,870 --> 00:34:23,580 know, I, I think this beautifully open-ended question 539 00:34:23,590 --> 00:34:28,620 of what what is, what is Jesus inviting you into in the midst 540 00:34:28,630 --> 00:34:31,100 of it and how is he meeting you in the midst of it? 541 00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:35,340 So, you know, I, again, I, I think it's important that we 542 00:34:35,350 --> 00:34:39,050 came off the storm into this into this story because the 543 00:34:39,060 --> 00:34:42,330 disciples have just like talk about uncomfortable, right? 544 00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:45,719 So physically uncomfortable, in danger, fear for their lives 545 00:34:45,730 --> 00:34:50,380 kind of moment that Jesus navigates them through. 546 00:34:50,489 --> 00:34:53,100 And then they land on this opposite shore where they 547 00:34:53,110 --> 00:34:58,300 typically wouldn't like to go in, in a region where they are 548 00:34:58,370 --> 00:35:05,140 unfamiliar with people. And there's a level of 549 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,800 discomfort in meeting this man with the legion of demons. 550 00:35:09,850 --> 00:35:17,800 And so, you know, I, I think I, I think as much as we can do to 551 00:35:17,810 --> 00:35:27,190 embrace discomfort and wonder our way through it, the more we 552 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,390 will, I think naturally look for and hope for and pray for and 553 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,530 watch for and experience Jesus in the midst of it. 554 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,130 The more we try to numb or avoid or just completely like 555 00:35:39,140 --> 00:35:42,680 everything is comfortable, I can manage everything, everything is 556 00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:45,490 within my control. I can control everything, then 557 00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:50,240 the less we are positioned to experience Jesus in the midst of 558 00:35:50,250 --> 00:35:53,100 that kind of life. So, you know, I think yeah, 559 00:35:53,180 --> 00:35:59,520 don't anyways pursue pursuing comfort, pursuing pleasure, 560 00:35:59,530 --> 00:36:04,120 pursuing the avoidance of pain, even to put it in that negative 561 00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:09,420 way. Ultimately I think will end up 562 00:36:09,470 --> 00:36:13,890 still experiencing discomfort, pain and just might be 563 00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:18,860 difficulty, it might be delayed. And, you know, in those months 564 00:36:18,870 --> 00:36:22,560 where I think we see people and experience ourselves these much 565 00:36:22,570 --> 00:36:26,540 larger crises of now out of nowhere kind of thing. 566 00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:31,170 So, you know, the villagers I think, are in the midst of this 567 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,210 and they do they kind of this like turtle move of like, what 568 00:36:36,220 --> 00:36:38,230 about us? We gotta get rid of this guy. 569 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,790 Yeah, yeah. We're afraid of him. 570 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,490 We're like, let's just wall ourselves off control what we 571 00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:49,090 can control kind of like that seems to be there. 572 00:36:49,260 --> 00:36:52,970 Their MO is to cling back control. 573 00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:55,490 But I still wonder what happens to them once the dust is 574 00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:57,050 settled. And I kind of amused about that 575 00:36:57,060 --> 00:37:01,700 a little bit toward the end of like what, you know, once they, 576 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,660 you know, perhaps an economically recovered from 577 00:37:04,810 --> 00:37:11,380 their, you know, from things like what this man's story. 578 00:37:11,570 --> 00:37:12,980 Yeah. You know, what impact, what 579 00:37:12,990 --> 00:37:16,830 impact might that have had on them as they you know, perhaps 580 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,900 their hearts got softened at some point toward what Jesus had 581 00:37:20,910 --> 00:37:22,080 done in that place. You. 582 00:37:22,090 --> 00:37:27,640 Know so my third question is how do we become like this man who 583 00:37:27,970 --> 00:37:34,490 like really the last word, the final word is like going tell, 584 00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:37,230 right? Go and tell what what God has 585 00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:38,260 done. Yeah. 586 00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:42,700 And so he goes and he tells and I've flipped off the verse right 587 00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:43,770 now. So I was looking for a couple 588 00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:47,040 other passages through our conversation. 589 00:37:47,050 --> 00:37:55,050 But if I flip back over to Luke 8, we've got this, um, the, the 590 00:37:55,060 --> 00:37:59,120 last verse 39, return to your home, like go home, declare how 591 00:37:59,130 --> 00:38:02,760 much God has done for you so that it's like quantifiable, 592 00:38:02,770 --> 00:38:07,530 like go and share the abundance of what has happened and what 593 00:38:07,540 --> 00:38:11,450 you've experienced. And he went away, proclaiming 594 00:38:11,460 --> 00:38:15,010 throughout the whole city how much again, how much Jesus had 595 00:38:15,020 --> 00:38:18,040 done for. Him I love I love that you know, 596 00:38:18,110 --> 00:38:20,710 Jesus like tell what, tell what God's done and then he's like, 597 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,070 I'm gonna tell you how much Jesus has done Like there's 598 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,760 there's some there's a I think I subtle messianic, you know, 599 00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:29,480 component to what's. Happening. 600 00:38:29,490 --> 00:38:33,120 There's a theological statement being made here for sure that 601 00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:36,700 Jesus says go and share what God has done and the man Luke is 602 00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:39,110 being very intentional. The man goes and shares what 603 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,610 Jesus has done. Yeah. 604 00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:45,970 So I can't remember if it was Craddock who had the line or NT 605 00:38:45,980 --> 00:38:50,970 right who points this out, but essentially the same thing that 606 00:38:51,180 --> 00:38:53,930 he says. If you want to tell people what 607 00:38:53,940 --> 00:38:57,680 God has done, tell them what Jesus has done. 608 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,650 And I think we'd take it one step further than what NT Wright 609 00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:06,260 says. Tell them what Jesus has done in 610 00:39:06,270 --> 00:39:07,370 your life. Yeah. 611 00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:09,890 How do we do that, though? Like, and how do we do it in a 612 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:11,650 way that's not. And I love that you say that. 613 00:39:11,660 --> 00:39:13,710 It's not like don't be the jerk Christian. 614 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,150 Yeah, right. Which will say, I think the one 615 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,290 of the lines. But how do we do we talk about 616 00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:24,090 living in this pluralist, multicultural, religiously 617 00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:34,140 diverse secular age forum? Like, how do we share what Jesus 618 00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:36,270 has done? Yeah, in concrete ways. 619 00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:42,800 That isn't like skirting the edges of what Jesus has done. 620 00:39:42,810 --> 00:39:44,450 I know this is like real life transformation. 621 00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:48,120 How do you do it in a way that actually lands in a pluralist 622 00:39:48,610 --> 00:39:52,660 secular society? I I think in some ways it's, 623 00:39:52,670 --> 00:39:58,240 that's the, that's the way you, you must approach in a pluralist 624 00:39:58,250 --> 00:40:05,000 secular society. Because it is rooted in my 625 00:40:05,010 --> 00:40:10,330 experience right here is what Jesus has done in my life here 626 00:40:10,340 --> 00:40:13,880 is like, look, I I like you. You can easily say to someone 627 00:40:13,890 --> 00:40:16,750 I've and I've had conversations like like like this with friends 628 00:40:17,420 --> 00:40:20,530 where, where they are, you know, they, they grew up, they had a 629 00:40:20,540 --> 00:40:22,930 bad experience in church and they're not, you know, 630 00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:27,630 interested in a particular brand of type of Christianity. 631 00:40:28,940 --> 00:40:31,790 But they but they see me and they're like, Hey, you, you seem 632 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,680 like you're somewhat sane individual. 633 00:40:34,690 --> 00:40:39,080 And I'm like, well, you don't really know me, but but you 634 00:40:39,090 --> 00:40:41,760 know, like as we're, as we're talking like, like, look, hey, 635 00:40:41,770 --> 00:40:46,170 here's know that you're, you're wrestling through like, you 636 00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:48,870 know, whether God is real. I know that you're wrestling 637 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,680 through, you know, how there can be all these different, you 638 00:40:52,690 --> 00:40:58,010 know, faiths and whether or not one or the other can be true or 639 00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:00,490 whatever, right? It's like, all I can share is 640 00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:03,970 what Jesus has done, you know, like here's for me. 641 00:41:03,980 --> 00:41:07,910 And, and I think just like, I don't think this flies 642 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:14,240 personally, I don't think this flies super well at A, at a kind 643 00:41:14,250 --> 00:41:18,780 of distant level in terms of like, you know, going to a 644 00:41:18,790 --> 00:41:22,200 stranger and just saying like, Hey, here's what Jesus has done 645 00:41:22,210 --> 00:41:24,300 for me. For me. 646 00:41:24,310 --> 00:41:27,930 It's like my, my neighbors and, and you know, my people, my 647 00:41:27,940 --> 00:41:31,690 friends in, in, in, you know, we're walking to school with, 648 00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:35,520 with walking my daughter to school with, with other parents 649 00:41:35,530 --> 00:41:37,500 and chatting with them and getting to know them and hearing 650 00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:41,420 their stories and them hearing my story and, and them sort of 651 00:41:41,430 --> 00:41:45,870 being like, OK, tell me more. You know, like, and, and that's 652 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,840 been really interesting, like, and, and I, I want more of that. 653 00:41:49,850 --> 00:41:53,200 I admittedly, I wish I, I, I would like more of that. 654 00:41:53,290 --> 00:41:57,980 And it's not as often as I would like because I don't, I, I'm, 655 00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:59,350 I'm the type who doesn't wanna be pushy. 656 00:41:59,390 --> 00:42:01,370 I don't want to, I don't want to be that, you know, I don't want 657 00:42:01,380 --> 00:42:04,120 to be that guy. But there, there is something 658 00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:09,150 people can't refute my story and I and, and, and I can say this 659 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,690 is what this is what God has done. 660 00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:12,540 This is what Jesus has done in my life. 661 00:42:13,210 --> 00:42:16,580 That man like I was going through the ringer with, with 662 00:42:16,590 --> 00:42:21,050 all sorts of just challenges. And, and, and I, you know, the 663 00:42:21,060 --> 00:42:24,930 thing I often point to you is, is I, you know, was working 664 00:42:24,940 --> 00:42:29,640 through some, some struggles from my childhood, some things 665 00:42:29,650 --> 00:42:33,920 that I went through. And, and I would say it was, you 666 00:42:33,930 --> 00:42:36,920 know, my, my psychiatrist, who was a Christian woman, 667 00:42:36,930 --> 00:42:39,640 wonderful. But the way that she brought 668 00:42:39,650 --> 00:42:44,390 Jesus into it, the way that it is, was like Jesus is the one 669 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,510 who brings healing. And, and for me to be able to 670 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,360 say like, hey, like I am, I am forever indebted to through 671 00:42:53,370 --> 00:42:56,490 that, that season of my life where where I was working 672 00:42:56,500 --> 00:43:01,380 through some pretty heavy stuff in my life, but it was Jesus, 673 00:43:01,730 --> 00:43:05,360 you know, it was Jesus who walked with me through that 674 00:43:05,370 --> 00:43:08,770 stuff. And I'm not expecting everyone 675 00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:12,670 to understand that, but I think actually that's where like where 676 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,720 the, the man in the story here, he also would have known a lot 677 00:43:17,730 --> 00:43:20,560 of these people. They would have seen him before. 678 00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:23,100 They would have seen him after, right. 679 00:43:23,220 --> 00:43:28,140 And, and for, for him to be able to say like, Hey, you, you saw 680 00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:32,290 what I was like, look what Jesus has done, you know, and I've 681 00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:34,140 seen that. I've seen that story with, with 682 00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:38,820 many people with people who at my previous church that I worked 683 00:43:38,830 --> 00:43:42,630 at, they had a very large Celebrate Recovery program. 684 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,670 So a lot of, a lot of people with emotional hurts and 685 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,930 addictions and things like that, like the contrast from before 686 00:43:51,940 --> 00:43:54,490 and after. And they would get up there and 687 00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:56,520 say, like, look what Jesus has done. 688 00:43:56,530 --> 00:43:59,370 And it's like, I, I can't refute that. 689 00:43:59,420 --> 00:44:03,490 Like, goodness. And the joy, the joy that this 690 00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:08,730 often accompanying those types of stories and testimonies is in 691 00:44:08,740 --> 00:44:12,270 my mind like irrefutable. So somebody might walk away, be 692 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,890 offended by it. Yeah. 693 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,070 But it's because it's real. Like this is something that you 694 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,450 can't be. You can't, you can't shrug off. 695 00:44:20,140 --> 00:44:22,870 I think that's the only thing that I would add because yes to 696 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:28,370 all of that that you've shared, you know, like I, I do, I, I 697 00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:30,710 have conversations with people who say, I don't know where to 698 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:35,740 begin with evangelism. And so they, we say, you know, 699 00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:39,070 begin with your own story, like talk about what Jesus has done 700 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,630 in your life, wrestle it out, think it through, pray through 701 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,970 it, like wonder, ask yourself like what, how really has my 702 00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:50,830 life changed? And almost allow, like allow 703 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,590 Jesus to confront you in that again. 704 00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:55,410 Like if you're struggling to really think, well, it's like my 705 00:44:55,420 --> 00:44:57,710 life really isn't that much different. 706 00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,650 Like, I was kinda, you know, I was addicted to work before and 707 00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:07,920 I was, I'm still addicted to working like a like a low, like 708 00:45:07,930 --> 00:45:10,760 allow yourself to be confronted in that and challenged. 709 00:45:10,770 --> 00:45:12,520 And maybe things still need to change. 710 00:45:12,530 --> 00:45:15,200 Maybe there like for all of us, yes, things still need to 711 00:45:15,210 --> 00:45:16,020 change. Yeah. 712 00:45:16,490 --> 00:45:21,070 But begin with your story and share the hope that rattles 713 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,100 around in your bones. That's the place to begin. 714 00:45:24,410 --> 00:45:27,980 I had a Prof who used to quote, and I've probably used this 715 00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:32,410 quote already in this podcast. So I had a profit seminar who 716 00:45:32,420 --> 00:45:37,450 would quote John McKay, who was a missionary and then Prof and 717 00:45:37,540 --> 00:45:40,030 president at the seminary that that I attended. 718 00:45:40,580 --> 00:45:43,390 He has this line. You have to earn the right in 719 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,770 any sort of mission work. You have to earn the right to be 720 00:45:45,780 --> 00:45:48,790 heard. And that's the way to do it. 721 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,460 You don't do it by opening up your Bible and saying, Hey, let 722 00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:57,310 me argue my way into your life and you into faith. 723 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,890 And like, I know that that's like even comical to kind of 724 00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:02,920 suggest like not many people are running around trying to do 725 00:46:02,930 --> 00:46:05,220 that, wanting to do like that. That's that's terrifying to many 726 00:46:05,230 --> 00:46:06,470 people, but. There are people. 727 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,560 Though I think we have that perception of it. 728 00:46:08,630 --> 00:46:14,160 And so it starts with like relational evangelism. 729 00:46:14,170 --> 00:46:17,820 And I don't mean like date somebody to convert them, I mean 730 00:46:17,830 --> 00:46:18,910 it. Figured to convert. 731 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,160 Yeah, that's the way. Thank you. 732 00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:22,240 That's what I was looking for it. 733 00:46:22,250 --> 00:46:25,960 It begins with real life relationship, right? 734 00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:31,640 People need to know you and you need to earn the right to be 735 00:46:31,650 --> 00:46:35,540 heard and trusted in someone's life, just like others need to 736 00:46:35,550 --> 00:46:38,150 earn your trust. Like there are real life 737 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,580 relationships that ought to be impacted and shaped by by your 738 00:46:42,590 --> 00:46:47,740 faith, but you gotta have the relationship so you earn the 739 00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:49,230 right to be heard. And then the other piece that I 740 00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:53,580 would also say is Leslie New Begin talks about how, like, the 741 00:46:53,590 --> 00:46:57,180 gospel is offensive. So, so don't be afraid of 742 00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:59,530 offending somebody because of the gospel. 743 00:46:59,830 --> 00:47:02,100 Be careful not to offend them because you're being a jerk. 744 00:47:02,110 --> 00:47:05,380 Yes, yeah, yeah. Like let Jesus offend people. 745 00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:08,860 Let's not offend people ourselves, but let's let the 746 00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:13,300 gospel be be offensive. As we saw in the story that that 747 00:47:13,340 --> 00:47:17,120 they were repelled by by what happened in the events that 748 00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:18,920 occurred and what Jesus had done. 749 00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:21,860 And that is the nature of the gospel, that there will be 750 00:47:21,870 --> 00:47:26,640 people that will be drawn in and people that will, whether it's 751 00:47:26,730 --> 00:47:30,880 forever or just that that season, they will be repelled 752 00:47:30,890 --> 00:47:34,200 because they're resistant to hearing they are whatever, 753 00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:36,140 right? And maybe because something in 754 00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:39,520 them needs to be offended, yeah, maybe they need to like maybe 755 00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:45,440 the offence is often necessary for so you get legion who is 756 00:47:45,450 --> 00:47:51,010 more than offended by Jesus, right by Jesus rebuke and it's 757 00:47:51,020 --> 00:47:53,720 what's necessary. Like it calls the thing out of 758 00:47:53,790 --> 00:47:57,430 out of him. So yeah, I think it requires 759 00:47:57,500 --> 00:48:01,870 real life relationship and also it requires a little bit of 760 00:48:01,940 --> 00:48:05,270 offence. Yeah, but allow Jesus to be 761 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,230 offensive. Don't be offensive yourself. 762 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:11,910 Yeah. In his last words. 763 00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:15,580 I don't think so. This was a it was, it was a 764 00:48:15,590 --> 00:48:17,660 challenge. Like I was telling the prayer 765 00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:22,940 team before we gathered, I was like, I, I struggle with, you 766 00:48:22,950 --> 00:48:26,300 know, with passages like that deal with with like intense 767 00:48:26,310 --> 00:48:29,860 stuff like this. So it was a but God, I think 768 00:48:29,870 --> 00:48:34,630 stretched me and, and I was always excited to, to sort of 769 00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:38,050 draw out some of the things that we've talked about here and, and 770 00:48:38,060 --> 00:48:41,290 to do it here anyway, It was, it was, it was, it was fun. 771 00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:47,480 And I pray that it encourages us as we try to wrestle some of 772 00:48:47,490 --> 00:48:49,470 this out as well. But I want to say thanks for 773 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,630 doing it well and for leading us through it in like a really 774 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,020 wise, astute, powerful way. And we hope that it helps you 775 00:48:57,030 --> 00:49:00,850 have some good conversation into this week because we know even 776 00:49:00,860 --> 00:49:04,010 within our own church, like our own little congregation, people 777 00:49:04,020 --> 00:49:06,360 are going to approach passages like this differently. 778 00:49:06,490 --> 00:49:09,420 And we're going to be offended at it for different reasons. 779 00:49:09,650 --> 00:49:12,020 And it's going to challenge different things inside of us. 780 00:49:12,110 --> 00:49:14,520 The thing that I would just say is if it's challenging something 781 00:49:14,530 --> 00:49:17,360 inside of you, talk to somebody about it because that's probably 782 00:49:17,370 --> 00:49:19,680 a good thing. Lean in rather than check out. 783 00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:22,300 Yeah, absolutely. We hope you have a great week 784 00:49:22,350 --> 00:49:24,250 and we will see you in the next episode.