1
00:00:00,410 --> 00:00:03,180
Hey, friend, welcome to this 
episode of the podcast. 

2
00:00:03,190 --> 00:00:05,900
And today we're talking about 
everybody's least favorite, 

3
00:00:05,910 --> 00:00:10,570
favorite topic, money and the 
church and tithing and what we 

4
00:00:10,580 --> 00:00:13,500
ought to do as Christians, what 
we're challenged to do as 

5
00:00:13,510 --> 00:00:19,060
followers of Jesus, beyond just 
what we ought to do or should 

6
00:00:19,070 --> 00:00:21,500
do, but what we're challenged to
live into. 

7
00:00:22,110 --> 00:00:25,020
I talked a lot about this Sunday
Living generously, spent the 

8
00:00:25,030 --> 00:00:27,820
last two weeks. 
I think I joked that sometimes 

9
00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:30,040
ministers, like sometimes 
preachers get to be a broken 

10
00:00:30,050 --> 00:00:33,900
record and say the same thing 
twice, like the same solution 

11
00:00:33,910 --> 00:00:37,860
for, you know, two weeks in a 
row was practicing generosity. 

12
00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:40,700
Hmm, Which I think is just a 
helpful way to start. 

13
00:00:41,810 --> 00:00:45,580
We, you know, recognize that 
these are these are good and 

14
00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:48,300
helpful and important, but 
difficult conversations. 

15
00:00:48,710 --> 00:00:51,940
We hope that they, they 
encourage you and challenge you 

16
00:00:51,950 --> 00:00:54,940
to live a little bit more open 
handed and and generous, right. 

17
00:00:54,950 --> 00:00:58,310
Like at the end of the day, 
that's our heart and our hope is

18
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,430
not for a shame, but to 
encourage and challenge toward 

19
00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:04,450
what it might look like to live 
generously. 

20
00:01:04,459 --> 00:01:06,970
So we're going to jump into 
conversation around it. 

21
00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:11,810
If you haven't read it, go read 
Luke 16, the second-half. 

22
00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:14,250
And if you haven't listened to 
the sermon, I don't know, listen

23
00:01:14,260 --> 00:01:16,690
to this first and then go back. 
Yeah. 

24
00:01:17,890 --> 00:01:20,620
The other thought I had is, is 
like there's another opportunity

25
00:01:20,690 --> 00:01:25,080
within this conversation because
we we often avoid conversations 

26
00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:30,180
like this, especially like 
amongst friends, it's not 

27
00:01:30,190 --> 00:01:33,080
considered always polite 
conversation to be able to like 

28
00:01:33,090 --> 00:01:37,680
talk about the specifics of, of 
where we do and don't put our 

29
00:01:37,690 --> 00:01:42,280
money where, how you know, to 
the extent of the extent of our 

30
00:01:42,290 --> 00:01:45,990
generosity, the extent of us 
buying things for our own sake, 

31
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,780
right. 
Those are the conversations that

32
00:01:47,790 --> 00:01:51,570
are not, you know, in our, at 
least in our Canadian culture is

33
00:01:51,580 --> 00:01:53,130
not considered polite 
conversation. 

34
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,000
You know, sure. 
Like, so that's like, that's 

35
00:01:55,010 --> 00:01:57,810
another facet like I think is 
like worth leaning into to, to 

36
00:01:57,820 --> 00:02:00,610
just say like, hey, like, let's 
actually have these 

37
00:02:00,620 --> 00:02:04,450
conversations, you know, so 
like, let's, let's have the hard

38
00:02:04,460 --> 00:02:07,310
conversation. 
Like let's ask one another like,

39
00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,490
hey, am I in line here or am I 
out of line? 

40
00:02:10,500 --> 00:02:13,150
Right. 
That's a, that's a worthwhile 

41
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,590
starting point. 
So, yeah, it was the parable of 

42
00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,260
the, the rich man who is 
unnamed, which he noted, and 

43
00:02:19,270 --> 00:02:24,780
Lazarus, who is named. 
And And so we are supposed to 

44
00:02:24,790 --> 00:02:29,020
find ourselves, as you said, in,
in the rich man who lacks 

45
00:02:29,030 --> 00:02:34,980
generosity, who lacks mercy, who
lacks grace toward those he like

46
00:02:34,990 --> 00:02:39,360
the like Lazarus who was on the 
streets, who is poor, who was 

47
00:02:39,370 --> 00:02:44,960
diseased. 
And it's, it hits home like I 

48
00:02:44,970 --> 00:02:47,620
felt myself feeling 
uncomfortable. 

49
00:02:47,670 --> 00:02:49,380
Hmm. 
How do you feel about making me 

50
00:02:49,390 --> 00:02:50,450
uncomfortable? 
Great. 

51
00:02:50,510 --> 00:02:52,200
I love making people 
uncomfortable. 

52
00:02:52,270 --> 00:02:53,920
So here's here's what I would 
say about that. 

53
00:02:53,930 --> 00:02:55,480
I think the like for myself as 
well. 

54
00:02:55,540 --> 00:02:58,460
Yeah, I think the passages that 
make us the most uncomfortable 

55
00:02:58,470 --> 00:03:00,960
are exactly the ones that we 
need to lean into, Right. 

56
00:03:00,970 --> 00:03:04,260
And like, I read a book a while 
ago and this is not like a plug 

57
00:03:04,270 --> 00:03:08,140
for the book in its entirety, 
but it was called The Comfort 

58
00:03:08,150 --> 00:03:10,100
Crisis. 
And I think it was. 

59
00:03:10,110 --> 00:03:12,600
I think it's written by a guy 
named Michael Easter, I think is

60
00:03:12,610 --> 00:03:15,830
in the I read this, but it's 
been 3 years, I think at least 

61
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,110
since I've read it. 
But he argues in that book that 

62
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,560
one of the, one of the downfalls
of our current society, like the

63
00:03:25,570 --> 00:03:28,150
way we in the West, and I'll 
speak for like for us in Canada,

64
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,380
for the majority of people in 
Canada, let's just say that life

65
00:03:32,390 --> 00:03:38,990
is so comfortable, whether you 
feel it or not, it is that, um, 

66
00:03:39,190 --> 00:03:44,870
you know, we've, we've actually 
began to see the detriment of 

67
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:51,340
like a comfortable lifestyle. 
So resilience is like dropping 

68
00:03:51,850 --> 00:03:55,880
mental health, loneliness, all 
of these things that now we're 

69
00:03:55,890 --> 00:03:58,620
starting to talk about in terms 
of like mental health, even 

70
00:03:58,630 --> 00:04:03,770
epidemics like, hmm. 
A lot of it, he argues, is born 

71
00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:09,540
out of this, this, this 
basically consistent pursuit of 

72
00:04:09,550 --> 00:04:13,200
comfort and that when you're 
comfortable, nothing ever 

73
00:04:13,210 --> 00:04:16,440
changes and you don't change 
when nothing like, and, and I 

74
00:04:16,450 --> 00:04:19,640
think like, I think we know it, 
but like you're not gonna grow 

75
00:04:19,649 --> 00:04:22,460
much if you're only ever 
comfortable. 

76
00:04:23,010 --> 00:04:25,760
And so anyways, it's, it's not, 
it's not a Christian book. 

77
00:04:25,770 --> 00:04:28,060
It's, it's not, it's not a bad 
book. 

78
00:04:28,070 --> 00:04:30,720
It's actually quite good and 
challenging. 

79
00:04:30,930 --> 00:04:34,850
I think there's really cool 
implications for Christians in 

80
00:04:34,860 --> 00:04:38,570
that book. 
But you know, I think it, it 

81
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,340
brings me back to the point 
like, what are we missing? 

82
00:04:42,270 --> 00:04:44,680
Because we're pursuing comfort, 
right? 

83
00:04:44,690 --> 00:04:47,160
What do we walk past in the 
pursuit of comfort? 

84
00:04:47,170 --> 00:04:49,350
What do we ignore in the name of
comfort? 

85
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,560
What do we justify because of 
our, you know, endless pursuit 

86
00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:56,420
of just simply a comfortable 
lifestyle? 

87
00:04:56,770 --> 00:05:00,930
And then when we turn to texts 
as well, I think, and we have 

88
00:05:00,940 --> 00:05:04,680
this natural inclination to go, 
oh, that makes me uncomfortable.

89
00:05:04,750 --> 00:05:07,840
Like, let's just skip the thing.
Let's just forget. 

90
00:05:07,850 --> 00:05:10,380
Like, let's pretend that it's 
not here and move on to 

91
00:05:10,390 --> 00:05:13,710
something else that maybe maybe 
challenges me in a more 

92
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,330
comfortable way. 
Yeah. 

93
00:05:15,340 --> 00:05:18,130
Yeah, there are tears. 
There are tears of, of like, I 

94
00:05:18,140 --> 00:05:22,480
don't mind being comforted or a 
challenge when it comes to, you 

95
00:05:22,490 --> 00:05:27,610
know, my, my moral choices out 
of mind being challenged when it

96
00:05:27,620 --> 00:05:32,670
comes to like living, living 
into community and the Kingdom. 

97
00:05:32,820 --> 00:05:35,870
But when it comes to money, like
that's like, I think it's one of

98
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,230
those things that we, we clasp. 
I think we, we tend to hold our 

99
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:49,280
fists a little closer and, and 
sometimes, especially right now 

100
00:05:49,410 --> 00:05:53,880
in our, in our world where there
is more uncertainty than what 

101
00:05:53,890 --> 00:05:58,440
feels like there has been with, 
you know, something like, you 

102
00:05:58,450 --> 00:06:01,080
know, the Strait of Hormuz, it's
open, it's closed, it's open, 

103
00:06:01,090 --> 00:06:03,000
it's closed. 
And it's like gas prices or 

104
00:06:03,010 --> 00:06:07,760
yoyoing and, and, and all of 
these other, you know, other, 

105
00:06:07,770 --> 00:06:12,600
all these other aspects of just 
are, are uncertain economic 

106
00:06:12,610 --> 00:06:17,590
climate that are usually the 
first response is how can I 

107
00:06:18,140 --> 00:06:20,910
protect myself? 
How can I, you know, like I even

108
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,470
in my YouTube feed, I saw like 
multiple videos from like 

109
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,570
financial people who were like, 
here's the here's the top five 

110
00:06:28,580 --> 00:06:32,430
ways you can protect yourself 
during these uncertain economic 

111
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,070
times. 
And like, you know, there's, 

112
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,790
there's wisdom to making wise 
decisions right now. 

113
00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:43,810
You know, like even in in our 
own household, you know, my wife

114
00:06:43,820 --> 00:06:46,700
and I are, our conversations 
have shifted a little bit, 

115
00:06:46,710 --> 00:06:49,620
right? 
And it's not, you know, I think 

116
00:06:49,630 --> 00:06:54,290
there's a wisdom to that. 
And it's not an overreaction to 

117
00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,730
say, yeah, you should probably 
be using this as an opportunity 

118
00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:02,910
to be even more mindful about 
how you are choosing to employ 

119
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,460
your resources, whatever those 
resources are. 

120
00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:09,740
Certainly the way in which you 
are using the money that you 

121
00:07:09,750 --> 00:07:14,580
have, you need to be more, you 
know, I think I'll leave it at 

122
00:07:14,590 --> 00:07:16,230
that. 
We should be using this as an 

123
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:21,910
opportunity to be more careful 
and conscious about what we're 

124
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,940
doing with it. 
We should use as an invitation 

125
00:07:23,950 --> 00:07:26,250
to think a little bit more 
critically about it, for sure. 

126
00:07:26,260 --> 00:07:31,270
So yes, absolutely be wise and 
make wise decisions. 

127
00:07:31,330 --> 00:07:34,640
And I think that what you're 
bringing U is what we all feel, 

128
00:07:34,650 --> 00:07:40,350
which is less the wisdom side of
things and more the fear side of

129
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:41,270
things. 
Yes, right. 

130
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,780
Because that's the, I think at 
the end of the day, that's the 

131
00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:47,310
reality is that there's not many
things in the world that can 

132
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:52,670
make us fearful like money can. 
And you know, maybe you have it,

133
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,490
you don't have enough, maybe you
don't have it. 

134
00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,070
How do you get like, there's a 
lot of different scenarios where

135
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,420
money can cause you to be 
fearful, fearful of losing what 

136
00:08:01,430 --> 00:08:06,800
you have, fearful that you will 
never have enough there. 

137
00:08:06,810 --> 00:08:09,190
You know, it's not just that if 
you don't have money, you're 

138
00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,360
fearful. 
I think many people who do have 

139
00:08:11,370 --> 00:08:13,860
enough are also fearful. 
I'm gonna say like that, that's 

140
00:08:13,870 --> 00:08:16,730
another reality is that it 
doesn't seem like I, I think 

141
00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:19,270
that there are, you know, people
that experience genuine 

142
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,930
scarcity. 
But even when you are, you know 

143
00:08:22,940 --> 00:08:26,990
what, even when you don't have 
the threat of, of, you know, not

144
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,090
being able to pay your bills or 
whatever it is, still, it can 

145
00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:35,429
still be all consuming and, and 
you know, very fear inducing 

146
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,159
just because you know, like 
it's, it's scary the thought of 

147
00:08:38,169 --> 00:08:40,480
losing what you have, even if 
you have a lot. 

148
00:08:40,549 --> 00:08:42,360
Yeah. 
And I think the, the reality 

149
00:08:42,370 --> 00:08:50,950
about money and like economic 
sort of standing or position in,

150
00:08:51,030 --> 00:08:54,140
in the world, it feels a little 
bit to me like, and, and I think

151
00:08:54,150 --> 00:08:57,320
maybe we've talked about this a 
bit, but like a frog in boiling 

152
00:08:57,330 --> 00:08:59,880
water, Hmm. 
You know, So what happens as you

153
00:08:59,890 --> 00:09:04,140
grow right? 
Like, you know, you enter the 

154
00:09:04,150 --> 00:09:07,750
workforce, whether that's after 
high school or after university 

155
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,580
or after graduate degrees and 
you grow in your position and 

156
00:09:11,590 --> 00:09:13,610
your income grows. 
And what happens? 

157
00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:16,130
Well, for many people, many 
people get married and then you 

158
00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:18,490
have double income and then 
maybe you have kids, maybe you 

159
00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:21,150
don't have kids, but then you 
surround yourself with like 

160
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,510
minded and you know, similar 
tier kind of families and 

161
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,810
economic reality, right? 
And everything grows and you 

162
00:09:28,820 --> 00:09:30,970
grow together and people are 
buying homes and they're buying 

163
00:09:30,980 --> 00:09:33,030
new homes and people are buying 
cars and they're buying new cars

164
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,280
and taking vacations. 
And like the whole temperature 

165
00:09:35,290 --> 00:09:40,120
just kind of rises slowly. 
And this is like, this is the, 

166
00:09:40,130 --> 00:09:43,420
the I'm using air quotes here. 
Like this is the expected or 

167
00:09:43,430 --> 00:09:46,730
typical trajectory in the West, 
which is like, you get a job and

168
00:09:46,740 --> 00:09:49,520
then you get a better job and 
you make some money and then you

169
00:09:49,530 --> 00:09:52,480
make more money and everything 
scales and your vacation scale 

170
00:09:52,490 --> 00:09:56,670
and you're spending scales and 
your house scales and the amount

171
00:09:56,680 --> 00:09:59,720
of garages you have scales and 
the cars to put in them. 

172
00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:03,510
And like it's just this endless 
pursuit of more but you know, 

173
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,630
you're not actually even 
necessarily chasing them more. 

174
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,410
It's just that everything creeps
U slowly and you just don't even

175
00:10:12,420 --> 00:10:16,520
realize it. 
And so I think that what can 

176
00:10:16,530 --> 00:10:22,170
grow with that then also is if 
you are, you know, if your 

177
00:10:22,260 --> 00:10:25,670
economic reality is growing, I 
think the fear can also grow 

178
00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:26,930
with it. 
Yeah. 

179
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,010
So it's not that the more you 
have, the less fear you have. 

180
00:10:30,060 --> 00:10:32,480
It's that everything scales at 
the same rate. 

181
00:10:32,490 --> 00:10:34,410
Yes, yes. 
And so it never feels like 

182
00:10:34,420 --> 00:10:36,100
there's enough. 
Well, but do you remember 10 

183
00:10:36,110 --> 00:10:39,790
years ago when like, you could 
hardly make ends meet and, you 

184
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,490
know, early on in life and in 
marriage and, and trying to 

185
00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:44,960
figure out like, how are we OK, 
Right. 

186
00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:48,610
Like you have 4 diapers like. 
We had nothing when we first got

187
00:10:48,620 --> 00:10:52,250
married, right? 
So we had so little and and 

188
00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:55,170
like, yeah, we had moments that 
were like a little fear 

189
00:10:55,180 --> 00:10:56,450
inducing. 
But yeah, you're right. 

190
00:10:56,460 --> 00:10:59,130
It, it, it has, it has scaled. 
It's just at a different level, 

191
00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:01,410
you know? 
Right and like the fear scales 

192
00:11:01,420 --> 00:11:06,030
with it because what you 
perceive as enough scales. 

193
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,870
So I heard this great story and 
it was past named Brian Lauritz.

194
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,940
He passers in the States and he 
and his wife maybe I've told 

195
00:11:13,950 --> 00:11:15,990
this story in the podcast. 
And so if I have, you know, we 

196
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,240
can cut it out in editing. 
But he, he, he tells the story 

197
00:11:20,250 --> 00:11:22,660
about starting, he planted a 
church. 

198
00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:24,900
And so like very early on, like,
you know, only maybe a couple, 

199
00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:26,700
100 people, they're planting 
this church. 

200
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:30,870
And early on in his ministry, he
and his wife together planting 

201
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,080
this church and making very 
little. 

202
00:11:32,090 --> 00:11:35,720
And then the church kind of 
exploded and grew very rapidly. 

203
00:11:35,730 --> 00:11:38,260
And he's like every year the 
board came and gave me a raise. 

204
00:11:38,330 --> 00:11:40,800
And every year the board came 
back and gave me another raise. 

205
00:11:40,810 --> 00:11:43,320
And he tells the story that he 
and his wife sitting down 

206
00:11:43,330 --> 00:11:45,820
finally and saying, OK, we've 
got to sort this out because, 

207
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,910
uh, you know, we don't like the 
rate at which like the church is

208
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,160
growing and that's fantastic and
that's incredible. 

209
00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:54,350
And put our income is like, we 
need to figure out what is 

210
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:55,390
enough. 
Hmm. 

211
00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:58,370
And what he does, what he and 
his wife sat down to decide was,

212
00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:01,590
OK, let's figure out now what 
enough looks like because we 

213
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,810
don't want to wait until 20 
years down the road because 

214
00:12:03,820 --> 00:12:05,180
enough is going to change, 
right? 

215
00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:07,930
And if you don't define it for 
yourself, it's going to define 

216
00:12:07,940 --> 00:12:11,110
it for you. 
So they sat down. 

217
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:12,680
They said this is what enough 
is. 

218
00:12:12,990 --> 00:12:14,680
You know, we're gonna. 
So at that point, I think they 

219
00:12:14,690 --> 00:12:16,290
were both working. 
They're like, we're gonna, we're

220
00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:20,690
gonna continue to accept raises,
but everything that we make 

221
00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:23,380
beyond enough, we're going to 
give away. 

222
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,530
Hmm. 
And so it was no longer a 

223
00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:28,350
question of like, OK, where is 
our, what's our 10%? 

224
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,110
And is our 10% gonna scale with 
our, with our income? 

225
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,870
And is it gross or is it net 
anyways? 

226
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,270
And like, well, you know, what 
do you want? 

227
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,290
That was no longer the 
conversation. 

228
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:39,130
The conversation was, we know 
what our baseline is. 

229
00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:41,630
We know what enough is for us 
and for our family. 

230
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:45,440
And we're going to choose to 
live on enough and everything 

231
00:12:45,450 --> 00:12:48,500
else we're going to give away. 
And I, I love that story. 

232
00:12:48,510 --> 00:12:52,400
I think the challenge for most 
of us in that is, shoot, it's 

233
00:12:52,410 --> 00:12:54,360
very hard to define what enough 
is. 

234
00:12:54,410 --> 00:12:56,730
Yes, Because if I'm left to 
define what enough is for me, 

235
00:12:56,740 --> 00:12:58,770
that's where like the fear 
creeps back in and I go, well, 

236
00:12:58,780 --> 00:13:02,040
I'd like to have this much saved
away and I'd like to have this 

237
00:13:02,050 --> 00:13:04,600
much in an emergency fund. 
And I'd like to have this paid 

238
00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:07,920
down and, you know, no car 
payments And this like you start

239
00:13:07,930 --> 00:13:12,220
like it enough can balloon if 
you're left to your own your own

240
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:13,830
devices. 
Figure it out. 

241
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,240
That's where our minds are going
right now. 

242
00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:19,340
Like for my family, like it's 
like, OK, as, you know, as we 

243
00:13:19,350 --> 00:13:22,060
grow in our, our careers, it's 
like, OK, yeah, yeah. 

244
00:13:22,130 --> 00:13:25,330
They want to pay down our house.
Yeah, yeah, we want to save for,

245
00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:27,790
for eventual retirement. 
Yeah. 

246
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,350
But it's always the details of, 
of how you go about that. 

247
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,470
And then also RB scaling our 
generosity with that, right. 

248
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,730
Like those are, you know, those 
are like, there's this weird 

249
00:13:40,780 --> 00:13:47,650
challenge of like financial 
wisdom mixed with like the 

250
00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:50,550
foolishness of generosity. 
And like the, you know, in that 

251
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:54,200
sort of like biblical sense of 
foolishness, like, like the, the

252
00:13:54,210 --> 00:13:57,040
foolish ways in which we're 
like, we need to be extravagant 

253
00:13:57,050 --> 00:14:00,000
in our generosity. 
And also how do we, you know, 

254
00:14:00,010 --> 00:14:01,660
like take care of ourselves? 
How do we. 

255
00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:03,920
Yeah, like and and yeah, not an 
easy answer. 

256
00:14:03,990 --> 00:14:06,680
No, this is this is what I want 
for myself. 

257
00:14:06,690 --> 00:14:08,760
And I'm not saying this as 
someone who's figured it out. 

258
00:14:08,770 --> 00:14:10,860
I'm saying this is what I would 
like. 

259
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:14,260
This is what I strive for and 
hope for and pray for. 

260
00:14:14,270 --> 00:14:22,950
It's like I want to be as wise 
with enough so that I can be as 

261
00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:27,140
ridiculously generous with more 
like that. 

262
00:14:27,150 --> 00:14:30,600
I think that's the balance for 
me is like, you can't just start

263
00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:33,850
giving everything away, hmm, 
until you have nothing. 

264
00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:37,250
I mean, maybe in very rare 
cases, like I, I don't think 

265
00:14:37,260 --> 00:14:40,600
that the general Christian 
follower of Jesus, you listening

266
00:14:40,610 --> 00:14:43,420
to this podcast are being 
challenged to, to take a vow of 

267
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:49,200
poverty and to go live, you 
know, in, you know, whether 

268
00:14:49,210 --> 00:14:54,600
that's in a monastery or some 
sort of like intentional living 

269
00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:56,530
community. 
I don't think many, like, I 

270
00:14:56,540 --> 00:14:58,790
don't think that's a call on 
everybody's life. 

271
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,970
I don't think a valve of poverty
is. 

272
00:15:01,980 --> 00:15:06,490
I do know that for many it is 
and you know, have seen the, the

273
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:09,930
fruit of that in people's lives.
I think it's fascinating. 

274
00:15:09,940 --> 00:15:11,970
And this is taking us in a 
different direction and so we 

275
00:15:11,980 --> 00:15:15,730
can steer back really quickly. 
I think it is fascinating the 

276
00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:21,990
like the move or like the buy in
to things like minimalism and 

277
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,970
tiny homes. 
Hmm is astronomical. 

278
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:26,430
Hmm. 
And I think it's because we're 

279
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,910
starting to feel the the impact 
and the effects of having too 

280
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,450
much, like too much stuff. 
And so you have a bigger house, 

281
00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:38,250
you fill it with stuff that you 
don't use. 

282
00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:41,050
And it's like my garage, man, My
garage. 

283
00:15:41,060 --> 00:15:44,230
I would love to fit a car in our
garage because that's what it 

284
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,890
was designed for, but it's 
filled with stuff. 

285
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:49,900
I can't do it, but since we 
moved, it's just I've been 

286
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:53,900
working nonstop feels like to 
try to clear it out and give as 

287
00:15:53,910 --> 00:15:56,750
much away and donate what we can
scrap metal, the other stuff and

288
00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,340
like it. 
It just you, you naturally fill 

289
00:16:00,350 --> 00:16:03,380
the space that you have. 
And I think anybody who has 

290
00:16:03,390 --> 00:16:07,260
moved from a smaller house into 
a larger house, whether you've 

291
00:16:07,270 --> 00:16:08,960
rented or bought, that doesn't 
matter. 

292
00:16:09,010 --> 00:16:11,840
You know, you fill the space 
that you have. 

293
00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:14,360
So there's this great quote and 
it's usually used, I think in 

294
00:16:14,370 --> 00:16:16,400
architecture circles. 
And I don't know who said it. 

295
00:16:16,410 --> 00:16:18,760
And it might be made-up and it 
might could actually carry any 

296
00:16:18,770 --> 00:16:21,210
weight for architects. 
So I know we have some of those 

297
00:16:21,220 --> 00:16:22,180
who listen. 
Yeah. 

298
00:16:22,380 --> 00:16:25,710
But there's this. 
Are we in the beginning? 

299
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,700
So we design our buildings, 
right? 

300
00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:30,400
And then our buildings design 
us. 

301
00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:35,060
Oh, we design our spaces, and 
then you live in them. 

302
00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:39,260
But eventually those spaces will
impact how you live in them. 

303
00:16:39,750 --> 00:16:42,410
And so, you know, that checks 
out in my mind. 

304
00:16:42,420 --> 00:16:43,600
That makes sense. 
Yeah. 

305
00:16:44,940 --> 00:16:49,200
So, you know, we, we maybe were 
very, very intentional in the 

306
00:16:49,210 --> 00:16:52,670
beginning, but then no matter 
what space we have, you'll fill 

307
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,140
it. 
And you know, that's, that's, 

308
00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:56,430
that's true for physical space. 
It's true for emotional and 

309
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,210
relational space. 
Like you need to carve out 

310
00:16:59,220 --> 00:17:01,590
margin. 
Otherwise it just fills with 

311
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,770
crap like it. 
I don't know if I can say crap 

312
00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:06,099
on our podcast, but I. 
Just I said it in a sermon once 

313
00:17:06,109 --> 00:17:08,630
and I didn't get any minimal. 
Feedback. 

314
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,410
Yeah, good deal. 
Junk with junk. 

315
00:17:12,770 --> 00:17:15,750
So I I just think that that's 
the that is often the struggle 

316
00:17:15,819 --> 00:17:19,390
of, of the human being is we 
fill it. 

317
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,670
So yeah, when it comes to when 
it comes to money, when it comes

318
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,720
to enough, when it comes to 
scale, when it comes to scaling,

319
00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:29,190
I think the sooner you can sit 
down and have those 

320
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,170
conversations about enough, the 
better chance you will have. 

321
00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:35,110
Hmm. 
Because again, like I see it, I 

322
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:38,450
see the the fleet to minimalism 
is this just a complete 

323
00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:43,370
abandoning of material 
possessions that fill and have 

324
00:17:43,380 --> 00:17:45,530
no use? 
It's like, well, let's have very

325
00:17:45,540 --> 00:17:47,250
few things that all serve a 
purpose. 

326
00:17:47,260 --> 00:17:53,100
I go, yeah, that sounds great, 
but there's something about the 

327
00:17:53,110 --> 00:17:56,600
way our society operates right 
now that just so pushes against 

328
00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:57,460
it. 
I find it fascinating. 

329
00:17:57,470 --> 00:17:59,800
So that the minimalism movement,
a couple of like the really 

330
00:17:59,810 --> 00:18:02,680
prominent figures in the 
minimalism movement are pastors 

331
00:18:02,770 --> 00:18:04,620
or like ex pastors. 
Yeah. 

332
00:18:04,790 --> 00:18:07,700
So they're not not X pastors 
who've left the church, but like

333
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:11,340
they've moved on from they kind 
of dabbled in minimalism out of 

334
00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:15,580
a spiritual practice and then 
found very quickly, oh, this is 

335
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:19,660
resonating with millions beyond 
the church walls. 

336
00:18:19,710 --> 00:18:21,940
And so now our writing and 
speaking and kind of leading 

337
00:18:21,950 --> 00:18:25,910
into that fascinating to me 
again though, that that it was 

338
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,130
born out of people who from a 
spiritual, disciplined, 

339
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:35,970
practiced way realized I have 
too much and it's hampering my 

340
00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:38,310
relationship with God and it's 
hampering my relationship with 

341
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,550
others. 
And I need to sort this out. 

342
00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:44,650
And now it's just blown up into 
this like cult of minimalism, 

343
00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:46,850
but. 
And it can become a cult. 

344
00:18:46,860 --> 00:18:49,890
It can become this thing that 
you kind of obsess over and and 

345
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:51,190
turn. 
And in the same way that we do 

346
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,460
with so many things in our life,
you can you can become sort of 

347
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:58,940
obsessed with chasing that 
particular thing, even in an 

348
00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:01,010
unhelpful way. 
I I would say like, I would say 

349
00:19:01,020 --> 00:19:03,250
it can become an idol just like 
anything else. 

350
00:19:03,260 --> 00:19:05,520
Yeah, yeah, right. 
I think it's a helpful tool and 

351
00:19:05,530 --> 00:19:08,440
a helpful framing, but it can 
become an idol if it is the 

352
00:19:08,450 --> 00:19:10,600
thing that you are pursuing. 
Yeah, yeah. 

353
00:19:10,650 --> 00:19:13,200
Alright. 
I want to get specific. 

354
00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:17,280
OK. 
So you talked yesterday kind of 

355
00:19:17,290 --> 00:19:25,310
in response to, you know, seeing
this ungenerous rich man, we 

356
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,040
talked about what generosity 
ought to look like. 

357
00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:33,190
And you know, you use that 
really like like that you read 

358
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,260
that CS Lewis quote that like 
made me like my skin crawl a 

359
00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:41,380
little bit in terms of how like 
convicting it was just that, you

360
00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:45,140
know, like we should, you know, 
we should have, we should be 

361
00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:48,540
uncomfortable with how much we 
give basically was the you know,

362
00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:50,780
the the gist of it. 
If I could summarize it in a 

363
00:19:50,790 --> 00:19:56,510
small little sentence, but I 
want to get specific a little 

364
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:04,130
bit on the kind of say like 10 
percent, 90% and say, you know, 

365
00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:07,770
you talked about 10% as a, as a 
baseline that works toward 

366
00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:10,510
obedience and that and that some
of us need to work toward 

367
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,050
obedience. 
That's where we need to get to 

368
00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:14,190
some of us, we need to get to a 
place where it's like this is 

369
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,630
this is what God has called us 
toward in Scripture. 

370
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,410
And as Jesus so often does, he 
calls us to more, right? 

371
00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:25,230
He calls us to, to greater 
degrees of generosity and a life

372
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,370
of generosity. 
So there are two different 

373
00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:32,500
potential pitfalls. 
That I could see different 

374
00:20:32,510 --> 00:20:34,780
people who are wired differently
going down. 

375
00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:38,880
One of those pitfalls could be 
toward what you could categorize

376
00:20:38,890 --> 00:20:41,750
as like legalism. 
You could say, like, you know, I

377
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,820
need to get toward my 10%. 
And once I get to my 10%, I'll, 

378
00:20:44,830 --> 00:20:47,620
I'll start to kind of like, you 
know, I'll inch toward 11, you 

379
00:20:47,630 --> 00:20:50,620
know, 11 and a half, 1315, 
whatever. 

380
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:54,020
And the more I do that, the more
in line I am with God and the 

381
00:20:54,030 --> 00:20:55,310
more that God will show his 
face. 

382
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,040
It's it's, you know, you talked 
about like the Pharisees 

383
00:20:58,050 --> 00:21:01,050
equating blessing and wealth, 
but and you're almost gonna be 

384
00:21:01,060 --> 00:21:04,610
doing the same thing as you work
toward generosity. 

385
00:21:04,790 --> 00:21:07,770
And and so that's, you know, can
become a form of works 

386
00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:12,010
righteousness in a way. 
The other potential pitfall 

387
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,760
veers the other way in that yes,
we may work toward that kind of 

388
00:21:16,770 --> 00:21:23,190
that baseline 10%, but we can 
turn generosity into a non 

389
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:28,950
specific sort of nebulous goal 
with with no real aim, you know,

390
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,440
like we turn surrendering and 
being generous with all that we 

391
00:21:32,450 --> 00:21:34,960
have and to some sort of like 
empty platitude. 

392
00:21:34,970 --> 00:21:37,920
Yeah, right. 
And and so like what what's the 

393
00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:40,900
approach? 
You talked about intention. 

394
00:21:40,910 --> 00:21:42,120
So I think that's got to be a 
part of it. 

395
00:21:42,130 --> 00:21:46,000
Like, you know, like that are 
our intention needs to be that 

396
00:21:46,010 --> 00:21:48,040
we're not going to just muster 
that we don't we're not going to

397
00:21:48,050 --> 00:21:50,240
veer naturally toward 
generosity. 

398
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,960
So there needs to be like an 
intention toward working toward 

399
00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:56,180
what God would have for us. 
But just wondering if you could 

400
00:21:56,190 --> 00:21:57,820
talk about that a little bit. 
For sure. 

401
00:21:57,830 --> 00:22:00,620
So, yeah, a couple different 
ways right to go. 

402
00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:03,410
I had somebody come up to me 
after the sermon and said, you 

403
00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:05,490
forgot a verse. 
And I was like, well, I forgot a

404
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:10,170
lot of verses about giving and, 
you know, but this this 

405
00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:13,250
individual said, she said, the 
one that gets me all the time 

406
00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:16,030
is, is the line. 
God loves a cheerful giver. 

407
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,810
And I go, yeah, you know, so 
like that that was what was 

408
00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:22,230
landing with her was like, OK, 
this this challenge being 

409
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,650
balanced with the attitude, 
right. 

410
00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:28,020
And I think this is what you 
mentioned and this is what we 

411
00:22:28,030 --> 00:22:30,190
talked about a little bit in 
terms of intention. 

412
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:36,100
And here, you know, the line is 
G&G Jesus's response to the 

413
00:22:36,110 --> 00:22:39,600
Pharisees. 
He says God knows your heart is 

414
00:22:39,610 --> 00:22:42,380
like you're trying to justify 
yourselves in front of people 

415
00:22:42,450 --> 00:22:46,370
like to to one another and to 
everyone around you. 

416
00:22:46,850 --> 00:22:49,360
No matter how much you try to 
justify yourself, God knows 

417
00:22:49,370 --> 00:22:52,230
what's really going on. 
And so I think that's the line 

418
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,800
that I think that's the line 
that we need to have resonating 

419
00:22:57,870 --> 00:23:03,760
in the back of our mind and not 
out of like a fearful, Oh my 

420
00:23:03,770 --> 00:23:06,250
goodness, God knows my heart. 
And yeah, what if I give out of 

421
00:23:06,260 --> 00:23:10,430
this wrong intention, right? 
I, I just think we need to 

422
00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:17,610
remember that and use it as a 
prayer almost to invite God to 

423
00:23:17,620 --> 00:23:21,310
reorder our intentions. 
Like God help me, help me to do 

424
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,240
this cheerfully because maybe 
listen, like I'll be honest, 

425
00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:27,430
like maybe some people don't. 
Yeah, maybe. 

426
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,640
So here's one of the other 
pitfalls is that you do, you 

427
00:23:30,650 --> 00:23:36,100
give 10% because you have to and
you are just unhappy about that,

428
00:23:36,170 --> 00:23:39,880
right, Right. 
So that's a, I would argue like 

429
00:23:39,890 --> 00:23:42,010
that's a poor intention. 
Hmm. 

430
00:23:42,050 --> 00:23:46,640
And that's a poor motivation, 
like poor motivation to leave it

431
00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:50,160
at as like, OK, fine, I'm doing 
this because I have to, right? 

432
00:23:50,170 --> 00:23:52,320
That's not, that's not the heart
behind it. 

433
00:23:52,370 --> 00:23:54,980
So This is why I think we 
struggle so much with obedience 

434
00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:58,560
like that word obedience, 
because I don't like being told 

435
00:23:58,570 --> 00:24:00,860
I don't do exactly. 
I don't want to be told what I 

436
00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:04,520
have to do. 
So I won't or I will, but I'll 

437
00:24:04,530 --> 00:24:09,050
do it begrudgingly. 
And I think that if that's your 

438
00:24:09,060 --> 00:24:11,410
heart, like if you know that 
that's rattling around inside of

439
00:24:11,420 --> 00:24:14,590
you, then that's an invitation 
for you to pray that prayer. 

440
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,010
OK, God, you know my heart. 
And you know what I'm wrestling 

441
00:24:17,020 --> 00:24:19,260
with here. 
So I need to hear from you on 

442
00:24:19,270 --> 00:24:21,550
this. 
Like maybe listen, I'm not a 

443
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,150
pastor who's going to say like, 
you know, every single person 

444
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,730
has to be tithing 10% all the 
time or like, I don't know, your

445
00:24:27,740 --> 00:24:29,270
key can't be part of this church
like that. 

446
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,000
How horrible of a theology is 
that? 

447
00:24:31,010 --> 00:24:33,930
That's why we say, hey, if 
you're between 0 and 10%, 

448
00:24:34,620 --> 00:24:38,590
everybody has to start 
somewhere, work at growing 

449
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,420
toward 10%. 
What does that say? 

450
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:43,660
So I said this yesterday and I 
didn't like unpack it, but what 

451
00:24:43,670 --> 00:24:46,920
does that imply? 
It implies that not everybody 

452
00:24:47,710 --> 00:24:51,150
is. 
And it it also implies that you 

453
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,110
might be in a season of life 
where it's very hard to jump 

454
00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:56,520
immediately to 10%, be like, OK,
good, here we go. 

455
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:59,970
Work toward getting there. 
Because I think that that's the 

456
00:24:59,980 --> 00:25:02,380
right thing to do. 
And I think that there's good 

457
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:05,430
biblical basis for it. 
But if you're gonna be fine, 

458
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,550
I'll do 10% and I'm gonna do it 
begrudgingly. 

459
00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:13,280
And I'm not gonna like it. 
A I just think, man, God's gonna

460
00:25:13,290 --> 00:25:14,700
surprise you. 
Hmm. 

461
00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:17,580
But be, I think that's the 
conversation that you got you, 

462
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:21,140
you, you have to have with God. 
So like we can take the legalism

463
00:25:21,190 --> 00:25:23,940
thing a couple of different 
ways, even on its own. 

464
00:25:25,270 --> 00:25:28,580
So, you know, that's, I think 
that's the invitation. 

465
00:25:28,630 --> 00:25:32,980
Pray because God knows your 
heart and invite God to reveal 

466
00:25:32,990 --> 00:25:35,780
your heart and invite God to 
reveal the reasons why you're 

467
00:25:35,790 --> 00:25:38,500
having a hard time taking this 
step. 

468
00:25:38,510 --> 00:25:40,070
And, and what is it, What is it 
about? 

469
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,970
What's going on? 
Like, what is it about the 

470
00:25:41,980 --> 00:25:44,260
situation or circumstance? 
What is it about me? 

471
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:47,440
What is it about our, like, my 
financial spending habits that 

472
00:25:47,450 --> 00:25:50,580
makes this so difficult for me 
to even fathom? 

473
00:25:51,730 --> 00:25:54,570
But I think the flip side is you
get to 10%. 

474
00:25:54,730 --> 00:25:59,840
And I didn't hammer this point 
maybe as hard as I could have in

475
00:25:59,850 --> 00:26:03,080
the sermon yesterday. 
Which is to say, I think a lot 

476
00:26:03,090 --> 00:26:06,610
of people get to 10% and they 
just click off and it's like, 

477
00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:09,420
OK, fine, I do the 10% and good 
enough. 

478
00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:11,500
Like I'm doing the obedience 
thing. 

479
00:26:11,570 --> 00:26:13,720
Away we go. 
You put it on autopilot, 

480
00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:16,440
especially if you're like, you 
know, you've set it up with, you

481
00:26:16,450 --> 00:26:19,220
know, with your church and, and 
charities to like just 

482
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:22,770
automatically withdraw from your
account, your visa or whatever, 

483
00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:24,170
you know, like. 
Yeah, Yeah, I do that. 

484
00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:26,750
We do that. 
So we give VIPAR preauthorized 

485
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,710
remittance. 
That's our, you know, monthly 

486
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,410
program that our denomination 
uses. 

487
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,470
And I gotta admit like that's 
it's so easy. 

488
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,110
I love it because I don't have 
to think about it practically 

489
00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:45,490
and I don't have to remember, 
but I also don't have to think 

490
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:47,850
about it, right? 
And I don't have to remember. 

491
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:54,870
And that that I think actually 
is harmful in a different way 

492
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:58,260
because now it's just I'm not 
even thinking about it. 

493
00:26:58,630 --> 00:27:00,120
Well, I go back to that CS Lewis
quote. 

494
00:27:00,130 --> 00:27:02,890
So like, if I can just not even 
think about it, is it enough? 

495
00:27:03,390 --> 00:27:06,420
Probably not, right. 
Like I should be thinking about,

496
00:27:06,430 --> 00:27:08,780
hey, OK, when is this coming out
and where is it going? 

497
00:27:08,790 --> 00:27:10,600
And where is this piece going 
out? 

498
00:27:10,610 --> 00:27:14,560
And like you, you should I, I 
should be thinking about it. 

499
00:27:15,410 --> 00:27:18,840
And I do think that that's come 
back to intention that like it 

500
00:27:18,850 --> 00:27:22,120
should be an intentional act. 
So I remember growing up, we 

501
00:27:22,130 --> 00:27:24,710
would go to Ghanaian 
Presbyterian Church in Montreal 

502
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:27,710
and their services were like 3 
1/2 hours long and they gave out

503
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,650
snacks part way through. 
We had friends who were there 

504
00:27:29,660 --> 00:27:31,980
and like every so often my dad 
would be invited to go preach or

505
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:34,440
there'd be something happening 
within the city and like be 

506
00:27:34,450 --> 00:27:38,830
happening at, at the, the church
downtown Montreal. 

507
00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:42,370
And I absolutely love this. 
I will never, ever forget it, 

508
00:27:43,860 --> 00:27:48,430
but that particular congregation
would dance their offering to 

509
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,930
the front. 
Music was playing. 

510
00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:53,950
It was a big thing. 
And like, I can just like I can 

511
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,370
even feel I'm like, what this 
is, it's a show like what's 

512
00:27:57,380 --> 00:27:58,850
happening? 
Like you were doing it in front 

513
00:27:58,860 --> 00:28:01,230
of people, Like what is this? 
And then going like, no, this is

514
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,210
pure joy worship. 
This is part of worship. 

515
00:28:04,220 --> 00:28:10,750
It is absolute pure joy to bring
these these offerings to God and

516
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,810
say, God, you're going to do way
more with this than me. 

517
00:28:12,820 --> 00:28:16,070
So let's celebrate that and 
let's watch what happens. 

518
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,520
And I was a kid when we started 
going to this church, you know, 

519
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,900
again, not often, but every, you
know, every maybe kind of once a

520
00:28:21,910 --> 00:28:22,940
year or twice a year kind of 
thing. 

521
00:28:23,860 --> 00:28:27,850
And then growing up, going to 
seminary, going through 

522
00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:29,430
undergrad a couple times here 
and there. 

523
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,490
But I will never forget that 
because it just feels so 

524
00:28:33,540 --> 00:28:38,310
different than my like 
preauthorized remittance that 

525
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,300
slips quietly out of my account 
on, I guess the same day every 

526
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:44,450
week or every month rather every
month. 

527
00:28:44,780 --> 00:28:50,360
And like that for me that I, I 
do, I will say this as a pastor,

528
00:28:51,140 --> 00:28:54,590
we will always have mechanisms 
to make it easy for you to give 

529
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,730
because we want to make it easy 
for you to give. 

530
00:28:56,780 --> 00:29:00,230
But there's a theological 
tension that I feel always about

531
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,650
that because I want this to be 
an act of worship, like you've 

532
00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:06,460
said. 
And I want this to be something 

533
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:08,630
that we lean into together as a 
community. 

534
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,560
And I want this to be something 
that we celebrate, and that's 

535
00:29:12,570 --> 00:29:14,160
hard to do when it happens 
quietly. 

536
00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:17,680
This, this Sunday is, I think, 
theoretically supposed to be a 

537
00:29:17,690 --> 00:29:19,220
Sunday where we take up an 
offering. 

538
00:29:19,230 --> 00:29:22,270
Maybe we need to, maybe we need 
to talk about the way in which 

539
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,520
we can up the intentionality, or
for the anyway we can talk 

540
00:29:27,530 --> 00:29:29,300
without stopping tomorrow or 
something. 

541
00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:32,040
Absolutely. 
I just think it's helpful to say

542
00:29:32,050 --> 00:29:35,540
so. 
Yeah, you're you're 2 errors. 

543
00:29:35,550 --> 00:29:37,860
Have we covered them? 
I, I know like the legalism 

544
00:29:37,870 --> 00:29:41,720
thing there, you can feel it in 
a, in a few different ways. 

545
00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:43,680
Hmm. 
Let me just touch on the last 

546
00:29:43,690 --> 00:29:47,220
piece of legalism that I think 
you mentioned, which is that, 

547
00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:51,640
you know, the the more you grow 
your, your tithe into 

548
00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:54,560
generosity, into offering, then 
the more God will bless you. 

549
00:29:54,890 --> 00:29:58,410
So that's the exact way that the
Pharisees were living and they 

550
00:29:58,420 --> 00:30:04,660
were living as though it was an 
exchange that they could live in

551
00:30:04,990 --> 00:30:12,010
and enjoy the comfort of. 
And you know, I think if you 

552
00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:16,450
are, so is God going to bless 
you for acting in obedience to 

553
00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:22,260
God in multiple different ways? 
Yes, we aren't the ones who get 

554
00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:25,230
to define what that blessing is.
And it's probably not going to 

555
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,490
be material blessing. 
And it exactly, it's probably 

556
00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:30,480
not blessing in the way that you
immediately go and think about 

557
00:30:30,490 --> 00:30:31,330
it. 
Yeah. 

558
00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:35,330
So, you know, I think that 
that's just to temper that 

559
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:38,590
that's the way the Pharisees are
living with this transactional 

560
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,790
God. 
And they can enjoy the comfort 

561
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,420
of their own prosperity. 
They can give exactly what they 

562
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,090
want, but here so take us back 
like I. 

563
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:55,030
I quoted Matthew 2323 and I 
think this verse helps push 

564
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,520
against that form of legalism. 
Hmm. 

565
00:30:58,180 --> 00:31:04,290
Because Jesus doesn't so the the
Pharisees are are tithing 1/10 

566
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:07,030
of like spices, right? 
So it says like human. 

567
00:31:07,820 --> 00:31:10,150
I don't remember what else is is
there. 

568
00:31:10,940 --> 00:31:16,210
It's like oh I I love a good 
cumin spice added to. 

569
00:31:16,540 --> 00:31:18,150
Like BBQ. 
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna 

570
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,030
bring bring some spices and put 
them in the offering plate this 

571
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:22,780
week. 
I love it. 

572
00:31:22,790 --> 00:31:24,540
Yeah. 
So he says, well, do you scribes

573
00:31:24,550 --> 00:31:27,710
and Pharisees, hypocrites 
pretend play actors, He says, 

574
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,010
for you tithe mint. 
Oh yeah, mint and dill and cumin

575
00:31:31,220 --> 00:31:34,490
and have neglected the weightier
matters of the law, justice and 

576
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:38,370
mercy and faithfulness. 
And so he says these you ought 

577
00:31:38,420 --> 00:31:41,710
to have done without neglecting 
the others. 

578
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,900
So that's, I think the that is 
one of the safeguards against 

579
00:31:45,950 --> 00:31:50,900
that, like legalism, which is, 
you know, if, if it's a 

580
00:31:50,910 --> 00:31:55,090
transaction, then I think ask 
yourself, OK, where is the 

581
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:56,290
justice? 
Where's the mercy? 

582
00:31:56,300 --> 00:31:57,630
Where's the faithfulness? 
Yeah. 

583
00:31:57,690 --> 00:32:00,470
And how, how am I practicing 
those? 

584
00:32:00,540 --> 00:32:02,330
And I think we need to listen to
Jesus's words. 

585
00:32:02,340 --> 00:32:06,410
Like you should practice the 
former were practiced the latter

586
00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:08,110
rather without neglecting the 
former. 

587
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:09,910
Yeah. 
And we essentially all he's 

588
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,490
saying there is you ought to do 
you ought to tithe is what Jesus

589
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:16,110
is saying. 
And you ought to practice 

590
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,050
justice, mercy and faithfulness.
So it's that justice, mercy and 

591
00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:24,920
faithfulness that safeguards 
against the the legalism. 

592
00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:26,870
Well, I'm doing the thing and 
I'm going to get my reward and 

593
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,490
away we go. 
I think what's what's tricky, 

594
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:32,270
and you talked about how the 
Pharisees were Jesus was 

595
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,530
accusing them of cherry picking 
that they would like go through 

596
00:32:35,540 --> 00:32:39,160
this the Hebrew Bible and they 
would kind of like pick, you 

597
00:32:39,170 --> 00:32:41,660
know, some verses that would 
bolster their, their 

598
00:32:41,670 --> 00:32:45,600
justification for for their the 
way they lived, right. 

599
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:49,580
And and you, you could do that 
right, like you, you know, you 

600
00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:53,260
could, you could go through, you
know, for like Abraham and 

601
00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:57,020
onward and look at like, well, 
look, God bless these folks 

602
00:32:57,030 --> 00:33:01,720
materially in so many ways along
the way that the kings so on and

603
00:33:01,730 --> 00:33:05,120
so forth. 
And, and so you could imagine 

604
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:11,180
that it, it is a genuine 
theological tension that we run 

605
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:16,440
into when you read through, when
you read through the Old 

606
00:33:16,450 --> 00:33:18,500
Testament. 
Yeah. 

607
00:33:18,510 --> 00:33:21,240
So here's here's where I would 
say though, that the tension, 

608
00:33:21,330 --> 00:33:25,420
the tension doesn't need to be 
resolved because God does say 

609
00:33:25,510 --> 00:33:30,470
when you give, I will bless you 
and that's true. 

610
00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:33,960
And that can remain true. 
I do, I go back to what I said 

611
00:33:33,970 --> 00:33:36,800
and I'm I'm repeating myself. 
I think the danger lies in when 

612
00:33:36,810 --> 00:33:39,220
we are the ones defining what 
that blessing is. 

613
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,210
So that's the like, that's the 
piece that we need to check. 

614
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,570
I think in our own hearts and in
our own minds. 

615
00:33:45,580 --> 00:33:48,550
That's where community comes 
into play time overtime. 

616
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,290
And that's where, you know, I 
would say that if you are 

617
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:54,470
listening and, and you're, you 
know, you're, you're kind of 

618
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,450
flying solo right now if you're 
single, if you need to get at 

619
00:33:57,460 --> 00:34:01,180
least one other single person to
talk finances with. 

620
00:34:01,250 --> 00:34:03,580
Yeah, Right. 
And if you're married, then I 

621
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:05,780
think you need to find at least 
one other married couple who you

622
00:34:05,790 --> 00:34:08,980
can talk finances with. 
And better yet, like get a group

623
00:34:08,989 --> 00:34:13,060
of like, like 3, you know, 3 or 
4 couples who are willing to go.

624
00:34:13,330 --> 00:34:18,120
All right, we're in The thing is
John Mark Comer's book where he 

625
00:34:18,130 --> 00:34:22,389
talks about $1000. 
So if the if the threshold, 

626
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,150
yeah, if they as a family are 
gonna spend $1000 or more on a 

627
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:30,449
single item of purchase, then 
they have to check that with 

628
00:34:30,460 --> 00:34:33,300
another family. 
They go that like how practical.

629
00:34:33,310 --> 00:34:35,850
That's so good. 
Now it might not be $1000 for 

630
00:34:35,860 --> 00:34:37,790
you. 
It might be $500. 

631
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,199
It might be $100. 
But I think if you're like, if 

632
00:34:40,210 --> 00:34:42,389
you're single, you gotta find 
another at least one other 

633
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,150
single person, you can go, OK, 
my threshold is $500 right now. 

634
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:47,260
And if I'm going to, if I'm 
thinking about spending 500 

635
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:50,210
bucks on something, I'm like, 
can I text you and just run it 

636
00:34:50,219 --> 00:34:54,480
past you and you have free reign
to challenge me on it? 

637
00:34:54,540 --> 00:34:56,449
See, that's dumb. 
Yeah, exactly. 

638
00:34:56,460 --> 00:34:58,210
Like no, you don't need to do 
the thing. 

639
00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:02,600
And hopefully someone that would
feel the freedom to challenge 

640
00:35:02,610 --> 00:35:05,980
and not just sort of like give 
permission for everything like 

641
00:35:06,050 --> 00:35:07,480
that. 
That might be my tendency 

642
00:35:07,490 --> 00:35:10,500
sometimes where I just be like, 
oh, that I want that for you. 

643
00:35:10,510 --> 00:35:12,420
That's great. 
Yeah, like, Christians do this 

644
00:35:12,430 --> 00:35:13,470
all the time. 
We're like, sure. 

645
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,520
Like, I'm not gonna check it 
because, like, I also want to go

646
00:35:15,530 --> 00:35:18,690
buy a $500 thing. 
So if you buy the $500 thing, 

647
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:21,830
I'll also buy the $500 thing. 
And then it's like, no money was

648
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,880
spent, right? 
Like it's just bad math. 

649
00:35:23,890 --> 00:35:27,230
But. 
The you know, I so I would say 

650
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,670
like one, if you're, if you're a
single, go find somebody else 

651
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,030
who you can talk finances. 
If you're a married couple, go 

652
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,840
find somebody you can talk 
finances with your married 

653
00:35:33,850 --> 00:35:35,550
couple with kids. 
Then go find another married 

654
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:36,800
couple with kids. 
Because I think there's 

655
00:35:36,810 --> 00:35:39,710
something good about having 
somebody at the same stage of 

656
00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:43,090
life as you going, Hey, I know 
your priorities right now. 

657
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,370
I know what they need to be 
because we have them as well, 

658
00:35:45,580 --> 00:35:46,850
right? 
Like I know how much diapers 

659
00:35:46,860 --> 00:35:49,130
cost. 
I know how much wipes cost and 

660
00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:53,230
hopefully my 2 year old is going
to soon be completely out of 

661
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:55,190
them and then I won't know 
right. 

662
00:35:55,300 --> 00:35:58,410
So, you know, like there's just 
there's stages of, of, of life 

663
00:35:58,420 --> 00:36:03,600
that we go through for somebody 
who is like empty nesters still 

664
00:36:03,610 --> 00:36:06,440
both working. 
Like, I probably am not the best

665
00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:08,880
person to speak into your 
economic reality. 

666
00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:12,640
Yeah, go find somebody else who 
is also empty nesters. 

667
00:36:12,730 --> 00:36:15,480
And you know, like, I don't 
know, maybe your mortgage is 

668
00:36:15,490 --> 00:36:16,920
paid off. 
Maybe it's not paid off. 

669
00:36:16,930 --> 00:36:19,110
Like maybe you're both working. 
Maybe when you've seen these 

670
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,340
thinking about retiring, what's 
that all window like go find 

671
00:36:21,350 --> 00:36:23,280
somebody who can. 
Hey, I'm in it. 

672
00:36:23,350 --> 00:36:25,870
We're having the same 
conversations at our house now. 

673
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,610
Let's have those together. 
Yeah, I think that would be the 

674
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,690
best thing that you could do 
after listening to this podcast.

675
00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:37,370
Yeah, Would be find one other 
person to start talking money 

676
00:36:37,380 --> 00:36:38,110
with. 
That's good. 

677
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:41,640
I wanna take us back to Malachi,
OK, because you're mentioning 

678
00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:46,190
you're mentioning so passages 
that that do talk about God's 

679
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,990
blessing. 
And, you know, again, just to 

680
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,030
hammer home this point. 
So in Malachi 3, God accuses the

681
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,670
people of robbing from him. 
And they're like, what are you 

682
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,320
talking about? 
Like we're not stealing from you

683
00:36:59,330 --> 00:37:02,570
get like, that's hard, right? 
It's hard to picture that kind 

684
00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:05,470
of like, I don't know, what does
that even look like? 

685
00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:12,210
And and and God says to them, 
you have failed to tithe. 

686
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:18,500
You have stopped tithing. 
And he says in your yeah, he 

687
00:37:18,510 --> 00:37:21,750
says how? 
He says to them, you say, how 

688
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,470
have we robbed you, question 
mark? 

689
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,220
And he says in your tithes and 
contributions. 

690
00:37:27,020 --> 00:37:29,880
And then he says, bring the full
tithe into the storehouse, that 

691
00:37:29,890 --> 00:37:35,070
there may be food in my house. 
And then he says, and thereby 

692
00:37:35,140 --> 00:37:38,710
put me to the test. 
It's one of the only places, if 

693
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,390
not the only place, where God 
actually asks the people to test

694
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,410
him. 
And then he says, so he says, 

695
00:37:48,420 --> 00:37:53,500
test me if I will not open the 
windows of heaven for you and 

696
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:56,860
pour down for you a blessing 
until there is no more need. 

697
00:37:57,970 --> 00:38:01,020
And so you can walk away from 
that verse and go, Yep, it says 

698
00:38:01,030 --> 00:38:03,500
it, if I tithe, I will be 
blessed. 

699
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:12,920
And I just, I think the the 
heaviest part of this passage is

700
00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:14,400
the rebuke. 
Yes. 

701
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:15,900
Right. 
Yeah, God. 

702
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:18,380
This is not God showing up and 
saying, hey, you've been tithing

703
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:21,960
for your entire life. 
Look at all the blessings that I

704
00:38:22,090 --> 00:38:26,760
am going to give you. 
God is saying, Hey, you've, 

705
00:38:26,770 --> 00:38:30,810
you've failed to do this. 
You need to begin doing this and

706
00:38:30,820 --> 00:38:33,260
test me. 
See if I'm good for my word, 

707
00:38:33,780 --> 00:38:35,840
right. 
If you don't believe me, try it 

708
00:38:36,220 --> 00:38:39,810
and and I will show up. 
I will provide. 

709
00:38:40,060 --> 00:38:43,550
I think Jesus takes these in 
such a good direction in his 

710
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,920
sermon on the mount, right where
he says like, Hey, birds of the 

711
00:38:46,930 --> 00:38:51,280
air, flowers, these things are 
clothed better than Solomon. 

712
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,050
They got more food than they 
could ever want or need. 

713
00:38:54,340 --> 00:38:56,330
How much more will God take care
of you? 

714
00:38:57,050 --> 00:38:59,900
So again, I go from like lesser 
to to greater. 

715
00:38:59,950 --> 00:39:01,320
Yeah. 
So here's the lesser. 

716
00:39:01,610 --> 00:39:04,220
The lesser is God saying those 
people who have failed to to 

717
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:07,710
tithe, hey, test me and I will 
prove I'm good for my word. 

718
00:39:07,930 --> 00:39:11,960
The greater is Jesus saying, 
look at everything that I've 

719
00:39:11,970 --> 00:39:14,960
created. 
Look at everything that is in 

720
00:39:14,970 --> 00:39:17,760
existence and how God provides 
for it. 

721
00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:22,500
How much more valuable are you 
than all of these things God 

722
00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:24,680
will provide for you? 
So don't worry. 

723
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:26,450
Don't worry about tomorrow. 
Don't worry about what you will 

724
00:39:26,460 --> 00:39:27,450
eat. 
Don't worry about what you will 

725
00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:29,070
wear. 
Don't worry about what you will 

726
00:39:29,420 --> 00:39:32,130
what you will drink like God 
will provide these things. 

727
00:39:32,140 --> 00:39:35,370
That's the greater hmm. 
So again, I want us always 

728
00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:37,830
moving from these like from 
lesser to greater. 

729
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,310
What is the greater call that 
Jesus places on, on the 

730
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:45,210
Christian Um, and I think it's 
that this is, this is the 

731
00:39:45,220 --> 00:39:51,100
greater move right from Malachi 
to then like Sermon on the Mount

732
00:39:51,110 --> 00:39:58,460
Matthew. 
So you are the lead pastor of 

733
00:39:58,530 --> 00:40:03,140
Courtwright Church and you give 
a message on money? 

734
00:40:04,540 --> 00:40:08,860
And a part of that, there isn't 
an inherent tension even in that

735
00:40:08,930 --> 00:40:13,240
of like, you know, you want, I 
mean, we, I mean, we as staff 

736
00:40:13,470 --> 00:40:18,160
ultimately do want people to be 
generous toward the church 

737
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:21,720
because we believe in what God 
is doing in this place. 

738
00:40:21,730 --> 00:40:23,820
And we believe in, in the 
mission of vision that God has 

739
00:40:23,830 --> 00:40:28,250
called us toward to do the work.
And and that does require 

740
00:40:28,260 --> 00:40:31,590
resources. 
It, it, it, there is no easier. 

741
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,700
There's, there's not an, there's
not a, you know, less, there's 

742
00:40:35,710 --> 00:40:38,810
not a simple way to say that 
it's just we like, we need 

743
00:40:38,820 --> 00:40:41,360
resources, right? 
And so, but one of the tensions 

744
00:40:41,370 --> 00:40:45,800
I think we run into is that it 
can feel a little self-serving 

745
00:40:46,010 --> 00:40:49,250
for, for the, you know, the lead
pastor to get up there and 

746
00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:50,640
preach message about money. 
Yeah. 

747
00:40:50,650 --> 00:40:53,960
And say, you know, you gotta 
give your, you know, your 10%. 

748
00:40:54,110 --> 00:40:58,320
And I think the implication 
being give that 10% to the 

749
00:40:58,330 --> 00:41:03,170
church and then money beyond 
that that you would be generous 

750
00:41:03,180 --> 00:41:05,190
with. 
Yeah, go to church if you want, 

751
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,700
or to other, you know, 
charitable donations or 

752
00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:09,770
whatever. 
I'm just curious your, your, you

753
00:41:09,780 --> 00:41:13,750
know, your theology, your 
theology on on that and where 

754
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,870
you come at that. 
Yeah, so for starters, I can't 

755
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,390
preach that message if I'm not 
tithing right, right. 

756
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,610
Like that's I think that's just 
a non starter. 

757
00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:25,410
Did did the Levites tithe? 
No, they didn't have anything to

758
00:41:25,420 --> 00:41:27,310
tie, did they? 
No, no, no, no. 

759
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,150
They would completely dependent.
Yeah, right. 

760
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,930
Yeah. 
So, you know, to that point, I 

761
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:35,150
know I don't know, you know, 
personally in really close 

762
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,640
measure, but I know pastors who 
argue well. 

763
00:41:37,650 --> 00:41:39,570
I don't need to tithe. 
Yes. 

764
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:40,890
Yeah. 
And I think that that's bad 

765
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:42,570
theology. 
Yeah, very bad. 

766
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:43,530
Very. 
And I think it's poor 

767
00:41:43,540 --> 00:41:49,060
leadership. 
You can't get up and preach A 

768
00:41:49,070 --> 00:41:55,820
sermon like that, um, from a 
place of not also participating 

769
00:41:55,830 --> 00:41:59,180
in the thing. 
And so I've like very rarely, 

770
00:42:00,490 --> 00:42:02,540
you know, will will I talk 
about. 

771
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:06,110
And I didn't on Sunday say, 
well, we tithe, right? 

772
00:42:06,340 --> 00:42:08,810
That wasn't part of the message 
and you should too, right. 

773
00:42:08,820 --> 00:42:12,810
I think that's a different kind 
of like and almost coercive 

774
00:42:12,820 --> 00:42:14,780
turn. 
Yes, Yeah. 

775
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:19,260
But I'm saying it here in this 
context, you know, I think 

776
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:21,750
because it helps flesh out some 
of the answer. 

777
00:42:21,860 --> 00:42:24,350
So I say it cautiously. 
I am kind of guarded and saying 

778
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,450
it, but I'll say it that way. 
Like I can't get up and preach 

779
00:42:28,460 --> 00:42:31,870
that message unless we're 
tithing. 

780
00:42:31,930 --> 00:42:34,850
Hmm. 
And that's something that I 

781
00:42:34,860 --> 00:42:38,110
felt, you know, in the weeks 
leading up to these two weeks 

782
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:43,490
and in the weeks of the thing 
like, you know, I how grateful I

783
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:49,230
was that God has sorted that out
in my heart and in my mind. 

784
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:52,320
And it's just a non starter. 
So, OK, good, here we go. 

785
00:42:53,230 --> 00:42:59,000
So that's part of it. 
This, the second part is that 

786
00:42:59,010 --> 00:43:06,360
yes, I, I, I do believe that if 
you are fully in on a church, 

787
00:43:06,410 --> 00:43:09,480
like if you're here, if this is 
your church, if you're in on the

788
00:43:09,490 --> 00:43:15,730
life and the ministry of court, 
right, then I think part of that

789
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,990
should be a longing to see it 
flourish and a longing to see 

790
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,900
God do more with it. 
And so the, the theological 

791
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:29,680
move, the easy answer is to say 
you're not actually giving it to

792
00:43:29,690 --> 00:43:32,340
us. 
You're entrusting it to us, but 

793
00:43:32,350 --> 00:43:36,440
you're giving it to God. 
You're not tithing because I've 

794
00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:40,080
told you to, and because you 
need to to be a member of this 

795
00:43:40,090 --> 00:43:42,480
church. 
Also orable theology. 

796
00:43:42,490 --> 00:43:44,310
We don't. 
We don't, we don't want numbers,

797
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,970
you know, we don't want. 
It no, if that's or if you're if

798
00:43:46,980 --> 00:43:49,230
you're giving because you think 
it buys you influence. 

799
00:43:49,370 --> 00:43:53,850
We don't want it right. 
So you know what you are doing 

800
00:43:53,860 --> 00:43:57,660
is giving theologically, giving 
to God what is God's. 

801
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:02,440
You are choosing to entrust it 
to us as a church. 

802
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:06,630
You're choosing to say God is 
entrusting this to you as a 

803
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,950
church. 
And so I'm in, I'm in. 

804
00:44:09,010 --> 00:44:11,510
So if you are all in like if 
this is your church, if this is 

805
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,390
a church that you, you know, 
talk to your friends about and 

806
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,640
invite people to and you know, 
if this is your place, then I 

807
00:44:17,650 --> 00:44:23,540
think that that that ought to, I
think weigh heavy on you because

808
00:44:23,550 --> 00:44:28,340
it should, you should want for 
this community to flourish to 

809
00:44:28,350 --> 00:44:30,780
greater degree and measure 
because you see what God is 

810
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:34,320
doing in us through this place 
in all of us. 

811
00:44:35,220 --> 00:44:38,730
Um, am I gonna be the one who 
stands up there militantly and 

812
00:44:38,740 --> 00:44:44,030
say, you know, you, you have to 
give that full 10% to us? 

813
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,290
No, I'm also not gonna take that
posture right. 

814
00:44:47,340 --> 00:44:50,810
Do I think that that again, when
when I look at when I look at 

815
00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:53,950
the zero to 10, I think it's 
better for you to be at 10 than 

816
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,430
at eight or seven or six or 
five. 

817
00:44:56,500 --> 00:45:00,460
But everybody needs to grow. 
And do I think that it is better

818
00:45:00,470 --> 00:45:02,700
that that 10% go to your local 
church? 

819
00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:06,880
Yes, I do, but everybody needs 
to grow. 

820
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:11,790
And if you are convinced and 
convicted, like, you know, one 

821
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,670
of the one of the common things 
in Christian circles and and 

822
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,930
Connie and I do this, but you 
know, many families will sponsor

823
00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:20,810
kids, whether that's through 
World Vision or through 

824
00:45:20,820 --> 00:45:23,110
compassion. 
We personally love compassion 

825
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,730
because of how transparent they 
are. 

826
00:45:25,530 --> 00:45:29,350
And, you know, we have had 
conversations at times. 

827
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,350
OK, where does that fall? 
Yeah. 

828
00:45:31,420 --> 00:45:34,590
What is that? 
Is that generosity or is that 

829
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:38,300
part of the 10%? 
And I, I think, you know, 

830
00:45:38,310 --> 00:45:44,570
there's a probably a pretty good
argument that what, where Jesus 

831
00:45:44,580 --> 00:45:51,960
takes the tithe kind of away 
from the strictly legal to the 

832
00:45:51,970 --> 00:45:55,910
Levites thing. 
Like, I think you could probably

833
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,410
push an argument to say, well, 
if you believe wholeheartedly 

834
00:45:59,420 --> 00:46:04,580
that you're giving this back to 
God, then OK, do I think that it

835
00:46:04,590 --> 00:46:08,160
is an ideal world where that 10%
goes to your local church, 

836
00:46:08,170 --> 00:46:09,570
wherever that local church is? 
Then yes. 

837
00:46:09,580 --> 00:46:12,050
Also yes. 
Now I'll push people in this 

838
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:15,070
direction as well, just to kind 
of temper my own response, OK? 

839
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,430
If somebody only ever watches 
online and considers this to be 

840
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,120
their church home, I would 
probably challenge that person 

841
00:46:24,130 --> 00:46:27,740
and have in my years of ministry
that this shouldn't be the place

842
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:32,140
where you're tithing 10% right. 
And that's, listen, that's up. 

843
00:46:32,150 --> 00:46:34,770
That's between you and God. 
Yeah, you gotta sort that out 

844
00:46:35,020 --> 00:46:36,470
and. 
It's not like wrong or right, 

845
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:37,770
it's more about like what's 
wise? 

846
00:46:37,780 --> 00:46:38,710
What's? 
Right. 

847
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:41,270
I think you should be 
contributing to the community 

848
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,830
where you are living, just like 
I actually think that nobody 

849
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,090
should be. 
I know that there are mobility 

850
00:46:48,100 --> 00:46:50,720
issues and health issues that 
require this, right. 

851
00:46:51,450 --> 00:46:53,980
I think it is better for 
somebody to be invested in a 

852
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:58,260
local church where they are, 
yeah, then a church by distance.

853
00:46:59,210 --> 00:47:01,820
And I think that part of the 
reason why I believe that is 

854
00:47:01,830 --> 00:47:05,560
because you should know that 
that the like the the 

855
00:47:05,570 --> 00:47:09,420
organization, the church that's 
leveraging your givings are 

856
00:47:09,430 --> 00:47:11,600
putting it into your local 
community. 

857
00:47:11,610 --> 00:47:14,300
Yeah, right. 
And so people hear that, you 

858
00:47:14,310 --> 00:47:16,390
know, that it's going to the 
garden and you know that it's 

859
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,500
going to food security in our 
neighborhood. 

860
00:47:18,570 --> 00:47:20,950
And you know that some of your 
neighbors might even be 

861
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,940
benefiting from it. 
Like we are contributing to our 

862
00:47:24,010 --> 00:47:26,050
immediate community. 
We are also contributing 

863
00:47:26,060 --> 00:47:30,510
globally for sure, but you know 
that a lot of your resources are

864
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,060
going to resource saying our 
immediate community. 

865
00:47:34,070 --> 00:47:35,900
And I think that there's 
something beautiful about that, 

866
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:37,800
right? 
We can get so caught up in what 

867
00:47:37,810 --> 00:47:40,280
am I going to do for the world? 
What am I gonna, how do you 

868
00:47:40,290 --> 00:47:43,880
begin to push against all that's
happening and like the horrible 

869
00:47:43,890 --> 00:47:47,240
things that are going on across 
the entire globe? 

870
00:47:47,310 --> 00:47:49,160
How do you begin to do it? 
Well, you begin to do it by 

871
00:47:49,170 --> 00:47:54,690
leveraging your resources in 
your immediate neighborhood to 

872
00:47:54,700 --> 00:47:58,930
serve the least and last and 
lost in your neighborhood. 

873
00:47:59,650 --> 00:48:01,270
And so we've got people who are 
houseless. 

874
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,010
We've got people who are food 
insecure. 

875
00:48:03,020 --> 00:48:04,890
We have people who don't know 
where another meal is gonna come

876
00:48:04,900 --> 00:48:07,740
from. 
And food security for us has 

877
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:10,740
been like the primary mechanism 
to say, hey, we're going to step

878
00:48:10,750 --> 00:48:13,260
into the gap. 
And as much as we can do to put 

879
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:15,960
food on people's tables and into
their fridges who don't have 

880
00:48:15,970 --> 00:48:17,590
any, that's what we're going to 
do. 

881
00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:20,590
And I think that that should, 
that should be so compelling 

882
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:24,530
that someone says, OK, 
fantastic, yeah, 10% is going to

883
00:48:24,540 --> 00:48:25,820
go there. 
Hmm. 

884
00:48:25,860 --> 00:48:27,660
Because I can see what's 
happening with it. 

885
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:34,300
And beyond that, we're gonna use
that step of obedience to think 

886
00:48:34,310 --> 00:48:36,720
about how we can be generous 
elsewhere. 

887
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:44,680
This is not easy. 
This is these are like in 

888
00:48:44,690 --> 00:48:48,880
somebody's heavy, like there's a
heaviness to these conversations

889
00:48:49,330 --> 00:48:53,030
as we as we think about the 
things that we want to cling on 

890
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,140
to. 
And so I think just to, just to 

891
00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:58,490
close this out, you know, like I
think there's something to be 

892
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:01,680
said about, you know, working 
toward it. 

893
00:49:01,690 --> 00:49:05,510
Like God, would you, you know, 
my heart, God, would you help me

894
00:49:06,510 --> 00:49:10,840
to open up my hands? 
You know, and maybe it starts if

895
00:49:10,850 --> 00:49:13,500
I, if you're listening just on 
the podcast, I'm like opening 

896
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:15,570
finger by finger. 
Maybe maybe it's just like 

897
00:49:15,610 --> 00:49:18,740
starting to open each finger 
pry, you know, like, like, and 

898
00:49:18,750 --> 00:49:22,200
it's just like this is a process
that that God is bringing us 

899
00:49:22,210 --> 00:49:25,200
through. 
And it's also something that's 

900
00:49:25,210 --> 00:49:29,520
good to say is like, is like 
there is something good for us 

901
00:49:29,590 --> 00:49:32,480
in that. 
Like there is something healthy 

902
00:49:32,490 --> 00:49:37,030
and helpful about not 
accumulating. 

903
00:49:37,100 --> 00:49:40,100
They're hoarding more wealth and
more stuff. 

904
00:49:40,490 --> 00:49:43,120
You know, you talk about like, 
you know what wealth and you 

905
00:49:43,130 --> 00:49:45,380
know what? 
So someone who wins the lottery,

906
00:49:45,390 --> 00:49:47,520
what that does to someone's 
brain, right? 

907
00:49:47,710 --> 00:49:50,600
And and what it, the way that it
shifts, like the way that a 

908
00:49:50,610 --> 00:49:56,360
billionaire thinks about money, 
it's there is something like, 

909
00:49:56,590 --> 00:50:01,780
there is something otherworldly 
about it for regular Joes like 

910
00:50:01,790 --> 00:50:06,560
you and I, but like there is 
something good for us in 

911
00:50:06,570 --> 00:50:11,790
generosity that God has for us. 
And so I don't know, maybe 

912
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,350
that's a good place to end. 
I think so, yeah, I think so 

913
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:18,060
we're going to get to revisit 
this because in in Luke 21, we 

914
00:50:18,070 --> 00:50:20,290
come back to the widows 
offering, right. 

915
00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:23,440
So you have Rich putting in what
they what they are putting in. 

916
00:50:23,450 --> 00:50:26,840
And then you've got this little 
widow coming in and putting in 

917
00:50:26,910 --> 00:50:28,340
everything that she has. 
Yeah. 

918
00:50:28,420 --> 00:50:32,360
And Jesus, wrestling out the 
tension there and, and, and what

919
00:50:32,370 --> 00:50:35,240
is greater and what is lesser. 
So I, I would challenge people, 

920
00:50:35,250 --> 00:50:39,320
I think with this one last 
thing, if you're looking for one

921
00:50:39,330 --> 00:50:43,790
practical thing to do, go 
through your stuff and give away

922
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,440
one thing. 
Hmm, like just take, take some 

923
00:50:46,450 --> 00:50:48,320
time to think about one thing 
that you can give away to 

924
00:50:48,330 --> 00:50:52,070
someone else this week. 
And that could be that could be 

925
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,950
a little bit of money, but it 
could, I literally mean, do you 

926
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,020
have something that you could 
give away to bless someone else 

927
00:51:01,030 --> 00:51:04,580
with in this season? 
I think the more we practice 

928
00:51:04,590 --> 00:51:07,710
that releasing, like you've 
said, like open hand, it's 

929
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:09,590
harder to do that maybe with 
money. 

930
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,690
So a practical step could be do 
it with some of your stuff, 

931
00:51:14,030 --> 00:51:18,000
start to give it away and and 
watch to see what God will do in

932
00:51:18,010 --> 00:51:20,980
your own heart and in your own 
mind and in the lives of the 

933
00:51:20,990 --> 00:51:24,360
people that are around you. 
Great. 

934
00:51:24,830 --> 00:51:27,500
We hope that this conversation 
has encouraged you in some way 

935
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:31,010
and maybe challenged you more 
today, but we would love to hear

936
00:51:31,020 --> 00:51:33,030
from you. 
So if you have questions for us,

937
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,280
questions at 
courtrightchurch.org, right? 

938
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:40,040
And we would love to wrestle out
some of those questions in 

939
00:51:40,050 --> 00:51:43,120
future podcasts. 
So until then, enjoy your week 

940
00:51:43,170 --> 00:51:45,180
and we'll see you in the next 
episode.