1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,690 Hey, welcome to today's episode of the podcast. 2 00:00:03,700 --> 00:00:06,490 I've completely lost track of the number at this point, so 3 00:00:06,500 --> 00:00:08,150 welcome. We're glad that you're here 4 00:00:08,220 --> 00:00:09,530 today. We're jumping into a really 5 00:00:09,540 --> 00:00:12,510 difficult conversation. Name it off the top, we're going 6 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,170 to be dealing with forgiveness and. 7 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,550 Really sparked something for people just in terms of the in 8 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,810 my inbox this morning and also your conversations after the 9 00:00:22,820 --> 00:00:25,640 sermon after the Sunday. It's, it's a hard one, but it's 10 00:00:25,650 --> 00:00:28,670 an important one and it's a good one and it leads to life, but 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,170 it's hard. And so I think I started off by 12 00:00:31,180 --> 00:00:34,020 saying that like the number one thing I said right at the very 13 00:00:34,030 --> 00:00:38,800 beginning is like forgiveness is difficult and that's OK. 14 00:00:38,860 --> 00:00:43,310 It's OK that it is hard. You know, if you feel like it is 15 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,650 difficult, you're not in any way, shape or form like behind. 16 00:00:48,660 --> 00:00:51,110 Yeah, right. Like it's hard for everybody. 17 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,650 No matter how, you know, far along you think somebody else 18 00:00:54,660 --> 00:00:58,170 is, it's still hard. And it's hard because it's 19 00:00:58,180 --> 00:00:59,790 personal. We talked about how it means 20 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,860 voluntarily suffering and like those are just things that we 21 00:01:03,870 --> 00:01:08,450 don't in our, you know, day and age enjoy like culture doesn't 22 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:13,480 really kind of, you know, push the whole the voluntary 23 00:01:13,490 --> 00:01:17,660 suffering yeah conversation very, very, you know, far. 24 00:01:17,730 --> 00:01:20,060 It's it's all about limiting your suffering. 25 00:01:20,070 --> 00:01:26,310 So yeah, forgiveness, um, Luke 17, if you haven't read it, 26 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:28,880 worth a read. And I also played a little bit 27 00:01:28,890 --> 00:01:31,590 in Matthew. So I did, you know, for this one 28 00:01:31,660 --> 00:01:35,570 pull in some of some of the other stuff going on in the New 29 00:01:35,580 --> 00:01:37,030 Testament. So we've got a bunch of 30 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:38,490 questions though today, which is great. 31 00:01:38,550 --> 00:01:41,220 So I'm going to start with my question, OK? 32 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,100 You know that that if, if everybody thinks it's a bad 33 00:01:45,110 --> 00:01:46,990 question, though, now they know that it's your question. 34 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,520 That's right. There's no, there's no bad. 35 00:01:48,530 --> 00:01:51,950 Question so that that's her and then we do have we got we had an 36 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,460 e-mail this morning that I was in my inbox that was I think 37 00:01:56,470 --> 00:01:58,300 great fodder for for some good discussion. 38 00:01:58,310 --> 00:02:06,140 So so my wife and I this past weekend we we binge watched the 39 00:02:06,970 --> 00:02:09,539 there's a miniseries of the count of Monte Cristo that came 40 00:02:09,550 --> 00:02:12,640 out a couple years ago. So famous story couple 100 years 41 00:02:12,650 --> 00:02:15,920 ago by Alexandre Dumas. That was my best French accent. 42 00:02:15,930 --> 00:02:19,340 I messed her up perfect. And you know, so obviously not a 43 00:02:19,350 --> 00:02:21,320 new story. So like I'm not going to go too 44 00:02:21,330 --> 00:02:23,860 heavy spoiler here, but like there is some interesting 45 00:02:23,870 --> 00:02:26,320 Lindsey and I kept looking at each other during your sermon. 46 00:02:26,410 --> 00:02:29,560 You're like, Oh my gosh. And then we actually spent, so 47 00:02:29,570 --> 00:02:32,780 we went for a walk last night and we spent about half of the 48 00:02:32,790 --> 00:02:37,080 45 minute walk talking about like the the complexities and 49 00:02:37,090 --> 00:02:38,880 nuance of some of the parts of the story. 50 00:02:38,890 --> 00:02:40,540 So it was like it really reverberated in a way. 51 00:02:40,550 --> 00:02:43,140 But one of the parts of this story is that the main 52 00:02:43,150 --> 00:02:48,040 character, the counts, he has this concept, concept of justice 53 00:02:48,050 --> 00:02:53,210 and and divine Providence. And in his mind, he was wronged 54 00:02:53,220 --> 00:02:57,720 deeply, he was hurt deeply, and it affected the trajectory of 55 00:02:57,730 --> 00:03:01,770 his life. And he, in his estimation, God 56 00:03:01,810 --> 00:03:05,620 didn't turn up for him. God, God, God was not going to 57 00:03:05,630 --> 00:03:09,000 enact justice. And so in his mind, he's like, 58 00:03:09,090 --> 00:03:11,520 then I need to do it. That was that was sort of his 59 00:03:11,530 --> 00:03:14,310 approach, right? And there's some ways in which 60 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,230 like he's kind of right. Like these people are thriving 61 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,870 that hurt him. And he's like, this is not just, 62 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,250 this is not right. I need to do something about 63 00:03:23,260 --> 00:03:25,820 this. So he's like ostensibly correct 64 00:03:25,890 --> 00:03:29,170 in his pursuit of justice, but then there are these unintended 65 00:03:29,180 --> 00:03:30,730 consequences. And that's where I won't get 66 00:03:30,740 --> 00:03:34,000 into spoilers, But so the question that arose for me from 67 00:03:34,010 --> 00:03:40,210 that was where is our role? Obviously, our role is to 68 00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:41,890 forgive. That is, that's kind of a 69 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:43,780 non-negotiable. Like that's just something that 70 00:03:43,790 --> 00:03:47,010 we are called to even when it's hard, even when it's difficult. 71 00:03:47,740 --> 00:03:50,640 But is there a role just to simply move on and and, you 72 00:03:50,650 --> 00:03:53,330 know, forgive and then move on in the face of injustice? 73 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:58,630 Because that could sweep all sorts of like heinous acts and 74 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,730 injustice under the rug and and forgiveness as a way of 75 00:04:02,740 --> 00:04:06,190 excusing. So to just distill it to its 76 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:13,170 core is how do we reconcile God as an avenger of justice with 77 00:04:13,180 --> 00:04:16,980 our responsibility to forgive alongside our own pursuit of 78 00:04:16,990 --> 00:04:20,310 what is right and good and just? Yeah, yeah. 79 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:21,890 So. Happy Monday. 80 00:04:21,940 --> 00:04:23,410 Yeah. Happy, Happy Monday. 81 00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:26,530 So it's a great question. I also love that you're like 82 00:04:26,540 --> 00:04:30,630 intentionally not spoiling what is. 100 year old Exactly. 83 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,730 Yeah. I mean it's 1000 pages though so 84 00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:34,400 I can't be forgiven if you don't want to. 85 00:04:34,410 --> 00:04:38,630 Read that it is so I've I've read it a long time ago. 86 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,910 So I'm not gonna, I'll try to not actually bring a whole lot 87 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,330 into into like how I answer this question, except to say that I 88 00:04:46,340 --> 00:04:50,960 think one of the one of the things about brilliant writing 89 00:04:51,210 --> 00:04:56,190 that makes a book like that stand the test of time over, you 90 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,820 know, yeah. Now many multiple generations is 91 00:05:00,830 --> 00:05:05,480 its ability to identify with the deepest pains of humanity. 92 00:05:05,670 --> 00:05:11,700 So like anything that names the, the, the deep sadness and sorrow 93 00:05:11,710 --> 00:05:15,670 and suffering of the human experience in, in my estimation, 94 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,050 is probably going to, you know, have some longevity to it. 95 00:05:19,060 --> 00:05:20,290 Yeah. And I think that this is one 96 00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:25,410 thing that that the book does well is it does it does 97 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:32,090 chronicle this, this really difficult and horrible thing 98 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,990 like that changes the trajectory of of someone's life and many 99 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,300 people's lives, which, you know, you and I know and listeners 100 00:05:42,310 --> 00:05:44,270 know that happens still all the time. 101 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:49,320 There are things that happen in our lives that change and alter 102 00:05:49,330 --> 00:05:53,520 the course of our lives, or at very least feel like they are 103 00:05:53,530 --> 00:05:55,820 changing and altering the course of our entire lives. 104 00:05:55,830 --> 00:05:59,000 Like something happens. And maybe for the perpetrator, 105 00:05:59,010 --> 00:06:02,700 and I'll use that language, like for the the one who inflicted 106 00:06:02,710 --> 00:06:06,360 the pain, who needs to be forgiven, you know, maybe 107 00:06:06,370 --> 00:06:08,840 there's a situation where you're like, hey, that dude's just 108 00:06:08,850 --> 00:06:11,640 living his best life now. Seems like he's completely 109 00:06:11,650 --> 00:06:13,970 forgotten about it over years down the line. 110 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:16,270 I can't let it go. Yeah, right. 111 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,590 Like that's a conversation that we have all the time with, with, 112 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:22,070 with people who like, this is, this is part of the difficulty 113 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:28,580 of like when you've been hurt and wronged and harmed, it lasts 114 00:06:28,590 --> 00:06:31,780 like, and it has an impact on your life and can change a 115 00:06:31,790 --> 00:06:35,110 trajectory of, of your life. And it you can feel like, yeah, 116 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,760 you know, man, this is having a way worse impact on me than it 117 00:06:38,770 --> 00:06:41,900 is on like you, you know, you perpetrator, right? 118 00:06:41,950 --> 00:06:44,790 Hmm. So I think that that is, you 119 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,380 know, it, it's what it's what book does really well, which is 120 00:06:47,390 --> 00:06:49,840 name it names this this pain and sadness. 121 00:06:49,850 --> 00:06:51,140 And I haven't seen the miniseries. 122 00:06:51,150 --> 00:06:54,010 And it's like I said, it's been quite a while since I read that 123 00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:55,120 book. And when I say read, I mean, I 124 00:06:55,130 --> 00:06:57,650 listened to it. So like, you know, it's a lot. 125 00:06:57,660 --> 00:06:59,560 Yeah. Anyways, there's nothing wrong 126 00:06:59,570 --> 00:07:01,660 with listening to audio. Like I listen most of the books 127 00:07:01,670 --> 00:07:05,500 I quote read air quotes here. I listen to now because I just 128 00:07:05,510 --> 00:07:11,830 try to get through so much umm, week over week that like I I 129 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:12,910 need to listen to it. I. 130 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,230 Can you find that's good for fiction as well? 131 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,950 Yeah, So yeah, it is. Yeah. 132 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:18,400 Cool. Yeah. 133 00:07:18,410 --> 00:07:21,090 Yeah. I quite enjoy fiction by 134 00:07:21,100 --> 00:07:24,650 audiobook and. I guess if the if the reader is 135 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:26,030 animated. Well, so. 136 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,640 That can make or break it, I can imagine. 137 00:07:27,650 --> 00:07:29,020 That's the that's the difference. 138 00:07:29,030 --> 00:07:32,950 Like nonfiction is just, I like when a author reads their own 139 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,350 book when it's nonfiction, yeah. But when it's fiction, you want 140 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:36,890 someone who's, like, performing the thing. 141 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:39,580 So there are some really good readers out there at any rate. 142 00:07:40,030 --> 00:07:42,820 So that's that's just a name to name that piece. 143 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:49,120 But what do you do? So in that situation, you know, 144 00:07:49,130 --> 00:07:54,520 when, when you are thinking along the same lines where OK, 145 00:07:54,530 --> 00:07:58,150 maybe with my head I can say and I can know that justice belongs 146 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,150 to God, but it doesn't look like justice, like it doesn't look 147 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,620 like anything's happening. God's not doing. 148 00:08:03,630 --> 00:08:04,980 Any that's not doing anything about it. 149 00:08:05,270 --> 00:08:08,460 And I think that just to kind of go back to something that I 150 00:08:08,470 --> 00:08:13,740 talked around yesterday, which for us this Sunday is like the 151 00:08:13,750 --> 00:08:16,420 idea that that justice is not ours to define. 152 00:08:17,470 --> 00:08:21,120 Like I think that's that's where we struggle is, you know, when 153 00:08:21,130 --> 00:08:23,220 we've been wrong, it's really easy to start thinking, well, 154 00:08:23,230 --> 00:08:26,850 this is what I would like to happen to this person, right? 155 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:31,670 And we start, like, building a picture of what justice ought to 156 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,610 look like in our own minds. And I think that part of the 157 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:40,919 commitment of the follower of Jesus is to say that justice 158 00:08:40,929 --> 00:08:43,909 belongs to God. What you're saying there is not 159 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:49,630 only does the enacting of justice belong to God, but the 160 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,590 definition of justice also belongs to God, like, right, 161 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,630 what justice looks like, what it constitutes. 162 00:08:56,780 --> 00:08:59,960 So here we get like one of the most violent images Jesus uses 163 00:08:59,970 --> 00:09:04,960 in, in his teachings, right? So um, better for this guy who 164 00:09:04,970 --> 00:09:08,220 is wronged a bunch of people to have a millstone thrown around 165 00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:10,350 his neck. This like big donkey stone 166 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,840 necklace. I I googled image, searched that 167 00:09:12,850 --> 00:09:14,590 and I was like Oh my God. They're huge. 168 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,180 They're huge. Like, they're like, like like a 169 00:09:17,190 --> 00:09:21,360 van, like a minivan size, right, And then chucked into the ocean. 170 00:09:21,420 --> 00:09:24,620 Like chucked into the sea. That is, That is a theological 171 00:09:24,630 --> 00:09:28,210 statement for sure. That is, you know, but also just 172 00:09:28,220 --> 00:09:33,560 that like that is a there will be there will be punishment like 173 00:09:33,570 --> 00:09:36,230 there will be justice. There will be some level, some 174 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:42,550 measure of accountability that God will hold you know, so 175 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,340 Revelation and all throughout really the the scriptures we 176 00:09:46,350 --> 00:09:52,260 talk about Jesus's second coming and new heaven, new earth don't 177 00:09:52,270 --> 00:09:54,890 want to go down that whole rabbit trail necessarily today, 178 00:09:54,900 --> 00:10:02,590 but as as Jesus returning to what to judge and they're in 179 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,710 Jesus language. They're sorting right of some 180 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,490 going One Direction and others going in a different direction 181 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:12,970 like some lives lived. So one of the most haunting 182 00:10:12,980 --> 00:10:16,230 verses, you know, we'll come to you like Jesus. 183 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,670 He's he says some will come to me and say, hey, Lord, Lord, 184 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:23,530 Lord, look what we do look, look, look at when we did AB and 185 00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:27,730 C like look at how we live for you and and Jesus, you know, he 186 00:10:27,740 --> 00:10:30,440 says, I'll, I'll turn around and says I never knew you away from 187 00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:31,140 me. I never knew you. 188 00:10:31,180 --> 00:10:35,150 So the language that Jesus uses is that there will be a final 189 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,610 accounting for life. Now, that's not to say you gotta 190 00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:40,550 earn it. So I'm also not saying like, 191 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:42,650 well, keep a Ledger in your back pocket. 192 00:10:42,660 --> 00:10:44,790 Yeah, because you gotta make sure you got more good deeds 193 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,250 than bad deeds so that when the judge comes back, you can 194 00:10:47,260 --> 00:10:49,170 present your evidence. That's also not what's 195 00:10:49,180 --> 00:10:52,010 happening, right? Ultimately, God is the judge who 196 00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:54,930 judges all of sin and death in the person of Jesus. 197 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,120 And so Jesus is when, you know, when Jesus dies on the cross, 198 00:10:59,990 --> 00:11:07,170 God is the judge who judges himself, hmm, and bears the 199 00:11:07,180 --> 00:11:11,650 judgment on his own person on humanity's behalf. 200 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,460 So, you know, you also have to talk about that kind of 201 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:19,370 understanding of grace and salvation. 202 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,290 But I think just to go circle back my my concern with the 203 00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:29,650 justice piece is that I see far too often and I know it and I 204 00:11:29,660 --> 00:11:32,950 feel it, that we would like to define what justice. 205 00:11:33,510 --> 00:11:37,460 And then when justice isn't enacted, air quotes here in that 206 00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:42,180 specific way, we think that it's not been enacted at all. 207 00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:45,760 And that's when we're more likely to take into our own 208 00:11:45,770 --> 00:11:49,240 hands something that more looks less like justice and more like 209 00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:52,300 retribution. And I think that that's often 210 00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:56,780 our like, we think that justice must include some measure of 211 00:11:56,790 --> 00:12:00,330 retribution, right, Right. Like I think our cult, like we 212 00:12:00,340 --> 00:12:04,080 want to get even. We want to even the score we 213 00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:09,280 want, you know, you, you did X wrong and I'm gonna do Y wrong 214 00:12:09,370 --> 00:12:11,190 back. Like there's that level of, 215 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:12,640 well, you've pushed and I'm gonna push. 216 00:12:12,650 --> 00:12:15,260 Back I for I. Yeah, absolutely. 217 00:12:15,270 --> 00:12:19,600 Jesus speaks to that as well, that that is not true justice. 218 00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:21,400 Yeah. Yeah. 219 00:12:21,410 --> 00:12:23,260 So, So what? So what does it look like? 220 00:12:23,270 --> 00:12:27,500 And, and so I and and you, you know, as we before we hit play 221 00:12:27,510 --> 00:12:29,940 like you, you mentioned that there's a specific word Jesus 222 00:12:29,950 --> 00:12:30,920 uses. Yeah. 223 00:12:30,970 --> 00:12:36,540 That is worth going down. Yeah, so, so OK, Just wanna back 224 00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:38,940 up for a minute too, because I think there's some work to do to 225 00:12:38,950 --> 00:12:42,070 get there. So justice belongs to God. 226 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:45,210 The definition of justice belongs to God. 227 00:12:46,450 --> 00:12:52,310 That doesn't mean that you need to constantly suffer harm while 228 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,230 waiting for a future justice to happen, right? 229 00:12:56,300 --> 00:13:00,830 So I think the worst possible take away from the sermon would 230 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,750 be, well, I just need to forgive this person who's harming me and 231 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,110 stay in this situation where I'm perpetually being harmed and 232 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,220 continue to forgive because Jesus says I have to forgive 7 233 00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:15,710 times and that actually means as many times as necessary. 234 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,750 So I'm just going to continue to forgive. 235 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:23,610 So it would be an error to think that we are saying stay in a 236 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:26,670 situation where you continue to be harmed and hurt. 237 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,150 Now, the reason I get there theologically is because of this 238 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:35,010 word rebuke. So, you know, I think that the 239 00:13:35,020 --> 00:13:39,350 passage itself gives the answer for that error, which is often 240 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,830 helpful. Yeah, but Jesus says, you know, 241 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,770 things are gonna come. They're gonna cause you to 242 00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:46,870 stumble. Woe to anyone through whom they 243 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,430 come, like these things that cause other people to stumble. 244 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,660 Then you talks about the donkey stone chucked into the seat. 245 00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:55,890 And then he says, if your brother or sister sins against 246 00:13:55,900 --> 00:14:01,480 you, rebuke them. And that that word, that's a 247 00:14:01,490 --> 00:14:05,410 very strong word. So it involves a measure of 248 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:10,790 telling the truth, right? It involves saying to the 249 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:16,630 person, this is what you've done and it actually means, and I 250 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,690 wrote this down, so I think it's really important. 251 00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:24,710 It means to like assign proper value to the event. 252 00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:29,530 So to rebuke someone includes a measure of assigning proper 253 00:14:29,540 --> 00:14:32,350 value. So the the real full definition 254 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,150 is to assign value as is fitting the circumstance. 255 00:14:36,340 --> 00:14:40,350 So in some sense, just because I think it's worth naming that we 256 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:47,320 as the perpetrated against get to make a a judgment call of 257 00:14:47,330 --> 00:14:50,960 some kind on what they've done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. 258 00:14:50,970 --> 00:14:52,760 And hopefully that's, you know, that's being done with 259 00:14:52,770 --> 00:14:56,870 counselors and pastors and friends and, you know, a whole 260 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,060 lot of outside help. Yeah, to to encourage you and 261 00:15:01,070 --> 00:15:04,080 get you to that place where you can accurately and truthfully 262 00:15:04,090 --> 00:15:07,660 name the wrong. But like in in Matthew just says 263 00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:11,980 if, if somebody's wrong, do you like go straight to them and try 264 00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:13,320 to work it out between the two of you? 265 00:15:13,330 --> 00:15:18,970 Like a measure of that is this, this language of rebuke, which 266 00:15:19,020 --> 00:15:22,530 means to assign the thing proper value. 267 00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:26,010 So if somebody has harmed you, what Jesus is not saying is 268 00:15:26,020 --> 00:15:28,610 don't blow it out of proportion, right? 269 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:34,260 But he's also saying don't don't and I'm struggling to find the 270 00:15:34,270 --> 00:15:36,140 exact words here. But like, don't make it too 271 00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:38,540 small of a thing either, like. Don't make it. 272 00:15:39,050 --> 00:15:40,680 You can underplay it. Yeah, yeah. 273 00:15:40,690 --> 00:15:43,030 And the case. So that's my admittedly that's 274 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,110 my tendency. And you kind of touched on it a 275 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,270 little bit where you talked about, you know, like that, that 276 00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:49,510 it's OK, you know, right. You mentioned that, you 277 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,410 mentioned that. And I think that's like, that's 278 00:15:51,450 --> 00:15:56,950 my bent is, is when I have been, when I have been hurt, I, my 279 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,500 tendency is to say it's fine, you know, like I, you know, even 280 00:16:00,510 --> 00:16:04,800 if I can say honestly that I've forgiven them, I will underplay 281 00:16:04,810 --> 00:16:08,700 and undermine the impact and the harm that it, it caused to me, 282 00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:10,520 you know, and, and that's my tendency. 283 00:16:10,530 --> 00:16:11,080 For sure. Right. 284 00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:13,760 So I think that sounds like it's OK, but I forgive you. 285 00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:15,940 Yeah. Or it's OK and I forgive you. 286 00:16:16,170 --> 00:16:21,260 Well, the those two sentences, those two clauses can't actually 287 00:16:21,270 --> 00:16:25,100 go together because if it is OK, there's nothing to forgive. 288 00:16:25,330 --> 00:16:26,620 And so I've actually started this. 289 00:16:26,630 --> 00:16:30,160 But I, I would say this, it says it's OK and I forgive you. 290 00:16:30,250 --> 00:16:32,360 Like, well, I'm speaking to myself now. 291 00:16:32,370 --> 00:16:33,960 Like, dummy, you can't like those two things. 292 00:16:34,030 --> 00:16:35,520 Yeah, be true. Yeah, they can't both be. 293 00:16:35,530 --> 00:16:36,700 True. I remember one time you and I 294 00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:39,810 were talking and and I and I was asking, you know, I was, I was 295 00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:41,830 apologizing for something that I had done and. 296 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,290 And you said and you said it's OK. 297 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:44,670 I came up with that came out. I came right? 298 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:45,870 Yeah, but yeah, you said it's OK. 299 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,300 And then you then you clawed that back. 300 00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:51,610 And he said, no, it's not OK, but I forgive you. 301 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:53,690 Yeah. I have no idea what that was. 302 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:56,970 Either it was not a it was not a big thing, certainly not a big 303 00:16:56,980 --> 00:16:59,590 thing, but it was enough that I felt I needed to do apologize, 304 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,550 OK. And and I remember you. 305 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,099 I remember you distinctly saying no, I'm gonna, yeah, gonna take 306 00:17:05,109 --> 00:17:06,859 that back. So that's what I've been trying 307 00:17:06,869 --> 00:17:08,319 to do. And I think I've seen it through 308 00:17:08,329 --> 00:17:12,910 the lens of my kids, which is like the best and worst mirror 309 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,550 to be looking into, right? Like when you raise a kid, 310 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,099 you're like, oh, my goodness, this is. 311 00:17:17,109 --> 00:17:19,390 Yeah, yeah. So what I started hearing, and I 312 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,020 think I mentioned this a little bit on Sunday, but what I 313 00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:25,300 started hearing was, you know, in my kids play also their 314 00:17:25,310 --> 00:17:27,300 language mimicked that same thing. 315 00:17:27,310 --> 00:17:29,860 So someone would apologize and then another one would say, it's 316 00:17:29,870 --> 00:17:32,350 OK. And I say, no, no, guys stop. 317 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,240 Like, hmm, like it's not. And so I've tried really hard to 318 00:17:35,250 --> 00:17:37,440 change my language around it to say, no, it's not OK, but I 319 00:17:37,450 --> 00:17:40,260 forgive you or it's not OK and I forgive you. 320 00:17:40,510 --> 00:17:43,420 I think the forgiveness carries much more weight if you 321 00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:46,720 recognize that the thing was wrong. 322 00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:53,740 And so I think that what Jesus is giving us here is a paradigm 323 00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:58,810 for saying it's not OK, I'm going to choose to forgive you, 324 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,320 but this thing is not OK. And so we need to separate this 325 00:18:03,370 --> 00:18:08,000 misunderstanding of forgiveness as simply excusing the wrong, 326 00:18:08,010 --> 00:18:12,080 because it is in fact, so adamantly the opposite. 327 00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:16,160 Forgiveness only is forgiveness if the wrong was wrong. 328 00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:19,970 Like otherwise forgiveness has no point and there's no merit to 329 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:22,340 it, and there's no weight to it and there's no significance to 330 00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:24,290 it. And it's not costly and it's not 331 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:28,040 significant at all if the wrong wasn't wrong. 332 00:18:28,110 --> 00:18:33,330 So just to fill out that whole point for people in really 333 00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:38,550 practical ways, if the wrong that was committed to you was 334 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:48,830 illegal, then part of the rebuke would be to seek proper recourse 335 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,230 because the, the, the break there, the, the rebuke actually 336 00:18:54,240 --> 00:19:02,860 needs in some way to be, um, comparable or adequate for like 337 00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:05,640 the wrong. So the, the wrong that has been 338 00:19:05,650 --> 00:19:10,720 done needs to be named as the wrong that was done. 339 00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:13,400 Yeah. And so part of that exactly. 340 00:19:13,450 --> 00:19:16,360 So, you know, I think of situations of like abusive 341 00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:23,250 marriages and where the church has been so improperly involved 342 00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:28,750 over, you know, the the centuries of saying to an abused 343 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,210 spouse, you need to forgive your abuser spouse. 344 00:19:33,260 --> 00:19:35,100 And also. Stand also stay in this 345 00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:37,830 relationship right and like that is something that that. 346 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,900 Is started man, that's. Something that's still, well, 347 00:19:39,910 --> 00:19:42,540 I'm like, it's something that is still said, right? 348 00:19:42,550 --> 00:19:44,680 Like you need to forgive, you need to forgive, you need to 349 00:19:44,690 --> 00:19:45,760 forgive. Yeah. 350 00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:49,710 And I think that what Jesus is saying here, you know, if a 351 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,990 brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them. 352 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,840 So for starters, like he, he's actually talking about Christian 353 00:19:54,850 --> 00:19:58,550 community. He's not he's yeah. 354 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,220 Like we could go down that rabbit trail. 355 00:20:00,230 --> 00:20:02,670 Like he's not giving specific marriage advice. 356 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,510 No. But even without that, he gives 357 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,810 in that rebuke them a path forward for someone to seek a 358 00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:15,910 proper measure of accountability. 359 00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:19,590 And so in that way I do think that like. 360 00:20:19,660 --> 00:20:23,970 Justice belongs to God. And ultimately the whole, the 361 00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:27,960 whole situation, Justice in the course of human history and 362 00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:31,840 salvation history, life and death, this life, the life to 363 00:20:31,850 --> 00:20:34,570 come, justice all belongs to God. 364 00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:43,970 And we have been given proper legal mechanisms for when in a 365 00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:46,110 community laws are broken. Yeah. 366 00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:48,510 So I just want to be so crystal clear about that. 367 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,950 And I, I, I was on the fence about whether to include this 368 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,230 part in the sermon or not, and it just did not work. 369 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,830 It felt like too abrupt of a stop at any point to include it. 370 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:01,730 That's why we're here, exactly. But I just think it's so 371 00:21:01,740 --> 00:21:05,530 important to say, like if if the wrong that is being committed 372 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:13,470 against you is abusive, is unrepentant, is illegal, like 373 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,220 the rebuke needs to match that level of wrong. 374 00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:20,200 Yes. That's not retribution, right? 375 00:21:20,210 --> 00:21:23,460 You're not trying to just harm the person back to the same 376 00:21:23,470 --> 00:21:26,530 degree that you've been harmed. But there is a certain level of 377 00:21:26,540 --> 00:21:28,970 accountability that happens in naming the wrong. 378 00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:30,570 Yeah. So like, if I'm wrong, you you 379 00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:33,370 need to name that to me. It's not comfortable to me, 380 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,570 like, but that's what rebuking is like. 381 00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:40,080 It's not comfortable if somebody wrongs you in a way that is 382 00:21:40,090 --> 00:21:42,680 illegal. The rebuke needs to actually 383 00:21:42,750 --> 00:21:49,630 have legal recourse, and that would not be a, um, that would 384 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,650 not be acting out of line with what Jesus is saying here. 385 00:21:52,660 --> 00:21:54,990 Yeah, they're still gonna be hard work of forgiveness that 386 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,790 you need to do. And there's still gonna be hard 387 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,070 work of like, well, what does reconciliation look like in that 388 00:21:59,080 --> 00:21:59,990 situation? Right. 389 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,470 And is reconciliation always possible? 390 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,350 Yeah. Yeah. 391 00:22:04,420 --> 00:22:10,110 But I think that just to name that as bluntly as I can, in a 392 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,190 similar way, Jesus is so crystal clear here. 393 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:18,810 He says if someone wrongs you and comes back and apologizes 394 00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:26,130 for it, their owning their wrong right then he says forgive them 395 00:22:26,180 --> 00:22:29,350 if they repent. If they repent, forgive them. 396 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:34,690 He's not saying if somebody is harming you perpetually and is, 397 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:37,880 you know, unrepentant to the thing. 398 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,830 And if you've rebuked them, like if you've actually gone and 399 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,790 confronted them and challenged them on it. 400 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,930 And if it's not worked and you've gone and gathered other 401 00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:47,590 people and together you've gone like maybe with another person 402 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,010 or with a therapist or like a pastor, somebody you've gone 403 00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:54,850 buddy is still not repentant. That's not the situation that 404 00:22:54,860 --> 00:22:56,190 Jesus is talking about here either. 405 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,490 No. So just to be crystal clear on 406 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,810 on those kinds of outside scenarios that can happen. 407 00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:09,430 So just because I think it the way that that it's phrase here, 408 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,270 it's worth just asking the question. 409 00:23:13,090 --> 00:23:17,780 So when Jesus says if your brother or sister sins against 410 00:23:17,790 --> 00:23:22,940 you, rebuke them and if they repent, forgive them. 411 00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:29,630 So is forgiveness contingent? Does it hinge on their 412 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,490 repentance? I think a, I think, yes, like 413 00:23:34,530 --> 00:23:39,930 the fullest, most ideal, proper definition of forgiveness does 414 00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:42,710 include repentance and reconciliation. 415 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,370 Yeah. So both of those things, right. 416 00:23:45,420 --> 00:23:49,870 Like the goal of Christian forgiveness is reconciliation. 417 00:23:49,940 --> 00:23:58,080 The goal is correction in a way that leads to a better, more 418 00:23:58,090 --> 00:24:01,380 flourishing relationship. Again, that's not always 419 00:24:01,390 --> 00:24:03,860 possible. So Miroslav Volf, he wrote a 420 00:24:03,870 --> 00:24:06,800 number of books on forgiveness and reconciliation. 421 00:24:06,810 --> 00:24:10,580 And I can't remember if it's in his book Exclusion and Embrace, 422 00:24:10,690 --> 00:24:14,980 which is kind of one of the most famous ones where he he plays 423 00:24:14,990 --> 00:24:17,830 with the idea of like, well, what about forgiveness where 424 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,000 reconciliation is not possible, right. 425 00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:24,580 But even just to say, what about forgiveness when the perpetrator 426 00:24:24,590 --> 00:24:26,680 has died? So let's say you grew up in a 427 00:24:26,690 --> 00:24:31,390 really abusive household and you got out early and, you know, 428 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,250 then there's a traumatic or sudden sort of early death for 429 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:38,460 like a parent, and that person is no longer available. 430 00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:41,520 And you're just left with all of this stuff like that, you 431 00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:43,950 haven't been able to work out or process with them. 432 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,670 And, and sometimes what they get you to do that I, I've, you 433 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,850 know, been in situations like in therapy, they're talking about 434 00:24:48,860 --> 00:24:52,220 like you, you can still, you can still work toward forgiveness. 435 00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:56,170 You can still they do the inner work and the hard work and 436 00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:58,860 sometimes it's writing a letter, sometimes it's even then 437 00:24:58,870 --> 00:25:01,120 writing, reading it and they sometimes I say like burn it 438 00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:03,080 afterwards, You know, things like that, right. 439 00:25:03,150 --> 00:25:06,020 You know, because there are there. 440 00:25:06,030 --> 00:25:10,660 Being gone doesn't change the the hurt that was caused to you. 441 00:25:10,820 --> 00:25:12,800 Yeah, yeah. So I think that there are still, 442 00:25:12,810 --> 00:25:15,940 you can still walk through these steps even if that person is not 443 00:25:15,950 --> 00:25:18,880 available to you. It's going to be harder. 444 00:25:19,090 --> 00:25:26,380 And I would almost say like categorically, and I almost 445 00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:31,230 never say this like just absolutely true 100% of the 446 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,760 time. If that's a situation that you 447 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:37,770 find yourself in where you have this like resentment and 448 00:25:37,780 --> 00:25:40,870 bitterness and hurt and harm that's been done and inflicted 449 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,170 and you need to forgive somebody. 450 00:25:42,180 --> 00:25:46,760 And that person is like has died or is in prison. 451 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,940 Like if, if you cannot, if you cannot have a conversation with 452 00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:54,540 that person, that in my mind is like, hey, you need to also be 453 00:25:54,550 --> 00:25:58,140 seeing a therapist like all the time, 100% of the time. 454 00:25:58,370 --> 00:25:59,720 That's the. That's the the. 455 00:25:59,730 --> 00:26:01,140 Level you find a good one, we know. 456 00:26:01,150 --> 00:26:02,630 Lots. That's the level, yeah. 457 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,800 That's the level of of yeah, of I think just help and 458 00:26:06,810 --> 00:26:09,040 encouragement and challenge that that you would need. 459 00:26:09,050 --> 00:26:12,880 So I very rarely do I say this like category 100% of the time 460 00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:14,500 if this is the situation that you're in. 461 00:26:14,510 --> 00:26:19,750 I just feel so deeply that it is so it is so difficult to walk 462 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,510 out forgiveness when reconciliation is not a 463 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,670 possibility that that in my mind, you need someone walking 464 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,990 with you every step of that way because as soon as you as soon 465 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,190 as you take. So if the Christian ideal, 466 00:26:34,340 --> 00:26:37,050 right, if the if the created ideal is and I think we see this 467 00:26:37,060 --> 00:26:41,720 all throughout Scripture is that there's been wrong committed, 468 00:26:42,790 --> 00:26:46,060 there is rebuke or like some level of confrontation. 469 00:26:46,110 --> 00:26:49,810 They're naming the thing. And then there is repentance, 470 00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:56,720 forgiveness, reconciliation, O if that is the full, you know, 471 00:26:56,790 --> 00:27:00,970 like trajectory of the thing ideally done. 472 00:27:01,050 --> 00:27:06,800 If any one of those steps is not possible, it just becomes so 473 00:27:06,810 --> 00:27:10,060 much more difficult that I think that that that should be queuing 474 00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:12,120 you to go and talk to somebody about it. 475 00:27:12,250 --> 00:27:18,280 So, so there are lots of situations where forgiveness 476 00:27:18,350 --> 00:27:22,980 will need to be an internal act and where reconciliation may not 477 00:27:22,990 --> 00:27:27,190 be possible due to absence or death or just it was a, an 478 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,770 irreconcilable situation. But I think this is worth naming 479 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,490 that there are lots of times where reconciliation is 480 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:41,710 possible, ought to be possible. Knowing where that line is going 481 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,100 to be a little tricky sometimes. Like where is the line between 482 00:27:44,110 --> 00:27:47,790 this is your irreconcilable or this is, this is salvageable. 483 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,170 That can be a tricky balance to, to know. 484 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,550 But all that is to say is like, I think we can say 485 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,650 categorically, like there reconciliation a lot of the time 486 00:27:58,790 --> 00:28:01,540 is plausible and should be sought. 487 00:28:01,610 --> 00:28:06,740 Yeah, sometimes our lack of forgiveness is what gets in the 488 00:28:06,750 --> 00:28:11,540 way. And sometimes my inability to to 489 00:28:11,550 --> 00:28:16,080 recognize the good of reconciliation and the necessity 490 00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:19,660 of it can, can, can, can cause that rift and keep that rift 491 00:28:20,130 --> 00:28:21,300 indefinitely. Right. 492 00:28:21,310 --> 00:28:22,240 Yeah. And I think it's just worth 493 00:28:22,250 --> 00:28:25,110 naming because there are some situations that we have told 494 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,500 ourselves, we've told a lie to ourselves that this is 495 00:28:27,670 --> 00:28:31,100 irreconcilable, this is not able to to be salvaged. 496 00:28:32,270 --> 00:28:34,960 But actually it probably is if we do the work. 497 00:28:35,790 --> 00:28:37,580 Yeah. And so let me name a couple 498 00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:42,470 other things that that we we talk about often right and that 499 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,270 is a reconciled relationship isn't simply that things go back 500 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:47,670 to the way they were. Yeah. 501 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,130 And I just wanna like so if we're like looking through the 502 00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:53,080 lens of a camera here, this be like zooming out like if you're 503 00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:55,520 gonna put 3 camera, I know, I know, but we're not going to 504 00:28:55,530 --> 00:28:57,310 zoom any of them. That would be but like you know, 505 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,430 so zoom out, pull back, picture the plane flying over 40,000 506 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,310 foot view of reconciliation for a second. 507 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,040 Because ultimately for the Christian, our reconciliation, 508 00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:09,470 like our forgiveness and reconciliation, this horizon, 509 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,740 these horizontal relationships are all based on the forgiveness 510 00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:16,000 and reconciliation that God offers to us. 511 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,500 And one is not possible without the other. 512 00:29:18,510 --> 00:29:22,860 Like the reconciliation that happens in this horizontal plane 513 00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:26,530 of relationship and experience is not possible fully without 514 00:29:26,590 --> 00:29:30,860 the reconciliation work between you and God. 515 00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:37,700 So if we look at our like the just again, just a very simple 516 00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:42,520 hop, skip and a jump overview of reconciliation between humanity 517 00:29:42,530 --> 00:29:44,700 and God, between the individual and God. 518 00:29:45,570 --> 00:29:51,320 Um, if the so the relationship you even talk about like 519 00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:56,150 Genesis, you look at the first few chapters of Genesis and no 520 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,610 matter how you read it, the truth that it conveys is perfect 521 00:29:59,620 --> 00:30:02,350 relationship between humanity and God. 522 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:11,190 Brokenness almost immediately comes into play and creates this 523 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,130 broken relationship between humanity and God. 524 00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:20,760 Um, brokenness then begets brokenness, right? 525 00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:24,500 Like harm begets harm. So you go very quickly. 526 00:30:24,510 --> 00:30:26,760 I think it's in like the first four chapters of Genesis. 527 00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:32,340 You go from perfect like create creation. 528 00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:34,800 God says it's good. Hmm. 529 00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:36,320 Macy's. Hey, Adam probably shouldn't be 530 00:30:36,330 --> 00:30:38,680 alone. So I'm gonna create Eve now even 531 00:30:38,690 --> 00:30:40,600 but like this is good. This is good. 532 00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:43,960 They walked with God. Brokenness enters into the 533 00:30:43,970 --> 00:30:47,250 equation. They eat of the fruit and then 534 00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:51,850 very quickly Kane kills Abel but it's like 4 chapters in and you 535 00:30:51,860 --> 00:30:52,810 get great. Awesome. 536 00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:56,410 Like that's a rock solid start for humanity. 537 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,470 So you know, like the early, early scriptures tell this 538 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,370 story. Yes, ultimately of this ideal 539 00:31:04,380 --> 00:31:08,250 created, ordered right relationship between God and 540 00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:10,270 humanity. But what has always been at play 541 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,700 in it is brokenness. And so, you know, you and I, and 542 00:31:15,710 --> 00:31:18,880 this is like, this is theology that people do, you know, debate 543 00:31:18,890 --> 00:31:24,440 over, but, you know, born into the same brokenness as Adam and 544 00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:25,010 Eve. Yeah. 545 00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:30,000 Like, first experience, right. Cain and Abel, born into that 546 00:31:30,010 --> 00:31:31,690 brokenness. They didn't experience anything 547 00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:34,020 other than that brokenness. There's lots of fancy 548 00:31:34,030 --> 00:31:37,420 theological terms we don't need to get into but but it is, I 549 00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:41,760 mean, however you split it, I don't think it's hard to. 550 00:31:42,410 --> 00:31:45,340 I don't think it's a controversial to say like, hey, 551 00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:48,740 whether, whether you are, whether you are born into it or 552 00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:52,000 whether it's something that's very early on you, you learn, 553 00:31:52,010 --> 00:31:58,440 you know, we are all in a broken world and will participate in 554 00:31:58,450 --> 00:32:00,080 said brokenness, yes. Absolutely. 555 00:32:00,090 --> 00:32:03,660 Yeah. So part of the the reconciling 556 00:32:03,670 --> 00:32:06,280 work of Jesus on the cross and redeeming work of Jesus on the 557 00:32:06,290 --> 00:32:11,640 cross is to is to make whole again, make right that broken 558 00:32:11,650 --> 00:32:13,700 relationship between humanity and God. 559 00:32:13,870 --> 00:32:18,320 Now, you know, I think that when you look at the course of 560 00:32:18,330 --> 00:32:20,480 individual human lives, like, you know, that brokenness is 561 00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:23,420 still at play and and salvation is being worked out and none of 562 00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:28,650 us are perfect. And you know, eventually though, 563 00:32:28,770 --> 00:32:32,820 we talk about this full arc of scripture that goes from right 564 00:32:32,830 --> 00:32:36,820 good created, ordered to write good, recreated and ordered. 565 00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:42,100 So there will be a day where brokenness and sin and suffering 566 00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:45,920 and these deep things of the human experience that we all 567 00:32:45,930 --> 00:32:49,580 know are no longer part of it are gone and done away with. 568 00:32:49,630 --> 00:32:55,410 Until then, we kind of live in this, you know, halfway there. 569 00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:59,740 It's already being lived out, but it's not yet lived out in 570 00:32:59,750 --> 00:33:03,060 its completion. Brokenness is still a part of 571 00:33:03,070 --> 00:33:05,140 life. But we have a, we have a picture 572 00:33:05,150 --> 00:33:11,030 and a model of this rightly ordered recreated relationship 573 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,400 that is different. And this is what this is what I 574 00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:19,170 would challenge people with is, is different than the 575 00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:23,050 relationship as it started. So, and, and this is where like 576 00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:25,900 when you look at the full arc of Scripture, you go, yes, 577 00:33:25,910 --> 00:33:29,680 perfection to perfection, good to good creation to recreation, 578 00:33:29,730 --> 00:33:32,160 but we're not there. But none of us, none of us exist 579 00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:34,040 at either of those moments, right? 580 00:33:34,110 --> 00:33:38,440 So, you know, we human beings born into brokenness suffer its 581 00:33:38,450 --> 00:33:42,100 consequences and contribute to other people's brokenness, 582 00:33:42,150 --> 00:33:44,060 broken relationship toward God's will. 583 00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:46,360 God wants to take our relationship from that broken 584 00:33:46,370 --> 00:33:50,670 place to a better place. And it's different after, you 585 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,480 know, the work of Jesus on the cross and our waking up to the 586 00:33:54,490 --> 00:33:58,010 work that Jesus does on the cross and becoming aware of the 587 00:33:58,020 --> 00:34:00,310 Kingdom of God and what God is doing in the world. 588 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,900 It is different on the other side of it. 589 00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:06,430 So if I could just and, and hopefully people have followed 590 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:12,170 this far and if not, we can cut this part out, but I think it 591 00:34:12,179 --> 00:34:16,960 would be a misunderstanding of forgiveness and reconciliation 592 00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:20,420 to articulate that my relationship with God just went 593 00:34:20,429 --> 00:34:23,340 back to the way it was. Well, no, it hasn't. 594 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,550 Like if I've been forgiven, if I am being reconciled to God, then 595 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,670 my relationship is in a different place now than it was 596 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,310 before that reconciliation. Yeah. 597 00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:36,170 OK. And that's what I want people to 598 00:34:36,179 --> 00:34:37,790 hear. So forgiveness and 599 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,130 reconciliation doesn't mean that your relationship with the 600 00:34:40,139 --> 00:34:43,080 individual just goes back to the way it was before, because 601 00:34:43,090 --> 00:34:46,989 that's a broken place. It has to be different. 602 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,080 It has to be better. It has to be in a a a more 603 00:34:51,090 --> 00:34:57,800 loving and more faithful recreation of relationship that 604 00:34:57,810 --> 00:34:59,580 God has designed us for. Yeah. 605 00:34:59,950 --> 00:35:04,560 If it's not, then I think there are some questions to ask, like 606 00:35:04,610 --> 00:35:07,040 is it really forgiveness and reconciliation? 607 00:35:07,050 --> 00:35:09,300 And are both parties working toward forgiveness and 608 00:35:09,310 --> 00:35:10,540 reconciliation? Yeah. 609 00:35:10,610 --> 00:35:14,160 And what are the boundaries that you need in place in order to 610 00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:18,980 help push that that relationship into the healthiest and most 611 00:35:18,990 --> 00:35:21,690 reconciled place? So it's not simply, and this is 612 00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:25,280 what I want people to hear this whole rant is it's not just 613 00:35:25,290 --> 00:35:29,300 going back to the way that the way things were before, because 614 00:35:29,570 --> 00:35:32,020 we all know that the way things were before wasn't good. 615 00:35:32,090 --> 00:35:35,840 Yeah, because obviously there was a there was wrong and there 616 00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:37,740 was harm and there was hurt and there was brokenness. 617 00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:40,940 So. And so the whole goal of 618 00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:44,030 reconciliation isn't to take the relationship back to the way it 619 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,100 was. The whole goal is to make it 620 00:35:46,110 --> 00:35:50,020 more like God's reconcile the relationship between him and 621 00:35:50,030 --> 00:35:53,340 humanity and ultimately what it will be in the new creation. 622 00:35:53,390 --> 00:35:55,200 So it's we're working in, in that correction. 623 00:35:55,210 --> 00:35:57,160 We're not trying to get back to the way things were. 624 00:35:57,290 --> 00:36:02,160 One, OK, one other wrinkle, because reality is full of that 625 00:36:02,670 --> 00:36:08,160 like agreed that that is the the ideal life is not always ideal. 626 00:36:08,910 --> 00:36:12,620 So I, I'm, I'm going to tease out a situation just in my own 627 00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:15,760 life without, without getting, getting too much detail or you 628 00:36:15,770 --> 00:36:17,020 know this, you're not my therapist. 629 00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:21,380 This is not a therapy session. Yeah, public therapy podcasts 630 00:36:21,390 --> 00:36:25,020 would be a horrible. Idea terrible so bad, but but 631 00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:31,060 just to sort of like wrestle out that kind of that idea of 632 00:36:31,070 --> 00:36:34,280 reconciliation always, you know, yes, it ought to be different. 633 00:36:34,590 --> 00:36:38,480 Sometimes it may not be better and it may just be different. 634 00:36:38,490 --> 00:36:41,080 And so, so I'm thinking of a situation in my life over the 635 00:36:41,090 --> 00:36:46,560 years where where there was harm done, where there where I was 636 00:36:46,570 --> 00:36:50,290 the wounded party. Years later, I set up some 637 00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:54,350 boundaries and, and was not in relationship whatsoever with 638 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,450 that person for a season or that was I made that conscious choice 639 00:36:57,460 --> 00:37:00,940 that I need to this is, this is an unsafe relationship that I 640 00:37:00,950 --> 00:37:07,580 need to separate from. And since then there's been, you 641 00:37:07,590 --> 00:37:11,860 know, lots of communication and, and I would say forms of 642 00:37:11,870 --> 00:37:16,000 reconciliation. But at the end of the day, the 643 00:37:16,010 --> 00:37:19,530 other party has not done their job. 644 00:37:19,870 --> 00:37:22,210 I've done my job. I've done my work. 645 00:37:22,270 --> 00:37:27,040 I've, I've, I've expressed and lived out forgiveness and worked 646 00:37:27,050 --> 00:37:31,220 toward reconciliation. The other party has not done 647 00:37:31,230 --> 00:37:34,410 their job. There's no one that anyone 648 00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:36,610 knows. So it's fine, great, but but it 649 00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:41,770 is like one of those one of those situations where our 650 00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:46,910 relationship exists. It is, it is a it is there, but 651 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,250 it is not fully reconciled. It is, it's different. 652 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,190 It is, it is semi reconciled. And that's sort of that the 653 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,690 tension that I think partly we run into into our in our broken 654 00:37:57,700 --> 00:38:02,170 world where it it takes 2 to make that happen. 655 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,150 And yeah. Yeah, I think that you, you 656 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,580 again without, without going, we don't want to go too far down 657 00:38:12,670 --> 00:38:15,120 the the specifics of this situation. 658 00:38:15,170 --> 00:38:18,200 I think though, even in the way that you've retold the story, 659 00:38:18,860 --> 00:38:23,800 you start, I start to ask questions around, you know, does 660 00:38:24,210 --> 00:38:28,660 does this person understand rightly what repentance is? 661 00:38:29,610 --> 00:38:33,020 Because if we understand repentance as a changing of mind 662 00:38:33,190 --> 00:38:37,130 and a changing of action, like there's literally a changing of 663 00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:40,480 of course, so your mind has to change. 664 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:44,600 You have to think differently about the thing and you have to 665 00:38:44,610 --> 00:38:49,860 change your direction of lived out life like your, your, your 666 00:38:49,870 --> 00:38:52,740 actions also have to change. So you know, there's, there's 667 00:38:52,750 --> 00:38:55,280 two different words in the New Testament for that kind of 668 00:38:55,290 --> 00:38:57,760 repentance. There's one that is like a a 669 00:38:57,770 --> 00:38:59,860 changing of your mind. And then there is one that is a 670 00:38:59,870 --> 00:39:02,080 turning and walking in the other direction. 671 00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:05,390 And I think that part of repentance actually, and part of 672 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,240 what the New Testament challenges us toward is that 673 00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:10,840 both of those things are true. Your mind has to change and your 674 00:39:10,850 --> 00:39:14,730 actions have to change. And if that's not happening, but 675 00:39:14,740 --> 00:39:19,120 then that's not repentance. It might be partial repentance. 676 00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:22,540 It might be some of the way there because like this is also 677 00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:24,820 the difficult thing about faith is that it's not 100% 678 00:39:24,830 --> 00:39:27,680 immediately. Like you know, it can take a 679 00:39:27,690 --> 00:39:29,900 long time. 20 years from now, this could be very. 680 00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:32,100 Different. It could be a very yeah, but but 681 00:39:32,110 --> 00:39:37,660 I do think that what I encourage people to do is guard their 682 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:41,810 measure of. So yes, you're you're called to 683 00:39:41,820 --> 00:39:46,350 forgive. What I think is clear is that 684 00:39:46,420 --> 00:39:52,910 the repentance is required. And if that repentance is not 685 00:39:52,980 --> 00:39:57,350 evident over not just like it's this isn't just saying I'm 686 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,210 sorry, right? It's not just yeah, sorry, I did 687 00:40:00,220 --> 00:40:01,370 that. No, this is. 688 00:40:01,380 --> 00:40:03,390 This is. I am deeply sorry. 689 00:40:04,210 --> 00:40:07,480 And we're going to work together to figure out how that doesn't 690 00:40:07,490 --> 00:40:09,630 happen again. Yeah. 691 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,970 And you help me and I will help you Like, again. 692 00:40:11,980 --> 00:40:14,110 We don't wanna put the put. Don't put the burden on the 693 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,090 person who was harmed to, you know, make it better. 694 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:18,850 But like, I think part of repentance is to say is, is 695 00:40:18,860 --> 00:40:23,980 having the willingness to say, um, I recognize the wrong that 696 00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:27,830 I've done and I recognize my actions need to change in this 697 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,800 situation. O you know, as they don't 698 00:40:32,810 --> 00:40:37,780 change, you have full weight and authority to say, Hey, this is 699 00:40:37,790 --> 00:40:39,540 the thing we've talked about this. 700 00:40:39,610 --> 00:40:42,100 Like that's the level of, of repentance. 701 00:40:42,110 --> 00:40:44,000 It's here's what I'm committing to. 702 00:40:44,190 --> 00:40:45,900 Here's the evidence that you're going to see. 703 00:40:45,950 --> 00:40:48,180 And I hope and pray that you see it over the long run. 704 00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:54,630 But if, if that's not evidenced, then then I, I really wrestle 705 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,710 out the OK, what's the weight of the is it an apology? 706 00:40:58,870 --> 00:41:00,840 Hmm. Because that's also different. 707 00:41:01,550 --> 00:41:04,860 Or is it true repentance? Yeah, where someone is saying, 708 00:41:04,870 --> 00:41:10,880 no, I'm understand that what I've done is harmed you and 709 00:41:11,530 --> 00:41:15,220 you're going to see my actions change because of the death of 710 00:41:15,230 --> 00:41:18,600 my understanding. Yeah, so. 711 00:41:18,660 --> 00:41:27,230 So I think that where where you don't see that, then I think the 712 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:28,730 conversation rightly should be OK. 713 00:41:28,740 --> 00:41:31,700 Well, what boundaries do you need to have in place with an 714 00:41:31,710 --> 00:41:34,480 individual so that you're not just constantly putting yourself 715 00:41:34,490 --> 00:41:36,960 in harm's way again? Does that start to answer it? 716 00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:38,400 Yeah, yeah, I know. I think so. 717 00:41:38,410 --> 00:41:40,580 It's it's man. It's this is messy. 718 00:41:40,590 --> 00:41:44,170 Life is messy. I think we've actually like in 719 00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:49,390 we, we didn't directly answer the individuals question that 720 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,750 was sent yesterday, but we actually answered all of it in 721 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,910 in the course of our conversation just through the 722 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,010 nature of of this. But anything left on the table 723 00:41:59,020 --> 00:42:03,270 that you want to touch on? Two things really briefly #1 if 724 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,090 you want to read a book on forgiveness, just to help your 725 00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:09,910 head kind of get there, like if that's the part of you that's is 726 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,970 wrestling it out. Timothy Keller's book called 727 00:42:12,980 --> 00:42:16,310 Forgive is a really good resource. 728 00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:20,050 He talks about in that book, and this is what I did want to 729 00:42:20,060 --> 00:42:23,300 mention two two things that are required for forgiveness and he 730 00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:29,970 talks about more, but the one being inner poverty or humility 731 00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:33,410 being required to forgive and the other which we don't talk 732 00:42:33,420 --> 00:42:38,200 about often enough, I think he calls it inner wealth and that 733 00:42:38,210 --> 00:42:42,320 is the the love of God O in. Generosity and. 734 00:42:42,430 --> 00:42:49,060 No, no, like in the internalized love of a God who is more loving 735 00:42:49,070 --> 00:42:51,280 toward you than you are to yourself. 736 00:42:51,330 --> 00:42:54,420 OHP that's beautiful. Like that's the so so 737 00:42:54,970 --> 00:42:57,900 forgiveness has to come from this place of, yes, inner 738 00:42:57,910 --> 00:43:00,740 poverty or humility. It has to come from a place of 739 00:43:01,030 --> 00:43:04,620 like recognizing that you are choosing to suffer. 740 00:43:04,830 --> 00:43:06,780 And I think that's like that's the language, right? 741 00:43:06,850 --> 00:43:13,800 So to forgive somebody is to choose to suffer and instead 742 00:43:13,810 --> 00:43:19,010 say, I will not, I will not work for retribution. 743 00:43:19,020 --> 00:43:22,250 I will not try to get from you. I will not hold it over you. 744 00:43:22,260 --> 00:43:25,070 I will not try to make you feel the same measure of pain you've 745 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,430 made me feel. It is to to to eat it right. 746 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,000 It's to say I will take it. It's not right. 747 00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:37,490 I'm not going to put up with it. But I am willing to bear the 748 00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:41,370 suffering for your sake. So that requires humility. 749 00:43:41,420 --> 00:43:46,820 You can also only do that from a place that is deeply loved and 750 00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:49,760 you like. Forgiveness is possible when you 751 00:43:49,770 --> 00:43:53,560 realize, yes, how much you've been forgiven, but the love that 752 00:43:53,570 --> 00:43:59,250 that carries and it comes from a place, a deep understanding and 753 00:43:59,260 --> 00:44:05,260 experience of God's love over you being vastly more important 754 00:44:05,330 --> 00:44:08,480 than even that individual's love for you, right? 755 00:44:08,530 --> 00:44:14,240 So you can say I am secure in my knowledge of God's love and my 756 00:44:14,250 --> 00:44:18,320 experience of God's love. And from that wealth, inner 757 00:44:18,330 --> 00:44:22,120 wealth, I will choose to forgive you because I don't actually 758 00:44:22,130 --> 00:44:29,030 need the quote love that may or may not come through this act of 759 00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:32,550 forgiveness and reconciliation. What you're saying is the the 760 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,670 storehouse that I have is from. God, there's a groundedness in 761 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,700 that there is a groundedness in your and security in your 762 00:44:38,710 --> 00:44:42,210 relationship with God and and the knowledge of who you are 763 00:44:42,380 --> 00:44:45,530 that that will say like, I don't, I don't need that. 764 00:44:45,540 --> 00:44:48,330 You know, forgiveness from you would be nice or reconciliation 765 00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:51,570 from you would be nice or apology would be nice. 766 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,390 Restitution would be nice, but I don't need it you. 767 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,360 Know so if you want to read someone who wrestles that out. 768 00:44:58,370 --> 00:45:00,280 So Keller will be good for your head. 769 00:45:00,370 --> 00:45:02,560 Henry Nowen will be good for your heart. 770 00:45:03,110 --> 00:45:09,630 Life of the Beloved, there's so many, so many books of his that 771 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,350 really are helpful. So that's number two. 772 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,950 So, so check out Kelly's book for your head. 773 00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:16,710 Check out Henry now and for your heart. 774 00:45:16,780 --> 00:45:19,750 And then Justin behind you is Henry Cloud's book. 775 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,810 So Cloud and Townsend wrote a book on boundaries that we give 776 00:45:22,820 --> 00:45:24,370 out all the time. And it's on the bookshelf. 777 00:45:24,380 --> 00:45:26,910 And I don't know that you can see it behind Justin on the 778 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,210 bookshelf, but it's here. It's literally right there. 779 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:35,370 And that is a good book if you need to start to wrestle out 780 00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:40,390 what boundaries look like in your life as you work toward 781 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,010 forgiveness and reconciliation. So boundaries with friends, 782 00:45:43,020 --> 00:45:45,750 boundaries with spouses, boundaries with ex spouses, 783 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,600 boundaries with parents, adult bound like adult children, 784 00:45:48,610 --> 00:45:51,490 boundaries, boundaries with, with, with like it just he 785 00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:55,150 covers a whole lot of it. And it's a good primer for 786 00:45:55,210 --> 00:45:57,850 wrestling at what healthy boundaries can and should look 787 00:45:57,860 --> 00:45:59,250 like. So three resources. 788 00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:00,910 But I think at the end of the day, what I want people to know 789 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,140 is it does, it requires humility and it requires, um, wealth, 790 00:46:05,150 --> 00:46:07,750 this inner wealth, an understanding and experience of 791 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,130 God's love. And so if I could end that way, 792 00:46:10,140 --> 00:46:12,230 I think that's what we're gonna be praying for you this week. 793 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,950 Yeah. Is that you would know an 794 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,750 experience that inner poverty, what it means to be poor in 795 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,810 spirit, what it means to know your need for God and what it 796 00:46:22,820 --> 00:46:29,620 means to be loved vastly beyond you could imagine or quantify by 797 00:46:29,630 --> 00:46:33,950 that same God from that place start to allow it to impact your 798 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,400 relationships. O thanks for listening. 799 00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:39,150 Thanks for watching. We hope that this finds you in a 800 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,410 good place this week and challenges you to have more 801 00:46:41,420 --> 00:46:47,150 conversations like Justin and yeah and family out for a walk. 802 00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:50,000 Love that. And yeah, we will see you in the 803 00:46:50,010 --> 00:46:50,660 next episode.