Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy.
I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora.
Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of
queer media. Representation matters, and
we're. Here to talk about it cheers
queers this month for Big Gay Book Club.
We are slide tackling right into Clevecute Soccer book of our
dreams. But we are not alone.
Joining us today is the author, Merrill Wilsner.
Welcome to the podcast, Merrill. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited to be here. So awesome.
We are very. Excited that have a great talk
to us. I think, 'cause I think I
screamed a little bit when when we got the e-mail, so all right.
You know, I I love talking about myself so.
There's a reason we have a. Podcast, so you're in good
company. So let's open with the way Cleat
Cute opens in the best way possible, with a quote from the
soccer legend slash queer icon Megan Rapinoe.
You can't win a championship without gaze on your team Truth.
Yes. So the novel explores the
wonderful reality that professional women's soccer is a
queer haven. True.
So what was the what was your inspiration for this novel?
So I got really into the women's national team in 2015.
That was Canada, right? It was 2015.
Yeah. That's when I like, I mean, I
had been, you know, I had been a fan.
I, like, knew of them. I liked them.
But I was very much like a bandwagon, you know, watched
during the World Cup or the Olympics and then like pieced
out, never thought about them again.
Like got very into it at those times and then never thought
about them again in between. And so 2015 was sort of the
first time that, you know, I could, I could name all of the
players and I could give you backgrounds of them.
I could often tell you who was dating whom or who had dated
whom. And then, like, I got into, you
know, the NWSL, the professional women's Soccer League in the US
from that and went to at my first NWSL game sort of as like
a honeymoon with my wife. We didn't really take a
honeymoon. We just did like a weekend in DC
the week after our wedding and yeah, went to an NWSL game.
And so, yeah, I just got, I got very into it.
Then I I think I've sort of pulled back a little bit.
I really like it, but I'm not sort of devoted to it, to
women's soccer in the in the same way that I used to be.
But yeah, I just so I I loved that idea.
And then another author, actually a young adult author,
Mary Roach, whose book Better Left Buried comes out next year.
I refer to it as Roller Coaster Roller Coaster Murder Lesbians.
It's a it's it's Aya Thriller. I I think there's a theme park.
I think it's an abandoned theme park.
I ran it a long time ago. I the new the newest the new
version is somewhere in this living room.
But yeah it comes out next year and Mary and I had originally
decided we were going to Co write what eventually became
clete cute and talked about you know like a veteran and a new
player and just sort of went back and forth like yelling
ideas at each other. Which is to be honest how most
of my books start. They don't always start with
like a the idea of a Co writer but like me yelling ideas at my
friends and my friends yelling ideas back at me tend to be like
how my books begin. So yeah so we did.
We did that for a little while. I had a whole, we had a whole
like not just a Google Doc but like a whole folder with it with
like a spreadsheet, couple different spreadsheets and and
then it just got to a point where I was like, I'm ready for
that to be my next book. And Mary was like, Oh yeah, I'm
never actually going to write this like it's yours, which is
good because they write so fast and I write so slowly.
So I I don't know how it would have worked Co writing, but
yeah, so so that was sort of the genesis of the idea and then I
got to take it myself and run with it.
That's so awesome. So, but how did you come up with
the title? The see, I just have to give
credit to other people all, all the time.
The title is actually Rosie Thor who's another author.
They did a on Twitter. They did a whole thread of like
different takes on meet Q. And I think it started with like
a butcher or something and it was meet Q and it just kept
going and like a podiatrist feat cute like just just continued
and continued like a sheep Shearer bleat cute.
And I did a soccer player and said cleat cute and I I had not
at that point. I think I was still planning to
write it with Mary Roach. And so at that point I was like,
Oh my gosh, like Ken, Mary and I use this for the title of our
soccer book. And Rosie said yeah, and I never
wavered on that. I was like that is that's the
title the whole way because I I just love it.
It's so good, it's pretty genius.
It was all it was all Rosie Thor.
It's just a it's just a perfect. I don't know.
A lot of times I look at titles and I'm like, I can see how that
works. But this is just tell.
I think it kind of just tells you a lot about the book before
you read it, which is cute. It's cute.
Oh my God.
Someone, someone tagged me in a review recently that said that
they called it click cute like 400 times and I was like perfect
like just another reason that this is a perfect title.
Thank you. Absolutely that that's a
interesting version there, but. Also telling a certain.
Chapter also telling very. Well.
Yeah, I think. I think it's like chapter 12 or
13. Wonderful.
It's like this, this, yeah. Both I think, well.
So when we meet Grace and Phoebe, it's apparent they're
very different people. So what makes them connect and
how did you want that dynamic to come across?
Yeah, you know, it's very much like grumpy sunshine.
Like obviously Phoebe is just a ball of energy unmedicated,
ADHD, you know, off the wall and really a jokester.
And Grace is very serious and you know, sort of regulated and
follows the rules and you know, regimented in that way, but also
works very hard. And that's really where they
connect, is like they both love soccer and like Grace doesn't
understand Phoebe for a lot of it.
But when she like, when they both like, you know, get to know
each other and dig into sort of the reasons behind things that
they do, even though they're so different in their approach, a
lot of that sort of the most important things to them are the
same things. And so, yeah, like, Phoebe is
joking all the time and laughing all the time and all of this,
But she's also working really hard on the field, and Grace
really respects that. And like, their confidence level
is is also very similar, even if even though they go about that
very differently, you know, Grace is just quietly, like,
this is what I do, This is what I need to do.
I'm gonna get it done. And Phoebe's like, I'm gonna,
you know, make a bet that I'm gonna beat you at this, 'cause
I'm so good and so cocky and all of that.
But, like when it really comes down to it, even though it
manifests differently, the their sort of baseline important
things are are all the same. I really love Phoebe.
She's I I relate to her a lot. I just wish I had her
confidence. Yes, that would be nice, right?
Yeah. No, Phoebe, I I also have ADHD
and Phoebe's probably like the most like me of of sorry, my dog
is like scratching herself and shaking her collar.
So if you hear any jingles, that's that's just Nora.
But yeah, Phoebe's probably the most like me, but I also don't
have that confidence. It more, it more manifested in
like when I was writing the parts of Phoebe where she hates
herself, I was like, oh, actually this is not very fun to
be writing down. Yeah, making a character that
similar to me was like, I actually hate writing this.
Thank you. I totally.
I really loved like first reading like the her internal
thoughts because I'm, I swear I have undiagnosed ADHD and like
everything that she goes through, I'm like well that's
relatable. Yeah, it's the same 'cause I had
undiagnosed ADHD until I was 35 and then and everything made a
lot more sense. And that's why I connected with
Phoebe a lot, 'cause I was like, Oh yeah, girl, I get you.
Well, and The thing is, is that even when like I was, I was
diagnosed in college and you know, that was obviously, I mean
I was going to say much younger than Phoebe.
That's a lie. She's like 22.
But but it's not. It's not sort of, I don't think
of that as a late in life diagnosis.
I was still in school, all of that stuff.
And still, there's just so much that you've been taught is like,
bad or wrong about the way that your brain works.
That even when and even now, even I've been diagnosed for
more than half my life and I'm still like, oh, that's hard to
to get through. That's hard to accept.
That's hard. I said more than half my life, I
can't. I'm gay.
I can't do math. Almost half my life, that whole
time I was like, wait a second, weren't those numbers correct?
And they were not. But anyway, I just mean that it
Phoebe, the stuff that Phoebe goes through is harder for her
because she's undiagnosed. But even when she when you're
diagnosed, you still have that you know her, her shame around
like time management and you know being able to keep a job
and had the idea of like that working in an office job just
sounds like horrendous and just various things that she goes
through. I think our present, whether you
know whether she was diagnosed earlier on or not.
Yeah, like keeping up with society's expectations or what
you think society's expectations of you are.
Now that came across really well and that's one of the things
that I really thought, well, this isn't just a nice,
awesomely written romance slash soccer, ode to women's soccer.
This is like an important, it's like important things underneath
that come out like that and you know all the things with grace
and and so thanks for doing that.
Thank you. Yeah.
I, you know, I, I think with my first book with something to
talk about, I really did try to be like, I'm going to put
important things in this. This is going to be about like
homophobia and misogyny and racism in Hollywood.
And now I'm. I'm just sorry, my dog.
Hi, Nora. Oh, you did it.
What's up, Nora? Come down, you.
Steered them away. Well, so if you tell her no,
then she's like, no, like there really is somebody out here I
can keep barking so that you can tell.
Whereas if you're like, oh, good job, you got them.
She's like, I did my. Job, Yeah, affirmation.
Yeah, so she stops. She stops more quickly if you
tell her yes. Then if you're trying to be like
shut your damn mouth which is what I like as well no.
But anyway I was saying that you know with my first book I I did
really try those like wanted to be get important themes in here
and I'm leaning much more to I just wanna I just wanna have fun
like I'm just having a good time and I think obviously yes you're
right. Like, there are, there are,
there's, you know, Phoebe H Phoebe's ADHD.
Grace has autism, which is like mentioned like as a maybe one
time because I wrote too long of a book and ran out of words for
what her sort of journey was gonna be like in relation to
that. But, like, there are those, of
course, those underlying important things.
But that's less my focus now, That's more that's more a side
effect of wanting my characters to be real.
You know, 'cause this is, you know, this is real life.
These are what these real people would be like rather than like
the, the, the initial focus, the initial focus is like, I want
hot ladies to kiss. So I'm gonna make that happen.
Oh, we're so glad you did. So yeah, these two characters
are so real. But then, like, so they have
different thoughts from each other, and the novel switches
points of view between the two protagonists, Grace and Phoebe.
Why did you decide to tell the story from both point of views?
All of my books have have been dual point of view.
Not all of them have started that mistakes were made, only
started single point of view. But for this one it really the
real kernel of what? Like what I the idea that I came
up with that I was writing toward had to be dual point of
view. If anyone hasn't read it yet,
just like stop listening to this podcast for a little bit 'cause
I'm gonna spoil that part of it. But the whole my my idea of I
wanted to take the the miscommunication trope where
people are like, oh, if they just had one conversation like
this would be solved. And I wanted to be like, no,
you're wrong. And so I wanted Grace and Phoebe
to actually have many conversations and still
miscommunicate about it. So I don't know what chapters it
is, but the chapter that ends with Grace being like, I don't
really understand why Phoebe's telling me she isn't sleeping
with anyone else. I don't really know why she's
like, so happy we got over this fight.
And then the next chapter beginning with Phoebe being like
Grace is my girlfriend. Grace, like has no idea is
what's happening. That was like that was what I
really wanted to write and obviously that had to be dual
point of view to to to have that and like I I know some people do
hate the miscommunication trope. I knew some people would like
not like the book for that reason and I'm like, but it's
funny so I like it And that's yeah, that was that was like my
sort of that's what I that's what I was writing the book for.
As as I was drafting it toward the end one of my friends I was
having issues with something and one of my friends was like well
the easiest solution would be you just take out this they
think they're dating and they're not or whatever and just do it
this way. And I was like, I like, almost
like we were on a video call and I almost just like close to my
laptop to be like, absolutely not, 'cause I was like, I
understand that. And you're right.
And that would be the easiest solution.
And I'm absolutely not going to be doing that, cause like this
was very much the book I wanted to write with that, with that
miscommunication. I love it and it absolutely
worked. To piggyback off of Caitlin's
question with the dual point of views, I just wanted to say in
general, because I've had more than one of your books.
You, in this book too, did a phenomenal job of making the
point of view voices very distinct, which adds to it.
Like, for example, I love that Phoebe always has these just
uninhibited thoughts where she'll think things like I may
be stupid and horny, but and then you have Grace, who has
this inner monologue that reads very much like looking
respectfully kind of stuff. And as a reader, for me, that
give me gave me a very clear sense of like who the characters
are. So I'm curious if you're very
conscious of word choices and like phrasing when you're
drafting and creating those separate point of views.
For this book especially, yes, but no.
Yeah, when you do dual point of view in general, you have to,
you have to be intentional about that.
I'm actually currently having a tough time with with the book
I'm working on now because it is people who have been best
friends for the majority of their life.
So I'm like, I am intentionally making things somewhat the same,
like making their thought processes the same.
And I'm trying to do it in a way where people go, oh, I see the
ways they're similar because, like, they're thinking these
same thoughts because they're like they've grown up together.
They're without them being like, wow, Meryl's just repeat.
They're just repeating the same thing that the other person
said. I'm like, yes, I I meant to do
that. But for, yeah, for Grace and
Phoebe, it was, it was easier than it has been for other books
because they are so dramatically different.
And honestly, Phoebe, a lot. Phoebe was very fun to write
because I felt way less pressure to, you know, pick the right
words and get it right. And and if I couldn't come up
with a word, I could literally write Phoebe's thought process
being like or whatever that's called, like, 'cause that's how
it would work for her. And so it was, it was easier and
there was, I think, less editing of of I was able to just like
word vomit. And that worked for Phoebe in a
way that it obviously would not have worked for Grace.
So that was that was fun and it was really fun to to do their
their distinct point of views and and looking at the exact
same situation or the exact same conversation and just the
dramatically different perspectives they would have.
Absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely.
And like, yeah, I I imagined that when there was reading.
I'm like, Phoebe must be so fun to write, 'cause he's just like,
it's just random, chaotic thoughts constantly.
And I do, I do notice that when Phoebe would just be like or
whatever and I'm like. Yeah, it's literally holistic.
Like, whatever. It was literally me being like I
can't come up with this word. So.
I love it. I love it.
So, on the same lines of Theora's wonderful stellar
phrasing that she picked out of the book, the soccer scenes are
so well written. What research did you do in
order to capture these vivid moments?
So I have been I played soccer when I was a kid.
My brother played soccer through high school and I went to, I
went to like every single game home and away.
Can you can you stop? Sorry, my animals are just being
annoying. Yeah, I went to every single
game home and away that my brother had in high school.
I just, I've always liked soccer.
And then as I said, you know, I I got into the women's national
team and the NWSL during the World Cup in 2015 and just had
had knowledge of it. And then I also I asked people
who I asked people who knew I I my my my way to research is to
find someone who knows more than me and ask them a bunch of
questions and then like. Barely use any of that in the
actual book is usually what happens.
So yeah, I talked to, I talked to a mutual on Twitter who's a
women's soccer reporter. I talked to friends who are
fans. I talked to friends who know
somebody who plays in the league.
Like, you know, I just, I asked as many questions as I could.
And then I remember during, I think it was during copy edits,
I was trying so hard to learn yellow card accrual for anybody
who doesn't know soccer. Lots of times in tournaments, if
you get multiple yellow cards, even if they're in different
games, you still like can't play the next game sort of thing.
And I was also trying to figure out, OK, if you got 2 yellow
cards in one game, I know that means it's a red card and you're
sent off, but does that still mean you can't play the next
game? And I I was stressing myself out
about it so much. I was like, nothing was really
that clear online. I texted my brother.
I was just like and I was like, literally, no one cares.
Like this is fiction, first of all.
Second of all not everyone who walked who reads this is going
to know enough about soccer to know.
Even if they know soccer, they still might not know.
Like also it's I think like one line mention of like oh the week
went by where she doesn't play like it.
It just it didn't matter. But I got, I just got so
stressed about getting things right and I did that also about
like the the US Women's National team camps.
Like when they when they go into January camp.
At first I was like, OK, well where would they go?
Would they be, would they be at A at a college?
Would they be at a professional place?
Would they stay in a hotel? If they were at a college would
they stay in dorms? Like, and I got like all into
this and then I was just like, it doesn't matter.
No one will know. And if they know they won't,
they won't care anyway. Like, so a lot of the soccer
stuff is stuff because I know it.
And then some of the soccer stuff is like, well, maybe it's
like this. I don't know.
It doesn't really matter. This is a fiction book.
Creative license. That's what it's like in you in
this world. That's the that's always the
always. What I would say is like, well,
that's what it's like in the world of this book.
So deal with it. Yeah, so there's a theme of
friends and community rallying around and supporting one
another in the form of the USW and TS cast of characters.
How did that take shape in your mind and what made you write the
team the way you did? I think some of it is just from,
you know, watching women's soccer and watching the women's
national team in general and like how seeing, seeing
friendships that do exist in real life between players,
whether they're on the same professional team or not.
And I put together a a spreadsheet.
I actually the the dumb thing that I did for Cleat Q was I
made-up the entire league instead of just being like, oh,
we'll just, well, like the NWSL is the real league in America.
I could have just given them a New Orleans team and been like,
OK, let's go. For some reason I decided I'm
going to make up a whole league. I think I didn't want to like
get in trouble if you know, I didn't want somebody to not not
be allowed to say something or whatever.
And so I I picked only teams that at least at the time didn't
have NWSL teams but were like big enough that I felt like they
could. I think the majority of the
teams are never mentioned in the book, but they I know I have a
whole bunch of them. I have their mascots and so
yeah, so, so the cast of characters, when you're dealing
with a soccer team, you automatically have a have a
large cast of characters. And then because this is dealing
both with like the in the professional level and also the
women's national team, it's really like multiple soccer
teams. And so it was fun and also
somewhat difficult. I ended up, you know, sort of
culling it down a little bit where I have, I have a character
who I don't think is ever mentioned in the book, who was
who was mentioned who I I feel like I know fairly well.
But she only had like one line in the book and it was just like
there's no reason to throw another name at readers.
We'll just, you know, make this somebody who I had mentioned
earlier instead. So I think I have a a bigger
world even than than ends up on the page in the book because
it's again, it's important for to me to like be have my
characters be realistic. And so I do think that that's
how that's how it would work. And they would have, you know,
the people they get along with, the people they don't get along
with, the people they're best friends with, even if they're
not on the same team, you know, all of that.
And As for just like community in general, I think that's
always, that's sort of always going to be important in in my
books because it's important to me to have those people who are
sort of there by your side. And especially also because I
write what I call idiots to lovers.
You need, you need somebody there to be like actually you're
very stupid and you are both obviously in love with each
other. So I always I always have to
have have to have one of those characters as well.
Yeah, I I think that I like that you mentioned the realism
because I feel like a lot of, a lot of the book read like I used
to play soccer and I was also super into like women's soccer.
Probably not the same time you were like, I guess it got more
visible at the time. But regardless, like a lot of
the aspects of it when it comes to the community and like sports
in general, feel very realistic for me.
One scene that really struck with me was the moment when
Phoebe first visits the New Orleans stadium and she's just
in awe of this facility and is like mentally comparing it to
what she's used to at college and and like the lack of really
facilities that they had. And so I'm curious if this was
an intentional commentary on like the wage disparities that
exist in sports and particularly the lack of like compensation
when it comes to like female athletes in particular, since
that's where this is centered on.
Yeah, you know, I did. I did a couple of, you know,
sort of have a couple of times where where I really called
things out like that, the the wage disparity.
And I mean Phoebe, you know, Phoebe the whole time has a
second job because she recognizes that she can't, you
know, she can't necessarily get by just on her.
And that's also a reason why she wants to make the national team
specifically, not just play professionally, because even
just playing professionally is not necessarily going to be
enough money to sustain you for the entire year.
And so, yeah, that I was definitely very aware of that as
I was writing the book as a whole.
In terms of like Phoebe's first time to the stadium, you know,
she came from a a small school in the middle of nowhere.
So, like, that was really sort of sort of the focus for her.
Was she, you know, she wasn't a NCAA champion sort of.
You know, it wasn't a huge school that she didn't get.
She didn't get. Did she get a scholarship to go
to college? Don't remember.
I was going to say she didn't get a scholarship, but I'm like,
I actually don't know if that's true.
But just you know it wasn't She's not she isn't from
anywhere like this. And so that was that was really
that, at least for that point, was the huge differences to her
was because she was used to, you know, even a good women's soccer
team, especially in college, can often be like, OK, well, we had
30 people show up today. So yeah, she, she comes from a a
school and a team that just she plays, 'cause she loves it.
She's not, she's not getting a ton of accolades.
She's not getting there aren't, you know, a ton of fans all of
that. And so to come to a place where
they get 5000 fans a game and it's just the facilities are
well maintained and all of that is just such a huge change for
for our little Phoebe well. Little Phoebe going to the big
city, yeah. So Grace and Phoebe both have
loving families that sacrificed in order for them to succeed as
professional athletes. Why was it important to shine
the spotlight on these unsung heroes?
Wow, that's a good question. Why was it important, you know,
for Grace Grace's family, sort of like split up, like just
because they had to, because of her soccer, because she needed
to go train. I have fully forgotten if she's
from New York and trained in California or from California
and trained in New York. The first one.
OK. Regardless, she and her and her
mom went across the country so that she could train while she
was young because, you know, she started with the national team
at 16. So obviously she was, she was
training at a very high level at a very young age.
And you know, that I think to her family is more the way the
way that I see it and the way that my family sort of operates
tend tends to be, well, you, you just do that for your family.
So like, I don't think the rest of her family is like, oh, wow,
well, she better keep playing. She better be good, 'cause we
did all of this for her. It's just like, Oh yeah, that's
what the family needed to do. And that's what we did.
And everyone's doing well. Like it's worked out for all of
us. Whereas Grace very much sees it
as like they have, they made this huge sacrifice for me and I
have to pay them back for that. And yeah, I don't.
I just don't think that her family would see it that way.
It's just sort of like, yeah, we want you to, we want you to do
what you want to do and we want you to succeed and we want you
to be happy. And we want to support you in
that. And whatever that means, we'll
do it. Which is, I recognize, less
common than we would like it to be in in the world in general.
But yeah, that was just Grace's family was just they they they
don't, they don't think of themselves, I think as anything
special in terms of you know, unsung heroes.
They would, they would I think laugh at that idea but but also,
you know, they sort of are because not everybody would do
that for for anyone, much less for like a 10 year old kid.
And Phoebe's family just, you know, Phoebe's family's close
because they they have all lived in the same place for a long
time. They I mean I I guess I don't
really know. I haven't thought of it so much
about Phoebe's family as much but you know her her brother is
trans and so that and that was in like middle of nowhere
Indiana. So like it was.
I think that also brought them brought them close together.
They sort of, Phoebe definitely feels very protective and yeah,
and they all just they all just sort of are still in the same
small town that's Nora and so yeah, so they just all they
they're still close because of that.
Right. Well, Speaking of Teddy, who is
a huge part of Phoebe's life, obviously, and her biggest
cheerleader, the only thing that I was sad about in the book was
not getting more Teddy. Yeah, and.
I love Teddy. More of Teddy's back story.
So can you tell us what it was like for him growing up and did
you how a lot of ideas about who he was as a person?
I think that for for thinking of like Teddy as a character, I I
didn't put, I didn't like sort of sketch out his whole
background. You know, I didn't sketch out,
OK, here's when he decided to here's when he figured it out.
Here's when he came out or or anything like that.
Sort of, I mean kind of in the same way that I, I didn't
necessarily sketch out Alice's history either which is Phoebe's
sister. You know I figured out their
their birth order and sort of how how they interact and all of
that. But I I do absolutely adore
Teddy. But also I I sort of still
wanted to treat him. I mean he's he's a minor
character like you know, I didn't, I didn't you know, he's
he's her her brother he's trans. But I didn't want to put
anything. I didn't sort of want to make
that a a big deal. And I and I like it's a big deal
because it's a big deal in any every trans person's life.
But it's also just like we just exist like you know he's her
brother like he would be in any you know in any other situation.
And so yeah so I don't I don't really have like his background
all all sketched out. I just have him looking very
much like Phoebe except being very short and like having
perpetual bed head and but I think he has a lot of Phoebe's.
You know, Phoebe is is is confident to the point of cocky.
And I don't know that that Teddy has that cockiness necessarily,
but he has just the the like quiet or quiet confidence of
just like I I know who I am and I know where I'm supposed to be
and I'm do and you know, I'm, I'm doing it.
Good for Teddy. Yeah, go Teddy.
All right, so in the. Beginning of the story, and
probably throughout most of the story, Grace really lacks social
skills, like like normal social skills for people.
We'll put it that way. To her, socializing is more like
performing where like there's rules of engagement and Grace is
just there to follow the rules. And when it doesn't fit the
rules, she doesn't know what to do, which is what makes Phoebe
fun because she just doesn't follow those rules and Grace
doesn't know what to do. So I'm wondering, with Grace's
like kind of like social anxiety in a way, and like struggle to
navigate these situations, is that a product of her
personality? Or was it like a unintended
consequence of being of childhood stardom, like being a
professional athlete at such a young age?
I think I think probably a little bit of both.
You know it is it is definitely also like it's part of her
autism and that she the the sort of looking at patterns and and
rules and following those are is very helpful to her and that's
how she if she steps into an unfamiliar situation if at least
she has you know like knows the social rules of it it it's less
stressful. But I do think that sort of the
being a a child star or even just a celebrity in general I
think regardless of sort of necessarily at what age it was
that she did get famous. I think that that, that that
would come into play. There is that she, you know, she
felt that she had to be a certain way that she was a role
model, you know that there were, you know, she she needs those
rules to help her navigate, you know, uncomfortable situations,
social situations in general, the world in general.
But also she is sort of very focused on those rules and
doesn't recognize that they're all made-up and you actually can
do whatever you whatever you want.
And so that that is something that that, I mean that's sort of
her. Her experience with Phoebe is
recognizing like, oh, maybe I don't need to.
Maybe I've maybe some of these rules aren't what like society
even put on me or aren't what my family, you know, a lot of her
stuff with her family is she thinks very much like I need to
pay my family back for this. And her family's like, no, you
whatever. No, you don't.
And so a lot of the stuff is, is pressure that she's putting on
herself. And a lot of the book is her is
her coming to realize that as opposed to that, it's pressure
that she has to deal with because of the situation.
You know, because she's a a soccer star.
She has to be a role model. She has to because she's the
veteran. She has to be the captain
because you know, all of those sorts of things that, yeah, that
that come from from her her fame and her success and also just
her understanding of the world. I also love that she refers to
Phoebe as exposure therapy. Like I'm just like, oh God.
It's really bad 'cause it's. Different for her to navigate,
yeah. I was like.
Serious though, 'cause sorry, sorry.
No, just that she's like, you know, I don't know how to deal
with this person, but if I'm around them more than I'll
figure it out, as opposed to like recognizing like, oh,
actually, maybe you just want to be around that person more, but
this is, you admit not admitting that to yourself.
Yeah, I was just curious about Grace because like, yeah, she
definitely has the personality type that is somebody who's
introverted and would be more focused on that kind of stuff.
But then to like at a young age be put in this position where
like she couldn't have social media and like almost like she's
closed off. Like it would inhibit her
ability to grow, like Phoebe who didn't have that, for example.
So I I just found that to be a fun dynamic, like 10 years into
the future with the two of them. Yeah, she's she's definitely an
introvert and would would be an introvert if she never got
famous. But then she also has, you know,
it's mentioned like that there are are like L chat boards on
the Internet where people are speculating about her sexuality
and things like that. And as somebody who is
introverted and private in general, then to to have that
from the outside, like pressing in, it definitely makes her more
more, even more reserved. I mean, she's lucky that that
the TikTok thing wasn't going on and someone didn't have, like,
evidence on their wall trying to figure out the sexuality.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that they did.
Let's be real. Yeah, I when Phoebe's like, I've
been on those chests, yeah, she's.
Like, come on, there's one of. Those string boards.
Yeah, she's like, I'm a lesbian who like, likes soccer and has
the Internet, obviously. Like, I have tracked that.
You're into women. Like, come on.
It's like, duh, come on, Grace. No.
But So what are Grace and Phoebe up to now?
And do you think you'll ever revisit them?
I would. I think I would love to.
I'm trying to think like what like technically in in the book
world we would we would have liked them to have won the World
Cup. But like if we're in real life
then that didn't happen. So like I guess wait, are the
are the Olympics next this year, this year now because we're into
January. So I guess that's what they're
is is training for the Olympics would be what they're up to now.
Yeah, actually, I was really mad at the women's national team,
not just because I was a fan and I wanted them to win, but I was
like, my book would have sold more copies if you had one out.
And I was very upset about it. I feel bad.
But yeah, I was just like your. Feelings are valid.
Like you helped me out here. I mean also like I I wanted you
to win, but also couldn't you have helped me out here.
So yeah, they would be they would be training for the
Olympics. They, I think that Phoebe, I
would like to think that Phoebe would have played well enough in
the World Cup that she's no longer like, oh God, I have to
earn my spot on this team. And it's more like, OK, like
this is, this is my spot on the team.
Grace is 400,000 times happier because she's not talking to the
media. She's not worrying about a she's
just not. She doesn't have to lead.
She doesn't have to do anything. Like it was important to me
again. If you haven't read the book,
I'm about to spoil the epilogue. I feel like you guys, just when
you cut things, you just need to be like have somebody come in
and be like if you haven't read, start listening again at 42
minutes and 50 seconds and then we can do it.
But it was really important to me in the epilogue that, you
know, Grace steps up before the 1st, the first game of the World
Cup to give sort of the pregame like Woohoo.
And she hasn't done that before since she stepped back from like
her leadership position. And that was important to me
because it was grace upon letting herself not do the
things that stressed her out. She she, they stressed her out
less when she actually did do them.
You know, like she chose to, I'm going to be the one to say
something here. And like, she wanted to do that.
And so she did, as opposed to previously in the book.
It would have been, well, like, I'm the veteran.
I've been here before. I should say something, you
know, it would have been a lot of pressure on herself to do it.
And it was important to me to show that she still, you know,
she still helps people out of practice and she still, you
know, imparts her, her wisdom to younger teammates especially.
But because she's not, she doesn't feel like she has to.
That has become so much easier for her, and it has been a real,
like weight lifted from her shoulder.
So yeah, she's she's super happy, much happier than she's
been masking way less. I feel like it's probably too
fast for her and Phoebe to live together, but also probably they
live together like they're lesbians are.
They not married yet. Well, also like Grace is, Grace
would never. Grace is like doesn't want to go
over to Phoebe's apartment. Like that's team given housing.
Absolutely not. And Grace, you know, bought her
house and chose it specifically. Oh, here's a Kitty.
Yeah. You want to say hi?
This is Jake. Oh my gosh.
It looks like Atticus. Hey.
Jinxy. OK, go Jinxy.
Goodbye and yeah, it doesn't want to go over it like picked
her house, specifically bought her house.
It has a it has a raised screened in porch that you can
be on and nobody on the street can see you.
Like Grace really likes her space and so yeah, I I wouldn't
be surprised if as the next season starts she's like just
why are you in that house, those house, that house.
And I'm never coming to that apartment.
Just come, just move in, basically.
Actually, probably it wouldn't. Probably nobody would ask.
It would just happen like I'm. Just gonna say slowly.
Things would just start getting moved in.
Yeah. Like, oh, I need that.
Yeah, I need that thing. And then one day, like I didn't
up my lease. Yes, that's exactly.
That's exactly what I was saying is Phoebe would have a breakdown
about bringing up should I re up my lease, which is not even her
at least, but like, you know, the the soccer teams.
She would have like a silent breakdown of that to herself and
finally, like bring it up to Grace.
And Grace would just be like, oh, I mean, you're here all the
time. Why not?
I think he'd be like, yeah, cool, normal.
She'd be like, oh, I thought you already going up here.
Grace. Grace is probably like, when did
you last look at your apartment and think it's like month and
month ago? Yep, that makes sense.
That's so them. And I would like not always love
to revisit them. I I'm not opposed to I told my
agent I was like, well, I don't have any new I don't have any,
like ideas for more soccer books.
But like, I'd I'd be happy to come up like an idea once I get
it. I'm I become a like, if it's a
good idea that I like, I'm immediately obsessed with it.
And so yeah, I think I told her I don't have any ideas but like,
I could come up with some. And I told my friends that I
said that. And one of them was like, well
what about this reporter who you have in cleat cute like she
needs a girlfriend. And I was immediately like, well
now I have an idea we need to do this.
So it's not they're not on they're not sort of on the
horizon. But they're not.
It's It's never say never. I mean, you have a whole world
playing. Exactly.
It's like I have all these teams I I need to actually do
something with you. Built the world.
We need to go to each team. Did you build?
A team in Philadelphia. Yes, the Philadelphia Bells,
that's who. Who?
Medea and H play for the Philadelphia Bells.
Oh, that's right. That's right.
That's. Right.
That's right. That's right.
Yes. Let's go there.
I, I I'm in Philly. Can you?
Tell Well, I think that we need it.
We would the so the the journalist who I wrote which if
you are if you do follow women's soccer and specifically women's
soccer journalist it was. I took two journalists names and
put them together for Meg Linahan I think is her name and
Steph Yang and Steph Yang's Twitter handle is Thrace and
that's where Megan Thrace came from and she loves the Boston
team and in in cute they're the Boston rucks and she loves the
Boston team. So I think we would probably if
we were going to do that story we would probably be in Boston
and she would like ball for something on the on the rucks
team but Philadelphia will still it's you never know never say
never maybe maybe. They'll maybe they'll get there,
you know. Just maybe the championship, the
championship could be held in Philadelphia.
Like we we got options. Ideas.
All right. Speaking of other books that
you've actually written, so I've also read Mistakes Were Made,
which is honestly one of my favorite books ever.
I literally just reread it recently.
Like, I love that book so much. So much.
I know that you brought it up earlier, but I noticed in both
novels you you really love the Idiots to Lovers trope for the
protagonist. And it's my favorite trope to
read. And I'm curious if it's your
favorite to write because it just shows up more than once.
Yeah, it's also in my first book for like, it's in my first book,
maybe even more than oh, that's that's not true in in a very
different way. Yeah, I idiot to lovers.
It just tends to be how I go for it, just because I think it's
really easy. It's really easy for people to
not believe good things about themselves and not believe that
they're worth it or not believe that, oh, this person could
never have these feelings for me or things like that.
And so I think it's really easy to sort of have that mutual
pining. Oh, you're both, like, everyone
else knows, you're both clearly in love with each other.
Like, get it together. And that's just really, I just
really like writing that. And I think it's also been like,
my experience, you know, like my my wife and I, when we first
started talking, she sent me a birthday present.
Like, we talked, We were talking, We met online and she
sent me a birthday present. And I was just like, maybe she's
just a really nice person. Like, I don't, I don't know,
like this like person I started talking to like a month, maybe
two ago, like sent me a really nice birthday present.
I'm just like, maybe she's just really nice.
Like, you never know, she, she is very nice.
She just, it turns out also like me.
So yeah, I think I just have a have a history of just not,
neither not seeing it or not believing it or, you know,
thinking this could never be real sort of thing that I I tend
to put in a lot of my characters relatable.
Yeah, I love it so much though. It's so fun.
Especially when you write the dual PO VS because they're both
oblivious for different reasons and it's so fun.
I like my my favorite idiots to lover story is that I have a
friend who a girl texted them. You can do whatever you want to
me. And my friend was completely
convinced this was not sexual, was like, no like and not even
like. Jokingly was literally just like
and I I just, I can't, I can't imagine being that dumb.
But also if I was in that situation, I would absolutely be
that dumb. You know, like, so that's that's
sort of what I try to try to get to with my character.
Is this like, looking from the outside you're like, why are you
so stupid? But also, you know that if you
were in that situation, you'd you'd probably be that dumb too.
Yeah 'cause you wanna spend the whole time wanting to, like,
just push their faces together. No kidding.
Yeah, if you. Can't.
So if if for anyone who hasn't read something to talk about,
which is my first book, it is an entirely different heat level
than mistakes were made in cleat cute, please be prepared.
It is the slowest burn. Like people talk about slow
burns and they're like, yeah, they don't kiss till 50% and I'm
like, I think it's like 87% on your Kindle.
Is is the first kiss. I think yeah, it is just it is
very slow and dragged out and like there's nothing wrong with
that, just as there's nothing wrong with, you know, mistakes
were made. That opens with the sex scene.
But I just, I always want to prepare people that it's a fully
different experience. If you're going to go for that
one, then then if you're going to go for one of the later ones.
But that one's my That one's my favorite.
Well. Cleat cute.
It holds a special. I think Cleat Cute's my
favorite, but I don't know if that's just like recency bias,
you know, like it's the most recent book that I fully
finished. You know, I'm, I'm working on
something now, but it's not complete.
And I don't know if it's that or if it's just that.
I it's very special to me because I'm obsessed with both
Phoebe and Grace. But yeah, something to talk
about will always hold a special place in my heart.
Joe Jones is the love of my life, so.
Yes, completely. Have you thought?
About if Clete Cute was turned into a movie, who you want to
cast? So I often don't do.
I don't. I don't try to.
I try not to like talk about who I would cast for things because
I'm like, oh, I want, like readers to be able to, to figure
out their own. I don't.
I feel like somebody said somebody someone for Phoebe, but
now I can't remember. There was there was a a model on
Pinterest who I found who I was like that is, that's Phoebe.
Like that big smile and red hair and freckly, freckly, freckly
face. That's Phoebe.
But I don't, I don't have celebrities specifically in
mind, especially because they're not, none of them are buff
enough. Like none of no celebrity as a
soccer player. So it's hard to be like, Oh
yeah, put this one in for the cover.
I got to the cover of the book. I got to, you know provide ideas
and inspiration and stuff like that.
And I think I put and I put like body type wise more Sidney for
Grace. I put body type wise more Sidney
LaRue. And then I gave like Alex
Morgan, Tobin Heath Allie Krieger, like some combination
of this. And the first, the first
iteration of the cover, she looked almost exactly like
Sophia Smith like and she had the same like bubble like sort
of bubble braider in her hair. And I was like, you can't do
that. Not just because that's not what
she looks like, but because people were people who know that
women's national team will literally think that this is a
book about. So, like, that looks exactly
like Sophia Smith. So did they.
Look at a picture of Sophia Smith.
I don't know, maybe I that's not what I provided, but like
possibly. It's like Sophia Smith fiction.
Yeah, that's really what it looked like.
Yeah, it it was, it was kind of wild, like same hair, just the
same hairstyle and everything. I was like, how how did you do
this with Outlook if you weren't looking at a picture of her?
But yeah, I don't have, As for like celebrity like actors, I
don't really have any. I mean, if it got made into, you
know, a movie or or ATV show or whatever, it's like do what?
Do what? You make them play soccer, make
them be lesbians. And other than that, just give
me some money. That would be great.
I mean obviously, yes, I want it to be good.
I I had I would have ideas for it.
You know I but in the end it's like at this point it's not it's
not mine. Yeah.
And I think that I think also some of that comes from you know
I came up I came up through fan fiction like that's that's where
I sort of cut my teeth writing. And so I don't necessarily have
a obviously as a writer there are some things I'm like this,
you know, this happens this way, like this is what goes on.
But I don't, I don't have a strong hold on, OK, this is
Canon. This is exactly what happens.
And nothing else happens. And this is the story I'm like,
yeah, they're in, they're play soccer and they're lesbians and
go with it because I love the idea of of seeing what other
people, what other people get from the story, what other
people want the story to be, what other people, the the parts
of the story that aren't on the page that other people see.
So yeah, I don't have, I don't have any anyone specifically in
mind that I'm like, oh, I would love for this person to, to play
this character. Awesome.
That's totally fair. My wife really wants it to be
made into something and for Aly Krieger to have a cameo so that
then I can get my wife to set on that day.
But I I wrote, you know, I wrote the book.
Obviously. Like, books get finished long
before they're published anyway. But there's a, you know, there's
a mention, not by name, but there's a mention of Allie
Krieger and Ashlyn Harris. And then now they're getting
divorced. And I was just like, I do.
I go to my publisher and like ask to change this.
Like what do I do? I was very, very stressed about,
but but yeah, no, my my wife really, really would like me to
somehow get her to meet Ellie Krieger.
I mean same living in the. World manifesting.
Yeah, Ellie Krieger, if you see this.
Yeah. Ellie Krieger, you're watching.
I'm free. I'm free every night.
I don't have children, but I can.
I can figure it out. I can be a step parent.
It's fine. Oh my God, that's amazing.
Oh, Meryl, thank you so much for talking with us today.
We really appreciate it and love getting to know you and clete
cute better. Before we sign off, do you have
any final words for the listeners at home?
Well, first of all for for y'all, thank you for having me.
This has been really fun. I've really enjoyed it.
For listeners at home, I don't know.
I feel like I should do like, you know, follow me on various
things. I think I'm just Merrill Wilsner
everywhere so you can find find me there.
We did want to shout out my I'm wearing cleat cute merchandise.
The coloring on this is actually off from what you would actually
get because I changed up the color.
But this is a a cleat cute New Orleans crew shield.
It has Matthews and the number 17 on the back.
But yeah, so I have a threadless shop you can get cleat cute
merch. You can get there's actually
idiots to lovers merch. There's some mistakes were made
stuff in there too. You can get a snapback that
Phoebe wears in the in the book that says gal pals on it.
So so yeah check out my my merch store on thread list.
Follow me if you feel like it. Read my other books all that
stuff. Thank you for for reading.
I'm just rambling at this point now.
So, so yes, those are all of my words to listeners.
Thank you to everyone at home listening.
Make sure to check out Creek Cute and follow Meryl on social
media, social media and check out that Verge store 'cause we
definitely will be right after this.
So until next time, Hi Dre for Lesbian Jesus.
I gave it up all over the place. Bye.
And with that, we've been big gay energy.
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