Hey, welcome to today's episode of the podcast.
I've completely lost track of the number at this point, so
welcome. We're glad that you're here
today. We're jumping into a really
difficult conversation. Name it off the top, we're going
to be dealing with forgiveness and.
Really sparked something for people just in terms of the in
my inbox this morning and also your conversations after the
sermon after the Sunday. It's, it's a hard one, but it's
an important one and it's a good one and it leads to life, but
it's hard. And so I think I started off by
saying that like the number one thing I said right at the very
beginning is like forgiveness is difficult and that's OK.
It's OK that it is hard. You know, if you feel like it is
difficult, you're not in any way, shape or form like behind.
Yeah, right. Like it's hard for everybody.
No matter how, you know, far along you think somebody else
is, it's still hard. And it's hard because it's
personal. We talked about how it means
voluntarily suffering and like those are just things that we
don't in our, you know, day and age enjoy like culture doesn't
really kind of, you know, push the whole the voluntary
suffering yeah conversation very, very, you know, far.
It's it's all about limiting your suffering.
So yeah, forgiveness, um, Luke 17, if you haven't read it,
worth a read. And I also played a little bit
in Matthew. So I did, you know, for this one
pull in some of some of the other stuff going on in the New
Testament. So we've got a bunch of
questions though today, which is great.
So I'm going to start with my question, OK?
You know that that if, if everybody thinks it's a bad
question, though, now they know that it's your question.
That's right. There's no, there's no bad.
Question so that that's her and then we do have we got we had an
e-mail this morning that I was in my inbox that was I think
great fodder for for some good discussion.
So so my wife and I this past weekend we we binge watched the
there's a miniseries of the count of Monte Cristo that came
out a couple years ago. So famous story couple 100 years
ago by Alexandre Dumas. That was my best French accent.
I messed her up perfect. And you know, so obviously not a
new story. So like I'm not going to go too
heavy spoiler here, but like there is some interesting
Lindsey and I kept looking at each other during your sermon.
You're like, Oh my gosh. And then we actually spent, so
we went for a walk last night and we spent about half of the
45 minute walk talking about like the the complexities and
nuance of some of the parts of the story.
So it was like it really reverberated in a way.
But one of the parts of this story is that the main
character, the counts, he has this concept, concept of justice
and and divine Providence. And in his mind, he was wronged
deeply, he was hurt deeply, and it affected the trajectory of
his life. And he, in his estimation, God
didn't turn up for him. God, God, God was not going to
enact justice. And so in his mind, he's like,
then I need to do it. That was that was sort of his
approach, right? And there's some ways in which
like he's kind of right. Like these people are thriving
that hurt him. And he's like, this is not just,
this is not right. I need to do something about
this. So he's like ostensibly correct
in his pursuit of justice, but then there are these unintended
consequences. And that's where I won't get
into spoilers, But so the question that arose for me from
that was where is our role? Obviously, our role is to
forgive. That is, that's kind of a
non-negotiable. Like that's just something that
we are called to even when it's hard, even when it's difficult.
But is there a role just to simply move on and and, you
know, forgive and then move on in the face of injustice?
Because that could sweep all sorts of like heinous acts and
injustice under the rug and and forgiveness as a way of
excusing. So to just distill it to its
core is how do we reconcile God as an avenger of justice with
our responsibility to forgive alongside our own pursuit of
what is right and good and just? Yeah, yeah.
So. Happy Monday.
Yeah. Happy, Happy Monday.
So it's a great question. I also love that you're like
intentionally not spoiling what is. 100 year old Exactly.
Yeah. I mean it's 1000 pages though so
I can't be forgiven if you don't want to.
Read that it is so I've I've read it a long time ago.
So I'm not gonna, I'll try to not actually bring a whole lot
into into like how I answer this question, except to say that I
think one of the one of the things about brilliant writing
that makes a book like that stand the test of time over, you
know, yeah. Now many multiple generations is
its ability to identify with the deepest pains of humanity.
So like anything that names the, the, the deep sadness and sorrow
and suffering of the human experience in, in my estimation,
is probably going to, you know, have some longevity to it.
Yeah. And I think that this is one
thing that that the book does well is it does it does
chronicle this, this really difficult and horrible thing
like that changes the trajectory of of someone's life and many
people's lives, which, you know, you and I know and listeners
know that happens still all the time.
There are things that happen in our lives that change and alter
the course of our lives, or at very least feel like they are
changing and altering the course of our entire lives.
Like something happens. And maybe for the perpetrator,
and I'll use that language, like for the the one who inflicted
the pain, who needs to be forgiven, you know, maybe
there's a situation where you're like, hey, that dude's just
living his best life now. Seems like he's completely
forgotten about it over years down the line.
I can't let it go. Yeah, right.
Like that's a conversation that we have all the time with, with,
with people who like, this is, this is part of the difficulty
of like when you've been hurt and wronged and harmed, it lasts
like, and it has an impact on your life and can change a
trajectory of, of your life. And it you can feel like, yeah,
you know, man, this is having a way worse impact on me than it
is on like you, you know, you perpetrator, right?
Hmm. So I think that that is, you
know, it, it's what it's what book does really well, which is
name it names this this pain and sadness.
And I haven't seen the miniseries.
And it's like I said, it's been quite a while since I read that
book. And when I say read, I mean, I
listened to it. So like, you know, it's a lot.
Yeah. Anyways, there's nothing wrong
with listening to audio. Like I listen most of the books
I quote read air quotes here. I listen to now because I just
try to get through so much umm, week over week that like I I
need to listen to it. I.
Can you find that's good for fiction as well?
Yeah, So yeah, it is. Yeah.
Cool. Yeah.
I quite enjoy fiction by
audiobook and. I guess if the if the reader is
animated. Well, so.
That can make or break it, I can imagine.
That's the that's the difference.
Like nonfiction is just, I like when a author reads their own
book when it's nonfiction, yeah. But when it's fiction, you want
someone who's, like, performing the thing.
So there are some really good readers out there at any rate.
So that's that's just a name to name that piece.
But what do you do? So in that situation, you know,
when, when you are thinking along the same lines where OK,
maybe with my head I can say and I can know that justice belongs
to God, but it doesn't look like justice, like it doesn't look
like anything's happening. God's not doing.
Any that's not doing anything about it.
And I think that just to kind of go back to something that I
talked around yesterday, which for us this Sunday is like the
idea that that justice is not ours to define.
Like I think that's that's where we struggle is, you know, when
we've been wrong, it's really easy to start thinking, well,
this is what I would like to happen to this person, right?
And we start, like, building a picture of what justice ought to
look like in our own minds. And I think that part of the
commitment of the follower of Jesus is to say that justice
belongs to God. What you're saying there is not
only does the enacting of justice belong to God, but the
definition of justice also belongs to God, like, right,
what justice looks like, what it constitutes.
So here we get like one of the most violent images Jesus uses
in, in his teachings, right? So um, better for this guy who
is wronged a bunch of people to have a millstone thrown around
his neck. This like big donkey stone
necklace. I I googled image, searched that
and I was like Oh my God. They're huge.
Like, they're like, like like a
van, like a minivan size, right, And then chucked into the ocean.
Like chucked into the sea. That is, That is a theological
statement for sure. That is, you know, but also just
that like that is a there will be there will be punishment like
there will be justice. There will be some level, some
measure of accountability that God will hold you know, so
Revelation and all throughout really the the scriptures we
talk about Jesus's second coming and new heaven, new earth don't
want to go down that whole rabbit trail necessarily today,
but as as Jesus returning to what to judge and they're in
Jesus language. They're sorting right of some
going One Direction and others going in a different direction
like some lives lived. So one of the most haunting
verses, you know, we'll come to you like Jesus.
He's he says some will come to me and say, hey, Lord, Lord,
Lord, look what we do look, look, look at when we did AB and
C like look at how we live for you and and Jesus, you know, he
says, I'll, I'll turn around and says I never knew you away from
me. I never knew you.
So the language that Jesus uses is that there will be a final
accounting for life. Now, that's not to say you gotta
earn it. So I'm also not saying like,
well, keep a Ledger in your back pocket.
Yeah, because you gotta make sure you got more good deeds
than bad deeds so that when the judge comes back, you can
present your evidence. That's also not what's
happening, right? Ultimately, God is the judge who
judges all of sin and death in the person of Jesus.
And so Jesus is when, you know, when Jesus dies on the cross,
God is the judge who judges himself, hmm, and bears the
judgment on his own person on humanity's behalf.
So, you know, you also have to talk about that kind of
understanding of grace and salvation.
But I think just to go circle back my my concern with the
justice piece is that I see far too often and I know it and I
feel it, that we would like to define what justice.
And then when justice isn't enacted, air quotes here in that
specific way, we think that it's not been enacted at all.
And that's when we're more likely to take into our own
hands something that more looks less like justice and more like
retribution. And I think that that's often
our like, we think that justice must include some measure of
retribution, right, Right. Like I think our cult, like we
want to get even. We want to even the score we
want, you know, you, you did X wrong and I'm gonna do Y wrong
back. Like there's that level of,
well, you've pushed and I'm gonna push.
Back I for I. Yeah, absolutely.
Jesus speaks to that as well, that that is not true justice.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, So what? So what does it look like?
And, and so I and and you, you know, as we before we hit play
like you, you mentioned that there's a specific word Jesus
uses. Yeah.
That is worth going down. Yeah, so, so OK, Just wanna back
up for a minute too, because I think there's some work to do to
get there. So justice belongs to God.
The definition of justice belongs to God.
That doesn't mean that you need to constantly suffer harm while
waiting for a future justice to happen, right?
So I think the worst possible take away from the sermon would
be, well, I just need to forgive this person who's harming me and
stay in this situation where I'm perpetually being harmed and
continue to forgive because Jesus says I have to forgive 7
times and that actually means as many times as necessary.
So I'm just going to continue to forgive.
So it would be an error to think that we are saying stay in a
situation where you continue to be harmed and hurt.
Now, the reason I get there theologically is because of this
word rebuke. So, you know, I think that the
passage itself gives the answer for that error, which is often
helpful. Yeah, but Jesus says, you know,
things are gonna come. They're gonna cause you to
stumble. Woe to anyone through whom they
come, like these things that cause other people to stumble.
Then you talks about the donkey stone chucked into the seat.
And then he says, if your brother or sister sins against
you, rebuke them. And that that word, that's a
very strong word. So it involves a measure of
telling the truth, right? It involves saying to the
person, this is what you've done and it actually means, and I
wrote this down, so I think it's really important.
It means to like assign proper value to the event.
So to rebuke someone includes a measure of assigning proper
value. So the the real full definition
is to assign value as is fitting the circumstance.
So in some sense, just because I think it's worth naming that we
as the perpetrated against get to make a a judgment call of
some kind on what they've done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And hopefully that's, you know, that's being done with
counselors and pastors and friends and, you know, a whole
lot of outside help. Yeah, to to encourage you and
get you to that place where you can accurately and truthfully
name the wrong. But like in in Matthew just says
if, if somebody's wrong, do you like go straight to them and try
to work it out between the two of you?
Like a measure of that is this, this language of rebuke, which
means to assign the thing proper value.
So if somebody has harmed you, what Jesus is not saying is
don't blow it out of proportion, right?
But he's also saying don't don't and I'm struggling to find the
exact words here. But like, don't make it too
small of a thing either, like. Don't make it.
You can underplay it. Yeah, yeah.
And the case. So that's my admittedly that's
my tendency. And you kind of touched on it a
little bit where you talked about, you know, like that, that
it's OK, you know, right. You mentioned that, you
mentioned that. And I think that's like, that's
my bent is, is when I have been, when I have been hurt, I, my
tendency is to say it's fine, you know, like I, you know, even
if I can say honestly that I've forgiven them, I will underplay
and undermine the impact and the harm that it, it caused to me,
you know, and, and that's my tendency.
For sure. Right.
So I think that sounds like it's OK, but I forgive you.
Yeah. Or it's OK and I forgive you.
Well, the those two sentences, those two clauses can't actually
go together because if it is OK, there's nothing to forgive.
And so I've actually started this.
But I, I would say this, it says it's OK and I forgive you.
Like, well, I'm speaking to myself now.
Like, dummy, you can't like those two things.
Yeah, be true. Yeah, they can't both be.
True. I remember one time you and I
were talking and and I and I was asking, you know, I was, I was
apologizing for something that I had done and.
And you said and you said it's OK.
I came up with that came out. I came right?
Yeah, but yeah, you said it's OK.
And then you then you clawed that back.
And he said, no, it's not OK, but I forgive you.
Yeah. I have no idea what that was.
Either it was not a it was not a big thing, certainly not a big
thing, but it was enough that I felt I needed to do apologize,
OK. And and I remember you.
I remember you distinctly saying no, I'm gonna, yeah, gonna take
that back. So that's what I've been trying
to do. And I think I've seen it through
the lens of my kids, which is like the best and worst mirror
to be looking into, right? Like when you raise a kid,
you're like, oh, my goodness, this is.
Yeah, yeah. So what I started hearing, and I
think I mentioned this a little bit on Sunday, but what I
started hearing was, you know, in my kids play also their
language mimicked that same thing.
So someone would apologize and then another one would say, it's
OK. And I say, no, no, guys stop.
Like, hmm, like it's not. And so I've tried really hard to
change my language around it to say, no, it's not OK, but I
forgive you or it's not OK and I forgive you.
I think the forgiveness carries much more weight if you
recognize that the thing was wrong.
And so I think that what Jesus is giving us here is a paradigm
for saying it's not OK, I'm going to choose to forgive you,
but this thing is not OK. And so we need to separate this
misunderstanding of forgiveness as simply excusing the wrong,
because it is in fact, so adamantly the opposite.
Forgiveness only is forgiveness if the wrong was wrong.
Like otherwise forgiveness has no point and there's no merit to
it, and there's no weight to it and there's no significance to
it. And it's not costly and it's not
significant at all if the wrong wasn't wrong.
So just to fill out that whole point for people in really
practical ways, if the wrong that was committed to you was
illegal, then part of the rebuke would be to seek proper recourse
because the, the, the break there, the, the rebuke actually
needs in some way to be, um, comparable or adequate for like
the wrong. So the, the wrong that has been
done needs to be named as the wrong that was done.
Yeah. And so part of that exactly.
So, you know, I think of situations of like abusive
marriages and where the church has been so improperly involved
over, you know, the the centuries of saying to an abused
spouse, you need to forgive your abuser spouse.
And also. Stand also stay in this
relationship right and like that is something that that.
Is started man, that's. Something that's still, well,
I'm like, it's something that is still said, right?
Like you need to forgive, you need to forgive, you need to
forgive. Yeah.
And I think that what Jesus is saying here, you know, if a
brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them.
So for starters, like he, he's actually talking about Christian
community. He's not he's yeah.
Like we could go down that rabbit trail.
Like he's not giving specific marriage advice.
No. But even without that, he gives
in that rebuke them a path forward for someone to seek a
proper measure of accountability.
And so in that way I do think that like.
Justice belongs to God. And ultimately the whole, the
whole situation, Justice in the course of human history and
salvation history, life and death, this life, the life to
come, justice all belongs to God.
And we have been given proper legal mechanisms for when in a
community laws are broken. Yeah.
So I just want to be so crystal clear about that.
And I, I, I was on the fence about whether to include this
part in the sermon or not, and it just did not work.
It felt like too abrupt of a stop at any point to include it.
That's why we're here, exactly. But I just think it's so
important to say, like if if the wrong that is being committed
against you is abusive, is unrepentant, is illegal, like
the rebuke needs to match that level of wrong.
Yes. That's not retribution, right?
You're not trying to just harm the person back to the same
degree that you've been harmed. But there is a certain level of
accountability that happens in naming the wrong.
Yeah. So like, if I'm wrong, you you
need to name that to me. It's not comfortable to me,
like, but that's what rebuking is like.
It's not comfortable if somebody wrongs you in a way that is
illegal. The rebuke needs to actually
have legal recourse, and that would not be a, um, that would
not be acting out of line with what Jesus is saying here.
Yeah, they're still gonna be hard work of forgiveness that
you need to do. And there's still gonna be hard
work of like, well, what does reconciliation look like in that
situation? Right.
And is reconciliation always possible?
Yeah. Yeah.
But I think that just to name that as bluntly as I can, in a
similar way, Jesus is so crystal clear here.
He says if someone wrongs you and comes back and apologizes
for it, their owning their wrong right then he says forgive them
if they repent. If they repent, forgive them.
He's not saying if somebody is harming you perpetually and is,
you know, unrepentant to the thing.
And if you've rebuked them, like if you've actually gone and
confronted them and challenged them on it.
And if it's not worked and you've gone and gathered other
people and together you've gone like maybe with another person
or with a therapist or like a pastor, somebody you've gone
buddy is still not repentant. That's not the situation that
Jesus is talking about here either.
No. So just to be crystal clear on
on those kinds of outside scenarios that can happen.
So just because I think it the way that that it's phrase here,
it's worth just asking the question.
So when Jesus says if your brother or sister sins against
you, rebuke them and if they repent, forgive them.
So is forgiveness contingent? Does it hinge on their
repentance? I think a, I think, yes, like
the fullest, most ideal, proper definition of forgiveness does
include repentance and reconciliation.
Yeah. So both of those things, right.
Like the goal of Christian forgiveness is reconciliation.
The goal is correction in a way that leads to a better, more
flourishing relationship. Again, that's not always
possible. So Miroslav Volf, he wrote a
number of books on forgiveness and reconciliation.
And I can't remember if it's in his book Exclusion and Embrace,
which is kind of one of the most famous ones where he he plays
with the idea of like, well, what about forgiveness where
reconciliation is not possible, right.
But even just to say, what about forgiveness when the perpetrator
has died? So let's say you grew up in a
really abusive household and you got out early and, you know,
then there's a traumatic or sudden sort of early death for
like a parent, and that person is no longer available.
And you're just left with all of this stuff like that, you
haven't been able to work out or process with them.
And, and sometimes what they get you to do that I, I've, you
know, been in situations like in therapy, they're talking about
like you, you can still, you can still work toward forgiveness.
You can still they do the inner work and the hard work and
sometimes it's writing a letter, sometimes it's even then
writing, reading it and they sometimes I say like burn it
afterwards, You know, things like that, right.
You know, because there are there.
Being gone doesn't change the the hurt that was caused to you.
Yeah, yeah. So I think that there are still,
you can still walk through these steps even if that person is not
available to you. It's going to be harder.
And I would almost say like categorically, and I almost
never say this like just absolutely true 100% of the
time. If that's a situation that you
find yourself in where you have this like resentment and
bitterness and hurt and harm that's been done and inflicted
and you need to forgive somebody.
And that person is like has died or is in prison.
Like if, if you cannot, if you cannot have a conversation with
that person, that in my mind is like, hey, you need to also be
seeing a therapist like all the time, 100% of the time.
That's the. That's the the.
Level you find a good one, we know.
Lots. That's the level, yeah.
That's the level of of yeah, of I think just help and
encouragement and challenge that that you would need.
So I very rarely do I say this like category 100% of the time
if this is the situation that you're in.
I just feel so deeply that it is so it is so difficult to walk
out forgiveness when reconciliation is not a
possibility that that in my mind, you need someone walking
with you every step of that way because as soon as you as soon
as you take. So if the Christian ideal,
right, if the if the created ideal is and I think we see this
all throughout Scripture is that there's been wrong committed,
there is rebuke or like some level of confrontation.
They're naming the thing. And then there is repentance,
forgiveness, reconciliation, O if that is the full, you know,
like trajectory of the thing ideally done.
If any one of those steps is not possible, it just becomes so
much more difficult that I think that that that should be queuing
you to go and talk to somebody about it.
So, so there are lots of situations where forgiveness
will need to be an internal act and where reconciliation may not
be possible due to absence or death or just it was a, an
irreconcilable situation. But I think this is worth naming
that there are lots of times where reconciliation is
possible, ought to be possible. Knowing where that line is going
to be a little tricky sometimes. Like where is the line between
this is your irreconcilable or this is, this is salvageable.
That can be a tricky balance to, to know.
But all that is to say is like, I think we can say
categorically, like there reconciliation a lot of the time
is plausible and should be sought.
Yeah, sometimes our lack of forgiveness is what gets in the
way. And sometimes my inability to to
recognize the good of reconciliation and the necessity
of it can, can, can, can cause that rift and keep that rift
indefinitely. Right.
Yeah. And I think it's just worth
naming because there are some situations that we have told
ourselves, we've told a lie to ourselves that this is
irreconcilable, this is not able to to be salvaged.
But actually it probably is if we do the work.
Yeah. And so let me name a couple
other things that that we we talk about often right and that
is a reconciled relationship isn't simply that things go back
to the way they were. Yeah.
And I just wanna like so if we're like looking through the
lens of a camera here, this be like zooming out like if you're
gonna put 3 camera, I know, I know, but we're not going to
zoom any of them. That would be but like you know,
so zoom out, pull back, picture the plane flying over 40,000
foot view of reconciliation for a second.
Because ultimately for the Christian, our reconciliation,
like our forgiveness and reconciliation, this horizon,
these horizontal relationships are all based on the forgiveness
and reconciliation that God offers to us.
And one is not possible without the other.
Like the reconciliation that happens in this horizontal plane
of relationship and experience is not possible fully without
the reconciliation work between you and God.
So if we look at our like the just again, just a very simple
hop, skip and a jump overview of reconciliation between humanity
and God, between the individual and God.
Um, if the so the relationship you even talk about like
Genesis, you look at the first few chapters of Genesis and no
matter how you read it, the truth that it conveys is perfect
relationship between humanity and God.
Brokenness almost immediately comes into play and creates this
broken relationship between humanity and God.
Um, brokenness then begets brokenness, right?
Like harm begets harm. So you go very quickly.
I think it's in like the first four chapters of Genesis.
You go from perfect like create creation.
God says it's good. Hmm.
Macy's. Hey, Adam probably shouldn't be
alone. So I'm gonna create Eve now even
but like this is good. This is good.
They walked with God. Brokenness enters into the
equation. They eat of the fruit and then
very quickly Kane kills Abel but it's like 4 chapters in and you
get great. Awesome.
Like that's a rock solid start for humanity.
So you know, like the early, early scriptures tell this
story. Yes, ultimately of this ideal
created, ordered right relationship between God and
humanity. But what has always been at play
in it is brokenness. And so, you know, you and I, and
this is like, this is theology that people do, you know, debate
over, but, you know, born into the same brokenness as Adam and
Eve. Yeah.
Like, first experience, right. Cain and Abel, born into that
brokenness. They didn't experience anything
other than that brokenness. There's lots of fancy
theological terms we don't need to get into but but it is, I
mean, however you split it, I don't think it's hard to.
I don't think it's a controversial to say like, hey,
whether, whether you are, whether you are born into it or
whether it's something that's very early on you, you learn,
you know, we are all in a broken world and will participate in
said brokenness, yes. Absolutely.
Yeah. So part of the the reconciling
work of Jesus on the cross and redeeming work of Jesus on the
cross is to is to make whole again, make right that broken
relationship between humanity and God.
Now, you know, I think that when you look at the course of
individual human lives, like, you know, that brokenness is
still at play and and salvation is being worked out and none of
us are perfect. And you know, eventually though,
we talk about this full arc of scripture that goes from right
good created, ordered to write good, recreated and ordered.
So there will be a day where brokenness and sin and suffering
and these deep things of the human experience that we all
know are no longer part of it are gone and done away with.
Until then, we kind of live in this, you know, halfway there.
It's already being lived out, but it's not yet lived out in
its completion. Brokenness is still a part of
life. But we have a, we have a picture
and a model of this rightly ordered recreated relationship
that is different. And this is what this is what I
would challenge people with is, is different than the
relationship as it started. So, and, and this is where like
when you look at the full arc of Scripture, you go, yes,
perfection to perfection, good to good creation to recreation,
but we're not there. But none of us, none of us exist
at either of those moments, right?
So, you know, we human beings born into brokenness suffer its
consequences and contribute to other people's brokenness,
broken relationship toward God's will.
God wants to take our relationship from that broken
place to a better place. And it's different after, you
know, the work of Jesus on the cross and our waking up to the
work that Jesus does on the cross and becoming aware of the
Kingdom of God and what God is doing in the world.
It is different on the other side of it.
So if I could just and, and hopefully people have followed
this far and if not, we can cut this part out, but I think it
would be a misunderstanding of forgiveness and reconciliation
to articulate that my relationship with God just went
back to the way it was. Well, no, it hasn't.
Like if I've been forgiven, if I am being reconciled to God, then
my relationship is in a different place now than it was
before that reconciliation. Yeah.
OK. And that's what I want people to
hear. So forgiveness and
reconciliation doesn't mean that your relationship with the
individual just goes back to the way it was before, because
that's a broken place. It has to be different.
It has to be better. It has to be in a a a more
loving and more faithful recreation of relationship that
God has designed us for. Yeah.
If it's not, then I think there are some questions to ask, like
is it really forgiveness and reconciliation?
And are both parties working toward forgiveness and
reconciliation? Yeah.
And what are the boundaries that you need in place in order to
help push that that relationship into the healthiest and most
reconciled place? So it's not simply, and this is
what I want people to hear this whole rant is it's not just
going back to the way that the way things were before, because
we all know that the way things were before wasn't good.
Yeah, because obviously there was a there was wrong and there
was harm and there was hurt and there was brokenness.
So. And so the whole goal of
reconciliation isn't to take the relationship back to the way it
was. The whole goal is to make it
more like God's reconcile the relationship between him and
humanity and ultimately what it will be in the new creation.
So it's we're working in, in that correction.
We're not trying to get back to the way things were.
One, OK, one other wrinkle, because reality is full of that
like agreed that that is the the ideal life is not always ideal.
So I, I'm, I'm going to tease out a situation just in my own
life without, without getting, getting too much detail or you
know this, you're not my therapist.
This is not a therapy session. Yeah, public therapy podcasts
would be a horrible. Idea terrible so bad, but but
just to sort of like wrestle out that kind of that idea of
reconciliation always, you know, yes, it ought to be different.
Sometimes it may not be better and it may just be different.
And so, so I'm thinking of a situation in my life over the
years where where there was harm done, where there where I was
the wounded party. Years later, I set up some
boundaries and, and was not in relationship whatsoever with
that person for a season or that was I made that conscious choice
that I need to this is, this is an unsafe relationship that I
need to separate from. And since then there's been, you
know, lots of communication and, and I would say forms of
reconciliation. But at the end of the day, the
other party has not done their job.
I've done my job. I've done my work.
I've, I've, I've expressed and lived out forgiveness and worked
toward reconciliation. The other party has not done
their job. There's no one that anyone
knows. So it's fine, great, but but it
is like one of those one of those situations where our
relationship exists. It is, it is a it is there, but
it is not fully reconciled. It is, it's different.
It is, it is semi reconciled. And that's sort of that the
tension that I think partly we run into into our in our broken
world where it it takes 2 to make that happen.
And yeah. Yeah, I think that you, you
again without, without going, we don't want to go too far down
the the specifics of this situation.
I think though, even in the way that you've retold the story,
you start, I start to ask questions around, you know, does
does this person understand rightly what repentance is?
Because if we understand repentance as a changing of mind
and a changing of action, like there's literally a changing of
of course, so your mind has to change.
You have to think differently about the thing and you have to
change your direction of lived out life like your, your, your
actions also have to change. So you know, there's, there's
two different words in the New Testament for that kind of
repentance. There's one that is like a a
changing of your mind. And then there is one that is a
turning and walking in the other direction.
And I think that part of repentance actually, and part of
what the New Testament challenges us toward is that
both of those things are true. Your mind has to change and your
actions have to change. And if that's not happening, but
then that's not repentance. It might be partial repentance.
It might be some of the way there because like this is also
the difficult thing about faith is that it's not 100%
immediately. Like you know, it can take a
long time. 20 years from now, this could be very.
Different. It could be a very yeah, but but
I do think that what I encourage people to do is guard their
measure of. So yes, you're you're called to
forgive. What I think is clear is that
the repentance is required. And if that repentance is not
evident over not just like it's this isn't just saying I'm
sorry, right? It's not just yeah, sorry, I did
that. No, this is.
This is. I am deeply sorry.
And we're going to work together to figure out how that doesn't
happen again. Yeah.
And you help me and I will help you Like, again.
We don't wanna put the put. Don't put the burden on the
person who was harmed to, you know, make it better.
But like, I think part of repentance is to say is, is
having the willingness to say, um, I recognize the wrong that
I've done and I recognize my actions need to change in this
situation. O you know, as they don't
change, you have full weight and authority to say, Hey, this is
the thing we've talked about this.
Like that's the level of, of repentance.
It's here's what I'm committing to.
Here's the evidence that you're going to see.
And I hope and pray that you see it over the long run.
But if, if that's not evidenced, then then I, I really wrestle
out the OK, what's the weight of the is it an apology?
Hmm. Because that's also different.
Or is it true repentance? Yeah, where someone is saying,
no, I'm understand that what I've done is harmed you and
you're going to see my actions change because of the death of
my understanding. Yeah, so.
So I think that where where you don't see that, then I think the
conversation rightly should be OK.
Well, what boundaries do you need to have in place with an
individual so that you're not just constantly putting yourself
in harm's way again? Does that start to answer it?
Yeah, yeah, I know. I think so.
It's it's man. It's this is messy.
Life is messy. I think we've actually like in
we, we didn't directly answer the individuals question that
was sent yesterday, but we actually answered all of it in
in the course of our conversation just through the
nature of of this. But anything left on the table
that you want to touch on? Two things really briefly #1 if
you want to read a book on forgiveness, just to help your
head kind of get there, like if that's the part of you that's is
wrestling it out. Timothy Keller's book called
Forgive is a really good resource.
He talks about in that book, and this is what I did want to
mention two two things that are required for forgiveness and he
talks about more, but the one being inner poverty or humility
being required to forgive and the other which we don't talk
about often enough, I think he calls it inner wealth and that
is the the love of God O in. Generosity and.
No, no, like in the internalized love of a God who is more loving
toward you than you are to yourself.
OHP that's beautiful. Like that's the so so
forgiveness has to come from this place of, yes, inner
poverty or humility. It has to come from a place of
like recognizing that you are choosing to suffer.
And I think that's like that's the language, right?
So to forgive somebody is to choose to suffer and instead
say, I will not, I will not work for retribution.
I will not try to get from you. I will not hold it over you.
I will not try to make you feel the same measure of pain you've
made me feel. It is to to to eat it right.
It's to say I will take it. It's not right.
I'm not going to put up with it. But I am willing to bear the
suffering for your sake. So that requires humility.
You can also only do that from a place that is deeply loved and
you like. Forgiveness is possible when you
realize, yes, how much you've been forgiven, but the love that
that carries and it comes from a place, a deep understanding and
experience of God's love over you being vastly more important
than even that individual's love for you, right?
So you can say I am secure in my knowledge of God's love and my
experience of God's love. And from that wealth, inner
wealth, I will choose to forgive you because I don't actually
need the quote love that may or may not come through this act of
forgiveness and reconciliation. What you're saying is the the
storehouse that I have is from. God, there's a groundedness in
that there is a groundedness in your and security in your
relationship with God and and the knowledge of who you are
that that will say like, I don't, I don't need that.
You know, forgiveness from you would be nice or reconciliation
from you would be nice or apology would be nice.
Restitution would be nice, but I don't need it you.
Know so if you want to read someone who wrestles that out.
So Keller will be good for your head.
Henry Nowen will be good for your heart.
Life of the Beloved, there's so many, so many books of his that
really are helpful. So that's number two.
So, so check out Kelly's book for your head.
Check out Henry now and for your heart.
And then Justin behind you is Henry Cloud's book.
So Cloud and Townsend wrote a book on boundaries that we give
out all the time. And it's on the bookshelf.
And I don't know that you can see it behind Justin on the
bookshelf, but it's here. It's literally right there.
And that is a good book if you need to start to wrestle out
what boundaries look like in your life as you work toward
forgiveness and reconciliation. So boundaries with friends,
boundaries with spouses, boundaries with ex spouses,
boundaries with parents, adult bound like adult children,
boundaries, boundaries with, with, with like it just he
covers a whole lot of it. And it's a good primer for
wrestling at what healthy boundaries can and should look
like. So three resources.
But I think at the end of the day, what I want people to know
is it does, it requires humility and it requires, um, wealth,
this inner wealth, an understanding and experience of
God's love. And so if I could end that way,
I think that's what we're gonna be praying for you this week.
Yeah. Is that you would know an
experience that inner poverty, what it means to be poor in
spirit, what it means to know your need for God and what it
means to be loved vastly beyond you could imagine or quantify by
that same God from that place start to allow it to impact your
relationships. O thanks for listening.
Thanks for watching. We hope that this finds you in a
good place this week and challenges you to have more
conversations like Justin and yeah and family out for a walk.
Love that. And yeah, we will see you in the
next episode.