Hello and welcome to Big Gay energy.
I'm Bree. I'm Fiora and I'm Caitlin come
along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer
media representation matters. And we're here to talk about it.
Welcome back, friends. Today, we have a very special
guest joining us, please welcome the incredibly talented,
casting, director, Steven Tyler O'Connor.
We are so excited to talk to you today.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, so our first question has
to be. What do you do for your job?
And how did you get started? What do I do?
I destroy people's dreams. No, I took so many actors feel
that way about casting and I'm always like, no, I want you to
be it. Like, if you are it, that makes
my job so much easier. I went to an acting school in
New York and then graduated in 08.
And then the economy collapsed in 08, I Kaitlyn already I'm so
sorry it's a but by now so we just keep it in horse knows why
we do an acting school and need an internship in order to
graduate. I got an internship in casting,
at CBS Paramount, in New York and then the, I graduated the
economy was in freefall and one of my mentors katharina Eggman
heard that Jennifer McNamara's office at NBC, was looking for
an assistant and she recommended me for the job.
So we sort of I fell into it as sometimes people in casting do
and I was like, okay, well I'm getting paid 20 bucks an hour,
and that's better than the no money.
I've been making because the restaurant that I worked at had
closed. So I sort of jumped into it and
I worked in Jen's office for four years for pilot seasons.
And I was like, oh, I'm good at this.
And so when I moved to Los Angeles, I was like, oh I'm
gonna be an actor again. But everybody, I knew in casting
noomi as like a casting assistant.
So then I was like, Okay wife. Why am I dislike?
This industry is already so hard.
Why am I wanting to you know, row Upstream even more.
So I was just like let me let's Embrace beating casting and so
then I did that I was in a casting assistant on production
and then work my way up from there and a lot of like what we
do like on a TV show, I do a lot of TV.
So that's the the cycle of a TV show is a little bit easier, you
get a script, you read it, you identify, you know, No.
Are there characters in it that are guest stars or co-stars that
we've previously established that, we need to make sure that
they're available and then who are the new characters and then
you write up the character description in the breakdown.
And you, if you feel like you have a good handle on the show,
then you don't necessarily have to talk to your showrunner about
it. But if it's a new show or if
there's something specific, you want your show runner to be
like, are you looking for anything specific for these
characters? You have a creative conversation
about what they want, and then we put out a breakdown, we get
pitches from Agents and managers.
And submissions and we go through and we mark up the
sides, we select people to tape and then they tape we watch
those tapes, we usually if it's a guest are echostar but usually
won't have callbacks it's you because will usually have enough
people who who get it just from the auditions.
We send that to our show runner, they make decisions and it goes
to the studio and the network for approval and then we hire
people. It is a lot of proving.
Yeah. Yes.
But it mean that's quite a process and a lot of steps, but
that's really cool. People, never really get to know
what casting is like, and how you guys your jobs.
I think it's really cool for people to, you know, kind of get
an insight into that. But our next question is what's
been your favorite? Project to cast.
Absolutely. Yes.
I think I have a couple. I think the one that's been like
the most special for me is a Disney Channel show that I
worked on actually called and emac.
It was Disney's first Asian LED family show.
It was their first show with an out gay series regular character
who comes out and says that he's gay.
It's a very special. It's also the first show that I
had been on from Pilot through finale.
So I was there during the entire process.
And then I worked on the fourth season of Thirteen Reasons.
Why? For Netflix that was just really
cool because it was a show that I watched as a fan and then the
fact that I got to work on, it was really cool and really
exciting. And then, when I told people, I
work on 13 Reasons, it's like they had heard of it, kids had
heard of it and like, my cousins had heard of and emac.
But you talk to adults most adults haven't, you know,
they're not watching this on Disney Channel, That's not the
demo. So, I would say those two shows
are pretty, pretty special, and I guess I do.
Also, I have to say the healing powers of dude.
My Netflix show, that won me. My Emmy like that was also a
very special show. So I I have to put that on the
next as well. Well adult should be watching a
new Mac because I think it's amazing.
It's an amazing in the pilot. Yeah.
So it seems like you from what you've described as like your
favorite projects to work on. You've been involved in casting
and variety of different shows from like adults to Children.
Is there a different approach when you're casting adults
versus children for shows or movies?
I don't know if there's a different approach necessarily
but there's a level of, you know, just by this year, essence
of their an adult and therefore they're older and they've been
doing this longer. You know, if you're pursuing a
series regular It's an established or seasoned actor,
you have an entire, you know, body of work that you can point
to to be like, oh yes, they can do it with kids.
There's always that concern of, can they handle being a series
regular on a TV show? And the thing is there are kids
who get it and you just like, inherently know that they have
what it takes because on everybody can do it.
You know, it is it's long days on set and it's, you know, it's
a big thing. And in children's programming or
when you're casting a kid, there's just this this extra ra
consideration of like do we think they can handle it but
otherwise the approach is still the same.
It's like we want people who are authentic, who are real, who
makes the material sound organic and not like somebody reading
minds and that's the important thing and we were talking about
earlier like the process and I think there is such a long
process and it's a process that you don't need a lot of actors,
know, a lot of actors don't know how far along they go in the
process too, and I think that's hard, but On one hand.
I just don't think it's with the amount of people that we
audition, it's not possible for us to reach out to every single
person's reps afterwards, but it's not moving forward or it
went here. Like this, there's so many times
when okay, we sent them to producers in the producers chose
the other person. Will why I don't know?
My show runner, doesn't have to tell me why they're making the
decision that they're making. They just say, we want this
person and that's why go with. So, sometimes actors are realize
that they go to producers, or they go to the studio and the
studio. Rouge somebody else like actors
don't know. And every actor is different.
Some people don't want to know some people do and it's just
that's so much work on top of everything else that we're
doing. We don't have the infrastructure
to be delivering that specific kind of feedback to everybody on
every project. Have you seen like politics, get
involved? Kind of like casting.
Oh sure. I needed.
Yeah, I mean we're all human. So there's definitely.
Oh I've you know I've heard I've a friend of mine worked with
this person and they didn't have a good time or oh we're not fans
of them here at the studio or blah blah blah blah.
Like there's there's little things that could happen that
happen and when you get told that you try to navigate that
and there's also the own Mike, my own politics of like I'm a
huge. I said on the equity
entertainment committee for the casting society and like, I'm
all About representative and authentic, and inclusive
casting. And so, My Philosophy with a lot
of roles as why can't it be X? Why can't it be, you know,
someone who's limb different or why can't this be a woman or
what have you? And there's so for me, I'm
trying to infuse that into projects that I'm working on
two. So I have my own agenda of
Representative inclusive and authentic Cassidy that I bring
to the projects that I that I bring in.
And then sometimes you have showrunners or directors who
Joan. Want to participate in that, or
they don't respond to those those actors.
And there's only so much you can do in conversation, but at least
I'm trying. And so, there are those kind of
politics. And look, sometimes you you here
directors or producers, say some pretty awful things, and you're
just like, okay, wow, how do I take that and recalibrate and
still get the best actor for the role and still advocate for
people who are right to, or maybe being dismissed for one
reason or another. Yeah.
But it's speaking of inclusive, casting in your bio.
It says you Champion for inclusive casting for
underrepresented communities. How exactly do you go about
doing that? Is it just like trying to get
more representation in a cast? If they're not even in there?
Yeah. So there's it's a mix of like a
the projects we take on. So when the healing powers of
dude, the show is about a little boy who deals with social
anxiety. And so, we use visual effects to
sort of show what he's going through.
But one of his best friend's was a wheelchair user and the, the
showrunners I think originally in the script, it was fine a
bifida. But that was just a placeholder.
They were like we want to find somebody who uses a wheelchair,
and then we will cater the role to them.
So we did a huge International open, call, we found Sophie.
Kim out of nor Northern California.
She has Muscular Dystrophy and so, therefore, her character had
muscular dystrophy. That was a show that we took on
where we knew, we would want to cast authentically and that was
part of the DNA of the show already.
They were already looking for that, on my Apple show, best
foot forward. It's about a boy who is Linda
French? So we did a big International
open call and found. Logan out of New Jersey who is
very concerned about missing, missing baseball season Elite of
a show and he's like baseball. So we have certain projects or
shows that come to us that it's built into the DNA and the show
and then when it's not, I'm very big on.
I'm like well why can't it be this person?
I try to always have, you know, a wide variety of types and
communities into my selects link that I sent to my producers
because while they probably didn't Envision, this character
being limb different. If the if the actors really good
and they happen to be that they click, oh, I never thought it
could be that way. I think that's part of the
challenges. I think for the most part it's
not malicious. It's just were response in our
own privilege of whether it's or white privilege, if there's a
straight privilege. If there's gender privilege, or
if there's ability privilege and I think that it's not malicious,
sometimes people just they're not aware of it until I can
until I come in and say, well why can't this character be in a
wheelchair? What about this says that they
can't? And then that that opens up in
Sparks the Ation. So I very much come at it of,
why? Not.
And I think I think that came from a just my own experiences
with having a little brother who is blind, but when I worked at
NBC, Jen would bring in women for traditionally.
Male roles are observable in the script, she'd bring in women all
the time for him and she was like, why can't it be?
And I was like, oh, I love that. So that was one of the like one
of the lessons that I learned early on from Jen that I really
loved why can't it be and then let them Let the showrunner.
Let the director tell you why, it can't be his.
Sometimes, they may have a creative or an actual reason
behind it. And other times, they're just
like, oh I never even thought about that.
And and that's where I feel like I can play my small part to sort
of broaden their perception and open up their notion of what a
role could be. Has there ever been a time where
you fought for that kind of inclusive?
We like really had to like get in there and fight for it or
your. Yeah.
So I was I was working on 13 Reasons and there was a roll and
it came down to the two choices that it came down to was what I
felt like was a pretty standard choice of like an old white
straight guy. And then there was like, a
younger female role for this, like Chief of Police role and I
thought, and then, so we could it got down to it and the
decision was the old white guy and I was like, okay, let me
call up. Brian there's like, hey Brian, I
want to talk to you about this role.
This world had to Vines keep in mind.
So like it's a, there's a co-star and I was like, I was
just wondering why you chose The person that you did and he goes
why, and I was like, well I think the female role with
what's going on in the scene and it kind of delved into my pitch
about why it would be really interesting to have a woman play
that role and he's like, Steve I'm gonna let you know, I have
not thought about this role nearly as much as you have and I
was like, well, that's why you hired me, like it's my job to
really think about this. So then the next day, we had a
call and he's like I'm going to stick with my choice, but here's
why. And ultimately he was making a
conversation about the PRT and how they're trying to silence
the voices of the youth and also are like female the female lead
That season, so he was like that creatively works with what we're
trying to build in this moment and I was like, cool got it.
And so then we move forward but it was like He appreciated that
I had really thought in depth about it.
So while I didn't necessarily win that battle, it was a
conversation that was had and whenever I can, I will try to
advocate for for someone if I really think that they can do it
because it's like, if all things are equal, you know, let's just
go with, who could be? If if all things are equal,
let's go with. You could be interesting but I
may not have won that battle but he was open to that conversation
and I am not afraid of having those conversations with
Creatives. And if all things are equal, why
not be more inclusive? Yeah absolutely.
So it sounds like from what you're describing.
There's definitely like a power structure that goes on in terms
of like any process of how people get casted and it seems
like your role is really like more.
Like the at an advocate. Absolutely.
Yeah that kind of like us and sometimes actors don't realize
and this is where, you know, I don't think actors realize how
much we are advocating for them and how much we are trying to
Champion them from behind the scenes, in a very different way.
I had a friend who was like, I need to book something the next
30 days, or I'm going to get deported.
And I was working on a Nickelodeon show, that's not
really his Vibe, but there was like, there is this role?
It's a co-star like we're like in, he's not a co-star.
He was just the lead of a movie that had been at if, but I was
like, maybe I can like grease those Wheels to help you.
So you booked something so you don't get deported and then His
reps were like no, he's offer only and I'm like, there's no
way I'm getting him an offer for this.
I get it. He's a co-star but like You
know? And so it's like people don't I
advocate for actors all the time.
I just think that for a lot of actors casting is also the face
of the industry. And so, while it's not our
fault, it's easier to blame us because we're the tangible thing
in front of them. As opposed to the many, many
processes that it could happen. Yeah.
It seems like it would be really easy to like, conflate casting
with the reason I did or did not get cast, like you said, very
much so, and especially for talking like, Round.
We are looking for. Are you the right Vibe?
Are you the right? You know, person that is this
role. Are you in this wheelhouse?
Are you this person? And so so many actors like, oh,
I flubbed this line, I said, Tuesday, instead of Wednesday,
I'm like, nobody ever is saying, you know, they were really good,
but they said Tuesday and not Wednesday, so we can hire them.
Like, that doesn't happen. We're not sitting there, and I
dition isn't a checklist to making sure you got everything.
It's like, are you the right Vibe?
Are you Oh this person and I think so many actors want to
find a reason to to say oh I didn't get it.
So if you need to say it's because you flubbed that line if
sure. But like that's not it.
That's not the reason why because it's also not realistic
unsaid on set we would just you know do like do a pickup or do
it in a Dr? Who knows, maybe we're not even
on you for that so we can pull the audio from one of your other
takes like an actual like filming situation.
It doesn't matter if level line. We just Pick it up, right?
Then so auditions are a little bit different and so it's like I
think actors need to really grasp that as well.
Like learning how to audition is a skill in itself.
Yes it's difficult but I love that you said the Jen I believe
he worked with always brought in females for male roles years
ago. At least I feel like there's so
many like mail heavy shows especially in theater as well
and but there's so many females. So I just I like that is
changing, but do you feel like shows are just trying to check
boxes? So they're like diverse.
I definitely feel like everything every show is
different but I do feel like there are some shows where
inclusivity and representation and authenticity is built into
the DNA of the show. And I think that's great and
your and they're doing a lot of that.
And I think those shows are sort of pressuring other shows to
kind of get with the times. So this might be my
controversial opinion, but if a show or a network was doing 0%
of that before and now they're doing five percent and it feels
checkbox E, I think that is Step in the right direction because
then the hope is they do that enough and they see success that
they then want programming to feel organic because there's
been a lot of shows that I watch a Michael.
That feels, that feels like. Oh, last minute, let's add on
this layer. Yeah, but I and so I do feel
that some shows can come across that way, but I think in the
grand scheme of things, it's getting them to do it and
eventually they're just going to do it.
And then maybe that 5% will move to 10%.
Maybe, we'll move it to, you know. 5% and like it.
We're moving towards an eventual goal.
So I think that that's exciting but there's a lot of times when
it feels check boxy and I think it's just because we're in this
growth period and that eventually it will even out.
I hope. Yes.
Like a transition phase basically.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just sick of hearing that.
Oh, there's the token gay person and like it's my dad.
My dad always says this. I'm like well it's good that
there's a Julie this representation no matter what
I'm like can you can just stop talking as long as they don't
kill them off and where that's where I feel like shows that do
it. Well, it doesn't feel check,
boxy and there are some shows where does feel checkbox in the
hope is like creatively. They get to a place where it
feels organic. But yeah, there are definitely
shows where I feel that way too, but I would prefer the
representation because it was forced, then no representation.
Tatian. Exactly.
Yeah. Sometimes it does feel like
they're trying on a new like, a new outfit that doesn't that
exactly fit them yet. But that's a good.
That's a really good perspective.
Thank you for that course. A lot of people like to
complain. Yeah, especially on Twitter.
Yeah. But you you Casting for best
foot forward before. But can you tell us a little
more about the process of casting?
Yeah, so we, you know, we got the script we were, you know,
talking about it, we so what we did is we worked, we put
together traditional breakdown, like we do for every role of
like the characters male, you know, eleven to eleven to
thirteen any ethnicity, you know, limb different actors are
encouraged to submit and then here, Here's the blurb about his
personality and then what we did is we created a couple of
graphics for like a flyer and it was posted on Instagram and
Twitter and sort of spread amongst communities.
And then there were certain researches, we did a bunch of
research on certain organizations and like summer
camps, that cater to the limb different Community.
We've reached out to them and said, hey, will you share this?
It with your membership, the show is based off of Josh
sundquist and a book that he wrote.
So Josh is very well known in the limb different community and
he's very funny and has a lot of followers.
So he also posted the flyer. And so it just sort of like went
out and it became a real Grassroots community.
And then they would reach out to me.
And I would sort of walk them through the process and hold
their hand on, how to audition, and what to do.
And I think we had probably a couple hundred kids In addition,
we narrowed it down to our top three.
Then we hired an acting coach, to work with the kids and do a
couple of sessions and work on the audition material.
And then in combination with us, working with the kids, and the
recommendation of the acting coach, we sort of identified
our, our Top Choice, and then we put him with an agent.
So that way, the agent could negotiate his deal.
Because I would never want to throw, you know, a parent to
just figure it out with with apple be a, they would get so
overwhelmed. So yeah, we set him up with an
agent and then she sort of took the veal and then he closed and
then I searched for the rest of the family.
It's not typical, right? Like you don't bring in acting
coaches for kids. It's only because Yeah, because
he's these kids, none of them were actors you know necessarily
by it wasn't like Logan was doing community theater and
acting and had infrastructure already.
He was just you know regular preteen boy who plays soccer and
baseball and like just did this on a whim.
So there was a level of. Can he take adjustments?
Can he, you know really handle? What what we're going to need
from him. And Logan was great.
He was super, super good in the show and I'm hoping we get a
second season. Isn't everybody?
Yeah, we're waiting on so many things.
He gets Seasons or rejuvenate, so, to piggyback, a little bit
off of the best foot forward and the auditioning and casting
really. So, in that project, essentially
a, the character that the actor matched the actor, in terms of
like, live, Experience for that particular role.
Why is it important to cast people who have the lived
experience for those particular roles?
Does I think a lot of it? Yeah I mean I think a lot of it
comes down to a there's just enough authenticity that's
there, you know. I think one of the great things
about acting is like the magic if like what if I was this.
And I do think that acting allows people to pretend to be
other people and sort of experience different walks of
life and I think that's Anything that's wonderful with What
actors can do and how they can evolve and and shape-shift.
But I think that when you're dealing with something to wear
them, being limb, different is so Central to the experience
into the story that were telling that it's about opportunity to
limb different Community. Doesn't get as much opportunity
as people who aren't Lim different and so giving that
Community the opportunity to portray themselves when again
that identity is so crucial to it, you know, it's I think that
when when them being whatever minority that it is is Central
to the character that it behooves Productions to be
authentic because they have that lived experience where it's real
and they haven't been getting the opportunity.
If it's something where like oh they just happen to be then I
think that's like gravy but not necessarily required.
Absolutely makes sense, especially for this project
totally makes sense and it's cute.
Like I know it's a kids and family show but like I watched
it I watch the whole season and I think that it's it's
definitely you know a little bit more elevated because it's on
Apple and apple is like Prestige and I just think that it's a
different kind of family show that you see.
And there were just so many wonderful actors in it.
And so I was so excited to see everybody, like, kind of come
together and so I definitely think People should stream it on
Apple. Okay, yes, everybody goes
treatment. Season 2.
Gotta get to Stew but going back to the beginning again.
When you are working as a casting assistant very
beginning. What was it?
Like learning to be in casting and you were an assisted on.
A lot of the shows I grew up with like Liv and Maddie and
stuff like that. So you did a great job.
I don't know what role you actually had in it but good job
the process for me was a lot of No, Jen would come and I just
give me a list of people or some call them like, oh, so and so
from this and so it was a lot of like, oh I need to be watching
TV, I need to be watching. What's out there?
Because that's, it's not just entertainment.
Like, that's part of my job. I need to know the actor
landscape. I need to know who's out there
and then I would look at who we were calling in, and then I
would watch our selects and I would get to know the actors
that we were calling. In for all of our projects and
getting to know them that way and the mom on my Apple show, I
met because we cast her in a pilot.
My very first year at NBC back in 2009 and so like, we're
talking, you know, over a decade later.
I'm now like circling back me like hey Joy and she auditioned
for it and like fought for the role and she really fought for
it and she booked it. Based on because we met you
know, 13 years ago. So it was a lot of like pay
attention to the people that I'm bringing in pay attention to
like why I'm choosing this person.
It's a select Force this person and then as I was there longer
than I was able to be in the room and I was able to have
opinions or I was at least ask my opinion.
I sort of gave my two cents on how I interpreted some people
and then you just sort of keep doing it and I paid a lot of
attention to McNamara. When Jen was on maternity, leave
Marcia to bonus came in and covered her maternity leave.
And so really watching Jen and Marsha and how they interact
with actors and why they're responding to certain people
versus others. And then when you get more
involved also understanding the, the Dynamics of like we talked
about earlier the politics. Oh, this actor was on an NBC
show before and BC wants to try to find them something new.
So maybe be, we spend a little bit of extra time with them
because, you know, our bosses are going to want to know how
they did and if they were good. So it's like learning how to
navigate all of that and just like, seeing how they worked
with actors and how they Champion.
People like that is, sort of, I had really great role models to
look up to, to sort of follow in their footsteps.
And so I'm just trying to emulate them as best I can.
Is that why? When somebody is like on a
network show any channel, they always show up in a bunch of
other shoes are like thank you. I think there's a lot of like
when when a team like somebody they want to keep them employed
and they want to keep them in the family because there's also
a level of like well if you know it's terrible to sounds.
Well if we own them the nobody else can have them.
Yeah absolutely. We want to keep you happy and we
want to keep you employed. And look, I say this, you know,
for the most part people who do that like generally have to be
like nice to work with and fun to be around as if you're not.
People aren't going to want to jump through those Hoops for you
like no one's. I always had like no one's above
getting hit by a bus like any character could be written off
for any reason and you know like it's it just is what it is and
so if you're not My big thing is, I tell actors, or three
things on your control, being prepared being on time and being
fun to work with, that's it. So if you're not fun to work
with, we're not going to be bending over backwards, trying
to keep you gainfully employed. Yeah, so I think and that's
obviously not all of it. But yes, when you have somebody
who's like a star on the show, Hey Caitlin, Caitlin kind of
back when you have somebody who's like that's Carla show,
they obviously want they want to be in business with you if
they're if they're willing to do that.
And I think that that's always a good place to be in.
But yeah. Generally it's that they want to
keep them, keep them in the family, so no one else can get
them. Saving sense.
So we saw that you were script coordinator for k.c. undercover.
Can you tell us a little bit about what that entailed?
Yeah. So I had, I had done the pilot
with Suzanne Goddard Smythe and towards the end of the pilot
process Suzanne had found out from the showrunner Rob that you
know, they were, you know, Staffing up the writers room and
I had expressed interest in, you know, wanting to get in the
writers room potentially, you know, writing the script
whatever. And so I met and sort of like I
had never been a screening report for and sort of
interviewed for Rob. It's a A lot of being able to
type what people are saying as they say it and taking those
notes. And so I did that and I did it
for the entire first season. So you're in the room when your,
when the writers are like breaking story just talking
about different storylines organizing that.
And then when we go to break and episode, it's about typing up
what's being pitched. So that way I can give those
notes to the writers to then actually go.
Right what we discussed in the room.
K.c. undercover is what we call it was room written.
So all of the all of the writers we were all in the room and we
were all working on the script together.
Sometimes we would sort of Pitch Out the episode and then the
writers will break off and go right certain scenes and then we
would come back together. But for the most part,
everything was sort of done with everybody.
Some shows are like the writers will break the three or four
episodes and then the writers go off to go right there into
individual episodes and you come back case, The undercover was
little bit different and it was, you know, a traditional Disney
multicam. So it's like we had a table read
on Monday, producers run through Tuesday, Network, run through
Wednesday. And then we shot Thursday,
Friday. And during that process, you
always want to sort of be after each after the table read and
the run-throughs you've revised the script and change and you
change the jokes that didn't land or you adjust to the
network notes that you get. But then like you have another
table read on Monday. So when we went through
pre-production k.c. undercover, by the time that we started
filming, we already had six episodes ready to go.
So that gave us some cushion to break the next set of episodes
and we weren't always like scrambling or panicked, but I
think that was a that's sort of like the general.
I'm like you're in charge of like Distributing the scripts to
the cast into the crew and making sure that all the
revisions are noted. And people know what And
coordinating with casting. Hey, we're discussing this
character in episode 108 and you know, letting Suzanne, you know,
get into that. So that way, if that actor
happened, not be available, we could get ahead of it and just
coordinating because people know what's happening.
Because if we're changing the name of the of the froyo shop,
then, you know, set needs like that are set deck, needs to know
that and the art department needs to know that.
And so it's a coffee shop. Now, when not a Chinese food
restaurant, So that's a whole set of props and everything.
So it's about making sure that you're communicating with
everybody about what's happening with a particular script, or
what's happening in process. Sounds like a lot of running
around. Yeah, a lot of emails, a
communication Hub. If you will.
Yes. Did you continue with that at
all? Or was that like the only time
you did that job? It was the only time I did that
job when the season was done, I went out and tried to look for a
couple of other script coordinating jobs.
And I told myself, if I can't find one, by the time that like
My Hiatus which traditionally be over.
Then I'm going to jump back into casting and so I interviewed for
a couple of like Big Show's didn't get it and then an
opportunity with a horn and Daniel off Euro presented itself
to me as an associate casting director.
And so, I jumped on that and I so I sort of like, did a brief
one year out of casting, but then, when I and I told myself
if I go, I want the title bump from casting, assistant to
associate. Acting director.
And so that's what I was able to do when I landed at the office
and I'm currently at with a in Danielle.
We love them. Yes, choice.
So speaking of other other jobs that you've done in the past, we
also saw that you were a waiter at a restaurant on Kitchen
Nightmares here, guys, when Catelyn for this, we want to
know, want to know what that experience was like and how
often you get recognized for it before you guys so long ago.
And I didn't even know that I had seen you before.
So but I the reason that I I looked into this is because on
every Instagram post, someone else.
Is that the guy from Kitchen? I'm sorry, but we had to, I
guess, blame Instagram and Caitlyn.
Yeah, so I was in, I was in conservatory at the time and I
worked at the Black Pearl and we the show got chosen and they
were going to film for like a week and a half two weeks.
And I mean ultimately it was you either.
Either work and be on the show or you take two weeks off of
work and I was a college student living.
Paycheck-to-paycheck. Like I couldn't not work for two
weeks, so I was on the show. It was a very interesting
experience to shoot. I really loved working there.
So it was, it's, I look back at it, like a fond memory.
I definitely get more right after it.
Aired, I got I got recognized a lot.
It's been there's like some video out there that's on like
Facebook that sort of like a bunch of my clips and so it's
like I can always tell when that recirculates or when the episode
re-airs because like a lot of people from high school all of a
sudden are like finding me on Facebook and messaging me being
like, Oh my God is this you and oh my gosh.
But yeah, so I did that and then about a year later we did like a
follow-up episode where was just Gordon and I but yeah, it was it
was an interesting experience but it was I definitely did work
there and I loved working there, but we It was really just
because I couldn't take the time off of work and winning when you
look back and I think when things work out it's easier to
look back and be like, oh it all happened, the way it was
supposed to, but I would the Black Pearl was the restaurant
that closed that closed right? When the economy collapsed in 08
and that's what forced me to like, really try to like figure
stuff out. And then that's when I got the
job at NBC. So it's sort of funny how it all
kind of works out. But yeah I'm definitely on it
and it also you know it's interesting when you see what
was presented on TV versus your lived experience.
That's the thing I was like curious about.
Yeah. I was like, can I ask for
questions? Because that's the big one.
Yeah, I mean, I guess the thing with unscripted TV in depending
on the genre is they're it's us really reacting to the
circumstances that are presented to us.
Are the circumstances sometimes contrived I think so.
I don't know that for sure but I definitely think that you know
the show tries to build in moments and then how do we
really react and really respond to those moments.
But yeah I think it's also very easy for me to say I got a
really good edit even though like you know there's a moment
that's hard. Thank you.
There's a moment I'm really embarrassed by but I'm like
okay, yeah they To me that in the edit and that is what it is.
But overall I got a good edit. So I think I'm very happy with
my with my experience but there's also like a moment with
David because like he was the villain.
He was one of the bad guys and they edited a moment where he
made a joke in real life and we all laughed because we all knew
it was a joke and then in the edit they made it seem like he
meant it seriously, and on one hand it's like, okay, that's not
really what happened. But on the other it's like
they're crafting a narrative and They couldn't craft a narrative
if there wasn't enough there to make that narrative stick, but
it was, it was lovely and wonderful and Gordon is really,
you know, I his brand is being angry and mean, but he's a very
nice person. I think he's just passionate
about what he believes and when you're a regular human being out
in the world, I think we like hamper in that.
And we're just like, no. I'm in public.
I'm going to act right? And I think because it's a TV
show, like Gordon just allows himself to be.
To go there in a way that we don't normally but he was always
lovely and wonderful with me. I have a terrible photo of us
together that I took on my like Blackberry but he was here.
Yeah, it was it was a fun experience overall.
My favorite part of that episode was when, when the owners asked
what's up? And the other one said, well, he
likes Stephen. That's all I know.
He did seem to like, you soon. I could be talking, sometimes
all the time. Yes.
But will give you a break from Kitchen Nightmares cause it
might show up in your nightmares at one point.
But while preparing for this interview, I read that you wrote
a book on finance for teens, how did you go from the finance
industry to the entertainment industry?
So I'd always wanted to be involved entertainment.
I did a bunch, I do all the school plays and Community
Theater, and my very first job. I worked at a Steelers bar in
Arizona, as a busboy. And, you know, it's just like
that wasn't really the thing I wanted to do, you know?
I mean, at, at least be a server.
Like, you're making more money as a server, but I was in high
school and I was limited in my hours that I could work too, and
I was just like, complaining when I went to the bank one day
and they're like, we should apply to work here, And so he
did. So I worked for a big National
Bank from essentially the summer between my sophomore and junior
year, in high school until my second semester of first year of
college. And I really like I did well
with it. I was good at math.
Like I worked at a banking center that was inside of a
grocery store. So I was, we had extended hours
so. I worked Friday, Saturday,
Sunday, Monday. So I was still able to do drama
club and student council and all the school stuff.
And I was able to make, you know, get in my hours every week
and I just learned a lot about personal finance from that and
seeing the mistakes that a lot of people make.
And then in my senior year, In econ, we spent.
I think like three or four days on personal finance and that's
it and it was an easy topic for me because at this point I'd
work at the bank for a couple of years.
But if other people do not really has that experience of
working in a bank. And so I was seeing a lot of my
peers, make a lot of mistakes and I was always giving
unasked-for Financial advice and I was just like, oh should do
this or this? Or like my biggest thing is when
people use their debit card and they run it as credit and like,
oh this is my credit card. No, it's not.
It's your debit card. You're just running it as credit
and the differences between a debit card and a credit card are
very, very different and drastic.
And so I was always telling people and they were like oh you
know you should write a book, you should write a book trying
to learn from these experiences and then I was in my first year
in college. I had quit the bank and it was
like a really slow and I was a busboy Boy at a real house that
was like right next to my dorms and it was like a really slow
rainy Tuesday night. I think we had one table the
entire night and I was bored and so I just used a lot of like
receipt paper and just started like drafting out what it could
be what would be the chapters, what would be the subjects?
And then I just sort of like did the thing and it really covers
like the basics of banking because people learn banking
from their parents and from school.
While my school didn't really do much And luckily my parents have
a good Financial like sense, so I learn from them as well, but
not everybody has that. And so if you are a person that
has bad financial habits, and you have a child and they're
learning their financial habits from you, you're just passing it
on. And so, I really wanted this
book to come from, you know, a young person's experience about
the financial struggles that they're going to be dealing with
as a young person. So I sort of made it in that
sense of really trying to like help help.
You who don't know because some of it to me is really basic but
I again, I worked at a bank and so if I can help share the
basics of banking with people then didn't like, I don't know,
I see it's a little bit of like a public service.
No, that's amazing. Because people don't have that
as teenagers a lot at all like I know, I didn't even even though
I did take a class where they're like, here's how you write a
check. That was about the extent of it.
It's like teach us like, any of the real, the real things you
need to know. So it's awesome that I did have
a personal finance class and we learned about like the stock
market. We did like these this fake
stock game where it was like, the actual stock market was,
yeah, but I was always obsessed with money and learning as much.
Was obsessed with a credit my credit score before I could even
have one. So, by the time I got to my
first year in college, I was teaching my friends about credit
cards in the middle of our food court.
So that's it. That's the person I was.
No, I'm a bit same and then it's in the end.
It's just wild. When you're like oh I'm the one
giving them this information. Why haven't we as a society done
a better job of teaching people about it.
Like it's it really is. I think shameful and doesn't set
a lot of people up for success. Yeah, we all needed a Kaitlyn or
Stephen, especially big switching gear.
So I'm just curious if you have any favorites favorite, not that
you've casted particularly, but any out in the world favorite
lgbtq+ roles that have that have been on TV recently.
Don't lie like in say, like the last five years or
representation. I mean, I really loved.
It's a sin on HBO. Max starring Ali.
Alexander, I thought the cast was well done.
I thought the show was well done.
I was very angry at the end of it, but it really I think that
show did such a good job is sort of like Showing.
Showing a different way of tackling HIV/AIDS experience in.
Not like the way that you traditionally see it.
I really, really liked Fire Island on Hulu.
I thought that was really great with a lot of like
representation and you know with within the gay community there's
a lot of representation that is lacking and so to see a lot of
it intersectional representation and that movie I enjoyed Bros.
I think that it was really important for queer.
People to go and see them. A movie and support that movie
in theaters. And I know we didn't do as well
as others that hoped. But I think one of the things
that the gay community doesn't quite realize is like, yes, we
have a lot of acceptance of representation right now and so
I think in our own privilege, we feel like we don't need to go to
support, queer content. But if we're not going to
support queer content, it's harder.
It's going to be harder for straight people, to go and
support that content, then we're just not going to make that
content. And so, I think that it's super
important for the queer Community to support shows with
their dollars in with their views.
Otherwise, our stories aren't going to continue to be told and
we're getting to a place where it's not just the coming-out
story and it's not just the hiv-aids story.
Like we are telling complicated nuanced characters and stories
that involve Greer people. I think that's super important.
I also really loved pose, I thought that show was really
fantastic and very groundbreaking.
Yeah, there's a lot of like good queer content out there that I'm
really, really loving. I did a Hulu movie called sex
appeal and the main character has three moms and so we cast
Fortune feed stir and Margaret Cho and yes, and it was just
like lovely and wonderful and you know and then in a world
where we want talk about representation, Rebecca
Henderson's character in single trunk, female or her character
in Russian doll is a queer woman.
Owen, but like it's not about her be she just is and she's
friends with a touch Leone so it's like it.
That's a place where it's like, it's not about them being it,
they just are it. And they think that's the best
way to sort of, like, how you can, how it all fits in, because
it's not about them. That they just happened to be
that. And that's where I think it
feels natural and organic and real.
So yeah. So those are, those are a few of
my favorites. So, are there any that you think
didn't do it? Well recently, better.
Harmful in any way or just under way. um, I don't know, it's
always kind of like, annoying where I come from.
Like, I watch something. You're like, oh, that person
straight. Cool, telling our story.
But I know it's a complicated, you know, balance of star power
and right for the role. And look.
I've seen straight people play gay really well.
So, you know, it's all that. I don't think there's anything,
I would pinpoint specifically, but I'm sure there's stuff out
there that I like I've rolled my eyes at and then I just go.
Oh, Well like, you know, at a certain point I'm not going to
keep really, I'm not going to rail against the show because
ultimately, the first step is it's at least a queer story
being told. That's, that's important.
So Just like there wasn't any gay person available for that
role, not in the world. There's no gate with no more gay
people that are acting in the world, but I think that like a
juice try to step back and appreciate that.
At least a queer Stories being told and I'm like, alright, cool
now. And also, it's about progress,
not Perfection. So you know, let's let's work
towards that and I and I appreciate that were, you know,
that were pushing towards it. You have anything break?
No, go go. I have a question about Disney.
So historically, they're always like, not representative at all
like don't talk about the LGBT community but recently we've
seen that change like, of course you can sit and emac and you
help or you did cast zombies three with Terry who mhm.
Do you see them being more open to these stories and casting?
These people, I definitely do you know, that one of the things
that Gary mentioned this at a dinner about IndyMac, was that
he told Terry or showrunner. That like, essentially Disney
has been operating. The example, he was like, he's
been operating in at like, if you imagine, they're operating
in a circle. So, as long as she keeps one
foot in the sir, Circle. The other foot can be outside of
the circle and so that there's like progress in that respect.
And then, for Zombies 3, it was very much a concerted effort
that they wanted the, the head alien to be someone who is trans
or non-binary. They were like, if we can't find
it, we are open to anybody from the lgbtq community but we
really want someone to we really want this character to be trans
or non-binary and so that was our goal.
But again, like I saw a whole bunch of people that were in the
umbrella and I was very happy that we were able to get Terry.
I thought Terry is it? I think they are fantastic.
I thought they were great in the movie and I was a little nervous
because Kira the other one of the other zombies alongside Matt
Cornett. She's queer.
And so I was no but we all loved her and I was nervous that they
were going to say well you already have your Character
we're not having to and luckily they didn't Kira was the best
person especially with Terry and Matt like the three of them just
had the right chemistry and so we were so for me I'm like oh
great I was able to cast two people from my community in
these three roles. So yeah I think they're
definitely more open to it. I think there's a level of just
like things are shifting societally.
After we did zombies IO Davis took over as the CEO of Disney.
Channel. She's a new generation and so I
think that they are open to exploring it because they're
lgbtqia kids are were there around.
And so I think that like being able to speak to that is
important for them. They think they realize that,
you know, we're not going anywhere and so it's worth it to
embrace that community. Have you seen that frequently
where they're like, oh, you have already won?
This type of person you already have.
You can't have another one. I mean Justin no.
So and to be fair, nobody ever said that at Disney, like I was
just nervous that they were going to say that because, you
know, just as a gay person you get nervous at like, people
like, oh, it's too much. But I mean, there's definitely
been okay. Like my example, a different
example, which I think kind of addresses the question on and
emac, we throughout the series, we cast a couple of officers.
And it just so happened that, like, all the officers that I
hired Word where women and so in the third season there was
another cop and and Disney was like, you need to hire a man for
this because like there are men on the police force in this town
too. So like so there's that
sometimes we will take a bird's eye view and be like, what do we
have? What don't we have, you know, to
try to like make sure that we're kind of covering all of our
bases. So, I've usually only had that
conversation in that capacity of just making sure we aren't
forgetting about somebody. Or a community but I've never.
I've never had a direct like, no, there's already a queer
person here. So you can't have another one.
So, at least not expressly, at least not with me and maybe
people don't, don't want to have that conversation with me
because they know that I would clap back.
And so maybe they, you know, just just give in I love it and
I love you was bound. The I was bound to say at some
point she was so it's pretty much all the questions we have.
Even though we can ask you things all like for hours and
hours. But hmm.
Do you have any final words for our listeners at home before you
wrap everything up? Register to vote, please vote in
your local state and federal elections.
I think that the power of the people really spoke in the
midterm elections, I think it's very important to vote.
So everybody should vote. If your vote did not matter.
People wouldn't be trying to get you to not vote.
So bad. If you're an actor or a creative
remember to keep in find the joy and the fun in what you're
doing. Know that when you walk into a
room the casting director wants you to be it, you make our jobs
easier if you are it because then I don't have to keep
looking for it. And remember to have fun, be
prepared. Be on time.
Be fun to work with. That's the only thing in your
control and yeah, just be kind to one another Very good advice.
It's something that we s all that, but so thank you for
talking with us today. We really appreciate it and we
loved getting to know you and your job a little better and to
everyone listening or watching, make sure to check out Stevens
projects like best foot forward, which is streaming on Apple, go
do it right now. People watch the rest of this,
but anyway, we'll see you next time.
Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you.
And with that, we've been big gay energy, if you liked this,
episode check out all of our other episodes on whatever
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lesbian Jesus.