1 00:00:00,110 --> 00:00:03,340 Hey, friends, welcome to another episode of the podcast. 2 00:00:03,350 --> 00:00:07,840 And this is a little bit of a different episode today, LA 3 00:00:07,850 --> 00:00:11,940 Thanks for joining me. We have Elena, who is our kids 4 00:00:11,950 --> 00:00:14,640 ministry director, children's ministry director. 5 00:00:14,910 --> 00:00:18,370 I know we we were literally just saying that that that title like 6 00:00:18,380 --> 00:00:21,900 that name changes almost every time we say it. 7 00:00:23,220 --> 00:00:24,330 Angle the kids. Yeah. 8 00:00:24,340 --> 00:00:26,180 Yeah. So Ellen is responsible for like 9 00:00:26,190 --> 00:00:29,780 our children's ministry. And so if your family, if you 10 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:31,760 are a parent, you've probably run into Elena. 11 00:00:31,770 --> 00:00:33,680 But Elena, thanks for joining me today. 12 00:00:33,810 --> 00:00:34,800 It's good to be here. Thanks. 13 00:00:34,810 --> 00:00:40,720 For having me so conversation around Luke 7, we are moving our 14 00:00:40,730 --> 00:00:42,990 way through. We're going to get through Luke 15 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,640 7 quicker than we got through like 6. 16 00:00:44,830 --> 00:00:47,130 So it's a good chunk. Let's not read it today, but we 17 00:00:47,140 --> 00:00:51,760 do have some questions around this interaction. 18 00:00:51,770 --> 00:00:55,710 It's 2 or like 1 1/2 interactions. 19 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,630 So if you need like a refresher, this is John the Baptist sending 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,239 his messengers to Jesus with the main question of of, you know, 21 00:01:04,250 --> 00:01:05,870 essentially Jesus, who are you are? 22 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,770 Are you the Messiah? Are you the one that we've been 23 00:01:07,780 --> 00:01:09,930 waiting for or should we wait for another one? 24 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:14,080 And I know we're going to get into to that and conversation 25 00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:18,420 around that question itself. They come, Jesus gives them an 26 00:01:18,430 --> 00:01:21,960 answer and then they leave. And then Jesus turns and he, he 27 00:01:21,970 --> 00:01:26,050 explains things in sort of greater measure to the crowds 28 00:01:26,060 --> 00:01:28,680 who are still there. So that's why it's kind of like, 29 00:01:28,730 --> 00:01:32,140 you know, 1 1/2 stories. It's, it's really one, one 30 00:01:32,150 --> 00:01:34,640 interaction. But these guys come in from John 31 00:01:34,650 --> 00:01:37,380 and then they leave. And then Jesus teaches, uses it 32 00:01:37,390 --> 00:01:42,180 as a moment to teach the crowds. So again, thanks, this will be 33 00:01:42,190 --> 00:01:44,810 fun. And we've got some questions, so 34 00:01:44,820 --> 00:01:46,160 why don't we start there? Yeah. 35 00:01:46,170 --> 00:01:49,970 So the first question that someone messaged us is around 36 00:01:49,980 --> 00:01:53,590 this idea of, you know, when we meet John, he's introduced to 37 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,680 us, kind of us is really kind of prominent radical figure. 38 00:01:56,690 --> 00:02:00,640 He's out there in the desert way back in Luke 3. 39 00:02:00,690 --> 00:02:04,380 We see kind of the baptism account and there's John the 40 00:02:04,390 --> 00:02:07,160 Baptist on the side of the water, Jesus being baptized. 41 00:02:07,170 --> 00:02:09,820 The voice from heaven is speaking, saying, this is my 42 00:02:09,830 --> 00:02:12,480 beloved son. There's the Holy Spirit. 43 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:16,160 And Matthew describes John can wearing these camel clothing and 44 00:02:16,210 --> 00:02:19,700 eating Lotus like this is a, this is a, you know, a big, he's 45 00:02:19,710 --> 00:02:22,000 a big deal. He's a, a solid prophet 46 00:02:22,070 --> 00:02:25,070 proclaiming God's word. And now we're seeing this 47 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,260 interaction. We're seeing, you know, the 48 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:30,940 messengers are saying, Jesus, are you actually the one? 49 00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:35,400 And we had some people wondering, you know, his John 50 00:02:35,410 --> 00:02:37,960 actually questioning if Jesus is the Messiah. 51 00:02:37,970 --> 00:02:41,080 You know how how do we understand where John is coming 52 00:02:41,090 --> 00:02:43,560 from here? Is he really wrestling with 53 00:02:43,570 --> 00:02:45,470 these doubts? Did he lose faith? 54 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,880 You know what is kind of going on for John right now. 55 00:02:49,190 --> 00:02:51,890 I love this question because I really appreciate questions 56 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:55,880 around faith and doubt. And I'm just trying to find some 57 00:02:55,890 --> 00:02:58,540 of these other verses as well, like with the, you know, the 58 00:02:58,550 --> 00:03:02,080 baptism of Jesus in Luke and the baptism of Jesus in Matthew. 59 00:03:02,090 --> 00:03:04,550 There's a couple differences there that might be worth 60 00:03:04,670 --> 00:03:07,450 talking about. But just at like a high level, I 61 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:15,580 think we often assume that faith and doubt are opposites, that 62 00:03:15,590 --> 00:03:20,310 you can you can have great faith or you have doubt. 63 00:03:20,380 --> 00:03:23,050 Yeah. And, you know, I think in in 64 00:03:23,060 --> 00:03:24,730 part of the church has not helped that. 65 00:03:24,740 --> 00:03:30,090 I think we we have operated under a base assumption that to 66 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:33,010 express doubt means that, oh, you must not have faith. 67 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:37,710 One of my favorite, like Catholic monastic writers. 68 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:43,220 So Thomas Merton said that you can't be a person of faith 69 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:48,430 without being a person of doubt. And I love that, you know, say 70 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,470 what you will about, you know, Catholic brothers and sisters, I 71 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,300 know like theologically we agree on many things and theologically 72 00:03:54,310 --> 00:03:58,150 we disagree on many things. I absolutely love that posture 73 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:04,150 toward faith, that faith by its necessity includes doubt. 74 00:04:04,460 --> 00:04:07,250 So I, I like that as a base approach to faith and doubt. 75 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:12,610 So first, just to try to dispel the idea that to doubt 76 00:04:12,750 --> 00:04:15,940 necessarily means to not have faith, right. 77 00:04:15,950 --> 00:04:18,519 So I would agree with Thomas Merton. 78 00:04:18,529 --> 00:04:21,380 I think we cannot be people of faith and we certainly can't be 79 00:04:21,390 --> 00:04:26,070 people of bold, significant faith without also being people 80 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,180 who doubt and who wonder. And so, you know, I see, I see 81 00:04:30,190 --> 00:04:34,490 Thomas post resurrection, Jesus appears to all the disciples. 82 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:35,880 You know, Thomas isn't there at 1st. 83 00:04:35,890 --> 00:04:39,140 And then Thomas, you know, he, he gets kind of brought into the 84 00:04:39,290 --> 00:04:41,270 to the story and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 85 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:44,050 I'm not going to, I'm not gonna believe it until I put my hands 86 00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:50,930 in the wounds and like see Jesus with my eyes and feel his body 87 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:53,840 with my hands. I will not like I'm not going to 88 00:04:53,850 --> 00:04:57,790 believe. And and and I go, you know, 89 00:04:57,850 --> 00:05:00,870 we've forever, we've called this dude doubting Thomas. 90 00:05:01,380 --> 00:05:03,830 And I go like perfectly reasonable Thomas. 91 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,650 And I can't remember where I first heard that. 92 00:05:05,660 --> 00:05:07,950 Like I didn't come up with it, but this dude is perfectly 93 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,990 reasonable given the circumstances, given what all 94 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,240 has happened. Like dead men don't normally 95 00:05:13,250 --> 00:05:16,420 come back to life. And so perfectly reasonable 96 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:20,800 approach is like, I need to be able to express these doubts in 97 00:05:20,810 --> 00:05:28,820 order to reach a place of faith. And what I love in the church is 98 00:05:28,890 --> 00:05:31,930 when we do that well and allow people to ask questions and 99 00:05:31,940 --> 00:05:36,450 voice doubts and express concern and wrestle out their faith. 100 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:40,190 Like that's what's happening. They're wrestling out faith less 101 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,630 so. You know, I think we can 102 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,270 historically have a tendency in the church, too, be scared of 103 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:50,990 people's doubt and be scared of questions and people wrestling 104 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,620 out in real time in front of us. Yeah, their faith, because it, 105 00:05:55,690 --> 00:05:59,540 it kind of forces me. Like if you're wrestling your 106 00:05:59,550 --> 00:06:03,440 faith out and if you're expressing doubt, then that like 107 00:06:03,450 --> 00:06:07,630 pushes or impinges on my faith. Like, what does that like, do I 108 00:06:07,690 --> 00:06:09,560 know what I believe? Like, do I have the same 109 00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:11,620 questions? I thought I had a strong fit. 110 00:06:11,630 --> 00:06:13,880 Like it kind of pushes us inside. 111 00:06:15,380 --> 00:06:19,680 So we, you know, I think just need to get over that challenge 112 00:06:19,690 --> 00:06:23,250 and struggle and say, hey, in order to be a good a person of 113 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:26,650 good faith, like great faith, bold faith, in order to have 114 00:06:26,660 --> 00:06:31,330 faith, you need to be a person who doubts and who wrestles. 115 00:06:31,340 --> 00:06:34,350 So I think John the Baptist is doubting Jesus. 116 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,630 I do think so. And I didn't, I don't know that 117 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,130 I said that in that exact language yesterday for us 118 00:06:41,140 --> 00:06:42,890 yesterday. We're recording this on Monday. 119 00:06:44,230 --> 00:06:49,110 What I said in my sermon is that John is questioning whether 120 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,760 Jesus is the Messiah because Jesus hasn't lived up to his, 121 00:06:53,770 --> 00:06:57,340 John's expectations of what that Messiah would be and look like 122 00:06:57,350 --> 00:07:01,120 and do. So I do think John has doubt. 123 00:07:01,230 --> 00:07:09,040 I think he doesn't know who Jesus is to the extent that 124 00:07:09,050 --> 00:07:14,480 Jesus isn't fulfilling what John thought would be the true right 125 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:17,800 picture of the Messiah. So he is wondering, He is 126 00:07:17,810 --> 00:07:21,400 expressing concern and questioning whether he has 127 00:07:21,510 --> 00:07:24,000 chosen to trust the wrong person. 128 00:07:25,170 --> 00:07:30,460 And I think that, you know, again, like faith as a term 129 00:07:30,510 --> 00:07:33,420 people can struggle with, right? Like, what does it actually mean 130 00:07:33,430 --> 00:07:36,920 to have faith at the end of the day? 131 00:07:36,930 --> 00:07:40,580 Like, faith is trust, yeah. And it's trust that Jesus is who 132 00:07:40,590 --> 00:07:41,670 he says he is. Yeah. 133 00:07:42,690 --> 00:07:48,260 And so I think that John is starting to wonder whether he's 134 00:07:48,270 --> 00:07:49,640 put his trust in the wrong person. 135 00:07:49,690 --> 00:07:52,260 Yeah. Like is Jesus actually the 136 00:07:52,270 --> 00:07:54,180 Messiah? So yes, I think John is 137 00:07:54,190 --> 00:07:58,200 expressing doubt. Um, and I don't think that that 138 00:07:58,210 --> 00:08:04,920 doubt needs to be like explained away or, you know, like it At 139 00:08:04,930 --> 00:08:07,160 the same time, it doesn't, I don't think need to cause 140 00:08:07,170 --> 00:08:11,300 massive like crisis of, of faith for us. 141 00:08:11,310 --> 00:08:16,270 I think it ought to encourage us that even John, who Jesus in the 142 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:21,070 next section calls the greatest, like, you know, yeah, greatest 143 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:26,590 prophet. He even he that John has doubt 144 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,050 and questions and wonders and Jesus is here for it. 145 00:08:30,060 --> 00:08:33,450 He's like, bring it on. I got I He doesn't. 146 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:36,490 He doesn't rebuke John. Like he doesn't say you have 147 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:38,130 little faith. He says that elsewhere, but 148 00:08:38,140 --> 00:08:40,690 like, you know, he doesn't say you have little faith. 149 00:08:40,700 --> 00:08:42,650 Like, how could you? You're my cousin. 150 00:08:42,659 --> 00:08:44,530 Like, haven't you seen all these things? 151 00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:50,140 Like, don't you remember when he, he has this very calm, non 152 00:08:50,150 --> 00:08:54,880 anxious watch what I do and make a decision for yourself? 153 00:08:54,890 --> 00:08:59,300 He he he invites John, I think by way of his messengers into 154 00:08:59,310 --> 00:09:01,560 the fullness of his doubt. Yeah. 155 00:09:01,610 --> 00:09:03,860 Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that kind 156 00:09:03,870 --> 00:09:06,320 of stand out to me is an encouragement when I read this 157 00:09:06,330 --> 00:09:09,460 is also just, you know, the humanity of John. 158 00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:13,060 Like he yes, I think especially maybe with, you know, with that 159 00:09:13,070 --> 00:09:15,640 childhood image. You see these pictures, you 160 00:09:15,650 --> 00:09:18,800 know, if the again, this man in the desert with the scraggly 161 00:09:18,810 --> 00:09:21,920 clothes and, you know, he seems so kind of almost otherworldly. 162 00:09:21,930 --> 00:09:24,580 I think we have a lot sometimes we have a lot of those ideas 163 00:09:24,590 --> 00:09:26,640 around the prophets in the Old Testament, you know, these 164 00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:28,590 mighty men who are almost in their own class. 165 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,780 But you know, he's you see him just his humanity he is going to 166 00:09:32,790 --> 00:09:35,980 Jesus with. Yeah, he's with these doubts and 167 00:09:35,990 --> 00:09:38,600 even him having seen everything he's seen and done everything 168 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:41,800 he's done, He's still has those those emotions and those 169 00:09:41,810 --> 00:09:45,420 feelings and those questions. So, yeah, just point to your 170 00:09:45,430 --> 00:09:48,450 point that, you know, having those doubts in the 1st place 171 00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:51,730 doesn't mean that, you know, you're, you're calling or your, 172 00:09:52,070 --> 00:09:55,950 your faith or your faith journey has not been been amazing or 173 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,120 true or yeah, it doesn't. Those two things can exist in 174 00:10:00,130 --> 00:10:02,730 the same person in the same time of life. 175 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,790 But then also where he goes with that. 176 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,470 So that's kind of the significant thing is he doesn't 177 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:10,430 just wrestle that out by himself in his prison cell. 178 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,490 He takes his initiative to send his messengers and he takes 179 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:18,270 those doubts to Jesus and he he questions him and he brings it 180 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,560 to him. And then the next part, what you 181 00:10:20,570 --> 00:10:23,240 were saying is kind of that Jesus's response to him. 182 00:10:23,250 --> 00:10:26,360 So I was hoping we could talk a little bit more about how Jesus 183 00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:29,880 then addresses the questions and how does he kind of interact 184 00:10:29,890 --> 00:10:32,660 with John in that moment with doubt and what could we maybe 185 00:10:32,670 --> 00:10:35,900 learn about that as we we address the doubts of people who 186 00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:38,220 come to us? Yeah, OK. 187 00:10:38,230 --> 00:10:40,360 So not our even our own doubt necessarily. 188 00:10:40,370 --> 00:10:44,440 So yes, our own doubt, but also other people who are expressing 189 00:10:44,450 --> 00:10:47,260 doubt. So I love that angle on the 190 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:52,680 question because like, I think we can just, we have a tendency 191 00:10:52,690 --> 00:10:55,860 to to personalize things and make it like about about me and 192 00:10:55,870 --> 00:10:58,950 my doubt and my experience and, and you know how Jesus shows up 193 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,640 for me, which is great and good and right. 194 00:11:00,650 --> 00:11:02,580 Like it's a good place to be and to start. 195 00:11:02,590 --> 00:11:04,800 And if you need to sit there, wonderful. 196 00:11:06,570 --> 00:11:13,900 But yeah, again, I think Jesus gives us this really calm and I 197 00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:17,370 use this this language on purpose, like non anxious 198 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:22,660 response to John's doubt. He he. 199 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,880 So if you look at the the story like as the narrative unfolds 200 00:11:30,430 --> 00:11:34,150 and 20 they show up. So the men had come to him. 201 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,790 They said, John the Baptist has sent us to you saying, are you 202 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,710 the one who is to come or shall we look for another? 203 00:11:41,020 --> 00:11:45,830 And then in 21 in that hour, he healed many people of diseases 204 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,670 and plagues and evil spirits and on many who were blind, he 205 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:53,250 bestowed sight and he answered them. 206 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,870 Go and tell John what you have seen and heard. 207 00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:59,390 And then he goes into that line. The blind receive their site, 208 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,640 the lame walk, leopards cleanse the deaf here, the dead are 209 00:12:02,650 --> 00:12:05,220 raised up, the poor have good news preached to them. 210 00:12:05,550 --> 00:12:14,310 And so two things are happening. One Jesus begins by, like I've 211 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,730 said, not rebuking John, not immediately correcting him. 212 00:12:18,740 --> 00:12:22,830 He doesn't chastise John for having doubt. 213 00:12:23,580 --> 00:12:29,700 Instead, what he invites the messengers into is just more of 214 00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:34,050 witnessing who Jesus is like he he instead of distancing himself 215 00:12:34,060 --> 00:12:38,670 from from them in a way that you know, he could just simply 216 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:41,880 answer, yes, I am. Go back and tell John I'm the 217 00:12:41,890 --> 00:12:43,890 one, like, put your head on straight. 218 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,730 I like, we've been over this a couple of times. 219 00:12:45,740 --> 00:12:49,260 You've seen the thing, which in my mind was like, distancing. 220 00:12:49,330 --> 00:12:53,980 Yeah, Jesus distancing himself from the question, which he 221 00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:55,960 never does. Like Jesus doesn't distance 222 00:12:55,970 --> 00:13:01,780 himself from things that other people, onlookers would perceive 223 00:13:01,790 --> 00:13:05,260 as, like, incorrect or socially taboo. 224 00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:07,500 So we're going to see that at the end of seven. 225 00:13:07,510 --> 00:13:11,120 So this coming Sunday, without spoiling, you know, the whole 226 00:13:11,130 --> 00:13:15,200 sermon, we get this really awkward social interaction 227 00:13:15,210 --> 00:13:19,920 between Jesus, a woman who's not named and a Pharisee. 228 00:13:20,810 --> 00:13:24,760 And it's, you know, this, this woman comes in, Jesus is eating 229 00:13:24,770 --> 00:13:29,740 with the Pharisee and the woman anoints Jesus feet or washes, 230 00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:33,610 washes his feet with her tears and hair and then anoints him. 231 00:13:34,330 --> 00:13:40,440 And it, it's this, like everybody from the outside, and 232 00:13:40,450 --> 00:13:42,360 we're going to get into this on Sunday, Everybody from the 233 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:46,300 outside would be looking at this going like what is happening and 234 00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:48,130 trying to like, it's one of those awkward situations where 235 00:13:48,140 --> 00:13:51,290 you like, you're so everything is so awkward that you're just 236 00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:54,670 like, I want to crawl into a hole and just, you know, not 237 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:58,420 have this happen. And, and, and so when human 238 00:13:58,430 --> 00:14:02,230 inclination is to back up and kind of distance ourselves from 239 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,100 what's happening. And Jesus is always one who 240 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:06,500 leans in. So I see that happening here. 241 00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:10,480 For starters, he, he doesn't rebuke, he doesn't challenge, he 242 00:14:10,490 --> 00:14:13,560 doesn't correct, he leans in, he embraces them. 243 00:14:13,570 --> 00:14:18,640 He actually invites them deeper into their doubt by saying, no 244 00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:21,390 watch, like, look at what I'm doing. 245 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,000 Like he he's not just saying, Oh, I'll prove it to you and 246 00:14:25,010 --> 00:14:28,210 that he actually invites them deeper into their out or into 247 00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:33,370 John's doubt spoken, you know, by these messengers by by 248 00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:38,490 continuing to do the thing. So he heals and, uh, you know, 249 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:42,640 like that again, you kind of wonder, like amazing moment, but 250 00:14:42,650 --> 00:14:44,320 he continues just to live out the Kingdom. 251 00:14:44,380 --> 00:14:46,060 Yeah. He's like, this is who I am. 252 00:14:46,070 --> 00:14:48,530 This is who I am. You know how I've been sent to 253 00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:51,480 be. And I'm gonna do that. 254 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,210 I'm going to invite you into it so that you can see it. 255 00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:57,750 And he almost like he's like, you know, make up your own mind, 256 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,210 like you make up your mind on this. 257 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:04,780 But I'm not going to change who I am or how I am, like how I'm 258 00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:09,190 acting just simply to make, to give you an easy answer. 259 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,510 So invite some further into their doubt. 260 00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:15,020 They get to witness it happening and then make up their own 261 00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:16,980 minds. So he invites them into that 262 00:15:16,990 --> 00:15:20,200 whole journey. Then he says finally, right? 263 00:15:20,250 --> 00:15:23,080 Go and tell John what you've seen and what you've heard. 264 00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:28,060 And here's where he turns. He flips to not quoting verbatim 265 00:15:28,070 --> 00:15:32,460 Scripture, yeah, but really pulling that thread from Isaiah 266 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:38,830 61 forward where the Messiah spoken of as one who does heal 267 00:15:38,890 --> 00:15:43,500 and bring restoration and year of Jubilee language. 268 00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:47,370 So again, this is Jesus opening that scroll in the synagogue at 269 00:15:47,380 --> 00:15:50,210 the beginning of Luke where he reads from it and he says, I am 270 00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:53,960 this one who was spoken about and the blind are going to see 271 00:15:53,970 --> 00:15:56,050 in the lamb are going to walk and the dead are going to be 272 00:15:56,060 --> 00:16:00,280 raised. And so he's really pulling that 273 00:16:00,290 --> 00:16:03,330 thread forward from earlier in Luke where he's spoken those 274 00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:05,630 words and ultimately from Isaiah 61. 275 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:11,610 So one quick comment on that. I think Jesus actually models in 276 00:16:11,620 --> 00:16:16,920 a really simple way. Go ahead again. 277 00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:20,770 He could have said I am the Messiah, I am the one. 278 00:16:21,810 --> 00:16:25,500 But he's helping John get there. He's helping John connect the 279 00:16:25,510 --> 00:16:26,440 dots. Yeah. 280 00:16:26,610 --> 00:16:30,800 And so he doesn't make it easy on John, but he doesn't make it 281 00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:33,160 overly hard either. So there's no guilt or shame. 282 00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:36,620 Yeah, but he also doesn't give the simple, easy answer, like, 283 00:16:36,630 --> 00:16:38,620 yes, get over it. Away we go. 284 00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:42,960 So for us, how can we help other people who are expressing doubt 285 00:16:42,970 --> 00:16:47,840 #1 like, come on, Like, no guilt, no shame in it with you. 286 00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:52,900 And love that you're having these questions and thoughts and 287 00:16:52,910 --> 00:16:55,550 wondering out loud about this. So thanks. 288 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,660 So I want people in our congregation. 289 00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:59,920 And I'm sure you see this, like, working with parents, right? 290 00:16:59,930 --> 00:17:05,240 Like, you're like, your kids are going to ask you crazy questions 291 00:17:05,339 --> 00:17:08,619 about the Bible. And so one of the best things we 292 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:12,609 can do and our teams can do is help parents have those 293 00:17:12,619 --> 00:17:15,329 conversations well with their kids when it happens. 294 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:18,210 So yeah, like, no guilt, no shame. 295 00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,369 We're in it with you. Love that you're having these 296 00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:23,210 thoughts and asking these questions and wondering out 297 00:17:23,220 --> 00:17:25,710 loud. Thanks for sharing it with me. 298 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,550 All of those things that you would want to receive, right? 299 00:17:29,380 --> 00:17:33,040 So that's I think our posture toward people needs to be open 300 00:17:33,890 --> 00:17:39,480 and as Jesus models lean in and invite people further into it, 301 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,740 sit with it. And then I think the best thing 302 00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:47,120 we can do because like I, you know, I'm not going to turn 303 00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:49,800 around and be like, well, watch these people who are being 304 00:17:49,810 --> 00:17:52,500 healed and like blind are like, we don't, you know, it's, it's 305 00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:54,840 not the same turn that Jesus can make. 306 00:17:54,890 --> 00:18:01,050 But I think we can encourage people by inviting them into our 307 00:18:01,060 --> 00:18:09,350 story and by reminding them how we together can and have seen 308 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,570 God work so further into doubt. Don't be afraid of it. 309 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:21,050 Name it like Lean In. And then ultimately I think we 310 00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:28,510 want to be people who can sit with our doubt in front of Jesus 311 00:18:28,940 --> 00:18:33,530 and as a community, remind one another of where we've seen God 312 00:18:33,540 --> 00:18:35,410 work. So like, I walked in this 313 00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:37,050 morning. Yeah, it was this morning. 314 00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:39,530 And so, like, I get here fairly early. 315 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,340 Like not, you know, and that's just by virtue of like, I wanna 316 00:18:44,350 --> 00:18:46,960 spend time with my kids. It's not because I'm like, oh 317 00:18:46,970 --> 00:18:49,850 great, I'm gonna be the first tier in the last to leave. 318 00:18:49,860 --> 00:18:52,320 No, it's like I wanna be, I wanna be at home when my kids 319 00:18:52,330 --> 00:18:57,300 are home from school. So, you know, early two of our 320 00:18:57,310 --> 00:18:59,810 scene, you know, two guys, two guys are here for the 321 00:18:59,820 --> 00:19:01,800 maintenance team. Like, and I, I love it. 322 00:19:01,810 --> 00:19:05,640 Both of them are retired and I I say senior and I don't want to 323 00:19:05,650 --> 00:19:08,120 offend anybody, but like these are guys who have been here 324 00:19:08,130 --> 00:19:11,040 like, you know, basically since the beginning of this church 325 00:19:11,050 --> 00:19:12,880 being planted. They're amazing, nothing can 326 00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:14,980 stop them. I absolutely love. 327 00:19:14,990 --> 00:19:17,090 It's like they're hanging across on the outside of our building 328 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:18,540 today, which is going to look great. 329 00:19:18,550 --> 00:19:22,940 And so I'm wandering in. It's like still like, OK, 330 00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:24,980 coffee. And what do I need to do today? 331 00:19:25,050 --> 00:19:26,780 And they're telling me the story. 332 00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:30,260 Have you heard the story of, you know, when we did this and 333 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:33,980 needed this amount of money and prayed and like, it was like, 334 00:19:34,110 --> 00:19:36,810 you know, I think the amount of money that needed to be raised 335 00:19:36,820 --> 00:19:44,020 was $70,000 and in in like on the day that they tallied it was 336 00:19:44,030 --> 00:19:46,650 like 70,000 and $10. Yeah. 337 00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:49,700 So it's just like, you know, really practical. 338 00:19:49,830 --> 00:19:52,960 But like these dudes are like they're fired up about this 339 00:19:52,970 --> 00:20:00,720 story from I don't 20 years ago maybe where like God moved in 340 00:20:00,730 --> 00:20:04,220 our community and provided exactly what we needed. 341 00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:07,140 Like not much more, but certainly not any less. 342 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:09,600 And so I said to them, I was like we. 343 00:20:09,670 --> 00:20:12,140 Like these are the stories we need to hold on to and continue 344 00:20:12,150 --> 00:20:15,380 to pass down, even, like, from our generation to generation. 345 00:20:15,390 --> 00:20:17,650 Yeah. Because it reminds us of how God 346 00:20:17,660 --> 00:20:19,270 has shown up. Yeah. 347 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,450 And so, you know, it's not like your job. 348 00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:28,490 My job isn't to convince somebody to not experience 349 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:30,100 doubt. You're not going to be able to 350 00:20:30,110 --> 00:20:36,200 fix someone's doubt, but we can remind people, I think, of the 351 00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:38,650 goodness of God and where we've seen it at work. 352 00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:41,790 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, as we were going 353 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,430 through that through the end of community Bible study together 354 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,630 in Luke 6. And that passage just ends with 355 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,060 that, that kind of discussion on fruit, right? 356 00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:54,070 Like a tree and its fruit. You know, no good tree bears bad 357 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,930 fruit, nor does the bad, you know, each tree is recognized by 358 00:20:56,940 --> 00:20:58,390 its fruit to that whole discussion. 359 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,470 And yeah, that's also just, you know, we remind each other of 360 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,670 the fruit like we in our community here in our church, 361 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,320 you know, sometimes. Yeah, it's just we don't see it 362 00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:10,480 because, you know, maybe John the Baptist, like he was 363 00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:13,870 thinking of maybe these prophecies of like the the 364 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,770 Kingdom being restored and, you know, maybe he was focusing on 365 00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:22,170 that one aspect. But Jesus said, no, remember 366 00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:25,370 this, this is here too. And this is happening right now. 367 00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:27,590 Like if you can see it, it's here. 368 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,910 And sometimes maybe we're, we're just focusing in on the one area 369 00:21:31,980 --> 00:21:35,210 and there's all this other fruit happening and we just need to 370 00:21:35,220 --> 00:21:38,250 remind each other and point it out to each other and come 371 00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:40,280 alongside. Oh, hey, yeah, there's, there's 372 00:21:40,350 --> 00:21:43,450 trickier, there's good things. And I think that's always, yeah, 373 00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:46,210 that's encouraging to me too, is just being around the community 374 00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:49,670 and hearing these stories of God showing up in these amazing 375 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,710 ways. And, you know, it's not 376 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,030 necessarily a quick fix for doubt, but it's it's part of as 377 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,190 we walk alongside each other and we encourage each other with 378 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,160 that. Yeah. 379 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:00,550 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 380 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:06,680 So I love that perspective on it because it does like I think one 381 00:22:06,690 --> 00:22:09,350 of the things we want to help people enter into their doubt, 382 00:22:09,490 --> 00:22:14,800 but like we also don't want to become so myopic that like 383 00:22:14,810 --> 00:22:17,520 that's the only thing that we're focusing on. 384 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,180 And this is like this one thing. And I think that's what John 385 00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:22,500 does. Because if you read all of 386 00:22:22,550 --> 00:22:25,240 Isaiah 61. So the thing that the thing for 387 00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:29,340 me is I pictured John in prison. I think I said this yesterday, 388 00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:33,000 like so prison for John is very likely in and around the Dead 389 00:22:33,010 --> 00:22:37,910 Sea. So very dry arid, um, you know, 390 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,630 uncomfortable place to be in a prison. 391 00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:45,030 And you know, so like I picture him going like, when am I gonna 392 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,090 get busted out of here? Like when, when is it my turn? 393 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,410 Because in, in Isaiah 61, if you read it, it literally says like 394 00:22:53,420 --> 00:22:58,910 liberty to the captives, right? So in Isaiah 6/1, it talks about 395 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,600 prisoners being set free very literally. 396 00:23:01,610 --> 00:23:05,070 And I think John is like, he's like, that's the line for me. 397 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,580 When's it going to come? And what Jesus, it's just like, 398 00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:11,570 it's just like zoom out the lens a little bit and and remind 399 00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:14,410 ourselves of all of the entirety of life within the Kingdom. 400 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,290 And maybe this isn't literally John. 401 00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:20,040 You're gonna be released from prison because ultimately that's 402 00:23:20,050 --> 00:23:23,950 not what happens for John. But in the big picture, grand 403 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,940 scheme of things, the Kingdom is unfolding in ways that John 404 00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:29,910 doesn't really know. Like, I don't know, I don't be 405 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,530 too hard on John, but like, in very, you know, in very real 406 00:23:34,540 --> 00:23:37,190 ways that I think are still unfolding in front of him. 407 00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:40,590 He's figuring out in real time that the Kingdom isn't what he 408 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:41,630 expected. Yeah. 409 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,600 And in many ways is a whole lot bigger. 410 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:45,840 But in other ways, he's actually, he's going to be let 411 00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:48,660 down because he's he's going to end up dying in prison. 412 00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:51,420 And he's got to wrestle that out in real time. 413 00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:55,300 Like, what does this actually mean beyond immediately being 414 00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:58,960 released? So help people zoom out, I think 415 00:23:58,970 --> 00:24:01,980 is a helpful thing. Don't wipe out the doubt. 416 00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:05,200 But just like, let's just broaden our perspective a bit. 417 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:06,940 That's good. Alright. 418 00:24:07,610 --> 00:24:10,920 The last thing we we kind of wanted to touch on briefly and I 419 00:24:10,930 --> 00:24:13,030 definitely had this question when I was listening to the 420 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,040 passage being read. I'm sure other people had as 421 00:24:15,050 --> 00:24:18,440 well. After John, John's, you know, 422 00:24:18,450 --> 00:24:20,700 Jesus, sorry, tells the messengers, you know, go and 423 00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:23,340 tell John. He then kind of turns around and 424 00:24:23,770 --> 00:24:27,260 he he kind of praises John to the people and he has this 425 00:24:27,270 --> 00:24:29,760 little bit where he say, he says, what did you go out in the 426 00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:31,950 wilderness to see a Reed swayed by the wind? 427 00:24:32,010 --> 00:24:33,680 If not, what did you go out to see? 428 00:24:33,690 --> 00:24:36,510 A man dressed in fine clothes? And then he says, you know, I 429 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,230 tell you he's more than a prophet, the one about whom it 430 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,960 is written, I will send my messenger ahead of you who will 431 00:24:41,970 --> 00:24:44,610 prepare your way before you. And then there's this line at 432 00:24:44,620 --> 00:24:47,180 the end there. He says, I tell you, among those 433 00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:50,790 born of women, there is no one greater than John, yet the one 434 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,180 who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he. 435 00:24:54,860 --> 00:24:56,110 Yeah. So we just kind of had a 436 00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:00,500 question around what does this mean that John, you know, among 437 00:25:00,510 --> 00:25:04,090 those born women, there is none greater than John, yet the least 438 00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:05,950 in the Kingdom is greater than he. 439 00:25:06,020 --> 00:25:08,350 That seems like a little bit of a confusing thing to wrap our 440 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:10,630 heads, so maybe you can help us kind of tease that out a bit. 441 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,850 Yeah, for sure. So I pictured Jesus. 442 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,830 So Jesus talking in other instances about being born 443 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:25,450 again, like you've been born of flesh, born of of body, born of 444 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,930 here. It says like born of women, 445 00:25:28,020 --> 00:25:34,130 women. So, you know, obviously he's 446 00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:37,500 talking about like physical, real, physical birth. 447 00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:40,600 But elsewhere where he talks about now you need to be born of 448 00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:44,320 spirit. And I think that's a little bit 449 00:25:44,650 --> 00:25:46,780 of the distinction that we're seeing here. 450 00:25:46,830 --> 00:25:53,080 So Jesus is saying, yeah, there there are, there are two ways of 451 00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:56,200 being born. You can be born of flesh. 452 00:25:56,210 --> 00:25:58,800 Like everybody has this first birth where you are born into 453 00:25:58,810 --> 00:26:01,990 the world, but you need to be born of spirit. 454 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,970 Do you need to be born again? You need to be renewed in that 455 00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:10,400 way of like God's Spirit getting ahold of you and recreating much 456 00:26:10,410 --> 00:26:14,450 of your life. And so I think here what he's 457 00:26:14,460 --> 00:26:20,270 saying is if, if life outside the Kingdom and life inside the 458 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,850 Kingdom can be talked about in the kind of like birth language, 459 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,400 born of flesh, born of spirit, then, uh, we can also look at 460 00:26:29,410 --> 00:26:35,970 it, um, maybe as like perspective. 461 00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:45,800 So what I mean by that is, is among people, you can look at 462 00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:51,040 John and say, no, no one is greater right? 463 00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:56,550 Like here's the So what Jesus doesn't want to have happen, I 464 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,400 think is for people to go away and be like, oh, John's messed 465 00:27:00,410 --> 00:27:01,900 up. He's missed the boat. 466 00:27:01,910 --> 00:27:04,010 John's got doubt. Like maybe John's wrong. 467 00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:08,300 We shouldn't listen to John. And if John's wrong, then maybe 468 00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:10,780 is Jesus wrong too? Like if John was wrong about the 469 00:27:10,790 --> 00:27:13,340 about Jesus, then what does it say about Jesus? 470 00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:14,960 Who, who is he really? Like? 471 00:27:15,310 --> 00:27:18,680 Maybe, maybe Jesus is wrong. Like so I think Jesus actually 472 00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:24,210 wants to reaffirm the authority with which John is is moving so 473 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:25,540 far. But from that like outside 474 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:31,880 perspective, people would see John in that light as like the 475 00:27:31,890 --> 00:27:34,600 greatest prophet who's lived to this date. 476 00:27:35,230 --> 00:27:39,590 So for the people of Israel, they have these stories, these 477 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,380 collective narratives. They, they remember, they say 478 00:27:42,390 --> 00:27:44,460 they remember. But like collectively as a 479 00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:48,480 people, they remember like Jeremiah and Isaiah and they 480 00:27:48,490 --> 00:27:52,180 remember the prophets who led their people through, you know, 481 00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:57,060 a whole lot of turmoil and up and down and reconciliation with 482 00:27:57,070 --> 00:27:59,480 God, with others. Like there's a lot that the 483 00:27:59,490 --> 00:28:03,640 prophets so and and what Jesus is saying is listen like none 484 00:28:03,650 --> 00:28:07,940 greater than John like this this he has authority. 485 00:28:08,010 --> 00:28:11,120 This is the one you know whom it? 486 00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:12,980 Was like spoke about him. Right. 487 00:28:13,030 --> 00:28:15,340 You know this. He has prophesied about himself, 488 00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:16,500 John. Yeah. 489 00:28:16,580 --> 00:28:20,260 And so he says, I tell you, like, among those born of women, 490 00:28:20,270 --> 00:28:25,360 none is greater than John, so you should still listen to him. 491 00:28:25,770 --> 00:28:30,240 But then he flips it and he says, hey, And you know what's 492 00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:35,600 even better than that? Anyone inside the Kingdom is 493 00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:40,700 greater in a spiritual reality sense than John. 494 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,990 So it's not that. I don't think he's saying like 495 00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:49,370 John is now lesser somehow and excluded. 496 00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:50,730 Like I don't. I certainly don't think he's 497 00:28:50,740 --> 00:28:54,740 saying that John is excluded. What he is saying is that 498 00:28:54,830 --> 00:28:59,270 there's like there's a shift and John is functionally the last 499 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,330 prophet before Jesus. Jesus becomes the prophet. 500 00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:06,370 So like the office, you know, threefold office that Jesus 501 00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:11,490 holds prophet, priest and king. And those are the his his role 502 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:15,530 title function like that. You know how he he is inside the 503 00:29:15,540 --> 00:29:17,780 Kingdom is one who acts as profit, one who acts as priest 1 504 00:29:17,790 --> 00:29:21,880 to access king. So we don't need and just, and I 505 00:29:21,890 --> 00:29:25,320 had some of this conversation in an earlier episode of the 506 00:29:25,330 --> 00:29:26,660 podcast. So there's still the gifts of 507 00:29:26,670 --> 00:29:32,420 prophecy that continue gifting through the Spirit of Prophecy 508 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,080 continues to this day. Well, you know, actually that's 509 00:29:35,090 --> 00:29:37,210 argued, but I would say it continues. 510 00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:45,780 But need for profit in this way, knowledge is no longer needed, 511 00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:49,260 no longer necessary. So Jesus steps in ultimately 512 00:29:49,270 --> 00:29:52,200 into that, that ultimate role of, of profit. 513 00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:57,600 But I think really what what Jesus is trying to say is that 514 00:29:57,690 --> 00:30:03,000 there is a shift that happens between John and Jesus and that 515 00:30:03,010 --> 00:30:07,700 is the Kingdom has now come and life inside the Kingdom is 516 00:30:07,710 --> 00:30:10,180 possible. And it's almost like you're 517 00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:13,900 saying not just for the great prophets, but for everyone, 518 00:30:13,910 --> 00:30:19,380 anyone and anyone who who has the spirit of God, who lives 519 00:30:19,390 --> 00:30:24,660 life inside the Kingdom. He says even the one that you 520 00:30:24,790 --> 00:30:27,280 would consider the least of these. 521 00:30:27,330 --> 00:30:31,240 Yeah, I don't necessarily even think Jesus is saying like 522 00:30:31,550 --> 00:30:34,350 there's gonna be this full on hierarchy in the Kingdom of 523 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,010 heaven and like the one who just scrapes in like that's not what 524 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:40,700 he's saying. I think what he's saying is you 525 00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:43,260 all see John as a great prophet and you should. 526 00:30:43,310 --> 00:30:46,060 Yes. Even if you all who see John as 527 00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:50,430 a great prophet consider someone to be the absolute last least in 528 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,100 the Kingdom of heaven, even that person is greater than John 529 00:30:54,150 --> 00:30:57,160 because of the gift and the blessing and the flourishing of 530 00:30:57,170 --> 00:30:59,160 life that happens inside the Kingdom because of the Spirit. 531 00:30:59,170 --> 00:31:02,000 So he's not saying John's excluded. 532 00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:04,240 He's not saying that they're going to be like these little 533 00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:06,690 itty bitty people inside the Kingdom and like some people who 534 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,620 are great and some people who just scrape in. 535 00:31:08,770 --> 00:31:11,690 But what he's saying is, even for those of us who would 536 00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:15,470 consider someone the least of these inside the Kingdom, even 537 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,230 that person is greater than John because of the gift of what it 538 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,080 means to be inside the. Kingdom, yeah, I liked how one 539 00:31:23,090 --> 00:31:26,280 commentator kind of described it as he's saying the state of 540 00:31:26,290 --> 00:31:29,100 blessedness in the in the Kingdom. 541 00:31:29,230 --> 00:31:31,430 And, you know, we were just talking in community, I will 542 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,080 study on the sermon on the plane. 543 00:31:33,090 --> 00:31:36,280 It starts off with the the blessed statements. 544 00:31:36,410 --> 00:31:38,860 And we were talking about how God, how Jesus is kind of 545 00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:42,260 shaping these Kingdom, people, Kingdom allowing people and what 546 00:31:42,270 --> 00:31:45,220 it means, what it looks like to live in God's Kingdom and the 547 00:31:45,230 --> 00:31:47,880 blessing that comes with that. And again, just kind of that 548 00:31:47,890 --> 00:31:50,780 reminder of, you know, this is the Kingdom that has been that 549 00:31:50,790 --> 00:31:54,280 Jesus has come to usher in and everything changes now. 550 00:31:54,290 --> 00:31:58,060 Like we are called to be part of this Kingdom and experience this 551 00:31:58,070 --> 00:32:03,160 blessedness and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 552 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:06,420 And it I got it. I think it's a great, it's a 553 00:32:06,430 --> 00:32:11,280 great promise. And there is a great in, in my 554 00:32:11,370 --> 00:32:14,800 in my mind and experience of it. Like there's a great hope in, in 555 00:32:14,810 --> 00:32:17,160 these sayings. I think that the thing that can 556 00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:20,120 creep in is like that, like, Oh well, I wonder who's going to be 557 00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:23,000 the least right. And no, no, that's not what he's 558 00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:24,440 saying. We missed the point. 559 00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:28,420 Like to say that to focus on the least is to miss the point of 560 00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:30,520 Jesus saying is greater than he, right. 561 00:32:30,530 --> 00:32:31,960 Which is it? Like what you're pointing us 562 00:32:31,970 --> 00:32:34,860 toward is that the blessing is so much greater. 563 00:32:34,930 --> 00:32:39,070 Yeah, than we could hope for, imagine or dream up ourselves. 564 00:32:40,930 --> 00:32:42,620 Yeah. Wonderful. 565 00:32:42,630 --> 00:32:45,820 Any other questions that we think we should cover? 566 00:32:46,010 --> 00:32:47,860 I think that's probably a pretty good place to end. 567 00:32:47,870 --> 00:32:50,540 Yeah, I think that's. Wonderful, wonderful. 568 00:32:50,830 --> 00:32:53,420 OK, so we hope that this encourages you to have some 569 00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:57,440 conversation yourself. Some of those questions right 570 00:32:57,450 --> 00:33:03,340 might be the same. How do you interact and love 571 00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:07,770 interact with and love people who are experiencing doubts And 572 00:33:07,820 --> 00:33:10,750 maybe you know, one of the best things you could do is think 573 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,460 they're like, who showed up for you in a season of doubt? 574 00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:18,190 You had a season of uncertainty and wonder and doubt, and 575 00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:22,040 somebody showed up for you. You know what? 576 00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:24,560 What did that person do? What did they say? 577 00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:28,310 How were they toward you? And you know, I would just try 578 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,950 to encourage you to if you're one who is experiencing doubt, 579 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:36,650 if you are wondering yourself, questioning, these are the 580 00:33:36,660 --> 00:33:38,300 things that we like. These are the conversations we 581 00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:40,980 love to have. And so we would love to have 582 00:33:40,990 --> 00:33:44,130 that conversation with you. Find somebody to share that 583 00:33:44,140 --> 00:33:45,760 doubt with. Because like Elena, you pointed 584 00:33:45,770 --> 00:33:48,410 that out, like John takes his doubt to Jesus. 585 00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:51,990 He doesn't just rot away in his cell in isolation. 586 00:33:52,060 --> 00:33:54,290 And actually that is something I think is beautiful. 587 00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:58,950 Like he, he like kind of puts all his cards on the table. 588 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,110 He's he sends these messengers to Jesus. 589 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,400 But that's maybe the step that you need to take is to voice the 590 00:34:05,410 --> 00:34:08,570 doubt that have been kind of rattling around inside of you. 591 00:34:08,580 --> 00:34:11,290 So again, like Thomas Merton, I think is bang on. 592 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,550 You can't be a person of faith without also being a person of 593 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,400 doubt. And so we want to encourage your 594 00:34:16,409 --> 00:34:18,159 doubts and also encourage your faith. 595 00:34:18,170 --> 00:34:20,449 We hope that this conversation does that. 596 00:34:20,540 --> 00:34:22,330 Elena, thanks for joining me this week. 597 00:34:22,380 --> 00:34:24,840 Thanks for having. Me and we hope you have a good 598 00:34:24,850 --> 00:34:25,409 week.