Hey friends, welcome to another episode of our podcast here at
KPC. We are thrilled to have you and
glad that you may be listening wherever you are into your week.
It is. It's a Wednesday for us, so a
little bit later in the week, we're getting ready for our
community Bible study. Week 3 of Bible study happening
tonight. So listen, yeah, the eager ones
may listen to this before Community Bible study tonight.
Not likely at this point in our day.
Will it be published before Community?
Bible study behind officially now, but that's OK.
It was a long weekend here in Canada, and we took Monday off.
We did Nice. Yeah.
We did two yeah, assemble various outdoor cooking utensils
and throw out various backs. It was a good long weekend.
We are hopping into a conversation on Luke chapter 6,
which will surprise nobody who's been following.
We've been in Luke 6 now for I can't remember how many weeks
this is. I think this is actually just
week 3 of Luke 6, but six verse 27 to 36, which is in many
Bibles titled subtitled Loving your enemies or Love for
enemies. And Justin, I love the way that
you started off Sunday after I got my kids dropped off
frantically to kids own like Sunday school and then made it
back into the sanctuary. I think I caught just that that
one line, He said. Something along the lines of
like this might be the easiest passage to intellectually
understand, but the hardest passage in the Bible to actually
do the thing. It's kind of like it's Sunday
school 101, right? You know, like what do you what
do you learn when you are like first learning is like love,
love everybody, right and, and that everybody period, right.
And and obviously enemies and we'll unpack a little bit more
of that, but like that are included in that.
Yeah. So do you wanna read it quickly?
It's not long. And then, yeah, we can hop into
some questions. Sure.
So Luke 627 to 36 But to you who are listening I say, love your
enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse
you, pray for those who mistreat you.
If someone slaps you on the cheek, turn to them the other.
Also, if someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt
from them. Give to everyone who asks you,
and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back
due to others as you would have them do to you.
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?
Even sinners do that. Do love those who love them?
And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is
that to you? Even sinners do that.
And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what
credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners
expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good
to them, Lend to them without expecting.
Get to get anything back. Then your reward will be great,
and you will be children of the Most High, because He is kind to
the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father
is merciful. Let's like, I mean, it's a
powerful verse or series of verses.
Like you said. I think it's fairly easy to
understand what Jesus is saying. Really hard to walk out.
Yeah, really hard to actually do.
And I'm not going to lie, like I think part of it is because he
starts off with the hardest one. Love your enemies.
Yeah, do good to those who hate you.
In some it it's really interesting that how different
versions translate that opening line.
But to you who are listening, I say, because some of the
translations read something along the lines of actually more
literally like listen to you, I say, or to you I say listen,
love your enemies. It's almost like it's almost
like a command. The listen, you know he he it's
it's though it is like those who are hearing but.
Really wants us to hear this. Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's absolutely. He's like, guys, if you were
nodding off a little bit, like, come on, listen.
Pay attention, Pay attention. And you know, the word there
does have a lot to do with hearing, but the implication of
it isn't just the act of hearing.
And I think like any parent is gonna be sitting there going,
huh, I know this difference. I know what's about to come out
of that guy's mouth before I've even said it.
It's not words going into my ears and my knowing them.
It is this. It is this hearing to comprehend
or comprehending by hearing, by listening.
There's an intentional act here required Jesus saying sit up,
pay attention, listen, and then comprehend what I'm telling you
to do and, and go and do it. So there's a lot of even just
wrapped up there, but I thought it might be helpful for us to
start off with just some quick recap from Sunday.
You used 3 words fairly regularly through the sermon
that would be helpful for us to just redefine.
And the first is, is love. But in this context, it's agape
love, it's divine God toward humanity love.
It's very specific and I think you called it self sacrificial
and had another. So let's redefine that.
And then also grace and mercy because I really appreciated how
you pointed out that credit there.
Like what credit is that to you is actually Keras?
Like it's the Greek word for grace.
What grace is it to you or how are you ungracious?
You know, if everybody does that, then there's no grace
there. You know, is, is essentially, I
think what you what you brought to light for everybody, which is
is helpful. So love agape, love, grace and
mercy. Hmm, Yeah, love.
I think the, the biggest take away that I could say is, is
that the word love, the word agape here, it does not require
emotion in the way that we would consider, you know, when I say I
love my, my wife, there is an implied degree of emotion.
When I say I love my, my daughter, there is an implied
degree of emotion there. Agape love does not require that
it is, I think I said this, it's an act of the will.
And and so we have to separate what our modern Western
understanding of love is for us to actually understand what
Jesus is saying here. Yeah, that's where it is.
You know, I think it's, it's clear what Jesus is saying, but
there are some nuances that make help our understanding and
that's one of them. It, it's and I it's, it's
freeing. It's it is freeing that we are
not like, OK, great. I don't have to have warm
fuzzies toward a dictator, you know, in my call to love
everyone, including those who hate me or are actively seeking
to harm me in some way. I, I don't need to have some
sort of like, you know, emotional response other than
hey, I, I, I love you because God calls me to you.
It is the right thing to do. I, I and I will seek good for
you regardless of how you treat me.
You know that is an act of the will, not an emotion.
Act of will, I think is a really helpful way.
Like there's a whole generation of us who maybe grew up on DC.
Talk by love is a verb and was my.
Very first cassette. As my very first, this is like
CD that I bought. Yeah, see.
That's where like, you're a couple years younger than me, so
yeah. Yeah.
There's this CD I think I. Still have that CD I lost.
It and then bought it again. And still have it I.
Don't. No, sadly.
Twice over me, yeah. Twice.
But I think so here, here's what I really appreciate about your
definition. I don't need to convince myself
to feel a certain way about somebody to accomplish what
Jesus is commanding us to accomplish here.
He's not saying feel differently about that person who harms you,
right? And it like it feels like you
betray your emotions and you betray yourself in some way,
your experience, all of what you're feeling, right?
As you know, as helpful and unhelpful as emotions can be,
you know they are both. Yes, but but you know what Jesus
is not saying here is feel differently about somebody.
He's saying act differently towards someone.
Yes, and one. Is not just simply not
attainable in some scenarios and the other is.
And you can't, it's another thing where you can't just like
fake it till you make it. It's not, it's not that either.
It's not like, well, if I just act on this, I will eventually
have some affection. No, that that might never
happen. When you're dealing with
difficult people, the expectation is not that I will
eventually feel warmly toward them.
That is not what we're talking about here.
Yeah. Yeah.
So. And we're going to come back to
that because I think you rightly, you pointed out just
the the nuance and difficulty of enemy and who we read in as
enemy. And what does this mean for
somebody who has been abused with their abuser?
And there are some lines that I think the Christian Church have
like fuzzed and crossed. And, you know, you were very
crystal clear, like this is not in any way Jesus saying remain
in a in an abusive relationship and turn the other cheek to
physical abuse and violence. Like he's being very clear here.
This is not that. And you were clear on Sunday
with that, which I appreciate. And come back to all that by way
of some conversation around how to proceed in more difficult
scenarios and circumstances. But give us grace and mercy and
then we'll hop into the other questions.
Yeah. So, so grace when he's, when
he's using that word grace, what credit is that to you?
What grace is that to you? How are you being gracious?
How are you offering, extending a gift?
Because grace can also be understood as a gift.
It is it is something that you are an unmerited gift that that
they are recipients of. And I think in this context, you
could you could look at, you know, say for instance, I
brought you a gift. I mean, maybe you deserved it,
maybe you didn't. Somebody.
Somebody brought us a gift this morning.
Yeah, those little cookies, yeah.
Exactly. Yeah, it was a wonderful.
It's delightful. Yeah, we might.
Not deserve it. We might.
Not have deserved it, but you know, maybe maybe we earned it
in some way. Maybe, you know, maybe we're
like, anyway, the the point that Jesus is making here is that
when you do this, you need to be able to do it for people that
definitely didn't earn it, because otherwise it's, it's not
grace. It's not, it's it.
This is not a a gift. This is not offering something
that is of meaning or value. If if they're just people that
are your, are your peers, your equals, people that you are on
good footing with, It feels a little bit, it's not selfless.
It's not selfless if, if we are reciprocating gifts for one
another, you know, if we have an arrangement that you know, you
buy me a slice of pizza this week and I buy you a slice of
pizza next week, it's not really a gift.
No, no, no. And there's like, it's purely
transactional. Yeah.
This is like the teaching team we were talking about a couple
different examples. So this is like the team who
gets together ahead of the community Bible study talk
through the passage. What are we hoping for people to
move through questions that we're anticipating, all that
kind of stuff. And then a few of those people
are the ones leading it on Wednesday night, just in case
you're flying in blind on what some of these words mean.
There. There are these shows, right
where like The Big Bang Theory and Sheldon Cooper just not
being able to receive a gift. And he's like, he's like, I
can't. He just overly gives back
because he's it's gotta be equal for this guy.
Or in New Girl where two of the characters go bezerk because one
gives the other a cookie and he's like, yeah, you, you gave
me a cookie. I give you the cookie back.
We're even like we're equal. I don't know how to how our
friendship can't progress unless you unless you take this cookie
back. And like, that's not that's not
what what grace is pointing us toward.
I like talking about grace as unmerited favor.
Hmm. So it is it's it's unmerited and
it's favor. It is something added to giving
toward graciousness. It's a gift.
It's Yeah. OK.
And mercy versus. Mercy, which is not receiving
and you, you phrase this better than I did, but let me just try
to work this out a little bit because it's always helpful to
to work in a real time. Mercy is, is sort of the
negation of, of grace is sort of the negative version of that
there where we ought to receive something usually like a
punishment and we do not receive it.
It it has been. So in the case of, you know,
like a judge and you're in a courtroom scenario.
Just The thing is, the easiest to think about is they're about
to pronounce a judgment because you did something wrong that you
ought that you ought not have done.
And instead of punishing, the punishment is withdrawn.
You know that's a mercy, right? Yep.
They'll look at something in your life, say like, well, they
haven't. They had a rough upbringing and
they're they're doing hard work to get themselves in good order.
So I'm going to extend mercy to you.
If I get a speeding ticket or if I'm, if I get pulled over
speeding or if I blow through a red light and the cop comes up
and he's like, listen, like I got you on camera.
Like, yeah, you're doing 100 and the speed limit is 80 or you
went through the light. It was red.
It wasn't yellow, no matter how many times you think you saw it
like it was red. And instead of ticket you're
given a warning like that's mercy.
That's what mercy is. It is withholding punishment
where punishment was due. Can I?
Confess something? Yeah, one time I got pulled
over. It's like 10 years ago and I was
right at the end of like, it had a series of, let's say less than
stellar driving activity and, and I was almost at the point of
like, I would have almost lost my license.
Oh. No, I.
I haven't had a ticket in over 10 years so this.
Is where we're gonna go back a little ways.
Disclaimer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK. Younger, more reckless years.
I could not get a ticket. So I I literally begged the
officer for mercy. Like I used the word can you
please have mercy? Yeah, like I'm, I'm trying to
write this shit, but this isn't gonna help me.
This is this is the tipping me in the other direction.
Yeah. And.
He he knocked it down to just like the kind of 15 / 15, no.
Points. No point he had.
Mercy he had. Mercy.
Yeah, still, you know, digging me 50 bucks, you know, but had
mercy. Yeah, withholding something that
is warranted, right, That is unreserved.
It I deserve that. I was definitely driving 30
over. Yeah, yeah.
So like Grace is getting something that you don't
deserve, and we're talking like a positive in a positive way.
Receive Receiving it as a gift, given that you don't deserve
mercy is withholding A punishment that you would
deserve or do deserve. And in the context of this
passage, we are talking about people that hate us.
Therefore it's very easy to say, well, you don't deserve my agape
love. You don't.
You're not deserving of me to, to lend to you to, to extend you
grace, to extend you mercy. And, and so it, it's very
practical here. And, and God in the end is
driving home the point. OK, I, I've been gracious to
you. I've given you gifts that you
didn't deserve. I've been merciful.
I haven't done the thing to you that that you, you do deserve.
So do the same. You know, you have been, and I
think that this is strong language that I think I could
back this up, that, you know, there have been times where
people are enemies of God in some way.
And yet God extends grace and God extends mercy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you read a verse like
while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Grace, mercy, that's. That did both of the things
right. Yeah.
And so, yeah, God says, and you put this right, they like go and
live differently because of because of what you've received.
Like, yeah, yeah. It really, Yeah.
It's hard to describe in words. I try to draw it out and it's
still, it's hard to, you know, picture, but it takes the
transactional between like human to human and puts all of all of
the burden of the transaction on God.
So the way I treat you is not based on the way you treat me.
The way I treat you is based on the way God has treated me.
Yes. Yeah, right.
And the way you treat me is not based on what I do to you.
It's based on what God has given you.
And you know, like, I think like human beings, like we, we like
transaction, like we like, like the simplicity of it.
And sometimes I find that's just helpful.
Like it, it, it shifts it from this horizontal person to person
and it puts all of the burden on God.
So God's been the one who's given grace and mercy.
He has been kind and loving and that out of that storehouse that
we're called to act toward the other.
That's great. Hmm.
That's good. So in that vein, ish, that vein
adjacent, we've been talking around this idea of loving
enemy. You asked on Sunday and had us
thinking through like, who is my enemy?
And I wanted to push that a little further.
And, um, I think that's a good question to ask.
I wonder, can there also be, do you think, a danger in US maybe
being a little bit too zealous to name enemies?
Is there something there that maybe we like to grab on to as
human beings? How do we navigate that tension?
Jesus saying very clearly, like, love your enemy.
The implication is you have enemies.
There's other questions like does he mean enemy to you
exclusively or is this still is this A tag on those who hate you
and persecute you because of the Son of man like those who are
you are your enemy because of Jesus ask.
That question, didn't we? Yeah.
So like, is this just my enemy or is this someone who's an
enemy toward me because of actually because of what Jesus
has done all of that. But so do you think we can jump
to naming enemies too quickly? And how can we resist that a
little bit? OK, so I think Christians, not
all Christians, but some Christians can jump to having a
persecution complex. And as I said on Sunday, there
are Christians around the world who are facing genuine threat of
imprisonment for for even just gathering to worship and to read
the Scripture and to sing together.
You know, that's a very real thing, but.
Lots of contacts where that is not the case.
And yet Christians and any potential removal of freedom or
any sort of even perceived removal of freedom of any kind
or you know, just a realignment with a waning Western
Christianity, I will cry persecution.
Hmm. I say we not me personally I I
try my best to not do that. So I do think some Christians
can jump to using the word enemy too quickly.
Hmm, I think I asked you the opposite.
Hmm. So I am very hesitant, almost
perhaps to a detriment. I am almost hesitant to use the
word. I don't think the word in our
modern vernacular. I don't think it represents what
what Jesus is intending here. Hmm.
The problem is again, we don't have a good word, one word that
encapsulates what Jesus is saying, which I believe to be
when Jesus says love your enemies, I said they would have
heard it as love your Roman occupiers.
Maybe if you were in a particular sect of Judaism, it
would have been against other other sects within Judaism.
Maybe skip ahead of the 100 a few 100 years and maybe there it
would be for Christians and or Jews to love one another because
they were hateful toward one another, Christians and Muslims,
Jews and Muslims, right, so on and so forth.
Go go through history. You can name lots of enemies to
one another, and here we are in North America.
I don't have a great category for that.
I do have a great category for people who seem to be hateful
toward me, toward people who seek to harm me in some way.
Hmm. Toward people who are actively
seeking to bring the work of the church down or even the work of
a particular church down to yeah, like so I think there
there are many ways in which we could understand enemy in a
modern context, but to the point where for most contexts that we
encounter, at least here in the West, I don't know that enemy is
the best word because of the connotation that makes sense.
Yeah, No, I think that's helpful.
Like when I so my default is to look up definitions of all these
words out of concordances and what do?
You got. Yeah, I, I mean a lot.
I mean, there's a lot. And some of some of the
definition doesn't help and some does help because you know, when
I'm looking at like the Greek language across being the word
for enemy here, it just says properly an enemy.
But I'm like so OK, great, fine still.
But then it starts to break it down.
Somebody openly hostile, so openly hostile towards me.
Irreconcilable hostility. Right Bent on inflicting arm.
Yeah. And that one I go, OK, now it
starts to make sense because that I think we do.
You're right. We do have categories for people
who just seem, for whatever reason, bent on on causing harm.
Yeah. And you know, that harm could be
physical. It could be emotional,
psychological, spiritual. There's a lot of different ways
in which we now understand harm. Harm can be a little nebulous in
and of itself. For sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I think that's that's the piece where where Jesus says no
love, love your enemies, and then he almost clarifies it.
Prey do good for those who hate you, bless those who curse you
and pray for those who mistreat you and so he's he's almost
saying love your enemies. What do I mean by that?
Here's. Some examples do.
Yeah, Do good to those who hate you.
Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who mistreat you.
And so he's giving. It's like he's giving the
disciples and those early followers trying to live life
inside the Kingdom. He's giving them some really
fast answers to questions. Be like, well, who's my enemy?
No, stop it. If somebody hates you, do good
to them. Right.
OK, well, what about like, if they curse me?
Well, bless them, right? What is the if if to to curse,
to speak ill of somebody who says speak well of them?
Yes, like so he's he's literally turning all of these things.
So to somebody who hates you, do good, like fill the void that is
the evil or the darkness with what is good and light and full
of the Kingdom. So now we've got some really
concrete things. Pray for those who mistreat you.
And I think prayer in that moment, like we could be praying
for them, maybe that God would change their hearts that God
would, that that God would change the trajectory of their
life in some way. Hmm.
But there's also like an effectiveness in praying because
of what it does for me, right? That if I am saying God, I want
to pray for this person that is hurting me, that is abusing me,
It it's it's about God, we pray transforming them, but also it's
gonna transform me and my heart toward that person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So continuing on through, we've
got this, these commands give to everybody who asks, but if
somebody takes what belongs to you, don't demand it back due to
others as you would have them do to you.
And then he double s down, right?
Jesus double s down. And it's like, if you love those
who love you, what credit does that to you?
Like, who cares? Even sinners do that.
Like, come on, like how are you any different?
And the implication is you're not.
You're not any different than anybody else if you do this.
Everybody does this. This is like base human
expectation, but we get this line.
I think it's verse yeah, verse 35.
Then your reward will be great and you will be children of the
Most High again. I love how you broke that down.
Your reward will be great. dot dot dot.
In other words, yeah, read it this way.
You will be children of the Most High.
That's the reward. This is proof that you're living
inside the Kingdom. And there's benefit to living
inside the Kingdom. Absolutely there is.
I guess my question is, and I've I along with others, this is,
this is not, you know, just this me.
Um, but through all of chapter 6, is it not just in some way
Christian karma, like we've been wrestling out this tension
between like, do, do what's right?
Yeah, not to get a reward, but you'll also get a reward.
Like don't be like everybody else be like this.
But if you give, you're going to give, you're going to get back.
And we're going to see it again this like tonight at tonight's
Bible study on Wednesday, whenever this is for you.
Today doesn't work on podcasts. I realize that.
But like, as we continue through 6 chapter 6, we're going to see
even more of this. Do good and it will come back.
Good will be done to you. We're going to talk about a
great measure being shaken up and then poured out on your lap.
Like if you do good, you're gonna receive a great measure of
good things. How is it not just Christian
karma? It's OK.
It's a good thought. So and actually someone, now
that you say that someone at my table group actually did say and
there's someone who they're, you know, I think relatively new to
faith in various ways. They were like this actually,
like this kind of seems like what goes around comes around,
you know? And I was like, oh, like,
that's, that's interesting. That's interesting that that
someone who is less familiar for those of us who have grown up
the church, we probably read this a number of times over the
years. They're less familiar with this.
And they pulled out the Karma card, you know, OK, so where
does it where does it differ in my mind?
There, there is some overlap right there.
I mean, in the same way that the golden rule, as we said it's it
is found it almost codified in every culture people group
across time ever since civilization, that has been some
rule, right? Maybe not an official law, but
it's you know, but the one thing to note is that Jesus is
inversion of it leans positive due to others as you would have
them do to you. A lot of the other ones are more
along the lines of don't do to others what you don't want them
to do to you. Like that's like it's, it's a
little bit more passive and Jesus is more active and
positive. So it's one thing to note.
So the distinguishing feature for me that separates it from
karma has got to be grace and mercy.
There's gotta be grace and mercy in, in that you could claim that
when you know, when bad things are happening to someone, even
to yourself, you know, then it causes us to reflect what have,
what have I done? You know, cause if, if it's, if
it's gone around, it's now come back to me.
And, and I apologize if this is a very rudimentary understanding
of karma. I am not an expert on Eastern
religion. So, but, but I, I, I think that
when we take a, when we take away grace and mercy from the
equation, it kind of is karma that you'll get what you deserve
and and you'll get what you get. In this case, Jesus is saying
even if someone doesn't deserve something, even if someone is
quote UN quote, undeserving of love extended anyway.
Hmm. That that is the way of the
Kingdom and, and in some ways karma is based on fairness, that
it, it feels fair. And I would argue that much of
Jesus's ministry and his his entire life and his death and
resurrection are about what is not fair.
That, that it is not fair that Jesus took that upon himself for
me. It is not fair that I as a, as a
broken, sinful human, get to receive the benefit of that.
Right. Yeah.
And and so that is where karma while there, I think you could
actually draw some other passages from the the rest of
Scripture that have a little little inkling of that, right.
But Jesus kind of blows it up. Yep.
Yeah, the cross kind of interrupts.
I think the cross interrupts the flow of karma as it were, right?
Yeah, Yeah, I think one of the other things that's worth
noting. And again, it's been a minute
since we've spent time studying, since I've spent time studying
Eastern religions. So again, intro very rudimentary
understanding here in what I'm about to say, but karma in most
of the way it's spoken about is toward freedom of suffering.
So the end result or the ultimate result of buildup of
karma is these cycles of birth, rebirth toward freedom, release
from suffering. That's back to me now.
That's. The ultimate goal is to release
your body, your soul, your mind, your spirit from suffering.
And so yeah, like the what goes around comes around is kind of
like colloquial everyday. This is how we understand life.
Like if I do this, you know, yeah, this is going back.
Exactly. Proper understanding of karma
includes this toward an end. And that end is freedom of
suffering. And Jesus actually says no.
The way the way into the Kingdom is by is through suffering.
And you see that even in this passage, there was a number of
commentators, I can't recall which ones off the top of my
head, that highlighted this idea that Jesus is actually calling
us in some ways to suffer here. That there is a that there is a,
a pain of sorts in, in laying down our pride, in laying down
what we think is right and just and saying, I, we'll choose a
better way. I will choose a higher way that
is something that is so difficult to do and it and it's
there's there's suffering and sacrifice in that process and.
That's why it's important that we start with self sacrificial
love. Yes.
Right, that's the understanding of agape love has being one that
is willing to sacrifice of self for the other, which in my mind
is just completely blows up the idea of it being Christian karma
because it can't be that. Yep.
No, I love it. I think that's great.
OK, moving on some of the other questions that we've been we've
been talking around, I think would be good to land on in some
specific ways. So we talked just briefly today,
and you mentioned loving people when life is hard, when
relationships are difficult, when there is even, you know,
degrees of abuse, when you have a dysfunctional, broken
relationship that can't be mended for one reason or
another. What does it begin to look like
to love in those contexts? Yeah.
And, you know, like, let's just double down again on this idea.
Like loving somebody doesn't mean being a doormat.
Yeah, getting walked all over, trampled, putting ourselves in
unsafe situation time and time again.
So help us understand love and boundaries.
OHS, funny you mentioned that, right?
Well, Yep. Where to go OHS there's this
book here I just found on the ground just.
Like that it's. It's called Boundaries.
It's been a minute since I've I've.
I have read that book. Yeah, but Grant put that in my
lap. Right here here.
Here I'm going to prom you for a question talk about this.
No boundaries is kind of the answer in some ways in that it
is not. It is not a requirement for me
to be in regular and direct communication with someone for
me to love them. Hmm.
I have friends who I love that I haven't seen in several years.
You know, one of them called me out of the blue yesterday, which
was kind of a nice little surprise.
Hmm. I was like getting gas and, and
he called me up and I was like, dude, like it's been so good to
hear your voice, you know, but I haven't seen him in like 3
years, you know, I'd like to change that.
But in the same way, you know for people that that are
difficult, people that have been abusive, say you have a like a
narcissistic relative, say you have an abusive relative or
friend or whatever. Sometimes the most loving thing
we can do is have boundaries and, and say I, I love you and I
love you too much to allow this to continue.
Yeah. And I, and I have friends and
family who have, who have made that hard call with, with direct
family members saying I cannot be in a, in a, an active
relationship with you right now. You can still say you love that
person in the same way that again, with agape love, it
doesn't require feelings. It doesn't even require that I
know the person that I can, I can say regarding, you know,
I'll just use the easiest example in the world.
If I lived, you know, if I lived in the 1940s, you know, like to
be able to say I, I have to, God calls me to love Hitler.
Like that's, that's a, you know, obviously a bit of a
stereotypical example, but I think it drives home the point.
I I likely would have never met Hitler had I lived in the 40s.
And yet that does not require me to be in relationship with them
actively. Hmm.
But I think that that's a little bit too obviously I there of an
example like like bring it home again, a little bit more to
family. If I have a family member that
is acting and behaving poorly to me, I don't have to put up with
that. I don't have to be a doormat.
I can be, I can be in whatever level of communication I am
comfortable with, right? That if their presence is
challenging to me or to use more of like a like the clinical word
activating to me, I don't have to do that.
I don't have to be in, in their presence.
I've done that with family myself.
There I had a family member that I did not see for 2-3 years
because I I said I I cannot do this right now.
And that was arguably the most loving thing I could have done
in that moment. Hmm.
So that's what I want to press in on because I think that we
can sometimes, yeah. Like in here's here's the
interesting thing. I think we do this to ourselves
like a very rarely do I hear somebody else say to like a
friend or family member, oh, you have to love that person.
You're a Christian. Like, you know, we do this
ourselves, though we think God calls me to be loving.
So therefore I need to do AB and C.
Inside, I gotta set aside these these awful feelings I'm having
inside. Yeah.
But feelings in this case that I think we should honor, you know,
feelings that are probably there for a reason, just to keep the
peace, right? Or continue to put myself into a
situation where I continue to receive harm.
Yeah, right. Because, well, that's what God
calls me to love this person. So I need to go to that family
dinner every week, or I need to go to that, you know, enter into
the relationship whatever capacity I need to see that
person, etc. And I think the thing that we
all need to wrestle with. Is the reality that, like you
said, sometimes the most loving thing is to establish boundary
because for variety of reasons, but one of them, the not the
least significant is if I, if I and like I, I don't, I'm not
actively in this situation right now.
Like I don't, I don't have this situation in my life.
But if I'm continuing to put myself into a relationship and
invest in a relationship where I'm continuing to be hurt, well,
then what am I also doing? I'm continuing to enable that
person to hurt. And so it's this, it is this
cycle that is only going to have a potential for healing if it's
arrested, that cycle needs to be broken.
So in order for there to be repair in any relationship,
there also needs to be rupture and sometimes boundary is
required. You know, the in in the long
term. Now, I'm I'm not saying that
every single relationship is gonna have this degree of
healing. No, many won't, and that's OK.
Absolutely. But I think what many of us need
to hear is that reality that to continue to put yourself in that
situation is not only doing yourself harm, but it's
continuing to allow somebody else to perpetrate harm.
And sometimes that boundary, like that boundary is good.
Yeah. And sometimes that boundary can
be a wake up call for somebody. Yeah.
And somebody needs, you know, a family member or friend or
somebody they love and think they love and respect and are
actually harming and hurting to say, OK, no more of this.
I'm not going to put myself in this situation.
The onus is now on you to to realize and recognize what
rupture has occurred, like what brokenness has taken place, and
to move into it now. I guess that's like, I, I think
I'm an optimist most of the time.
It's not, you know, it, it, it not everything is going to be
neatly tied up and, and fixed in the end.
But I think, too, I see too many people continuing to put
themselves in harm's way because they think that being actively
engaged in the relationship in exactly the way everybody
expects and wants is the loving thing to do.
Yeah. And what we're saying is it's
not. And I will say I know there's a
story of someone I know who they were in an abusive marriage and
they tried to leave. They tried to, you know, assert
themselves and they went to the persons church.
This is not anywhere in this area.
So it's, you know, this is many years ago, they went to the
church and the church said you need to go back and you need to
submit. Hmm.
And you need to, you know, Yep. Just just endure, you know, and,
and, and so I, I want to say very clearly that that is
antithetical to what Jesus is saying.
And nowhere is that an acceptable thing for a church to
say or do. Yep.
Unlike physically reacting, Yeah, I'm physically because I
have family who went through that exact not, Yeah, like
extended family who went through that exact same scenario and who
have all walked away from the church because of that exact
reality. And like, it breaks my heart and
it also makes me really angry and so.
Angry. And I said that to the person.
I said, like, I am so angry on your behalf that that church
betrayed in that way. Yeah, you know, And that was
like a good moment of healing for her where, where she was
able to to rag realize like, OK, not all, not all churches are
like that. Yeah, so that was hard, but
super, super meaningful to be able to unpack that with her and
to untangle some of the stuff that that, you know, Christians,
unfortunately can someone's weaponized scripture to to fit a
particular belief structure. And I would say that is the
opposite of what Jesus is saying here.
Hmm. In in Jesus is examples.
They are in some ways about the person asserting themselves.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate you saying that.
And I think the sad reality is that this is the common, it
seems like common place that many people have these same
stories. And you know, I think about now
how many generations have been impacted by, you know, my like,
yeah, a, a family, yeah, that is now 3 generations impacted
because of that exact decision. Yeah, 3 generations not engaged
at all with church or faith or yeah, any any type type of
meaningful spiritual practice. Yeah, because of 11 church, Hmm,
interacting with one couple. OK, so not to do like a harsh
transition here, but harsh transition is hard.
It's hard to. Transition out of that.
Let's talk about the positive potential here, right?
Because I think we could go through many different
iterations of where we've seen churches and people and where we
ourselves have failed at doing this.
Well, let's talk about the positive side, which is like,
yeah, I got a neighbor. And, you know, that neighbor's
constantly, you know, the aggressor.
Yeah. Not in like overly egregious
ways, but inconsistent and yeah, negative ways.
Or the, I don't know, the same car that cuts you off at the
same point of your commute every single day now, but just like
the the everyday moments of life where we can begin to flip the
script because that's really what Jesus is saying.
Flip the script, right? Somebody slaps you across the
face. They are claiming authority over
you. They've taken something from
you. He says no, turn the other
cheek, force them to slap you with the front side of their
hand, which I love the your like demonstration of all of that,
but what does? Individual.
Me too. Yeah.
What does that say? Is it is it reclaims not
authority over that person, but it reclaims equality?
Yeah, that's what Jesus is saying.
He's like, don't let anybody take from you what is given by
God. And so you're saying, hey, like,
maintain equal footing. I don't know.
How do we begin to love our everyday enemies?
Yeah, because I mean, the reality is in most of our lives,
we are we this is gonna come up with family, neighbors,
coworkers, things like that, right.
You know, very, very rarely, I can't, I can't think of a entity
like a, a government or a nation or a people group that is
currently actively working against me.
Now that may not be the case for everyone, but in general, this
becomes at a very personal level of the spheres in which we find
ourselves every day. Right.
So like I'm trying to think of a simple example and I don't want
to provide an example where I've done it poorly because I have
done it poorly. But you know, would Love
Actually, I'm going to use my my neighbor as a positive example.
OK, so, so my neighbor, nice guy, nice guy, a little, a
little rowdy, like, you know, he's a, you know, anyway, he
often has parties and whatnot. So a number of years ago, New
Year's Eve, fireworks went off not at midnight as they
intended. I went off at about 3:00 AM, I
think. I think they had too much to
drink and. They celebrated New Year's in
Vancouver. That's right, that's right.
So they they they missed it and we're like, oh, shoot, we better
use our fireworks and wake the whole neighborhood in the
neighborhood was not happy. What I appreciate though, So I
was messaging him the next day and and was like, hey, I got
like fireworks shells all over my yard and car and driveway and
and he was like, dude, I'm so sorry.
Like I'm gonna come by and clean it up once I'm, you know, up and
out, I'm no problem. Got this.
I'll take care of it. And ever since then, ever since
then, this has been really cool. So all of a sudden he's been
inviting us to like some of us like he bought a smoker and like
had a whole bunch of people over for big for a big get together
for dinner last year. And then this past weekend, it
was Victoria Day weekend here in Canada and and he was like about
fireworks. I'm going to go do it at the
corner lot that's empty. Why don't you and your daughter
come out and watch the fireworks?
At 8:30 PM. At an appropriate, it was more
like 930, but I let her stay up late, you know, so like, and it
was actually like a beautiful little like, I don't know, like
a good. I think that could have gone
real sour. Yeah.
You know, for on both of our ends.
Yeah, right. It could have gone real sour
where I could have really dug my heels in and said like, bro,
you're you are destroying my stuff.
He didn't actually destroy anything.
But like, you know, I could have exaggerated.
I could have gotten very offended, but I was like, man,
that's not a good way to be a neighbor, you know?
And and I think equally him on the other hand, he was like, OK,
I need to maybe temper things a little bit here, you know, and I
was like, that's actually a beautiful picture of what good
neighboring it. It was not perfect.
You know, there are times when when, you know, we have to cover
our child's ears when we're outside.
But it's, it's really like, I think there's something
beautiful there. Yeah.
But I recognize that sometimes we are trying with our neighbors
and they are not always going to reciprocate in that way.
I I'm almost tempted to use the kind of it's a cliched phrase,
but I almost feel like killing with kindness.
Like keep going. Don't let them get the better of
you. Hmm, drop, drop off a, you know,
a box of cookies and a note and maybe even in that note because
in in in efforts of not being, you know, a, you know, a
doormat. If there's something that
they're doing that is bugging the heck out of you, maybe like
put in a little, a little reminder.
Hey, love being your neighbor. Wonder if we could work on this.
And if they still don't reciprocate, keep going, keep
going. They will be frustrated by how
how happy you are. Maybe that's idealistic.
Maybe that is is to, you know, yeah, too optimistic about human
nature. But I like to think that if we
can maintain a level head, not allow our emotions, the negative
emotions to get in the way, that we could actually make a
difference. Yeah.
Yeah, I love. I think you had a line in your
sermon that said something I'm I'm gonna miss.
Quote it, but resist the temptation to fight back and try
to be reflective instead of reactive.
Um, yeah, my kids are watching Daniel Tiger.
He sings a song. I'm not gonna sing it because
when you feel so mad that you wanna roar, take a deep breath
and count to 4. I love that.
Anyway, so we're working on that one, but like I, I, I like that.
Keep going. There is a call to perseverance
and just steady doing the next right thing because it's the
right thing. And don't get sucked into this
for that and back and forth. Don't get sucked down to
someone's level. Don't get pulled over like, you
know, don't allow somebody else to define who and how you are
right is really, I think what what we're after.
You had another line that you brought up and I think it was a
quote from somebody, and I don't remember off the top of my head
who it was, but who said the Christian is the one who does
the extra thing? Yes, William Barclay, the
Christian ethic is, yeah, the Christian ethic is the extra
thing to do. The extra thing?
Doing the extra thing, yeah, that, that that was a really
helpful line because it doesn't have to be a big thing.
Hmm. It's just the extra thing a
little. Bit more, yeah.
Yeah, I, I didn't use this example in in the sermon, but it
it made me think of it made me think of when Steve Jobs was
still with us and would do his Big Apple presentations.
I always watch them and then he always go one more thing.
Yeah, one more, one more. And then it was the biggest
thing. No, I know everybody.
Knew. And that was kind of bring in my
mind a little bit. I was like, you know what?
Everything was kind of status quo.
And then one more thing. Oh, you know, yeah, yeah.
It could be cool for Christians to live that way.
One. More thing.
Yeah. And sorry, was there more to
that question or just muse on that or?
No, no, exactly that I think. I think that's language that
helps maybe for this to resonate every day.
Supposed to, you know, I like I think our minds naturally go to
the biggest and baddest of situations and enemies and
etcetera. And we lose sight of the fact
that really what Jesus is doing here is giving like it's this is
Christian ethics for the road. This is for, for, you know, on
the way in the, you know, on the journey, in the course of life.
They're they're not, they're not like he's not got a solution and
a scenario for every single thing that's going to happen to
you, right? This is not, it's not a manual
to be like, well, so buddy cut me off when I was already
stopped at a stop sign and he blew through.
So I'm like, you can't find that page where Jesus says if this,
then that, right? That's not exactly what he's
after. It's not a if this then that
sort of solution to everything. What it is, is a general way of
being that defines the Christian, or the one who's
living inside the Kingdom, as being different.
This is about right heartedness. Like your, your heart being, uh,
you know, directed toward Jesus or pointed in the right
direction and then continuing to do the next right thing in that
direction. As opposed to it being, yeah,
just this solution for every different scenario that that may
arise. I think what he's saying is do
the extra thing. And it's going to be an everyday
faithfulness just in little things.
Hmm. And then in the bigger things as
well, It's in little even just a little attitude adjustments.
And I say that for me, I've been thinking upon.
After the sermon on Sunday, I had a little rest time and then
we drove to my inlaws for dinner, as we often do on Sunday
evenings. And I didn't get cut off.
There was no one did anything to me.
But I saw a particular vehicle that I have a particular disdain
for. Well.
I saw one too this week. And and fill in the blanks.
I know, I know. I'm not going to say it, but I
know. And I started, I started lipping
off a little. I started and, and my
conscience, AKA my wonderful wife, she called me out and
she's like, wait, I mean, no, great.
And she was not she was teaching Sunday school.
She so she didn't hear my OK, but she knew what the topic was.
OK. She knew what the topic was.
Yeah. And so she was like, wait, what
did you preach about this morning?
I said, God, Dang it, Dang it. And she's so right, you know, as
as she always is. And she'll be happy to know that
I, I said that. But honestly, like it's those
little attitude adjustments where I was like, yeah, like,
why am I? Why do I care so much about that
thing? And like, that's not to say we
can't have genuine gripes about about situations and people and.
Ethics. Ethics and all, all of those
things. But but it's, you know, what is
happening in my heart in that moment.
I need to, I need to sit with that.
I need to reflect on that a little.
We're headed this week more so as well is like, I think more
than anything, this is like holding a mirror up to yourself,
right? And I think I might actually do
that. So if you come on Sunday, I
might, I might have a mirror up on the stage with me because I
think it is like as much as we want it to be that, like I'll
hold a mirror up to you so you can see yourself.
Really, these are just my notes. This isn't a mirror.
These are These are. All the questions.
Thank you. Well, listen, it's nice when
it's small, but when I try to write on that big board in the
sanctuary, it just goes sideways.
So what Jesus is doing is holding up a mirror to yourself,
right? And like so much of what
scripture does is we I, because I'm human, I want to make it
about the other person and be like, this is going to help you.
He's such a, you know, a good person when really it, it can,
it's meant to convict my heart 1st and change my life.
And so I think the, the small, the small things everyday make
the big things easier. And like, I don't like that I'm
an all or nothing kind of person.
It's like in or out, like just tell me which way we're going.
But really, this is a case where it's the everyday discipline of
those moments where like I'm gonna intentionally choose to
not think down this path and I'm going to think down this path
instead. It's that everyday discipline of
doing that that helps you face the big monsters in your life,
right? Like the big the big situations
and. Even just like owning it and
being able to talk freely about these things, you know, having a
little podcast confessional here about these things helps me to
be able to like, be accountable in some way, right?
Where like, I don't want to be a person marked by judgment and
cynicism And, and you know, like, I want to think the best
of people. That's what Jesus is calling us
to. He's he's asking us to love them
and to seek their good. And when I'm not doing that, I
am not. I am not living out my role as a
son and heir in the Kingdom of God.
Hmm, which I think is a great place to end it is.
There's so much more. We could have talked about a
lot. We didn't get to talk about
enemy in Christian music lyrics. We didn't know we did.
That's. OK, well, it'll come up again.
It'll. Have to be its own special
episode. I think the thing that maybe is
worth leaving people with is just by acknowledging again,
like, this is hard. It's not easy.
Messed up after preaching so well.
This like, yeah, and I've had those.
So I will never forget that the first time Connie said literally
those same words, like she turned me like, I think I heard
a sermon about this. I heard her good sermon about
this today. I was like, Oh my goodness.
How? Like how?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's hard.
Yeah, it's not and easy simple thing to do, but the good
meaningful right things rarely are.
And like as cliche as that is, in some ways I think that's that
that is true about about this like you began with that this is
easy to understand. It's hard to do.
Yeah. So start today with a small
thing, just the next right thing, and then try for the next
right thing after that. And I don't know, try to debt
snowball that thing like. But like, I think that's the
best approach is make the next right decision and get people
around you who can help keep you accountable to it and point out
when we fail at it. Yeah.
But until next week, we hope that this encourages you toward
meaningful and sometimes difficult conversation.
And we'd love to continue to hear your questions and comments
and feedback to our e-mail. We look forward to seeing many
of you Bible Study Sunday services and throughout your
week piece.