Hey, friends, welcome to another episode of the podcast.
And this is a little bit of a different episode today, LA
Thanks for joining me. We have Elena, who is our kids
ministry director, children's ministry director.
I know we we were literally just saying that that that title like
that name changes almost every time we say it.
Angle the kids. Yeah.
So Ellen is responsible for like
our children's ministry. And so if your family, if you
are a parent, you've probably run into Elena.
But Elena, thanks for joining me today.
It's good to be here. Thanks.
For having me so conversation around Luke 7, we are moving our
way through. We're going to get through Luke
7 quicker than we got through like 6.
So it's a good chunk. Let's not read it today, but we
do have some questions around this interaction.
It's 2 or like 1 1/2 interactions.
So if you need like a refresher, this is John the Baptist sending
his messengers to Jesus with the main question of of, you know,
essentially Jesus, who are you are?
Are you the Messiah? Are you the one that we've been
waiting for or should we wait for another one?
And I know we're going to get into to that and conversation
around that question itself. They come, Jesus gives them an
answer and then they leave. And then Jesus turns and he, he
explains things in sort of greater measure to the crowds
who are still there. So that's why it's kind of like,
you know, 1 1/2 stories. It's, it's really one, one
interaction. But these guys come in from John
and then they leave. And then Jesus teaches, uses it
as a moment to teach the crowds. So again, thanks, this will be
fun. And we've got some questions, so
why don't we start there? Yeah.
So the first question that someone messaged us is around
this idea of, you know, when we meet John, he's introduced to
us, kind of us is really kind of prominent radical figure.
He's out there in the desert way back in Luke 3.
We see kind of the baptism account and there's John the
Baptist on the side of the water, Jesus being baptized.
The voice from heaven is speaking, saying, this is my
beloved son. There's the Holy Spirit.
And Matthew describes John can wearing these camel clothing and
eating Lotus like this is a, this is a, you know, a big, he's
a big deal. He's a, a solid prophet
proclaiming God's word. And now we're seeing this
interaction. We're seeing, you know, the
messengers are saying, Jesus, are you actually the one?
And we had some people wondering, you know, his John
actually questioning if Jesus is the Messiah.
You know how how do we understand where John is coming
from here? Is he really wrestling with
these doubts? Did he lose faith?
You know what is kind of going on for John right now.
I love this question because I really appreciate questions
around faith and doubt. And I'm just trying to find some
of these other verses as well, like with the, you know, the
baptism of Jesus in Luke and the baptism of Jesus in Matthew.
There's a couple differences there that might be worth
talking about. But just at like a high level, I
think we often assume that faith and doubt are opposites, that
you can you can have great faith or you have doubt.
Yeah. And, you know, I think in in
part of the church has not helped that.
I think we we have operated under a base assumption that to
express doubt means that, oh, you must not have faith.
One of my favorite, like Catholic monastic writers.
So Thomas Merton said that you can't be a person of faith
without being a person of doubt. And I love that, you know, say
what you will about, you know, Catholic brothers and sisters, I
know like theologically we agree on many things and theologically
we disagree on many things. I absolutely love that posture
toward faith, that faith by its necessity includes doubt.
So I, I like that as a base approach to faith and doubt.
So first, just to try to dispel the idea that to doubt
necessarily means to not have faith, right.
So I would agree with Thomas Merton.
I think we cannot be people of faith and we certainly can't be
people of bold, significant faith without also being people
who doubt and who wonder. And so, you know, I see, I see
Thomas post resurrection, Jesus appears to all the disciples.
You know, Thomas isn't there at 1st.
And then Thomas, you know, he, he gets kind of brought into the
to the story and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm not going to, I'm not gonna believe it until I put my hands
in the wounds and like see Jesus with my eyes and feel his body
with my hands. I will not like I'm not going to
believe. And and and I go, you know,
we've forever, we've called this dude doubting Thomas.
And I go like perfectly reasonable Thomas.
And I can't remember where I first heard that.
Like I didn't come up with it, but this dude is perfectly
reasonable given the circumstances, given what all
has happened. Like dead men don't normally
come back to life. And so perfectly reasonable
approach is like, I need to be able to express these doubts in
order to reach a place of faith. And what I love in the church is
when we do that well and allow people to ask questions and
voice doubts and express concern and wrestle out their faith.
Like that's what's happening. They're wrestling out faith less
so. You know, I think we can
historically have a tendency in the church, too, be scared of
people's doubt and be scared of questions and people wrestling
out in real time in front of us. Yeah, their faith, because it,
it kind of forces me. Like if you're wrestling your
faith out and if you're expressing doubt, then that like
pushes or impinges on my faith. Like, what does that like, do I
know what I believe? Like, do I have the same
questions? I thought I had a strong fit.
Like it kind of pushes us inside.
So we, you know, I think just need to get over that challenge
and struggle and say, hey, in order to be a good a person of
good faith, like great faith, bold faith, in order to have
faith, you need to be a person who doubts and who wrestles.
So I think John the Baptist is doubting Jesus.
I do think so. And I didn't, I don't know that
I said that in that exact language yesterday for us
yesterday. We're recording this on Monday.
What I said in my sermon is that John is questioning whether
Jesus is the Messiah because Jesus hasn't lived up to his,
John's expectations of what that Messiah would be and look like
and do. So I do think John has doubt.
I think he doesn't know who Jesus is to the extent that
Jesus isn't fulfilling what John thought would be the true right
picture of the Messiah. So he is wondering, He is
expressing concern and questioning whether he has
chosen to trust the wrong person.
And I think that, you know, again, like faith as a term
people can struggle with, right? Like, what does it actually mean
to have faith at the end of the day?
Like, faith is trust, yeah. And it's trust that Jesus is who
he says he is. Yeah.
And so I think that John is starting to wonder whether he's
put his trust in the wrong person.
Yeah. Like is Jesus actually the
Messiah? So yes, I think John is
expressing doubt. Um, and I don't think that that
doubt needs to be like explained away or, you know, like it At
the same time, it doesn't, I don't think need to cause
massive like crisis of, of faith for us.
I think it ought to encourage us that even John, who Jesus in the
next section calls the greatest, like, you know, yeah, greatest
prophet. He even he that John has doubt
and questions and wonders and Jesus is here for it.
He's like, bring it on. I got I He doesn't.
He doesn't rebuke John. Like he doesn't say you have
little faith. He says that elsewhere, but
like, you know, he doesn't say you have little faith.
Like, how could you? You're my cousin.
Like, haven't you seen all these things?
Like, don't you remember when he, he has this very calm, non
anxious watch what I do and make a decision for yourself?
He he he invites John, I think by way of his messengers into
the fullness of his doubt. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that kind
of stand out to me is an encouragement when I read this
is also just, you know, the humanity of John.
Like he yes, I think especially maybe with, you know, with that
childhood image. You see these pictures, you
know, if the again, this man in the desert with the scraggly
clothes and, you know, he seems so kind of almost otherworldly.
I think we have a lot sometimes we have a lot of those ideas
around the prophets in the Old Testament, you know, these
mighty men who are almost in their own class.
But you know, he's you see him just his humanity he is going to
Jesus with. Yeah, he's with these doubts and
even him having seen everything he's seen and done everything
he's done, He's still has those those emotions and those
feelings and those questions. So, yeah, just point to your
point that, you know, having those doubts in the 1st place
doesn't mean that, you know, you're, you're calling or your,
your faith or your faith journey has not been been amazing or
true or yeah, it doesn't. Those two things can exist in
the same person in the same time of life.
But then also where he goes with that.
So that's kind of the significant thing is he doesn't
just wrestle that out by himself in his prison cell.
He takes his initiative to send his messengers and he takes
those doubts to Jesus and he he questions him and he brings it
to him. And then the next part, what you
were saying is kind of that Jesus's response to him.
So I was hoping we could talk a little bit more about how Jesus
then addresses the questions and how does he kind of interact
with John in that moment with doubt and what could we maybe
learn about that as we we address the doubts of people who
come to us? Yeah, OK.
So not our even our own doubt necessarily.
So yes, our own doubt, but also other people who are expressing
doubt. So I love that angle on the
question because like, I think we can just, we have a tendency
to to personalize things and make it like about about me and
my doubt and my experience and, and you know how Jesus shows up
for me, which is great and good and right.
Like it's a good place to be and to start.
And if you need to sit there, wonderful.
But yeah, again, I think Jesus gives us this really calm and I
use this this language on purpose, like non anxious
response to John's doubt. He he.
So if you look at the the story like as the narrative unfolds
and 20 they show up. So the men had come to him.
They said, John the Baptist has sent us to you saying, are you
the one who is to come or shall we look for another?
And then in 21 in that hour, he healed many people of diseases
and plagues and evil spirits and on many who were blind, he
bestowed sight and he answered them.
Go and tell John what you have seen and heard.
And then he goes into that line. The blind receive their site,
the lame walk, leopards cleanse the deaf here, the dead are
raised up, the poor have good news preached to them.
And so two things are happening. One Jesus begins by, like I've
said, not rebuking John, not immediately correcting him.
He doesn't chastise John for having doubt.
Instead, what he invites the messengers into is just more of
witnessing who Jesus is like he he instead of distancing himself
from from them in a way that you know, he could just simply
answer, yes, I am. Go back and tell John I'm the
one, like, put your head on straight.
I like, we've been over this a couple of times.
You've seen the thing, which in my mind was like, distancing.
Yeah, Jesus distancing himself from the question, which he
never does. Like Jesus doesn't distance
himself from things that other people, onlookers would perceive
as, like, incorrect or socially taboo.
So we're going to see that at the end of seven.
So this coming Sunday, without spoiling, you know, the whole
sermon, we get this really awkward social interaction
between Jesus, a woman who's not named and a Pharisee.
And it's, you know, this, this woman comes in, Jesus is eating
with the Pharisee and the woman anoints Jesus feet or washes,
washes his feet with her tears and hair and then anoints him.
And it, it's this, like everybody from the outside, and
we're going to get into this on Sunday, Everybody from the
outside would be looking at this going like what is happening and
trying to like, it's one of those awkward situations where
you like, you're so everything is so awkward that you're just
like, I want to crawl into a hole and just, you know, not
have this happen. And, and, and so when human
inclination is to back up and kind of distance ourselves from
what's happening. And Jesus is always one who
leans in. So I see that happening here.
For starters, he, he doesn't rebuke, he doesn't challenge, he
doesn't correct, he leans in, he embraces them.
He actually invites them deeper into their doubt by saying, no
watch, like, look at what I'm doing.
Like he he's not just saying, Oh, I'll prove it to you and
that he actually invites them deeper into their out or into
John's doubt spoken, you know, by these messengers by by
continuing to do the thing. So he heals and, uh, you know,
like that again, you kind of wonder, like amazing moment, but
he continues just to live out the Kingdom.
Yeah. He's like, this is who I am.
This is who I am. You know how I've been sent to
be. And I'm gonna do that.
I'm going to invite you into it so that you can see it.
And he almost like he's like, you know, make up your own mind,
like you make up your mind on this.
But I'm not going to change who I am or how I am, like how I'm
acting just simply to make, to give you an easy answer.
So invite some further into their doubt.
They get to witness it happening and then make up their own
minds. So he invites them into that
whole journey. Then he says finally, right?
Go and tell John what you've seen and what you've heard.
And here's where he turns. He flips to not quoting verbatim
Scripture, yeah, but really pulling that thread from Isaiah
61 forward where the Messiah spoken of as one who does heal
and bring restoration and year of Jubilee language.
So again, this is Jesus opening that scroll in the synagogue at
the beginning of Luke where he reads from it and he says, I am
this one who was spoken about and the blind are going to see
in the lamb are going to walk and the dead are going to be
raised. And so he's really pulling that
thread forward from earlier in Luke where he's spoken those
words and ultimately from Isaiah 61.
So one quick comment on that. I think Jesus actually models in
a really simple way. Go ahead again.
He could have said I am the Messiah, I am the one.
But he's helping John get there. He's helping John connect the
dots. Yeah.
And so he doesn't make it easy on John, but he doesn't make it
overly hard either. So there's no guilt or shame.
Yeah, but he also doesn't give the simple, easy answer, like,
yes, get over it. Away we go.
So for us, how can we help other people who are expressing doubt
#1 like, come on, Like, no guilt, no shame in it with you.
And love that you're having these questions and thoughts and
wondering out loud about this. So thanks.
So I want people in our congregation.
And I'm sure you see this, like, working with parents, right?
Like, you're like, your kids are going to ask you crazy questions
about the Bible. And so one of the best things we
can do and our teams can do is help parents have those
conversations well with their kids when it happens.
So yeah, like, no guilt, no shame.
We're in it with you. Love that you're having these
thoughts and asking these questions and wondering out
loud. Thanks for sharing it with me.
All of those things that you would want to receive, right?
So that's I think our posture toward people needs to be open
and as Jesus models lean in and invite people further into it,
sit with it. And then I think the best thing
we can do because like I, you know, I'm not going to turn
around and be like, well, watch these people who are being
healed and like blind are like, we don't, you know, it's, it's
not the same turn that Jesus can make.
But I think we can encourage people by inviting them into our
story and by reminding them how we together can and have seen
God work so further into doubt. Don't be afraid of it.
Name it like Lean In. And then ultimately I think we
want to be people who can sit with our doubt in front of Jesus
and as a community, remind one another of where we've seen God
work. So like, I walked in this
morning. Yeah, it was this morning.
And so, like, I get here fairly early.
Like not, you know, and that's just by virtue of like, I wanna
spend time with my kids. It's not because I'm like, oh
great, I'm gonna be the first tier in the last to leave.
No, it's like I wanna be, I wanna be at home when my kids
are home from school. So, you know, early two of our
scene, you know, two guys, two guys are here for the
maintenance team. Like, and I, I love it.
Both of them are retired and I I say senior and I don't want to
offend anybody, but like these are guys who have been here
like, you know, basically since the beginning of this church
being planted. They're amazing, nothing can
stop them. I absolutely love.
It's like they're hanging across on the outside of our building
today, which is going to look great.
And so I'm wandering in. It's like still like, OK,
coffee. And what do I need to do today?
And they're telling me the story.
Have you heard the story of, you know, when we did this and
needed this amount of money and prayed and like, it was like,
you know, I think the amount of money that needed to be raised
was $70,000 and in in like on the day that they tallied it was
like 70,000 and $10. Yeah.
So it's just like, you know, really practical.
But like these dudes are like they're fired up about this
story from I don't 20 years ago maybe where like God moved in
our community and provided exactly what we needed.
Like not much more, but certainly not any less.
And so I said to them, I was like we.
Like these are the stories we need to hold on to and continue
to pass down, even, like, from our generation to generation.
Yeah. Because it reminds us of how God
has shown up. Yeah.
And so, you know, it's not like your job.
My job isn't to convince somebody to not experience
doubt. You're not going to be able to
fix someone's doubt, but we can remind people, I think, of the
goodness of God and where we've seen it at work.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, as we were going
through that through the end of community Bible study together
in Luke 6. And that passage just ends with
that, that kind of discussion on fruit, right?
Like a tree and its fruit. You know, no good tree bears bad
fruit, nor does the bad, you know, each tree is recognized by
its fruit to that whole discussion.
And yeah, that's also just, you know, we remind each other of
the fruit like we in our community here in our church,
you know, sometimes. Yeah, it's just we don't see it
because, you know, maybe John the Baptist, like he was
thinking of maybe these prophecies of like the the
Kingdom being restored and, you know, maybe he was focusing on
that one aspect. But Jesus said, no, remember
this, this is here too. And this is happening right now.
Like if you can see it, it's here.
And sometimes maybe we're, we're just focusing in on the one area
and there's all this other fruit happening and we just need to
remind each other and point it out to each other and come
alongside. Oh, hey, yeah, there's, there's
trickier, there's good things. And I think that's always, yeah,
that's encouraging to me too, is just being around the community
and hearing these stories of God showing up in these amazing
ways. And, you know, it's not
necessarily a quick fix for doubt, but it's it's part of as
we walk alongside each other and we encourage each other with
that. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I love that perspective on it because it does like I think one
of the things we want to help people enter into their doubt,
but like we also don't want to become so myopic that like
that's the only thing that we're focusing on.
And this is like this one thing. And I think that's what John
does. Because if you read all of
Isaiah 61. So the thing that the thing for
me is I pictured John in prison. I think I said this yesterday,
like so prison for John is very likely in and around the Dead
Sea. So very dry arid, um, you know,
uncomfortable place to be in a prison.
And you know, so like I picture him going like, when am I gonna
get busted out of here? Like when, when is it my turn?
Because in, in Isaiah 61, if you read it, it literally says like
liberty to the captives, right? So in Isaiah 6/1, it talks about
prisoners being set free very literally.
And I think John is like, he's like, that's the line for me.
When's it going to come? And what Jesus, it's just like,
it's just like zoom out the lens a little bit and and remind
ourselves of all of the entirety of life within the Kingdom.
And maybe this isn't literally John.
You're gonna be released from prison because ultimately that's
not what happens for John. But in the big picture, grand
scheme of things, the Kingdom is unfolding in ways that John
doesn't really know. Like, I don't know, I don't be
too hard on John, but like, in very, you know, in very real
ways that I think are still unfolding in front of him.
He's figuring out in real time that the Kingdom isn't what he
expected. Yeah.
And in many ways is a whole lot bigger.
But in other ways, he's actually, he's going to be let
down because he's he's going to end up dying in prison.
And he's got to wrestle that out in real time.
Like, what does this actually mean beyond immediately being
released? So help people zoom out, I think
is a helpful thing. Don't wipe out the doubt.
But just like, let's just broaden our perspective a bit.
That's good. Alright.
The last thing we we kind of wanted to touch on briefly and I
definitely had this question when I was listening to the
passage being read. I'm sure other people had as
well. After John, John's, you know,
Jesus, sorry, tells the messengers, you know, go and
tell John. He then kind of turns around and
he he kind of praises John to the people and he has this
little bit where he say, he says, what did you go out in the
wilderness to see a Reed swayed by the wind?
If not, what did you go out to see?
A man dressed in fine clothes? And then he says, you know, I
tell you he's more than a prophet, the one about whom it
is written, I will send my messenger ahead of you who will
prepare your way before you. And then there's this line at
the end there. He says, I tell you, among those
born of women, there is no one greater than John, yet the one
who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he.
Yeah. So we just kind of had a
question around what does this mean that John, you know, among
those born women, there is none greater than John, yet the least
in the Kingdom is greater than he.
That seems like a little bit of a confusing thing to wrap our
heads, so maybe you can help us kind of tease that out a bit.
Yeah, for sure. So I pictured Jesus.
So Jesus talking in other instances about being born
again, like you've been born of flesh, born of of body, born of
here. It says like born of women,
women. So, you know, obviously he's
talking about like physical, real, physical birth.
But elsewhere where he talks about now you need to be born of
spirit. And I think that's a little bit
of the distinction that we're seeing here.
So Jesus is saying, yeah, there there are, there are two ways of
being born. You can be born of flesh.
Like everybody has this first birth where you are born into
the world, but you need to be born of spirit.
Do you need to be born again? You need to be renewed in that
way of like God's Spirit getting ahold of you and recreating much
of your life. And so I think here what he's
saying is if, if life outside the Kingdom and life inside the
Kingdom can be talked about in the kind of like birth language,
born of flesh, born of spirit, then, uh, we can also look at
it, um, maybe as like perspective.
So what I mean by that is, is among people, you can look at
John and say, no, no one is greater right?
Like here's the So what Jesus doesn't want to have happen, I
think is for people to go away and be like, oh, John's messed
up. He's missed the boat.
John's got doubt. Like maybe John's wrong.
We shouldn't listen to John. And if John's wrong, then maybe
is Jesus wrong too? Like if John was wrong about the
about Jesus, then what does it say about Jesus?
Who, who is he really? Like?
Maybe, maybe Jesus is wrong. Like so I think Jesus actually
wants to reaffirm the authority with which John is is moving so
far. But from that like outside
perspective, people would see John in that light as like the
greatest prophet who's lived to this date.
So for the people of Israel, they have these stories, these
collective narratives. They, they remember, they say
they remember. But like collectively as a
people, they remember like Jeremiah and Isaiah and they
remember the prophets who led their people through, you know,
a whole lot of turmoil and up and down and reconciliation with
God, with others. Like there's a lot that the
prophets so and and what Jesus is saying is listen like none
greater than John like this this he has authority.
This is the one you know whom it?
Was like spoke about him. Right.
You know this. He has prophesied about himself,
John. Yeah.
And so he says, I tell you, like, among those born of women,
none is greater than John, so you should still listen to him.
But then he flips it and he says, hey, And you know what's
even better than that? Anyone inside the Kingdom is
greater in a spiritual reality sense than John.
So it's not that. I don't think he's saying like
John is now lesser somehow and excluded.
Like I don't. I certainly don't think he's
saying that John is excluded. What he is saying is that
there's like there's a shift and John is functionally the last
prophet before Jesus. Jesus becomes the prophet.
So like the office, you know, threefold office that Jesus
holds prophet, priest and king. And those are the his his role
title function like that. You know how he he is inside the
Kingdom is one who acts as profit, one who acts as priest 1
to access king. So we don't need and just, and I
had some of this conversation in an earlier episode of the
podcast. So there's still the gifts of
prophecy that continue gifting through the Spirit of Prophecy
continues to this day. Well, you know, actually that's
argued, but I would say it continues.
But need for profit in this way, knowledge is no longer needed,
no longer necessary. So Jesus steps in ultimately
into that, that ultimate role of, of profit.
But I think really what what Jesus is trying to say is that
there is a shift that happens between John and Jesus and that
is the Kingdom has now come and life inside the Kingdom is
possible. And it's almost like you're
saying not just for the great prophets, but for everyone,
anyone and anyone who who has the spirit of God, who lives
life inside the Kingdom. He says even the one that you
would consider the least of these.
Yeah, I don't necessarily even think Jesus is saying like
there's gonna be this full on hierarchy in the Kingdom of
heaven and like the one who just scrapes in like that's not what
he's saying. I think what he's saying is you
all see John as a great prophet and you should.
Yes. Even if you all who see John as
a great prophet consider someone to be the absolute last least in
the Kingdom of heaven, even that person is greater than John
because of the gift and the blessing and the flourishing of
life that happens inside the Kingdom because of the Spirit.
So he's not saying John's excluded.
He's not saying that they're going to be like these little
itty bitty people inside the Kingdom and like some people who
are great and some people who just scrape in.
But what he's saying is, even for those of us who would
consider someone the least of these inside the Kingdom, even
that person is greater than John because of the gift of what it
means to be inside the. Kingdom, yeah, I liked how one
commentator kind of described it as he's saying the state of
blessedness in the in the Kingdom.
And, you know, we were just talking in community, I will
study on the sermon on the plane.
It starts off with the the blessed statements.
And we were talking about how God, how Jesus is kind of
shaping these Kingdom, people, Kingdom allowing people and what
it means, what it looks like to live in God's Kingdom and the
blessing that comes with that. And again, just kind of that
reminder of, you know, this is the Kingdom that has been that
Jesus has come to usher in and everything changes now.
Like we are called to be part of this Kingdom and experience this
blessedness and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And it I got it. I think it's a great, it's a
great promise. And there is a great in, in my
in my mind and experience of it. Like there's a great hope in, in
these sayings. I think that the thing that can
creep in is like that, like, Oh well, I wonder who's going to be
the least right. And no, no, that's not what he's
saying. We missed the point.
Like to say that to focus on the least is to miss the point of
Jesus saying is greater than he, right.
Which is it? Like what you're pointing us
toward is that the blessing is so much greater.
Yeah, than we could hope for, imagine or dream up ourselves.
Yeah. Wonderful.
Any other questions that we think we should cover?
I think that's probably a pretty good place to end.
Yeah, I think that's. Wonderful, wonderful.
OK, so we hope that this encourages you to have some
conversation yourself. Some of those questions right
might be the same. How do you interact and love
interact with and love people who are experiencing doubts And
maybe you know, one of the best things you could do is think
they're like, who showed up for you in a season of doubt?
You had a season of uncertainty and wonder and doubt, and
somebody showed up for you. You know what?
What did that person do? What did they say?
How were they toward you? And you know, I would just try
to encourage you to if you're one who is experiencing doubt,
if you are wondering yourself, questioning, these are the
things that we like. These are the conversations we
love to have. And so we would love to have
that conversation with you. Find somebody to share that
doubt with. Because like Elena, you pointed
that out, like John takes his doubt to Jesus.
He doesn't just rot away in his cell in isolation.
And actually that is something I think is beautiful.
Like he, he like kind of puts all his cards on the table.
He's he sends these messengers to Jesus.
But that's maybe the step that you need to take is to voice the
doubt that have been kind of rattling around inside of you.
So again, like Thomas Merton, I think is bang on.
You can't be a person of faith without also being a person of
doubt. And so we want to encourage your
doubts and also encourage your faith.
We hope that this conversation does that.
Elena, thanks for joining me this week.
Thanks for having. Me and we hope you have a good
week.