Hey, friend, welcome to this episode of the podcast.
And today we're talking about everybody's least favorite,
favorite topic, money and the church and tithing and what we
ought to do as Christians, what we're challenged to do as
followers of Jesus, beyond just what we ought to do or should
do, but what we're challenged to live into.
I talked a lot about this Sunday Living generously, spent the
last two weeks. I think I joked that sometimes
ministers, like sometimes preachers get to be a broken
record and say the same thing twice, like the same solution
for, you know, two weeks in a row was practicing generosity.
Hmm, Which I think is just a helpful way to start.
We, you know, recognize that these are these are good and
helpful and important, but difficult conversations.
We hope that they, they encourage you and challenge you
to live a little bit more open handed and and generous, right.
Like at the end of the day, that's our heart and our hope is
not for a shame, but to encourage and challenge toward
what it might look like to live generously.
So we're going to jump into conversation around it.
If you haven't read it, go read Luke 16, the second-half.
And if you haven't listened to the sermon, I don't know, listen
to this first and then go back. Yeah.
The other thought I had is, is like there's another opportunity
within this conversation because we we often avoid conversations
like this, especially like amongst friends, it's not
considered always polite conversation to be able to like
talk about the specifics of, of where we do and don't put our
money where, how you know, to the extent of the extent of our
generosity, the extent of us buying things for our own sake,
right. Those are the conversations that
are not, you know, in our, at least in our Canadian culture is
not considered polite conversation.
You know, sure. Like, so that's like, that's
another facet like I think is like worth leaning into to, to
just say like, hey, like, let's actually have these
conversations, you know, so like, let's, let's have the hard
conversation. Like let's ask one another like,
hey, am I in line here or am I out of line?
Right. That's a, that's a worthwhile
starting point. So, yeah, it was the parable of
the, the rich man who is unnamed, which he noted, and
Lazarus, who is named. And And so we are supposed to
find ourselves, as you said, in, in the rich man who lacks
generosity, who lacks mercy, who lacks grace toward those he like
the like Lazarus who was on the streets, who is poor, who was
diseased. And it's, it hits home like I
felt myself feeling uncomfortable.
Hmm. How do you feel about making me
uncomfortable? Great.
I love making people uncomfortable.
So here's here's what I would say about that.
I think the like for myself as well.
Yeah, I think the passages that make us the most uncomfortable
are exactly the ones that we need to lean into, Right.
And like, I read a book a while ago and this is not like a plug
for the book in its entirety, but it was called The Comfort
Crisis. And I think it was.
I think it's written by a guy named Michael Easter, I think is
in the I read this, but it's been 3 years, I think at least
since I've read it. But he argues in that book that
one of the, one of the downfalls of our current society, like the
way we in the West, and I'll speak for like for us in Canada,
for the majority of people in Canada, let's just say that life
is so comfortable, whether you feel it or not, it is that, um,
you know, we've, we've actually began to see the detriment of
like a comfortable lifestyle. So resilience is like dropping
mental health, loneliness, all of these things that now we're
starting to talk about in terms of like mental health, even
epidemics like, hmm. A lot of it, he argues, is born
out of this, this, this basically consistent pursuit of
comfort and that when you're comfortable, nothing ever
changes and you don't change when nothing like, and, and I
think like, I think we know it, but like you're not gonna grow
much if you're only ever comfortable.
And so anyways, it's, it's not, it's not a Christian book.
It's, it's not, it's not a bad book.
It's actually quite good and challenging.
I think there's really cool implications for Christians in
that book. But you know, I think it, it
brings me back to the point like, what are we missing?
Because we're pursuing comfort, right?
What do we walk past in the pursuit of comfort?
What do we ignore in the name of comfort?
What do we justify because of our, you know, endless pursuit
of just simply a comfortable lifestyle?
And then when we turn to texts as well, I think, and we have
this natural inclination to go, oh, that makes me uncomfortable.
Like, let's just skip the thing. Let's just forget.
Like, let's pretend that it's not here and move on to
something else that maybe maybe challenges me in a more
comfortable way. Yeah.
Yeah, there are tears. There are tears of, of like, I
don't mind being comforted or a challenge when it comes to, you
know, my, my moral choices out of mind being challenged when it
comes to like living, living into community and the Kingdom.
But when it comes to money, like that's like, I think it's one of
those things that we, we clasp. I think we, we tend to hold our
fists a little closer and, and sometimes, especially right now
in our, in our world where there is more uncertainty than what
feels like there has been with, you know, something like, you
know, the Strait of Hormuz, it's open, it's closed, it's open,
it's closed. And it's like gas prices or
yoyoing and, and, and all of these other, you know, other,
all these other aspects of just are, are uncertain economic
climate that are usually the first response is how can I
protect myself? How can I, you know, like I even
in my YouTube feed, I saw like multiple videos from like
financial people who were like, here's the here's the top five
ways you can protect yourself during these uncertain economic
times. And like, you know, there's,
there's wisdom to making wise decisions right now.
You know, like even in in our own household, you know, my wife
and I are, our conversations have shifted a little bit,
right? And it's not, you know, I think
there's a wisdom to that. And it's not an overreaction to
say, yeah, you should probably be using this as an opportunity
to be even more mindful about how you are choosing to employ
your resources, whatever those resources are.
Certainly the way in which you are using the money that you
have, you need to be more, you know, I think I'll leave it at
that. We should be using this as an
opportunity to be more careful and conscious about what we're
doing with it. We should use as an invitation
to think a little bit more critically about it, for sure.
So yes, absolutely be wise and make wise decisions.
And I think that what you're bringing U is what we all feel,
which is less the wisdom side of things and more the fear side of
things. Yes, right.
Because that's the, I think at the end of the day, that's the
reality is that there's not many things in the world that can
make us fearful like money can. And you know, maybe you have it,
you don't have enough, maybe you don't have it.
How do you get like, there's a lot of different scenarios where
money can cause you to be fearful, fearful of losing what
you have, fearful that you will never have enough there.
You know, it's not just that if you don't have money, you're
fearful. I think many people who do have
enough are also fearful. I'm gonna say like that, that's
another reality is that it doesn't seem like I, I think
that there are, you know, people that experience genuine
scarcity. But even when you are, you know
what, even when you don't have the threat of, of, you know, not
being able to pay your bills or whatever it is, still, it can
still be all consuming and, and you know, very fear inducing
just because you know, like it's, it's scary the thought of
losing what you have, even if you have a lot.
Yeah. And I think the, the reality
about money and like economic sort of standing or position in,
in the world, it feels a little bit to me like, and, and I think
maybe we've talked about this a bit, but like a frog in boiling
water, Hmm. You know, So what happens as you
grow right? Like, you know, you enter the
workforce, whether that's after high school or after university
or after graduate degrees and you grow in your position and
your income grows. And what happens?
Well, for many people, many people get married and then you
have double income and then maybe you have kids, maybe you
don't have kids, but then you surround yourself with like
minded and you know, similar tier kind of families and
economic reality, right? And everything grows and you
grow together and people are buying homes and they're buying
new homes and people are buying cars and they're buying new cars
and taking vacations. And like the whole temperature
just kind of rises slowly. And this is like, this is the,
the I'm using air quotes here. Like this is the expected or
typical trajectory in the West, which is like, you get a job and
then you get a better job and you make some money and then you
make more money and everything scales and your vacation scale
and you're spending scales and your house scales and the amount
of garages you have scales and the cars to put in them.
And like it's just this endless pursuit of more but you know,
you're not actually even necessarily chasing them more.
It's just that everything creeps U slowly and you just don't even
realize it. And so I think that what can
grow with that then also is if you are, you know, if your
economic reality is growing, I think the fear can also grow
with it. Yeah.
So it's not that the more you have, the less fear you have.
It's that everything scales at the same rate.
Yes, yes. And so it never feels like
there's enough. Well, but do you remember 10
years ago when like, you could hardly make ends meet and, you
know, early on in life and in marriage and, and trying to
figure out like, how are we OK, Right.
Like you have 4 diapers like. We had nothing when we first got
married, right? So we had so little and and
like, yeah, we had moments that were like a little fear
inducing. But yeah, you're right.
It, it, it has, it has scaled. It's just at a different level,
you know? Right and like the fear scales
with it because what you perceive as enough scales.
So I heard this great story and it was past named Brian Lauritz.
He passers in the States and he and his wife maybe I've told
this story in the podcast. And so if I have, you know, we
can cut it out in editing. But he, he, he tells the story
about starting, he planted a church.
And so like very early on, like, you know, only maybe a couple,
100 people, they're planting this church.
And early on in his ministry, he and his wife together planting
this church and making very little.
And then the church kind of exploded and grew very rapidly.
And he's like every year the board came and gave me a raise.
And every year the board came back and gave me another raise.
And he tells the story that he and his wife sitting down
finally and saying, OK, we've got to sort this out because,
uh, you know, we don't like the rate at which like the church is
growing and that's fantastic and that's incredible.
And put our income is like, we need to figure out what is
enough. Hmm.
And what he does, what he and his wife sat down to decide was,
OK, let's figure out now what enough looks like because we
don't want to wait until 20 years down the road because
enough is going to change, right?
And if you don't define it for yourself, it's going to define
it for you. So they sat down.
They said this is what enough is.
You know, we're gonna. So at that point, I think they
were both working. They're like, we're gonna, we're
gonna continue to accept raises, but everything that we make
beyond enough, we're going to give away.
Hmm. And so it was no longer a
question of like, OK, where is our, what's our 10%?
And is our 10% gonna scale with our, with our income?
And is it gross or is it net anyways?
And like, well, you know, what do you want?
That was no longer the conversation.
The conversation was, we know what our baseline is.
We know what enough is for us and for our family.
And we're going to choose to live on enough and everything
else we're going to give away. And I, I love that story.
I think the challenge for most of us in that is, shoot, it's
very hard to define what enough is.
Yes, Because if I'm left to define what enough is for me,
that's where like the fear creeps back in and I go, well,
I'd like to have this much saved away and I'd like to have this
much in an emergency fund. And I'd like to have this paid
down and, you know, no car payments And this like you start
like it enough can balloon if you're left to your own your own
devices. Figure it out.
That's where our minds are going right now.
Like for my family, like it's like, OK, as, you know, as we
grow in our, our careers, it's like, OK, yeah, yeah.
They want to pay down our house. Yeah, yeah, we want to save for,
for eventual retirement. Yeah.
But it's always the details of, of how you go about that.
And then also RB scaling our generosity with that, right.
Like those are, you know, those are like, there's this weird
challenge of like financial wisdom mixed with like the
foolishness of generosity. And like the, you know, in that
sort of like biblical sense of foolishness, like, like the, the
foolish ways in which we're like, we need to be extravagant
in our generosity. And also how do we, you know,
like take care of ourselves? How do we.
Yeah, like and and yeah, not an easy answer.
No, this is this is what I want for myself.
And I'm not saying this as someone who's figured it out.
I'm saying this is what I would like.
This is what I strive for and hope for and pray for.
It's like I want to be as wise with enough so that I can be as
ridiculously generous with more like that.
I think that's the balance for me is like, you can't just start
giving everything away, hmm, until you have nothing.
I mean, maybe in very rare cases, like I, I don't think
that the general Christian follower of Jesus, you listening
to this podcast are being challenged to, to take a vow of
poverty and to go live, you know, in, you know, whether
that's in a monastery or some sort of like intentional living
community. I don't think many, like, I
don't think that's a call on everybody's life.
I don't think a valve of poverty is.
I do know that for many it is and you know, have seen the, the
fruit of that in people's lives. I think it's fascinating.
And this is taking us in a different direction and so we
can steer back really quickly. I think it is fascinating the
like the move or like the buy in to things like minimalism and
tiny homes. Hmm is astronomical.
Hmm. And I think it's because we're
starting to feel the the impact and the effects of having too
much, like too much stuff. And so you have a bigger house,
you fill it with stuff that you don't use.
And it's like my garage, man, My garage.
I would love to fit a car in our garage because that's what it
was designed for, but it's filled with stuff.
I can't do it, but since we moved, it's just I've been
working nonstop feels like to try to clear it out and give as
much away and donate what we can scrap metal, the other stuff and
like it. It just you, you naturally fill
the space that you have. And I think anybody who has
moved from a smaller house into a larger house, whether you've
rented or bought, that doesn't matter.
You know, you fill the space that you have.
So there's this great quote and it's usually used, I think in
architecture circles. And I don't know who said it.
And it might be made-up and it might could actually carry any
weight for architects. So I know we have some of those
who listen. Yeah.
But there's this. Are we in the beginning?
So we design our buildings, right?
And then our buildings design us.
Oh, we design our spaces, and then you live in them.
But eventually those spaces will impact how you live in them.
And so, you know, that checks out in my mind.
That makes sense. Yeah.
So, you know, we, we maybe were very, very intentional in the
beginning, but then no matter what space we have, you'll fill
it. And you know, that's, that's,
that's true for physical space. It's true for emotional and
relational space. Like you need to carve out
margin. Otherwise it just fills with
crap like it. I don't know if I can say crap
on our podcast, but I. Just I said it in a sermon once
and I didn't get any minimal. Feedback.
Yeah, good deal. Junk with junk.
So I I just think that that's the that is often the struggle
of, of the human being is we fill it.
So yeah, when it comes to when it comes to money, when it comes
to enough, when it comes to scale, when it comes to scaling,
I think the sooner you can sit down and have those
conversations about enough, the better chance you will have.
Hmm. Because again, like I see it, I
see the the fleet to minimalism is this just a complete
abandoning of material possessions that fill and have
no use? It's like, well, let's have very
few things that all serve a purpose.
I go, yeah, that sounds great, but there's something about the
way our society operates right now that just so pushes against
it. I find it fascinating.
So that the minimalism movement, a couple of like the really
prominent figures in the minimalism movement are pastors
or like ex pastors. Yeah.
So they're not not X pastors who've left the church, but like
they've moved on from they kind of dabbled in minimalism out of
a spiritual practice and then found very quickly, oh, this is
resonating with millions beyond the church walls.
And so now our writing and speaking and kind of leading
into that fascinating to me again though, that that it was
born out of people who from a spiritual, disciplined,
practiced way realized I have too much and it's hampering my
relationship with God and it's hampering my relationship with
others. And I need to sort this out.
And now it's just blown up into this like cult of minimalism,
but. And it can become a cult.
It can become this thing that you kind of obsess over and and
turn. And in the same way that we do
with so many things in our life, you can you can become sort of
obsessed with chasing that particular thing, even in an
unhelpful way. I I would say like, I would say
it can become an idol just like anything else.
Yeah, yeah, right. I think it's a helpful tool and
a helpful framing, but it can become an idol if it is the
thing that you are pursuing. Yeah, yeah.
Alright. I want to get specific.
OK. So you talked yesterday kind of
in response to, you know, seeing this ungenerous rich man, we
talked about what generosity ought to look like.
And you know, you use that really like like that you read
that CS Lewis quote that like made me like my skin crawl a
little bit in terms of how like convicting it was just that, you
know, like we should, you know, we should have, we should be
uncomfortable with how much we give basically was the you know,
the the gist of it. If I could summarize it in a
small little sentence, but I want to get specific a little
bit on the kind of say like 10 percent, 90% and say, you know,
you talked about 10% as a, as a baseline that works toward
obedience and that and that some of us need to work toward
obedience. That's where we need to get to
some of us, we need to get to a place where it's like this is
this is what God has called us toward in Scripture.
And as Jesus so often does, he calls us to more, right?
He calls us to, to greater degrees of generosity and a life
of generosity. So there are two different
potential pitfalls. That I could see different
people who are wired differently going down.
One of those pitfalls could be toward what you could categorize
as like legalism. You could say, like, you know, I
need to get toward my 10%. And once I get to my 10%, I'll,
I'll start to kind of like, you know, I'll inch toward 11, you
know, 11 and a half, 1315, whatever.
And the more I do that, the more in line I am with God and the
more that God will show his face.
It's it's, you know, you talked about like the Pharisees
equating blessing and wealth, but and you're almost gonna be
doing the same thing as you work toward generosity.
And and so that's, you know, can become a form of works
righteousness in a way. The other potential pitfall
veers the other way in that yes, we may work toward that kind of
that baseline 10%, but we can turn generosity into a non
specific sort of nebulous goal with with no real aim, you know,
like we turn surrendering and being generous with all that we
have and to some sort of like empty platitude.
Yeah, right. And and so like what what's the
approach? You talked about intention.
So I think that's got to be a part of it.
Like, you know, like that are our intention needs to be that
we're not going to just muster that we don't we're not going to
veer naturally toward generosity.
So there needs to be like an intention toward working toward
what God would have for us. But just wondering if you could
talk about that a little bit. For sure.
So, yeah, a couple different ways right to go.
I had somebody come up to me after the sermon and said, you
forgot a verse. And I was like, well, I forgot a
lot of verses about giving and, you know, but this this
individual said, she said, the one that gets me all the time
is, is the line. God loves a cheerful giver.
And I go, yeah, you know, so like that that was what was
landing with her was like, OK, this this challenge being
balanced with the attitude, right.
And I think this is what you mentioned and this is what we
talked about a little bit in terms of intention.
And here, you know, the line is G&G Jesus's response to the
Pharisees. He says God knows your heart is
like you're trying to justify yourselves in front of people
like to to one another and to everyone around you.
No matter how much you try to justify yourself, God knows
what's really going on. And so I think that's the line
that I think that's the line that we need to have resonating
in the back of our mind and not out of like a fearful, Oh my
goodness, God knows my heart. And yeah, what if I give out of
this wrong intention, right? I, I just think we need to
remember that and use it as a prayer almost to invite God to
reorder our intentions. Like God help me, help me to do
this cheerfully because maybe listen, like I'll be honest,
like maybe some people don't. Yeah, maybe.
So here's one of the other pitfalls is that you do, you
give 10% because you have to and you are just unhappy about that,
right, Right. So that's a, I would argue like
that's a poor intention. Hmm.
And that's a poor motivation, like poor motivation to leave it
at as like, OK, fine, I'm doing this because I have to, right?
That's not, that's not the heart behind it.
So This is why I think we struggle so much with obedience
like that word obedience, because I don't like being told
I don't do exactly. I don't want to be told what I
have to do. So I won't or I will, but I'll
do it begrudgingly. And I think that if that's your
heart, like if you know that that's rattling around inside of
you, then that's an invitation for you to pray that prayer.
OK, God, you know my heart. And you know what I'm wrestling
with here. So I need to hear from you on
this. Like maybe listen, I'm not a
pastor who's going to say like, you know, every single person
has to be tithing 10% all the time or like, I don't know, your
key can't be part of this church like that.
How horrible of a theology is that?
That's why we say, hey, if you're between 0 and 10%,
everybody has to start somewhere, work at growing
toward 10%. What does that say?
So I said this yesterday and I didn't like unpack it, but what
does that imply? It implies that not everybody
is. And it it also implies that you
might be in a season of life where it's very hard to jump
immediately to 10%, be like, OK, good, here we go.
Work toward getting there. Because I think that that's the
right thing to do. And I think that there's good
biblical basis for it. But if you're gonna be fine,
I'll do 10% and I'm gonna do it begrudgingly.
And I'm not gonna like it. A I just think, man, God's gonna
surprise you. Hmm.
But be, I think that's the conversation that you got you,
you, you have to have with God. So like we can take the legalism
thing a couple of different ways, even on its own.
So, you know, that's, I think that's the invitation.
Pray because God knows your heart and invite God to reveal
your heart and invite God to reveal the reasons why you're
having a hard time taking this step.
And, and what is it, What is it about?
What's going on? Like, what is it about the
situation or circumstance? What is it about me?
What is it about our, like, my financial spending habits that
makes this so difficult for me to even fathom?
But I think the flip side is you get to 10%.
And I didn't hammer this point maybe as hard as I could have in
the sermon yesterday. Which is to say, I think a lot
of people get to 10% and they just click off and it's like,
OK, fine, I do the 10% and good enough.
Like I'm doing the obedience thing.
Away we go. You put it on autopilot,
especially if you're like, you know, you've set it up with, you
know, with your church and, and charities to like just
automatically withdraw from your account, your visa or whatever,
you know, like. Yeah, Yeah, I do that.
We do that. So we give VIPAR preauthorized
remittance. That's our, you know, monthly
program that our denomination uses.
And I gotta admit like that's it's so easy.
I love it because I don't have to think about it practically
and I don't have to remember, but I also don't have to think
about it, right? And I don't have to remember.
And that that I think actually is harmful in a different way
because now it's just I'm not even thinking about it.
Well, I go back to that CS Lewis quote.
So like, if I can just not even think about it, is it enough?
Probably not, right. Like I should be thinking about,
hey, OK, when is this coming out and where is it going?
And where is this piece going out?
And like you, you should I, I should be thinking about it.
And I do think that that's come back to intention that like it
should be an intentional act. So I remember growing up, we
would go to Ghanaian Presbyterian Church in Montreal
and their services were like 3 1/2 hours long and they gave out
snacks part way through. We had friends who were there
and like every so often my dad would be invited to go preach or
there'd be something happening within the city and like be
happening at, at the, the church downtown Montreal.
And I absolutely love this. I will never, ever forget it,
but that particular congregation would dance their offering to
the front. Music was playing.
It was a big thing. And like, I can just like I can
even feel I'm like, what this is, it's a show like what's
happening? Like you were doing it in front
of people, Like what is this? And then going like, no, this is
pure joy worship. This is part of worship.
It is absolute pure joy to bring these these offerings to God and
say, God, you're going to do way more with this than me.
So let's celebrate that and let's watch what happens.
And I was a kid when we started going to this church, you know,
again, not often, but every, you know, every maybe kind of once a
year or twice a year kind of thing.
And then growing up, going to seminary, going through
undergrad a couple times here and there.
But I will never forget that because it just feels so
different than my like preauthorized remittance that
slips quietly out of my account on, I guess the same day every
week or every month rather every month.
And like that for me that I, I do, I will say this as a pastor,
we will always have mechanisms to make it easy for you to give
because we want to make it easy for you to give.
But there's a theological tension that I feel always about
that because I want this to be an act of worship, like you've
said. And I want this to be something
that we lean into together as a community.
And I want this to be something that we celebrate, and that's
hard to do when it happens quietly.
This, this Sunday is, I think, theoretically supposed to be a
Sunday where we take up an offering.
Maybe we need to, maybe we need to talk about the way in which
we can up the intentionality, or for the anyway we can talk
without stopping tomorrow or something.
Absolutely. I just think it's helpful to say
so. Yeah, you're you're 2 errors.
Have we covered them? I, I know like the legalism
thing there, you can feel it in a, in a few different ways.
Hmm. Let me just touch on the last
piece of legalism that I think you mentioned, which is that,
you know, the the more you grow your, your tithe into
generosity, into offering, then the more God will bless you.
So that's the exact way that the Pharisees were living and they
were living as though it was an exchange that they could live in
and enjoy the comfort of. And you know, I think if you
are, so is God going to bless you for acting in obedience to
God in multiple different ways? Yes, we aren't the ones who get
to define what that blessing is. And it's probably not going to
be material blessing. And it exactly, it's probably
not blessing in the way that you immediately go and think about
it. Yeah.
So, you know, I think that that's just to temper that
that's the way the Pharisees are living with this transactional
God. And they can enjoy the comfort
of their own prosperity. They can give exactly what they
want, but here so take us back like I.
I quoted Matthew 2323 and I think this verse helps push
against that form of legalism. Hmm.
Because Jesus doesn't so the the Pharisees are are tithing 1/10
of like spices, right? So it says like human.
I don't remember what else is is there.
It's like oh I I love a good cumin spice added to.
Like BBQ. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
bring bring some spices and put them in the offering plate this
week. I love it.
Yeah. So he says, well, do you scribes
and Pharisees, hypocrites pretend play actors, He says,
for you tithe mint. Oh yeah, mint and dill and cumin
and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and
mercy and faithfulness. And so he says these you ought
to have done without neglecting the others.
So that's, I think the that is one of the safeguards against
that, like legalism, which is, you know, if, if it's a
transaction, then I think ask yourself, OK, where is the
justice? Where's the mercy?
Where's the faithfulness? Yeah.
And how, how am I practicing those?
And I think we need to listen to Jesus's words.
Like you should practice the former were practiced the latter
rather without neglecting the former.
Yeah. And we essentially all he's
saying there is you ought to do you ought to tithe is what Jesus
is saying. And you ought to practice
justice, mercy and faithfulness. So it's that justice, mercy and
faithfulness that safeguards against the the legalism.
Well, I'm doing the thing and I'm going to get my reward and
away we go. I think what's what's tricky,
and you talked about how the Pharisees were Jesus was
accusing them of cherry picking that they would like go through
this the Hebrew Bible and they would kind of like pick, you
know, some verses that would bolster their, their
justification for for their the way they lived, right.
And and you, you could do that right, like you, you know, you
could, you could go through, you know, for like Abraham and
onward and look at like, well, look, God bless these folks
materially in so many ways along the way that the kings so on and
so forth. And, and so you could imagine
that it, it is a genuine theological tension that we run
into when you read through, when you read through the Old
Testament. Yeah.
So here's here's where I would say though, that the tension,
the tension doesn't need to be resolved because God does say
when you give, I will bless you and that's true.
And that can remain true. I do, I go back to what I said
and I'm I'm repeating myself. I think the danger lies in when
we are the ones defining what that blessing is.
So that's the like, that's the piece that we need to check.
I think in our own hearts and in our own minds.
That's where community comes into play time overtime.
And that's where, you know, I would say that if you are
listening and, and you're, you know, you're, you're kind of
flying solo right now if you're single, if you need to get at
least one other single person to talk finances with.
Yeah, Right. And if you're married, then I
think you need to find at least one other married couple who you
can talk finances with. And better yet, like get a group
of like, like 3, you know, 3 or 4 couples who are willing to go.
All right, we're in The thing is John Mark Comer's book where he
talks about $1000. So if the if the threshold,
yeah, if they as a family are gonna spend $1000 or more on a
single item of purchase, then they have to check that with
another family. They go that like how practical.
That's so good. Now it might not be $1000 for
you. It might be $500.
It might be $100. But I think if you're like, if
you're single, you gotta find another at least one other
single person, you can go, OK, my threshold is $500 right now.
And if I'm going to, if I'm thinking about spending 500
bucks on something, I'm like, can I text you and just run it
past you and you have free reign to challenge me on it?
See, that's dumb. Yeah, exactly.
Like no, you don't need to do the thing.
And hopefully someone that would feel the freedom to challenge
and not just sort of like give permission for everything like
that. That might be my tendency
sometimes where I just be like, oh, that I want that for you.
That's great. Yeah, like, Christians do this
all the time. We're like, sure.
Like, I'm not gonna check it because, like, I also want to go
buy a $500 thing. So if you buy the $500 thing,
I'll also buy the $500 thing. And then it's like, no money was
spent, right? Like it's just bad math.
But. The you know, I so I would say
like one, if you're, if you're a single, go find somebody else
who you can talk finances. If you're a married couple, go
find somebody you can talk finances with your married
couple with kids. Then go find another married
couple with kids. Because I think there's
something good about having somebody at the same stage of
life as you going, Hey, I know your priorities right now.
I know what they need to be because we have them as well,
right? Like I know how much diapers
cost. I know how much wipes cost and
hopefully my 2 year old is going to soon be completely out of
them and then I won't know right.
So, you know, like there's just there's stages of, of, of life
that we go through for somebody who is like empty nesters still
both working. Like, I probably am not the best
person to speak into your economic reality.
Yeah, go find somebody else who is also empty nesters.
And you know, like, I don't know, maybe your mortgage is
paid off. Maybe it's not paid off.
Like maybe you're both working. Maybe when you've seen these
thinking about retiring, what's that all window like go find
somebody who can. Hey, I'm in it.
We're having the same conversations at our house now.
Let's have those together. Yeah, I think that would be the
best thing that you could do after listening to this podcast.
Yeah, Would be find one other person to start talking money
with. That's good.
I wanna take us back to Malachi, OK, because you're mentioning
you're mentioning so passages that that do talk about God's
blessing. And, you know, again, just to
hammer home this point. So in Malachi 3, God accuses the
people of robbing from him. And they're like, what are you
talking about? Like we're not stealing from you
get like, that's hard, right? It's hard to picture that kind
of like, I don't know, what does that even look like?
And and and God says to them, you have failed to tithe.
You have stopped tithing. And he says in your yeah, he
says how? He says to them, you say, how
have we robbed you, question mark?
And he says in your tithes and contributions.
And then he says, bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that
there may be food in my house. And then he says, and thereby
put me to the test. It's one of the only places, if
not the only place, where God actually asks the people to test
him. And then he says, so he says,
test me if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and
pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.
And so you can walk away from that verse and go, Yep, it says
it, if I tithe, I will be blessed.
And I just, I think the the heaviest part of this passage is
the rebuke. Yes.
Right. Yeah, God.
This is not God showing up and saying, hey, you've been tithing
for your entire life. Look at all the blessings that I
am going to give you. God is saying, Hey, you've,
you've failed to do this. You need to begin doing this and
test me. See if I'm good for my word,
right. If you don't believe me, try it
and and I will show up. I will provide.
I think Jesus takes these in such a good direction in his
sermon on the mount, right where he says like, Hey, birds of the
air, flowers, these things are clothed better than Solomon.
They got more food than they could ever want or need.
How much more will God take care of you?
So again, I go from like lesser to to greater.
Yeah. So here's the lesser.
The lesser is God saying those people who have failed to to
tithe, hey, test me and I will prove I'm good for my word.
The greater is Jesus saying, look at everything that I've
created. Look at everything that is in
existence and how God provides for it.
How much more valuable are you than all of these things God
will provide for you? So don't worry.
Don't worry about tomorrow. Don't worry about what you will
eat. Don't worry about what you will
wear. Don't worry about what you will
what you will drink like God will provide these things.
That's the greater hmm. So again, I want us always
moving from these like from lesser to greater.
What is the greater call that Jesus places on, on the
Christian Um, and I think it's that this is, this is the
greater move right from Malachi to then like Sermon on the Mount
Matthew. So you are the lead pastor of
Courtwright Church and you give a message on money?
And a part of that, there isn't an inherent tension even in that
of like, you know, you want, I mean, we, I mean, we as staff
ultimately do want people to be generous toward the church
because we believe in what God is doing in this place.
And we believe in, in the mission of vision that God has
called us toward to do the work. And and that does require
resources. It, it, it, there is no easier.
There's, there's not an, there's not a, you know, less, there's
not a simple way to say that it's just we like, we need
resources, right? And so, but one of the tensions
I think we run into is that it can feel a little self-serving
for, for the, you know, the lead pastor to get up there and
preach message about money. Yeah.
And say, you know, you gotta give your, you know, your 10%.
And I think the implication being give that 10% to the
church and then money beyond that that you would be generous
with. Yeah, go to church if you want,
or to other, you know, charitable donations or
whatever. I'm just curious your, your, you
know, your theology, your theology on on that and where
you come at that. Yeah, so for starters, I can't
preach that message if I'm not tithing right, right.
Like that's I think that's just a non starter.
Did did the Levites tithe? No, they didn't have anything to
tie, did they? No, no, no, no.
They would completely dependent. Yeah, right.
Yeah. So, you know, to that point, I
know I don't know, you know, personally in really close
measure, but I know pastors who argue well.
I don't need to tithe. Yes.
Yeah. And I think that that's bad
theology. Yeah, very bad.
Very. And I think it's poor
leadership. You can't get up and preach A
sermon like that, um, from a place of not also participating
in the thing. And so I've like very rarely,
you know, will will I talk about.
And I didn't on Sunday say, well, we tithe, right?
That wasn't part of the message and you should too, right.
I think that's a different kind of like and almost coercive
turn. Yes, Yeah.
But I'm saying it here in this context, you know, I think
because it helps flesh out some of the answer.
So I say it cautiously. I am kind of guarded and saying
it, but I'll say it that way. Like I can't get up and preach
that message unless we're tithing.
Hmm. And that's something that I
felt, you know, in the weeks leading up to these two weeks
and in the weeks of the thing like, you know, I how grateful I
was that God has sorted that out in my heart and in my mind.
And it's just a non starter. So, OK, good, here we go.
So that's part of it. This, the second part is that
yes, I, I, I do believe that if you are fully in on a church,
like if you're here, if this is your church, if you're in on the
life and the ministry of court, right, then I think part of that
should be a longing to see it flourish and a longing to see
God do more with it. And so the, the theological
move, the easy answer is to say you're not actually giving it to
us. You're entrusting it to us, but
you're giving it to God. You're not tithing because I've
told you to, and because you need to to be a member of this
church. Also orable theology.
We don't. We don't, we don't want numbers,
you know, we don't want. It no, if that's or if you're if
you're giving because you think it buys you influence.
We don't want it right. So you know what you are doing
is giving theologically, giving to God what is God's.
You are choosing to entrust it to us as a church.
You're choosing to say God is entrusting this to you as a
church. And so I'm in, I'm in.
So if you are all in like if this is your church, if this is
a church that you, you know, talk to your friends about and
invite people to and you know, if this is your place, then I
think that that that ought to, I think weigh heavy on you because
it should, you should want for this community to flourish to
greater degree and measure because you see what God is
doing in us through this place in all of us.
Um, am I gonna be the one who stands up there militantly and
say, you know, you, you have to give that full 10% to us?
No, I'm also not gonna take that posture right.
Do I think that that again, when when I look at when I look at
the zero to 10, I think it's better for you to be at 10 than
at eight or seven or six or five.
But everybody needs to grow. And do I think that it is better
that that 10% go to your local church?
Yes, I do, but everybody needs to grow.
And if you are convinced and convicted, like, you know, one
of the one of the common things in Christian circles and and
Connie and I do this, but you know, many families will sponsor
kids, whether that's through World Vision or through
compassion. We personally love compassion
because of how transparent they are.
And, you know, we have had conversations at times.
OK, where does that fall? Yeah.
What is that? Is that generosity or is that
part of the 10%? And I, I think, you know,
there's a probably a pretty good argument that what, where Jesus
takes the tithe kind of away from the strictly legal to the
Levites thing. Like, I think you could probably
push an argument to say, well, if you believe wholeheartedly
that you're giving this back to God, then OK, do I think that it
is an ideal world where that 10% goes to your local church,
wherever that local church is? Then yes.
Also yes. Now I'll push people in this
direction as well, just to kind of temper my own response, OK?
If somebody only ever watches online and considers this to be
their church home, I would probably challenge that person
and have in my years of ministry that this shouldn't be the place
where you're tithing 10% right. And that's, listen, that's up.
That's between you and God. Yeah, you gotta sort that out
and. It's not like wrong or right,
it's more about like what's wise?
What's? Right.
I think you should be contributing to the community
where you are living, just like I actually think that nobody
should be. I know that there are mobility
issues and health issues that require this, right.
I think it is better for somebody to be invested in a
local church where they are, yeah, then a church by distance.
And I think that part of the reason why I believe that is
because you should know that that the like the the
organization, the church that's leveraging your givings are
putting it into your local community.
Yeah, right. And so people hear that, you
know, that it's going to the garden and you know that it's
going to food security in our neighborhood.
And you know that some of your neighbors might even be
benefiting from it. Like we are contributing to our
immediate community. We are also contributing
globally for sure, but you know that a lot of your resources are
going to resource saying our immediate community.
And I think that there's something beautiful about that,
right? We can get so caught up in what
am I going to do for the world? What am I gonna, how do you
begin to push against all that's happening and like the horrible
things that are going on across the entire globe?
How do you begin to do it? Well, you begin to do it by
leveraging your resources in your immediate neighborhood to
serve the least and last and lost in your neighborhood.
And so we've got people who are houseless.
We've got people who are food insecure.
We have people who don't know where another meal is gonna come
from. And food security for us has
been like the primary mechanism to say, hey, we're going to step
into the gap. And as much as we can do to put
food on people's tables and into their fridges who don't have
any, that's what we're going to do.
And I think that that should, that should be so compelling
that someone says, OK, fantastic, yeah, 10% is going to
go there. Hmm.
Because I can see what's happening with it.
And beyond that, we're gonna use that step of obedience to think
about how we can be generous elsewhere.
This is not easy. This is these are like in
somebody's heavy, like there's a heaviness to these conversations
as we as we think about the things that we want to cling on
to. And so I think just to, just to
close this out, you know, like I think there's something to be
said about, you know, working toward it.
Like God, would you, you know, my heart, God, would you help me
to open up my hands? You know, and maybe it starts if
I, if you're listening just on the podcast, I'm like opening
finger by finger. Maybe maybe it's just like
starting to open each finger pry, you know, like, like, and
it's just like this is a process that that God is bringing us
through. And it's also something that's
good to say is like, is like there is something good for us
in that. Like there is something healthy
and helpful about not accumulating.
They're hoarding more wealth and more stuff.
You know, you talk about like, you know what wealth and you
know what? So someone who wins the lottery,
what that does to someone's brain, right?
And and what it, the way that it shifts, like the way that a
billionaire thinks about money, it's there is something like,
there is something otherworldly about it for regular Joes like
you and I, but like there is something good for us in
generosity that God has for us. And so I don't know, maybe
that's a good place to end. I think so, yeah, I think so
we're going to get to revisit this because in in Luke 21, we
come back to the widows offering, right.
So you have Rich putting in what they what they are putting in.
And then you've got this little widow coming in and putting in
everything that she has. Yeah.
And Jesus, wrestling out the tension there and, and, and what
is greater and what is lesser. So I, I would challenge people,
I think with this one last thing, if you're looking for one
practical thing to do, go through your stuff and give away
one thing. Hmm, like just take, take some
time to think about one thing that you can give away to
someone else this week. And that could be that could be
a little bit of money, but it could, I literally mean, do you
have something that you could give away to bless someone else
with in this season? I think the more we practice
that releasing, like you've said, like open hand, it's
harder to do that maybe with money.
So a practical step could be do it with some of your stuff,
start to give it away and and watch to see what God will do in
your own heart and in your own mind and in the lives of the
people that are around you. Great.
We hope that this conversation has encouraged you in some way
and maybe challenged you more today, but we would love to hear
from you. So if you have questions for us,
questions at courtrightchurch.org, right?
And we would love to wrestle out some of those questions in
future podcasts. So until then, enjoy your week
and we'll see you in the next episode.