Hey everyone, welcome to the Sunday.
Sit down. And I don't have a cool pun for
that this week because it is Tuesday.
It's not Sunday, but we're talking about Sunday.
We are here today with Lindsey Setsima, who was preaching this
past this past Sunday through Luke Chapter 9, The story of the
feeding of the multitude. And this is the job.
Not the 5000, 5000. Not the 5000 which only counts
men. It was feeding the multitude.
I I might have given a little Boo to not not.
I called you out on your Boo. You didn't let me get to the
point where I was gonna be like, no, we're not gonna do that.
But. That's OK.
It was it was a visceral reaction to, you know, for those
who weren't in there on Sunday. You know, Lindsey, you were
talking about how the 5000 only included men and that with women
and children, it would have likely been double, triple,
quadruple. Absolutely.
Yeah. And And so and so I was just
booing at the fact that patriarchal society.
And how they count, How they count people being.
There. But anyway, this is fun.
You and I have never done this. Before No, I kind of just like,
Oh my gosh, where is this gonna go?
So for those who don't know, this is my wife and we have
never I've, I've never interviewed her for her before.
We've never done a podcast together.
We talked about doing it at one point and then it which has
never. Happened, it just never had a
kid. Yeah, life and life and stuff,
all that stuff. Yeah, But here we are several
years later. Trying it out, trying it out for
court. Right, we'll see how it goes.
We'll see how it goes. So anyway, we are here to have a
conversation about this passage. And I was really, I was really
encouraged by a, a few conversations I had with people
after the service and just the way that they were reflecting on
this. And I think that what I want to
do today is, is get a little bit more specific and in some of the
ways in which we struggle. So I'll, I'll, I want to read
the passage and then I want to highlight those, those 5 words
that you mentioned as being sort of kind of the pillars of this,
of this passage. So great.
I'm gonna read here and then we'll get into it.
So this is starting adverse 10 of Luke Chapter 9 says when the
apostles returned they reported to Jesus what they had done.
Then he took them with him and they withdrew by themselves to a
town called Bethsaida. But the crowds learned about it
and followed him. He welcomed them and spoke to
them about the Kingdom of God and healing those who needed
healing. Late in the afternoon the 12
came to him and said send the crowd away so that so they can
go to the surrounding colleges and countryside and find food
and lodging because we are in a remote place here.
He replied, you give them something to eat.
They answered we have only 5 loaves of bread and two fish
unless we go and buy food for all this crowd.
About 5000 men were there but he said to the disciples have them
sit down in groups of about 50 each.
The disciples did so, and everyone sat down, taking the
five loaves and two fish and looking up from heaven.
He gave thanks and broke them. Then he gave them and the
disciples to distribute to the people.
They all ate and were satisfied and the disciples picked up 12
basketfuls of broken pieces that were all that were leftover.
So there are 5 words that you highlighted.
Welcome. Give everyone satisfied and
broken. I loved the way that you, I'm a
little biased, but but I love the way that you structured
that. It was a little different.
Than yeah. Done.
It's not typically by preaching style.
So I typically go more kind of thematically or group big things
together. But I think when I was reading
that passage, I could not get those words out of my head as I
was I was looking at them. And I'd like to think that was
the spirit probably like maybe we should go in a little bit of
a different direction than maybe what you would typically have
done. So, and it and it really worked.
I loved the way that it sort of just illuminated these, these
different parts of the passage and gave them a lot of life.
And so we're going to kind of centre, we might not touch on
all of them like granularly, but we're going to touch on, on some
of them more broadly. So the first thought, and this
is a broad question, these 5 words are such a great picture
of the Kingdom as as you highlighted.
And interconnected. I just want to add that in.
Like, I don't think that it's possible that each one could
also stand on its own. But what I really loved is that
I think they collectively form a picture of the Kingdom.
I don't think any one of them is really complete without the
other. So you can't welcome without
being having a spirit of giving and generosity.
Exactly. And it's not giving and
generosity. It's not for everyone.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, well, like welcome
doesn't mean you welcome some. Welcome means you welcome
everyone. So you have to look at those two
together. Yeah.
So when I think about the Kingdom and when I think about
the church and the way that the church should function and I
want to like maybe as a brief aside, like separate like
Kingdom from the church. Kingdom is, is like the bigger,
broader overarching and the church, I often think of the
church as sort of the vessel by which the Kingdom is lived out.
There's a guy, Reggie McNeil wrote a book many years ago that
I'm failing to remember the name of, but he, he uses the metaphor
of the church is an airport and the Kingdom is the destination.
And I, and I always like that because it's like the airport is
essential for travel. If you want to go to Italy, you
got to go to the airport, right? And, and, and so the Church is
the vehicle, the vessel for the Kingdom to live out the Kingdom,
to do the work of the Kingdom. Yeah, I mean, I think I, I
appreciate the metaphor would say that I think the church is
also part of the Kingdom. Like it's not just the means to
an end. The Church also exists with
within the. Kingdom, that's why I don't see
it as like just merely a means to an end.
You're right, but it is because it's it's a crucial component of
the Kingdom, but it is, it is the, IT is the launching pad to.
Do all. Of the work, right, it is.
And cause it's a, it's a place where we naturally gather and we
have to like work out this stuff in real time and real life,
right? The Kingdom is the theoretical,
you know, until we have to actually do it with one another,
with people. Sure, every everything is just
an idea until it is actually lived out and it is meant to be
lived out. And so I want to like think
about churches functioning in light of the Kingdom, in light
of these these 5 words of welcome.
Yeah. And and giving and involving
everyone and and being satisfied and and broken is an interesting
one. That it was the weirdest word to
kind of throw in there because all of the rest of the words
have like, whether whether or not we live them out.
Well, all the other words give you warm, happy feelings.
Yeah, broken does not typically give you.
That so like, I think it's worth like just taking a moment and
actually spelling out, not literally, but talking through
how the church can can do some of this like great nuts and
bolts kind of stuff, right, Like and maybe even just like go
through them quickly and think like, you know, rapid fire.
Let's talk through some ideas. How can we increase our Kingdom?
Welcome for for people. Yeah, that's a question.
It's like, OK, just throwing it out there.
How do we increase our our Kingdom?
Welcome. I mean, I think welcome speaks
to, like we talked about on Sunday, welcome isn't just about
a hello or a greeting or a social courtesy.
The welcome here is about actually embracing people, being
happy that they're there, letting them know that you
genuinely appreciate them and that you value them.
There was no test for the people to be available.
Like whoever wanted to come and see Jesus came and saw Jesus,
and it says that Jesus welcomed all of them there.
Was the barrier of entry was. Yeah, the barrier of entry was
real low in this. Get there.
Come on. Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, the disciples, for whatever reason, or Jesus and
the disciples, I should say, they were somehow in a place
that could, I mean, I don't think it's an amphitheater, but
they were in a place where all of these people could also be,
right? Like if they had really, I mean,
if they really wanted to just meet by themselves, they could
have met in an upper room and at home or something.
But they, they are gathering in a place that also is primed for
people to be there with them. I do think there's something
about welcome here. Like the crowd obviously came to
Jesus. I think there is.
And maybe this is where kind of the metaphor, the passage
doesn't fail us, but it it doesn't show the complete
picture is that I think welcome can also be going into spaces
where people already are not necessarily people always coming
to you. That's the example that we we
see here. But again, when you're talking
about 1520 thousand people, how else was this really supposed to
look? Yeah, yeah.
So. But yeah, I think welcome,
welcome is the warmth. Welcome is the invitation.
Welcome is is I love that low barrier of entry of like, I mean
when you think, I mean, it's kind of like the word that
defines itself. Welcome means that everyone is
welcome, but welcome means open. I I really meant that welcome
means open arms like it's. Yeah, I often think it through
as, as someone kind of from a staffing perspective responsible
for our welcome process of church in some ways.
I I'm often thinking through the gaps, you know, if, if someone,
if someone comes and they are thought greeted, which is a form
of welcome, obviously, and they're not treated hospitably
and all, all of these different things, right.
Like there's some real practical stuff there that I'm, you know,
we're in the process of trying to really think through and
revamp in some ways. But but I think like you can get
lost in all those details. And it can become coercive in
some ways. Like there can be like, come up
and we'll give you a present and we'll bring you on stage and
we'll clap for you. And it's like, it's I doing
wrong. I am sure that, that the places
and spaces that do that they, they do, I think they have a
good heart behind it. Like I, I, I'm not questioning
that. But it's also, you know, we
talked about meeting people where they're at.
Like there's people where it's, it's some for people.
It's really hard to walk into a church or go into that gathering
or take that step and like, I'm going to be in a small group at
someone's house. Like that's really, really hard
for them. And I think welcome, you know,
we talked about like meeting needs in this passage, obviously
Jesus meeting the core food need that people had.
But on a more broader context, meeting people needs is also
meeting them and where they're at and welcoming where they're
at and that being OK. And then they sometimes
overwhelming people with five people around and, and ever
like, you know, we talked about giving people a cup of coffee
you don't want, you don't want like 8 people doing that.
Because that's. Too much coffee?
I'm an introvert that I like. If you did that to me, I'd be
like, Oh my gosh, I need to run away right now.
Like this might be too much for me.
But I think just at a broader level, I think that there is
there's there ought to be in in all churches and and in our
church. This like just this willingness
to go above and beyond in our, in our embrace of those who have
been around for many years, those who have returned after
many years away, those who are brand new, right that that are,
are embrace and welcome of everyone as they come into our
space. And I like that idea of
potentially that, you know, being extended to when we go out
to other spaces. But, you know, obviously,
practically speaking, we are often inviting people into our
space, whether it is for a church service, whether it's for
a community event, you know, like I think about the, the
garden open house that we had a few weeks ago and, and wanting
to make that a place that feels very welcoming and open.
We offer free food. We offer, you know, I just think
it's, it's. Yeah, Also say the one thing I
would add is a word that maybe not enough churches throw around
is like the concept of being accessible as well.
And I mean that in in all of its forms.
I mean that for people who have physical disabilities that need
a building to be accessible, people that have barriers to
listening or sitting in rows or learning in specific ways.
Like I, I think that there's a lot of creative energy that
could be put into making spaces accessible for people and that
being part of our welcome so. Our kids ministry coordinator,
she's done a lot of great work and wanting me wanting to make
sure that our space is accessible for, for kids of
varying needs and, you know, having, you know, headphones for
kids with sensory challenges. Yeah.
Exactly. And we're working on other other
things that will make sure that kids that have other other needs
are able to enjoy and enter into Sunday school as well.
Yeah, I would say like, no, no space is going to be perfect.
And it's not about creating a perfect space.
It's it is about, I think that the being genuine about you're
welcome, being genuine about the reasons that you want to do,
having that in kind of intrinsic motivation that is thinking
about it like a home. Like I want people who step into
our home. I can actually say that now I
want people who are in our home. I want them to feel comfortable
there. I want them to feel like we are
happy to have them there. It doesn't matter what they
believe. It doesn't matter what they look
like. It does.
Those things don't matter.
I want them when they are in our home to feel like there is a
sense of warmth and belonging there.
And I and, and how do we bring that out to a macro level at a
church for people I think is important?
That's great. OK, next word give, gosh, give
and and so obviously like giving is correct connected to
generosity. Sure.
And, and, and just thinking, thinking through, I guess
sharing and, and I, I like that idea that you said out of
giving, not necessarily being equated with loss, that, that
there is something to be gained when we give and there is
something that, that when we, when we do this together, there
is, there is something beautiful that happens.
Do you think I mean like it's funny, so often when we talk
about give, the words are we give away like even that concept
of like it's going from you, it's going far from you.
Is you're right. We that is intrinsically
connected or or often in language connected to the
concept of give as where I mean at its most basic level in the
sounds, you know, like it sounds like a little bit like
self-righteous Christian, which I'm not trying to be, but it's
one of those like nothing is ours, like the earth is yours
and everything in it. So I'm 24, nothing is ours.
And I think that's a hard thing for people to kind of reconcile
in their brain. But what you have been given you
are a steward of and being a steward of something means at
times putting it towards another use like and even the word give
like still, it still makes that image of oh, it was mine to
give. But it's it's really more of a
stewarding like you're redirecting it to to a greater
need potentially. We have like a really tangible
picture of that in the church here.
You know, for those who have been around for the past couple
of years, we've been a branch of the Guelph Food Bank.
We're satellite location. And often people often ask us
where do you like, where do you get all the food from?
Are you dependent entirely on, you know, donations from the
church? I said no, we are a satellite
location for the Gulf Food Bank. They twice a week, they will,
they will make it, they will make 2 deliveries per week.
And we are in fact, we are stewards to then give that food
to those in need, right? That, you know, so you could
think of the Gulf Food Bank is gone and, and that we are then
becoming, we become the stewards of, of these gifts that we give
to other people, right. And there's something, I think
there's something in that for us to think about.
And as a church, how are we growing and stretching our, our
generosity? And, and sometimes that's
uncomfortable. Sometimes it's, it's hard to
especially when you want to. And we'll get into this when we
look at, you know, satisfaction and whatnot, like when we, when
we want to make sure that we've been looking after ourselves.
Yeah. Giving his heart.
Well, and it's not giving is not a call to neglect yourselves.
I think again, like given satisfied are the most related
concepts I would say out of all of them.
It's, I don't think that again, and it's, I think I said this
on, so I hope I said this on Sunday, that it's not a call to
like asceticism or deprivation or I don't think, I don't
believe that's what what Jesus is calling, calling anyone to.
But it is a call to generosity and to sharing and to seeing
needs and saying, if I can meet that need, I have in some way a
duty to do that as part of this community, as part of this
Kingdom. If I see genuine need, I need to
look internally. We need to look into as a
church, what is our role in using what we have provided to
help meet a given need. Again, just like with welcome,
we're not going to be perfect at it.
And not every need can be met by us, by an individual, by a
church that that's not possible. But maybe there's a way we can
connect it to someone else. Like I, I've worked in, in
social services before and no social service agency can meet
every need for the people who come to them, but they can also
say, I, I know a way to help you find that I can resource you in,
in another way. So I love that image of giving
is that is, I mean, I think all of these are, are internally
reflective to some ways. And it's if I'm seeing need,
what am I doing? Am I, am I closing my fists?
Am I crossing my hands? Am I saying I can't deal with
that? Or is there is there more of an
openness to dealing with that? And I do think that there is,
you know, a job for the church to do.
Our church, every church, should be asking what is the next thing
that God is calling us to? In terms of absolutely.
Generous what is the what is the thing that the spirit might be
leading us toward and, and I know that, you know, for for
court, right? It seems like it's food
security, right. That's been a big rallying cry
for us with our food security garden, with the food cupboard
and other aspects of well, even even like when people in our
community are, are like, you know, grieving or they've had,
you know, surgery or illness, like man meals, they just got
like food is food is, is seemingly a critical component.
And so it's like, what's the next?
What's the next thing in that way, you know, there, there's
more that we can do. We need to make sure we do it
responsibly. We need to make sure that we can
actually like, sustainably do that moving forward, right?
So we gotta make, you know, every church has to decide for
themselves what? What they can do, But I also
think we need to like, not play it too safe, right?
That God stretches. Us, yes.
That stretches us when we when we are faithful and in calling.
Well, and there's a piece to this story, and this is the
thing probably we did not touch on on Sunday at all.
There is a faith component to this story because the disciples
are asked to give up what food they have for themselves so that
they could help kind of meet the needs of others.
So I mean, we talked about give. There is an element of, of maybe
sacrifice in here. There's also that element of
trust. I mean, I think again, we talked
about on Sunday, but you know, this is called a wilderness.
The the text says remote place is better translated as
wilderness. Wilderness is a, is a place
often of testing of trust. You know, you see it with the
Israelites, with God providing their their daily needs.
You see it with Elijah and Kerith and God meeting his needs
that through the Ravens. And then again, that's a place
of wilderness. So wilderness is about God's
provision. It's also how are we trusting?
How are we, how are we leaning into knowing that God provides
abundantly even when we don't, you know, for the disciples,
they don't they don't know what Jesus is going to do.
They they see again, they see 55 lobes divisions like that's not
enough. What on earth could possibly
happen here? And but again, it was leaning in
to trust, leaning into, OK, I guess we're going to trust that
God is going to do something here.
He's going to show up and and he often does so.
That's good. That's good.
OK, everyone. Next word.
This one probably could be a little shorter because it's
simple. Everyone means everyone means
everyone. But I think that, you know, just
to to riff on that a little bit, like everyone, even in spite of
maybe theological differences, lifestyle differences, Yep, you
know, like there was no way for the Jesus and the disciples to
like, you know, do some sort of like.
There's no background. No background.
There's no background checks. On these as they arrive.
And that's a challenge. That's an attention that when we
consider our our welcome and our embrace and our generosity
toward people, that the challenge is, is that it's gonna
be uncomfortable because there's people that we're not gonna
agree with and that we're not gonna even necessarily like,
like on a social level. Yeah.
I think that everyone, like you said, everyone can be shorter
because it's simpler and we know what it means.
I agree with that. I also think that when you like,
when we think of everyone, it's easy to think of like our
friends or the people that, oh, I really want to get to know
them better. Like if that's easy, it's think
of the people that you struggle with most and what does it mean
to welcome that person? Yeah, not in a way that
jeopardizes safety or things like that.
Like, I mean, there's always, there's always a balance.
But what what does it mean? I mean, again, I think that we
so quickly go like, I would we love the picture of welcome.
And then I'm like, OK, but like that means welcoming this and
welcoming that and welcoming this and.
Yeah, it, it ends up becoming very messy very quickly.
And when we when we broaden our, our welcome to everyone and, and
that is a that's a challenge. That's something that, you know,
we've worked in a few different spheres, you and I of, of
ministry you worked at, at, at Hope House, Yep, for a number of
years. And, and there is a like, when
we consider folks that are, that are struggling with addiction,
folks that are struggling with housing security, there's,
there's challenging situations out there, like absolutely
people that are having extreme mental health crises.
And, and then, and then for, for others who maybe that is not
maybe in their purview as much. Like just think about the type
of person that you get along with the least, someone who kind
of represents your ire in some way, right?
Like that is like, we gotta figure out how we do that.
Well, you know, and, and we're not going to do it perfectly
and. How do we love those people?
Like, like, like and again, like.
I could be the challenge to someone and recognizing that
that me and and what I represent and the things I believe that
could be a big challenge for someone else.
And how would I want that person to embrace me and see the
fullness of me? Yeah, right.
And being able to extend that to others.
So. Yeah, it's, it's hard and and
we, we need, we need God. We need God's strength because
people are challenging, including me.
I am also people. I'm not gonna.
Say it this way, she's like I can confirm.
I can confirm that. But again, I can be challenging
too. We never we never want to think
of ourselves as being the challenge, but we what we would
be to some people. And I think just again, how do
we how do we lean into people with curiosity?
How do we lean into them with trying to think well of them,
trying to assume the best about people?
Yeah, Yeah. I don't it's, it's one of those
it's very. Hard.
And then also how are we not naive?
You know, to sure there is a certain, especially when when
you're dealing with, you know, there's subsets of people where
who will try to take advantage and who will try to, you know,
like utilize or yeah, take advantage of someone's kindness,
right? And I've been in that situation
where where someone not not at court, right, but or someone has
popped in my office and they've said I need this, that and
everything. And you know you're believing.
It's earnest. And then you find out they were
lying. Well, and again, we have to go
back, it's easy to think of these as one-on-one
interactions, like all individual one-on-one
interactions. If we think about, you know,
church spaces or, or any place where there is a group of
people, everyone has to mean everyone where it means of
welcoming. I, I, I want to like, I hate
reducing people down to like letters and things like that.
But like if, if welcoming one person or one group means that
other people are unsafe or feel unsafe or there's something
there, again, everyone often means doing the best for a group
of people. And, and what does that look
like? And understanding.
Yeah. I mean, I in our one-on-one
interactions, I do think that we should be welcoming, but I think
it's easy to think of things in a very individualistic way.
And we have to also look, take it, take it broadly into what
does it look like to be a welcoming group.
Yeah. No, that's helpful.
That's good. OK, next word.
Satisfied. This I think is the hardest one.
I think in many ways I absolutely it's.
Right up there with give the two together.
Struck me that being satisfied is a particular weakness in here
in the West. You know, we struggle with not
having enough for perceivably not having enough.
We there, we do hoard things sometimes.
You do have access. We.
And yet I know that many of us, including you and I, wrestle
with how to be satisfied with what we have, both now and for
the future. You know, how do we embody this
idea of everyone having their needs met, everyone being
generous, everyone being satisfied will also say looking
out for ourselves for the long haul.
You know, I'm thinking particularly of something like
retirement that many of us are, you know, have a lot of
existential dread about when we think about not having enough,
when we when we get to that point where we want to stop
working or we can no longer work full time.
So, you know, is it wrong to save for retirement when there
are so many who don't have enough today?
Is that not similar to like our, you know, when Jesus prays as
you alluded to, you know, give us Our Daily Bread or like the
manna and the quail in in the deserts?
Can I leave now? Choking.
No, it's one of those, I gosh, those are big questions and I
think we have to wrestle with I, I mean, part of me is hesitant
to give an answer only because I don't know if I have an answer
formulated in my head that I am 100% happy with.
I mean, I think we can talk about it.
I mean, do I think it is wrong to save for the future?
No, some people do. Some people do.
I, I don't think it's wrong to save for the future.
Do I think saving means that you have to have lifestyle X when
you could accept lifestyle why? Or when lifestyle Y is more than
enough? But you I think that we have to
ask bigger questions about needs and what is a need.
And again, it comes back to the question of satisfaction.
Is there is a wisdom in knowing when to say enough?
I think you see a creation. He knew he was that's after six
days. It was of course, he could have
kept adding. He could have done a continuous
output or, or, you know, whatever.
But he says, no, I'm going to stop that.
I, I've done enough. There is enough here that is
complete. I and I think there is a rhythm
that we need to know to learn when to say is enough.
I don't know that enough is the same for every person.
It could be these are very I'm gonna How about I just turn the
question back on you? What do you think?
What do you think about that? Yeah, I, I mean, yeah, this is
again, This is why I think this is a genuine wrestling with our
within our Western culture. And and I I don't think there
are hard and fast answers. I think that the Bible, the
Bible offers lots of kind of wisdom for how we approach our,
you know, our, our possessions and resources and, and even
money, right? Yeah.
It's not something that the Bible is shy to talk about.
The Bible talks about money a lot more than many, many other
subjects. Right.
Yeah. And so like, it's clearly
something that matters a lot. It's clearly something that that
we need to like, we need to be in prayer over.
We need to like deeply consider the implications of what we are
doing, how we're doing it like. And I think that maybe what I
could say is that for some people, the natural bent is I
just, I'm just gonna do everything that culture says
that I'm supposed to do, that I'm supposed to work and climb
the ladder, make as much money as humanly possible, and maybe.
I'll retire as soon as I possibly can so I can travel the
world when like. Retirement is not in the Bible.
Like Moses didn't retire. Yeah.
Well, then you start, I mean, I agree.
And then you start getting to the conversations about like,
well, they didn't live as long as we did.
You have to live longer. And there's all of these
questions about that. I mean, I will.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually retract something that I said
or, or add to something that I said earlier without losing
where you're going. But retirement, I think that if
you are either spending or saving and you have no margin
for generosity, you are never satisfied with what you're
getting. You always need to have more or
new or better that you stay up at night or often throughout
your day. Think about the scarcity you
have, not having enough, worrying about it constantly.
It keeps you up at night when you are living a very
comfortable life. I would say those are kind of
internal checkpoints we have to look at.
Like if I, if we, and I mean I'll, I'll use we.
But if we were ever saving to the point where we could no
longer be generous because we were so concerned with our own
security, we have lost the plot. We have lost the plot of of what
it's supposed to be about. And that's what I mean.
Like I don't have a problem with people saving, but when it comes
at the cost of all the other words, when it's you're doing it
because you can't be satisfied. If you're doing it because
giving and sharing is just so hard for you.
If you're doing it because you're trusting in your
security, and that rather than trusting your security in God,
then there are questions that you need to ask yourself about
your posture towards those. Things, I think you hit the nail
on the head there like that when when there is no margin for that
generosity, that's that should be a a big flashing warning
sign. Yeah, that something is not
right. Absolutely, Yeah.
No, I think that like if we, if you have your daily needs met
and you have some leftover at the end of the day, can you save
some? Yeah, I think you can.
If you're saving so much that you're you're never going to
need all that and you're you're ignoring the fact that someone
else doesn't have their daily needs met.
Like if you, if you can do that in good conscience, ignore that.
Ignore a need that you see that, you know, you could meet by you
having just that little less savings or they say you're
having you have little less access later on.
I mean, I think you would have to check your heart posture.
And I say that with no judgment because I am a person who, I
mean, I think I said this on Sunday, I love a good plan.
Like I love a good I, I love a good plan.
And and that's there's a natural wiring in me towards that.
But it can also become a distraction of if I don't follow
this plan exactly, there's going to be failure when I don't think
that's how we're called to live. I think we need to, I mean, I
don't want to get this into a conversation about tithing or
whatever it has to be and we can cut this out if it needs to go,
but I think some people often stick, wait, I'm hitting the
microphone. I think people stick way too
closely to like the idea of 10%. I think some people could be
called to give 5%. I think some people could be
called to give 25%. I think that your tithing needs
to be a very a reflective spirit filled conversation about what
you have the capacity to meet in terms of other people's needs.
I think the idea that it's 10% and beyond 10%, I can do
whatever the heck I want in this world.
I I think there is. I would question that attitude,
I would say. I I, I love that I'll let you
say that rather than cause it's like it's hard for.
For a pastor when you're no, but I think typing I mean I would
also say tithe tithing I think is in generosity.
Do I think you have to give all 10% to the church?
This might be an unpopular opinion for a pastors wife.
We might have to cut this part out.
I I don't I don't think that tithing has to only be to a
church. I think you should be giving to
your church. I think you should be giving if
you are worshipping in, in a community and you agree with the
mission and the vision of that church, you should be tithing to
it. Again, I, I don't think it has
to be a static 10%. I think some people give more.
There are people who live in more scarcity and giving is
really hard for them. And I think we need to honor
that. I think telling them if you're
not giving 10%, you're not a good Christian like I, I have an
issue with that, that mentality across the board.
And also, and again, as as a pastor, it always, it's very
fraught with like, because it just, it feels very like self,
self-serving and yeah, even self preserving in some ways, right.
Like, and, and so I, I feel often very uncomfortable with
those sorts of conversations, but I like, I like the way that
you approach that. And yeah.
I think generosity needs to, you know, I think that I love the
idea of generosity. I think of generosity for a tax
receipt, which I, I utilize tax receipts.
Again, we don't talk about this, but like I, I give to charities
and you get tax receipts for it. I also think informal generosity
is important of seeing again, seeing a need, meeting it and
getting nothing in return I think.
Flipping someone some cash? Flipping someone some cash, I
mean making food, having people over to having a big group of
people over your house that costs money.
Like I think that having making sure that you are being generous
with your resources goes, it's a bigger mindset than sometimes
what we reduce it to is what I will say.
Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if we ever talked
on being satisfied, knowing when to say enough.
That's being satisfied. OK, we're good knowing when to
say enough. And we've said enough for now.
For said enough. Let's touch before we wrap up,
let's talk about that final word broken.
And you talked about the the foreshadowing of of this being
an image of the Last Supper and then ultimately Jesus's body
being broken for our sin. I I just so rich, but
practically speaking, OK, how do we, how do we think about
brokenness? How do we think about the act
of, of the bread being broken? Is, is there something for us to
consider when we when we look at our lives, our lives as a
church? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of
layers there to broken because brokenness in, in this passage I
think is the is the mechanism to abundance.
Jesus breaks the bread and then we see the miracle of
multiplication. There, there's something.
There's something. There there's I know, and I
actually struggled to articulate it when I was writing.
I'm like, I know there's something there, but I can't
quite. Well, OK, so brokenness.
And if we use that in kind of like our more modern vernacular,
which I think works like when we think about like I am a, I am a
broken individual. I I am, you know, there are
parts of my life that are fractured and out of order from
the way that it ought to be and there but there is something
that happens when we, when we share that brokenness.
Right, like, and, and I think that's what I was trying to get.
I'm gonna take I'm gonna take it away from you.
Great. But like when, when there is an
acknowledgement of that brokenness, when it is seen,
when it is understood, I feel like that's when we talked
about, you know, the abundant grace, the abundant mercy, the
abundant love of God in this miracle of abundance.
It's our brokenness is the places where the abundance comes
in and flows through and where it where it doesn't work in us.
There is something there about that.
And then there's also something about just, and I'll use the
word vulnerability because I think it's there's a connection
there that when we are vulnerable in our brokenness,
when we, when we share our brokenness with one another,
like God does some amazing things.
Yeah, there's a multiplication factor there too, right?
Like you like if us sharing our vulnerability, what it could
mean to another person. The work of the Spirit that can
be done in us and can be done in others by sharing that again,
you see, I think that kind of miraculous abundance and
multiplication. I'm have an oversharer at times
and so sometimes after like a sermon.
You. So like after a sermon, someone
will will come up to me and they be like Justin, like thank you
so much for just for your like just openness and transparency
to share about like your your vulnerability and be like was I
what like what? There's also something really
beautiful in that because I mean, I think and you and you do
this really well, I can say this as your wife is that you, you
don't lean away from the vulnerability of that to the
point where sometimes it doesn't even feel like you're being
vulnerable. I can be the opposite of that
where and it's not because I don't want to see that
multiplication and it's not because I don't believe that the
spirit is working in my life. I have, I've always been a more
private person for lots of reasons.
And it's and, and yet it's a challenge to me to remember
that. There is still a piece of my
brokenness that it doesn't have to be shameful, it can be shared
with others and and the Spirit can do an amazing work through
that so. Well, I mean, you've had the the
challenge of growing up pastors kid.
I mean, that does do it sometimes is that you just need
a little more privacy. Sometimes it's helpful.
Yeah, we, I mean, my dad was a pastor of a large church.
So it was that that brings with it its own layers of being in
ministry. So like, and so like, I don't
like, I don't think that, that you are like wrong for, for your
approach because I know, I know, yeah, you, you have, you have a
sphere of, of, of friends and people that you can be, be
transparent and vulnerable with and, and, you know, talk through
your, you know, life's challenges and, and do it in
that. Way I would agree.
I mean, I think that the same thing of trying to, you know,
lean into the trust of God is sometimes you do have to just
take those those leaps and and trust that God will do something
with it. You know, we talked about with
giving, we talked about that with other things.
I think you. I think in all of these you have
to do. That yeah, there there's
something there is something pretty profound about when when
we take that leap of faith and and share our story, share our
life, share the the dark, even the dark spaces of our life and
the the broken places in our life, the ways in which God
meets us in that place, the ways that other people are are
encouraged because they're like, I'm not alone.
Yeah, I know and then and then it can extend to actually
encouraging one another in growth in those areas.
Yeah, right. For sure, you know, for someone
who, who is, you know, honest and vulnerable about a
particular sin that they're struggling with or a particular,
um, if they're struggling through just issues in there in
their relationship and their parenting journey in their
marriage, whatever, right? That it's like 8.
We're not alone. We're in this together and it,
and it multiplies the, the, the care and concern and the love
for one another. And then there can actually be
like change. You know, we we can't change if
we're not willing to like face and share with with God and with
one another. OK, so one final thought.
We touch on this in you touched on this a little bit, this idea
of Jesus getting them to gather in groups of about 50, which
were like the biblical components of that.
There's a. There's a numbers components.
To it, 50 is an important number and that's what you see.
You mentioned Jubilee and were some other things you didn't get
into that you? Don't know if people are
interested in this, but like so 10 is 7 and three.
The 2 numbers have complete 3, the complete community 7 is the
number of completion. That's number 10 together and
five or the five books of Moses. Then you have 5 and the 10
together which equals 50. There is a whole like
numerological component to this passage which we did not touch
on which I recommend people researching on their own time,
but I. Love, I love the way you just
rhyme that up. That's.
Great. Yeah, it's all there.
And then like you add another 10, which is like 10 and the
three together gives you the 1000.
It's great. So, OK.
But I'm thinking like just very practically about the number of
kind of in and around 50. Yes, yeah.
And I think about the way in which, you know, you mentioned
that, you know, well, we mentioned that Jesus has them
gathering this, that, that roughly that number of people.
And then also that Moses did that as well.
And I wonder if there's something to that, that when we
think about our ability, our capacity as a, as a people, just
as like, just as people to like have people in our world that we
can care for one another. Like if you're in a Church of
20,000 people, that's that's hard.
It's hard to care for 20,000 people.
You need small groups. You need smaller.
Groups, you need smaller groups, right?
Yeah. And so that's where, you know,
I, I'm just kind of riffing off this idea of like, OK, you know,
even, you know, there are small churches out there that are, you
know, of around 50 that would probably do a really, really
good job of caring for one another in the way that is
described in this passage. You also have groups within
churches, you know, like within court, right?
If we have, you know, say like our, our seniors group, which
could be around 50 or maybe a bit more, right?
You have our, our kids, you know, kids ministry with kids
and parents of probably more than 50.
But it's like it's, it's a it's a reasonable amount that we can
be in community with one another, that we can love each
other, welcome each other, that we can share our lives and our
brokenness and all that kind of stuff.
Like, and I'm just thinking about that number 50.
And just like, yeah, I just want to RIP off a little.
Bit, yeah, I mean, I don't know why.
I mean, I agree the number 50 is significant.
We've already talked about that in the passage.
Why that was the command for Moses to do that in the
wilderness being the number 50. Was it symbolic at that point?
Maybe it was symbolic at that point.
I think there is something there about that being this sounds
weird being a manageable size of needs that you you can kind of
keep a pulse on or that you can realistically meet.
I I think that I mean, Jesus modeled there are smaller
groups. He had his most intimate
friends, then he had the disciples, then he had larger
groups. So we, we've see, you know,
multi tiered size of groups throughout throughout the
scriptures and they all serve their various purposes.
But yeah, I think about this group of 50 seems to be the one
that you can reasonably care or you can gather in community, you
can make sure. I mean, we, you know, in in
Moses and the wilderness, there was a leader appointed over
these smaller groups. And I mean, I don't, I don't
know what happened with the feeding of the multitude, but it
wasn't, you know, there was kind of like a point person who was
getting the food, who was making sure it was distributed amongst
the 50. We don't know.
But I think that that would be a reasonable amount of people to
make sure our did everyone get enough to eat it?
Was there enough for this group? Are we meeting meeting the needs
of people we kind of where they're at or what they need.
And I think it's it is more manageable in a smaller group.
I don't think you could have one person.
I mean, you even think about it in a pastoral structure, like
one pastor of a church, depending on its size cannot
meet the needs of everyone. They need to having starting any
more staff, having volunteer to volunteers to come alongside and
help do that. There is only so much we can do
as people. And I think that, you know, when
you're talking about a group or for a gathering or community 50,
for whatever reason, seems to be that which was manageable to put
a put a leader over. Yeah, no, it just strikes me as
something that, you know, I'm always cautious to say, like,
you know, this is the model, this is an exact model that we
have that we have to follow. But I think that there is some
principles there like, hey, this, this is a, you know, just
practically speaking, this is a manageable size for people to be
able to know one another and to be known to share one another's
strives to have each other's needs met.
Where you're, you know, you're in probably enough.
There's going to be enough differences within the people
that it's not totally homogeneous.
Yeah. You know, like I, I just think
that there's something kind of beautiful about that, that I
walked away thinking about a little.
Bit I don't think 50 was prescriptive it.
Even says roughly. Yeah, it says roughly 50I do
think that again from the numerology, I think there is
significance. I think Luke is trying to play
on numbers, to draw images, but I don't think, yeah, I don't
think the 50 is meant to be prescriptive.
The, the 50 is, I think, meant to be descriptive of an idea
that it is easier to meet the needs of a community when the
community is a manageable size. Yeah, 5000 men plus however many
women and children is not a manageable size to kind of
figure out how everything is going on.
But you know, smaller groups of 50, they become something where
we can be, where we can be truly welcoming, where we can be truly
intentional, where we can ensure, like you said, making
sure we're we're we're knowing people and, and maybe, you know,
you can be vulnerable with people and, and that kind of
size. I think it's, it's the
manageable. I don't have manageable sounds
so. Well, it's it's.
Annoying like. Very practical.
Practical. I mean, it sounds very
practical. But that's OK, that's what we
want. We want, we want to be thinking
through those things. So and so again, we'll leave it
there for now, but I hope that you'll take some time to think
and reflect on these 5 words. Welcome, Give everyone satisfied
and broken and think about the way that that looks like in your
life, in the life of our church, in the life of our world
ultimately, because as we want to see Jesus Kingdom break into
our world, this is the image that Jesus gives us.
And so we hope that you'll think about the ways in which that
looks like for for all of us. So have a great week and we will
see you next time.