Hey, friend, Welcome to another episode of the Sunday.
Sit down. And we hope that this episode
finds you having a good winter week.
Felt like winter disappeared for a few days and we got a whole
lot of rain and everything flooded and and then it all
froze and here we are with a parking lot full of ice.
So that was a fun morning. Yeah.
We hope that you're having a good start to your new year.
I don't know about you, Justin, or you who's listening, but my
wife and I were talking this week like, it's just felt like
2026 has started off by like a little bit punch you in the
teeth kind of way. And it's.
I don't know exactly why that is.
There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on in the
world, and it seems like everybody's sick and.
And the weather sucks, yeah. And it's like all the things
combined. I yeah, I, I feel that.
I feel that, yeah. Yeah.
But Happy New Year for whatever that is worth at this point, I
think this too far along. I don't think you can say Happy
New Year on the 12th of January anymore.
You know what it's we got a month, we got a month, we got
January. That's that's only one in 12 for
like the year you. Know, I did call 2026 a newborn
baby that's still wet behind the ears in the sermon.
Like if Tony 26 was a baby, it would still be wet behind it,
like, just fresh out. So it is the start of the new
year, Yeah. So and you started off we've
started back into Luke in our Sunday for Sunday worship.
We are. You kind of talked a little bit
about like, you know, you can do the calculations.
We're halfway through, yeah, this and, and you, we started
off back into Luke with like an exceptionally like challenging
passage. It's like their their passages.
Like I think the last time we were in Luke, which was I think
when I was preaching from the beginning of Luke 12 and the end
of Luke 11, it was like theologically challenging in
some ways, in a lot of ways, This one pretty pretty clear in
many ways. Like they, there's, there's
some, I think nuance of understanding, but man, like I
think just just challenge. This was challenging in a very
different way, convicting. I know for a lot of people I
know that, like my wife and I, last night, we're out on a walk
and like talking through things and it's like it's, it's, it's
just challenging to do the thing because it's about money and our
possessions and stuff. Which Which is exactly, I think,
just a name. It's exactly what I hope happens
after a challenging sermon, right?
So when like, it's good that it's good that things are
challenging, it's good that they're difficult.
It's good it's that it's hard to walk out and, and it's good that
you're feeling it because it means that you're really
actually wrestling with it. Like if we preached, if I, if I
got up there and I preached, you know, on the a passage exactly
like this, you know, difficult not to understand, but difficult
to actually live out. And then people like, well,
that's easy. That was a simple, you know,
simple thing, simple message. Like I, I would have felt like
I've failed. So I think it's good, like it's
good to feel it because honestly, I think that means
you're taking it seriously. So to anybody out there who's
also feeling it, be like walking away from that sermon.
Or, you know, you can go back and reread Luke 12 and we're
talking about, we're talking about not being anxious for the
things that you need, not even the things that you want, but
like food and clothing and shelter, like the actual real
need needs of life and just says don't be anxious about it.
Like your heavenly Father knows that you need them and he wants
to give you these things. So don't chase after them, chase
after the Kingdom and let me worry about the rest of it.
But it's like you said, it's, it's maybe easy to understand
the thing. It's a lot harder to actually
live it out. And that's what I was trying to
press into. When you know, when you when you
kind of unpack this parable of the land owner who's really
successful and then who makes, you know, he makes a whole lot
of money quote like I'm using air quotes here like money.
But he has a lot of material possessions in the day, mostly
food, right? And So what does he do?
He, you know, he thinks to himself, I'm going to knock down
the barns that I have. I'm going to build bigger barns
and I'm going to store away more.
I've been really successful. And I think the the danger of a
parable like that is that you like characterize this
individual and you make him out to be a villain.
You make him out to be well, you start to make assumptions.
He must have been profiting by being unethical.
He must be an evil person. He must be one who is harsh
toward his workers. He must be one who's profiting
on on the backs of of others. He must be profiting to the
degree that others are losing and suffering.
And Jesus offers none of that in the parable.
The hard part is that he's he just seems like a reasonable
guy. And we could, yeah, we could
make lots of assumptions that that Jesus doesn't give us.
But. But I think, yeah, if you go
with just, you know, Occam's razor, the most logical solution
here is that, yeah, he was just someone who's like, I've got too
much stuff. I need more stuff for my stuff.
Yeah. You know, and like that, that
tracks in our, in our, in in our world.
I feel like that is, you know, not an uncommon thing.
I I need you know, to make a do a renovation on my house so that
I can fit more or whatever, right?
Like. So you, I don't have a tablet or
phone with me here, but can you look something up?
So absolutely there is a stat that floats around on how much
storage there is. And I don't know, I can't
remember if it's in the States or if it's in North America, but
like how much storage space there is per like human being.
And it's kind of wild how we've created an entire industry to
store away things that we don't have space for in our house,
where we also store away things wherever that is, right?
Whether it's our, our house, whether it's an apartment or
the, you know, whatever place we're choosing to live at
whatever given time. In my mind, like those like
storage facilities, those are meant for like when I'm moving.
I, I, that's the only time I've ever used one.
I was moving. We had like a two months like
like period where we had stuff in, in a storage thing.
But people like, sometimes people like they have just
permanent residents, not like they're not living in them, but
like their, their stuff is permanently residing there.
Yeah. Like, and that's where you get
like those cheesy shows where they like, you know, just sell
off the sell all the stuff cause like they're in arrears and yeah
and yeah. You might not be able to find
it. You might be able to find it.
I think it is kind of wild to me how much industry is built
around even, yeah, storing up of things that we don't need, that
we've maybe even forgotten that we have.
I'm getting an AI overview that basically says and, and so I
take this with a grain of salt, but it might be relatively true
is that it's so around 6.3 square feet in the US per person
of storage. And that's like far and away
larger than any other part of the world.
Because if you even go to even go to like the, the UK, they
don't value space in the same way that that North Americans
tend to like the thought of having like, I have a finished
basement. The thought of like like having
a a hangout area or potentially even like a living area like
where someone would sleep in a basement is like often a foreign
concept. Even grass right?
Like the idea of of the lot distribution is different SO36
square feet. More than six square feet per
person. Yeah, yeah.
So like that's like take a step and then turn and take 1/2 step,
Hmm. In the, in the 90° angle.
And that's kind of like roughly the amount per person.
Yeah, per individual. Yeah.
Which is wild to me. Yeah.
So that's just a random fact for your, you know, your morning.
Listen on the Sunday sit down that there's the fact that you
can you can put away and you know never need to know again.
So, so one of the, yeah, as we've said, like this whole,
this whole passage is, I think fairly fairly easy to understand
the implication, but much harder to do because I think we can
automatically go to the questions of like the extreme
like, well, it's like, well, I don't have what that billionaire
has. Like I'm not hoarding wealth
like them. I'm not, I'm not doing this or,
you know, for, for different like lower income brackets.
It's like, well, I will never attain any level of, of that,
you know, that type of greed or whatever because it's not
possible for me. But, but I, I think one thing
that you sort of cut 2 was like whether you are very well off in
your life and you've had a successful career or whether you
have very little. The heart is really where we
need to look at in terms of understanding what is going on
for us. Because you've seen contentment
with people who are very little and exceeding generosity with
those who have very much right. And, and some of those
conversations are complex. But so, so I think we end up
like asking ourselves like a lot of a lot of questions that that
are like particulars, like the question that we were asking
that I know that I was asking when we were like doing sermon
prep last week was OK. So like, are my retirement
savings is that, is that sin? You know, and like, that's where
we want to go right away. Yeah.
And, and it's like Jesus, I feel like I, I feel like Jesus would
be asking the same questions. I'm like, look, I'm not your
accountant like. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm more like interested in what's going on in
here, you know, and, and. Yeah.
Yeah, I think there's. So there's there's a lot there.
The just to to comment on the first thing that you said.
I think the natural one of our natural human inclinations is to
do that like, well, what about what about this person or what
about that person? What about the billionaire has
like, I don't have that much or we go immediately to comparison
where there's just this yeah, yeah, this this tendency to say,
well, I'm not as bad as so therefore I must be good.
Like I'm. For justification purposes.
Yeah, and you go, well, I'm not as bad as that person.
I'm not as bad as that family, you know, that couple and how
they spend money is far worse. Or nobody should be allowed to
have a billion dollars and it it just all it does, is it it it
avoids accountability in your own life because you get to feel
good that you're not as bad as somebody else, right.
So I think as soon as you know, if, if that's the inclination in
your heart, is it gonna say, well, at least I'm not as bad as
like that already. It should be.
I think should be pointing you towards something going on
inside of you or to say, well, you know, there are billionaires
that exist out there. We should like there's
billionaire shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Sure, fair make that argument, but that, you know, that's no
reason for you to be any different with your own time and
money and resources, right? Yeah, You know, the their
existence shouldn't it doesn't doesn't give you justification
to do whatever you want, which I think sometimes we want to like
we want to say, well, you know, there's enough food to feed
everybody. It's just a distribution issue.
So I'm not going to do anything about it, right.
Or, you know, there's enough money for everybody in the world
to be, you know, to live some level of of lifestyle.
So, you know, why should I be the one to give anything away?
It should be the people with more and and I go, yeah, OK,
true. It should be.
And it should also be you like there.
It's it's tough to, I think. Do you start to make that
argument? Whenever you start to make that
argument, I think I know you know, it's, it's often from a
place of I don't really want to do what I'm feeling convicted to
do, so I'm going to make other people worse than I am so that I
can be OK with where I'm at. And it's like we need to have,
we need to have two different conversations.
There is a, there is a conversation to be had about
like, hey, let's talk about the ethics of, of like, you know,
say food inequity and say like, well, you know, like around the
world, there is enough to go around and like there are, there
are barriers and systemic issues.
And like, let's talk about the ethics of all of these things
and geopolitics. And like that is that's a very
different conversation. That's it's very interesting to
have. It's great to talk about, you
know, it's great to talk about the ethics of billionaires, but
it's, it's removed from again of it.
It avoids talking about our hearts and what's going on for
me personally. And that if I am, you know, if I
make X amount of dollars and I'm willing to be just completely
unaccountable for any of it, that's a me problem, not a, a
global food source. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like. Absolutely.
And, and so like I named this on Sunday, but I feel like it's
helpful to name again, Jesus actually presses on that point
right where, you know, he so this younger brother.
And, and we're assuming that, but, you know, I think
commentators and theologians would agree that's a fairly safe
assumption. The older brother is probably
not going to be the one coming to Jesus to say, like, make my
younger brother share the distribute, like, you know,
divide the, the inheritance equally or differently.
Like that's not just not a scenario that would happen.
So younger brother comes to Jesus.
Jesus doesn't say, yeah, you know what, you're right.
Your older brother shouldn't have that much money.
He should share it. I mean equivalent to to saying,
yeah, you know what, those billionaires shouldn't exist.
They should share. It just doesn't do that.
What he says is you're you're both being driven by
covetousness. You're both being driven by
greed and envy. So greed for the things that you
want and don't have and think you are maybe even owed or do.
But again, don't have envy to look at what somebody else has
and to say, you know, in a in an unhealthy way.
I want that to the degree that you're saying, you know, I
deserve what you have, right? So I think it's helpful just to
flesh those things out. But Jesus doesn't play either
game. Yeah, right.
It doesn't say to this, this younger brother.
Yeah. You know what?
You're right. You, you you should be given a
little bit more and things should be fair quote, right.
Or he he doesn't say. Yeah.
You know what the older brother should give you more than what
you have. He also doesn't say, you know,
tough luck. Yeah, you know, this is what the
law says. So just do the thing.
He cuts, like you said, he cuts to the heart of the issue, which
is both of their creeds. And that's, like, brilliant
quote. And I brought Fred Craddock's
commentary where he says, like, who?
Who can decide? You know, who can decide whose
greed is is better or worse, right?
Like, that's the line. Yeah.
So. So he's got this great take on
on Jesus. He's like Jesus is asked to be a
referee and he refuses. After all, who can judge whose
greed is right? And so, you know, I think we sit
here and go, yeah, OK, should there be a conversation around,
yeah, food distribution, the wealth that exists in the world,
how we've made a mess of it? Yes, definitely.
At some point in some way, absolutely.
But that's not what Jesus is saying here.
He calls both of it greed. Whether you have much or have
little, we're all capable of greed and of envy and
covetousness to kind of sum all of that up and a way of being.
So I think then the question becomes, I think you're going to
take us there. The question becomes, OK, yeah.
So what? What do you do with it?
And so, yeah, the, the, the question that I, I think we
should all be asking is simply what is enough?
What is enough? And, and I think that there's a
lot of different directions you could go in that.
I have sort of like a, I'm not gonna ask this yet because it's
sort of like a follow up from, from the question of what is
enough. But just like, what's the first
thing that comes to mind when when I ask that question?
So OK two, I want to tell two stories.
Number one, I heard a pastor in the States named Brian Loretz
preach a sermon on, on this topic of enough and what is
enough. And, you know, my, my wife and I
walked away from that hearing that.
And it was at the Global Leadership Summit one year.
We walked away from that really wrestling out for ourselves, OK,
what will be enough? And so he tells the story where
he planted a church in early on, he, you know, was making
peanuts. And then the church started to
grow and the board in their constitution and their makeup,
the board got together and said, OK, we're going to give him a
raise. And so they gave him a raise and
he accepted that ways and then the church continued to grow.
And so a few years later he got another raise and a few years
later the same thing. So trajectory over, you know, a,
a chunk of career was that his income was increasing as the
church was growing and as his responsibility was increasing
and etcetera. So all that was happening and he
tells his story of having to sit down with his wife and decide
like, are we going? Are we going to is it right for
us to take this? A, is it right for us to take
this raise? B Like what are we going to do?
Like is this, are we going to, we're just going to commit
ourselves to this endless pursuit of increase, right?
Like are we content just allowing this to happen and
allowing ourselves to raise, you know, raise our lifestyle with
the income, household income increase?
Or are we going to choose and commit to be different about how
we use it? And So what they came up, what
they decided was that they're going to take the increase.
Like they're gonna they're, they're going to use the
increase or, or like accept it, I think could be the word he
used. But they are going to decide as
a family what is enough. And anything that they make as a
household, she's like, you know, she was working, he was working.
Anything they make as a household over that enough,
they're gonna give away. Hmm.
So some of it they're gonna tie back to the church.
Some of they're gonna give to mission organizations and
partners. And they're just gonna then with
the recipe generous with it. But for them, it was a conscious
decision of saying, OK, this is what enough looks like for us as
a family and we're going to choose to not accidentally
increase enough because I think that's what happened.
So I walked away really convicted about that.
And this was like a decade ago almost now that probably
honestly around the same time that if you're in the sermon on
Sunday, around the same time that we started doing these
crazy experiments like eating all the food in our house until
we, you know, until buying anything else because we, like,
we were convicted as a couple. OK, how are we gonna be?
And figuring out, like to decide and determine and discern what
is enough is a really hard thing to do.
So, you know, what we decided was we've got to figure out what
enough is. And enough should probably,
like, feel a little bit uncomfortable.
Like it shouldn't feel like cushy.
It shouldn't feel safe. It shouldn't feel like we can do
everything we want and buy everything we want.
And not have to ask any questions and not have any hard
conversations and we can go on whatever vacation we wanna go on
like that I think would be many people's definition of enough.
And So what what Brian Lauritz and that story really revealed
to us was, OK, you've got to fight the urge to just allow
your your lifestyle to increase with your household income
because that's like, it's like, what's the science experiment?
I don't think it's a science experiment.
This would be a terrible science experiment.
But like boiling frogs never like jump out of the pot.
Like if you put them in when the water's cold and then you put
the pot on and they boil, like they will stay in the pot and
die because they don't register the temperature, like the slow
temperature rise. That's a horrible science
experiment. Please nobody do that science
experiment. But if you were to like toss a
frog into boiling water, apparently they like they jump
out because you know, they know this is this is going to kill
me. And I think that our like our
tolerance for enough or for like it's changes slowly as we age,
you know, for for many people. And I would say that like the
caveat here is, you know, obviously always are exceptions
to these kind of general analogies and statements.
But typically as a household, let's say your income is gonna
increase over, you know, from your, let's say early 20s to
fifties, right? The assumption is your income is
going to increase and as. You further your career as
you're like the, the I think I'm thinking about like the, the
common trajectory for a lot of people, not everyone, but but
like that, that is usually you starting your career and you
build and build and build. And by the time you have 50s,
you kind of you're at your, your pinnacle, right?
Yeah. So what happens with that
trajectory is that your lifestyle changes.
You start to buy more things, live in a bigger house, you move
houses, buy nicer things, you go out to eat more, maybe go on a
vacation, maybe go on another vacation.
Like your lifestyle increases, uh, often at the rate of your
career trajectory. Now, what also happens is your
lifestyle increases too fast, right?
Yeah. But what can equally happen,
what the equally possibility is to say we're not gonna allow our
lifestyle to increase at that rate.
We're not going to allow ourselves to become boiling
frogs. Like we're going to actually
choose to step out of that and be different toward our money
and toward our generosity with others, with the church, with,
you know, what God is doing in the world.
And that takes a conscious choice.
So I walked away from that, that leadership summit thinking to
myself, hey, how like, OK, what do we need to do in order to
determine and then commit to enough?
And we're still trying to figure it out.
So you start to have kids and you like your Bills.
And anyways, like it's a hard, but it needs to be this constant
conversation of what will be enough.
Now, on the flip side of it, I brought Craddock in because I
want to read another line that we were batting around in the
sermon prep, I think after the sermon.
So we were having this conversation, sermon prep and
Alison was texting, texting afterward.
And I sent this quote to you and to Allison and let me find it
because I think that this is this is actually harder for us
to grasp than just simply saying determine for yourself what is
enough and then give everything else away.
That would be a fantastic start if everybody would that be so
easy, But it's too easy. That's the thing.
Because if I get to determine what is enough then here.
OK, so while you're looking it up, like man, like what are
gifts? Craddocks commentary has been
like, he's just like, so such a sharp mind and yeah.
Yeah. And like Preacher, right?
So, yeah, that's why I really appreciate it.
He's got these lines. He's like the preacher should be
careful to not do this. I'm like, thank you, Fred.
OK, good deal. I won't do that.
So he says this. So he's talking about anxiety.
And I think this is gonna be a helpful chunk because one of the
questions that I think one could have walking away from a sermon
like that and from a passage like this is OK.
Well, is all anxiety just anxiety about material
possessions, wealth, money and things Like what about general
anxiety disorders? What about like clinically
diagnosed anxiety? What about the stuff that I, you
know, that that creeps in? Like, is it all like it just
says, don't be anxious? Like, can I just turn it off
like a faucet? Like what's going on?
So here's this is helpful. He says the second theme in the
unit on possessions concerns anxiety.
And then he says the injunction against anxiety is not a general
one. It's not against all anxieties.
And if I have, I don't regret, try not to have regrets after
preaching because like I believe that the preaching moment is
what it is because the Holy Spirit allows it to be so like,
I'm not gonna regret something. But I think if I were to preach
this again in a different way, this would be a line that I
would have included, right? That it's not an injunction.
Jesus isn't speaking against all kinds of anxiety, general
anxiety, all as a whole. He's speaking against a very
specific anxiety. And then credit goes on to say,
because sometimes actually anxiety is positive in the New
Testament. So Paul's got this positive
regard and care for the church. So you see that in second
Corinthians, Timothy has it right, Timothy's anxiety for the
welfare of the the Philippians, like the same word is used
positively to be like this positive concern and worry about
a people that you care deeply for, right?
And your, your desire for them to experience life and fullness
of life and to not live into sin patterns and habits that are
destroying them. And so there's a, there's
actually a positive anxiety in the New Testament.
So that's, that's number one. And then #2 I think it's, it's
not just this general, it's did Jesus not saying this will cure
all of your anxiety about everything all the time.
And it's not a physiological kind of anxiety cause like
anxiety is, is generally just a response a, you know, to stimuli
that we don't like or that is, you know, sometimes it can be
positive, sometimes negative. Yeah.
And and so like telling, telling someone with a generalized
anxiety, don't be anxious is like, you know, when you tell,
you know, when you tell someone you know, like oht just like
don't worry about it. Like don't like, yeah, like just
don't stress about it. It's like, well, I can't.
I can't help it. Yeah, exactly.
So, you know, I think if you're out there wrestling with with
anxiety, it's, it's you need to figure out the root cause.
And that's going to happen, I think with pastors, I think it's
going to happen with therapists and with friends, like deep,
meaningful friendships, people who know you and who have known
you for a long time and know you in a very meaningful and
significant way. Like there are lots of routes to
to uncovering like the root causes of anxiety for sure.
I think for a lot of people, root cause of anxiety is
actually what she is talking about though, which is safety
and security. Yeah, yeah.
That's a core longing that human beings have.
Now you might have issue with safety and security because you
didn't receive it as a child, which is a whole lot different
of a conversation to have. Then if you have safety and
security issues that are, you know, primarily related around
money and, and things like the money and things is actually
just, I think a, an outpouring of the like craving after safety
and security, the root cause of your safety and security stuff.
That's what you got to uncover. And so at any rate, I think safe
to say, you know, anxiety can actually be positive in the New
Testament. And Jesus isn't speaking against
all anxiety for all time. He's speaking against a very
specific anxiety. So credit goes on, and he says
this. Here the issue is preoccupation
with material things. And then he says everyone, of
course protests that he or she only wants enough.
But here's what I want people to hear.
But no one knows how much is enough until one has too much.
Hmm. So that so I, I texted that to
to you and to Allison. And I think the response, one of
the responses that came back was literally like, so is there ever
an quote enough or as soon as you have enough, do you really
have too much? To which I responded, I want it
to be the former. I want it to be that no, there
really isn't enough that you can discover and figure out.
Which tells me it's the latter. Yeah, that really like what I
want. I want for there to be an quote
enough that I can attain and feel comfortably, which tells me
that as soon as you have too much, it really actually or as
soon as you have quote enough, it really is too much So, so
it's like it's a luxury to be able to say I have enough.
So, so if you're asking the question, that might be a sign
in and of itself, like, yeah. I think if you can answer the
question, yes, I have enough that that is the answer right?
That maybe like. So here's here's what I have
come to about this, because I think it's actually just
semantics. I think it entirely comes down
to who we allow to define our enough.
So if I get to be the one who defines what is enough for me,
then right away, too much, right?
Probably too much. I'm going to err on the side of
too much. And I know that to be true.
And I think people, if you like, really sit with your own
thoughts and wants, you people realize like, yeah, I I fall
into that category. Like, if I get to be the one to
determine what is enough for me, I'm always going to air on the
side of too much. Now, I know that there are
exceptions to this, right? And I know that there are people
like, well, what about, like, what about Mother Teresa?
Or what about, like, what about, you know, these people who have
given up what looks like an entirely worldly material
possession, tantalized like, yes, like there are always gonna
be outliers and exceptions. But I think it's.
Probably not you though. No, but it's not me, OK?
I'm not the exception. I am not the exception, right?
So if I get to be the one to define enough, then I think I'm
already going to start from a selfish standpoint.
I think that's just the nature of of humanity and the nature of
sin and depravity. Like, I think we tip in that
direction. So do I want to do better?
Yes, absolutely. Right.
Do I want to shame people for also being a little bit selfish?
No, absolutely not. Like I think we all want to be
better. Yeah, and do better.
And we're not horrible, terrible people for having this selfish
bent. We're human.
So the the question in my mind becomes who is defining what is
enough? And this is where our
conversation over preaching prep went, I think in a pretty cool
direction. And I'm curious to like, yeah,
flesh this out in longer conversations, but what would it
look like? And I would just say this and
and we pulled this idea from John Mark Comer's book,
Practicing the Way. So he talks about how a group of
families have gotten together. And if any one of the families
is going to make a purchase over a certain amount of money, like
over a certain dollar amount, they've got to talk to, they've
got to actually submit it to the families, the other families.
Which some people in our case. So like I, I loved where our
discussion went with that. And by the end I was like,
that's, that's really cool. That seems very counter
countercultural in the right way of like, Hey, we're, we're not
going to feed the machine. We're gonna actually be in
dialogue in, in community, in harmonization with our with our
decisions. Yeah.
But man, there is such a my, my initial reaction, and I think
for probably a lot of people, it's gonna be like that feels so
intrusive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's, it's my private life. Yeah, yeah.
This whole idea though, and this is not the time for this
conversation, this whole idea of like a public and private life
has gotten us into a tremendous amount of trouble.
So much. Yeah, right.
Like the privatization or like the individualization even of
the household, like I'll say that.
So like, I think we live in this rampant age of individualism and
we're hurting because of it. And that we see that in
individual, like in literally like the single person.
Yeah. But we also see it in terms of
family and households. Then it becomes an individual
family unit, like an individual like.
So a couple who's married or a couple who's married with kids,
like you still become a singular unit of whatever that unit is.
If you're in if you're a solo person, you are a singular unit
of solo personhood of people, right?
If you are a married couple, you for a single like singular unit
of married couples. If you are a family with kids,
like you are a singular unit of family with kids.
So we view this like ethics and morality through the lens
naturally right now of individualism, which is, I
think, incredibly harmful in the long run.
So again, that all I'm going to say on, on that right now,
Connie and I have this baby version of it, which now feels
entirely way too safe. So we have like, and it has a it
has a, a stupid name, but it's like a marital allowance, right?
And so a friend of ours in seminary, his, his dad, his
actually his mom and dad together with another couple
wrote this like marriage prep book.
And so it's it's this great two parter like series.
So there's a book that's designed for the husband and
then there's a book that's designed for the wife and they
work that cooperatively, these two couples on these books.
And so it's called the most important year me in a man's
life and then the most important year in a woman's life.
And it's the, it's the engagement year leading up to
the marriage. And then the first year of
marriage is kind of the, you know, the, the timeline, but
they suggested it in that book. And so that's one of the books
that Connie and I worked through when we were engaged.
The idea is, and it's not rocket science, there's a fixed amount
of money that I can spend without asking Connie.
And there's a fixed amount of money that Connie can spend
without asking me. And it gives freedom.
Like it's one of those, it's a beautiful example of how
guardrails good freedom. Yeah.
So I know that if a if a purchase is under a certain
amount, I can make it. It might be a dumb purchase at
the end of the day. Yeah, but it's not going to
breach that. Like, how are we managing money
together as a couple? Like I can't go out and spend
$700.00 on something that's not the benchmark.
Like it's a lot lower than that. You know, there were times in
our in our in our lives when it was like 20 bucks.
And then there was a time when it was 50 bucks.
And then there's a time when it's 100 bucks and there's a
time when it's 200 bucks. And you can see even in that the
creep of the frog in the boiling pot.
Yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, I think it's
that level of commitment. So that's between spouses to
say, hey, we're not gonna do this.
Like in order to manage money together.
Well, we're gonna commit these things to each other.
It's that, but on steroids where like households, families, like
if anything's going to cost them over.
And I think for John Mark Comer, I think what he talks about is
$1000. So I'm like, shoot, five years
ago, you couldn't buy like a big TV without talking to somebody
about it. But here's the beauty of it is
like it allows just to pull it all the way back to the
beginning. It allows for somebody else to
input on your own definition of enough.
So if you and I like if, if Connie and I and you and Lindsey
were to do this and you can bleep out your wife's name if
you wanna bleep it out in the podcast because my wife's name
is Lindsey. Right.
Yeah, so fair. So if the four of us were to
commit to do this, let's say, yeah, that allows and it
incurred what it what it. Well, actually what it limits is
it limits Connie and I from defining what is enough for us.
And they do it like for, for, you know, for like income,
salary givings. Like what would it look like for
the two of us to commit our budget like at 20 in 2026 to
say, OK, Justin and Lindsey, here's our here's our household
budget. Here's how much we're gonna
spend on groceries. Like the percentage, here's how
much we're gonna spend on travel.
The percentage here's how much we're gonna spend on on
entertainment. The percentage here's what we're
spending on like cell phone and Internet and things.
Anyways, here are all our percentages like how does this
look to pray about? That yeah, yeah.
Like is this? Reasonable.
Yeah, Yeah. Is this acceptable?
Is are we living inside our means or outside our means?
Are we like, have we properly defined what enough actually is
for us? Like have we allotted enough for
our kids and their expenses? Have we allotted enough for
food? Have we allotted enough for
housing and, and have we allotted too much in areas that
are unnecessary? So I, I think like that's a,
that's a terrifying thing because a, it means that we
actually have to have that much work done and which, you know,
isn't always the case in households.
And but then be to, to be able to say, OK, you take it and go
like with a pen, just cut stuff out that doesn't need to be in
here. Like that terrifies.
I'm getting stressed thinking about.
It but that's the level like I anyways.
I think that's an extreme and I don't want to say and extreme as
and you shouldn't do it. I think that would be a radical
thing to do and actually would be really healthy to do and it
it I think the challenge becomes how do you incorporate things
like that slowly like that would be an all out all in kind of
life changing thing and maybe somebody out there decides to do
that. Fantastic.
I think probably the first step or earlier steps are even like
within your marriage and household.
Yeah, maybe even about certain purchases to say, hey, you know,
help us make these decisions. They the, the, the.
And this is the last thing I'll say.
The main thing is I think we will always struggle if we are
the ones to define for ourselves what is enough.
That's you have to let somebody else's critique your enough.
And I think that's one of the. Things as as you were talking, I
started thinking about like how we function as a church in this
way like there's lots of freedom and flexibility within our, you
know, annual budget. But at the end of the day, that
the budget is still a community effort in many ways.
Right there we get we get volunteer committees that we are
submitting budgets and then we vote on the budget when we have
our annual general meeting. And there are there's a time for
questions. And sometimes those questions
are pointed questions about why we're spending money on XYZ.
And it's like sometimes it's uncomfortable and sometimes
it's, it's, you know, yeah, it can be a little, it can feel a
little bit intrusive. Like, no, that's I we, I
budgeted that for my ministry and I want that for my ministry,
you know, and, you know, like churches are not immune from
these conversations as well. And, and I think that it would
be easy to look at, you know, at Church of our size and and type
as as being pretty modest. And in many ways we are, right.
But that doesn't mean that we are not susceptible, right?
Yeah. I think the other thing that
I've found. Encouraging over my years in
ministry is that most often when somebody arises to point out
issues with the budget, it's, it's in the direction of being
more generous. Yeah.
Like, yeah, that's when when the hardest questions come up, it's
often, why are we spending this amount of money on what looks
like ourselves? And how can we be spending more
money on mission and external resourcing and programs?
Like, you know, I think very often that's the discernment of
a group of people is how do we be more generous?
Yeah, actually in recent years I recall.
That one of there was one AGM we had where the one of the
questions was really about like, hey, why have we slashed our
youth ministry budget? We should be pouring more into
our youth. And there was a very practical
reason why the budget was different from one year to the
next. But it was like it was, it was a
valuable question to ask. Yeah.
You know, so like, that was helpful.
That was good. Yeah.
Help us understand the heart behind.
The numbers, yeah. And and I think the more we can
do that as individuals and as families, households, the better
off will be as well. So yeah, that's a daunting
challenge though. Like it's a big change, yeah.
So maybe. Like again, and the answer to
the question what is enough is is never going to be a, you
know, a hard and fast, you know, like here's here's the the one
second or one minute summary of of the answer.
But I but I think that you've you've tapped into the the heart
behind it by saying like this is something that we can't answer
for ourselves, that we were not going to be objective enough.
Yeah, but but I think maybe like, and this could be a little
more rapid fire, but like, what are some of the warning signs
that we are veering into territory that could be
described as too much? Maybe said another way, what are
the warning signs that I am living more like the man in
Jesus parable? You know, like that, you see
that the the kind of the posture of that man and say, am I
mirroring that, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So. I think one of the things that I
find, and again, we didn't go down this this in this direction
on the sermon, is the fact that he is literally talking about
destroying something that he has to replace it with something
that is the same but bigger. Yeah, so that's, you know, for
for a church also like that's a good don't need to go down this
rabbit, this rabbit trail right now, but that's a that's a good
metric. Like so are you are you buying
or are you purchasing? Are you accumulating?
Are you looking for things that are simply replacing things that
you already have? Like so I think that's that's
stupid bag analogy actually worked in this way.
Yeah, because, you know, it's a perfect example of the fact that
I have a perfectly good backpack that carries the things I need
for work, like a laptop and a water bottle and some books.
I don't need a different style bag to do the same task.
So that for me is a is a pretty good starting point to to
uncover what is a need versus a want.
Yeah, you might want something and you might be able to justify
it and rationalize the purchase, but is it a want or a need?
So name things that are needs needs and name things that are
wants. Wants.
That's a great thing. If you're trying to trick
yourself into calling a want a need, that's a good indication.
Yeah. OK, so that's number one.
Number two, I look at the amount of time I spend dwelling on
something. So like this is a, this is a, I
think in the realm of like attention and affection.
So where your attention is, your affection follows.
And so I need to think for myself about how much time now
I'm going to make good decisions.
If I'm going to make a decision, I want to make a good wise
decision. If you're making a big purchase,
you want to. Research it and make sure you're
making the most informed, you know?
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But.
But if I'm spending an inordinate, inordinate amount of
time on wants, that's also another red flag.
So, you know, for me for a while, like I, I was in
photography and I worked as a photographer for two years while
I was in school. And so, you know, I liked buying
camera gear and, and taking good photos and chasing photos, even
like kind of planning them out. But it, there came a time in, in
our life where I needed to sit down and realize, yeah, I got,
I've got a little bit too much money invested in these things.
And we were selling our house at the time and I sold all my gear.
I sold it all. And the amount of mental energy
that that freed up in terms of like, just like thinking about
things that aren't needs was, was pretty cool to see.
So yeah, look at how much time, where's my attention going?
How much time am I spending dwelling on something and
thinking about it? And if it's not, if it's not a
need, like if if I'm spending too much time, like I said on
wants, that's that's a pretty good indicator.
So that's number two. And then #3 I think you've got
to have somebody in your life who you can run these things
past and who will give you a very quick, again, rapid fire
answer. Yes, pursue that.
No, don't right. For me, that's my wife like it.
And it I think for me it like it has to be so I know if I'm
looking at a purchase and I say to her, hey, I'm, I'm
considering this thing. And she says, yeah, you should
look into it. That for me is a green flag.
Like that's like green light. Go for it.
Would you say Connie is? More would you say she is more
apprehensive on spending like like because you could just go
knowing that they're gonna confirm your bias yeah no yeah
I. Yes, I think so.
I think she's also. I know that she'll say no.
That's stupid. Yeah, Yeah.
Like Lindsey's the same way for me, right?
And I think that, you know, we we've we've worked toward
understanding one another's habits and patterns over our
almost 17 years of marriage. But still, I mean, I think
regardless, it's, it is an ongoing conversation and
sometimes an ongoing tension to to sort of understand one
another and how you approach purchasing and money and wants
and needs. Yeah.
So I think. To the other thing is that you,
you need that person in your life to be able to say to you
not only about like an acute purchase, but just in general,
you're spending too much time thinking about these things.
Yeah. So, like, I think you could, you
could walk away from this and actually in some ways covet this
whole conversation, like in, in a way that's unhealthy, right?
So you go, OK, I'm gonna become the best, a spender, non spender
that I can be. Like you can actually idolize
this whole process. Like you can turn into like a
minimalist. And it actually like wreck your
life. Well, this is the thing I think
it can. Become, I think minimalism is
good. I think there is like a cult of
minimalism that idealizes the lack of stuff as really
ultimately the same thing, right?
So you need somebody who can say you're still prioritizing the
wrong thing. Yeah, whether it's to access or
to little like or, or to Yeah. So I think that those are the
three things that I like just at least off the top of my head
want to look for. I think if I were to add a
fourth in there and you want to get a little bit gutsy, print
off all of your bakes bank statements for three months and
actually go through and look at what you're spending your money
on. And I think that's going to
reveal to where you know where, where things are.
There's, there are, there are subscriptions that you can buy
now whose entire purpose or purpose is to cancel you from
your subscriptions. Yeah.
Like you can literally pay a monthly fee so that an app goes
through your banking and and your e-mail and unsubscribes you
from paid subscriptions that you're not using.
And it's ostensibly. Saving you money, but you're
you're spending money to save that money of things that you
should just remember to cancel anyway.
Mind blowing to me. How we've created this
environment where like we don't even know what we're saying.
So yeah, yeah, those are four. And if you know, if you were to
try one, even one of those four, I think you're gonna find a
health on the other side. There might be some conflict
along the way, but you're gonna find some health on the other
side of it. And it's gonna start to reveal
where your heart is. And then, OK, last thing that I
want to say because I want to get this out.
I think that ultimately follower of Jesus, you need to have a
proper, true, good, right understanding of where you are.
Like you need to understand where you are accurately.
And then you need to commit that to Jesus and actually take that
to a place of prayer and say and allow God to convict you on it,
right? Allow a present it to God and
say, is this like, is this what you have for me?
Is this right MI in line with your Kingdom and what you're
doing? And is this, And I think again,
like I said, the last thing now probably too many times, if
you're not willing to do that, that right there is your answer.
Anything that you're not willing to say.
Here's what I'm struggling with. God, like that, That's the
thing. That is the thing.
Yeah. And so it's not to say you're
gonna struggle. It's not to say that you're not
gonna have things that that you're working through and that
are hard and progress is not linear.
You're gonna go up, go down. But as soon as you become
unwilling to actually even say to God, who knows the thing
already. God, this is the thing, you
know, I think that again, that's your answer of of where you're
at. So again, not to shame and not
to guilt. That's not what Jesus is doing.
But I think what I would say is that the more I have found more
freedom and less anxiety in committing finances to God
together with my wife and in community than I have found in
what would be, quote, having more than enough.
That's that's a great way to to look at it.
And I think it encompasses, you know, because one of the
questions I have that we didn't really get to, but I think it
kind of answers it there is when we look at needs versus wants
and and obviously wants our arguably outside of the the
barrier of enough right there, they are beyond enough, right?
But I mean, like, you know, like everyone has hobbies and things
like just spend money on and things like that, right?
But but I think that when we when we can ask that question of
just saying, like, am I, am I able to open handedly submit
this to God? Yeah.
That that sort of solves it for me.
You know, not that it, it's going to be an ongoing tension
for the rest of our lives, but it solves the the answer of
like, how do I, how do I approach my my wants and my
hobbies and things like that? Right.
So that's, that was that's that's helpful.
Yeah, like God's. Desires for you to experience an
abundant life. We just need to let God define
what abundance looks like. Hmm.
Right. But life to the full actually
means, Yeah, you know, it. It's gonna include some things
that you don't. Yes, technically by the letter
of the law, need to survive. Uh, but man, like what those,
what those things contribute in terms of life and flourishing of
life for you and those around you is, is warrant enough for
the thing. So again, just allow other
people and allow God to be the one to define those things, and
you're already going to be light years ahead of where you were.
That's good. Well, why don't we close out
there? And until next time, we hope you
have a great week. And we hope that this passage
and this conversation is encouraging you to have
conversations with loved ones and friends and family as we
wrestle out how best to do this. Have a great week.